Ryan Holiday on How Stoic Principles Can Help You Thrive in Modern Society

"How Do You Master Stillness in a World of Chaos?" In this inspiring episode, I sit down with one of the brightest minds in modern-day philosophy, Ryan Holiday. Together, we explore the wisdom behind Stoicism and how its timeless principles can help us navigate through the chaos of today's world. Ryan unpacks the ideas behind his bestselling book "Stillness Is the Key" and shares the strategies that high performers use to cultivate peace and clarity amidst constant pressure. We get into the real stuff—like how to manage your mind, how to control your emotions, and why mastering stillness can be your ultimate advantage. Whether you're an entrepreneur, athlete, parent, teacher, or simply someone trying to find balance, Ryan’s insights will give you the tools to not just survive but THRIVE in the midst of adversity. This conversation will challenge you to rethink how you approach your life and elevate your performance, all while finding that crucial stillness in your day-to-day. Key takeaways from this episode: The power of stillness and how to cultivate it in a world full of distractions Practical Stoic practices to enhance your mental toughness and resilience How controlling your emotions can make you a better leader and performer Ryan’s personal rituals for maintaining focus and balance Why slowing down can actually speed up your success Whether you're battling constant distractions, struggling with stress, or seeking more clarity in your daily grind, this episode delivers actionable wisdom you can apply immediately. From harnessing ancient Stoic practices to controlling your inner dialogue, this is a blueprint for finding calm amidst the chaos and sharpening your mental edge. Get ready to unlock the power of stillness to transform how you perform, lead, and live! This conversation will inspire you to slow down, focus, and ultimately accelerate your success. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ed Mylett?

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• 0:45Ed Mylett?

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• 1:30Ed Mylett?

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• 2:04Speaker 01

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• 2:38Speaker 02

  This is the end mile show.

• 2:42Ed Mylett?

  So, hey, welcome back to the show today, everybody. This guest that's coming back on, I just enjoyed, I was just telling him our first conversation immensely. I just, I really think very highly of this man and his work. By the way, before we get started, let me say one thing. This is for men and women. Oftentimes when you have Ryan on, I think people think about dudes. And Ryan's work is as gender nonspecific as you could possibly imagine, yet usually the work will say man this or men that. But this is for everybody. And in fact, I know my audience really well. The ladies in this audience will get as much, if not more, out of today's program than than the men will. And and that's because of this man. He's like a modern day philosopher, I would say. And he's actually shifted culture a little bit.

• 3:27Ed Mylett?

  And the more and more he writes, he's going to shift culture even more. He's that influential, sold over 10 million books. His books are just incredible. He's obviously known for his work with Stoic type work. His new book is called Right Thing Right Now. Good values, good character, good deeds. And I'd say he embodies a whole bunch of that himself. So Ryan Holiday, welcome back, sir.

• 3:48Ryan Holiday?

  Well, thank you. That's very, very nice. And I appreciate you saying that thing at the beginning because I I do think when people hear Stoic philosophy, they they think masculine or they think men or they think the military, or they maybe even think of a bunch of negative traits, sort of emotionlessness, invulnerability, suppression. And that's that, I don't think that's healthy. And I don't think that's what Stoicism as a philosophy is supposed to be. So I appreciate you calling that out.

• 4:16Ed Mylett?

  It's true. By the way, people think of being stoic and stoicism is the same thing, and that's not the case whatsoever, correct?

• 4:23Ryan Holiday?

  That that's exactly right. There's there's lowercase stoic. That's the word in English. And then there's stoicism, this philosophy that's built around these four virtues of courage, self-discipline, but also justice and wisdom. And these four ideas balance each other out, and you can't have one without the other. Too much self-discipline becomes a vice. You know, too much courage, but in pursuit of the, you know, the wrong cause or something that is, you know, unjust is also not virtue. And so, so, yeah, it's it's um, it's not what people think necessarily.

• 4:57Ed Mylett?

  Yeah. Well, by the way, courage, temperance, justice, wisdom. I think Marcus Aurelius called them the touchstones of goodness, right?

• 5:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, they're what you want to build your life around. And and these are, these are known as the cardinal virtues. And I think because those are also the cardinal virtues of Catholicism and Christianity, sometimes people think that cardinal has a religious connotation, the word cardinal, but cardinal comes from the Latin cardo, so it just means hinge. So basically, these are like pivotal things that you're supposed to sort of hang. You could say that the the door to the good life hangs on. So, yeah, the a lot of these, a lot of these words, because of their history, can sort of connotate something to some people that that maybe you have an immediate bit of resistance to or skepticism about.

• 5:46Ryan Holiday?

  But but I promise, when you dig in, you find, oh, yeah, I totally agree with that, even though even though we're justice. I think when people hear the word justice, they think the legal system, they think judges and juries, which, of course, that that is based around the idea of justice, but justice as a virtue is really the standards that we hold ourselves to, right? So, you know. Your word in a contract is a legal matter. Your word between you and I as human beings is also a matter of justice. But, but, but, but there's no enforcement mechanism here. It's just whether we're the kind of person who can be counted on and does what they say or not.

• 6:28Ed Mylett?

  Reason I love Ryan's work is that it's kind of counterculture in this sense, and it shouldn't be. And here we go, everybody. This is why I say it's gender neutral. You ladies, ask yourself this question. Do you want friends that have courage, temperance, or just and have some wisdom to bring to the table? Of course you do, right? And it's counterculture in the sense that it's really old principles, I would call them. And yet in a culture today that everything's a hack, everything's a routine, everything's a, hey, there's the new way to hack your neurochemistry, you know? And, and it's this work that's dominated culture that's from another time that is so fitting today. And it's odd, it's the stuff my dad raised me with to some extent, or the men and women I've admired in my life, yet no one writes about this stuff anymore and talks about it.

