Israel’s Purging of Christians From the Holy Land and the Plot to Keep Americans From Noticing

How does Israel treat Christians? We spoke to one whose family has lived there since Jesus. His story is shocking. Dr. Fares Abraham, a Palestinian-American born in Bethlehem, is the founder of Levant Ministries. Prior to launching his ministry work, he served as a consultant and senior trainer to Fortune 500 companies and U. S. government agencies in Washington, D. C. Follow him on Instagram and X @faresabraham or visit his website at faresabraham.com to learn more about his work. Paid partnerships with: Hallow prayer app: Get 3 months free at https://Hallow.com/Tucker Cowboy Colostrum: Get 25% off your entire order with code TUCKER at https://cowboycolostrum.com Black Rifle Coffee: Promo code "Tucker" for 30% off at https://www.blackriflecoffee.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:30Tucker Carlson?

  There's something about true things that just sound different. When you hear something that's true, there's a different pitch, or tone, or vibration. It's kind of hard to describe. But when someone says something true, even if you don't exactly understand what it means, it sticks with you. The truth rings differently from lies.

• 0:55Tucker Carlson?

  And recently, for a lot of different reasons, mostly because of the pressure being exerted on our society, you're hearing a lot of lies, but you're also hearing a lot of true things. And some of them are about the nation of Israel. And they're obvious things, like, does the United States have an actual interest in supporting Israel unequivocally? Is Israel really our closest ally? Is there a good reason for this? Why are so many members of Congress taking money from a foreign government lobby? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. These are all true things. They point to the truth. They are questions that evoke true answers. And the response to this has been very, very telling.

• 1:40Tucker Carlson?

  The response has been shouting and screaming accusations. It has not been engagement. Almost nobody on the other side of the debate has said for sure, "Let me calmly explain why Israel's our greatest ally, and we should, say, fund the killing in Gaza. Here's why it's good for the United States to spend this much money on Israel's, well, at this point, seven simultaneous wars. A seven-front war. We're paying for it. Why is that a good idea for the United States? How is it morally justifiable? And what's the purpose of this exactly? Is it really to defend the country, or is it to expand its territory? No one will answer those questions.

• 2:19Tucker Carlson?

  And that is why, simply, you're hearing this very loud conversation about antisemitism, which all of a sudden is everywhere. It's America's biggest problem. Well, there is, of course, antisemitism, and it's wrong. It's always wrong to hate people for their blood. There's no question about that. But is antisemitism really America's biggest problem? Well, no, it's not. It's not even in the top 100 biggest problems, bad as it is. You're hearing about it as a way to shut down truthful, honest questions. And that's, of course, the dynamic, and it's very clear to anybody who's paying attention.

• 2:58Tucker Carlson?

  The problem with this dynamic is that it can inspire a lot of anger, and, in fact, a lot of hate. People are getting madder and madder and madder on this topic, on both sides, and you have to wonder why that is. Why doesn't someone just stand up and say, "Let's have a reasonable discussion about this. Let's just lay it out there in non-emotional terms, non-hateful terms, without attacking an entire group of people, any group of people, whether it's the Jews, or the Muslims, or the Christians. Let's just slow down and be rational about this." Why is no one doing that? Well, it's possible that there are some people in this conversation, maybe on both sides, who want to inspire hate.

• 3:40Tucker Carlson?

  And that's not a good idea for anyone, for this country, for Christians, it's forbidden. Christians are not allowed to hate people. They understand that it's against God's law. It's also the fastest way to corrode your soul and turn you into a monster, and of course, you don't want that. So how do you have a rational conversation about what's best for your country without becoming hateful yourself or inspiring hate in other people? We've really thought a lot about this. Don't become what they call you. That's our number one imperative, at least on this show. They call you a hater, don't become one. So we're trying. So we're doing a couple of things. The first is, we're flying to Jerusalem to interview Mike Huckabee.

• 4:21Tucker Carlson?

  Mike Huckabee is, of course, the American ambassador to Israel, someone I've known for over 30 years and always liked, and also a Baptist preacher of some kind, but certainly a prominent Baptist religious figure, also US ambassador, and someone who has...

• 4:42Tucker Carlson?

  Views that I just don't agree with at all on questions of American foreign policy and also on questions of theology. He's a Christian, famous Christian Zionist and a famous proponent of neocon foreign policy. I disagree with both. However, it seems like of all the people you could talk to, maybe Mike Huckabee is a guy you could talk to in a reasonable way, in a calm way, without shouting or hatred. By the way, if you want a picture of what hell itself is like, it's shouting and hatred. It's a large group of people screaming, you know, calling for violence. That is literally a picture of hell and don't live in it if you can help it. We don't want to. So maybe Huckabee is

• 5:24Tucker Carlson?

  the guy to begin a reasonable conversation about what's best for the United States and what's true about Christian theology. So we're going to try, we're flying to Jerusalem. Difficult to do, not without risk, but we're doing it because we really believe that the direction that this conversation is moving is bad. It's bad for everybody. It's bad for the country and it's bad for our souls. So maybe that's a start toward making it better. And the second thing we're really trying to do is to speak to Christians in the Middle East about the situation in the Middle East. And maybe not accidentally, that is the one group you almost never hear from in the United States. There are an awful

• 6:05Tucker Carlson?

  lot of particularly Protestant evangelical ministers, leaders, talking about Israel, Israel, as they often call it, and what Christians are supposed to think about it, what they're required to think about it, what the US government and the US military should do to aid Israel, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And those are almost always framed in terms of the West versus Islam, you know, Israel, United States versus the Muslims. Okay. But there's almost never any mention of the fact that the world's oldest Christian community.

• 6:39Tucker Carlson?

  Is in that area, in the Levant, in Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, and Syria, that part of the Middle East that is not so far away. It's on the Mediterranean. And is of course, the birthplace of Christianity, of Jesus himself. And there have been Christians there for 2,000 years uninterrupted. And we know that both from the historical record and from DNA tests. So if you're interested in Christianity, if you are a Christian, one of the first questions you ought to ask is, how are Christians in the Middle East doing? And the political lines have changed, of course. And after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, at the end of the First World War, that whole area was carved up into different countries, nation-states,

• 7:23Tucker Carlson?

  run by colonial powers, France and England. And they became Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, then after 1948 with the creation of Israel, Israel, and then after 67, the West Bank. I mean, it's been carved up over thousands of years by many different empires. But that region has remained the same, and its population has remained remarkably stable. And the Christian population has never left. These are not converts, these are the original Christians. Doesn't mean they're right about everything, but it means if you want to know what's actually happening, maybe you should talk to them. And two, it's great shame, it's great shame. The American evangelical community, such as it is, or its leaders,

• 8:02Tucker Carlson?

  have been very resistant to talking to Middle Eastern Christians, or even to thinking about Middle Eastern Christians and the effect of American policy on those people. But we think it's really important for two reasons. One, it's just inherent. Like, what about the Christians is a fair question for Christians to ask. In fact, they should be required to ask that question. And second, because sincere Christians are not allowed to hate, or be antisemitic, or hate all Muslims, or hate all anybody, or hate at all, it's forbidden by their religion, talking to them directly.

• 8:40Tucker Carlson?

  Is a great way to de-escalate what is by design becoming a tribal war. There is no reason for any conversation about American foreign policy to devolve into Jews versus everyone else, or everyone versus Jews, or any of this stuff. It's all awful. It's all a dead end. It will end in violence. That's obvious. And then censorship and, and all the things that you don't want in your country. So like, don't go there. And we've really tried not to go there. And of course, they've called this show antisemitic, Nazi, and all this stuff. And all of their paid shills have joined in on this. But we still have to resist becoming what they call us.

• 9:24Tucker Carlson?

  That is our job, period, as Americans and as Christians, to keep the hate out of our hearts and to stay reasonable. And talking to Middle Eastern Christians, sincere Christians, is a really important way to keep the conversation exactly where it should be. So if you spend the evening at my house, you are guaranteed to find yourself in a conversation about the Hallow app. We talked about it this morning. It is the best prayer app ever. This Lent, Hallow's Pray 40 Challenge invites users to step out of the noise of everyday life and dive into something much deeper, the parable of the prodigal son. It's a story about a man who leaves home, wastes everything, hits rock bottom, and then

• 10:08Tucker Carlson?

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• 12:40Tucker Carlson?

  The best. So with that introduction...

• 12:44Tucker Carlson?

  I want to introduce you to Fares Abraham, who is a Christian minister. He leads a ministry here in the United States, who is originally from a town called Bet Sahur, which is right outside Bethlehem, birthplace of Jesus. Bet Sahur, as you're going to hear him explain in a minute, is the place where the shepherds saw, and the wise men saw the angels announce Jesus's birth in the Gospels. And so he is literally from that town. It is a Palestinian village in what we call the West Bank, the West Bank of the Jordan River, that was part of Jordan until 1967, but has always been there. And it is a majority, about 80% Christian village. And it's disappearing. The Christians are leaving.

• 13:29Tucker Carlson?

  And there's not a lot of debate about why they're leaving. They're not leaving primarily because of the Muslims. They're leaving because of Jewish settlers moved into the town by the Israeli government with funding from the United States, from a lot of Christians, by the way, in the United States, not just Jews, Christians in the United States, paying for these settlers to come and are driving out the Christian population. There is no rational justification for this. There's no moral justification for it. It's an atrocity. And it is almost never spoken about in non-political, honest ways. And this man came to our attention some months ago. We've talked to him extensively. We think he is a truly decent man,

• 14:14Tucker Carlson?

  who has no hate in his heart. You can judge for yourself. But no matter what side of this conversation you're on, and particularly if you're a Christian Zionist, and by the way, go ahead and remain one if you like, but you should know that your views, and in some cases, your money, is funding the displacement and the murder of the oldest Christian community in the world. So with that, here's Fares Abraham, originally from Bet Sahur in the West Bank. Thanks for doing this. So you are from a Christian village outside Bethlehem, birthplace of Jesus, correct?

• 14:53Speaker 04

  Yes, from Bet Sahur.

• 14:56Tucker Carlson?

  Bet Sahur. So what is Bet Sahur?

• 14:59Speaker 04

  So first of all, thank you for having me here.

• 15:01Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, my gosh, of course.

• 15:02Speaker 04

  And I wish I never had to do this interview, to be honest with you. But I feel compelled, I feel a sense of urgency, because the little town that I come from is under existential threat. And let me say, I come here as a Christian, first and foremost, very proud Christian, and I'm Palestinian-American Christian. And I'm very proud of this country and for what this country stands for and for the great opportunity that I was given as a Palestinian. This is my new homeland. America gave me education, work, and then later I got married, I met the woman of my dreams here, who, you know, my wife comes from Gaza, and we met here in the States.

• 15:44Speaker 04

  We started a family, we pursued the American dream, and I'm so grateful and so thankful. But I'm here because I feel that the little town of Beethahur is really under imminent danger that if nothing happens, if we don't do anything about it, there will be no more Christians living in Beethahur today. So it's a Christian-majority town, and it's known for the shepherd's fields. In Luke Chapter 2, when the angel of the Lord appeared to the shepherds who were tending to their flocks, the angel appeared to them and pronounced the greatest event that ever happened in history, which is the birth of the Messiah in next-door town, in town, little town.

• 16:29Tucker Carlson?

  So it says they were right outside town, and they were, that's where they were.

• 16:32Speaker 04

  Absolutely. So this is, this happened in Beethahur, and if you go to Beethahur today, the shepherd field is there, the people are there, and the angel appeared also with a chorus of angelic halls singing, glory to God in the highest, peace on earth, and great joy to great man. Now, the significance of Beethahur is that God chose this little town, the town of the shepherds, to announce the birth of Jesus. God didn't choose the spiritual elites and the religious institutions in Jerusalem.

