Harry v Wills | Option Five | 3

Harry and Meghan try to carve out a life away from palace rules, but the Firm has other plans. Wills is fuming, Charles is panicking, and the Sandringham Summit turns into a full-blown family showdown. The crown survives, but can the brothers? Do you have a suggestion for a scandal you would like us to cover? Or perhaps you have a question you would like to ask our hosts? Email us at [email protected] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alice Levine?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:07Matt Forde?

  This is a warning that this episode contains strong language and reference to suicidal thoughts. If you're struggling, there are organisations which can help. We've put links in the episode description. Right, before we start, I've just got to record an advert for that interview episode, if that's okay.

• 0:23Alice Levine?

  Oh, I didn't get the email for that.

• 0:25Matt Forde?

  Don't worry about it, it'll all become clear. In this touching and emotional interview, I will reveal all about the bullying I faced at the hands of Alice Levine.

• 0:34Alice Levine?

  Sorry, is this for like the little joke we do at the beginning or?

• 0:37Matt Forde?

  How she undermined me and leaked personal stories about me to the press.

• 0:42Alice Levine?

  What personal stories?

• 0:43Matt Forde?

  To protect the security of my family, I've been forced to take two weeks' leave.

• 0:48Alice Levine?

  Matt, you're going on holiday.

• 0:49Matt Forde?

  I'll also reveal the shocking truth about the time she smashed me over the head with a dog bowl.

• 0:53Alice Levine?

  Don't want to sound like a narcissist, but actually sounds like a great listen.

• 0:58Matt Forde?

  Sixteenth of February, twenty twenty-one, Montecito, California. Harry leans against a weathered pillar, towering eucalyptus trees swaying gently behind him. He cranes his neck past the rolling cameras to get a clear view of Meghan as she sits in a cushioned cream chair, hand resting on her rounded belly. The sad irony of the last four years is that I advocated for so long for women to use their voice, and then I was silent. Harry moves his gaze to the opposite chair, where Oprah Winfrey leans forward.

• 1:34Matt Forde?

  Were you silent or silenced? Harry's heart thuds as he waits for Meg to answer. The latter. He feels a swell of pride that Meg, radiant at seven months pregnant, is still smiling despite all they've endured. The sound tech steps forward with Harry's mic pack, and he realises, millions of people will watch this, tens of millions. He feels a rush of nerves at what will happen when his family see this interview.

• 2:05Matt Forde?

  Harry's stomach drops as the bee flashes on the caller ID, Granny's private secretary, Sir Edward Young.

• 2:13Alice Levine?

  The Bee, B E E, that's the nickname.

• 2:16Matt Forde?

  Yes, there's the bee, the wasp and the fly. And in his book, he explains why he's nicknamed them these things.

• 2:22Alice Levine?

  I guess they do buzz around and sort of scare people off.

• 2:26Matt Forde?

  Yeah, two of them pollinate and the other one spreads diseases.

• 2:30Alice Levine?

  And lands on poo.

• 2:35Matt Forde?

  His voice is tinged with contempt. For a moment, Harry fears he's got wind of his Oprah appearance. But then.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  The Duke of Edinburgh has been admitted to hospital.

• 2:45Matt Forde?

  Grandpa, is it serious? Harry tightens his grip on the phone.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  It's an infection. He's comfortable and responding to treatment. But given his age, your grandmother thought you should be told.

• 2:58Matt Forde?

  Thank you. I, uh.

• 3:01Matt Forde?

  The line goes dead. Harry's mind races. Grandpa is 99. He glances at the technician. Sorry, I, I just need a moment. He starts to tremble, doubt overwhelming him. This interview is the last thing Granny needs right now. And Willie. He will be apoplectic.

• 3:23Matt Forde?

  But then his gaze returns to Meghan.

• 3:26Matt Forde?

  I just didn't want to be alive anymore. I went to the institution and said I needed to get help and I was told that I couldn't. Oprah shifts forward in her seat. It sounds like you were suicidal. Yes.