• 7:12Ed Mylett?

  So let's start, let's pick apart the new book because it's outstanding. And it's called Right Thing Right Now, you guys. Let's start with a premise of the book because it's really, it's broken down into three sections. I loved it. But like this North Star thing to begin with. So what is having a North Star? Why does it matter? What's the concept?

• 7:31Ryan Holiday?

  I, I, I worked for this entrepreneur for a long time and I remember this very pivotal conversation where someone was trying to tell him, hey, and this is a complicated guy, so we don't need to get into him. I'll just take this, this story, this, this little part of it. He was saying, you know, someone was suggesting that, you know, if you move the factories overseas, the whole business will be more profitable, will make a bunch more money. And he sort of looked at them and he said something like, look, If all I cared about was profit, I would have just become a drug dealer. And, and, and basically what he was saying is that like, look, but by definition of what we chose, we already said raw profitability is not what we're after.

• 8:15Ryan Holiday?

  If it, if it is, we'd all be working for a hedge fund, right? We became a, a, a personal trainer, or in my case, write about ancient philosophy, or you joined the armed forces, or you became a, a, a science teacher. You chose what you chose because it was important and meaningful to you. And you understood when you were choosing it, that money wasn't the main reason that you chose this thing. Right? But what happens is then we get in that thing and then we go, well, how can I make the most money possible? We, we try to sort of have our cake and eat it too. I, I guess what I'm saying is if you don't know why you do what you do, and what's most important to you, sort of what your north star is,

• 8:57Ryan Holiday?

  you're going to come to decision points, or you're going to get offers, or you're going to have opportunities, some of which are going to pay better, but going to take you contrary to your values, some of which are going to be interesting, but not that important to you. The, the, the point is you have to know like why you're doing what you do and why it's important to you. So, so that you can navigate around that north star. Otherwise, you just end up doing what everyone else is doing, or you do what's easiest, or you do what's most profitable. And so in this case, the, the, the, the guy was basically saying, look, I got into this business because I, I like making clothes and I like working with people who make clothes.

• 9:40Ryan Holiday?

  I didn't get into this as a means to an end to squeeze every penny out of the process. And so in this case, like, there were plenty of things he, he would do to try to make the business efficient. But, but running a sweatshop in Guatemala was contrary to his values and to the whole reason that he got into the business in the first place.

• 10:02Ed Mylett?

  True. And by the way, everybody, this North Star concept, some of you that have been doing something a while, it's worth revisiting conceptually because maybe this lack of passion you're feeling or juice for what you do. Is that you haven't really revisited why you did this in the first place? Or why you would do it going forward? Maybe it's shifted slightly. But without knowing that, he's right. Cause we're going to talk about the next thing in a minute. Not only do you probably not make decisions that are, you know, best for you in the long term. And the reason I also say about Ryan's work is these aren't like hacks. These are enduring principles that long-term you'll last at something. That's how you sell 10 million books. That's why I've been an entrepreneur for 30 years and not 13 years like so many, right?

• 10:44Ed Mylett?

  Because these concepts, I'm not saying I lived by all of them. I haven't. I wish I had lived by more of them, but many of them I have, and I've paid the price in such situations. By the way, when I didn't. One of the things I feel like I've done a good job of, and you actually basically start the book with this. If you don't know your true north, your north star, it's difficult to keep your word.

• 11:06Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 11:06Ed Mylett?

  Here I am 53 years old and I gotta tell you, I can name on one, maybe one and a half hands. The people I've known in my life that long that have consistently kept their word to me. Like when it got uncomfortable, like

• 11:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 11:22Ed Mylett?

  Like when they had outs they could have taken, they had legitimate excuses not to keep their word. Nobody would have blamed them for not keeping their word. But 30 years later, the people that are close to me, and by the way, the most successful people and happiest people I know have kept their word. I'm so thrilled you started basically the book with it's a 24th page, basically.

• 11:42Ryan Holiday?

  It's, it's a, it's an interesting thing, right? I, I would say discipline is keeping our word to ourself, right? So you say, hey, I'm going to go for a run this morning. I'm going to lift this weight. I'm going to eat this diet. You know, we see discipline as keeping word, our, our word to ourself. But then we say, oh yeah, I'll be there at this time. And then, you know, that's inconvenient, so we don't want to do it. Or we agreed to attend an event and now we've got a better offer. Or, or in business, right? You agreed to a price and then information comes to light. And now you want to get out of that price because it's bad for you. Or you think you have more leverage now.

• 12:27Ryan Holiday?

  You know, the, the decision to say, hey, look, this is what I agreed to. So I'm going to stick with it. It's not just that it's the right thing to do, but it's also. Part and parcel of just being the kind of person who does what you say. So if you're a person who I think it's very hard to be a flake to other people, but be committed to yourself. You know what I mean? So, so I see it as I, I try to just be someone who does what they say. When I say I'm going to work out and when I say, yeah, I'll come to your thing. I'm not going to look for some excuse later now that I don't want to do it.

• 13:03Ed Mylett?

  So good. I, I was just thinking of something small, everybody just, you know, my show, we go back and forth a little bit. I was thinking of my son, I think he was eight and he sort of reluctantly signed up to play on this baseball team. I remember this and the coach was kind of a jerk and mean to him.

• 13:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 13:21Ed Mylett?