• 17:05Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 17:06Speaker 04

  And He did not choose the powerful politicians, military in Rome, but He chose to announce the birth of a Savior. In a town called Beethahor. And when the shepherds went to Bethlehem, they saw baby Jesus. They came back rejoicing and they were the first evangelists that told the world about the birth of Jesus. God with us. It was in the, it was in those fields where they were tending their flocks. They were poor, they were marginalized. They were ordinary men and women who just happened to be there and God chose them to be there. So Beethahor takes pride and it's not that we are privileged and better than anybody else.

• 17:51Speaker 04

  But that's the essence of the Christmas story that God gives hope to the people in the margins first. God's grace reaches those people first. And the town of Beethahor takes very pride of this heritage and this legacy.

• 18:06Tucker Carlson?

  How long has it been majority Christian?

• 18:08Speaker 04

  It's been always majority Christian.

• 18:10Tucker Carlson?

  So for like thousands of years?

• 18:11Speaker 04

  Since the time of Jesus. We, you know, the town of Beethahor is the early descendants of the first Christmas story. And they have maintained uninterrupted, continuous presence since the day of the announcement of the birth of Jesus.

• 18:28Tucker Carlson?

  That's amazing. How long has your family been there?

• 18:31Speaker 04

  Generations. We always jock around like, we go back thousands of years. Unfortunately, we don't have a family tree that could trace back to the time of Jesus. But the people have always lived there. The people have always farmed their lands.

• 18:48Tucker Carlson?

  So you're not a new convert to Christianity?

• 18:50Speaker 04

  We're not newcomers. We don't come from neighboring countries. We're not, we're not converts. We're not newcomers. We're not immigrants. We're an indigenous people of the land.

• 19:01Tucker Carlson?

  Christian people?

• 19:02Speaker 04

  Christian Palestinians have a unique story to tell.

• 19:05Tucker Carlson?

  What's interesting is that over that 2,000 year period, you know, a lot has happened. A lot of different people have ruled that area. Of course, originally the Romans.

• 19:13Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 19:14Tucker Carlson?

  2,000 years ago was the Romans and then. Then, of course, you move up from Arabia, Islam starts.

• 19:24Tucker Carlson?

  And then you have the Crusades kind of flip it over and then you have it flip back and it becomes the Ottomans and then Muslims run out of Istanbul, Constantinople, Turks, and then you have the Brits and now you have the Israelis. So during all that time, that village remained Christian, but you're saying now, under Israeli rule, because it is ruled by the Israelis, correct?

• 19:49Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 19:50Tucker Carlson?

  It's in danger of becoming extinct?

• 19:53Speaker 04

  I call Palestinian Christians empire survivors.

• 19:56Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 19:57Speaker 04

  We have survived empires, armies came and left, rulers came and left.

• 20:03Tucker Carlson?

  A lot of them.

• 20:04Speaker 04

  Identity changed, language changed, culture has been shaved by those empires, but the people have always remained there. The church has always been open to worship, has always maintained a gospel witness. And this is my deepest concern, that if nothing has happened, if we don't do anything about it, there will be no more Christians in the Holy Land.

• 20:30Tucker Carlson?

  So they remain there from, you know, 33 AD until 1967, and then in 1967, when this area is annexed by the government.

• 20:41Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 20:42Tucker Carlson?

  The real threat begins, that's what you're saying?

• 20:45Speaker 04

  Yes. Israel has pursued one strategy, Tucker, over decades, which is take as much Palestinian land as possible and keep as few Palestinians on the land as possible. This has been their strategy. It has worked for them because they're constantly taking Palestinian land within, we're talking about, not proper Israel, but we're talking about 1967, when they captured West Bank, East Jerusalem, and then Gaza. They have been taking land, they have been building settlements there, and this is threatening the local population, especially it comes at a heavy price. So that has been the policy for decades,

• 21:28Speaker 04

  and it has worked for them because it's almost near completion now. If you look at Bethlehem, the governor of Bethlehem, the district of Bethlehem, it is surrounded by Israeli settlements. And it's actually, if you look it up, the Bethlehem ring, it's actually a thing. It's a ring of settlements all encircling every town, every Palestinian village. And they choose these specific lands strategically on hilltops, taking water resources, building walls around these settlements, building new roadblocks, building new checkpoints, building new security measures, they call it, motion sensors, electric barbed wires.

• 22:13Speaker 04

  And it comes at a really deep expense, at the expense of the local population.

• 22:17Tucker Carlson?

  So when, so you grew up there?

• 22:20Speaker 04

  Yes, I grew up in the town of Beethahor.

• 22:23Tucker Carlson?

  What was that like? What was your experience of the Israeli government growing up as a Christian there?

• 22:29Speaker 04

  Well, I lived through the first Intifada. And we lived next to the YMCA in Beethahor. There is actually a YMCA in Beethahor. And down the road from us, there was an Israeli bypass road only.

• 22:46Tucker Carlson?

  What does that mean?

• 22:47Speaker 04

  It means whenever they build settlements, they build those roads that are only accessible to settlers, which these roads are, connect the entire settlements together and they are directly connected to proper Israel, so they can, easy of movement for the settlers to go.

• 23:05Tucker Carlson?

  What do you mean for settlers? You mean you're not allowed on them?

• 23:08Speaker 04

  No, absolutely not. Some roads in Area B of the West Bank, Palestinians are allowed on them, like between the roads of, between Bethlehem and Hebron, or Bethlehem and Jericho. There are some, few, very limited roads that you can't, I mean, what are you gonna do? We have to share the roads. But... In many of these roads Palestinians are not allowed to.

• 23:30Tucker Carlson?

  You're not allowed?

• 23:31Speaker 04

  No.

• 23:32Tucker Carlson?

  Like as someone who's born there?

• 23:33Speaker 04

  Absolutely not. But those road, that road down the street from us, we would see settlers come and go. We would see Israeli army vehicles come and go. And one day we were playing outside.

• 23:46Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, I'm sorry, this is kind of, I mean, I've, I've been there. But it's hard, I didn't fully digest this, I guess, at the time. So how about right now? You're, you're an American, you, you live in the United States. You've been here a long time. Could you go and get on one of those roads?

• 23:59Speaker 04

  Let me explain it this way. Imagine you are in San Diego.

• 24:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 24:03Speaker 04

  And then a group of people from Mexico come to San Diego and take a piece of property.

• 24:08Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 24:08Speaker 04

  And they build fence around it. And then all of the sudden, they plant a Mexican flag on that. You know, not to say that I love Mexicans, but this is hypothetical.

• 24:19Tucker Carlson?

  I get it, but it's a country too.

• 24:20Speaker 04

  Yes, I love Mexican food too.

• 24:22Tucker Carlson?

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• 25:34Speaker 00

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• 26:34Speaker 04

  So for the sake of this analogy, imagine they come and they build fence around this property. And now it cuts your property in half and sometimes it's slice it up. So San Diego becomes fragmented. And they set up this fence around it. They take the water resources. They build walls, sniper towers. And all of the sudden, you see the Mexican army coming to protect those new settlers. And those settlers are not friendly neighbors. They're not coming to San Diego to be neighbors. They're coming to take the land from San Diego. And now, if you are a mother,

• 27:17Speaker 04

  a Christian mother who puts her children in Christian school, and your school now is behind those new roads that these Mexican settlers built. They built a new road that connects San Diego to Tijuana, across the border. And you are a mother who wants to go, who wants to drop off her kids to a school that is beyond those bypass road only. And this is not theoretical for us. This is reality. When you go to Beethahor, you will see the settlements encircling the little town, choking it.

• 28:00Speaker 04

  It's like slow suffocation. It prevents it from its natural growth. That story that I told you about the mother is actually my cousin, who takes her children, she has twins and she has a six-year-old, to the American evangelical school built in Beethahor.

• 28:20Speaker 04

  And with this new settlement they have built, they have set up a roadblock, a checkpoint, where Israelis come and man those checkpoints to protect the settlers. Now, one day, she was taking her children to school, and the Israeli army pointed guns at them, Oh, come on. Instructing them to let the kids walk across the checkpoint to make it to the school to the other side. Now, this is not an isolated incident. This is not something that happens every once in a while. The army is always present to protect the settlers. So, my cousin told her six-year-old, "You're strong. You can do this.

• 29:03Speaker 04

  And you can, we can walk through it. The teacher on the other side is going to receive you." As soon as she walked, she held her head up high. She passed through the soldier, and she fainted at the feet of the school staff. Now, this is, brings a lot of psychological trauma. It brings a lot of nightmares. That's what Christian families in Beethahor are experiencing. Now, I remember I told you about this, our home back in Beethahor. It's not too far from the school. It's not too far from the new settlement they are building in Beethahor. And down the road is the Israeli bypass road, which is only for settlers and Israeli armed vehicles.

• 29:48Speaker 04

  In 1990, we watched settlers come and go. There was an Israeli army vehicle that stopped. And we saw, I was ten at that time. I saw an Israeli soldier stepping out of the vehicle, pointing a rifle at us, and he starts shooting at us. At you? We were a bunch of kids. I mean, my siblings, my mother was there and some of my cousins. He starts shooting live ammunition at us. And then my mother rushed us all into the door. She was the last one to get in. She caught a bullet in the back.

• 30:23Tucker Carlson?

  Your mother?

• 30:24Speaker 04

  Yes, my own mother, who loves the Lord and he loves Jesus. And exit wound, she dropped.

• 30:30Tucker Carlson?

  Come on.

• 30:31Speaker 04

  She dropped on the floor, pool of blood. I heard to the back door, called my dad, my uncle, who was a physician, put pressure on the wound, took her to the hospital.

• 30:44Tucker Carlson?

  You saw this happen?

• 30:45Speaker 04

  This in front of my eyes, my own mother.

• 30:49Tucker Carlson?

  I'm sorry, I should say, we've been talking off camera before we started this interview and I didn't know the story. It's not in my interview notes and I detected no bitterness whatsoever in anything that you said. I don't know how.

• 31:01Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 31:02Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry. So you're just shocking me? I didn't expect to hear that.

• 31:05Speaker 04

  Palestinian Christians take the Sermon of the Mount very seriously.

• 31:10Tucker Carlson?

  Apparently.

• 31:12Speaker 04

  When Jesus comes and he elevates our thinking, when he elevates our outlook on life, when he takes morality to a whole new standard, when he said, "You have heard, do not kill." But I tell you, if you look at your brother and you call him Raka, Aramaic word for fool or stupid, you just have committed the murder.

• 31:35Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 31:36Speaker 04

  And when he said, and you remember the context, Jesus was talking to a Jewish audience who were under ruthless Roman occupation.

• 31:44Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 31:45Speaker 04

  They were persecuted, they were discriminated against. It was very brutal to live under the Roman occupation. But Jesus is telling his followers, "Love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you." This is something that we have grow up, we have grown up understanding the very essence and the meaning of this Sermon of the Mount.

• 32:10Tucker Carlson?

  Wow. I'm sorry, I've totally derailed your story because I'm just shocked. I really didn't know that was coming. So you're 10 years old, you watch your mother get shot by this. Okay, so many questions. Why did he do this? Do you know?

• 32:24Speaker 04

  This has been just random.

• 32:28Speaker 04

  They do this not just to Palestinian Christians. I mean, that has been the policy. It's they do it to the Muslims. They do it to any Palestinians.

• 32:36Tucker Carlson?

  Did she survive?

• 32:37Speaker 04

  She did. Miraculous. It was the bullet was just millimeters away from the spine.

• 32:44Tucker Carlson?

  It was an American rifle, I assume.

• 32:46Speaker 04

  Who knows?

• 32:46Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 32:47Speaker 04

  We don't know the soldier.

• 32:48Tucker Carlson?

  556 round, right. Okay, so that's my next question. So, so some soldier, your mother wasn't throwing rocks at him or screaming for jihad or anything?

• 32:56Speaker 04

  We were just playing in front of the house. We were just kids playing.

• 33:01Tucker Carlson?

  Not just. How can you live in this country and listen to people who have no idea what they're talking about?

• 33:06Speaker 04

  So this is, this is the real threat of the new settlements. Okay, it's not just taking Christian land. It's not acquiring and taking by force the resources of the land, of Christian land, who lived there for generations.

