Roll On: Kristian Blummenfelt, The Ministry of Truth, & Sustainable Self-Growth

Welcome to another edition of ‘Roll On’, wherein Rich Roll and journalist & author Adam Skolnick riff on matters of interest across sports, culture, entertainment, and self-betterment. Specific topics discussed in today’s episode include: Adam's latest NYT piece A Free Diver’s Training Partners: Sharks Outstanding performances from the Ironman World Championships A brief conversation with IMWC Kristian Blummenfelt & his coach Olav Aleksander Bu Should a 6 year old be permitted to run a marathon? Endurance wins: Jackie Hunt-Broersma & William Goodge the implications of overturning Roe v. Wade why Joe Biden's 'Ministry of Truth' is problematic thoughts on how to create sustainable growth; and check-in with coach Chris Hauth Thank you to Tristan from Utah for today’s listener question. If you want your query discussed, drop it on our Facebook Group Page or, better yet, leave a voicemail at (424) 235-4626. Note: We will be recording a sleep specific AMA episode with Dr. Matthew Walker (RRP 600) in the near future. Please submit your seep questions for consideration by sending an e-mail to [email protected] or leaving a voicemail at (424) 235-4626. Reminder that you can watch today’s podcast on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Enjoy! Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:13Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:17Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to Roll On, where the grounded, good-natured, but sometimes cantankerous journalist and author Adam Skolnick and I clip matters of interest from the internet and real life. We opine on sports, culture, entertainment, self-betterment, and occasionally, sometimes against my better instincts, politics. We answer a listener question here and there, and so much more. So today, we got plenty of news from the front lines of endurance, including, we hope, at this point, a very special and exclusive call with the newly-crowned Ironman World Champion Christian Blummenfelt and his coach, Olav Alexander-Bu. We may or may not get a little bit political today. We answer a listener question, and we're going to close with another coaching call

• 2:01Rich Roll?

  check-in with a friend of the podcast, personal friend, Chris House. But first, how goes it, my comrade? Rich, I'm perplexed. Hmm.

• 2:12Adam Skolnick?

  You're into wellness, right?

• 2:15Adam Skolnick?

  Would you describe yourself as a wellness guy?

• 2:18Rich Roll?

  Uh, I don't like labels.

• 2:19Adam Skolnick?

  Okay. But the reason I bring it up-

• 2:22Rich Roll?

  I'm into wellness, yes.

• 2:23Adam Skolnick?

  You're into wellness. I think you're the guy-

• 2:25Rich Roll?

  I'm a wellness influencer.

• 2:28Adam Skolnick?

  You're a well influencer. I think you're the guy, I think I've got, actually, I think I've got a new podcast episode for you, but it's all about the movable itch. You know, like, what is it?

• 2:39Rich Roll?

  That sounds like a book title.

• 2:41Adam Skolnick?

  Right, but like, what is it about the human body where you have an itch on your back? Someone scratches it for you, and then it moves, just so slightly, up or down, sometimes to the side, and then you have to tell them to move, and then they scratch it, and you say harder, and then it moves again, it leaps, frogs around. How come we've never figured out why that happens?

• 3:03Rich Roll?

  I don't know, we should get Andrew Huberman in here.

• 3:05Adam Skolnick?

  That's what I'm thinking, this is a Huberman pod waiting to happen. He's got a guy, you know he's got a guy at Stanford-

• 3:10Rich Roll?

  I'm sure he has an answer for this.

• 3:11Adam Skolnick?

  He's got a guy at Stanford looking at this.

• 3:13Rich Roll?

  What's interesting to me is like, I don't, you know, I don't walk around itching and scratching myself, but when I go to bed at night and I'm lying in bed, and right before I'm about to fall asleep, suddenly I'll have like, an unbearable itch that I have to scratch, and then I do it-

• 3:26Adam Skolnick?

  Right in the middle.

• 3:27Rich Roll?

  And then it's somewhere else after that, and I'm like, I didn't have to do this 10 minutes ago.

• 3:31Adam Skolnick?

  It's my point.

• 3:32Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 3:33Adam Skolnick?

  It's a human, it's a human problem.

• 3:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, this is a, uh, this is one for the ages. I must get to the bottom of this.

• 3:39Adam Skolnick?

  I, I think we gotta do a full pod just on the movable itch.

• 3:43Rich Roll?

  How about a whole series?

• 3:45Adam Skolnick?

  Whole series on it.

• 3:46Rich Roll?

  A six-part limited series?

• 3:47Adam Skolnick?

  Yes, yes.

• 3:48Rich Roll?

  For Netflix?

• 3:50Adam Skolnick?

  Netflix doco.

• 3:51Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 3:52Adam Skolnick?

  Why?

• 3:53Rich Roll?

  All right, well, I know you love sharks.

• 3:56Adam Skolnick?

  I do.

• 3:56Rich Roll?

  We have some shark news today.

• 3:57Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah, I've got a, I've got a couple of, uh, stories out this last week. One came out Thursday, we're recording this on a Monday, it came out the last Thursday for Outside, but it'll be wide, it'll be available wide, uh, for all comers, uh, the same day this pod drops, so that's good news. It's about, it's based on a reporting trip I did to La Paz in Southern Baja, and it's, it's all about- A marine biologist and her pals who started a foundation nonprofit down in Southern Baja to get the shark fishermen who live there to start to see sharks not as to get them to see that they're worth more alive than dead, basically.

• 4:40Adam Skolnick?

  And there's 80-plus shark fishing villages and camps in Southern Baja. There has been for, you know, four or five generations. They're all artisanal fishermen. They just use a line and a hook. They're not going out there with nets. And they've been doing it for generations. They've been sending shark fins to Hong Kong since the 30s. It was never a big problem until outboard motors came along and competition became more fierce. And now they have to go miles offshore. It used to be sharks, they can get them in the bay. Now they have to go miles and miles offshore. They get paid very little because the shark numbers are down so much. I think worldwide, it's 70% of sharks have been killed, basically, that were once here. That's the number I could come across.

• 5:23Adam Skolnick?

  So because of that, the sharks are smaller, the fins are smaller, they're earning about $150 a week doing this kind of job, and it's dangerous. They're going miles offshore in little pongas.

• 5:32Rich Roll?

  To be clear, they're fishing for sharks to cut their fins off and sell them.

• 5:39Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 5:40Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 5:41Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 5:42Rich Roll?

  And they're not really able to make a living doing this. So can we not transition them into some other type of career?

• 5:48Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, that's the whole point of the story.

• 5:50Rich Roll?

  So here's a problem. Like, if you look up on the screen there, I have the article pulled up on outside, but then I come here and it says, "Become a member, unlock this and get other great perks." And I'm like, I don't know that I'm... I tried to log in. I don't think that I... I have so many subscriptions.

• 6:09Adam Skolnick?

  I know.

• 6:10Rich Roll?

  And it's like...

• 6:11Adam Skolnick?

  I'm trying to sell you another one.

• 6:12Rich Roll?

  I know. So I actually didn't read your article.

• 6:14Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 6:15Rich Roll?

  Even though I'm proud of you.

• 6:17Adam Skolnick?

  Proud of you. Thanks for bringing it in, kid.

• 6:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And, you know, you'd think, I don't know. Well, I mean, look, I was on the cover of this magazine, humble brag.

• 6:27Adam Skolnick?

  Oh.

• 6:28Rich Roll?

  So can't they spot me a subscription?

• 6:29Adam Skolnick?

  You know, you'd be...

• 6:30Rich Roll?

  I think I actually do have a subscription. I just don't know what my login credentials are.

• 6:34Adam Skolnick?

  I bought my subscription because even though I've been writing for them for years and years, you know, that's so funny? I would think that as a contributor to any publication, I should just get a free subscription.

• 6:44Rich Roll?

  They should.

• 6:45Adam Skolnick?

  It's never happened.

• 6:46Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 6:47Adam Skolnick?

  No one's ever offered me.

• 6:48Rich Roll?

  Have you asked, though?

• 6:49Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 6:50Rich Roll?

  That should be a perk.

• 6:51Adam Skolnick?

  I'm non-confrontational. I don't want to have that conversation.

• 6:52Rich Roll?

  It might be beneficial to actually be able to read the publication that you're contributing to.

• 6:56Adam Skolnick?

  It should be a perk. It should be like automatically you contribute like maybe not once, but if you contribute two or three times, they should just be feeding it to you.

• 7:03Rich Roll?

  Even the New York Times?

• 7:04Adam Skolnick?

  No, I pay for that.

• 7:05Rich Roll?

  You do?

• 7:06Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. I'm never asked. Maybe I'm gonna start asking.

• 7:09Rich Roll?

  I think you should ask. Stand up for yourself.

• 7:11Adam Skolnick?

  Thank you.

• 7:11Rich Roll?

  Adam Skolnick.

• 7:12Adam Skolnick?

  I will. But that's exactly what the story is about. It's about, it's about the efforts to get people to stop shark fishing. But the real problem there isn't just the fact that they're fishing for sharks and it's, and it's endangering the shark populations. It's that there are mainland Mexico industrial fishing operations that come to Southern Baja and take up these huge drift nets and go in one go, in one day, they can take more tuna than these guys fish for bait when they use tuna for bait for these sharks. They, they get more in one day than these shark fishermen can get in a year. And that's what's destroying the economy and the ecology. And so there is a group of people led by these marine biologists in La Paz that is trying to get the entirety of Southern Baja as one MPA

• 7:57Adam Skolnick?

  that allows for fishing, allows for sport fishing, spearfishing, and artisanal fishing. And so they don't want to take the livelihood away, but it cuts off industrial fishing forever. And that can really do good. So the, the point is to try to get these guys boats that are fit for tourists, to get them tourists to come, to train them, to be able to, to take tourists out to look at the amazing wildlife. I mean, Southern Baja, especially around La Paz, has some of the most amazing wildlife in the world. It's like a confluence of equatorial currents and Alaskan currents that come down from Northern California, from Alaska all the way down past California to Mexico. That confluence means it's like a haven for several species of whale, several species of sharks, whale sharks, sea lions,

• 8:40Adam Skolnick?

  you name it. And so it's an incredible place to go.

• 8:43Rich Roll?

  Obviously under threat by the industrial fishing industry.

• 8:46Adam Skolnick?

  That's right. And the problem is, is that industrial fishing. Businesses and their people who represent them have convinced sport fishermen and artisanal fishermen that MPAs are bad for them, when in reality, the opposite has been proven to be true. So the point here, and it's even not, MPAs aren't even bad for industrial fishermen. It just means they have to pause in certain areas. But if you look at it, guess where a lot of the fishing fleet is? Near the Galapagos. They're right at the edge of the Galapagos National Park. Well, why is that? Because the Galapagos National Park produces such biodiversity that it doesn't support it all. The animals have to move. And so when they move out, you know, you're basically feeding the rest of the ocean with wildlife. So that's why MPAs are great.

• 9:31Adam Skolnick?

  So this gets into a little bit of all of that.

• 9:33Rich Roll?

  Right. And then you followed that up with another article.

• 9:36Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, story came out today. I wrote it actually a little while ago, but they posted it today. It's about a freediver, 105-meter free immersion freediver named Denis Gromaire. He lives in Tekehow in the Tuamotu's in French Polynesia. And I met him out there and just stayed in touch with him. He is amazing because in his spare time, when he's not leading tourists around on, you know, manta dives and training to be a great freediver, he literally goes out there and does the octopus teacher thing with 14-foot tiger sharks.

• 10:09Rich Roll?

  Right. So the New York Times article online

• 10:12Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 10:12Rich Roll?

  opens with this incredible video of him just out there messing around with these tiger sharks. We're watching, you know, a gigantic one swim right past him right now as he sort of pets it.

• 10:24Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, he pets him, he hugs them, he tries to kiss them, doesn't always go well.

• 10:27Rich Roll?

  Well, there's the one story in the article about where, yeah, he leaned down to kiss the shark and realized his head was inside its mouth.

• 10:33Adam Skolnick?

  Yes. I saw that footage.

• 10:34Rich Roll?