• 3:42Matt Forde?

  Her voice is steady, her eyes determined. If Grandpa taught Harry anything, it was about duty to those you love. Meg is stepping up. Harry must be brave too.

• 3:56Matt Forde?

  Settling down next to his wife. He focuses on Oprah's soothing voice as she turns to him. Why did your father stop taking your calls? He pushes thoughts of Grandpa aside. Because I took matters into my own hands. But I had to do something for my own mental health, for my wife's. Because I could see where this was headed.

• 4:20Matt Forde?

  And now he's started, he doesn't want to stop. It particularly hurts because I think my mother would be very angry about how all this has panned out. Harry feels his back straighten. For so long, he's wanted to be heard. And by doing this, his father, his brother, the whole family will be forced to listen. Maybe even change. It's time the world knew the truth about the British monarchy's authoritarianism, its cruelty, its racism. And he's going to be the one to dish the dirt.

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• 6:02Matt Forde?

  From Audible Originals, I'm Matt Ford.

• 6:05Alice Levine?

  And I'm Alice Levine.

• 6:06Matt Forde?

  And this is British Scandal.

• 6:20Matt Forde?

  So Alice, in the last episode, a heck of a lot happened and a key character was introduced. What do you make of Meghan Markle?

• 6:28Alice Levine?

  That is not a completely straightforward question because of her treatment in the press and by the public to a certain extent. The press particularly can be misogynistic, racist, classist, and she was a real victim of that at various points in their tenure. But she's also a particular flavour and she's not like Kate, who's the partner that came before. She committed the cardinal sin, which was to be outspoken. She wasn't a silent follower of protocols. And so that was incredibly disruptive within this family from the get go. And of course, there's the thing that I just personally can't get over, and I know a lot of people listening will have found really difficult. She doesn't like hobnobs. And for me, that's unforgivable.

• 7:11Matt Forde?

  That is a red line. And obviously, it's not easy for anyone to be a royal plus one, because the scrutiny on all of your behaviour and your private life is unlike anything else, even in the celebrity world. The royal family itself as an institution is deeply dysfunctional and the individuals, some of them are absolutely crazy. Your life is no longer your own, but you also do get everything you could ever want.

• 7:34Alice Levine?

  Which is why I think this story divides people, because people think of the privilege, but then on the other hand, it's so suffocating, you're so trapped, it's so claustrophobic. And it's also the princess-prince fairy tale that lots of people have been brought up on. So it's a whole mix of mess. Then you've got these brothers who are beloved, and it's kind of the Yoko Ono narrative, that she's come between these two men. And a story that I think lots of people felt emotional about, which is the dilemma. Who do you pick? The love of your life, or the brother who's been your support for all of your childhood and adulthood? So it's something that really strikes a chord with people.

• 8:14Matt Forde?

  And at the end of the last episode, tensions reached boiling point when Harry was faced with the decision. Pick his family or pick the future of the British monarchy? This is episode three, option five.

• 8:30Matt Forde?

  One year earlier. Fourth of January 2020. Vancouver Island. Harry's fingers hover over the laptop, the cursor blinking. He looks over his shoulder, where Meghan cradles their eight-month-old son Archie.

• 8:46Matt Forde?

  The firm will hate it, especially William. He turns back and reads aloud the last section of the email. "I'm sure you'll agree this situation cannot continue. Therefore, we would like to propose that we remain in Canada and reduce our duties as working royals."

• 9:04Matt Forde?

  His hand trembles. Screw 'em. He hits the send button. He's distracted by the sound of Archie's soft gurgle.

• 9:15Matt Forde?

  He takes him out onto the expansive lawn that rolls down to the water's edge. The baby squeals with delight as Harry lifts him into the air. Four hours pass, five. Then a familiar name flashes up on Harry's mobile. Granny. His heart hammers against his ribs. He didn't expect to hear from her directly.