  And, and Max wasn't very good and there were a lot of good players. Then some of the other players were mean to him, you know, when he couldn't get a hit. And I remember it breaking my heart because he came home one day, very upset. Daddy, I don't want to do it anymore. And I said, Max, you don't have to do this forever. But you gave your word that you would play this season on this team and we keep our word and we follow up with that. Ironically, everybody, I tell you that story just to tell you this, because it was hard to watch my kid go through that. One of the things I do admire about my son at this time so far is he keeps his word when things are difficult. And I think some of those lessons as parents matter too. Hopefully he saw his old man do it. I hope he did anyway. Cause most things as kids are caught, not taught, as you and I have talked about Ryan before.

• 14:03Ed Mylett?

  So, hey guys, I want to jump in here for a second and talk about change and growth. And you know, by the way, it's no secret how people get ahead in life or how they grow. And also taking a look at the future. If you want to change your future, you got to change the things you're doing. If you continue to do the same things, you're probably going to produce the same results. But if you get into a new environment where you're learning new things and you're around other people that are growth oriented, you're much more likely to do that yourself. And that's why I love Growth Day. Write this down for a second. Growth day.com forward slash ed. My friend Brendon Burchard has created the most incredible personal development and business app that I've ever seen in my life. Everything from goal setting software to personal accountability, journaling, courses, thousands of dollars worth of courses in there as well.

• 14:43Ed Mylett?

  I create content in there on Mondays where I contribute as do a whole bunch of other influencers, like the Avengers of influencers and business minds in there. It's the Netflix for high achievers or people that want to be high achievers. So go check it out. My friend Brennan has made it very affordable, very easy to get involved. Go to growthday.com forward slash ed. That's growthday.com forward slash ed.

• 15:04Ed Mylett?

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• 15:47Ed Mylett?

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• 16:31Ed Mylett?

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• 17:04Speaker 04

  Wayfair, every style, every home.

• 17:08Ed Mylett?

  Here's a big one. Man, this is rare. Take responsibility. And, and I mean, brother, this is, you know, everybody blames everyone for everything. That's an overstatement, but it is our culture now. That was an overstatement, but not by much.

• 17:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 17:25Ed Mylett?

  And my favorite thing with a leader, and I know you mean it a little bit differently, but I'll let you talk to it. My favorite thing, and I wish this was in our politics more, where the leader got up and goes, I made a mistake.

• 17:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 17:36Ed Mylett?

  I, I didn't do it intentionally. I blew the call on that one. We messed it up. This is where my heart was, but I want to own this. This is my responsibility. The buck stops with me. I called the shot wrong. I'll get it better next time. To me, that's taking complete responsibility for something. How do you mean it in the context of the book?

• 17:53Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I, I think just the larger sense of, of, look, something needs to be done. Something needs to be taken care of. I'm going to do it, right? That's what leadership is. But I, I, I think what you're talking about is accountability and that is part and parcel of responsibility. One of my favorite examples of this, if you remember that famous Patriots Seahawks Super Bowl, Pete Carroll and, and his, uh, his, his offensive coordinator make the decision to throw it and not run it on effectively the one yard line. It gets intercepted and, and the Patriots win that Super Bowl. And I remember they cut to, to Pete Carroll right after the game. And, you know, literally the biggest game in front of the biggest audience.

• 18:38Ryan Holiday?

  And he could have thrown his offensive coordinator under the bus. Like obviously they make the calls together, but part of the reason that we have staff is to, uh, it seems like part of the reason people have staff is to push responsibility downward. So they are protected, insulated from criticism, feedback, and, and then they can survive to fight another day. And I just remember watching that Super Bowl and, and just how quickly Pete Carroll was like, I made the call. I thought it was the right call for the following reasons. Sometimes it doesn't work out. I'm gonna own it, right?

• 19:17Ed Mylett?

  Yeah.

• 19:18Ryan Holiday?

  And, and just the, the power of that and the rareness of it, as, as you said, uh, I think it was, it was Kennedy said something, you know, like success has, has many fathers, but failure is an orphan. Uh, it, it's when things go sideways, people go, oh, that wasn't me. That was so and so. I had nothing to do with it. I wasn't involved. And those are the same people that had it succeeded, you know, they'd be writing books about how, how essential their role was in the whole thing. So the, the decision to go to see, look, something is happening and I'm going to take responsibility and be involved in it. And then I think the other part of that is, hey, something went poorly and instead of running away from it, I'm going to step up. I'm going to explain.

• 20:00Ryan Holiday?

  I'm going to take ownership and then I'm going to learn from this so that the next time I can do better.

• 20:07Ed Mylett?

  I want to ask you, this is loosely connected to the book. I've been wanting to ask you this for like two months when I knew. Okay. And it's loosely connected to the book and it has to do with receiving criticism and staying calm and staying true to the principles under pressure. So I'm going to tell you a story that you know. I'm a big Burt Kreischer fan. He's been on my show. I bet you already know what I'm going to ask you.

• 20:32Ryan Holiday?

  I know.

• 20:33Ed Mylett?

  Okay, good. So, uh, this will be fun then. So I like Burt a lot and I like him a lot more even after meeting him and having him on the show. And I don't listen to a lot of podcasts ironically, even though I have one, but I listen to two bears from time to time. And there was a show one night, I'm driving back from Boston up here to Maine and they're talking about your work on the show. And Burt was pretty aggressively like, ah, it's BS, this stuff. I don't know if you know they were doing that, but they were. And then live on the show, maybe you knew and it was all canned, but all live on the show, Segura calls you and says, hey, I'm on with Burt. I'm paraphrasing, but he basically says you're full of shit, right? Like your work doesn't mean anything. He doesn't get it.

• 21:13Ed Mylett?

  And Burt kind of went at you a little bit and it, and, and you stayed super calm under that duress. You related to him, you connected and you made your points, but you stayed true, I guess, to who you were. And I know that you know Bert loves you, but it was criticism live on a really popular show with a dude that you probably wouldn't expect it from. And again, I love Bert, but talk about that for you know what I'm talking about now, right?