  And he narrowly escaped.

• 10:35Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I saw that footage.

• 10:36Rich Roll?

  Being decapitated.

• 10:37Adam Skolnick?

  That's right.

• 10:37Rich Roll?

  By his buddy.

• 10:38Adam Skolnick?

  That's right.

• 10:39Rich Roll?

  Because he names all, he, yeah, he names all the sharks, right?

• 10:42Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 10:43Rich Roll?

  And he knows them, he identifies them, he knows their personalities.

• 10:46Adam Skolnick?

  He's a real wild man. He loved octopus teacher. So like, that is basically a great, I tried to put that reference into the story, it got cut out by three different editors. So I just guess it wasn't a good one.

• 10:56Rich Roll?

  So check that out. That's in print today, right?

• 10:58Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. And what's interesting about Denis Gromaire is he is a product of a single mom, grew up in remote French Polynesia. His older brother, Jody Gromaire, was a world champion Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighter. And his younger brother is Tika Nui Smith, who is one of the great surfers at Chopu in Tahiti.

• 11:17Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow. So like a lineage.

• 11:20Adam Skolnick?

  What a family.

• 11:21Rich Roll?

  Water people.

• 11:21Adam Skolnick?

  Right, yeah.

• 11:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, cool.

• 11:23Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 11:23Rich Roll?

  Um, that's cool. How do you find these people in these stories?

• 11:28Adam Skolnick?

  Uh, you know, I happened to be out in Tahiti and in French Polynesia, went to Tiki How. Um, and I heard about him out there and I got introduced to him. And so basically he took me out on his boat, took April and I out, um, and we cruised around, swam with mantas and saw where he lived and just hung out, did some spearfishing, um, saw a big shark come by when he caught a fish and it that looked like, you know, so that's the biggest, angriest shark I've ever been that close to. It was a, it was a silver tip shark. And I'd never seen, I didn't know, I, I looked like an oceanic white tip to me. It was a big burly shark and its fins were down and it was hunting. And he had just speared a fish and had to pull it out of the water. Down. And then he puts the fish on the boat and then he hands me the spear and he goes, okay, this is your term.

• 12:13Adam Skolnick?

  And then I looked down, there's this silhouette of that giant angry shark is like right below me. I'm like, really?

• 12:18Rich Roll?

  So what does that mean when its fins are down? That's an indication that he's hunting?

• 12:23Adam Skolnick?

  It looked like it, you know, like it looked like, you know, the body language of the shark looked like it was, it was hungry.

• 12:29Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 12:31Rich Roll?

  And you're tasty.

• 12:32Adam Skolnick?

  Right. But usually sharks don't look like that. They look like this. Although its fins are down, but it doesn't look, it looks very calm, right?

• 12:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice, man. Cool. What else are you working on?

• 12:43Adam Skolnick?

  That's it, you know, we're in book world as well, but, uh, that's, that's all I can report on now, Rich. How are you?

• 12:49Rich Roll?

  How are you? I was, I was just waiting for you to add. You know, I'm just, I'm not really listening to you. I'm just waiting until it's my turn to talk, Adam.

• 12:57Adam Skolnick?

  How are you?

• 12:58Rich Roll?

  I'm good. We had a nice Mother's Day yesterday with the kids, which was great. The main thing with me is my back is not doing very well. So about four or five days ago, it just really seized up on me. So I've been in rather excruciating pain that I believe must be exacerbated by the uptick in the swim training that I've been doing.

• 13:19Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 13:19Rich Roll?

  Um, so much so that like I can't sit up in bed or when I sit in a chair, you'll see when we're done with this podcast, when I go to stand up, it's like, I can't stand up straight. It's really painful. And I'm in the middle of undergoing this pretty advanced, high-tech therapy that involve, did I talk about this last time?

• 13:38Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 13:38Rich Roll?

  So I went up to the Bay Area, uh, a couple of weeks ago. To visit this clinic where I was injected with PRP, replacement, replacement therapy, peptides, and also this derivative from placenta. It's kind of like a stem cell analog. And over the course of a four hour period, got dozens of injections in my back, which I was told would not be painful, but turned out to be excruciatingly painful because my muscles.

• 14:06Adam Skolnick?

  Did Samuel Alito authorize that use of placenta?

• 14:09Rich Roll?

  No, we're gonna get to that.

• 14:10Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 14:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, not yet. Soon, I would imagine.

• 14:14Adam Skolnick?

  Do not tell them.

• 14:15Rich Roll?

  Yes, liberty. It was actually very painful because my muscles are so jacked up back there. And it's a long process. I've been told that it could take up to six months. They're relatively optimistic about their ability to kind of help me out. Essentially, I have spondy and my L4 protrudes about a centimeter towards my abdomen. So it's out of whack and it's pinching these nerves and it's causing all kinds of havoc and pain. Spondylathesis, I think is how you say it.

• 14:45Adam Skolnick?

  And what is the placenta cells do?

• 14:48Rich Roll?

  Well, as I understand it, and you know, I probably should have researched this a little bit more to speak more, you know, informed about it. But essentially, it's a solution of sort of like stem cells where they can kind of go repair certain areas and become whatever is needed in order to like, you know, basically solve the problem. So it's basically this solution of these different things that my lower back is now being bathed in, that over time will help regenerate the kind of fluid around the L4 and create a bit more space that relaxes the muscles. And that will, in time, allow that L4 to kind of go back in place where it's meant to.

• 15:29Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 15:30Rich Roll?

  But in the meantime, I'm in a lot of pain and, you know, I'm probably in jeopardy of being able to do this 20 kilometer swim race because I had a big block over the weekend that I was supposed to execute on, but I just, I can barely move right now. It's just not fun.

• 15:45Adam Skolnick?

  You look great. That's a great looking cardigan.

• 15:48Rich Roll?

  I wish I could be in the pool, though.

• 15:49Adam Skolnick?

  I know.

• 15:50Rich Roll?

  You know, and I think it has to do with the turns and the flip turns.

• 15:53Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 15:53Rich Roll?

  It's not necessarily the swimming because I've been swimming a lot and not running for the sole purpose of not doing anything that is creating that kind of jarring impact.

• 16:03Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 16:03Rich Roll?

  But I think pushing off the walls and, you know, when you flip and you arch your back that way, I could tell like I was starting to get a lot of strain doing that. And I think that really exacerbated the situation. So, oh, you got a ping.

• 16:16Adam Skolnick?

  I got a ping.

• 16:17Rich Roll?

  Are these guys ready to talk?

• 16:18Adam Skolnick?

  Just landed. Their flight to Europe is also delayed by an hour, so we have time.

• 16:23Rich Roll?

  Hmm. Well, if they have time, why don't you let them eat?

• 16:26Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 16:26Rich Roll?

  And find a quiet place where they can go and then we'll, we can ping them in like a half an hour, hour or something like that, whatever works. But basically, Olaf just pinged you.

• 16:37Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 16:37Rich Roll?

  They're in the Denver airport. They're going to grab something to eat and then make themselves available to check in, which is a good segue into kind of what we wanted to talk about next in our typical endurance sports check in corner of the show, which is that this past Saturday was Ironman St. George.

• 16:55Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 16:55Rich Roll?

  Which happened to be the 2021 World Championships of Ironman, which is hilarious because we're halfway to 2023 at this point.

• 17:03Adam Skolnick?

  It is hilarious. It is funny.

• 17:04Rich Roll?

  A result of them cancelling Kona during the pandemic. They're still going to be the 2022 World Championships in Kona in October, right?

• 17:11Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 17:11Rich Roll?

  So this is like the delayed world championship from the previous year.

• 17:15Adam Skolnick?

  It's like the Oscars, except the world championship.

• 17:17Rich Roll?

  I guess, right?

• 17:18Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:19Rich Roll?

  So you want to just set the stage for what went down here?

• 17:23Adam Skolnick?

  So basically, it was meant to be kind of the, I guess, put up or shut up time for the Norwegians, right, who've been throwing down incredible times at races. Christian won the Tokyo Gold, then he had the fastest ever full distance Ironman triathlon in Cozumel. Gustav won a race as well at a really, really fast time, Gustav Eden. And so it's supposed to be their time. Are they going to be who everyone says they are or not? I think there was the smack talk from Alistair Brownlee saying, you know, do you believe the hype train or don't believe?

• 17:54Rich Roll?

  No, I don't think that was Brownlee. There was that other British guy who ended up. Who ended up dropping out. So yeah, a lot of these guys ended up not competing. So it was meant to be the showdown between Blummenfelt, Eden, Firdino and possibly Brownlee. But Firdino, Eden and Brownlee were all out.

• 18:11Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, but Firdino, you know, that was a really, but it didn't surprise me because he loves Kona so much. So maybe he's like putting everything, everything on Kona.

• 18:20Rich Roll?

  Maybe. So going into this race, it looked like it was going to be a showdown between Blummenfelt, Lionel Sanders and Cameron Werf.

• 18:27Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 18:28Rich Roll?

  And Blummenfelt just crushed it. He got out of the water, I don't know, like four minutes back or something like that, found himself in no man's land on the bike, a bit behind the lead pack, but ahead of the second pack. And he just kind of waited for Cameron Werf to catch up to him and paced himself off of Cameron, got off the bike and then just killed the run, just crushed.

• 18:51Adam Skolnick?

  I mean, he was, what was he like four minutes back on the bike, four and a half minutes, four forty six behind, finished almost five minutes clear, did his, I think he did a two thirty eight.

• 19:02Rich Roll?

  Right. So he just worked his way through the pack. I don't think he took the lead until like mile eighteen.

• 19:06Adam Skolnick?

  That's right.

• 19:06Rich Roll?

  And he averaged six oh two miles running.

• 19:10Adam Skolnick?

  Six oh two per mile.

• 19:11Rich Roll?

  Five twenty miles around mile twenty.

• 19:13Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:14Rich Roll?

  And the amazing thing about all of this is that he did it with a virus, like he was not a hundred percent.

• 19:19Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 19:20Rich Roll?

  I mean, his coach said he was ninety percent.

• 19:22Adam Skolnick?

  Gustaf couldn't even start.

• 19:24Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, they had the same thing. And didn't Olaf say that, you know, if it hadn't been the world championship, he wouldn't, he wouldn't have started and he like vomited right before the race and vomited afterwards.

• 19:35Adam Skolnick?

  He looked like he was vomiting right at the end, right? When he got there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Olaf said that he would not have started him if it wasn't the world championship. But then the fact that he rocked it so hard. I mean, and it was, I just love the way he finishes these races. He shows so much emotion. The same thing in Tokyo and just like, you know, he wants to be the best. And it's fun to see an athlete that admits that. And then, you know, these guys called their shot, like Olaf. Had said in the article I wrote about these guys that it's going to be like taking candy from a baby to win the Ironman World Championship. I mean, that's huge words for someone who at that point hadn't even done a full distance race yet.

• 20:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 20:10Adam Skolnick?

  And so to see that kind of, you know, I guess you have to go back for old timers, Joe Namath and that kind of thing, like the Babe Ruth, call your shot. Like, it just doesn't happen. It's very rare that it happens. Commentators do it, but athletes tend not to do it, and coaches tend not to do it. But they did it and they backed it up. It's pretty amazing.

• 20:26Rich Roll?

  Right. When you, when you say it out loud, and then you back it up.

• 20:30Adam Skolnick?

  It's amazing.

• 20:31Rich Roll?

  It makes, makes for a pretty great story. And I think this is just the beginning.

• 20:34Adam Skolnick?

  I think so, too. I mean, certainly setting up that way. He's 26 years old, I believe. And then Gustav is also right there. And we'll see what he's got. I mean, shout out to Lionel Sanders for an amazing finish. I mean, just an incredible.

• 20:47Rich Roll?

  He's an animal. And it's crazy that he can run as well as he does because he's got this wacky form.

• 20:52Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I love it. I love his form.

• 20:53Rich Roll?