• 9:36Alice Levine?

  Does she have a mobile phone? New phone, who dis?

• 9:41Matt Forde?

  Granny, hi.

• 9:42Speaker 05

  Harry, I received your... Communication.

• 9:47Matt Forde?

  He starts to mutter a reply, but his gran cuts in.

• 9:50Speaker 05

  I'm very troubled to hear how unhappy you've been. We should all discuss it. But not on the phone. It must be face-to-face, as soon as possible.

• 10:01Matt Forde?

  Harry smiles, gives a thumbs up to Meg, who is hovering nearby. Of course, we'll be on the first flight.

• 10:11Matt Forde?

  The following morning, Harry strides across Heathrow's concourse. He takes out his phone, almost jumping when the signal comes to life and Granny's name flashes up. Granny, we just landed.

• 10:25Alice Levine?

  I'm in short stay, be quick because they'll charge me a fiver if I'm any longer.

• 10:29Matt Forde?

  Do you want anything from upper crust?

• 10:32Matt Forde?

  This time, he's greeted by the terse voice of the bee.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Her Majesty regrets her diary is more full than she realised, so she's asked me to reschedule your meeting.

• 10:43Matt Forde?

  Harry's stomach flips. Okay, well, we're here for six days, so maybe...

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Her diary is completely full until the 29th.

• 10:52Matt Forde?

  Harry's stunned. That's three weeks away. It's too long. Archie's back in Canada.

• 10:58Speaker 02

  Her Majesty won't be bullied into making decisions by family or the press. Please consult your diary and get back to us promptly.

• 11:06Matt Forde?

  The phone clicks off. Harry hears Meg's phone ping behind him. The PR company wants to know if we've seen today's Sam. Harry pulls the paper's front page up on his phone and feels the blood drain from his face as he reads the headline. "We're off again." The story claims he and Meghan are about to ambush the Queen with unfair demands. His head spins. How do they know they're even coming? He only sent that email to Granny, Pa, and Willie. Harry feels a sickening chill. He stares at Meg in disbelief. He wouldn't, would he? But Harry already suspects Willie could.

• 11:50Matt Forde?

  He darkens. He's tried to approach this reasonably, but all Willie's interested in is taking control of the narrative. So if he won't play nice, Harry won't either. He's going to fight fire with fire.

• 12:10Matt Forde?

  The following day, 1A Kensington Palace.

• 12:15Matt Forde?

  William slams the desk as he reads a post from @SussexRoyal on his Instagram feed. "After many months of reflection, we intend to step back as senior members of the royal family and work to become financially independent while continuing to fully support the Queen."

• 12:32Alice Levine?

  It is a bit of a word salad. We're going to work to become financially independent, continue to fully support the Queen. I don't really know what that means.

• 12:41Matt Forde?

  We aspire to become financially independent.

• 12:44Alice Levine?

  We believe in the concept of financial independence.

• 12:47Matt Forde?

  But we can't do it right now. We really do need that state cash, so just bear with us.

• 12:52Alice Levine?

  Our private millions simply aren't enough, so when we're ready, we'll let you know. But please don't check in about it. We'll let you know.

• 12:59Matt Forde?

  He didn't think it was possible to be angrier at Harold. This is a family matter, a private matter, not dirty laundry to be aired in public before they've even discussed it.

• 13:11Matt Forde?

  Kate enters the study, pulling on her mittens. I'm taking the kids to play pustics if you fancy. He sees her pause as she takes in his expression. You need to see this.

• 13:24Matt Forde?

  William watches her face darken as she reads. God, we look forward to sharing the full details of this new chapter in due course, including our plans to collaborate with Her Majesty the Queen. William almost spits. You don't collaborate with a monarch, you do what they decree.

• 13:45Matt Forde?