• 21:38Ryan Holiday?

  I do. You know what was a surprise about that? And I think there's, there's maybe some, some lesson here in, in how you respond under pressure.

• 21:45Ed Mylett?

  Right.

• 21:45Ryan Holiday?

  I, I wasn't aware until most of the way in that it was live on the air. So I thought they were, I thought like, you know, sometimes the call is garbled. You don't quite understand what's happening. I remember I was just working in my office and then Tom called me and I don't know about you, but like my phone doesn't ring that much anymore. Because everyone texts first, right? Like, like when I'm getting on the phone, I usually know why I'm getting on the phone and, and when I'm getting on the phone, it's not usually to be live to a large audience. So, so, so I didn't really know. I just thought two people were calling and talking. So I, I was much more relaxed than I think I would have been had I known what I was getting into. So if they were like, hey, we want to have you on.

• 22:30Ryan Holiday?

  There's this big disagreement and it's a debate. I probably would have been tense and maybe overprepared. So there was something about just the purity of the moment. But one of the, one of the things that I've learned, I guess you would just call this confidence. You know, when you know your, um, and, and you know that you've done the work, it'll, it allows you not to be intimidated by the fact that some people disagree and, and you just sort of go, okay. Why do they think what they think? And maybe what? Like, I think what I remember about that encounter is

• 23:09Ryan Holiday?

  the chance, I, I remember thinking the chances that he actually disagrees, that, that, that he and I actually disagree here are low. I bet what's actually happening is that he has, like we talked about earlier, a perception of what Stoicism is. And that's what he disagrees with. So if you can come, if you can come at these things with the, with more the view that, hey, if we can get on the same page, we probably have more in common than we do difference. Then the job is to just. Move both of you towards a place where you agree as opposed to I'm the master of this thing and I'm going to prove that you're an idiot, you know, and I I think that's kind of what happened.

• 23:51Ed Mylett?

  I gotta tell you, like, I'm not even being funny here. I listened to that that night. I rewinded it again, just to listen. I went back because like I wish all debate was that way. And again, Bert's a great guy, and I know you didn't feel that threatened. But having said that, I was like, man, if this was how everything happened, you didn't try to go, I'm this smarter than you guy. You're a comedian. I've been researching this for years of my life. You know, you didn't do any of that. You didn't one up them. You didn't big time them. You didn't get agitated. You tried to find some common ground. My sense is Bert probably agrees now. But I just got to tell you something. It was like, it was cool to watch someone who teaches these principles live them actually live and under pressure. It just did.

• 24:29Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, thank you.

• 24:30Ed Mylett?

  It's true. And let me say this to everybody, too. I'm a Gandhi fan. Everybody knows I'm a Christian, but I'm a huge Gandhi fan, done a lot of reading on Gandhi, and I was surprised that you are as well. And so this is something I wanted to ask you about. Why Gandhi and how's that related to Marcus Aurelius of all people?

• 24:53Ryan Holiday?

  Well, you know, Gandhi's a big fan of the Christians. I think what's so interesting about Gandhi is that he's basically this student of all the world's religions. He has obviously his faith, but he was this sort of voracious student of all the religious texts. And and what's fascinating is he, you know, he gets the idea for what becomes his campaigns of nonviolence from Tolstoy, who's a Russian, and Thoreau, who's an American. And and both of them were drawing, you know, sort of primarily on on Christian thinking as well as ancient Western philosophy. But but what I so the book is about justice and and I I wanted

• 25:34Ryan Holiday?

  to highlight Gandhi for for two reasons. One, there's I I think most people understand the sort of inherent saintliness of a man like that. Here, here's a person who, you know, starves himself, who lives essentially in in deliberate poverty, who who dedicates his life to alleviating suffering and helping other people. But So that's obviously the pursuit of justice. But what I was fascinated by with Gandhi, and I tried to highlight in the book, is what a brilliant strategist Gandhi was. So, so, so nonviolence is obviously a moral strategy, and it's a morally superior strategy, right?

• 26:20Ryan Holiday?

  And yet, the reason Gandhi chooses to be nonviolent against the British is not solely because it was the moral choice. It was also a brilliant strategic and tactical set of choices. Like, when you are fighting the largest empire in the world, the idea that you're going to go toe-to-toe with them is impossible. The idea even that you would beat them in a guerrilla-style, you know, war of many, many years is extremely unlikely. What Gandhi understood was, at the core of the sort of British psyche

• 27:01Ryan Holiday?

  was a belief in these Christian values, even though they were not acting on them. And he also understood that, in a world where people find out about what's happening through the newspaper and through the radio and through photographs, and then ultimately through, you know, newsreels, that the, that the spectacle of the world's largest empire bringing its military might down on defenseless people, a man dressed in a loincloth would, would be so visually repulsive that they would, that they, that they would have to stop. And of course, this is what Martin Luther King also figures out during the civil rights movement.

• 27:45Ryan Holiday?

  They were seeking out clashes. So that newspaper photographers and news and and news videographers would capture the horror of what was happening and show it to the North and eventually the North would solve the problem federally. And so it's not just enough to be right. There also has to be a savviness and an astuteness, a sort of a, an ability to understand how to wage and win a campaign for the hearts and minds that I think Gandhi just does not get enough credit for.

• 28:22Ed Mylett?

  I agree. And by the way, speaking of credit, I'm going to ask you about that next. But that's like such a lesson for all of you entrepreneurs that are listening. My most favorite entrepreneurs don't have the biggest companies and are going against the biggest ones and not trying to beat them at their own game. They're strategists. They're finding their advantage. They're finding their way of how to get public sentiment on their, their side, build their own types of fans. And oftentimes, it's swimming against the tide. It's, it's the, it's Coke versus Pepsi. It's becoming the alternative. It's becoming the company people root for. There's so much in that.