  He's got an amazing backstory. I've been trying to get him on the podcast forever because his backstory is unbelievable. And now he spends a lot of time training in Arizona, but he's from Canada. And traditionally, he spends most of the year in his basement, where he has an infinity pool, and a treadmill, and his bike on a trainer. And he never leaves this tiny room. And he does all of his training indoors in his basement.

• 21:17Adam Skolnick?

  Like in a small pool with like a treadmill thing?

• 21:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you know, those little, like, those little, you know, pools where they have a circular current or whatever. So he has, it's literally like this setup that's just, you know, in this room.

• 21:28Adam Skolnick?

  In Tucson.

• 21:29Rich Roll?

  Essentially, no, no, in Canada.

• 21:31Adam Skolnick?

  In Canada, okay.

• 21:32Rich Roll?

  Where it's inclement most of the time. He can't ride outdoors. So, you know, when it's snowing outside, he's just in this room for like nine hours a day.

• 21:39Adam Skolnick?

  Crazy.

• 21:39Rich Roll?

  Training. Now he does, I think he's in, he spends time in Palm Springs and in Arizona. He does lots of camps there.

• 21:45Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 21:45Rich Roll?

  So I don't know how much he's doing that now, but there are these amazing videos that Talbot Cox made way back in the day. They are like a day in the life of Lionel Sanders. And he's just in this room, you know, just like, and he can suffer, you know, he just pushes himself so hard.

• 22:01Adam Skolnick?

  Clearly.

• 22:01Rich Roll?

  Also, shout out to Cameron Werff. This guy, for people who don't know. He's just an extraordinary athlete.

• 22:08Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 22:09Rich Roll?

  He is a pro cyclist, a domestique for Ineos. And he's been living in Europe, riding races for this team. And he just got back like from racing Paris-Roubaix, where he helped his team win. He was the domestique supporting Dylan Van Barle, who took the win and like left that and just goes right to St. George to compete in the Ironman World Championships. He's like, I haven't swum, you know, at all. Like he's, you know, he hasn't been focused on Ironman really at all. And shout out to Cameron for being a semi Calabasas native. He spends a lot of time out here training. He was out here training with Garen Thomas, who was the 2018 Tour de France winner. So he's a bit of a temporary local out in these parts.

• 22:53Adam Skolnick?

  Nice.

• 22:53Rich Roll?

  And if you're out riding your bike, you probably have seen him riding around.

• 22:56Adam Skolnick?

  You gotta, you gotta, you gotta get him into the studio.

• 22:59Rich Roll?

  I'd love to have him on.

• 23:00Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 23:00Rich Roll?

  So Cameron, if you're listening, next time you swing through LA, let's make that happen.

• 23:04Adam Skolnick?

  Shout out also, oh, well, two other, one last thing on Christian. He's the first to ever win the Olympic gold and the Ironman title in a calendar year.

• 23:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 23:12Adam Skolnick?

  So that's amazing. Only the second ever to have both. But I think there was several years between Jan winning the gold and then winning the Ironman. So it doesn't usually happen that quickly. Happened for them. Shout out to Daniela Reeve, her fifth world title. She finished in eight hours and 34 minutes. Third most titles ever.

• 23:28Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 23:29Adam Skolnick?

  On the women's side. She won by almost nine minutes.

• 23:32Rich Roll?

  Right. And in, in the women's race, the big omission was Lucy Charles Barkley, who did not compete due to an injury. So awesome. Let's, why don't we pivot now to our call with Christian and his coach.

• 23:46Adam Skolnick?

  Olaf Alexander-Bouw.

• 23:47Rich Roll?

  Live from the Denver airport.

• 23:52Adam Skolnick?

  There they are, the champion.

• 23:55Kristian Blummenfelt?

  How are you doing?

• 23:56Rich Roll?

  How are you guys doing? Thank you so much for taking time. You're at the airport. You got a layover and I appreciate you just taking a couple of minutes and finding a quiet space to talk to us. So we won't take up too much of your time, but we're happy to be able to congratulate you. What an amazing performance. And we're anxious to kind of hear your thoughts in the wake of making history in the triathlon world.

• 24:19Kristian Blummenfelt?

  Oh, yes, as well. Thank you so much. It was quite tricky kind of preparation, I would say. Like I didn't win the first one in Kostma like six months ago now. And I thought I would feel more prepared coming into this one. But.

• 24:36Speaker 03

  I think we maybe did a little bit too much time up in altitude, so I didn't feel too fresh coming to St. George. We came three weeks early to just nail the course and do the preparation there, but then I managed to get a cold like first week. So it was kind of a feeling that I hadn't done everything I could. Like I was kind of, I wasn't sure how my fitness would be or how my body would be responding. Looks like I was able to do like one solid bike ride, like went through the whole course the week before, felt alright, and the same on the run. So that kind of gave me the confidence that on race day I would

• 25:19Speaker 03

  be, I could be good. And yeah, had a good day, I would say, especially on the bike and the run. I was able to produce good power and was very strong until the end. So happy with that.

• 25:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think that's an understatement. Well, Olaf, you had said, you went on record saying that, you know, Christian was not well, he was fighting a virus, Gustav had to drop out for having the same illness. And Christian, you vomited before the race? I mean, Olaf, you had said he was at 90%. Sounds like he might have even been operating at less than 90% and still capable of, you know, putting in the performance that we all witnessed.

• 25:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, up in altitude, there were actually several people starting to get sick. Some people we even got COVID. So we were actually a little bit afraid that people had been catching COVID or guys have got COVID. But we did, I'll say, the testing and everything just to ensure that that was not the case. So we got confirmed that it was a cold. So Gustav was the first one to, or he got it from somebody up there then. But he eventually, we dropped it, I'll say, we reduced the training quite significantly, focused on getting him back as quickly as possible. And then being able to nail in like one good preparatory session

• 26:40Speaker 03

  that we had optimized from after our leading into Cozumel. And then when we came to St. George, of course, we were really surprised by the dry conditions. And of course, this is challenging, especially because it dries out the mucous membranes. So you are less protected from viruses and bacteria. Christian, when we landed, got sick and actually got quite, I would say, got a quite severe cold. So actually not only upper respiratory system, but actually also the lower, so in the lungs as well. Uh coughing slime and yeah, it was pretty severe. Of course, you can't do anything than just bring down and focus on getting as quickly as possible fresh.

• 27:23Speaker 03

  Went to the doctor, did all kinds of blood works uh to again also ensure that it's not COVID, that it's not any viruses that can potentially. The last thing you want to do is to push yourself when you have this, or let's say you are having an infection that can potentially cause myocarditis or other long-term issues for you. So I wanted to rule out all that and then uh like daily dialogue with the team doctor in Norway as well. And uh as Christian was starting to recover, uh unfortunately Gustav is maybe is a little bit more exposed because he also has asthma. So coming to dry climates like St. George, um we needed to try to moisturize the air, got humidifiers and so on um.

• 28:08Adam Skolnick?

  Well, Christian, imagine if you weren't sick before an Ironman, what you could do.

• 28:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:15Adam Skolnick?

  That's two races, right? You had the stomach thing in Cozumel and then this.

• 28:19Speaker 03

  Hopefully, third time lucky, it's not what we're saying when we're coming to Hawaii. That that would be my race.

• 28:26Adam Skolnick?

  Um you had an amazing race, Christian. Congratulations. What was going through your mind when you were kind of in the no man's land on the bike? And how close to, according to plan, did everything go for you?

• 28:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, so the swim, I I didn't should have been up there on the swim, but I felt just so weak uh standing there on the start line. So before the race, we had five minutes anywhere where we could warm up. And after two minutes, I started kind of vomiting because my throat was so kind of bad and irritated. So I felt quite like that I wasn't really on fire when I was waiting for the gun to go. And had a weak swim, two minutes or so behind. Tried to catch up, but just lost time on the first forty, fifty K on the bike. Uh so we went from like two thirty to three thirty. And then I had a camera behind me and or like forty seconds behind.

• 29:22Speaker 03

  But I thought, okay, now I'm just gonna lap my computer and.

• 29:25Kristian Blummenfelt?

  Just refocus with the guys behind and then give it one final shot for the race. Like it's almost like I was giving up, but I also tried to think that it's not over until it's over. A typical Ironman mantra and just focusing on doing nutrition, getting in a lot of liquid and then carbs and more than just to be prepared for the final half marathon.

• 29:52Rich Roll?

  So Olaf, during the race, what is the sort of approach that you're taking as a coach? What are you looking for? What is the data that you're trying to extract from Christian's performance? And when you guys get home and start, you know, wading through all of it, what are you looking to learn and hone going into Kona in the fall?

• 30:13Speaker 03

  I think during the race, because of the conditions and Christian has a not being fully recovered from the race, Gustav of course still too sick to race or where it was not safe for him to race. I actually didn't know what to expect going in because it's, there are so many things that can can happen. And also because there was a lot of other people also that were sick. I was actually, I, one of the things that I was pretty sure about was that the dynamics of the race would be quite different than if you had like a lot of the like favorites that was all expected, every sort of all the start line, because then people don't want to take equally big of a risk now.

• 30:57Speaker 03

  Suddenly when a lot of them were out, the podium is more open and people are more willing to take risk. And it's like more make it or break it. So actually I, we, I worked together with Adam, the manager, and we also had several of our tech partners there. So I was discovered, they were, they were asking of course the same question and I actually said that I, we just have to see. First he needs to come out of the swim. If he comes out of the swim, okay, and he goes on the bike, of course I get a glimpse and you, I could see him. Then you get at least a little bit of feel of whether he's like completely deflated or at least it's still game on.

• 31:39Speaker 03

  And then already for the first part of the bike, you get a good idea at least of, okay, how is the field? Because it's more than looking at the tracker, because I don't have, I don't have access to real time data. Uh, so I have to follow the tractor and see how the rest of the field plays out. And uh, when I saw that first, of course, I saw the five guys in the front, they were riding hard. I knew Christian, what, what numbers he had been doing leading into the race. So, and I know uh, how strong he is. So I knew that if people were starting to go much faster than Christian, I knew also they were probably over pacing. But again, he's sick, so you don't know whether they are going faster because they are going at an ordinary pace

• 32:23Speaker 03

  or whether it's Christian going a little bit slower because he doesn't feel hundred percent. But then when I saw Cameron Werth coming up and Sanders coming up, and I still see that the front group of the five guys are still making uh, uh, room down to Christian, Cameron and Sanders. I knew Sanders was uh, fresh, he had, he, he was uh, healthy. Cameron uh, was healthy, so I used them a little bit as an approach to understand a little bit how fast the front group was riding. And then also I saw that one of the guys that has been running or been quite strong before, like uh, Daniel Beckigor. I saw that he was starting to drop down to fifth position in the group and that was like an indicator for me

• 33:06Speaker 03

  because he knew he had to run probably fast also to be able to be in position to do something. And when I saw he fell down, then was sitting on the back of the group, then, and then I was thinking, okay, now he's, he's falling down to fifth position, he's been riding too hard. He needs to try or try to basically recover as much as possible, so he's in position to be able to run. Um, and then when they came off on the, out of the bike and, and, and uh, started to run, of course, uh, Christian looked uh, looked sharp. Uh, so then I was pretty confident already that, okay, Christian is gonna bring this home.

• 33:42Adam Skolnick?

  So Christian, um, what is that like for you? Are you getting communications at all from Olav? Are you just kind of, are you getting splits on your watch? I saw you looking at your watch a lot on the run. What were you looking at and how did it feel to finally pass uh, the leader at mile eighteen?

• 33:59Kristian Blummenfelt?

  Yeah, so throughout the whole bike, like you get a lot of splits from the people on the course, but it's very like, you can't really trust the splits, whether they're using just the, taking the splits themselves, which, or if they are kind of just using old splits from the. A live tracker, so it's quite confusing. Uh, and there was only two, like out and back section where I could take this bit myself. Uh, so, but the, for the whole bike ride, basically, I was just kind of getting negative feedback. Like I was losing a little bit and a little bit and a little bit until maybe the hundred K. And from there, we were kind of staying within the four and a half minute gap and was stabilizing there. But ideally, I wanted to kind of reach up again.