  It's the lead story on every news outlet. William checks Twitter, where the post is already trending. Good on you, M&H. The revolution starts here. The Great Escape is on. Let's bust this outdated institution. William slams his phone on the desk, only for it to buzz, Pa flashing on the screen. He answers, expecting his father to be seething as well, but to his horror.

• 14:10Speaker 06

  I've spoken to Harry and we've agreed the sooner we sort this whole blasted business out, the better.

• 14:16Matt Forde?

  William freezes. He can't believe Pa is even negotiating with Harold.

• 14:21Speaker 06

  He suggested we meet at Frogmore Cottage tomorrow before Meghan has to fly back for Archie.

• 14:28Matt Forde?

  William feels his fists clench. He wants us to bow to their demands? He waits for Kate to grimace at the idea. Instead, she sighs deeply. Perhaps an olive branch. I mean, anything to stop this. William crosses to the large window. He takes in his children skipping across the lawn, just as he and Harry did with Mummy. For a brief moment, he softens. But suddenly, the sound of messages coming through on his phone yanks him back to the crisis at hand.

• 15:02Speaker 06

  William?

• 15:03Speaker 07

  You're right, Pa. We should all talk. But not at Frogmore. Granny's still at Sandringham. Let's do it there.

• 15:11Speaker 06

  Tomorrow, then.

• 15:12Matt Forde?

  William hesitates.

• 15:14Speaker 07

  There are engagements. I simply can't move.

• 15:17Matt Forde?

  He turns away.

• 15:19Speaker 07

  Harry will have to wait. Until next week.

• 15:23Matt Forde?

  William knows his father will object, but he won't talk to Harry with Meghan in the room. Because he's sure that once Harold's alone with Pa, Granny and him, he can reason with him and stop him destroying everything he and the firm hold dear.

• 15:46Matt Forde?

  One week later, 7am, Sandringham Estate.

• 15:51Matt Forde?

  Queen Elizabeth steps carefully along the frost-covered path to the Ornamental Lake. Four corgis trot ahead of her, their breath forming small clouds in the crisp winter air.

• 16:03Matt Forde?

  I often wonder with the corgis, do they know that they're posh dogs?

• 16:06Alice Levine?

  Yeah, do you think that they go round for dog dates and they're like, "You live here"?

• 16:10Matt Forde?

  What, this is your actual home?

• 16:11Alice Levine?

  This is the whole garden.

• 16:14Alice Levine?

  Where's your Ornamental Lake?

• 16:18Matt Forde?

  A little way behind, a footman follows with a discreet pooper-scooper. Elizabeth turns at the sound of approaching footsteps. She takes in Charles walking towards her, his face drawn with anxiety.

• 16:32Matt Forde?

  Ready for the Sandringham Summit? Elizabeth wincers at what the press has dubbed today's meeting. She stares up at an ancient oak, its bare branches etched against the pale Norfolk sky. Tell me, how reasonable do you think Harry will be? I know he feels he hasn't been heard. Elizabeth nods. The temptation is to side with William. As heir, he's always come first. But she knows that Charles wants to give both her grandsons a fair hearing today, and she's determined to do just that.

• 17:11Matt Forde?

  Back at the house, she's barely removed her coat when her private secretary approaches, ashen-faced.

• 17:17Speaker 07

  Mum, there's been a development.

• 17:20Matt Forde?

  He hands her a tablet showing the front page of the Sunday Times. Her jaw sets as she reads the headline. William bullying claims rock palace.

• 17:30Speaker 07

  It quotes a source close to...

• 17:33Matt Forde?

  She sees him avert his eyes as he continues.

• 17:36Speaker 07

  The Sussexes, saying there's been a pattern of aggressive behaviour, that this meeting is a disciplinary hearing.

• 17:42Matt Forde?

  Elizabeth's lips tighten as she snatches the article. Thank you, Edward. I'd like some time alone.

• 17:50Speaker 07

  Of course, Mum.

• 17:51Matt Forde?

