Why Don’t Running Backs Get Paid Anymore? (Update) | Freakonomics Radio

They used to be the N. F. L.’s biggest stars, with paychecks to match. Now their salaries are near the bottom, and their careers are shorter than ever. In this updated episode from 2025, we speak with an analytics guru, an agent, an economist, and some former running backs to understand why. You can find the transcript and show notes for this episode on our website here: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-dont-running-backs-get-paid-anymore-update/ FOLLOW FREAKONOMICS RADIO: YouTube: https://freak.ws/3yIl6dl Apple Podcasts: https://freak.ws/3yAvQh0 Spotify: https://freak.ws/3TsdCmV ABOUT FREAKONOMICS RADIO: Discover the hidden side of everything with host Stephen J. Dubner, co-author of the Freakonomics books. Each week, Dubner speaks with Nobel laureates and provocateurs, intellectuals and entrepreneurs, and various other underachievers to uncover things you always thought you knew (but didn’t) and things you never thought you wanted to know (but do) — from the economics of sleep to the future of education, from markets for marriage to the surprising utility of wolves. ABOUT THE FREAKONOMICS RADIO NETWORK: Freakonomics began as a book, which led to a blog, a documentary film, more books, a pair of pants, and in 2010, a podcast called Freakonomics Radio. Hosted by Stephen J. Dubner, it’s one of the most popular podcasts in the world, with a reputation for storytelling that is both rigorous and entertaining. Its archive of more than 500 episodes is available, for free, on any podcast app, and the show airs weekly on NPR stations. Freakonomics Radio is now the flagship show of the Freakonomics Radio Network, which includes the podcasts No Stupid Questions, People I (Mostly) Admire, and The Economics of Everyday Things. FREAKONOMICS RADIO NETWORK PODCASTS: Freakonomics Radio: https://freakonomics.com/series/freakonomics-radio/ No Stupid Questions: https://freakonomics.com/series/nsq/ People I (Mostly) Admire: https://freakonomics.com/series/people-i-mostly-admire/ The Economics of Everyday Things: https://freakonomics.com/series/everyday-things/ Special series: https://freakonomics.com/topics/ CONNECT WITH US: [email protected] https://twitter.com/freakonomics https://www.instagram.com/freakonomics/ https://www.facebook.com/freakonomics/ https://www.tiktok.com/@freakonomicsradio https://www.linkedin.com/company/freakonomics-media Subscribe to our newsletter: http://eepurl.com/bKm0cf

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey there. It's Stephen Dubner. In a matchup that absolutely no one would have predicted, the Seattle Seahawks will play the New England Patriots in this year's Super Bowl. The most prominent players on those teams are New England quarterback Drake May and Seattle wide receiver Jackson Smith and Jigba. You'll notice I did not name a running back. Why not? That's what this episode is about. We first ran it last season, and now we've updated facts and figures as necessary. As always, thanks for listening.

• 0:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  The National Football League, a phenomenally successful piece of the sports and entertainment industry, is largely built around the forward pass. That's when the quarterback, the star of the show, throws the ball downfield to one of his sprinting receivers who tries to catch the ball and sprint even further down the field. This can be a very exciting thing to watch. In recent years, the passing game has gotten even more exciting and more sophisticated, and it has helped drive the league's massive growth. But if you ask football fans of a certain age who they idolized when they were kids, it probably wasn't a wide receiver or even a quarterback. It was probably a running back.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Big opening for Tony Dorsett. Look out, he's got great speed. 99 yards.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  Tony Dorsett was my favorite player. I had the uniform, the helmet. The running backs were bigger stars during my childhood than the quarterbacks.

• 1:39Speaker 03

  My favorite player of all time was Barry Sanders. The day that he retired, I remember crying.

• 1:48Speaker 04

  I had a Ricky Waters jersey. When he was with the Eagles, actually, I wore it on the first day of school, I think of first or second grade.

• 2:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  The three men we just heard from, we will meet them later. Two of them are former NFL running backs themselves, and the other has represented many running backs as an agent. The running back I loved as a kid was Franco Harris of the Pittsburgh Steelers. To be honest, I was a little obsessed with Franco. We don't need to get into the details here, but I did once write a book about him called Confessions of a Hero Worshipper. Like I said, a little bit obsessed. I liked everything about Franco, the way he carried himself off the field, but especially how he ran. Some running backs, like Jim Brown, were known for their power, for running people over. Others, like Gale Sayers,

• 2:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  were so fast and graceful that it was hard to get a hand on them. Franco was somewhere in the middle, strong but elusive, a darter and a dodger. In football, every play is a miniature drama packed into just a few seconds. 22 athletes moving at once, as complicated as a blueprint, as brutal as war, as delicate as ballet. A passing play is a bit of a magic trick. The quarterback and receiver try to trick the downfield defenders into being in the wrong place at the right time. A running play is more predictable since the running back has to get through a wall of massive defenders.

• 3:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  But if he does and breaks free into open space, that is a special kind of thrill. Back when Franco Harris was in the league and for a long time after, many of the game's biggest stars were running backs, and they were paid accordingly. If you go back 30 years and take the average salary of the top players by position, running backs ranked second, just behind quarterbacks. This year, running backs ranked 15th. So what happened? Everyone knows the NFL has become much more pass happy these last few decades, but still, how did running backs fall so far? As it turns out, I wasn't the only one with these questions.

• 4:06Speaker 05

  I was really interested in why salaries of running backs have declined and why they seem to be less important parts of the offense than I remembered.

• 4:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Roland Fryer, an economist at Harvard and a friend of Freakonomics, wrote a Wall Street Journal column last football season called "The Economics of Running Backs."

• 4:24Speaker 05

  It's been kind of a slow drip, a slow decline of running backs. And then you think, why? What is it?

• 4:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  I asked Roland if he would sit for an interview to help answer those questions. He said yes, but he had another idea that he insisted would be even more fun. So here's the thing that really puzzles me. When I called you up and asked if we could talk about your Wall Street Journal column and make an episode based on this idea, you said, yes, and I would actually like to co-host that episode. Can you explain that? I know very few Harvard economists or anybody, really, who's interested in co-hosting a grubby little podcast.