• 34:45Kristian Blummenfelt?

  Uh, so coming into the run, I wasn't sure like how my run legs would be, but I felt quite smoked at the top part of the bike leg there, bringing up the two big climbs. But I was thinking that if I go out on the run on my limits, then uh at least it's kind of giving it a try and at least running for a podium. Because no way that all five of those guys will be kind of able to put the marathon together. We saw like, I was expecting some, some of them to blow up. Uh, so in the beginning, I was just running for a podium and

• 35:25Kristian Blummenfelt?

  for the first ten K, I think I was running in the same speed as Brendan Curry, the guy from New Zealand. Uh, and I knew that he could be a good runner and I kind of thought, okay, thinking that he's maybe out of territory, I, I can't really catch him. But then on the way back again, I suddenly kind of reached back two minutes out of those four and a half. And then I was only two and a half minutes behind with a half marathon to go. And that was kind of the moment when I think so that I can actually start winning this. Got like the pictures in my head of myself, uh, winning the race. And I just had to kind of keep, keep focus and make sure that I still did the nutrition and hydration correctly.

• 36:07Kristian Blummenfelt?

  And took as much fluid as I could in the aid station just to stay cool.

• 36:12Adam Skolnick?

  Hmm, amazing.

• 36:14Rich Roll?

  So Adam and I were talking before the podcast about how cool and rare it is when somebody says, here's what's going to happen, here's what we're going to do, and then they actually go out and do it, right? So you did that. The proof is in the pudding. There's been a lot written about and spoken about this unique approach to training and racing that you guys have cultivated in this amazing partnership through kind of, you know, really understanding sports science and next level data mining and all the interesting things that you're doing. And that, of course, has resulted in a bit of a backlash. There's a lot of shit talking out there about the Norwegian train. So I want to give you the opportunity to slap back a little bit. Anything you want to say to all those detractors out

• 36:58Rich Roll?

  there? And any predictions about Kona and the kind of season that's continuing to unfold?

• 37:04Kristian Blummenfelt?

  I was actually thinking like two weeks ago that if I'm able to win Harris and George, then nobody has a chance in Hawaii.

• 37:14Rich Roll?

  There it is.

• 37:16Kristian Blummenfelt?

  We will see in five months' time if that's correct, because I didn't really feel prepared. And yeah, I will be prepared coming to Hawaii.

• 37:27Rich Roll?

  There you have it.

• 37:28Adam Skolnick?

  Very exciting. Congratulations to both of you guys. It's really a treat. Thanks for, thanks for making this work.

• 37:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, absolutely. Really appreciate you guys taking the time. It's been so fun cheering you from afar and watching, you know, all of this progress kind of unfold. Can't wait to see what you do in Kona. And at some point, when you guys find yourselves in LA, we'd love to have you in the studio for a full-blown podcast, if you can make the time.

• 37:55Kristian Blummenfelt?

  That would be great.

• 37:56Speaker 03

  Thank you. Yeah.

• 37:58Rich Roll?

  All right. Hopefully, there's a parade waiting for you in the Bergen Airport when you land.

• 38:02Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 38:02Speaker 03

  We are landing just before midnight tomorrow, so.

• 38:07Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 38:08Adam Skolnick?

  Travel safe, guys.

• 38:09Rich Roll?

  Thanks, gentlemen.

• 38:10Kristian Blummenfelt?

  Bye.

• 38:11Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 38:11Rich Roll?

  Bye-bye.

• 38:19Rich Roll?

  Wasn't that awesome, talking to Christian and Olaf?

• 38:21Adam Skolnick?

  It was. It was amazing.

• 38:24Rich Roll?

  We're laughing because we haven't recorded it yet. We're pretending like we just had that experience.

• 38:28Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 38:29Rich Roll?

  But you will, you, the audience member, will have had that experience.

• 38:32Adam Skolnick?

  You've had it. We have not.

• 38:33Rich Roll?

  I hope it was good.

• 38:34Adam Skolnick?

  I hope it was good for you.

• 38:35Rich Roll?

  There are a couple more stories from the world of endurance. We got to talk about this six-year-old kid who ran the Flying Pig Marathon in Cincinnati.

• 38:44Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 38:44Rich Roll?

  What's your hot take?

• 38:48Adam Skolnick?

  It's not really my business on whether a certain six-year-old kid runs the marathon. I'm not going to be outraged by it or celebrated. It's all, none of my business. Is that a good hot take?

• 38:58Rich Roll?

  That is a hot take because you're kind of in the middle.

• 39:01Adam Skolnick?

  I'm like, yeah, carry on, carry on with your lives. I will not judge all of you.

• 39:07Rich Roll?

  This sort of lit up the internet. The other week, a lot of people had had a lot to say about this, including people like Kara Goucher. I had Steve Magnus in here the other day, who's an elite track and field coach. He had some not-so-nice words about-

• 39:23Adam Skolnick?

  Is it a bad thing to do?

• 39:24Rich Roll?

  Well, at six years old, it's not a great idea.

• 39:27Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 39:27Rich Roll?

  And I think there was some indication, obviously, I wasn't there. I don't know the parents. The parents are defending their decision. But there was some video and some sense that the kid was crying and like not into it. And like, they kind of urged him to complete it and all of that. Whether or not that's true or not, I'm not sure. But it's certainly somewhat controversial. And I, you know, I don't think you can make the argument that it's healthy for a six-year-old to run a marathon. Certainly, if there's pressure on that young person, apparently, it's a family full of very active people who are strivers and they all did the marathon together. So was there pressure on this young person to complete it in order to kind of get that parental approval? Who knows?

• 40:12Rich Roll?

  But maybe not wise. I think it would be prudent for race organizers to be more conscious about age minimums and, you know, protecting the young people out there. So I just, you know, I'm all for like getting young people out there and active and doing challenges, but I just don't think that at that age, something that challenging is in the child's best interest.

• 40:38Adam Skolnick?

  Fair enough.

• 40:39Rich Roll?

  That's my hot take.

• 40:40Adam Skolnick?

  Good.

• 40:41Rich Roll?

  Can we celebrate? Jackie Hunt Broersma, she completed her 104 marathons in 100 consecutive days.

• 40:48Adam Skolnick?

  Unbelievable.

• 40:49Rich Roll?

  Setting the record for the most marathons run on consecutive days by a woman.

• 40:55Rich Roll?

  And she did it as an amputee. She's been an amputee for five years. She lost the lower part of her left leg to cancer. She's also 46 years old and a mom. And she did it to raise money. And she raised quite a bit of money. By latest amount, her GoFundMe, it looks like she's raised $194,080. And those funds are directed towards this amputee prosthetics charity called Amputee Blade Runners. Because those blades, like that you see her, if you're watching this on YouTube, the kind of blade that she's running on.

• 41:33Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 41:33Rich Roll?

  Are super expensive. They're like 10 to 20 grand each. So, and insurance doesn't necessarily cover them. So, you know, to be able to create a fund that will make that more widely accessible to other active minded amputees, I think is pretty cool.

• 41:49Adam Skolnick?

  I agree.

• 41:49Rich Roll?

  And super inspiring. She was sharing the whole thing on social media every day.

• 41:53Adam Skolnick?

  Unreal.

• 41:53Rich Roll?

  Another marathon. Fantastic. Shout out to RXR Bar that matched donations up to $104,000, which is what they donated to her GoFundMe. So if you want to learn more about Jackie, if you want to support her GoFundMe, there's links in the show notes. You can find her at NCrunnerjackie, J-A-C-K-Y, on Instagram. And there's a bunch of news stories and we'll link those up in the show notes as well, including this piece in ESPN, which is pretty cool. So.

• 42:22Adam Skolnick?

  Very cool piece.

• 42:23Rich Roll?

  So, much love, Jackie.

• 42:25Adam Skolnick?

  Yes. And shout out to moms. I didn't get to do my Mother's Day thing. She's a mom, so I'm going to take my opportunity. She used to like get the kids to school and then she was going off on marathons every day. Like, that was her.

• 42:35Rich Roll?

  She'd drop her kid off at school and then she'd run a marathon and try to finish it in time to go pick her kid up.

• 42:40Adam Skolnick?

  Right. And so I, I just want to say, if it wasn't for you moms, we'd all be still, we'd be cavemen. If it wasn't for the moms, we'd all still be cavemen, is my point. At least, the males would.

• 42:54Rich Roll?

  Well, you wouldn't exist.

• 42:56Adam Skolnick?

  Well, there's that. But I mean, I don't mean the biological function of motherhood.

• 43:00Rich Roll?

  Oh, you just mean, uh, unrefined.

• 43:04Adam Skolnick?

  We'd be wild beasts.

• 43:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I hear you with that.

• 43:07Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. I bet even like. The first cave painter, if it was a male, I bet the first cave painter was just like this goth vegan caveman that didn't want to go hunting.

• 43:20Rich Roll?

  I doubt vegan.

• 43:21Adam Skolnick?

  And, and, and just lays it around the cave until his wife said, you know what? Do something useful.

• 43:28Rich Roll?

  Either you paint that cave or you're out of here.

• 43:33Adam Skolnick?

  Do something with your time. I did not marry you for this.

• 43:36Rich Roll?

  Right. Um, let's talk about William Gooch again.

• 43:41Adam Skolnick?

  You love William Gooch.

• 43:42Rich Roll?

  So we, we brought him up the other week because he is the model slash ultra runner slash hype beast dude who supported Robbie Ballinger in his effort to outlast the Tesla in the hill country of Texas the other week. But Robbie had previously supported William in his effort to complete 48 marathons in 30 days, which was a challenge that he set out to accomplish to memorialize his mother who died of cancer and to raise money for the Macmillan Cancer Support, which is a cancer charity in the UK. And there's a documentary that just came out about the 4830. It's called 4830.

• 44:24Rich Roll?

  You can find it on Amazon. Here's a, if you're watching on YouTube, here's a, here's a little link to the film. William posted a trailer for the video on his Instagram that I shared the other day. And it's pretty cool. So shout out to William. Check out the movie and all sales of the movie or, or rental fees for the movie go directly to Macmillan Cancer Support. So it's, it's basically a charitable affair and a cool movie to boot. Also, I thought it was cool that he's a Whoop athlete and Whoop has this blog post where they chronicled the strain of running 48 marathons in 30 days. So they kind of tell his story. And then they have all of his data, which is pretty interesting to kind of take a look

• 45:07Rich Roll?

  at. It's also cool how Whoop is doing more and more of this. They like they've got Whoops on a lot of the cyclists from these one day classics. And then you can kind of go and look at the data and see what the strain is and all of that sort of stuff, which I think is

• 45:20Adam Skolnick?

  If you want to geek out on your favorite athletes.

• 45:22Rich Roll?

  All that kind of stuff.

• 45:22Adam Skolnick?

  I like that. That's really cool.

• 45:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What else you got for me?

• 45:25Adam Skolnick?

  I got this wonderful surf photography book. It's an art book by Clark Little, The Art of the Waves. Clark Little is a, one of the great surf photographers. Came up, I think, with the Kelly Slater crew and all them. And Kelly Slater actually does, has a really well-written foreword to this book. And it's quite something. A lot of it is shore break. There's some landscape stuff, but I mean, the overarching idea is to get the reader or viewer into a barrel. And he does that so many different ways. Like, I've never actually, you can see it in films, you kind of see it, but like, there's something about the still photography of actually getting to, to get that perspective of being barreled,

• 46:07Adam Skolnick?

  which most of us will never experience. So I love that about this.

• 46:12Rich Roll?

  That's exactly what it looks like when I'm in the barrel.

• 46:14Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. This is, this is what it looks like when Rich is getting barreled. So I love it. I think it's really a great piece of work. The writing is exceptional. It's by Jamie Brissick does a lot of the writing, or does, I guess, with, with Clark. They collaborated, so congratulations.

• 46:31Rich Roll?

  Did it just come out?

• 46:32Adam Skolnick?

  Just came out.

• 46:32Rich Roll?

  Oh, nice.

• 46:33Adam Skolnick?