  Elizabeth enters her study and walks over to the desk. She eyes the printout of today's agenda. Five different options they've drawn up for Harry going forward. Five ways this could work. All to be discussed calmly and diplomatically. But with this latest move, it's clear Harry isn't interested in diplomacy. She hardens as she takes in the guilt-framed picture of her beloved father on the wall. And she thinks of all he endured in the wake of Edward and Wallace, how the monarchy barely survived.

• 18:22Matt Forde?

  She picks up the phone and calls her private secretary.

• 18:26Matt Forde?

  I've made a decision. I need you to draft something new. Elizabeth hesitates. With what she's about to do, she'll be favouring one grandchild over another. But she can't let Harry and his American wife bring a thousand-year dynasty to its knees. She's already weathered one constitutional crisis over Diana. She can't guarantee the Crown would survive another. Better to break a few hearts than the monarchy itself.

• 19:01Matt Forde?

  Two hours later, the Long Library, Sandringham Estate. Harry twists his wedding ring anxiously as he stands outside the imposing oak door.

• 19:12Matt Forde?

  Without Meghan by his side, he feels like he's walking into battle with no armour. But he reminds himself, there's no room for compromise. All he wants is for them to be able to live abroad. They would still represent the royal family, they would just be able to make their own money. Have some freedom from the incessant pressure of the tabloid press.

• 19:33Alice Levine?

  So I'm a bit confused. What does he want and where's it coming from?

• 19:36Matt Forde?

  He wants a half in, half out deal where he would remain a public face of the royal family, but he also wants to be able to do things that other royals can't do. He wants to be able to live abroad and he also wants to be able to make his own money. He's saying he would end reliance on public funds, so stop taking effectively a royal wage. But we also know that he wanted his security to be paid for by the royals, i.e. therefore paid for by the state.

• 20:04Alice Levine?

  And there's another layer to this, isn't there, about the transparency of royal money? Because one thing is the income that they get from the state and another thing is their, inverted commas, private wealth.

• 20:14Matt Forde?

  All of their wealth is derived from the property empire that they enjoy as a result of being the monarchy. So it's really hard to decouple what is private and what is public.

• 20:27Alice Levine?

  So at this point, Harry's getting an allowance, if you like, from Prince Charles's private money.

• 20:34Matt Forde?

  Yes, a certain number of them are what's called working royals. So they perform duties on behalf of the state and they are remunerated for that.

• 20:40Alice Levine?

  So are there estimates for what then Prince Charles, now King Charles, is worth outside of the budget provided by the state to keep the royal family going?

• 20:50Matt Forde?

  According to a Guardian investigation in 2023, they estimated King Charles's fortune was around £2 billion.

• 20:57Alice Levine?

  £2 billion?

• 20:59Matt Forde?

  And that includes cars, rare stamps, property, investments, horses, jewellery, art and the hereditary estate.

• 21:07Alice Levine?

  So if Harry's getting a substantial allowance from that, you imagine he could exist on that without a royal salary?

• 21:13Matt Forde?

  Yes.

• 21:14Alice Levine?

  It seems that way.

• 21:17Matt Forde?

  Harry takes a deep breath and pushes the door open. To his relief, he's met by a smiling pa who pulls him into a warm embrace. Darling boy.

• 21:29Matt Forde?

  He looks up as Granny enters with the bee. She gives Harry a small nod before walking to the end of the long table. And then turns to see William enter, his face thunderous.

• 21:42Matt Forde?

  Harry's stomach drops as his brother sits without making eye contact. Then pointedly places a copy of the Sunday Times on the table. Harry sighs. I had nothing to do with that. But before he can get into it. The bee clears his throat.

• 22:00Matt Forde?

  Let's get down to business, shall we? Harry has barely sat before he's handed a formal agenda, listing five options. But what's this? His eyes skim each bullet. From option one, where he and Meg remain full-time royals. To option five, which the bee spells out with a brutal lack of sentimentality.