• 5:06Speaker 05

  I've always had a crush on you, Stephen, so I just want to get closer.

• 5:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, other than that, I guess the serious question I'm asking is, what kind of questions do you hope to answer or explore as we move forward? You've got some data, you've talked to a bunch of people, but plainly, your appetite is deeper than that. Why? What do you want to know?

• 5:28Speaker 05

  I think it's such an intriguing question. It's one of these things where your intuition and your eyeballs can oftentimes be inconsistent with what the actual data tells us. Where does our intuition fail us? I think it does it a lot in life. I'm just fascinated by human behavior generally, but how we think about the use of my favorite subject, economics, when it comes to issues like valuing positions in a game that's as complex as football.

• 5:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  So today on Freakonomics Radio, Roland Fryer and I explore the decline of the running back. We speak with one of the analytics gurus who sparked the revolution.

• 6:11Speaker 06

  Once I built that model, it was very, very clear that passing was far superior to running.

• 6:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  We will hear an agent explain why the position is so difficult.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  The running back is the most violent position in the most violent sport on the planet.

• 6:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  And of course, we will get the running back perspective. The quarterback got all the credit for taking it to the Super Bowl, and he did the bare minimum. Last year's Super Bowl was won by the Philadelphia Eagles, whose running back Saquon Barkley had a historically great season. Was that the sign of a running back renaissance? I don't think so. The causes and consequences of the running back decline, starting now.

• 7:08Speaker 07

  This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 7:24Speaker 05

  So, look, I'm of two minds about this because I have this job at Harvard. I'd give it away in a second if I could have been an NFL player, right?

• 7:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Roland Fryer is a Harvard economist. He has also co-founded a few companies, and he's won some major awards for his research on education and policing. You may remember him from an episode we made a few years ago called Roland Fryer Refuses to Lie to Black America. But when he was a kid, he did not dream of being an economist. In the early 1980s, when the running backs Eric Dickerson and Walter Payton were tearing up the NFL, Roland was doing the same in Pop Warner football.

• 8:07Speaker 05

  I started playing football aged five. The coach asked me to race their fastest player and I won and he said, you're on the team. In Texas, you play flag football, five and six years old and seven years old onwards, you strap on the pads and go to work. The coolest thing about playing was that they had a legitimate draft. You'd run a 40 yard dash, you'd kick the ball, you'd throw the ball, you'd catch some balls. They had a little shed there at the fields. They'd put all your measurements up and then the coaches would select by lottery who went first. So we cared about where we were drafted as early as like eight or nine years old.

• 8:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  And how did you do in the draft?

• 8:45Speaker 05

  Oh, man, I was always the number one draft pick.

• 8:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  So what was your view of the running back position then? Did you just feel like you were king of the hill?

• 8:53Speaker 05

  Of course, because it was Texas Pop Warner football. My coaches early on told me my real talent was what they called running to the light, that you would just figure out where the gaps were and go. And it was all intuition. You'd score five, six touchdowns a game. I loved it. I absolutely loved playing football and running backs were revered back then.

• 9:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  It wasn't just back then in the early eighties that running backs were revered. They had been at the center of the game since it began in the mid 1800s. It wasn't until 1906 that the forward pass was allowed in professional football. The NFL was founded in 1920 and for its first few decades, passing was rare. On the vast majority of plays, the ball was snapped to the quarterback, who would then hand it off to a running back, who would follow the blocks of his offensive lineman to try to get through the defensive lineman. It was not necessarily exciting. Football was a slow and grinding affair. Three yards and a cloud of dust was how people described it.

• 10:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Perhaps not coincidentally, football was not very popular either. The big American sports back then were baseball and boxing. It wasn't until the 1960s and 70s with the rise of the passing game that football started to become the juggernaut it is today. But for at least a couple more decades, running backs remained the star attraction. The position has always required a certain amount of physical sacrifice.

• 10:30Speaker 05

  Every part of football is physical, right? But when you're running the ball, it's not just the person in front of you that you're going into. People are coming from the side and taking hits at knees. You can get rolled up on. There's a lot of bodies there.

• 10:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  So how long ago did you start thinking about this decline in the value of the running back?

• 10:49Speaker 05

  Years, because it's been a slow decline of running backs. And it's my favorite position. I thought, why are my boys being paid less when these quarterbacks, who aren't nearly as tough as running backs, are being paid more? I grew up in the era of Barry Sanders, Walter Payton, Emmitt Smith. I've always liked these really, really explosive running backs, just because they look like pure athletes. So the non-economist in me wanted them to be paid more. The economist in me understands that marginal value is what matters, and that's what's happening.

• 11:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Friar put his research skills to work.

• 11:26Speaker 05

  The first thing to do was to walk through and just verify those basic statistics, right? Look at the salaries as a share of total spend of running backs relative to quarterbacks. And of course, that's what you find out. You can verify the intuition very quickly, that the proportion of spend for running backs has gone down over time, and quarterbacks much higher.

• 11:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  And not just quarterbacks much higher, everybody else on the offensive team.

• 11:51Speaker 05

  Everybody, right? And so the running backs, they've had the biggest drop relative to any other position.

• 11:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  This season, the average salary of a starting quarterback in the NFL was just over $30 million. The average for starting running backs? $7 million. There are still plenty of running backs who are considered superstars. Saquon Barkley, Derrick Henry, Josh Jacobs, Christian McCaffrey.

• 12:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  But they're not paid like superstars. None of those four are among the five highest paid players on their team. Why not? Roland Fryer wondered whether this was a supply story or a demand story. In other words, were running backs just not as good as they used to be? Or did teams no longer value what running backs had to offer?