  It's available everywhere. Congratulations to Clark and thanks for the book. It's awesome.

• 46:39Rich Roll?

  And you got one more thing you wanted to share, right?

• 46:41Adam Skolnick?

  And then the month of May, 100 Mile Challenge. So, there is a nonprofit called Give Back Homes. They are a charity founded and run by two former TOMS employees, one, a guy named Blake Andrews and Caroline Pinal, who's a Rich Roll Podcast listener, sister of Priscilla Vega, friend of mine, and who does PR in the environmental and social entrepreneurial space. And they basically came up with a Tom's style business, well, it's not business. Theirs is a nonprofit where they take the profits from real estate companies and they use them to build homes for, you know, poor, disadvantaged, marginal communities and families in the U.S. and abroad. A lot of times it's in Central America. And so they partnered

• 47:21Adam Skolnick?

  with real estate agents, brokerages, companies. The agency, which is a Southern California real estate agency, was their first partnership and they have decided to, the agency is raising money through this month of May 100 mile challenge. They have a group on the Nike Run app and that group is where you can kind of join. And it's not too late, even though it's already May, it's not too late. And a lot of you runners can throw down 100 miles in three weeks. So the idea is you give $30 donation minimum on the agency's website and we have the link for you and that $30 donation, then you can also join. So you could also just donate. I've donated. I'm not in the Nike Run group, but I'm going to do 100 miles. You can follow that. That's going to happen for me on Strava. I just

• 48:05Adam Skolnick?

  don't carry my phone with me everywhere. So I'm not doing the Run group, but you could do it any way you like. And even Caroline has said, if you're curious about joining one of these build out trips, they do them all the time. They call them, I guess, groups of volunteers. That's who builds them. And so you can join. They're right now in El Salvador in one week, building some homes. And so if you, it's like a Habitat for Humanity thing.

• 48:28Rich Roll?

  Right. Like a Jimmy Carter.

• 48:29Adam Skolnick?

  Right, right, right.

• 48:31Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 48:31Adam Skolnick?

  So that's that.

• 48:32Rich Roll?

  How long does it take them to build a home?

• 48:34Adam Skolnick?

  I guess they build several homes in a week.

• 48:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 48:36Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 48:37Rich Roll?

  Because if she's there May 5th to 9th.

• 48:39Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 48:39Rich Roll?

  Like, that's only four days.

• 48:41Adam Skolnick?

  They're going to have some homes built.

• 48:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:43Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. I don't know how or why.

• 48:45Rich Roll?

  That's a great idea.

• 48:45Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, it's cool, right?

• 48:46Rich Roll?

  Nice. And do we want to throw her email? She put her email. You put her email on the outline.

• 48:52Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. So Caroline at GiveBackHomes.com. If you're, if you're interested, if you don't go to the show notes, if you're interested in these trips, want to be a part of it, Caroline, spelled the traditional way, at GiveBackHomes.com.

• 49:07Rich Roll?

  Cool.

• 49:08Adam Skolnick?

  There you go.

• 49:08Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, why don't we turn our focus and attention to, you know, current events, things that are on everybody's mind right now. Obviously, the biggest news story, at least in the United States, is what's happening with the potential overturning of Roe versus Wade. This is what everybody's talking about. This leaked draft opinion in Dobbs versus Jackson Women's Health Organization found its way to Politico, and that story was published about a week ago, I think. It lit the internet on fire and has really monopolized the news cycle. And, look, you know, how do we talk about abortion?

• 49:48Rich Roll?

  How do we talk about the right to choose, the right to life, and balance those considerations in a way that's nuanced and respectful? I mean, everybody has their opinion on this and their philosophical perspective. I'm certainly not here to change anybody's mind. I happen to be pro-choice. I have been for a very long time. I believe in a woman's right to choose. And the fact that this draft decision, which we have every reason to believe, well, it's been legitimized by Alito as the real thing. Obviously, it's a draft, so whatever happens and when it gets published will, I assume, be at least slightly different than what we've all seen to date, is going to change the lay of the land in terms of a woman's right to choose.

• 50:33Rich Roll?

  And I think there are far-reaching implications to this. I think it's interesting, listen, I'm no constitutional scholar, but I did take constitutional law. I got a B in law school in it.

• 50:44Adam Skolnick?

  So you're getting, you're now getting some analysis from a guy that got a B in constitutional law.

• 50:49Rich Roll?

  A B in con law. So basically, what I'm saying is, don't listen to me.

• 50:51Adam Skolnick?

  Take it away.

• 50:52Rich Roll?

  But I do think it's, you know, rather than like having a hyperbolic conversation about this, like, let's look at what this decision was premised upon. And I think it's interesting that the opinion emanates from a perspective of not being persuaded by the due process clause of the 14th Amendment, which is kind of what Roe versus Wade rests on, the idea that within the due process clause...

• 51:17Rich Roll?

  There is this right to liberty and how strictly or broadly do we construe what liberty is? Does it? Can it be inferred from the founders or from the constitutional text that from that we can create this zone of privacy? Right? Well, Roe versus Wade says yes. Alito and the five justices who are overturning Roe versus Wade say not so fast. It's a much stricter constitutional interpretation, which is what conservatives do. They're strict constitutionalists. So this is what they're basing this opinion on. It's also interesting that it is a shirking of stare decisis. Stare decisis being this preference that we give to settled law.

• 52:01Rich Roll?

  Like if it's settled, we give it respect and we're reluctant to overturn something that has been properly considered in the past. In the past, when old settled law decisions have been reversed, particularly in the civil rights sphere, it's traditionally been to expand rights. But here we have, for I think the very first time, a shirking of stare decisis deployed to restrict rights.

• 52:27Adam Skolnick?

  And that's settled law, meaning the Supreme Court has ruled and then sometimes it was challenged and then ruled again. So after two rulings, is that considered settled law?

• 52:36Rich Roll?

  I mean, I guess it depends on how you interpret that. But in the case of Roe versus Wade, we're talking decades.

• 52:41Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 52:42Rich Roll?

  It's been 40 or 50 years of it being considered settled law. And interestingly, in the confirmation hearings of many of these Trump appointees, they commented that Roe versus Wade was settled law.

• 52:55Adam Skolnick?

  I know. They lied.

• 52:57Rich Roll?

  They said that, and now here we are.

• 52:59Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 53:00Rich Roll?

  You know, Trump packing the Supreme Court. This was the plan all along, and now we're seeing the results of, you know, those seeds that were sown quite some time ago. I think what's also interesting about this is the extent to which This could ultimately unravel other rights like same-sex marriage. I know you have thoughts on that.

• 53:20Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 53:21Rich Roll?

  And I think it's important, just so we're all on the same page and understand what we're talking about here, this doesn't outlaw abortion, it just prevents the federal government from making federal law regarding the policing of abortion. So essentially allows states to write their own laws.

• 53:36Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 53:36Rich Roll?

  It's going to trigger laws in states that have laws that are pre-existing that will go into effect upon publication. And of course, this will have a disproportionate impact on poor people and people of color, particularly, obviously, in red states.

• 53:50Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 53:50Rich Roll?

  And I think it's interesting that this more restrictive or limited read of liberty, or how we're defining liberty, or thinking about liberty, the parameters of liberty, are inconsistent with the other issues that conservatives or the right tend to care about. Like, they want liberty when it comes to opposing mandates, for example, we've all seen that. And yet, when it comes to

• 54:13Adam Skolnick?

  You mean vaccine and mask mandates?

• 54:14Rich Roll?

  Women's bodies and the unborn child, they want to undercut the woman's liberty. So there is an inconsistency in that perspective or prioritization of liberty, depending upon, who would be embodying that liberty.

• 54:27Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 54:27Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 54:28Adam Skolnick?

  And also, and I mean, obviously, it's a different amendment, but right to bear arms, they want liberty when it comes to guns, they want liberty when it comes to their choices they're in favor of, and they don't want liberty in this case. And, you know, there is some quid pro quo, because the people who say, "It's my body, my choice," when it comes to abortion, aren't really stoked when people didn't want to wear masks. So there is a back and forth gray area.

• 54:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:52Adam Skolnick?

  But, you know.

• 54:52Rich Roll?

  Because human beings are inconsistent and emotional and irrational when it comes to these sorts of things.

• 54:58Adam Skolnick?

  And you have, what, it looks like 19 states already have laws that will go into effect after this thing is published. 22 to 26 states might have some issue.

• 55:09Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 55:09Adam Skolnick?

  I think that there is, there's still going to be, like, morning-after pills still on the market in those states. Let's just kind of put out there, there's still access to prescription drugs that could help assist in unwanted pregnancy cases.

• 55:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but I think it's interesting, because in a certain way you can say, well, we're moving backwards. We're going back to the 1930s. But it's not a situation in which there's going to be coat hangers and back alleyways. Like, a lot of abortions are, as I understand it, conducted through prescription, like through a medication, a pharmaceutical, right? So the question then becomes, how restrictive is that medication? And or what does the black market look like in terms of getting your hands on that medication? And what happens when somebody who isn't qualified is administering that medication or taking that medication? Because people aren't going to stop getting abortions. It's just a question of how they're going to be getting abortions. And I think it's interesting that we're seeing these, it's almost like, well, I think now that this is out,

• 56:08Rich Roll?

  all these people feel emboldened to start talking about other laws that are even more extreme, like preventing pregnant women who are in these states where abortion is going to be outlawed from crossing state lines. You've seen news stories about the potential illegality of contraception, IUDs, condoms. I mean, I can't imagine that, but is this the world that we're now entering? I'm not sure, but it is strange. It's strange, and it is a law that I think, you know, I think this decision really took everybody by surprise. I think everybody just thought this is settled law. The day would never come when Roe versus Wade would be overturned. And yet, this has been the conservative agenda for a very long time. And now they're seeing it, you know, finally come to fruition.

• 56:52Adam Skolnick?

  It's happened. I think there's a couple of things. There are going to be more children. There's an economist at Middlebury College in Vermont named Caitlin Knowles Myers, who has studied for 15 years the impact of restrictive abortion laws on women. And she wrote a paper in 2017 that basically expanded access to abortion has reduced teen motherhood by 34%, reduced teen brides by 20%. She estimates 75,000 more births within a year to people who have otherwise considered abortion. The big thing that I keep hearing, and I think is legitimate, is you are basically, because of this one particular opinion, That, let's face it, is rooted in religion.

• 57:36Adam Skolnick?

  You are now forcing, potentially forcing, women to carry a baby for nine months, deliver that baby, and in some cases, unless they're, you know, okay with trying to put it up for adoption, which is its own traumatic experience, then raising the child sometimes as a single mom. So it's like, you are controlling the life of women because of your religious beliefs. How is that any different from some of the stuff that we're outraged about? I mean, it's outrageous. It is what it is. I don't look down on people's religious beliefs, but I don't expect your religious belief to then impact me. And so, that's where I look at that, and I'm not an alarmist, so this idea that, you

• 58:20Adam Skolnick?

  know, same-sex marriage is next and contraception is after that, I don't actually think that will happen. I think that's, I don't even think same-sex marriage is going to be overturned, but the way this ruling is written in the draft form, anyway, it certainly opens the door for that.

• 58:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 58:38Adam Skolnick?

  And that's what's alarming, and it actually opens the door to overturn other laws. There is a story out of Texas that the governor there, Greg Abbott, the governor, now wants to sue to overturn a federal law that was settled at Supreme Court level that demands that Texas educate the children of migrants, illegal immigrants in Texas are now going to, their children may not get educated in public schools there because of it. If he goes through with this lawsuit, he talked about it at a press conference, he gave his legal opinion on how and why it could be overturned. He has not, they have not filed suit yet, the state of Texas hasn't done that yet. But when I see this, which 70% of the United States is against the overturning of Roe

• 59:20Adam Skolnick?

  v. Wade, 70%, you notice, there's no bragging going on in the Republican Party. Nobody is like bragging that we finally did it.

• 59:27Rich Roll?

  No, because it's so out of step with what polls indicate where the temperature of the American people are.

• 59:33Adam Skolnick?