• 22:23Speaker 07

  Complete withdrawal from royal duties and no financial or security support from the Crown. You would give up your honorary military titles. You would repay the 2.4 million pounds of public funds used to refurbish Frogmore House. While you would retain your HRH styles, you would not be permitted to use them.

• 22:42Alice Levine?

  Then what's the point?

• 22:43Matt Forde?

  Am I allowed to tell people that I've got them?

• 22:44Alice Levine?

  Can I whisper it at night as I fall asleep?

• 22:47Matt Forde?

  His head spins. He never even contemplated something so dramatic. He tries to regain his composure. If you'll just give me a moment. He desperately scans the document again. His eyes settling on option three. The closest to the future he'd intended to argue for. In option three, he and Meg would still represent the Queen and retain their security detail while supporting themselves financially. So the third option makes no sense. We remain working royals but still live abroad and...

• 23:21Speaker 07

  That's not what's laid out in the proposal. We fail to see how you could carry out your royal duties, living overseas.

• 23:27Matt Forde?

  Harry eyes Granny, who looks frustratingly impassive. Well, it would need some working out, of course, but... Harry ventures as Willie thumps the table.

• 23:38Speaker 07

  Half in, half out is not how you work for the monarchy.

• 23:42Matt Forde?

  Harry feels his face flush. Why? Because you say so? Harry turns back to Granny, determined. We don't want to turn our backs on the Crown, on you. For the first time, Harry notes a flicker of discomfort in her eyes. Harry, this is very difficult. Before Harry can formulate a response, the bee hands round another document headed 'For Immediate Release'. As he begins to read, his blood runs cold. The Duke and Duchess of Sussex will no longer be working members of the royal family. They will not receive public funds for royal duties, and will no longer use their HRH titles.

• 24:23Alice Levine?

  Okay, so to be clear, they are now essentially citizens. They can call themselves the Duke and the Duchess, they can't use the HRH, and that's the last relic of their involvement with the royal family?

• 24:36Matt Forde?

  It's over. They're as common as muck.

• 24:38Alice Levine?

  Wow, but with millions of pounds.

• 24:42Matt Forde?

  Harry looks from the bee to Granny, then Pa, confused. This is option five. We would lose everything. We would lose our security detail. What about our children? Harry stares around the table. He is met only with the tops of their heads, as his brother, his father and his granny focus only on the backs of their hands. He looks back at the press release, the terrible truth sinking in. You've already decided? He slowly moves his gaze to Willie, who looks ashen-faced. Harry can't work out whether it's through shock or shame. His voice breaks as he speaks again. What was today even for? A show trial? To make the press think you've tried?

• 25:26Matt Forde?

  He suddenly feels like he did when Mummy died. Broken, confused, lost. He gets up, gasping for air, his mind racing. The next thing he knows, he's running down the corridor. Harold, wait, please! Willie calling after him. But he never wants to speak to his brother, or any of his family, ever again.

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• 26:56Speaker 10

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• 28:05Matt Forde?

  One minute later, Sandringham Estate. William races into the grounds after Harry.

• 28:12Speaker 07

  Harold, wait!

• 28:14Matt Forde?

  He swallows as Harry turns to face him, his cheeks ruddy and tear stained. For a moment, all William sees is that same lost twelve-year-old at mummy's funeral, and his heart aches.

• 28:27Speaker 07

  I swear I didn't know.

• 28:29Matt Forde?

  He grabs his brother by the shoulders, tries to make him meet his gaze.

• 28:33Speaker 07

  What they've done, it isn't right.

• 28:35Matt Forde?

  Harry pulls free and carries on running. William gives chase, panting as he tries to keep up. He's relieved when Harry finally stops for breath.

• 28:45Speaker 07

  Talk to me, get off me!

• 28:48Matt Forde?

  But William grabs him again, stays on him.

• 28:50Speaker 07

  I want to understand.

• 28:52Matt Forde?