• 28:58Ed Mylett?

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• 29:43Ed Mylett?

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• 30:26Ed Mylett?

  I feel great and I bring energy to the entire day. Go to IM8health.com/Ed10 right now, or click the link in the description and use code ED10 for a free welcome kit, five free travel sachets plus 10% off your order. That's code ED10 at IM8health.com/Ed10. Code ED10 at IM8health.com/Ed10. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. But what you just said last about Gandhi was actually my next question. So it's perfect, which is what I admired about him was he didn't want recognition, that he sought to do good and not get recognized for it.

• 31:10Ed Mylett?

  These are my favorite people, like my mom. She just did good and never expected. Think about the people you admire most in your life, everybody. Oftentimes, one of the things you admire about them, ironically, is they actually don't seek recognition for what they do. They just do good, do good. And how does someone do that, Ryan? It's one of the things that you talk about in the book. How does, that's such a hard question. I don't even know how you're going to answer this, but how does someone do good yet maintain this, "I'm not doing it for the significance or the recognition of doing it"?

• 31:42Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I think first off, what you just pointed out there is something we need to add to our perspective. So, look, most, the people we hear about the most, we hear about in large part because they want us to hear about them, right? So, so our understanding of reality is not representative, right? Most, uh, most great artists, uh, you know, are not seeking the spotlight. Most great people are not seeking recognition. And so as a result, we don't hear about them. What we hear about are, in some ways, the worst of us, right? We hear about the hungriest, thirstiest, most attention-seeking people by definition, right? And, and most of the great people, most of the successful people, most of the fundamentally

• 32:25Ryan Holiday?

  decent people, they don't want you to know about them. And in fact, you know, They're actively seeking that you don't know about them, right? Their donations are anonymous. They are deferring the credit to other people. They are operating in the background. Um, the, the Stoics have this idea in, in Meditations, Mark Serris, he says, be careful not to ask for the third thing. He says, you have done something good and someone has benefited from that. So that's one and two. And he says, the third thing is asking to be repaid, asking to be recognized, acting, asking to be credited, you know? Uh, the third thing is, is that reciprocation for what you did. Right?

• 33:09Ryan Holiday?

  And so I think the idea of, of seeing, okay, yeah, I gave the, I did the thing and someone benefited. That's my repayment. The other stuff is extra and in some ways a distraction. And then what you often see, I, I tell the story in this book. There's this fascinating article about it that I, that I based the chapter on. But there was this woman who, she donated her kidney to a stranger. And, and just imagine what an incredible thing that is. And by the way, it happens every day. Uh, people's lives are saved by, by total strangers. And so she donates this kidney and she, she starts this Facebook group of her friends where she's just kind of talking about, um, you know, the, the journey that she's on.

• 33:52Ryan Holiday?

  And she notices that this one woman who she was kind of work acquaintances with, isn't really responding. It's almost like a Shakespearean play, how the events unfold. But she starts to notice and it starts to eat at her that this woman isn't noticing, it isn't congratulating her and isn't saying thank you and appreciating what an incredible sacrifice she went. And it, look, long story short, these two women end up clashing. They become enemies. They sue each other. They, they, they write about each other negatively. It's this almost comical series of events, but, but it's just an illustration of like, like, look, if you expect to be recognized and appreciated for doing good,

• 34:34Ryan Holiday?

  sometimes you'll get it, but a lot of times you won't. And it's going to drive you nuts because you do deserve it. This woman did deserve to be congratulated and thanks. But who knows what was going on in this other woman's life? She didn't care. She was jealous. Maybe it was triggering for her in some way. But, but the result is that both of them end up wasting incredible amounts of their time. In this argument where the facts are indisputed, you know, she did something good. Someone benefited from it. That's, that could have been the end of the story, but she, she needed more and, and we all do that to ourselves. You know, we, we, we do someone a favor or we pick up the tab or whatever.

• 35:19Ryan Holiday?

  And then we're thinking, okay, they, they, they understand this. Next time it's going to come back my way and then it doesn't. And then we start to hate that person and we resent that person and it frays our relationship. And it, it gets to a point where we might as well have just not done the good thing in, in the first place, because it ends up making us worse as human beings.

• 35:41Ed Mylett?

  It's so true. By the way, as someone who has sought recognition for a good part of their lives, it does get you pretty high when you first start getting it. And here's what's terrible about this drug. What's terrible about this drug, by the way, of always wanting, by the way, relate to the picking up the tab, everything you just said. But it stops getting you high after a while. And what's worse is the lack of it. Does get you down. When you seek it for a while, it will get you high and then it doesn't. And then when it's not there, I've watched this with so many of my friends. It's a massive withdrawal and very painful for people. It is a drug I recommend you never get addicted to. Yesterday, just about how many good people in the world, very small microcosm, I donated blood yesterday.

• 36:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 36:24Ed Mylett?

  I was in there, you know? They figured out that I'm, you know, whatever, that I, a, a public person. And so there's about 17 people in there donating blood and everyone's sort of making a bigger deal about me. And she goes, it's just amazing that somebody like you would be in here and just trying to help other people. And I finally told her at the end, I said, I have to be honest with you. It's actually not why I was donating blood today. I'm doing it because my doctor recommends it and it's therapeutic. And that's actually why I'm here. These 16 other people in here, these beautiful souls, these are the good people in here. And I thought about them all day, actually. These people got in their car, drove down to this place, let someone stick a needle in their arm just to give blood so somebody else could live. Those are good people. No one will ever know that about them.