  So you have that, and then you have this impulse, whether it's the lawsuit happens or not, this impulse to actually weaponize young children and the education of children. It makes me think two things. One is, who runs for office to gain power to do that? Like, what is in the head of a person who runs for office and their big goal is to not educate kids? That's crazy. And the second is, to me, whether it happens now, 10 years, 15 years, this is the beginning of the end of the Republican Party. That's what I think. I think everything's gonna be okay. I'm not an alarmist. I think it's all gonna be okay. And I think this is gonna be the beginning of the end of the Republican Party.

• 1:00:09Rich Roll?

  Well, it's certainly going to activate the Democrats and it's gonna marshal the interest of the independents. There's a lot of people in the middle who are undecided or waffle between parties, depending upon the election cycle and who's running. But this is such an emotional issue. And I think it's really gonna enervate certain aspects of the population who have been traditionally apathetic about their citizenship, right? And their enthusiasm around voting.

• 1:00:36Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 1:00:38Rich Roll?

  The Democrats generally bungle these types of opportunities to marshal support. So we'll see what happens, but it's certainly an opportunity going into the midterms. And I think the kind of domino effect or downstream implications of this decision, which we're expecting will come out sometime in the next seven weeks. I think every time that we're in that position where the, because the Supreme Court rules like once or twice a week, right, on something, every time they're about to make a ruling, like, is this gonna be it? Is this real? It's interesting because, at least with respect to the same-sex marriage issue, although Alito says explicitly in the draft opinion that this should not be construed beyond

• 1:01:18Rich Roll?

  the very special case of abortion because it involves the unborn life, the principles beneath their argument shouldn't be extrapolated to apply to other issues. It's not a stretch to see how those legal arguments or the kind of logical through-line that runs through this majority opinion could not then be applied to same-sex marriage and other civil rights issues.

• 1:01:44Adam Skolnick?

  It could.

• 1:01:45Rich Roll?

  That we could see becoming unraveled as a result of this. So it's interesting. I think it's also interesting that, I'm not sure that the Republican Party is actually prepared for what will actually happen if this becomes law. Because with the increase in the childbirth rate and the other things that you were just mentioning, we're gonna need Federal and state programs to help manage all of this, right? And the right is less enthusiastic about funneling money into government programs to support these young mothers and the children, particularly, you know, if they want to put them up for adoption and the like, like, we're going to need social service support in order to manage this.

• 1:02:27Adam Skolnick?

  The right doesn't like to give social service support. Yeah, I mean, support.

• 1:02:30Rich Roll?

  So what? So all these people fall through the cracks?

• 1:02:32Adam Skolnick?

  That's right. So you create, I mean, it's the same thing with schoolchildren, like, actually, their presence in schools gives public school money. Like, you take people out, you actually hurt your own schools. It's a folding in of the fabric of the country. And it's because of me, mine, and this is what I believe, so there. You know, that kind of attitude has been kind of on the conservative side for a long time. Now, on the other side of it, it's like, we don't want to overstate a winning argument. We don't want to say, this means, you know, these other rights are going to be taken away, because it's not necessarily true. So, like, I would just urge people who are having these discussions, or posting about

• 1:03:13Adam Skolnick?

  it, or whatever, let's stick to the facts, and the facts of the case look like Roe is going to be overturned. Let's just talk about that, because, you know, until the other things are actually under threat, the only reason I brought up the Texas situation is because it's under threat, because Greg Abbott spoke about it. And so that's why I bring it up. But the other ones, we'll see. I mean, certainly, the ruling leaves it open to possibility, but if it's just Roe alone, that's already, you know, a lot of people are extremely troubled by it, and 70% of the population disagrees with it. So, you know, it's a very bizarre thing to be kind of living through.

• 1:03:47Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:03:47Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:49Rich Roll?

  More will be revealed.

• 1:03:50Adam Skolnick?

  More will be revealed.

• 1:03:51Rich Roll?

  And just so you're not under the impression that I'm some kind of left-wing progressive shill, I think it's important to point out that although I'm pro-choice, I'm not so crazy about this new Biden administration, Ministry of Truth, the Disinformation Governance Board. This is news to you, right? Like, you weren't aware that this was going on?

• 1:04:10Adam Skolnick?

  I wasn't aware, and it's a very bad title.

• 1:04:12Rich Roll?

  It really is.

• 1:04:13Adam Skolnick?

  It's a very bad title.

• 1:04:16Rich Roll?

  I mean, there's literally like the name of an Orwell biography is Ministry of Truth.

• 1:04:20Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 1:04:20Rich Roll?

  Like, it could not be more Orwellian in that regard.

• 1:04:23Adam Skolnick?

  Worse title. Who writes their titles?

• 1:04:24Rich Roll?

  The Disinformation Governance Board. It's interesting because this came out right in the wake, if I have my timeline right, of this speech that Obama recently gave at Stanford on misinformation and disinformation. Did you see that?

• 1:04:38Adam Skolnick?

  I know. I saw snippets of it. I did not watch the whole speech.

• 1:04:43Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's obviously, it is a problematic issue. We do need people, smart people, thinking about how to solve this problem. I'm not saying it's not a problem. I'm just not crazy about this being part of the solution. Interesting side note, I was up in the Bay Area when I went to go to that doctor for my back appointment.

• 1:05:01Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:01Rich Roll?

  And I took Jaya with me and we were, I was giving a tour of like the, I was like, here's where I went to college. And we were driving around Stanford. And then as we're exiting, like behind Stanford, there was two cop cars and then four black SUVs and then another two cop cars. And I was like, who, somebody's in those, you know, I was like, who is that? Like, it turned out it was Obama because he had just spoken at Stanford.

• 1:05:24Adam Skolnick?

  Barack Obama.

• 1:05:25Rich Roll?

  So that was my somewhat fleeting experience being close to Barack Obama. Anyway.

• 1:05:31Adam Skolnick?

  Not as close as to Larry Ellison buying cough drops.

• 1:05:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So this Disinformation Governance Board is within the Department of Homeland Security. And the problem is that it's run by people, right? And people, obviously, are prone to being emotional and partisan and susceptible to incentives. And the person who's been appointed to run this, Nina Jankowicz, is a very inherently partisan person. I mean, she's an advocate for online regulation and stiffer action against online abuse, fine. But it's tricky, man. You know, when you get the government involved in saying what's disinformation and what's misinformation, alarm bells go off appropriately. Now, in fairness, the intention behind all of this is to identify and combat international threats,

• 1:06:19Rich Roll?

  like coming from Russia and China.

• 1:06:21Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 1:06:21Rich Roll?

  This is something that Jankowicz has experience with, like this is her level of expertise. But anytime you vest a government department or organization with the power to make conclusions about what's true and what isn't, we should all be concerned about that.

• 1:06:37Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, no doubt. And it seems like it actually opens you up to vulnerabilities politically by even getting involved in that. You know, like, so, yeah, it doesn't sound good. I wouldn't want a ministry judging. Like, first of all, there's so much content. There's no way they could even, who's gonna judge it all? It's gonna be AI. Who's controlling the AI? I mean, it's so inherently problematic. It's like, it seems like the issue is an upstream issue. Let's fight misinformation before it happens. Let's fight, you know, like, where does this lead? I mean, you have misinformation every day because we have a completely open media landscape now. You know, is it?

• 1:07:15Rich Roll?

  It's hard. It's a really hard problem. On the one hand, it's incumbent upon all of us to be better filters of information and to develop and hone our critical thinking skills. That should be taught in schools now, given the fact that every kid is exposed to so much stuff. They need to understand how to distinguish between reality and fantasy, disinformation, et cetera. But we're also, you know, walking forward into this dystopian technological era of deep fakes and, you know, what happens when technology advances to the point where you could put a video out of some head of state who looks and sounds exactly like the head of state who's sitting atop a nuclear arsenal and he says,

• 1:07:59Rich Roll?

  "I'm gonna launch a first strike." Like, there are real world implications to this that kind of make it feel like, well, probably there should be some government organization that's paying attention to this. So I understand that, but at the same time, like, it's pretty difficult to figure out how you solve this problem.

• 1:08:15Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I mean, it depends on what the structure is. Like, what are they actually looking at? What's the purview? And then I think your criticism of who's in charge of it, it should look pretty impartial. It should look more impartial than that, you know, like-

• 1:08:27Rich Roll?

  Or at least it shouldn't be one person.

• 1:08:29Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, and maybe it's not, you know, like, maybe it's not. I haven't really looked at it, but it sounds like it could be used to accuse the government of censorship. And you don't want to be censoring right now. It's just like, I'm against censorship. You are too. We're free speech people. So I wish there was a way to solve this problem without structure on speech, and hopefully there is.

• 1:08:52Rich Roll?

  We'll see, when Elon takes over Twitter.

• 1:08:56Adam Skolnick?

  Maybe Elon can solve all these problems.

• 1:08:57Rich Roll?

  Well, I think he thinks he can.

• 1:09:00Adam Skolnick?

  Let's get Elon over there. You know, now that Elon's a Texan, he can have a sit down with Greg Abbott and

• 1:09:06Rich Roll?

  I'm sure he's had one, at least one.

• 1:09:08Adam Skolnick?

  At least one already?

• 1:09:09Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 1:09:10Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, well, he shouldn't be.

• 1:09:11Rich Roll?

  I mean, his giga factory out there is like the largest building in the world. A crazy gigantic building that goes on forever and ever.

• 1:09:19Adam Skolnick?

  How come you don't have a giga factory?

• 1:09:21Rich Roll?

  I have a giga factory in my mind.

• 1:09:24Rich Roll?

  All right, let's go to listener questions. We're gonna do one question and then we're gonna pivot to our second Zoom call with Chris South.

• 1:09:31Adam Skolnick?

  All right.

• 1:09:38Speaker 04

  Hey, Adam. Hey, Rich. My name is Tristan Duke. I'm calling from Orem, Utah. And my question is, so we're in a world of a lot of information. There's a lot of podcasts and, you know, a lot of things that I'm constantly learning. I would, you know, argue a lot of healthy things that I'm learning from your podcast. There's so many things that I want to implement in my life. Like, I'd like to be more plant-based. I'd like to stay consistent with intermittent fasting and those health benefits. And the list goes on of like, things that I'd like to do, or, oh, I should sleep between this time and get this, you know?

• 1:10:16Speaker 04

  But I can't help but feel overwhelmed at times with how much information or how many things that I should be doing. Or, you know, well, I shouldn't be eating fish because it's not sustainable. And I feel like it's to my detriment. And I try and focus on that 1% better every day, but ultimately I do feel overwhelmed with all the different things out in the world and the ways that I can better myself. And I guess I'm just wondering if you have any tips or tricks to bettering yourself in a way that is sustainable? That I can grow in ways that I can measure. Yeah. Thank you, guys.

• 1:10:55Rich Roll?

  Thank you, Tristan. Orem is where the Iron Cowboy lives.

• 1:10:58Adam Skolnick?

  That's right. Iron Cowboy, who's going to Littila.

• 1:11:02Rich Roll?

  Oh, he is?

• 1:11:02Adam Skolnick?

  He's gonna race the world championship.

• 1:11:04Rich Roll?

  Oh, good for him. Oh, that's fantastic. That'll be fun to see him do that. That's great.

• 1:11:08Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:08Rich Roll?

  He'll love it. Yeah, spent a lot of time in Orem. It's a beautiful place in the world. So, thank you for your question, Tristan. I relate to this a lot. It's like a classic case of whataboutism. Like, every time you're doing a good thing, then you can think of the 10 things that you're not doing. Well, I should be doing this, and I should be doing that. And you can easily turn that into, you know, kind of a self-flagellation parade, which I've been known to do to myself. Because it is so all-consuming and overwhelming when you hear all this high-vibration content, and people are saying, "Do this, do that, do that."

• 1:11:44Rich Roll?