• 12:35Speaker 05

  So the first thing I did was test a bunch of supply side theories. We went and collected all the data we could on passing yards, running yards over the years by team, et cetera. But also, we needed to understand the characteristics of the players. So we looked at combine statistics and all the data we could collect from there in terms of 40 speed, three cone drill speeds, which is a measure of explosiveness, bench press, all those kinds of things.

• 13:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  The NFL Combine is a showcase where teams assess the abilities of the college players they are looking to draft.

• 13:07Speaker 05

  And what we found was that running backs, in terms of their abilities in the combine, have not changed. So the supply going in has not changed. And importantly, because it is a team sport, the supply of the other people around them hasn't changed much. But what has changed is the expected value of a passing play relative to a running play. The NFL and the teams want to maximize wins, maximize revenue. And the way you do that is that you score a lot of points. The way you score a lot of points is that you pass the ball more. Pretty simple.

• 13:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is it that simple? To find out, we wanted to hear from some running backs. Roland took the first interview.

• 13:50Speaker 05

  Are we ready?

• 13:51Speaker 03

  Yeah. One, two, three, four, eggs, turkey bacon, never pork, little pancakes, light syrup, OJ, you know?

• 13:59Speaker 05

  So just give me your name and what you do.

• 14:02Speaker 03

  My name is LaShaw McCoy. I'm an ex NFL decade running back for the Eagles, the Bills, the Chiefs, and the Bucks.

• 14:09Speaker 05

  Tell me about your early memories of playing running back.

• 14:12Speaker 03

  So I was about five years old. You're supposed to play at six, but I loved the game so much, I lied to them until I was six when I was really five.

• 14:20Speaker 05

  Were y'all hitting at five?

• 14:21Speaker 03

  I mean, we had pads on. I won't call it hitting. We had pads on. Back in the day, man, it was different. When we're hanging out in the neighborhoods, we would call this thing free for all. It would be like seven, eight kids, and we would throw the ball. And one dude had to make all eight guys miss.

• 14:35Speaker 05

  I want people to hear from you, like what it's like playing running back. I mean, what part of it is mental, physical? How much of it can be taught versus instincts?

• 14:44Speaker 03

  It's one of the most unique positions on the field. Because you're the farthest one back. So you see everything going on. And as a running back, you have a job to do every single play. Wide receivers, they can take a play off. But running backs don't have that because we're either running the ball or we're blocking. Or we're in the passing routes. One part of it is really the skill, natural gifts from God. And the other part is studying and learning. And I tell other young backs now is let your natural instincts happen, right? But being a student of the game, learning like, okay, every defense has a weak point. Your job is really like to find that.

• 15:24Speaker 05

  Tell me, in your view, why is the running back market like it is today? I mean, do you feel like the current situation is unfair? Do you feel like it's fine?

• 15:32Speaker 03

  I hate it. It's unfair. It's unfair because you're telling me that you'd be a great difference maker as a running back. And because I don't play quarterback, I can't get paid the right value for my position. You're telling me that because I don't play quarterback, I gotta play elite level every year to get elite money? But the quarterback can play above average for years. And one year be pretty good. And now you're about to get elite money? Think about that. Guys like Josh Jacobs, really, really good running back. Played on bad teams and still played well. In his last year with the Raiders, he said, yo, you know, I led the league in rushing and they didn't offer me a contract. Can you imagine the world where a quarterback leads the league in passing yards?

• 16:17Speaker 03

  And he don't get offered a contract?

• 16:20Speaker 05

  But on the other hand, I don't see any Super Bowl winners in the last 20 years with a mediocre quarterback. Maybe Brad Johnson of the Tampa Bay Bucks. I see several with average running backs and really good quarterbacks. Is that a reason that the quarterback position is valued more?

• 16:37Speaker 03

  Well, it's tricky because the few quarterbacks in the last five, six years, these guys have been like all-pro quarterbacks. Brady, he's still one in there. Stafford's still one in there. Mahomes got three in there. These ain't just regular guys. This is winning Super Bowls. In 2019, I was blessed to be with the Kansas City Chiefs, and I won a championship with them guys. Patrick Mahomes had to come back in the fourth quarter to win that game. But then I look across the field, we're playing the Niners. The whole week, the game preparation was, all we gotta do was get the third down. Why is that? Because we want this quarterback that was paid all this money to throw the ball on third down. His name was Jimmy G. That's who that was.

• 17:19Speaker 03

  The brother threw like 40 something passes the whole playoffs. And the undrafted running backs carried them. The quarterback got all the credit for taking it to the Super Bowl, and he did the bare minimum. Oh, we go to New York. A dude like Saquon Barkley can be that good? And you'd rather pay Dane Jones? How the hell is that fair?

• 17:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let's pull back here, just in case you didn't follow the psychodrama with the New York Giants that McCoy was talking about. Saquon Barkley is a name that comes up again and again in the argument about the value of a running back, in part because of the monster season he had last year with the Eagles. But it's even more interesting than that. The Giants took Barkley in the 2018 draft with the second overall pick. His five seasons in New York ranged from good to very good. He was hurt a few times, and the Giants' offensive line was weak, but he was still considered a top running back. The Giants chose to not offer him a new contract. Instead, they used what's called a franchise tag. That's an NFL rule that allows a team to keep a good player for one year

• 18:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  at a relatively high salary, rather than letting him become a free agent and pursue a longer-term deal. While the Giants had Barkley on this one-year hold, they gave their quarterback, Daniel Jones, a four-year contract averaging $40 million a year. When Barkley became a free agent, he left the Giants and signed a three-year contract with the Philadelphia Eagles for about $12 million a year. So, less than a third of what Daniel Jones was being paid. And how did Jones and Barkley do the following year? Barkley had one of the best seasons an NFL running back has ever had, and his Eagles won the Super Bowl. Daniel Jones played so badly that the Giants benched him and then released him.

• 19:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Like LaShawn McCoy asked, how is that fair? Well, fair may not be the right word. The real issue is value, the value of a running play versus the value of a passing play.

• 19:28Speaker 06

  The run pass balance. There was this perennial question, do teams run too often or they not run often enough?