• 37:10Ed Mylett?

  Yet they exist in the world every single day. And so there is more good in the world, as you say in the book, if we focus on it than there is bad. If we see the good in people. It's one of the things Ryan recommends in the book is see good in people.

• 37:22Ryan Holiday?

  You know, it's, it's, it's funny that you mentioned the giving blood thing because when I was reading this, this story about this woman who donated a kidney, I was like, that's incredible. I want to do that. Like, what, you know, and my wife goes, don't donate. She's like, you're not going to donate your kidney. What are you talking about? Uh, you know, what if our kids needed, you know, can you really afford to be out for, you know, months recovering from some surgery? She, and she just goes, have you ever even donated blood before? And I was like, I, I don't know that I have. And, and she was like, why don't you start there? And so I, I, so I have every, every, uh, every two months for the last two years I've gone and done it. And, and you're right. It not only does it, it feel good for you, like you know, you're doing something good.

• 38:07Ryan Holiday?

  But there's something reaffirming about your view of humanity that happens when you're waiting in line to do this thing. And, and as you're doing it, people are coming and going and you're just thinking, yeah, some, some kids having a surgery and they're benefiting from this. Somebody just got in a car accident and they're benefiting from this. There's a terrorist attack and they're benefiting from it like ju- just, there are these things that you can do. And again, when we think of justice, we, we think such this bit, we think these big sweeping things. And the reality is there's a blood bank down the street from you that could use 30 minutes of your time. And, um, you know, you get a cookie at the end of it. You should go do it.

• 38:51Ed Mylett?

  Yep. And you just make a deposit in the bank account of humanity and you'll feel good about it.

• 38:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. I mean, it's called a blood bank. It is a bank. You are depositing something that maybe you will take a withdrawal from at some point, but certainly other people will. And, and that's, that's what it's all about.

• 39:09Ed Mylett?

  And that's also why you should see the good in people, by the way, which is in the book.

• 39:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 39:12Ed Mylett?

  I gotta ask you this because we're, by the way, you can tell with Ryan, we're going to get to an hour so quickly and it sucks because I would go three hours with him like Rogan does, but I don't do that on this show. So, but. Loyalty, again, getting a little bit older, pretty damn rare, brother.

• 39:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 39:28Ed Mylett?

  Uh, people seem to want to be loyal to people that they get something reciprocal from.

• 39:34Ryan Holiday?

  Was it?

• 39:35Ed Mylett?

  And when they can't anymore, it seems like loyalty, not only loyalty to other people, loyalty to your, your character, loyalty to your values. I know you mean that in the broader sense too, but talk about why loyalty is such an important virtue.

• 39:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, loy- loyalty is easy when everything's going well. What about when it's not going so well? And the other, the other thing I, I, I've come to understand about loyalty, there was a quote that, that struck me that's in the book. Uh, Truman was this very loyal guy and, and he was loyal and, and one of his advisors sort of goes, look, you got a break with some of these people that, that, you know, they were in the middle of some crisis and he said, look, you've been loyal to people who have not been loyal to you, right? And, and I, I thought there was something about that, that actually kind of gets to the point of what loyalty is, which is that loyalty is something you give, not something you get.

• 40:30Ryan Holiday?

  Um, the idea that loyalty is something you ask for, uh, from others, the Stokes would say that's not in your control. But are you a loyal person? How do you think about it? Are you loyal to where you came from, to the people that brought you up? You know, to the, to the causes that, you know, you got started with, that's what loyalty is as opposed to like this thing that you enforce in your organization or in your family, you know? Um, I think a lot of parents do this, that, that like loyalty is something they demand from their children as opposed to something they give to their children. Do you know what I mean?

• 41:10Ed Mylett?

  Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's really good, brother. Yeah, I need to even think through that one. Wow. Okay. You stopped me in my tracks on that a little bit. Boy, I hope they've seen that in me. Gosh darn it. That's a really good one as a dad. Holy crap. What about practicing pragmatism? I I just didn't, I I don't think I've ever read any chapter like that before in my life. I mean, it seems like just another chapter of the book, but it's not to me anyway. So go ahead and tell us about that.

• 41:39Ryan Holiday?

  Well, look, obviously, justice is about ideas, right? What is fair? What's the right thing to do? How should the world be? But the reality is, the world is not how it should be. And so it can be particularly hard for idealistic, you know, justice oriented people to handle the necessity and and frankly, the the the the the rightness of compromise, you know? Um, if if you uh, or or even just the rightness of of having to be savvy and strategic like we we were talking about. You're not going to get everything you want, and you're certainly not going to get it all right away.

• 42:23Ryan Holiday?

  And so to operate in the world, one has to figure out how to how to work with. Who did we ally with in in the Second World War? We we allied with Stalin, one of the worst human beings who ever lived. But you know what? There was one human being who was worse than Stalin, and that was Hitler, right? And so from from from a purity standpoint, that's not a good place, that you don't want to be allied with someone like that. But from a a pragmatic place, uh, Hitler, that you know, from a pragmatic place, the uh, the enemy of your enemy is your friend, right? And and so so as we bring justice in the world, not only do we have to make compromises like, hey, you get some of what you want,

• 43:07Ryan Holiday?

  I get some of what I want, but also we have to compromise sometimes on the purity of our beliefs in order to effectuate change in the real world.

• 43:20Ed Mylett?

  I'm just thinking of politics again. When you say that, like, I wish there was a little bit more of that. Like, let me get you some of what you want. The challenges in our society in the US, like you are just punished for giving the other side anything they want. And the thing that's contradictory about that, which is part three of the book, is that there are other sides. Instead of us all being one, if you could actually begin to see things from that perspective. And I, that's probably like, let's just talk about the third part a little bit because. The, and again, I keep talking about getting older. I need to stop saying that, but like, that's shifted in me.