  I mean, every week, hosting this podcast, I learn new things from my guests. And the other content that I consume, and it's impossible to incorporate all of it or synthesize it into my life, or for anybody to do that. So, you gotta be a little bit more sort of gracious with yourself, I think. Because if you did set yourself up to try to follow everything, for example, just take morning routines. Like, everybody likes to talk about morning routines. Like, well, if you did everything everybody told you to do for your morning routine, it would take you like three hours to do it every day. Like, it's not sustainable.

• 1:12:20Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, Huberman, I don't have time.

• 1:12:23Rich Roll?

  To stare into the sun when you wake up in the morning?

• 1:12:25Adam Skolnick?

  I can't stare into the sun that long.

• 1:12:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's like, all of them are also like, it'll only take you a few minutes. But if you, like, made a list of, okay, I gotta stare in the sun, I gotta drink water with apple cider vinegar, then I gotta do my meditation, and then I gotta do my journaling, and then I gotta do my visualization, and then I do my gratitude list, and then I gotta do my stretches, or my, you know.

• 1:12:45Adam Skolnick?

  You have time to work.

• 1:12:45Rich Roll?

  Like, right.

• 1:12:48Rich Roll?

  Exactly. And I think, you know, I love, I wanted to say that like, I love that, you know, try to be 1% better every day mantra. I think that's cool and it's very like simplistic, so you can wrap your head around it, but it actually isn't true. Like, I don't think anybody gets 1% better every day. Because improvement is not linear, let alone exponential. Life is messy and we make mistakes and most days it's, you know, two steps backwards.

• 1:13:19Adam Skolnick?

  I got 4% worse yesterday.

• 1:13:21Rich Roll?

  Did you?

• 1:13:22Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 1:13:22Rich Roll?

  All the making up. It'd be great, like, if there was an app and all it said, it just gave you a percent every day of how much better or worse you were than the day before.

• 1:13:30Adam Skolnick?

  Olaf can figure that out. He can tell us.

• 1:13:33Rich Roll?

  You're 4% worse today. Like, I don't even need specifics. Just, yeah, you're bad. It's not good.

• 1:13:39Adam Skolnick?

  Yesterday was bad. You're 15% the man you used to be.

• 1:13:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the pressure of that, right?

• 1:13:46Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:47Rich Roll?

  I gotta be 1% better every day. It's the pressure of unrealistic proportions. And so, I think a better way to think about this, that hopefully might be helpful to you Tristan, and put your mind at ease a little bit, is to just, first of all, create a hierarchy of needs. Like, do a self-inventory and try to identify what is most dire, or in terms of your need to redress in your life. Like, what is most urgent? Like, where is that limited bandwidth, time and focus best invested that will kind of be this fulcrum to leverage the most change? Because you can't do everything, and if you set yourself up to do too many things, you're going to fail for the reasons that you're already aware. So, you know, do that inventory

• 1:14:30Rich Roll?

  and inventory your nutrition, your fitness, your mental health, your career, your relationships, how involved you are in your community, what does your spiritual life look like? And really be honest with yourself and try to figure out like, okay, where am I the most off the mark? Or where is the area that I really haven't been giving the care and attention that it deserves? And I think, once you focus on that one thing and start to channel that focus in that direction, the cool thing is that...

• 1:15:02Rich Roll?

  It then opens up all kinds of other stuff because you're performing an esteemable act for yourself, which breeds self-esteem and gets you more emotionally connected and enthusiastic about improving other areas of your life. For example, if you pick diet, you start improving your diet, you start feeling better, maybe you lose a little bit of weight, you're gonna feel better and then you're gonna be like, I deserve good things in my life. Where else can I improve? Because improvement feels good. But I think the important thing is to do something. It's not about necessarily what that thing is as much as it is about the fact that you are in action and not falling prey to analysis paralysis because you have this avalanche of inputs that are pulling you in a million different

• 1:15:47Rich Roll?

  directions.

• 1:15:48Adam Skolnick?

  Like the perfection is the enemy of the good type?

• 1:15:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly. But that's something should be specific. It should be measurable. It should be quantifiable. It should be time oriented. And it could be a small thing like 10 minutes of meditation a day. But as long as you're specific and you hold yourself to it, you're accountable to it. I think that is the key thing. And let go of this, whatever compulsion or need you have to like, make sure that you're doing all of the things. So, an example that I often give is when I got sober, like I was like, I have to change my whole life. Like, my life is a train wreck. It's a disaster. I need to, you know, change my diet and my career and like, I need new friends. And in truth, all I needed to do

• 1:16:29Rich Roll?

  then was to just stop drinking or not drink. And so I focused on that because I was told, I was like, I need to do all that. No, forget about all that. That will come in time. Right now, what you need to do is take care of the biggest crisis in your life, which is the fact that you can't stop drinking. Address that and in time, you will get healthier and more, you'll be more capable of addressing those other areas in your life. But I wouldn't have been successful or been able to achieve the things that I have been able to achieve if I'd tried to do all of it at one time.

• 1:17:02Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:03Rich Roll?

  So, those are my thoughts.

• 1:17:06Adam Skolnick?

  You're so good at these. You really are. You're good at these. They're thorny questions. This is a great question, by the way, because it's something, it's close to like, we've had overwhelmed questions before, but they're usually about how the world seems to be in been a shitstorm. This one's more internal, like, and, you know, content that's coming at you. What do you do with it all? How do you catch it all? I really like this question, Tristan, and I think-

• 1:17:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think anybody who listens to a lot of like, sort of self-help, self-improvement content, or reads a lot of those books, you can get really disoriented, because there's a lot of things to do and a lot of things to think about.

• 1:17:41Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:42Rich Roll?

  So.

• 1:17:43Adam Skolnick?

  Great, great answers.

• 1:17:44Rich Roll?

  So, yeah, thanks for the question. And that's it. I think we did it.

• 1:17:49Adam Skolnick?

  Call us, guys. Send in some more questions.

• 1:17:51Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's right.

• 1:17:52Adam Skolnick?

  The voicemail.

• 1:17:53Rich Roll?

  424, do you know the, you don't know it offhand?

• 1:17:56Adam Skolnick?

  Do I know it by heart?

• 1:17:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:58Adam Skolnick?

  I have it right here. 424-235-4626. That's right.

• 1:18:02Rich Roll?

  Operators are standing by.

• 1:18:03Adam Skolnick?

  424-235-4626. AI is standing by.

• 1:18:07Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, we love the questions. So, keep them coming. Appreciate it. Adam and I'll be back here in two weeks. We're going to celebrate the 10th anniversary of Finding Ultra. So, I have some fun stuff to share about that. It's been 10 years since that book came out.

• 1:18:21Adam Skolnick?

  That's awesome.

• 1:18:21Rich Roll?

  So, we're going to do a little giveaway kind of thing. We'll talk about that-

• 1:18:24Adam Skolnick?

  When's the last time you read it?

• 1:18:27Rich Roll?

  A long time ago. When I rewrote it a couple of years ago.

• 1:18:29Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, you had to do, you did a revise, right?

• 1:18:31Rich Roll?

  I did a revise, yeah.

• 1:18:32Adam Skolnick?

  You did a reissue.

• 1:18:33Rich Roll?

  But it's been 10 years, and it's been cool, because it still sells, and it still tracks on Amazon, and that's the most gratifying thing, because it wasn't a New York Times bestseller. It wasn't like a huge deal when it came out, but it's still, you know, getting into the hands of people. And it's also interesting that despite its success, the number of people that have read that book is still a tiny segment of the podcast population, which shows you like, how many people aren't reading books.

• 1:19:02Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, read more podcast population.

• 1:19:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:04Adam Skolnick?

  Some of us rely on-

• 1:19:06Rich Roll?

  Need you to.

• 1:19:08Adam Skolnick?

  Some of us.

• 1:19:09Rich Roll?

  I need you to read more. I have bills, right? Cool. So we'll see you in two weeks and now we're going to go to my conversation with Chris. I'm going to share about my back situation with him. Hopefully he has some words of wisdom for me as I try to wrap my head around whether I'm going to do this 20 kilometer race coming up in a month. Which is frightening me.

• 1:19:31Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, well, I'm eager to hear what he says and I'm sorry you're having some pain.

• 1:19:35Rich Roll?

  It's okay, man.

• 1:19:36Adam Skolnick?

  I have some Icy Hot in my car.

• 1:19:38Rich Roll?

  Do you? I could use that.

• 1:19:39Adam Skolnick?

  And one of those old school like electric cord pad, heating pads?

• 1:19:44Rich Roll?

  Oh, you do?

• 1:19:46Adam Skolnick?

  I've got three in my car. Do you want one?

• 1:19:48Rich Roll?

  No, I'm okay. Okay. All right. Thanks, man. See you in two weeks.

• 1:19:51Adam Skolnick?

  All right. See you then.

• 1:19:52Rich Roll?

  Peace. Plant, heating pad.

• 1:19:57Rich Roll?

  There he is.

• 1:19:58Adam Skolnick?

  How are you feeling?

• 1:20:00Rich Roll?

  I've been better. Such is life. Life is not, life is not linear.

• 1:20:06Chris Hauth?

  It is not linear and the thing is, I believe, as I wrote you, I think you, I think muscle memory and how this all works and your ability in open water and you're just, your calmness in that and not overthinking it, you can do it.

• 1:20:25Rich Roll?

  I hear you and I'm not averse to the Jesse Itzler school of approaching, you know, crazy endurance events and I know that I do have, you know, a background and a muscle memory and even as the volume was starting to increase, like in the pool, the volume's never a problem with me. Like I can increase the volume, no problem. It's the intensity of the workouts that drain me. And I'm totally fine for showing up and just spinning the wheel, but I need to calibrate that against whether I'm actually doing damage because my back was so bad. Like today's a little bit better, but the last four days, like I literally can't stand up straight and I, the amount of pain shooting through my back is unbelievable.

• 1:21:08Rich Roll?

  And there's no way that it's not tied to the swimming and it's probably mostly due to the turns. But I think as the workouts started to get progressively harder, it just, I couldn't get around it anymore. And it was like, it's been excruciating. And so I haven't swum in like four days at this point.

• 1:21:27Chris Hauth?

  That's a bummer. That's a bummer.

• 1:21:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:29Chris Hauth?

  But the fact that this comes up from swimming is such a new. Aspect of it, right? Like I've I've had back issues before and like I'm sitting in the chair here and I'll get up and I'll like fall to my knees because I'm like this shooting like pain just grips me and then I'm walking over around real hunched for a few minutes and have to stand somewhere. So it's not unfamiliar. But to me, it's never been a swimming question. Don't get me wrong. I jump in the pool and I'm very timid. And by the time I get going, I'm probably doing some open turns or just not a lot of extraneous movements. But it usually always settles in on the swimming. Now, running,

• 1:22:11Chris Hauth?

  forget it. Done. Right. I can't get on a bike. Eventually, I can get on a bike, but then I can't get off the bike.

• 1:22:20Rich Roll?

  Right. This is aging.

• 1:22:22Chris Hauth?

  Yes.

• 1:22:23Rich Roll?

  Everybody watching and listening.

• 1:22:25Chris Hauth?

  I know.

• 1:22:25Rich Roll?

  Beware.

• 1:22:26Chris Hauth?

  Yeah. So and the only other question for you is also, do you go all that way to do something where we inherently know you can do it? But I think the value of an adventure and an experience and something like this is it creates some momentum and it creates some powerful lasting energy within you.

• 1:22:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think I just I hear all that and I appreciate it. I think I just need to see over the next week or so, whether that's realistic. Like, again, I just don't want to do increased damage to my back. And I am like in the midst of this protocol where I have an opportunity to heal it with these doctors up your way. And I want to make sure that I'm following their advice, because short of this working, like I'm looking at fusion surgery, which obviously I want to avoid at all costs. So I don't want to do anything that's going to slow down this recovery process or impede it in any material way. All things being neutral. Yeah, I'll go do some crazy thing and see if I can finish

• 1:23:30Rich Roll?

  it. I just don't want to have any kind of permanent or semi permanent damage as a result of being an idiot about like, you know, how I'm healing my back.

• 1:23:39Chris Hauth?

  Yeah. Are they saying this is all expected? Like what you're struggling with is part of the protocol slash what could be part of it?