• 19:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Brian Burke, a sports data scientist with ESPN.

• 19:41Speaker 06

  And so there was this question, and so people came along and they started to analyze the question and they didn't really have the right tools.

• 19:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Brian, the reason I was really eager to speak with you is that Roland wrote this piece in the Wall Street Journal about the decline of running back salaries. And I've been told that if we had to point to one person in the universe who is perhaps most responsible for that decline, it might be you. Do you want to claim that credit or blame?

• 20:12Speaker 06

  I won't argue against it. I was part of a larger movement that I may have been at the forefront of it, but I certainly wasn't alone.

• 20:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Describe your role in that larger movement, then.

• 20:25Speaker 06

  My role in this was my hobby, which was football stats and what eventually became known as analytics.

• 20:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, football stats were only a hobby at the time because you were a US Navy pilot, correct?

• 20:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, went to flight school, made it into F-18s, flew single seat fighters for my career in the Navy. They sent me to Monterey to grad school and that's where I learned my stats. I thought this is completely useless. Like, how am I ever going to use this in the Navy? But once I got out of the Navy, I thought, gosh, the level of analysis in football is so bad.

• 20:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  What were your early jobs between getting out of the Navy and doing what you do now?

• 21:01Speaker 06

  I have to be a little bit careful. I live in Northern Virginia. I was recruited.

• 21:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  By something with three letters, maybe?

• 21:08Speaker 06

  To do some government stuff for a while that didn't last too long.

• 21:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Your choice or their choice?

• 21:13Speaker 06

  It was complicated. I became a single dad and raised two kids, so it was just incompatible.

• 21:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  But you ended up working around another three-letter institution, the NFL.

• 21:24Speaker 06

  A lot of three letters. Most of my time between the Navy and doing football for the day job, I was a defense contractor and I was a tactics and strategy expert and instructor. And I would shirk all my daily responsibilities to crunch football numbers all day long. So I'll tell you the origin story, kind of a water cooler conversation with my good friend, coworker, John Moser. The conversation came around to like defense wins championships, right? The old standby, you know? And I was like, well, does it? I don't know. Like they say that, but does it really? What do people mean by that? And I thought, my God, I have this software left over from grad school.

• 22:05Speaker 06

  And, you know, they put all the stats online now. So this is like 2006. I said, hey, you know what? We can just download the data and by the end of lunch, we can answer this question forever. And that was the genesis of, you know, football analytics for me. When I began doing this, I hadn't read Moneyball. I didn't know that existed. It was an advantage because the baseball people tried to put it on the football for a long time. The kind of tools and the kind of analysis just doesn't work on football. I came from this military background and I'm like, this is war. This is zero sum, two-player game theory, and that paradigm took hold.

• 22:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  In what ways would you say that your military background contributed to the way that you frame the questions you're trying to answer in football?

• 22:55Speaker 06

  There's this optimization element to it. In the same way in the military, you have a mix of strategies. It's not like always do this or always do that. You have to be unpredictable in a way that keeps your enemy or your opponent on his heels. There's a famous thinker in military aviation named John Boyd, who invented this thing called the OODA loop, if you've ever heard of that. And keeping the enemy confused and disoriented and in a state of ambiguity is one of the goals in American fighting theory. Football works the same way.

• 23:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  So in a warlike setting, when you're trying to advance into enemy territory, which weapon is more valuable, the ground game or the passing game? Brian Burke's analytic approach allowed him to answer that question.

• 23:51Speaker 06

  I was able to build something called expected points and expected points added. It's a point expectancy model based on down distance and yard line. Once I built that model, the very first thing I did was just aggregate by play type. And it was very, very clear at that moment that passing was far superior to running. Teams are running far too often. And the way you know that is because if they're doing each in the optimum mix, the payoffs would equalize. There would be what people commonly refer to in game theory as the Nash equilibrium. As long as you have an intelligent opponent, you can assume that that equilibrium is going to be the optimum mix. And they were far out of whack.

• 24:36Speaker 06

  From that moment on, we knew that you need to pass more.

• 24:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  What year was this?

• 24:40Speaker 06

  2008 is when I first did this, but it took years to permeate the football world. It was a slow process.

• 24:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let's back up a bit. You don't have to go back to the 1920s or the 1950s, but pick whatever seems like a sensible starting point in modern NFL history and tell me how the running game evolved and was eventually superseded by the passing game.

• 25:04Speaker 06

  I think Franco Harris is a good starting point for the modern era. That's where people of our age grew up learning our football and same with coaches. This is the 1970s. In those days, passing was very, very difficult. So running was a much better strategy. And then in 1978, the league massively rewrote the rules that had to do with passing, not just illegal contact, the way linemen could pass block radically changed. And the league is still catching up to this day in terms of exploiting those rule changes. Over time, different systems started to exploit the new rules. Then 2004, they changed the rules again.

• 25:45Speaker 06

  So over time, the potency of the running game compared to the passing game has decreased steadily.

• 25:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  So the story you're telling me is simply that football people, including coaches and analytics people like you. Have been discovering over the years that passing is more valuable than running. Additionally, the league itself decided over many years to make passing more prominent by rule changes. And so now we've just arrived at this new circumstance where passing is just more valuable than running. Where does that leave the running back in the modern football economy?

• 26:25Speaker 06

  Well, he's just not going to be as valuable. The star running back is not going to carry you to a Super Bowl. It hasn't happened in generations.

• 26:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, you may be thinking, I understand that running backs have become somewhat less valuable, but are they really that much less valuable? The answer to that question has to do with something that happened in 2011.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  The average fan doesn't fully appreciate that the NFL is a huge business.

• 26:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's coming up after the break. I'm Stephen Dubner and you are listening to Freakonomics Radio.

• 27:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Last year, the economist Roland Fryer and I teamed up to try to learn why running back salaries have fallen so much since their heyday. Salaries are driven in part by where a player is selected in the NFL draft. In 1990, 12 running backs were taken in the first two rounds of the draft. Last year, there were two. So what's driving this decline? We've already heard about the analytics revolution that showed the value of passing versus running. We've heard about rule changes the NFL adopted to privilege the passing game. But there was another big change in 2011 that shook things up for NFL rookies generally and running backs in particular.