• 33:24Speaker 04

  It's inviting violent settlers to your neighborhood. They're coming to take the land. They're coming to squeeze. They're coming to crush. They're coming to.

• 33:35Tucker Carlson?

  Why are they mad at? What did you do?

• 33:38Speaker 04

  Being born in the.

• 33:40Tucker Carlson?

  I don't understand the hate, and I certainly have been the target of it. But I don't understand. I mean, I understand why people don't like me. I'm doing interviews like this, but I don't understand why the, why would someone shoot a mother in front of her children? Like, I just don't get that. Like, what is that?

• 33:59Speaker 04

  You interviewed Bishop Hussam, and he mentioned the story, the recent story, just last month.

• 34:04Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 34:05Speaker 04

  The attack on a Christian widow. She's a Christian widow. They had a violent settler came to her property, grazing on the, on the, in the land with his cattle. And then he hits her with a stone on her head, fractures her skull, takes her to, you know, it's a, she almost lost her life. And when her son tried to defend her, the son gets arrested by the Israeli military. And then when the settlers, bunch of settlers, they showed up at the house in the presence and the full support and the complicity of the Israeli army, they knocked down the door. Her daughter was inside, Nettie Mann, and I talked to her. She drew the sign of her cross.

• 34:47Speaker 04

  And when they found out that she was Christian, you know what the settler told her?

• 34:51Tucker Carlson?

  What?

• 34:51Speaker 04

  He told her, "What are you doing here? This is not your land. You don't belong here." He said, "Go to France or go somewhere else. You don't belong here. God gave us this land." Now, this settler violence that has been on the rise, the town of Taipei where they burned centuries-old church, they burned the crops, vandalized properties, write graffitis, spitting on clergy and pastors and leaders.

• 35:23Speaker 04

  All of these atrocities are done in broad daylight. They're done without accountability, and no one is being held responsible for these atrocities.

• 35:36Tucker Carlson?

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• 36:55Speaker 00

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• 37:26Speaker 05

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• 37:31Speaker 06

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• 37:34Speaker 05

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• 37:37Speaker 06

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• 37:41Speaker 05

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• 37:45Speaker 06

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• 37:49Tucker Carlson?

  Learn more at Farmers.com. Underwritten by Farmers Truck or Fire Insurance Exchanges or Affiliates. Products not available in every state. Did I say, I was talking to my wife when I was on the road for a few weeks and I was talking to her at breakfast this morning about that interview with the Anglican Archbishop that we did on the banks of the Jordan River. And he's, we're Anglicans. We grew up in it. And the Anglican Church in the United States is, you know, it's not very Christian anymore. And I was telling her, that man, off camera, I said to him, people spit on you? And my first thought was, why don't you shoot them? Like, don't allow someone to spit. I didn't say that because I, you know, but that was my thought. Shows what a bad person I am. And he said, every time someone spits at me, I feel blessed. They spit at Jesus.

• 38:34Tucker Carlson?

  And I was telling my wife, I think Christians who live in that kind of environment, understand Christianity in a much deeper way than we do here. I think that. To hear you say that you don't feel bitterness, your mother didn't feel bitterness after being shot in front of her children for no reason?

• 38:50Speaker 04

  And this is what the gospel does. It transforms the heart.

• 38:53Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, I totally agree.

• 38:55Speaker 04

  It's, it's, yes, I want to seek justice, but in the meantime, I don't want to allow hatred to poison my soul. I don't want...

• 39:06Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, please, everyone, watch this. Rewind, watch that again. Can you say that again? I love that.

• 39:11Speaker 04

  I don't want to allow the, the atrocities and the sins that have been committed against Christians to allow bitterness to grow in our hearts.

• 39:25Tucker Carlson?

  Amen.

• 39:26Speaker 04

  Jesus provided a better way. Jesus gave us the example of forgiving and for loving our enemies. Jesus forgave the people who even crucified Him. And that's the model. That's why Christians in the Holy Land are the salt of the earth, are the light in the midst of that darkness. And if we don't preserve that gospel witness, this is the reason I decided to do this interview with you, Kotter.

• 39:53Tucker Carlson?

  And I said a prayer this morning in my sauna that you would, that God would speak through you, and He is.

• 39:58Speaker 04

  It's the gospel witness. We want to keep the message of Christ alive in the lands of its birth. We want to share the good news of the gospel with every person who is, who is traumatized, with every person who is suffering, with every child in Gaza who has lost everything. The only hope is to tell them that God loves them.

• 40:20Tucker Carlson?

  That's right.

• 40:21Speaker 04

  The only hope is to break this, the cycle of violence between the Israelis and the Palestinians is not, it's not going, I don't, you know, you, law will restrain your physical being.

• 40:36Speaker 04

  But God sets your spirit free. He sets your soul free.

• 40:40Tucker Carlson?

  Ah, you're making me emotional. No, that's totally right.

• 40:44Speaker 04

  He redeems us. And these are, these are the basic values that are lived on daily basis by Christian Palestinians. Let me tell you about my friend Salam. Salam was the only child to his family, who lived right down the street from me, closer to this Israeli high-bass road. And on February 18, 1991, a hateful Israeli settler parked his vehicle next to Salam's house, and he shot him in the head inside his house through a window, while having dinner with his family.

• 41:28Speaker 04

  A new settlement coming to town is going to pose real existential threat to everyone living there, and the Christian witness will be diminished.

• 41:42Tucker Carlson?

  So this is, this is a part it's hard to understand as an American. And let's just start a few minutes previous in the conversation. An Israeli soldier, IDF soldier, shoots your mother for no reason. Who is that soldier? Was there a trial? Did you ever hear what happened to him? I mean, these sound like dumb questions, but I'm an American. Was he punished? Like, what happened next?

• 42:04Speaker 04

  We have no idea.

• 42:08Tucker Carlson?

  So nobody from the occupation authority, from the supposedly humane Western Israeli government, ever went to your house and said, you know, we've questioned this guy, or even followed up at all?

• 42:18Speaker 04

  Absolutely not. You see, this is the issue.

• 42:21Tucker Carlson?

  They just shot your mother like an animal and then never?

• 42:23Speaker 04

  The core issue here is that there is a culture of impunity. A lot of these acts, they go unchecked.

• 42:33Tucker Carlson?

  Noticed.

• 42:34Speaker 04

  It's a culture. And that comes, it it's not insulated incidents. And just to give you numbers, okay, the Rossing Center in Jerusalem. It's an Israeli human rights organization. So in case, you know, people discredit the Palestinian testimony, Palestinian Christians, you know, we often get discredited.

• 42:52Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I've noticed, yes.

• 42:53Speaker 04

  And and it breaks on our heart when even our brothers and sisters in Christ do that.

• 42:59Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I want to ask you about that because that's where I have trouble controlling.

• 43:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I'm going to come back to the Rossing Center. They documented 111 attacks on Christians in 2024 alone. 111.

• 43:14Speaker 04

  You go to any Israeli human rights organization such as Beethalam. Peace now documenting every single incidents. And you will find a pattern that these attacks are not random. They're not, uh, they don't happen out of the blue. They're systematic. Israel has created a pervasive system. And we call it a structural pressure that they keep applying on the Christian population to push them out of their land. When I speak to Palestinian Christians in Beethahur, what they fear the most, they saw what's happening in Gaza. They have relatives in Gaza and they fear that they are next.

• 43:56Speaker 04

  It's a real danger that is pointed at Beethahur community right now. And this new settlement, and it's not the only settlements. I mean, Beethahur is surrounded by settlements and we have long history of these settlers coming and taking Palestinian lands and building those, you know, lavish settlements and they're.

• 44:18Tucker Carlson?

  But ugly, very ugly.

• 44:20Speaker 04

  You know, they they they fill up their swimming pools. They put their their green grass while Palestinian Christians, they wait for two or three weeks for a water truck to fill up their tanks on top of the roof. Giant black plastic tank that we're not allowed to even have running water.

• 44:40Tucker Carlson?

  I've seen them. Can I ask, just because I don't want anything to fall through the cracks here. Your friend who was murdered while having dinner by a settler, what happened to that settler?

• 44:50Speaker 04

  Salam mislah. We don't know who the settler was. He just stopped his vehicle, shot at him, and left. And Salam is not the only one.

• 44:58Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, may I ask, like, was there no investigation of this? No one was arrested for it?

• 45:03Speaker 04

  Nope, absolutely not. Salam is not the only one. There was another guy named Admon Ghannam. You know, back in the days, this policy used to be much, in much bigger full force. They called it home mapping. I don't know if you're familiar with home mapping.

• 45:24Tucker Carlson?

  I'm American. I don't know anything. I've been lied to about this for so long.

• 45:27Speaker 04

  So thank God for organizations like Breaking the Silence, which is a group of former IDF soldiers, and they're there sharing their stories and their experiences in the West Bank. So, home mapping is when an Israeli army decides to go into a Palestinian home for the purpose, quote unquote, of collecting intelligence. And what they usually do is they lock up the whole family in a room for a day or two, and sometimes four weeks, and they take over the house. And this usually is done to give the new soldiers some practice and training. It's called home mapping. So, when I grew up, and these are stories from my childhood,

• 46:08Speaker 04

  Admon was walking down the street when an Israeli soldier was on top of a Palestinian house roof, dropped a stone on Admon and killed him instantly.

• 46:21Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 46:23Speaker 04

  A Christian, young man, for no reason. Antoni Shomali, he was caught by an Israeli, you know, he ran away from Israeli army. For some reason, he got scared. They caught him and they shot him in a close proximity in cold blood. And I can give you stories of stories. Those are not terrorists. Those are not people who seek violence. Those are people who want to simply stay in their land.

• 46:57Speaker 04

  Work, live, have a future, live in peace. And let me tell you, highlighting the violence of the settlers does not mean we ignore the violence committed by some Palestinians. I mean, as Christians, we recognize there are some Palestinians who carry out

• 47:19Speaker 04

  attacks and inflict terror on innocent Israelis as well. And we're not going to bury our heads in sand and say, "Oh, it doesn't happen." You know, stabbing, ramming into some Israeli citizens. And as Christian Palestinian American, we condemn any attacks on any civilians. We condemn any form of violence to achieve justice. This is the very core of the Christian message. We reject violence altogether. Palestinian Christians have always extended the hands of making peace with our Jewish neighbors, with our Muslim neighbors, with everyone. We just want to live in peace, so we condemn violence at all levels. But there is a difference between when a Palestinian commits a violence

• 48:03Speaker 04

  versus when a settler commits a violence. When a Palestinian commits a violence, wrong to be condemned, not to be condoned, to killing innocent civilians, usually he or she are shot on the spot. And if they make it out alive, they get detained and they're thrown in prison. And right now, the Israeli government is really pushing hard to pass a law to legalize the death penalty in Israel for Palestinians. But anyway, he gets thrown in prison. His house, his family, his family's house gets demolished. And his family gets a security block not to travel anywhere outside town,

• 48:45Speaker 04

  collectively punishing the parents for the crime that their son or their daughter committed. Now, this is what happens. So when a Palestinian commits a crime, this happens. But when a settler commits a crime, there is an Israeli army that backs it up. There is a system that gives it impunity. And this is the grave injustice. As a Christian minister, this is why I come to your show and say, "This should not be done." Especially when Christians are supporting this without knowing the facts and the reality on the ground. This is what really breaks my

• 49:21Tucker Carlson?

  Some of them do know the facts and reality on the ground. Just and I don't think that applies to your average evangelical Christian Zionist in the United States. I don't think they have any idea. But some of their leaders know perfectly well what's happening. And I, because I know them and I know that they know.

• 49:35Speaker 04

  And they know the Christians by name and they have their data. And they know where they live.

• 49:40Tucker Carlson?

  So, and I want to get, I've, I've way too many questions for you, but thankfully we have time. But this seems like a good time to try to understand what's going on there. And I've already admitted that's where my anger lies is toward, you know, the people like me, Christians in America who are making excuses for this or, or abetting it, making it possible. What is that? Why is that happening?