• 43:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 43:51Ed Mylett?

  It's not us and them, or. We and they, or I'm much less that way in my life anymore. And I feel so much better about myself, my life than I. Than seeing. Just differences and distinctions and, and seeing people as separate.

• 44:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 44:11Ed Mylett?

  As opposed to. Like in my case, like some empathy, some understanding. I'm very different man than I was in some cases 20 years ago. And so if I have given myself some grace to change and grow. Why can't I give people grace when I meet them where they are now? And so the whole third part of the, the part three about, you know, all as one and all the different things in there about. You know, be an angel, forgive, make amends, like just put a bow on all of that, because I think this is awesome stuff right here.

• 44:44Ryan Holiday?

  There's only a handful of people who have ever seen the earth from space, right? And what they say to. A man and woman. Is that in that instance, as you are looking at the earth from beyond the earth. Is that all the distinctions, all the borders, all the disputes, all the disagreements, all the ideas of. Of race and culture, it just instantly disappears. Because you realize we're all living on this tiny little, what they call it, the blue marble. That, that we're all living on this tiny blue marble together and, and so many of the things that cause disagreement and conflict. You realize don't exist, right? When you look at a map, you see all the different. Boundaries and borders between countries.

• 45:29Ryan Holiday?

  When you look at the earth from space, you barely even see the distinctions of continents, right? All of what looks like one enormous landmass. And it punctuated by these enormous oceans, which dwarf the small pockets of humanity that exist. And so, so yeah, remembering how connected we all are, how how much more we have in common than we do different. The Stoics had this this image, and it's very powerful. They they said, look, we're like this dot. And then there are these concentric circles around us. You know, there's our family, there's the the our neighborhood, there's our state, our country, you know, the strategic empire that we're a part of.

• 46:11Ryan Holiday?

  There's human beings, then there's the animal kingdom, then there's all life on earth. There's everyone that's ever going to be born, right? And and and and the idea is that they said that the purpose of philosophy was to start to pull some of these outer rings inward. And so that word empathy, you said, it's it's the ability to to take people who are different than you, people who are doing things you don't like, doing things you don't understand, and and starting to see what you have in common with them, starting to feel affection and and connection with them,

• 46:51Ryan Holiday?

  and bringing them inwards as opposed to pushing them out, which is what a lot of us do. We go, they're others, they're different, they're awful. This is what Lincoln did so beautifully during the Civil War. He understood that slavery was an irredeemable evil that needed to be eradicated. But at the same time, he said of the South, we are just what they they are just what we would be in their position. His point was, if I had been born in a slave state and grown up owning slaves, I would have so much trouble seeing what is clear to me from the outside. And so the ability to do that and then work with that person and try to nudge them towards.

• 47:35Ryan Holiday?

  A better place. That's what justice is about.

• 47:38Ed Mylett?

  Bruh, so good. Like, you know, everyone, I gotta tell you, like, I get credit sometimes, you know, obviously I make lots of mistakes, but like, speaking is one of my things that, you know, I'm pretty good at. And one of the things I always try to picture before I go out and actually feel, this is vibrational frequency is gonna be very different than what Ryan talks about, but I want to merge it. I actually picture us all as one.

• 48:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 48:01Ed Mylett?

  We're all a family. And in my case, we're all God's children. And so when I come out, I think I emanate that energy. I think I vibrate on that frequency and there's a connection emotionally that maybe you wouldn't get if someone didn't have that focus. The other day I had,

• 48:16Ed Mylett?

  you know, a meeting that was coming up, very contentious meeting, and everybody around me is like, you need to lay into these people. They are, and everything on paper, Ryan, these people were out to hammer us, right? Like, they were. And I'd never pictured them before. And so they're coming over to this meeting with me and man, I am, I'm pretty wound up, right? It's been weeks and it's brewing and brewing and it's a very, they present a challenge. And I've pictured them as these monsters and then they, they walk up and they're, they're this guy brought his wife with them. It's this older couple. They seem like very kind people and instantly, I literally just said a quick prayer. I just said, peace be with you.

• 48:57Ed Mylett?

  I mean, I literally, and all, I just shifted my energy into, we're one. This is my brother or sister. We see these things. And this meeting went incredible. I don't know how it went yet. I don't know the results, but I know this at the end, when he shook my hand, he goes, sincerely, I can't believe we had such a beautiful experience. I enjoyed my time with you so much. And I said, so did I. Now, I don't know where the meeting is gonna go, but I know the percentage chances of it going the way that I would prefer it, it's gonna go. It's a whole lot higher and that's not why I did it.

• 49:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 49:29Ed Mylett?

  It just changed our vibrational frequency by giving empathy to one another and a prayer that we were one. So.

• 49:34Ryan Holiday?

  And even if it doesn't go the way that you, even if you don't get the outcome you wanted, wasn't the process better? You know what I mean? The process was at least not torturous.

• 49:44Ed Mylett?

  Correct. And by the way, I was able to make all the points, everybody, that I wanted to make that, that needed to be made with a different tone, a different energy.

• 49:54Ed Mylett?

  I frankly, I stuck to my virtues and values and being mean or condescending or big timing them or threatening them or bullying them like I probably would have done when I was younger, isn't consistent with who I want to be. And although it might have worked short-term when I was younger, I didn't particularly feel very good about myself. And even from a strategic standpoint, as Ryan's talked about, I think this way of going about it requires a little bit more articulation, requires a little bit more thought, a little bit more strategy, but I actually believe is a more effective way. But to your point, I feel better about me going forward and, and they will as well. It just, man, I just frankly, I wasn't tired after that meeting like I normally would be

• 50:39Ed Mylett?

  because I would have to exhaust so much of me that's the bad side.