  He sees Harry collapse on a bench, head in hands.

• 28:56Speaker 07

  I'm scared all the time, for Archie, for Meg. Even before the wedding, the police talked about how we were the prize target for extremists. We get death threats almost daily.

• 29:06Matt Forde?

  William feels a stub of guilt, as he imagines Kate and his kids receiving death threats.

• 29:11Speaker 07

  I can't protect them if we stay. I don't want to see any of you hurt, you do know that. I'm not saying it's you personally, but there are people who work for you, who work for Pa, that are feeding the press.

• 29:24Matt Forde?

  William takes a few steps forward as he tries to gather his thoughts. He finds himself face to face with the seventeenth-century bronze statue of a Chinese Buddha at the end of the garden. He feels his breathing calm, as he remembers how much their mother loved this spot. He turns to find Harry staring at it beside him.

• 29:42Speaker 07

  You could be right, about the leaks.

• 29:45Matt Forde?

  He wants to help his brother, but he knows how Granny operates. That press release wouldn't have been drafted without her approval. He has to get Harold to accept option one, to return to full royal duties.

• 30:01Alice Levine?

  We haven't even seen two and four. Maybe there's a wild card in there. If we want a lifestyle show, what is the option?

• 30:08Matt Forde?

  Granny, there's this thing called Netflix. It's great.

• 30:12Alice Levine?

  If we want to advertise little bags of pretzels, I'm not entirely clear which is the most compatible option.

• 30:19Matt Forde?

  William grabs Harry by the shoulders.

• 30:22Speaker 07

  Remember what we used to say, us against the fucking world. It could be like that again.

• 30:28Matt Forde?

  He sees a flicker of a smile on Harry's lips. He seizes on it.

• 30:32Speaker 07

  Meg, too. No more palace walls or separate agendas. A fresh start. We protect each other, all of us.

• 30:40Matt Forde?

  William eyeballs Harry, meaning it. He can't lose his brother over this. He reaches out his hand, willing Harry to grasp it. He has to bring him back into the fold if it's the last thing he does.

• 30:59Matt Forde?

  A moment later, Sandringham Estate. Harry looks at Willie, at his outstretched hand. The words that had once been their battle cry, their bond, echoing in his head. Us against the fucking world! He moves his eyes across the vast lawn to the woods where they built dens, the lake where they skip stones with mummy. Every corner of this place holds a memory. He sees the hope in Willie's eyes. Then the slightest smile as Willie nods towards the playground, its rope swing swaying in the cold breeze.

• 31:35Speaker 07

  Race you?

• 31:36Matt Forde?

  Harry locks eyes with him for a moment, struck by the ridiculousness. But then Wills takes off and Harry instinctively runs after him, lungs burning in his desperation to be first. He feels a rush of joy as he grabs the largest rope in victory, pushing himself off from the ground and swinging past William who flails beside him.

• 31:55Speaker 07

  You can tell I'm more walkabouts than workouts these days.

• 31:59Matt Forde?

  Harry laughs as he watches him struggle. He reaches down into his pocket for his phone. Megan has sent a video message. He jumps from the rope and presses play, watches Archie giggle as Meg dips his feet into their infinity pool.

• 32:15Matt Forde?

  His chest tightens. He stares back at the cold Jacobean façade of Sandringham House, with all its formality, structures and constraints. How can he force that on his family again? He looks back at William, who's brushing dirt from his chinos.

• 32:31Speaker 07

  I can't, Willie.

• 32:33Matt Forde?

  Come on, Harold.

• 32:34Speaker 07

  We've barely... I can't come back, Willie. Pat's trailing us everywhere we go, not knowing who we can trust. I have nightmares about losing Meg the way we lost Mummy.

• 32:45Matt Forde?

  He watches Willie stare into the distance for what seems like a lifetime.

• 32:48Speaker 07

  I don't want Archie to have the same childhood we did.