• 50:05Speaker 04

  October 7th was horrific.

• 50:07Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, I agree.

• 50:09Speaker 04

  It was horrible what Hamas has done. Killing innocent civilians, kidnapping babies.

• 50:15Tucker Carlson?

  I totally agree.

• 50:16Speaker 04

  This is wrong. This needs to be condemned. And Palestinian Christians have been consistent in condemning violence to achieve justice, as I said. But the overwhelming suffering lies on Gaza right now. The disproportionate response, I was in South Africa when October, on October 7th, I was getting ready to speak at a Christian conference. Before 5,000 people in the room in Cape Town. And before I got up there, my phone start, all kind of notifications going on. And I've learned about October 7th. Immediately that night, I went on my hotel room and I recorded a video. I said, I condemn this horror.

• 51:00Speaker 04

  This is not the way we need to, we need to, we, we need to condone, we, we condemn this act of violence. But in the meantime, I said, I leaned over to my friend, my pastor friend, and I said, I am shaking because of the level of retaliation that the Israeli military is going to respond.

• 51:23Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you grew up with it, so you knew.

• 51:26Speaker 04

  My wife grew up in Gaza Baptist Church. Gaza Baptist, and not too many people know that Baptists have made it all the way to Gaza. And Gaza Baptist Church was burned, was bombed.

• 51:43Speaker 04

  There was some famine-

• 51:44Tucker Carlson?

  Gaza Baptist Church was bombed?

• 51:45Speaker 04

  Yes. Now imagine that First Baptist Church of Dallas people were bombed.

• 51:53Tucker Carlson?

  Or of Little Rock.

• 51:55Speaker 04

  I believe the whole United States Army and Marine and Military and Air Force will be going after the perpetrator.

• 52:02Tucker Carlson?

  No, maybe not. You know, but yeah, no, it would be obvious that that is a crime. I just don't understand, and I've raised this question, you know, many, many times with Christian leaders in the United States. Like, what did the Baptists in Gaza do wrong? Why are we paying to bomb their church? Do you know?

• 52:22Speaker 04

  It's not just the Baptists. It's all the Palestinian people are being collectively punished in Gaza. And what's happened in Gaza, it's really horrific atrocity that no one should be, you know, if it doesn't shake us at our core, I don't think we have any humanity-

• 52:37Tucker Carlson?

  Well, we're Americans, so we have no idea what's happened in Gaza, so why don't you tell us?

• 52:43Speaker 04

  In October, there was a bomb that killed 17 Christians. Historic church was bombed. 5th century church was bombed-

• 52:54Tucker Carlson?

  In Gaza?

• 52:54Speaker 04

  In Gaza, and killed so many Christians. There is a lady that played the piano at Gaza Baptist Church. Her name was Ilham Farah. She was an icon, music icon in Gaza. Everybody loved her. She was 84. She went to her house to check on the house, if it's still standing or not. She gets sniped, shot in the leg by an Israeli soldier. Left to bleed to death for three agonizing days. She was on the phone until her phone was dead, on one of my closest friends. He was with her on the phone. And a few weeks later, when they went to bury her, they found out that the Israeli tank crawled over her body.

• 53:36Speaker 04

  Ilham Farah.

• 53:38Speaker 04

  She played the piano. She was part of the worship theme in Gaza Baptist Church. Nahida and Samar.

• 53:44Tucker Carlson?

  When did this happen?

• 53:45Speaker 04

  That was in November 2023. So, we know it was a vengeance campaign. It was a retaliation.

• 53:51Tucker Carlson?

  But why vengeance against 84-year-old Christian piano players? Like, what does she have to do with it?

• 53:57Speaker 04

  Nahida and Samar Anton, another two ladies, a lady in her 80s and her daughter. They were gunned by an Israeli sniper on church ground. Holy, holy family church that was also later on bombed and three people were killed.

• 54:15Speaker 04

  Those are real stories. Those are real people who have suffered because of this military power that is directed on them day and day and night. And the whole idea is really, honestly, is, is getting rid of Palestinians, is pushing them out. Doesn't matter whether they're Christians or, or Muslims. That has been the strategy. And now it's, they're taking a different approach in the West Bank by suffocating the communities, by creating as many Israeli settlements as possible so they can squeeze the, the, the, the, the communities out. They push them out of their land and...

• 54:55Tucker Carlson?

  And when you were a child, there were Israeli settlements near your, your home?

• 54:58Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 55:00Tucker Carlson?

  Did you ever have positive interactions with the settlers?

• 55:03Speaker 04

  You know, to be honest with you, some settlers have no idea. They just moved in there. Uh, and again, we can't really paint with white brush and say all these people are evil.

• 55:13Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 55:13Speaker 04

  But there is a system that is enabling this evil to take place.

• 55:18Tucker Carlson?

  It's just cheaper, right, to live out there?

• 55:19Speaker 04

  They get subsidized and they get government subsidies to move into the West Bank, and they call it Judea and Samaria. And unfortunately, going back to your questions, uh, there is an organization, not just one, but there is one that I know of, and they boast about it on their website, that they have raised and spent $3.5 billion.

• 55:42Speaker 04

  To support these settlements and to bring people from all over the world to return to their, you know, ancestral homeland of Judea and Samaria. And they raised those 3.5 billion dollars from evangelical Christians, from Christians in the United States. Now, if you're American here and you, you go to church, you love Jesus, you love scriptures, just like we do, worship every Sunday, you're involved in ministry, you're volunteering at your local church. And if you hear the vision from your pastors that, hey, we're, you know,

• 56:20Speaker 04

  the Jewish people, they have gone under severe horrific Holocaust during World War II. And now we have the opportunity to bring some of these survivors back to Israel to their homeland. If you're an American watching this and hearing this, wow, this sounds really great. This sounds very noble. And I agree. I mean, I, as a Palestinian, I want the Jewish people to live in safety and dignity.

• 56:52Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 56:53Speaker 04

  But it doesn't have to come at the expense of the local Christian Palestinians and the local Palestinian indigenous people who have lived in that land for the past 2,000 years. You see, what they're telling you is that this is a great vision. It's, you know, Christian, when they hear about Zionism, it's a compelling vision. It's bringing people who don't have any land and have, and, and create a homeland.

• 57:19Tucker Carlson?

  A land without people for a people without land.

• 57:21Speaker 04

  Yes, but the land had people.

• 57:23Tucker Carlson?

  I know.

• 57:24Speaker 04

  So what do you do to create room is you keep pushing them out. So.

• 57:29Tucker Carlson?

  Can I ask what you referred to Judea and Samaria? I know that under Ron DeSantis in the state of Florida, it's now like required by law to call it Judea and Samaria, what we call the West Bank, which was part of Jordan, formerly Transjordan, whatever, it's, but it's.

• 57:45Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 57:46Tucker Carlson?

  Right outside Jerusalem.

• 57:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:48Tucker Carlson?

  All the way to the Jordan River, it's the West Bank, Jordan River. That area was taken from Jordan in the Six Day War, 1967. Okay.

• 57:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:55Tucker Carlson?

  And so we've called it my whole life, the West Bank.

• 57:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:59Tucker Carlson?

  And now we're required.

• 58:02Tucker Carlson?

  To call it Judea and Samaria, and I guess I don't really care. I wonder why some American politician is telling me what I have to call a place across the ocean, but because he's taking a lot of money from proponents of this, of course. But like, why are they so intent on forcing me to call it Judea and Samaria? I honestly don't understand.

• 58:21Speaker 04

  It's not just Florida. I mean, I love Florida.

• 58:23Tucker Carlson?

  I do too.

• 58:24Speaker 04

  It's a great sunshine state, you know? I moved here in 2020 because I heard that Governor DeSantis banned COVID here.

• 58:33Tucker Carlson?

  Amen.

• 58:34Speaker 04

  So we moved here because we love Florida and we still enjoy it. But they passed a law to call Judea.

• 58:40Tucker Carlson?

  But why, why is some American politician telling me that?

• 58:43Speaker 04

  It's many different states who are seeking to change the name. And for us, you know, I'm a Christian. Yes, it's the biblical name. That's what Judea and Samaria was called when Jesus was there. But instead of really worrying about calling a region a biblical name, why can't we apply biblical principles?

• 59:06Tucker Carlson?

  No, but I'm just saying like, what's the, so the Israelis are telling our lawmakers, you must force your people to use these words. And they're doing that across our society and they say they're doing it, so they're doing it. But why? Why does it matter to them?

• 59:21Speaker 04

  They want to invoke divine rights. They want to, they want to make the connection that this land divinely and theologically belongs to one group of people. Now, if you look at the West Bank, let's break it down. There is a legal implication, but there's also a moral and theological implication. The legal implication, the US politicians hate it. They don't like to get into the legal complexity of the West Bank because it's a losing case. The whole world agrees that the Israeli settlements are illegally built by an occupying force on Palestinian land.

• 1:00:05Speaker 04

  The land is occupied according to United Nations Fourth Geneva Convention, United Nations Resolution, Security Council even. This has been the longstanding US policy for the past 50 years. I don't know if you remember the Hansel memo, which stipulates that this land is occupied and the settlements are illegal. Now, from different administrations, the language is different. Some administrations, like Obama, they call it obstacle to peace. Some administrations call it illegitimate settlements that are preventing and hindering the two-state solution. But interestingly, in Trump's first administration, when Mike Pompeo was the Secretary of State,

• 1:00:50Speaker 04

  he rescinded the Hansel memo. And he said, "Those Israeli settlements are not per se inconsistent with international law." Whatever that means, but basically, these are not illegal. They have a legal right to Judea and Samaria. For me, okay, I'm not a politician, I'm not a legal expert, I'm a Christian minister. I look at the issue from a biblical perspective, from a moral perspective. What are the biblical implications of this? Does God really approve displacement?

• 1:01:32Tucker Carlson?

  Of stealing?

• 1:01:33Speaker 04

  Of land theft? And there's a biblical story, actually, about this, Tucker. You know, when the evil king of Israel, Ahab, he had an evil woman, wife, named Jezabel. They looked over and they saw a vineyard owned by Naboth. And they loved that vineyard. They said, "Man, we want to take it." And being the king of Israel, they could have invoked divine rights. He's the king appointed, ordained by God. But unfortunately, he was a dishonorable king. He did not obey the ways of the Lord. So I don't know how much divine rights he can claim. But let's say, for the sake of argument, they claim divine rights.

• 1:02:16Speaker 04

  They went and they tried to acquire the vineyard legally. They offered Naboth money. Naboth refused to... To sell. So what do they do? They conspire and they kill neighbors and they steal the land and they take it. It's the state backed by divine rights stealing innocent man's land.

• 1:02:39Tucker Carlson?

  May I ask, did God notice that they did this?

• 1:02:42Speaker 04

  Of course he did.

• 1:02:43Tucker Carlson?

  He did, oh, he did.

• 1:02:44Speaker 04

  He sent the prophet Elijah to stand before Ahab and tell him, what you did was wrong. God is going to judge you for it. Now, I wonder, as a Palestinian Christian.

• 1:02:56Tucker Carlson?

  And then what happened?

• 1:02:58Speaker 04

  Where are the Elishas of our world? Where is the church standing up to this injustice? So.

• 1:03:10Tucker Carlson?

  They're cowards and they're making the wrong choice. They're making the wrong, they're gonna have to answer for this.

• 1:03:15Speaker 04

  And let me be very honest with you, Tucker. We can't paint with a white brush. There have been so many great American missionaries who have come to the Middle East, who have labored in the Middle East. A lot of great churches have given sweat and blood for the Middle East. They built great schools. We have one in Beethahur, evangelical church of Beethahur. And they have built hospitals, they have built schools, they have planted churches. But there is a stream of Christians that has disproportionate power and influence on US policy.

• 1:04:00Speaker 04

  And it's that policy that is inflicting pain and suffering on a community like Beethahur. This is the core issue.

• 1:04:09Tucker Carlson?

  I know.

• 1:04:10Speaker 04

  And they're doing it in the name of the Bible, where the Bible is innocent.