• 1:23:48Rich Roll?

  Well, what they said was that it's a slow process. It's not going to happen overnight. It's probably going to take about six months and, you know, two to three appointments where I go through this procedure and to temper my expectations of feeling any different in the short term. But they have seen good results as long as, you know, I'm doing what I'm being told to do and then I'm patient with the whole thing. But they didn't make any guarantees either. They're like, you know, this is all kind of new stuff also. All I can tell you is that we've seen people who are in a similar situation that you're in and they've seen tremendous progress. And in terms of training, they're like, don't run. If you can ride your bike without significant pain, that's probably okay. Swimming's fine.

• 1:24:33Rich Roll?

  Don't do flip turns. And I've sort of partially taken that advice. Like I have tried to do some tender flip turns and I think it is the arching of the back and the flipping over and the, you know, the pushing off the wall. That's probably the primary culprit in what I'm experiencing now. But I've been dealing with back pain for like 10 years and it, you know, it flares up and it's moderate lagging, you know, kind of all the time. But this was something totally different. Like it just hit a whole new level of excruciating to where it's like, it's not even like, oh, I shouldn't go to the pool. It's like, no, there's no way that I could do anything physical today.

• 1:25:08Chris Hauth?

  That's a bummer. That's, and I can't even blame it on your inability to do proper flip turns or something.

• 1:25:16Rich Roll?

  I know. But this was meant to be like a coaching call where we're going to track the progress and like, here's what you need to be doing and all of that. But like, I think what's instructive for anybody who's listening or watching this is like, how do you roll with something like this? How do you keep your head, you know, screwed on straight? How do you stay positive? And it just sucks when you've invested a bunch of time and energy and you have a goal and then you have a setback like this and it's unclear what the next right step is and how do you remain enthusiastic about your fitness when you're being told like you need to not do anything right now? It's very dispiriting and as somebody like yourself who only feels good when they're in some kind of daily movement practice,

• 1:26:00Rich Roll?

  to not do that feels, you know, feels like you're living somebody else's life.

• 1:26:05Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, I mean, for me, what I usually tell the athletes is this is a short window in time and these events aren't going anywhere and we can find adventures, but let's get you healthy first and let's, you know, work on those first steps in order to kick out the other side to make the decisions we would want to make in order to, for you to still have the experience, the adventure, that growth that you're looking for. So that's the first part of it. The second part of it is also understanding that, you know, we can't force these things. And sometimes the universe, for lack of a better description, conspires against our best intentions and our willingness to take action. Because here's the thing, right? We're taking action on the things that we said we would do and you

• 1:26:50Chris Hauth?

  feel knocked down when, when the action you're taking is detrimental to your, what you envisioned would be your progress and who you want to be, right? But knowing that there's another side to it, that on the other side of this adventures will present themselves. I will say this, my greatest disappointments in athletics have always presented opportunities on the other side that allowed me to look back at the disappointments and say, wow, had I not had that disappointment, I would have not been able to experience this. And that has sustained me and many athletes over time because the path, how we just sort

• 1:27:32Chris Hauth?

  of navigate that path, presents an opportunity at some point where we all, if we are in the right place mentally too, can say, you know what? It actually worked out for the best.

• 1:27:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's good to hear that. That's very reassuring. I appreciate that. I think it's, you know, for me, it's disappointing, but I'm in a very different place than I was in like 2009 or 2010. Like, had we been in our like prep for Ultraman and something like this happened, I would have been devastated because I had such high expectations and so much of my life was invested in that at that time. But now it's like, I'm doing this for the joy and the fun and the challenge. And to stay connected to my fitness and you know, if it's not going to work out now like that sucks, but I can live with it because I'm being nourished in my life and in other

• 1:28:24Rich Roll?

  ways. It's just disappointing. And also I have to check myself from self judgment like I'm somebody who, who if I say I'm going to do this thing, like I want to be the guy who does it. And then if you're like, well, I'm going to do this thing. And then you're like, well, now I'm not going to do this thing. Like that doesn't feel in alignment with like the kind of person that I want to be, or how I want to perceive myself, or how I want others to perceive me.

• 1:28:48Chris Hauth?

  That was me last summer, Tahoe, right? I had trained, I'd done it. And circumstances of being sick on in that window had me getting out after, you know, 45 minutes or an hour, like, come on.

• 1:29:04Rich Roll?

  And is that like a first? That's kind of like a first for you.

• 1:29:08Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, and it's brutal. But I know that lake is still there. And I know deep down inside, I will still do that. I will follow through on my word. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when. And so that is my anchor. That's what I hold on to. I will eventually follow through on the things that I said I would to myself, right? And to our own personal accountability, our word, and you know what I mean by that. Like, we just say something to ourselves, and we put our vested interest in our mind and our thoughts and our soul behind it. We are very connected to following through on that. But again, it's not a question of if,

• 1:29:49Chris Hauth?

  that's the part we know. We know we will. It's a question of when. And you know, with the expectations around it of how, of, okay, you know, I'm not expecting to win this, or I'm not expecting to set the record of, let's say, crossing Tahoe. It's a question of doing it. And I will follow through on my word on that. And similar to you, just think 10 years ago, or 12 years ago, had something gone wrong prior to your Ultraman build up. You know, we would have applied that fitness in some other realm. And you would have had a very, who you were meant to be and where you are today. I think that path would have converged either way. We're just caught up in the event itself because that's what we're so laser focused on.

• 1:30:34Chris Hauth?

  But I think over time, you would have ended up with the same accomplishment and the same insights and the same growth and expressing who, the truth of who you are anyways.

• 1:30:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I believe, I believe that, I believe that. I guess the question on when becomes for me in a specific way, like, what does that mean? Like, let's assume my back starts to loosen up and it still hurts, but it's not as bad as it was a couple of days ago. When is it appropriate to try to push it and see what's going on there? Like, I'm pretty good about knowing the difference between just something you can ignore versus something that is truly problematic, that, that is going to be made worse by training. And that's a very kind of, you know, personal connection that you have. But assuming I can get back in the water in the next couple of days, like, what does that mean and what does that look like? I guess I just have to play it day by day right now.

• 1:31:33Chris Hauth?

  You do, but you can also start wrapping your mind around, I need to only build once. In our background, for you and I as swimmers and just the experience of life, how many times we've trained for something, whether that's for Ultraman, whether that's for swimming, whether that's for any endurance event. So many of us are familiar with the old school way of you build, then you come down, you build even further and you just build up your confidence and your ability closer and closer to set distance or event. And then you come down taper one last time and you do it. And you have this confidence that like, I did, you know, 16,000 yards, I'll be fine doing 20, right?

• 1:32:15Chris Hauth?

  Or people getting ready for a marathon, well, I need to run 22 to 23 miles just, and then, you know, come down from that and that way have that confidence in it. But there's also the other way, that you build completely to that day. And that is the day that you do your biggest swim. Right?

• 1:32:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:34Chris Hauth?

  And so we use the time we have available, once you're able to swim again and feel connected to your stroke and your movements and so forth, to sort of mathematically almost build back like, okay, how are we going to fit in some confidence building, longer swims, get you to a point where you're like, all right, I can see how I can navigate a path and with my muscle memory and my experience to do this just once, and that's on event day.

• 1:33:02Rich Roll?

  Right. And what are the mental coping strategies that you tell your athletes when they suddenly get injured and are spiraling out of control?

• 1:33:13Chris Hauth?

  Well, I use that time for them to work on the infrastructure around their training. Could they be eating better? Can they get more sleep? Can they do things at work so that they lighten up their load for when we do have the ability to train again? Can we take this time with kids and families so that we're sort of banking on time, knowing that those days are coming? Well, we're going to have some longer days. And everybody is on board, sort of understanding like, all right, you know, this is his window or this is her window. We need to get the work done. But we had some amazing advancements in the infrastructure and our time together or weekends away until then, right?

• 1:33:56Chris Hauth?

  Investing in everything else besides your training and building up either goodwill or the infrastructure. The infrastructure to me is sleep and nutrition and hydration and mindset so that you say, all right, everything that I'll need then, I am banking on now. The difficult hours or the boring hours or for many people like on a trainer in a garage, when after three hours their brain's going a little cuckoo, that they're like, well, you know what? Two weeks ago, I was dying to be able to do three hours in the garage. Now I gotta flip that switch and really sort of take that into a deeper level so that I have that available when the difficult moments come up again.

• 1:34:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:40Rich Roll?

  Solid advice as always. Before I let you go, you guys just did a big training camp up in Sonoma, right? How did that go?

• 1:34:48Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:48Rich Roll?

  It looked beautiful.

• 1:34:49Chris Hauth?

  It was amazing and we had a lot of fun. It was a really good infrastructure of a camp and there's a lot of ideas and things you can do up in Sonoma because there's a 50-mile race literally on the shores of Lake Sonoma.

• 1:35:00Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:35:01Chris Hauth?

  There's tons of great bike rides and of course, there's tons of great open water swimming and paddling and so forth. The challenge, as I would say, was more around what different athletes, when you put 12 athletes together, what they perceive as ultra endurance is not quite what I perceive as ultra endurance. So convincing them and having them stick with it for three big full days is the challenge, right? That's where they're expanding on what they thought they were, on who they knew themselves to be, and discovering this version of themselves where it's like, I can't believe I'm still capable of doing 100-mile bike ride after two huge days.

• 1:35:43Chris Hauth?

  I felt awful, I couldn't sleep, and look, I was still able to get on my bike. And so that's the hardest work, I would say. It's not about the training, it's about shifting people's attitudes and mindset towards more.

• 1:35:55Rich Roll?

  Right. But how empowering, you get through that and you're like, I mean, I've had those breakthroughs and you're like, wow, that's something I never thought I would be able to do. And it just raises the ceiling on your own sense of personal capability.

• 1:36:09Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, and it's an experience that I want everybody to have, not even my athletes. When they just can see this version of themselves, this potential being unleashed, and then it expands in the other realms of their life, work and family and personal life and community, that they're capable of so much more than they thought, it's beautiful to see. And so this is just a small little window of to show them what they can do, what potential truly is, and unlocking that is awesome. It just makes my, I come home from these weekends completely invigorated.

• 1:36:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah. That's cool, man. When's the next one?

• 1:36:48Chris Hauth?

  It's gonna be a while. I'm too busy.

• 1:36:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:51Chris Hauth?

  I'm off to Jesse's driveway to hell this week, so.

• 1:36:55Rich Roll?

  Oh, you're doing the thing in Connecticut with the hill, you mean?

• 1:36:59Chris Hauth?

  He has a new one. It's in his driveway at his Rome, Georgia place. And so he's got a new one.

• 1:37:07Rich Roll?

  He just did a weekend there. I was seeing on Instagram like he got a bunch of guys out in the middle of nowhere with Chad Wright.

• 1:37:13Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, and testing. He was also there testing the driveway. And so it's a half marathon on the driveway, straight up a hill. Like, I'm not doing it.

• 1:37:24Rich Roll?

  Excellent, man.

• 1:37:25Chris Hauth?

  I will be there to support.

• 1:37:27Rich Roll?

  Gotcha. Well, say hi to Jesse and it's always good to talk to you. I appreciate the check in.

• 1:37:32Chris Hauth?

  Of course.

• 1:37:32Rich Roll?

  I'll keep you posted. Who knows what's gonna happen? And for everybody who's watching and listening, you can find Chris at at A I M P Coach on the internet or A M P Coaching dot com. And we'll talk to you again soon, my friend.

• 1:37:47Chris Hauth?

  All right. Hopefully you're in the water again next time and we're talking yardage.

• 1:37:51Rich Roll?

  Hopefully, fingers crossed. We'll see. Yeah, keep you posted. I always appreciate your counsel. Thanks so much, man.

• 1:37:57Chris Hauth?

  Of course.

• 1:37:57Rich Roll?

  All right, man.

• 1:37:58Chris Hauth?

  Bye.

• 1:37:58Rich Roll?

  Talk to you soon. Bye bye.