• 27:57Speaker 04

  The team has control of you for five years.

• 28:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Robert Turbin. He was an NFL running back for four teams over eight seasons, including a Super Bowl win with the Seattle Seahawks. Today, he does football commentary for CBS Sports. Roland Fryer spoke with him. Why do you think the running back market is so challenging today?

• 28:18Speaker 04

  Number one, the CBA. That's the meat and potatoes of the conversation when it comes to the running backs.

• 28:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  The CBA is the collective bargaining agreement, the contract between NFL teams and the NFL Players Association, the union that represents the athletes. The negotiations over a CBA are long and often contentious as they establish pay standards and other terms for years to come. The current CBA was agreed to in 2020 and runs through the 2030 season. The one before that went into effect in 2011. Overall, the 2011 CBA was a lucrative affair for the players. Their share of league revenues rose from 42% to 47%. But that agreement also came with some restrictions for rookies. Before 2011, a drafted player

• 29:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  could freely negotiate a contract with the team that chose him. This led to some bad deals for teams when the player didn't play well or got hurt. The 2011 agreement created a rookie wage scale that set contract terms based on draft order. It also mandated a four-year contract with a cost-controlled fifth-year option that their team could exercise. This structure is still in place today, and that's what Robert Turbin is talking about when he tells Roland Fryer that the team has control of you for five years.

• 29:43Speaker 04

  What happens is you come into the league as a 22-year-old rookie, and basically, you are handcuffed for five years. So realistically, you don't have an opportunity to re-up or get a second contract until you're 27 years old.

• 30:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  For some positions in football, including quarterback, a player is just coming into his prime at age 27. That is not the case for running backs.

• 30:13Speaker 04

  By the time you're 27 years old, if you've carried the ball 250 times per year, they're going to look at those numbers and say, well, He may not have it the way he used to. That may not be true for most running backs. It is true for some. The CBA is really what devalued the position. Because let's say you were able to get out of that contract or re-up out of that contract after three years. Now you're a 25-year-old back still in his prime with an opportunity to maximize on economics from a contractual standpoint.

• 30:52Speaker 05

  It seems like there is some relationship between the CBA and durability, which is if you've got to wait for five years, and as you say, you've carried the ball this number of times, then executives are going to look at that and say, how much more does he have in the tank? So durability is part of it through the CBA, right?

• 31:09Speaker 04

  100%. I mean, five years is, that's obviously not a full career. That's not the type of career you would imagine for yourself. But we know that the average is less than three. I was fortunate to play eight for a back. That's pretty damn good. I'll never forget when I was in Indianapolis. This was 2017. I'm 27 years old and I'm talking to a scout from another team. And I dislocated my elbow in week six of that year. So I was coming back. He asked me, he says, how old are you? I said, I'm 27. He said, oh, okay. So you got about another year or so left. And I said, what? Like, what are you talking about?

• 31:52Speaker 04

  But that's the thought process for a lot of executives until proven wrong. It's almost like you're guilty until proven innocent as a running back.

• 32:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  If you go back 20 years, the average career length for an NFL running back was around five and a half years. That number started dropping right around the 2011 collective bargaining agreement. And today, the average length is around two and a half years. Let's hear now from another former running back, Robert Smith. Like Robert Turbin, Smith played for eight years. All of his were with the Minnesota Vikings. Smith retired after the 2000 season.

• 32:37Speaker 08

  It was always kind of a badge of honor to play the position because it is a very physical position and there are times when you have to block players that outweigh you by a large amount. It's not for the faint of heart.

• 32:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Today, Smith calls NFL and college games for Fox Sports. His reverence for the running back position goes deep.

• 32:59Speaker 08

  Only the quarterback has the ball in their hands more. And so you have, I think, one of the greatest opportunities to impact the outcome of a game on every running play. 11 guys are trying to hit the same person and that's the guy who has the ball. It's the challenging part, but it's also the rewarding part that you were able to get by them. I hold the NFL record for the longest average per touchdown run at more than 26 yards. And I got to tell you, it's a feeling that I wish everybody could experience when you break into the open and you know you're going to score a touchdown.

• 33:37Speaker 08

  It's like when you're leaning back in a chair and you almost tip and fall and you get this rush of adrenaline. It's like this sudden burst of excitement that I'm about to score a touchdown.

• 33:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Those occasional bursts of excitement are of course offset by thousands of hours of training and by the physical punishment.

• 34:03Speaker 08

  I tore my ACL my rookie season, but in that injury, I also broke the bottom of my femur and did some damage to the articular cartilage, which is the smooth cartilage that's on the tip of the bone. And I needed to have a micro fracture. It's a procedure where they tap on the exposed surface of the bone. And then I needed to have that again after my last season in the league. So there I was, a couple of months shy of my 29th birthday. It was the only season I didn't miss any games and I still. Needed to have knee surgery after the year. And the thing that I said was, you know, if you would pay any amount of money to get your health back, if you lost it, then what amount of money is worth the very real chance that you'll lose it?

• 34:48Speaker 08

  It was the calculation that was going on in my head. That's why I left the game when I did. I'm thinking quite literally, it's better to walk away early than to limp away late.

• 35:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Robert Smith had a lot of reasons to walk away. A lot of things beyond football that excited him. He is an amateur astronomer, a prolific reader. And in addition to his broadcasting duties, he is working on a health and wellness startup. Plus which, he made good money as a younger man. His final contract paid him $25 million over five years. In his last season, the best of his career, he ranked second in the NFL in rushing yards. But it was clear by then that running back money was drying up. Every team has a league imposed salary cap and they're constantly trying to figure out which players they can give less money to

• 35:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  in order to give more money to the players they think they cannot win without. And running backs had fallen off the cannot win without list. Over the past few decades, NFL revenues have more than doubled to about $20 billion a year. Since players get a percentage share of revenues, that means the overall player pool has also more than doubled. But running backs have barely shared in that gain. The pay for running backs and full backs over the past two decades has risen around 11%. For all other offensive positions, salaries have risen at least 90%. If you don't believe me, just ask an agent.