• 1:04:16Tucker Carlson?

  I got a lecture this morning from an Israeli, this morning. You know, I'm not an anti Semite. I abhor antisemitism against my religion. I've said that a thousand times and I mean it. If I was an anti Semite, I'd just say I'm an anti Semite. I am not an anti Semite and I'm never going to become one, no matter what they say. So I'm talking, you know, like, what do you want me to do to prove I'm not an anti Semite? Hundred percent. Recant your attacks on Christian Zionism. It wasn't, "Stop saying mean things about the Jews." I've never said any mean things about the Jews. I don't feel bad things about, I'm not mad at the Jews, period. I'm mad, as I've said a million times, about my people, Christians, distorting the gospel in a way that allows theft and murder and the degradation of human beings.

• 1:05:01Tucker Carlson?

  I just, I'm never gonna be okay with that. And they're, that's what they're mad at me about, is because I've called out Christian Zionism. Because they see that, I just had this conversation an hour ago, so it's fresh in mind.

• 1:05:14Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:05:14Tucker Carlson?

  They see that as critical. You have to have American evangelical pastors telling their congregations, who are sweet people, who don't know any better.

• 1:05:25Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:05:26Tucker Carlson?

  That God wants you to support the state of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu. That's what they, they need that.

• 1:05:32Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:05:33Tucker Carlson?

  Is that fair, do you think?

• 1:05:35Speaker 04

  What Christian Zionists get wrong here is that not because they want to create a safe place for the Jewish people, that's, that could be an honorable cause.

• 1:05:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, I agree.

• 1:05:49Speaker 04

  But the process, the implication of what that means, to them, Christian Zionism means creating a safe place for the Jews, where they can feel safe and secure, and which is honorable, great.

• 1:05:59Tucker Carlson?

  Got it.

• 1:06:00Speaker 04

  But for Palestinians, Christian Zionism means taking our land, taking our resources, while declaring that you have a divine right, and the descendants of the shepherds in the little town of Beit Sahur, who have maintained their Christian presence for the past 2,000 years, do not somehow have that same divine right. Our ancestors were Jewish.

• 1:06:27Speaker 04

  Palestinian Christians, they first accepted the message of Christ, and that church is still intact today. As I said, well, some people even converted when Islam came to Palestine. Some people converted, but they did not convert from atheism. Muslims converted from Christianity, and probably some Jews even converted to Islam. So you might have some, some Muslims, they can claim that they have a Jewish DNA.

• 1:06:57Speaker 04

  But again, identity changes. It's dynamic.

• 1:07:00Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:07:01Speaker 04

  It, it, language changes, but the people are there.

• 1:07:06Tucker Carlson?

  So I think now's a good time to ask you to explain what Christian Zionism is. And I'm at a disadvantage because I'm so ignorant. I just didn't grow up around this at all. So as fairly as you can, can you explain what Christian Zionism? And I should say, you came to the United States and went to Liberty University.

• 1:07:23Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:07:23Tucker Carlson?

  Correct?

• 1:07:24Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:07:25Tucker Carlson?

  Lots of great people there, lots of Christian Zionists there, lots. So I think it's, I think you understand it, right?

• 1:07:30Speaker 04

  And I loved my time at Liberty University. So thankful for the great education I got there. I had to meet a lot of great friends, great professors. My life was changed there. I actually rededicated my life. And I committed my life to service at Liberty University. And I received the vision to start Levant Ministries at Liberty, which is the organization I now lead. And, but, but here is where, you know, Christian Zionism have a different understanding. It's a theopolitical movement that says that God has two distinct people

• 1:08:12Speaker 04

  with two distinct plans and two distinct covenant. When Mike Huckabee was asked on, he was on an interview at TBN, Trinity Broadcasting Network, and he was asked, what is the verse that guides your day-to-day job? As a US ambassador in Israel, you know what he said? He said Genesis 12:3. "I want to be able to bless Israel so I can be blessed. I want to secure all the blessings for Israel so the United States can receive the blessings in return." So for us, we have to look at this theology.

• 1:08:52Tucker Carlson?

  Do you know what that means?

• 1:08:55Tucker Carlson?

  To me, as someone who's interested in words, a former editor, book writer, I care about definitions. And so when Christian Zionists say "Israel," what are they talking about?

• 1:09:06Speaker 04

  That's a great question, because as Christians, we have to look at the Scripture through the lens of Christ. Christ is the point. Christ is the fulfillment. And the way I look at Scriptures, I look at the Old Testament, the faithful and the righteous people of the Old Testament, and the righteous and the faithful people of the New Testament, as one faith community. They're beautifully connected through the cross. The moment that you start separating this, this is when you start getting into a different interpretation of what Israel means today. Is it the government of Israel? Are God's people or not? But when we look at the Gospel,

• 1:09:48Speaker 04

  we see Jesus as the very center. We look at the New Testament with the lens of the Gospel. We see Jesus in the Old Testament. And what Jesus did is very critical, and it really is important for us to understand what Jesus did in the new covenant He brought, and how it changed and it transformed the old covenant that God had with Abraham.

• 1:10:14Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:10:15Speaker 04

  It didn't abolish it. It didn't replace it, which is, you know, we're not replacement theology. I do not agree with replacement theology. God is not done with the Jews. God is not done with anybody. God wants everybody to come to their saving knowledge and to enjoy His grace and to enjoy His blessings. God desires this, for God so loved the world, right? But what Jesus did, He did not replace the Jews, but it was a journey that God started with Abraham. And when they quote Genesis 12:3, that was a private conversation between God and Abraham. And God came to Abraham and told him, "You no longer are called Abrahams, but you're gonna be called Abraham, the Father with all nations."

• 1:10:59Speaker 04

  So God's original plan is to redeem all nations, is to bless the whole world through the seed of Abraham. And when you look at the New Testament, you read a verse like Galatians 3:16, where it says, Abraham has one seed. He didn't say seeds. And through that seed, you get to enjoy all the Abrahamic blessings. So what Jesus came to do, and it's that seed, of course, it's Christ. And that journey that Abraham started with God, it's still in motion today. It didn't divert. It didn't get replaced. It didn't get, oh, well,

• 1:11:43Speaker 04

  Jesus came and his people didn't accept him. So let's me go to Plan P. There was always one plan for God's redemption and God's salvation. It started in Abraham, and it culminated in Jesus. And we are the extension of that Abrahamic blessing. So if I put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ, I get to claim the Abrahamic blessings in Genesis 12:3.

• 1:12:07Tucker Carlson?

  It seems that way. And I, but I guess I don't. I mean, I have so many questions, but, I mean, first of all, how could Christians ever support any movement that rejects Jesus? I just don't, I don't understand that. How could we, we could say we, we feel so sorry for people who reject Jesus. We want to help them.

• 1:12:27Speaker 04

  In simple terms, I think Christian Zionism has replaced Jesus with the current state of Israel.

• 1:12:32Tucker Carlson?

  Obviously, that's why I think it's heresy. And I don't mean that in a, I mean, like, I should be calling anyone else a heretic. I've lived such a bad life, but, and I'm not, I hope I don't sound self-righteous. I just don't understa, it's like, I thought Christianity was about following Jesus, and Jesus was the key. Is it not? You're the, you're the minister.

• 1:12:50Speaker 04

  What Jesus did, he did two important things that we cannot overlook. He expanded the scope of the promise.

• 1:12:58Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:12:58Speaker 04

  Of Abraham.

• 1:12:59Tucker Carlson?

  To everybody, right?

• 1:13:00Speaker 04

  To everybody. And he expanded the meaning of the promise. Okay, and let me unpack this for a little bit, for our. For the viewers to really understand the theological importance and significance of this. So when he expanded the scope of the promise, what is the promise? He expanded it from a mere geographical location alongside the Mediterranean coastline to include the whole earth.

• 1:13:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:13:26Speaker 04

  The New Testament spells it out.

• 1:13:29Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I know.

• 1:13:29Speaker 04

  The Apostle Paul, you know, in his letters to the Romans, Romans 4:13. He said, "By faith God made Abraham the heir of the whole world."

• 1:13:40Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly. I've read it.

• 1:13:42Speaker 04

  So for God's all of the world, that he gave his only son, that whosoever, right? So not only expanded the geographical location of the land, he also expanded the ethnic line of the people to include every tribe, every nation, every tongue.

• 1:14:01Tucker Carlson?

  It says that again and again and again and again. And that's the whole, that's the story of Acts, that's the story of Revelation, it's the story of the whole New Testament.

• 1:14:08Speaker 04

  That's what Jesus instructed his disciples to do. He said, "Hey, leave your nationalistic aspiration aside. We have a kingdom to build. The kingdom of God is at hand. The kingdom of God is among you." So they let go of their dreams to build the kingdom for Israel, and they went and they paid for their life for the kingdom, the eternal kingdom of God. So Jesus expanded the geography. That's, he is the locus of the land. He is the one that speaks in Hebrew that, you know, if we enter in Jesus, we find rest. The land does not give us rest anymore. So he expanded the geography, he expanded the ethnic line to include every nation, every tribe.

• 1:14:52Speaker 04

  And that always, by the way, Takar, it's been always God's plan that way. In Psalm, the Old Testament, chapter 2, verse 8, it says, "Ask me and I will give you the nations as your inheritance." So God's plan has been always the whole world, redeeming the whole world, restoring the whole world. And it's been always inclusive for all people, all ethnicity.

• 1:15:15Tucker Carlson?

  It's so clear, and it's clear in Jesus's ministry. I'm spending the year just reading the four gospels again and again, and that jumps out at me. I mean, who does, who does Jesus praise most? The Roman officer, I've not seen anyone with faith like this in Israel, right? It's some pagan guy.

• 1:15:33Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:15:34Tucker Carlson?

  Right, so.

• 1:15:35Speaker 04

  But the meaning of the promise, and this is important, what does it mean? Do we inherit a holy land between the river and the Mediterranean? Or does it mean something else? The meaning of that promise have also been transformed. It's not just the scope of the promise, it's the meaning of the promise. From temporary to eternal, from physical to spiritual, from conditional, because it was conditional, by the way, you know, he didn't just give them the land and say, this is your land, it's God's lands, by the way. He is the landlord, and the people that were given the land, they were tenants, and they have to obey the commandments of the Lord.

• 1:16:19Speaker 04

  They have to love their neighbors, they have to take care of the foreigners among them. And when they don't obey the covenant that was given to them, God always kicked them out.

• 1:16:32Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah, they get taken to Babylon, yeah.

• 1:16:34Speaker 04

  Yes, twice, and the Old Testament gives graphic language when describes the, you know, not for Israel not obeying the laws of the Lord. It says, "The land will vomit you out," excuse my language. So it was conditional when it was given to Abraham, but in Jesus, it's secure, it's eternal, it's no longer. And you know, what really makes me fall in love with Jesus and the patriarchs and the fathers, the church fathers, and the church throughout history. And the Palestinian church really understands this, because they truly understand the meaning of the covenant.

• 1:17:18Speaker 04

  Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, it spells it out in Hebrews, that they were eagerly looking for the new Jerusalem.

• 1:17:28Speaker 04

  Whose architect and builder is God? They were not fixated on a mere strip of land. That's temporary. That's gonna be gone. We should be focused on what's eternal. And obviously, when Jesus came and he was in John 18, when he was being tried before Pilate, the charge was, are you a king? Are you threatening me? Am I, are you a threat to my kingdom and my dominion? Jesus said, yes, I am a king, but my kingdom is not from this world. My kingdom is not from here. Why are we bringing back

• 1:18:08Speaker 04

  a pre-Christian territorial mindset to the church today?

• 1:18:14Tucker Carlson?

  Well, exactly. And it is pre-Christian. It's not Western at all. It's Eastern. And collective punishment is the sign that we're not dealing with a Western mindset at all because we reject collective punishment. I may be mad at you. I can't kill your kids. Not allowed.