• 50:43Ryan Holiday?

  That's beautiful. I love that.

• 50:44Ed Mylett?

  Well, it's your work. It's not mine.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends, like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an ultra because it's not just a superior light beer. It's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser-Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 51:19Ed Mylett?

  Last question.

• 51:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 51:22Ed Mylett?

  And I'm surprised I was reading this stuff about you're talking about toxic masculinity. And so it's interesting coming from you because, you know, sometimes your work, when people don't know it, is accused of creating that. Yet, when I saw your comments about it, I thought, well, gosh, he's almost on the other side more than maybe even I am. But if I had to err on the side in the real world, I frankly meet a lot of men, in my opinion, who need to be more virtuous and stronger.

• 51:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 51:50Ed Mylett?

  Not less. So why is it, even that term, why is masculinity in your mind, even, or maybe it's not, toxic? Because I don't feel like being masculine means anything more than the things that we're talking about in your writings here.

• 52:06Ryan Holiday?

  No, that's a good point. Look, I don't have a problem with being strong or being tough. I don't have a problem with combat sports or, or driving Lamborghinis or, or, working hard or making a lot. I don't have a problem with any of that. Well, I think what I, what I am especially concerned about and trying to take uh, some very specific efforts is some, but political correctness is annoying and obnoxious. And sometimes people are too sensitive and, you know, the world is, is a, is a, can be a harsh place. And if you think everyone is going to love you and be nice to you all the time, you know, you're going to have a hard time in life.

• 52:51Ryan Holiday?

  What I don't like, though, is this kind of embracing of cruelty and meanness and, and like, intending to be offensive as if that is itself a virtue. So I'll give you an example. Um, I don't control uh, whether someone, how my words are received by someone else. Right? Um, at the same time, I do control whether I go out of my way to be considerate and kind and appreciate somebody else's experience. Does that make sense? And, and I think, I think there's been an overreaction or overcorrection in our culture.

• 53:32Ryan Holiday?

  That is leaning towards almost the celebration of meanness and cruelty. To make this precise, look, I guess we can have a variety of opinions on, you know, the science behind being trans, its role in society, what, what, you know, we should allow, what, what treatment should be allowed for children, etc. At the same time, it's obviously very difficult to be trans, right? And so I want to go, I want to think about what it would be like to wake up every day

• 54:12Ryan Holiday?

  and be under the view that your, your gender, which you were, you got at birth, doesn't match how you feel inside. And I want to think about what it's like to be that person. And I'm not only not going to go out of my way to make life hard for that person. I want to think about what I can do and say and what we can do as a society that makes life bearable for that person. Because that's our job for all people, whether we're talking about someone who's in a wheelchair, whether we're talking about someone who's gay, whether we're talking about someone who's a, who's a nerd, you know, whether we're talking about someone who is come here from another country. To me, what justice is, what being a good person is, is, is just thinking about

• 54:55Ryan Holiday?

  what it must be like to have the experiences of another person and to go out of our way to be considerate and conscientious to that experience. And I just think the internet depersonalizing these things and feeding on conflict and tension and, and anger has created this environment where, especially for young men, there's almost this performative cruelty and, and bullying that, um, that is not only not good for the victims of that stuff, but they themselves are a victim because it's making them, it's, it's dulling very important and positive traits that men and women both have.

• 55:40Ryan Holiday?

  But I think women do, women's culture does a better job nurturing and supporting, if that makes sense.

• 55:48Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, fair enough. I think like anything in society, maybe there's the two extremes. There is that internet version of the cruel version. And then there's the extremes I meet in my life where I'm like, dude, you need to step up and be stronger and stop blaming everybody and you know, get your act together. I see both of those things. And then there's probably a bunch of dudes that live in the middle. But I don't disagree with you on those things. Actually, I'm glad you clarified it. I really do. You know, I those of you that are believers, you know, one of our jobs is to love everybody.

• 56:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 56:20Ed Mylett?

  And empathy and a little bit less judgment and assessment. And

• 56:25Ryan Holiday?

  I yeah, you you think about who Jesus was. And I think the thing that jumps out to me most about Jesus was his willingness, not just his willingness to to tolerate the sort of poorest and weakest of society. But that's who he had the most affection and compassion and love for, right? Like that. Those were the people that lit him up that that he that he sought out when he would go into a town or a city, he wasn't like, show me the richest, show me the toughest, show me your most important people. You know, he went to the prostitutes or to the beggars or to the to the lepers, you know, he he had this affinity for not just all human beings,

• 57:06Ryan Holiday?

  but he had a special affinity for the people whom life was the hardest.

• 57:12Ed Mylett?

  He would care for them.

• 57:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah. It's a beautiful thing.

• 57:16Ed Mylett?

  It was. This has been a beautiful conversation.

• 57:18Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, man.

• 57:19Ed Mylett?

  Ooh, he's go a little deep. I love it. So

• 57:21Ryan Holiday?

  I love it, too. Well, we'll have to do it in person. And you got to tell me when you're in Austin next. I want to I want to have you out.

• 57:27Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, I will. Okay, I'll let you know. I'm speaking there three or four times a year. So I'll let you know. I definitely will. Enjoyed today. Guys, Ryan's book, by the way, is right thing right now. Good values, good character, good deeds. You can tell this is his books are not short on content and and specifics, and neither is Ryan ever. So very grateful. Go get the book, everybody. Ryan, thank you. Appreciate it.

• 57:47Ryan Holiday?

  Thank you.

• 57:48Ed Mylett?

  All right. God bless you, everybody. Max out your life.