• 36:22Speaker 02

  Jeffrey Whitney, I am one of the founders and president at the Sports and Entertainment Group, a full-service sports agency in Washington DC. Been doing it for 20 plus years.

• 36:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  So how many athletes do you represent now, your firm?

• 36:35Speaker 02

  We represent about 40 NFL players at any given time. So we're one of the larger agencies.

• 36:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  It would appear to me that an agent is busy and important when you're making a deal, but I don't know how much maintenance that deal requires as time goes on. Can you just talk about in the life cycle of an athlete? How involved are you?

• 36:56Speaker 02

  We're involved in every aspect of our clients' lives on a daily basis. We spend probably the least amount of time actually negotiating contracts. I'm a family therapist, a relationship therapist, some type of preacher or pastor when need be.

• 37:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Financial advisor?

• 37:13Speaker 02

  Financial advisor, just day-to-day counselor. And that's what I love doing. No day is the same. I got up today and I get a call from a player who's injured, and so I have to deal with that. I get a call from a player who's moving and he needs to be guiding in the right direction. Young players, they'll call me and ask me what TV they should purchase. We're in many ways with these young people, involved with them in a very intimate and deep fashion.

• 37:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  Among agents that represent NFL players, what would you say that you're most known for?

• 37:46Speaker 02

  In the past, we were actually known as the running back agency. We've represented more running backs over the last 20 years than any other agency.

• 37:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Name some for me.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Maurice Jones Drew, Matt Forte, Tevin Coleman, Jordan Howard, James White, Sweet Feet from New England, Kendall Hunter, Le'Veon Bell, Michael Carter. We have Cody Schrader this year, who's now with the Rams.

• 38:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you still represent the same share of running backs?

• 38:14Speaker 02

  We have pared down. The market has spoken. And over the last few years, we got into the receiver, cornerback, that kind of market. We never got out of the business of representing running backs, but we did start shaping our roster a little bit.

• 38:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  I don't mean to accuse you of chasing the money yourselves. You say, you know, you're responding to the market. But in a case like this, where you guys were known as a running back agency, and then the market for running backs changes really pretty dramatically. I mean, who ends up representing the running backs? Just different agents who are starting out, who don't have as much luxury to pick their roster the way you guys do? Is that the way it works?

• 38:53Speaker 02

  That's exactly what you saw. There were agents during the last few years who just didn't represent running backs at all. And there were literally were running backs in the market looking for representation. There's a supply and demand issue. There are more running backs than positions. It is a position where you can find really good players all across the draft and after the draft. There also is this, the running quarterback. You can look at the total number of yards that a team has. Now, a lot of that yardage is coming not from the running backs, but it's coming from the quarterback. So now, probably half the league has quarterbacks who can run as well as the running back.

• 39:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  What about rule changes that facilitated an opening up of the passing game?

• 39:38Speaker 02

  The average fan sometimes doesn't fully appreciate that the NFL is a huge business. It is a business at the highest level. It's $20 billion. It'll go to 25. The ultimate goal, I'm hearing, it's going to be a $50 billion industry in the next 10 years. I think we've seen over the last 10 years, kind of a cultural shift, not just in the NFL, but across sports. As fans, we simply see the outcome of the game, and we don't really understand that at the end of the day, these are corporations that are going to be responsive to their shareholders and consumers. And the NFL is no different. People like to see the ball in the air, the acrobatic catches and the leaps. The fans want to see long

• 40:22Speaker 02

  balls. They want to see passing. I still can watch a 10 to 7 game, a defensive battle, the best player is the middle linebacker and the running back, and I'm happy with that. But for the younger generation, absolutely boring. We can talk supply and demand, we can talk the running quarterback, and those all do have some influence in the devaluation for the running back position. Ultimately, if we really dig down and look at root causes, it's really the corporation, the actual NFL, responding to their consumer base and what their consumer base wants to see.

• 40:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  When you say that the NFL responded to what the market wants, give me some specific examples of how the league has, you know, added leverage to make passing more prominent, either passing and/or quarterback play more prominent?

• 41:12Speaker 02

  You've seen a ton of rule changes, obviously, to make it a higher scoring game with more offense. The defenses have been handicapped, the pass interference rules, you can't hit the quarterback. Some of the rules are good for the safety of the players, but certainly the root of the reason it's to increase the scoring and the way you do that is through passing.

• 41:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let's talk about injuries and perishability generally. Just talk about the physical punishment that comes along with running back position, where it ranks with other offensive players.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  Make no mistake about it. The running back is the most violent position in the most violent sport on the planet. Running backs are getting hit on every play. In pass protection, they're getting hit. You've got a running back who's 5'10", 215 pounds and he's blocking a 325 pound defensive lineman. The defensive players are getting bigger and faster every year. That physicality for the running back is real. The likelihood of a running back getting through the season unscathed, no injuries is slim to none. And so a lot of teams, because of that, they go with running backs by committee.

• 42:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  What Whitney is talking about here when he says running backs by committee is when teams substitute in multiple players throughout the game or the season to share the workload. Here again is Brian Burke, the ESPN analyst.

• 42:42Speaker 06

  I think that's one of the core developments that's affected the running back position is that teams have realized that you don't necessarily need a great running back. What you need is a great running game.

• 42:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  I think when most people watch football, they see the quarterback hand the ball to the running back who, when a play succeeds, he gets through the line and then keeps running and gains a bunch of yards and finally gets tackled. And they think, oh my God, that running back is so talented. Explain what's actually happening to make that run a success.

• 43:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, there's going to be eight or nine blocks that are all essential. You need these kind of Consecutive miracles for run play to really work. Coaches will draw them up and it looks perfect on the whiteboard. But then in the chaos of the game, so many things have to go right for it to work. But when it does, it's beautiful.