• 1:18:29Speaker 04

  Yes. And there are some sincere dispensationalists. Let me say this. I have some dispensational friends. And Christians should debate this vigorously, but it should stay in the seminary. It should be staying within the walls of the church.

• 1:18:42Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's the problem. So I haven't even gotten involved in it because I'm just too ignorant. Okay, when you said replacement theology, I don't know what that is and I'm not gonna learn. All I know is that Christianity, my read of it is just focus on Jesus and you will be transformed. And so I'm just gonna stick with that. But as a political matter, and that's what I do cover and have my whole life, I don't understand what Ambassador Huckabee, for example, is saying when he says bless Israel. Okay, what is Israel? So my read of Genesis is it goes from like a tributary of the Euphrates in Iraq all the way, you know, to the Nile.

• 1:19:19Tucker Carlson?

  Like, so that's like six countries. What is that? What are the boundaries?

• 1:19:23Speaker 04

  And that's still too small for God.

• 1:19:26Tucker Carlson?

  Of course, as a theological matter, but I think if we're speaking in political terms, this is a government.

• 1:19:31Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:19:31Tucker Carlson?

  Run by, you know, secular people by and large.

• 1:19:35Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:19:35Tucker Carlson?

  And they're saying, God gave us this land. Okay, what land? What are the boundaries? So we should at least define the terms. Second, who's we? What does it mean? Who are the people who inherited this? So the Prime Minister of Israel is not religious. He doesn't keep the Sabbath or keep kosher. I'm not attacking him. I'm just saying like, then what are you talking about? Are you saying you have a genetic inheritance? Like what? Okay, let's see.

• 1:19:55Speaker 04

  Can someone who converses to Judaism claims divine rights from Brooklyn, New York?

• 1:20:00Tucker Carlson?

  I don't even want to have these conversations. They're the ones pushing them. I think people, I'm happy to let people practice their own religions. I don't want to get involved.

• 1:20:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:20:08Tucker Carlson?

  I don't want to know everything about Mormonism or Islam or whatever. It's fine. But as long as you're saying you have a right to my money and your parents' land on the basis of this promise in Genesis, I have a right to ask you what the heck you're talking about.

• 1:20:23Speaker 04

  Did you know that Israel goes out of its way to prevent Messianic believers from making aliyah?

• 1:20:31Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:20:32Speaker 04

  Jewish believers in Jesus. If they find out that you believed in Jesus, they don't, they don't give you the right to immigrate to Israel.

• 1:20:41Tucker Carlson?

  What?

• 1:20:42Speaker 04

  So whose land?

• 1:20:44Tucker Carlson?

  Is that true?

• 1:20:45Speaker 04

  Whose promise? Yeah, I have a lot of Jewish friends who are believers in Jesus and they share with me.

• 1:20:50Tucker Carlson?

  And they can't move back to Israel and get all the rights of?

• 1:20:55Speaker 04

  Not as.

• 1:20:56Tucker Carlson?

  So they're really, okay, so now that we're talking like present day, concrete political realities, there are two claims that they could potentially be making. One is, is faith-based. So I believe in this religion called Judaism. We could debate what that religion is. Is it Talmudic or rabbinic, whatever? That's a whole separate conversation that I don't want to have, but like they're pushing this, but it's either faith-based, I believe in this. Or it's blood-based, it's genetic.

• 1:21:23Speaker 04

  They have also historical claims, say, a Jew's been here, we have.

• 1:21:26Tucker Carlson?

  But who are the Jews then? Like, do you have more DNA? I don't know if you even know the answer, but do you? If we were to say, okay, who lived in first-century Palestine, current-day Israel? Are you more closely related to those people? Or is Benjamin Netanyahu more closely related to those people?

• 1:21:44Speaker 04

  They should do DNA tests and see. And I did my DNA test. Palestinian Christians are Levantine of origin.

• 1:21:52Tucker Carlson?

  So it's likely that you have more Jewish ancestors than Benjamin Netanyahu's family's from Europe?

• 1:21:58Speaker 04

  Probably.

• 1:21:59Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. So then it can't be genetic because, right?

• 1:22:03Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, again, as Christians, we have to put the gospel lens.

• 1:22:07Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I agree.

• 1:22:08Speaker 04

  We can't ignore what Jesus did, and this is the significance, you know? And when Jesus went into Nazareth, his hometown synagogue on a Saturday, he was baptized, went in the wilderness, got tried to the devil, overcame with Scripture, and then he went to his hometown. The scroll from Isaiah was handed to them. And he said, this is the Nazareth manifesto. This is the first sermon he's ever preached, Jesus, okay? Started, launched his ministry in Nazareth, and it's so beautiful. He said, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. He has sent me to set the captive free, to bring sight to the blind, is to bring, proclaim the good news to the poor." Everybody in the synagogue were so happy.

• 1:22:51Speaker 04

  And remember the context, it was very, a lot of tension between the Jews and the Romans. So the Jews were waiting for the Messiah, but they were waiting for a military liberator. They were waiting for a politician to come and lead them against the Romans. But then Jesus gave two sermon illustrations. One about a widow from Sidon, which is current, modern-day of Lebanon. He said, "Not because there weren't so many widows in Israel, that Elijah was sent to the Sidonian widow." Okay, a foreigner, keep in mind.

• 1:23:26Tucker Carlson?

  When there were lots of needy widows in Israel at the time.

• 1:23:28Speaker 04

  But he went to a foreigner. And not because there weren't so many people with leprosy, which is a skin disease, that God's grace, through Elisha, Elijah's servant, reached a Syrian army commander.

• 1:23:44Speaker 04

  Whose name is Naaman. So Jesus is saying the foreigner gets to enjoy God's blessings and God's favor. And the enemy from Aram gets to enjoy God's blessings and God's favor. When they heard this, they were furious. They took him to the edge of the town that was built on and they wanted to throw him over.

• 1:24:05Tucker Carlson?

  To murder him, yeah.

• 1:24:07Speaker 04

  So Jesus' message, if we keep it central and focused, it disrupts all this exclusive mindset. Why can't we share the land? Why can't we live in peace? We are extending an olive branch and saying, let's find. Obviously, there is 7 million Jews and 7 million Palestinians living currently between the river and the sea. Obviously, they're not gonna kick the Palestinians out. Although they've been trying very, very hard to do that. And had Egypt open the borders in Gaza, I think the whole population would have been pushed out.

• 1:24:48Speaker 04

  And they are trying to do it very, very closely to the Christians in Beethah right now by bringing many different settlements and making life extremely miserable, restricted movement, all of that. So obviously, the people are still there. They're not gonna kick us out. The other option is that the Palestinians are gonna kick the Israelis out. And for me, as a Christian Palestinian, I don't wanna see that happen. I don't wanna see another tragedy inflicted upon the Jewish people. So the bottom line, and this is the posture, and this is the attitude, and this is the position that every single follower of Jesus must adopt and follow. Let's find a way to share the land.

• 1:25:31Speaker 04

  Let's find a way to make peace. Instead of getting caught in end time scenarios, something speculative sometime in the future.

• 1:25:42Tucker Carlson?

  What is that?

• 1:25:43Speaker 04

  Or, or, you know.

• 1:25:46Speaker 04

  Preferring another group of people over another. It's superiority. It's becoming an ethno-state. Are we gonna keep it as an ethno-state? Or can we find a diplomatic solution? The danger is when Christian politicians start to mix the politics with theology. And they come up with this formula that is indigestible, hard to solve, sows confusion, and it keeps people on the sideline instead of actively engaging and becoming peacemakers.

• 1:26:21Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it, boy, you like every, you know, the Levantine peoples are so diplomatic. It's like unbelievable. Yeah, it's way worse than that. I mean, you wind up, I mean, as I know you know, you wind up with Christian politicians who are constantly invoking the name of Jesus, supporting the murder of their fellow Christians in the Levant. So like, that is, I think that's very serious. I don't think you should do that. I think you're gonna suffer for that. Like, don't do that. How can you excuse or aid in the murder of innocents in the name of Jesus? And I've said this directly to a bunch of these politicians

• 1:27:05Tucker Carlson?

  because I get very upset about it. And they're like under a spell, like they don't, even in private, they're like, well, we have to. What is that?

• 1:27:15Speaker 04

  Last December, the State of Israel, the Foreign Ministry of the State of Israel, sponsored a summit in Jerusalem. They brought 1,000 US pastors to Israel to attend military briefings to...

• 1:27:32Tucker Carlson?

  Military briefings?

• 1:27:33Speaker 04

  Yes. The head of the state was there. The prime minister was there. They were commissioning them as ambassadors, not for Jesus, but for the State of Israel. They were talking about this unholy alliance being formed...

• 1:27:49Tucker Carlson?

  Well, they attacked me by name, I know.

• 1:27:51Speaker 04

  Right, and they attacked you and all of that. But what really caught my attention, Tucker, when I was reading over the website of that summit, I was reading some notes and some guidelines, dos and don'ts. One of the guidelines, it's a Christian ministry also who's doing, who's organizing this with the Foreign Ministry of Affairs.

• 1:28:15Speaker 04

  One of the guidelines stated that do not speak of the name of Jesus. Preaching is not allowed in Jerusalem. Express your faith through acts of kindness and all that, but do not mention Jesus.

• 1:28:30Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 1:28:31Speaker 04

  When I read that, my mind went back all the way to the Book of Acts, Chapter 5. When the spiritual elites in Jerusalem, they summoned Peter and the disciples. And you know what they told them? Do not speak of the name of Jesus.

• 1:28:49Speaker 04

  Imagine those pastors coming to Jerusalem. To not be able to share their faith and to share about their Christ and their Messiah, the hope. That's one thing. The other thing, none of these pastors, they went and they prayed over dead stones. They went over and prayed over the Western walls, which is, you know, fine, they can do that. But none of them stepped a foot in a Christian church.

• 1:29:14Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:29:15Speaker 04

  None of them visited the local Christian population, who is...

• 1:29:19Tucker Carlson?

  They didn't go to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre?

• 1:29:22Speaker 04

  Not to my knowledge. It wasn't part of the itinerary.

• 1:29:26Tucker Carlson?

  How can a Church of the Holy Sepulchre, obviously one of the most holy places in Christendom? It's where Christians believe Jesus's tomb was, sepulchre, tomb.

• 1:29:34Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:29:35Tucker Carlson?

  And it's a wonderful place, amazing place. One of the great places in the world, in my opinion. How could you not go there if you're a Christian minister?

• 1:29:44Speaker 04

  Like, Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House.

• 1:29:47Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yes.

• 1:29:48Speaker 04

  He's, he's a very prominent evangelical, third in line presidency. Last August, he went to Israel. He prayed the Western Wall. He went to a settlement in the West Bank. And he planted trees in those settlements in the West Bank. And he declared that this Judeans and Samarian hills belonged to the Jewish people by divine right.

• 1:30:18Speaker 04

  What?

• 1:30:18Tucker Carlson?

  We're gonna be so punished for this. We're gonna be punished for this. I'm just telling you.

• 1:30:22Speaker 04

  He never interacted and met with the, you know, people go and visit the dead stones, but they forget about the living stones. There are people there who are suffering because of this system that keeps oppressing them and applying pressure. And their numbers are shrinking. The people are leaving. And people throw this number. Well, it's it's because of other pressures. No, Israel is the only place in the Middle, the only democracy in the Middle East that Christians feel respected and protected. You know, the Prime Minister of Israel.

• 1:31:01Tucker Carlson?

  What year were you born?

• 1:31:03Speaker 04

  I was born in 1980.

• 1:31:04Tucker Carlson?

  OK, so you grew up under the Israeli government as a Christian?

• 1:31:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I watched also the Oslo Accord.

• 1:31:10Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, so I mean, like I'm talking, you're sitting right here. Is that what do you think when you hear that?

• 1:31:15Speaker 04

  And I still minister there. And we still have our ministry, still serves in the Palestinian territories. And we serve in Jordan, and we serve in Egypt. And our ministry is focused on reaching young people, equipping them and empowering them so they can be agents of change in their communities, so they can become peacemakers. This is why I left my secular job in DC, a very successful job, and committed my life to this mission because the Christian presence in the Middle East is at the brink of extinction. If we can't do, if we don't do anything about it, especially in Beetham right now, there'll be no Christians left.

• 1:31:50Tucker Carlson?

  But just to be clear, under the Israelis, it's on the, at the point of extinction. Having survived the Romans and the Crusaders and the Ottomans and the English, it's under the Israelis that the Christians are about to go to extinct.

• 1:32:04Speaker 04

  This is exactly why I am.

• 1:32:08Speaker 04

  Not going to be silent anymore, not because I'm not an activist. I don't go on podcasts and just start talking. But when I see something against the values that we believe in, the biblical values, against the character of God, I have to be that prophetic voice and say, "Not in our name." Jesus showed us a better way. Jesus taught his followers to be the salt, to be the light, to be the peacemaker. He entrusted us with the ministry of reconciliation. How much reconciliation efforts are we doing? We're given money and billions of dollars to build these settlements.

• 1:32:51Speaker 04

  So, and taking the land from Christians, but we're, we're, we're, we're spending little to no money in peace initiatives, in reconciliation efforts, in understanding, in mutual understanding. And there are so many Christian-led organizations on the ground that are doing amazing work in, in, in raising up the next generation. That's the whole reason I'm putting my life on the line, not to see Palestinian Christians and the next generation of Palestinians go hopeless and in despair.

• 1:33:25Tucker Carlson?

  Are you, I mean, the violence and the worship of violence there is really like no place I'm aware of in the world. And, you know, people who follow this already know that. And everybody's afraid.

• 1:33:39Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:33:39Tucker Carlson?

  I have noticed when we're going to Israel and more people have called me, you know, "Ooh, be careful, everyone's afraid." Are you afraid?

• 1:33:49Speaker 04

  Absolutely. I mean, the people we serve in Bethlehem, when we tell the parents that we're taking your kids to Jerusalem, whenever Israelis allow us to get permits, it's becoming really very rare now that Israelis would allow Christians from Bethlehem, which is five kilometers away, to go and spend the day in Jerusalem. But when we do get their permits and we tell them-

• 1:34:13Tucker Carlson?

  You don't get permit- Christians in Jerusalem, I mean in Bethlehem, have difficulty going to Jerusalem, three miles away?

• 1:34:19Speaker 04

  Oh, absolutely. The whole thing is, the system is set up to restrict the movement to only, you have to apply through the Israeli militaries to get permission to go from a Palestinian city to an Israeli cities, or Israeli-controlled cities. Think about it, I mean, look, the West Bank is like a Swiss cheese.

• 1:34:39Speaker 04

  There are holes on this Swiss cheese. Those are the Palestinian cities. They live in 165 enclaves throughout the West Bank. But Israel controls the whole cheese militarily. And they apply pressure on these Palestinian cities. Some people even call it the "holy Swiss cheese."

• 1:35:02Speaker 04

  So, when Palestinians want to go from one Palestinian city to another, they have to drive on specific roads, going through specific checkpoints, roadblocks, and around every city, there are iron gates that Israel seals off every time they feel like it. Our ministry director was coming back from a trip from Jericho to Bethlehem. A drive should take him about 35, 40 minutes. He got stuck at one of the checkpoints for eight hours. He got hungry, he ordered food on DoorDash, came through a motorcycle, delivered pizza for him. But he got stuck there for eight hours. And he'd had a team of ministers from the Netherlands,

• 1:35:47Speaker 04

  and they were all stuck together. They saw it firsthand. Lines and lines of trucks and Palestinian cars. Why? Because the Israeli soldier on that checkpoint felt like taking a nap.

• 1:36:00Speaker 04

  Eight hours. This is the daily reality. This is not random. A trip that would, you know, if you had a medical emergency- You miss it. If you have a job interview, if you want to go from Bethlehem to Ramallah, from Jericho to any other Palestinian town, Hebron, you will have to go through these... You will have to navigate through the Swiss cheese. And sometimes you get shot at randomly. At gunpoint. I was with a group of church leaders from Alabama. Took them to the West Bank. Went through Jordan,

• 1:36:44Speaker 04

  and then one of the checkpoints that leads to Jerusalem. We got stopped. "Where's your passport?" Everybody held the American passport. I had my American passport, which I'm very proud of. We held it, but the soldier profiled me out of all the 10 church leaders. And he said, "You, where's your Palestinian ID?" I gave him my Palestinian ID, and he said, "You're not allowed through this checkpoint. You have to go through Kalandia, which is you have to walk on foot. You're not allowed to..."

• 1:37:17Tucker Carlson?

  Did you say, "Son, I pay your salary. I'm an American citizen. Don't speak to me like that."

• 1:37:22Speaker 04

  I told him, "You are embarrassing the State of Israel in front of our American friends, who I brought from Alabama." They watched the whole thing. Some of them, they broke in tears. They said, "What is this?"

• 1:37:33Tucker Carlson?

  And what happened?

• 1:37:35Speaker 04

  And we made a U-turn and went to the other checkpoint.

• 1:37:39Tucker Carlson?

  But I mean, okay, you pay for this. Like, you're an American taxpayer.

• 1:37:44Speaker 04

  Palestinian, Christian, Americans specifically, we feel betrayed on two levels.

• 1:37:50Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:52Speaker 04

  We pay taxes. We work so hard to fund this system. In the meantime, our sacred texts and our sacred scripture is used against us. You don't belong here. God gave this land to somebody else. So our money and our scripture is being flipped on us and weaponized against us.

• 1:38:16Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, I'm an Episcopalian from La Jolla. I've got nothing to do with any of this at all. And it makes me, just on justice grounds, decency grounds, and Christian grounds, it makes me like crazy. I have to say prayers to calm down. How do you stay so calm?

• 1:38:30Speaker 04

  That's why we need to raise awareness. I love the American church so much. I believe there is, and I believe in the promise of America, Tucker. I believe America can play a significant role in bringing peace and prosperity to the Middle East, which is, that's the stated intention. But the way we go about it is, sometimes it contradicts biblical values.

• 1:38:56Tucker Carlson?

  So you're an American and you have the blue passport, you're a taxpayer, you get mistreated by the Israeli government, the IDF, which you also pay for, holding a weapon made in your country that you paid for. And you have an ambassador who serves supposedly your country at the US Embassy in Jerusalem. So have you called Mike Huckabee about this?

• 1:39:25Speaker 04

  We have given up on politicians. We have given up.

• 1:39:28Tucker Carlson?

  Well, he's not a politician. He is an emissary of the president who works for the United States State Department. I'm the son of an ambassador, I know how this works. And his job is to reflect the views of his president and to defend his country in a foreign country. He represents America's interests in a foreign country.

• 1:39:45Speaker 04

  That's not what he said on the last TBN interview. He said, "My job is to secure the blessings for Israel so America can get blessed." So his primary concern is really blessing Israel, but what that means...

• 1:39:58Tucker Carlson?

  Has America been blessed by this policy, do you think? I've lived here for 56 years. I don't think it's been blessed by this policy at all.

• 1:40:04Speaker 04

  I don't think...

• 1:40:04Tucker Carlson?

  I don't see the blessings.

• 1:40:05Speaker 04

  I don't think this is how God views blessings. You see, we are blessed in Christ. That's what the American church needs to get. Christ, in Christ. Christ in you is hope of glory.

• 1:40:20Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:40:20Speaker 04

  What else do you really want? That's the blessings that we get to enjoy. But in the meantime, we want to live in a society that is fair, that is based on justice.

• 1:40:31Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:40:31Speaker 04

  Based on human dignity. And we cherish these values, these American values. And these are based on biblical values. And some people make the argument that the entire Western civilization is based on these values.

• 1:40:44Tucker Carlson?

  Well, of course it is.

• 1:40:45Speaker 04

  But when I see, you know, a regime in the Middle East that is claiming to be the only democracy in the Middle East, and it's the extension of the West. And they're not holding, they're not living up to these biblical values, then they need to be held accountable.

• 1:41:05Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, I, well, I couldn't agree more. My whole life has been sidetracked by this question in the past few months because I feel it so strongly and I, I never wanted to have this debate, but whatever. But just to the question of Huckabee, his job is to represent you and your government. So if you called him and don't want to, you know, Huckabee is not the most guilty person. I know him. But I just have to ask, like, could you call Huckabee's, or could you call the US Embassy in Jerusalem and say, hey, I'm an American citizen and I'm being, some guy with a gun is like pulling me out of the car.

• 1:41:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, but how would you have a conversation with somebody who says Palestinians don't exist? Who says Palestinian, there are no such thing as Palestinians?

• 1:41:48Tucker Carlson?

  He said that?

• 1:41:49Speaker 04

  Yes, it's on tape.

• 1:41:51Tucker Carlson?

  What does that mean, don't exist?

• 1:41:53Speaker 04

  That means they're invented people. They all, they, they're not indigenous to the land. They came from somewhere and.

• 1:42:00Tucker Carlson?

  Where did they come from?

• 1:42:01Speaker 04

  Well, they claim that Palestinians came from neighboring countries to prevent the Jewish state from being established. They don't even recognize that these people have been on the land since the shepherds, at least, if not longer.

• 1:42:17Tucker Carlson?

  We can prove that since we've decoded the human genome. We don't have to guess about any of this. We give everybody in the, we give all 14 million people in this zone DNA test so we could find out who's got the longest connection to the land. Couldn't we do that?

• 1:42:29Speaker 04

  Yes, absolutely. For me, and even not just the ambassador, but also to, I want to appeal to the broader evangelical community and this is my tribe. I, justice, human rights, safety and security is not a zero sum game.

• 1:42:52Speaker 04

  Loving Israelis does not mean ignoring the suffering of the Palestinians. Praying for the peace of Jerusalem, which I do it all the time. I want Jerusalem to prosper.

• 1:43:04Tucker Carlson?

  I do too.

• 1:43:04Speaker 04

  I want Jerusalem to thrive.

• 1:43:06Tucker Carlson?

  I totally agree.

• 1:43:07Speaker 04

  But politicians are using this verse to say, "I want to bless Jerusalem, pray for the peace of Jerusalem." That means Jewish sovereignty in Jerusalem. Total disregard of the historic church that has been sitting there for the past 2,000 years. Okay? I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, but praying for the peace of Jerusalem does not mean accepting the destruction of Gaza. Justice is not a zero-sum game.

• 1:43:32Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:43:33Speaker 04

  Our political system and our pastors and leaders, they need to recognize that there is another way. It's not either/or mentality. It's not choosing to support and bless one group of people because most likely it's going to end up at the expense of the vulnerable.

• 1:43:57Tucker Carlson?

  Can I ask you about that point, the expense of the vulnerable? As, this is like Theology 101. As a Christian, can Christians ever accept as good the killing of innocents?

• 1:44:08Speaker 04

  Absolutely not.

• 1:44:10Tucker Carlson?

  That's not even a close call, is it?

• 1:44:11Speaker 04

  It's a crime against God.

• 1:44:15Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:44:16Speaker 04

  Because everyone is created in the image of God.

• 1:44:19Tucker Carlson?

  Bless you.

• 1:44:19Speaker 04

  Israelis, Palestinians, people with faith, people without faith. Everyone is valuable to be cherished and loved by God.

• 1:44:30Tucker Carlson?

  But if you have done nothing wrong, you can't be punished. It's wrong to punish you, correct? It's wrong to shoot your mother for not doing anything. No, I mean, not just your mother, anyone's mother, anyone's child. You can't, you could say, "Well, that happens," which it does, of course, a lot. And it's not just the Israelis who do it, of course, everyone does it. But don't Christians have to say that's wrong?

• 1:44:50Speaker 04

  Absolutely. We have to go, we have to raise a prophetic voice. It's not, Christians are easy to be compassionate. Because Jesus was compassionate. He saw the sheep without a shepherd, he was moved with compassion. But also Jesus, when necessary, he raised a prophetic voice.

• 1:45:07Tucker Carlson?

  He braided a whip, actually, at one point.