• 43:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  And then the people executing those blocks, let's just talk about the offensive line. There's one running back who carries the ball, who succeeds. But then there are five or six other guys who are probably averaging, what, around 290 pounds on the offensive line?

• 43:49Speaker 06

  Oh gosh, probably more now, yeah.

• 43:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Some football fans really do pay attention to offensive linemen, but really it's mostly their moms. But there are a lot of them that are necessary for it to work. So what does that mean about the market?

• 44:02Speaker 06

  The way to think about it is the line and the blocking and the scheme are responsible for the first three or four yards of a gain on a run play. And then from there on, it's the elusiveness of the running back. It's like a threshold system where if I have a good enough line to get a running back out to three, four, five yards, now he's into the secondary and it's up to him to make defenders miss their tackles. And then you get these big explosive gains. So if you want to improve your running game, you don't go out and just get a great running back. I would say start with the offensive line, make sure you're calling good plays.

• 44:44Speaker 06

  And then the cherry on top might be a star running back.

• 44:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up after the break, do running backs have any chance of returning to their previous glory?

• 44:56Speaker 06

  Everything is cyclical, right? If you keep those bell bottoms long enough, they'll come back.

• 45:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio and we will come back right after this.

• 45:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Most of us don't respond well when something is taken away from us. Psychologists like to talk about loss aversion, the fact that we feel more pain from loss than we feel pleasure from a gain of the same size. Well, imagine being an athlete who's been working hard since age five or six, driven by the very slim hope that you might live out your dream and become an NFL running back, only to succeed and discover that your position has been downgraded. An elite running back in the NFL can still make millions of dollars, but keep in mind that A, running back careers are short, and B, many of your teammates will be making

• 46:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  more millions than you. So what are your options? You could stage a holdout. That's what both Saquon Barkley and Josh Jacobs did in 2023, sitting out training camp after being franchise-tagged by their respective teams, the New York Giants and the Las Vegas Raiders. Both of them left their teams at the end of the season, and both have prospered with their new teams, Barkley with the Eagles and Jacobs with the Green Bay Packers. But a holdout doesn't always go as planned. In 2018, Pittsburgh Steelers running back Le'Veon Bell, one of the best backs in the league at the time, held out for the entire season rather than play under a franchise tag.

• 46:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Here again is Brian Burke, the ESPN data scientist.

• 46:48Speaker 06

  By holding out, he cut his career short, maybe not by a full year, but a lot of the perishability is just age-based, not necessarily wear and tear-based. The effect can be very slight, but the next guy up, who costs a fraction of what Le'Veon wants to be paid, like, I would much rather pay $1 million for 95% of what Le'Veon Bell is than pay $15 million for 100%.

• 47:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  He got a big-money contract with the Jets, but then he wasn't very good there, then his career was kind of over. What would you have advised? Advised him when he was doing really well with the Steelers on his rookie contract.

• 47:27Speaker 06

  I would have advised him to just take what he can get like it's outside of his control. I understand what he's trying to accomplish, but he's just up against reality. He's lucky to find the Jets. If there's one foolish team out of 32 that's going to overpay you, then it only takes one.

• 47:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  And it's usually the Jets, to be honest.

• 47:47Speaker 06

  He found that one for sure.

• 47:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Bell's agent at the time was Jeffrey Whitney, who we heard from earlier. He told us he didn't want to discuss the Bell situation. Beyond a holdout, what other options are available to dissatisfied running backs? A few years ago, there was an attempt at creating a carve out, a running back specific labor designation proposed by a group called the International Brotherhood of Professional Running Backs. They petitioned the NLRB, the National Labor Relations Board, for what labor lawyers call a unit clarification. They argued that the unique physical demands of the running back position set them apart from other football players and that they should therefore be allowed to break away

• 48:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  from the NFL Players Union and negotiate on their own. A clever idea, maybe, but the NLRB rejected their request. I asked Robert Smith, the former Vikings running back, what he thought of this idea.

• 48:46Speaker 08

  Well, as you guys have talked about in countless episodes on Freakonomics, you have to be very careful about trying to change one variable in a system without impacting the system in a way that you haven't anticipated. And ultimately, the market is going to decide where they value players the most and where that money is going to make the most sense for that team.

• 49:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  So if carve outs and holdouts aren't the answer, how about a good old fashioned running back Zoom call? In 2023, Austin Eckler, now with the Washington Commanders, organized a Zoom with other top running backs, including Barkley, Jacobs, Christian McCaffrey and Nick Chubb to discuss the state of their position. "Right now, there's really nothing we can do," Chubb said afterward. "We're kind of handcuffed with the situation. We are the only position that our production hurts us. If we go out there and run 2,000 yards, the next year, they're going to say, you're probably worn down." But last year, the Eagles made it to the Super Bowl and won the Super Bowl,

• 49:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  thanks to the huge contributions of running back Saquon Barkley. So will that lead the NFL to fall back in love with the running back?

• 50:04Speaker 02

  The last couple of years, you're seeing a little bit of resurgence in the running game. Everything is cyclical, right? If you keep those bell bottoms long enough, they'll come back.

• 50:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  That again is the sports agent Jeffrey Whitney.

• 50:16Speaker 02

  You ask a running back, what's the most important duty that they have? The vast majority will be like, running the football. And it's not. It's pass protection and catching the ball and running is part of it. I think we're seeing some young running backs again, who can do it all, can catch it, can run it, good in pass protection.

• 50:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let's say you have a relative or a family friend who's 11, 12 years old, great athlete. What would you tell that kid if they're hoping for a long career in the NFL? Do you say, get the heck out of the running back position?

• 50:47Speaker 02

  I'd tell them to become a long snapper.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  I'd tell them to become a specialist, a long snapper, a kicker. You play forever, you don't get touched. That's what I would advise them to do. If you're not going to be the quarterback, be the long snapper or be the kicker.