• 1:45:09Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:45:10Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:11Speaker 04

  He spoke against the injustice and the evil doers with the goal of transforming their heart.

• 1:45:20Speaker 04

  Now, you know, I don't have the ability to convert anybody. I don't have the ability to change anybody. But I know the one who can.

• 1:45:29Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:45:29Speaker 04

  And if the church doesn't believe in that power, that the hardest of hearts can be transformed. Paul, what changed Paul?

• 1:45:39Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:45:39Speaker 04

  He was a ruthless terrorist, killing Christians and dragging them, went to Damascus to drag them.

• 1:45:44Tucker Carlson?

  Just walking to Syria to kill more Christians.

• 1:45:46Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:45:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yep.

• 1:45:47Speaker 04

  Jesus changed them. And he became the apostle. We need more stories of this in the Middle East. This is what gives me up. This is what keeps me up at night, and this is what gets me up in the morning, is to see the Middle East healed, transformed by the love of God. We need, if we have the power to stop the injustice inflicted upon the Palestinian, we need to speak. If we have the ability to speak against the injustice committed against Christians in Syria, in Iraq.

• 1:46:18Tucker Carlson?

  Lebanon.

• 1:46:18Speaker 04

  I had a friend who pastored the Good Shepherd Evangelical Church in Suaeda. He was butchered with his family, 12 members, in cold blood by an Islamic terrorist. We need, as Christians, we condemn that. We don't condemn that.

• 1:46:37Tucker Carlson?

  This was in Syria?

• 1:46:37Speaker 04

  This was in Syria not too long ago. His name is Khalid Mazhar.

• 1:46:42Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:42Speaker 04

  So, as Christians, we have a responsibility. We have a sacred calling from God to,

• 1:46:52Speaker 04

  to advocate on behalf of the widow, the orphan, the poor, the marginal. This was the very core message. And among many Christians, I want to point this out. They see this as, oh, well, I want to stick with the gospel. I want to preach the gospel. This is social.

• 1:47:06Tucker Carlson?

  That is the gospel.

• 1:47:07Speaker 04

  But Jesus had these two missions that are not competing. He preached the kingdom. He preached forgiveness of sins. He, he, uh, he talked about repentance. But in the meantime, he fed people. He healed bodies. He raised people from the dead. You know, the good news to a child in Gaza who lost all of his family member in airstrike? What is the good news to that child? It's our proximity. It's our presence. It's delivering a cold cup of water for the least of these.

• 1:47:40Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:47:41Speaker 04

  This is the gospel message. So many Christians, they decide, say, "Well, I just want to focus on the gospel and end time theology," and they spend hours and resources and millions of dollars preparing for an event that's going to happen or may not happen in the future, while people are living on hell, living hell on earth.

• 1:48:03Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:05Speaker 04

  So, Ante Wright, great theologian, he said, "You know, heaven is not a place that you get to go to after you die, but heaven is bringing God's love to people on earth."

• 1:48:16Tucker Carlson?

  That's right. And hell is not just a place you're sent to. It's a place you can experience whenever you see chaos and violence and deception. Like, that's what hell is.

• 1:48:25Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:48:26Tucker Carlson?

  It's people screaming lies. I'm totally convinced of that. So, let me ask you about a very controversial topic, and that's Islam and the Muslims. And I noticed that in the United States that anyone who says, "Wait a second, what is going on in Gaza or the West Bank? Why are we paying for this? Why are our ministers, our ministers, making excuses for this?" Anyone who says those things is accused of working for the Muslims, or being a secret jihadist, or taking money from some Muslim group or country or whatever. This has happened to me, so it's a little... For the record, I've never taken money from anybody, Christian, Jew, or Muslim, and won't.

• 1:49:06Tucker Carlson?

  But whatever, the point is, the response is, "I don't want to talk about what your tax dollars are doing, because Islam is so scary that we just have to go along with this, or else we're all going to be living in a caliphate."

• 1:49:20Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:49:21Tucker Carlson?

  What do you... Have you noticed this?

• 1:49:22Speaker 04

  Well, this has been the media narrative, and we are told...

• 1:49:28Speaker 04

  By Christians, and because I minister among Christian circles, that this is a cosmic battle between God of the Bible against his enemies.

• 1:49:38Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:49:39Speaker 04

  This is between good and evil, Islam versus the West.

• 1:49:43Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:43Speaker 04

  Once you frame a conflict like this, you are destined for perpetual animosity and perpetual wars.

• 1:49:51Tucker Carlson?

  That's the whole point. It was the point of 9/11, obviously.

• 1:49:54Speaker 04

  So, do we have our differences theologically with Islam? Yes, nobody ignores that. Do we have our understanding of God? Yes, but that doesn't mean we have to discriminate and demonize an entire group of people, almost 2 billion people, for the sins that are committed by bad actors who are using, you know, religious texts or whatever to justify violence. That is to be called out. And I believe many governments in the Arab world have rejected political Islam.

• 1:50:32Tucker Carlson?

  Well, they fear it too, because it's a threat to their power. But you have to wonder, like, something like Syria where Israel teams up with Turkey, this is true, no one wants to hear it, but to take out the last government, whatever, and the net effect is to have savagery by jihadist groups against Christians and Alawites and other religious minorities, but like, okay, I mean, I'm against jihadis, I'm against radical Muslims, for sure, always have been, but like, they're not the ones who did this, actually. They're not the ones who overthrew a secular regime and made it possible to murder all the Christians. It's same in Iraq. They had a secular regime, not defending Saddam, or Uday, or Qusay.

• 1:51:13Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:51:13Tucker Carlson?

  But it was the Israelis pushing the Bush administration to overthrow this regime that got millions of Christians in Iraq murdered or displaced. That's just a fact.

• 1:51:23Speaker 04

  And had we listened to the church leaders in Iraq, had we listened to the pastors and leaders who pleaded with the administration not to invade, we wouldn't have this catastrophe. Iraqi community is very small, but they're faithful, they're staying, but they have been devastated by the terrorists.

• 1:51:43Tucker Carlson?

  They're mostly gone now, and you will see the same thing in Syria, same thing in Lebanon. Who blew up the port of Beirut?

• 1:51:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, because once you create a chaos, once you blow up a place, you create a vacuum.

• 1:51:53Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:51:53Speaker 04

  A vacuum of hope. And what's going to fill this hope? Is radicalism, extremism? You know, I tell you a story about Ali Faraj from Gaza. Little boy. I think he's six or seven or eight, can't remember his age. He was blown off his apartment into the next door roof. And there's a famous picture, he's, you know, pointing hands and blooded. He lost five of his sisters, 15 members of his family. That creates a deep vacuum in his life.

• 1:52:34Speaker 04

  If it's not filled with the hope, if it's not filled with God's love. This is the easiest, you know.

• 1:52:42Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:52:43Speaker 04

  You know, someone who's going, who, who, when you lose your agency, when you live in despair, I'm not giving excuses, but this is the vacuum that we need

• 1:52:54Tucker Carlson?

  Obviously, obviously.

• 1:52:56Speaker 04

  With, and, and I'm deeply concerned, you know, I leave the politicians to figure it out politically, but as Christians, as ministers, our posture has to change. Our attitude toward everybody, even our enemies.

• 1:53:12Tucker Carlson?

  Especially our enemies, especially our enemies, yeah.

• 1:53:15Speaker 04

  We're not going to be naive and bury our heads in the sands and, you know, pretend that we're not, but God is not calling us to be escapist.

• 1:53:25Tucker Carlson?

  No, and as Jesus himself says, like, loving your friends, loving people who love you, even pagans do that. You don't get points for that. We're required to love our enemies, the people who persecute us.

• 1:53:35Speaker 04

  And engage in the culture, engage in the community with the gospel, because we have a powerful, powerful hope that can transform hearts and minds. And this is the only hope that the Christian can really offer.

• 1:53:49Tucker Carlson?

  Can I ask you one last question, and it's about the third temple? So.

• 1:53:55Tucker Carlson?

  In the world that you've lived in, I didn't fully realize just how in evangelical world you've been since you, how old were you when you came to the US?

• 1:54:01Speaker 04

  I was 18.

• 1:54:03Tucker Carlson?

  18, so you come literally from the West Bank to the United States and you go to Liberty. And a lot of great people, but they have a totally different understanding of what's happening in the place that you grew up than you do, and a totally different theology maybe than you do. It's, it's America, it's different. But one of the ideas that's common among Christian Zionists is that they need, Christians need to help rebuild this thing called the Third Temple.

• 1:54:30Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:54:31Tucker Carlson?

  In Jerusalem. Unfortunately, there's a mosque on the site, one of the holiest places in Islam, Aksa Mosque, but is that something that Christians should want to rebuild the Third Temple? What is that? Where does that idea come from? And what would happen if it were attempted?

• 1:54:46Speaker 04

  Absolutely not. The short answer.

• 1:54:48Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:54:49Speaker 04

  Jesus in Ephesians 2, he knocked down the wall of hostility that separated the Jews and the Gentiles.

• 1:54:54Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:54:55Speaker 04

  Why are we bringing it back up? Why are we building it? There is no point, there is no scripture that points to the fact that Christians need to build the Third Temple. There is no prophecy about the Third Temple. There is no way in scripture about anything close to a Third Temple.

• 1:55:11Tucker Carlson?

  Well, we're doing it. I mean, we're moving toward knocking down the Aksa Mosque and replacing it with a Third Temple. I mean, all things being equal, it's gonna happen. It was just occupied yesterday by a bunch of settlers. So this is happening in slow motion. Christians are paying for it.

• 1:55:28Speaker 04

  Again, they're

• 1:55:29Tucker Carlson?

  What is going on?

• 1:55:30Speaker 04

  They're putting their hopes on earthly matters where I direct them to the faith that Abraham had, where he fixed his eyes on what eternal, the new Jerusalem. In Galatians chapter four, it spells it out really clearly. If you are in Christ, you belong to the free woman, Sarah.

• 1:55:53Speaker 04

  And if you don't belong to Christ, you're still fixated and enslaved by the idea of an earthly Jerusalem. The land matters, yes, we honor Jerusalem, we remember what Christ had done there, it carries deep memories. But the question is, does it have any spiritual significance? Does the temple have any spiritual significance? When Jesus came, He transformed the whole meaning again. You know, John, chapter 1, it says, "Jesus pitched His tent among us; the word became flesh." "The word became flesh; He tabernacled among us." That's the exact word that the Greek language uses to describe Christ's incarnation.

• 1:56:36Speaker 04

  "He tabernacled among us," because He is the locus of the land. If there is anything holy in the Holy Land, it's Jerusalem. If there is anything holy in Jerusalem, it is the temple. If there is anything holy in the temple, it is the Holy of Holies. But guess what happened when Jesus was crucified? That thing got destroyed, split in half, because He is the final destination. Everything in Scripture points to Jesus, not to a third temple. You know, when Jesus ascended and He sent His Holy Spirit, He empowered His disciples to be the temple of the Holy Spirit,

• 1:57:14Speaker 04

  because God does not reside, it's specifically said, it does not reside in a house built with hands and stones. God resides in us, human beings, through the Holy Spirit. So why are we so fixated on erecting a temple that does not have any spiritual significance whatsoever? We are the temple of God. Jesus Himself is the high priest, according to the New Testament. Jesus Himself is the Lamb of God, the sacrifice. And Jesus Himself offered Himself as the sacrifice. So He is the Alpha, and He's the Omega.

• 1:57:56Speaker 04

  He's the Author and the Finisher of our faith, according to our Holy Scripture. And Christians need to be fixated on that holy hope.

• 1:58:10Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you for the time you've spent here. It's amazing conversation. I appreciate it.

• 1:58:13Speaker 04

  Thank you, Tucker.

• 1:58:15Tucker Carlson?

  Thanks for watching the Wednesday edition of the show. We stream live every week, Wednesday 6 PM Eastern on TuckerCarlson.com. Members can watch the show live, join the members only chat and take part in the conversation in real time. We're grateful to be doing it and grateful that you watch it. Thank you.