• 51:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  We once made an episode about the economics of the long snapper position. It's called, Why Does The Most Monotonous Job In The World Pay $1 Million? Episode 493, if you want to listen. As for running backs, LeSean McCoy, the six-time Pro Bowler, was more optimistic about their future. Here he is again, talking with Roland Fryer.

• 51:30Speaker 03

  Now, it's a copycat league, right? If the Eagles are going to win a Super Bowl, they want to copycat that. You look at some of the better teams, right? They got good running back play. Like the Packers, are they even a playoff team without Josh Jacobs? I look at the Eagles, I'm gonna love the Eagles. They got a lot of talent on that team. Are we the same, though? If Saquon Barkley's not there? Like, look at the Ravens. Lamar Jackson was the MVP last year. This year, they look totally different. What's the difference? Derrick Henry. That's why you see Lamar Jackson throwing the ball better than he's ever thrown before. You play action, like, who do I guard? I feel like the market has to go up because these players are earning these things. Well, owners see that because one thing about owners, they want to make their money and they want to win.

• 52:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  There is some evidence to back up McCoy's optimism. In recent years, the running game has recovered a bit. In 2016, only 40.6% of the plays from scrimmage were run plays. That was a 20-year low. Last year, it was 43.4% run plays, and this year was up to 43.7%. When I spoke last year with former Vikings running back, Robert Smith, I asked what he thought of the uptick.

• 52:40Speaker 08

  I'd be interested to see the breakdown. Number one, is it running backs? Is it quarterbacks? You have more quarterbacks that can run the football and they're extremely difficult to stop. Whether it's Lamar Jackson, even a Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, you're going to have some guys that may distort those numbers. I mean, some of it's selection bias because the better teams are constructed in a way where they can run the football in the red zone the way they want to. And then they have the lead and so they're going to get more runs that way.

• 53:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is it possible that there might be somewhat of a return to the retro world of run first?

• 53:17Speaker 08

  I don't think so. It goes back to the point of what it takes on a running play. A lot of people would point to Saquon Barkley and Derrick Henry, and those guys are outliers. Look at what Saquon Barkley did with the Giants last year. Look what Derrick Henry did with Tennessee last year. Look what they're doing with their new teams this year with Philadelphia and the Ravens. The offensive lines are just that much better. So it almost proves the point the other way that, yeah, well, of course, you put these guys behind the great offensive lines. Saquon Barkley in particular, he set a record for number of yards before first contact this year. So when you look at the performance of running backs, there's no way that it would.

• 54:02Speaker 08

  Be significant enough where everybody would say, well, all we got to do is go get a Saquon Barkley. All we got to do is go get a Derrick Henry. Oh, and by the way, it didn't work for those guys behind those other offensive lines. So you're still going to have to spend the money to get the offensive line in place that's going to allow those guys to have Saquon Barkley like numbers or Derrick Henry like numbers.

• 54:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Brian Burke of ESPN agrees with Smith that Henry and Barkley are the exceptions that prove the rule, but his reasoning is different and it goes back to his military training.

• 54:37Speaker 06

  The concept is intransitivity. There is no like one superior tactic. It's circular. The other 31 teams are all chasing pass blockers and receivers and throwers and everything. And there's a whole bunch of run blockers and running backs left on the table. There's inefficiencies, like I'm going to go grab them and I'm going to be the best running team they've ever seen. And they're going to be unprepared for us and that's going to be pretty effective, but only one or two teams can get away with that.

• 55:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  I went back to my economist friend and co-host Roland Fryer and I asked him, if a young running back came to him for advice, what would he say?

• 55:15Speaker 05

  Learn how to throw.

• 55:17Speaker 05

  I mean, I don't know what you want me to say.

• 55:21Speaker 05

  When market demand changes, particularly in something as intricate as the NFL, then certain positions will be more or less valued and going in, people will expect that. The other option would be to say, when you do get the ball.

• 55:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Run further.

• 55:37Speaker 05

  Exactly. Be more productive.

• 55:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  And yet, the end of your Wall Street Journal piece goes like this, "The economist in me likes the results," meaning the results of your analysis, finding that running backs get paid less because they're less valuable relatively. But you write, "The kid in me hopes for a running back renaissance."

• 55:56Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 55:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  So as you know, as cool, calm and collected an economist acting as you are right now, saying, come on, the market is the market. There's part of you emotionally that's attached to my argument.

• 56:07Speaker 05

  A hundred percent. This duality has lived in me since I became an economist, but you didn't ask Juju, the kid from Daytona to advise the players. But as an economist, again, this is all being driven by market forces.

• 56:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  Market forces are real, but they're not always predictable. So who knows what we'll be talking about in the lead up to next year's Super Bowl? Thanks to Roland Fryer for inspiring and collaborating on this episode. He was right. It was a lot of fun. And big thanks to all our guests, LaShawn McCoy, Robert Smith, Robert Turbin, Jeffrey Whitney, and Brian Burke. I think they all did a great job explaining a complicated game that many of us love, but which many others are often baffled by. And thanks especially to you for listening. We will be back very soon with a new episode. Until then, take care of yourself and, if you can, someone else, too.

• 57:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. You can get the entire archive of Freakonomics Radio on any podcast app. If you'd like to read a transcript or the show notes, that's at Freakonomics.com. This episode was produced and updated by Teo Jacobs. It was mixed by Eleanor Osborne. The Freakonomics Radio Network staff also includes Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abwaji, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Alaria Montenacort, Jasmine Klinger, Jeremy Johnson, and Zach Lipinski. Our theme song is "Mr. Fortune" by The Hitchhikers, and our composer is Luis Guerra. As always, thank you for listening.

• 57:47Speaker 05

  You want to get married?

• 57:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  I can't marry anyone who I can't run faster than backwards. So that's a no.

• 57:56Speaker 05

  I don't know. I've had a series of knee injuries. You might be able to get me now.

• 57:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, but I've had a series of birthdays.

• 58:06Speaker 07

  The Freakonomics Radio Network, the hidden side of everything.