• 32:52Matt Forde?

  When he finally turns to face him, Harry notes Willie's eyes are glistening. Okay. All of Harry's tension leaves, as Willie puts an arm around his shoulder. I'll make sure you get a better deal. We'll keep talking. Tears prick Harry's eyes as he stands, ready to face his future, with Willie's full support.

• 33:16Matt Forde?

  One year later, Montecito, California.

• 33:22Matt Forde?

  Meghan walks through the perfectly manicured garden, the sun warming her rounded belly. She stops at the marble patio table on the veranda, places a small jug of vinaigrette dressing beside the Cobb salad her guests are spooning onto their plates. Try this. I've been tweaking the recipe for weeks. Tyler Perry drizzles some onto his plate, and dips a forkful of avocado into it.

• 33:47Matt Forde?

  Damn, that's good. Oprah Winfrey does the same, then dabs her mouth with a linen napkin. It's divine, honey. You should bottle it.

• 33:57Alice Levine?

  It's olive oil, lemon juice maybe, some vinegar and potentially some mustard, salt and pepper.

• 34:02Matt Forde?

  Unless you're not getting it. This is made with love, by Meghan.

• 34:06Alice Levine?

  Apologies.

• 34:08Matt Forde?

  Meghan Beans. She and Harry have been in Montecito for six months. And having recently signed a multimillion-dollar deal to produce a range of shows for Netflix, she's hopeful of reinventing herself.

• 34:19Alice Levine?

  As a vinaigrette mogul.

• 34:21Matt Forde?

  Then maybe she can put the Duchess Difficult label that still dominates all her press to bed for good. That's great. I'm playing around with concepts for a lifestyle show. Home cooking, wellness, sustainable living. The world needs to see the real you. Meghan watches Oprah set down her fork. Her expression's serious. Speaking of which, if you ever decided you wanted to share your story of what really happened, that's something the whole world would be interested in. Meghan's eyes briefly fall on the window of the poolhouse, where Harry is currently in a therapy session. The truth is, he's finding it hard to adjust to life here. Much as she'd love to set the record straight,

• 35:05Matt Forde?

  she must prioritise what's best for him. Haz is still trying to work things out with his family and somehow I don't think they'd be impressed.

• 35:14Matt Forde?

  Oprah holds her hands up. Well, the offer's always there. Your truth, your way. Meghan's relieved when Tyler moves the subject on to his new movie. But Oprah's words still hang in the air an hour later when Harry walks into the kitchen, his session over. How was Dr Chan? Yeah, good. Harry smiles bravely. But she knows how taxing therapy can be. And she notes his darkening expression as he switches on his phone and opens a new message. What's wrong?

• 35:48Matt Forde?

  The palace is pushing back the final announcement about our status again. Her heart breaks as he looks up at her clearly devastated. The Queen is still deciding whether they can officially use HRH. If Harry can keep his medals, how they can earn their own money. And the lack of facts has left a vacuum, one the firm seems in no rush to fill. Meghan slumps onto the sofa. Have you heard from William? He keeps saying he's working on it, but... I don't know. She sighs. Her gut tells her William is purposefully dragging his heels, working against rather than for them.

• 36:25Matt Forde?

  And the man who gave up everything for her deserves better than to be strung along like this. She thinks again about that offer from Oprah.

• 36:34Matt Forde?

  "Has... What if we stopped waiting?" Meghan takes both his hands in hers. She knows what she's about to propose won't be easy for him. But the more she thinks about it, the more she's certain this could be exactly what they need. A way to stick two fingers up at the institution that's caused them so much pain. And truly free themselves at last. Their truth, their way.

• 37:06Matt Forde?

  One month later. Apartment 1A, Kensington Palace. William sits rigid beside Kate on the sofa. TV remote clasped in his hand. On the screen, Meghan leans in towards Oprah. Her voice light, but firm. Around this time, we have concerns and conversations about how dark Archie's skin might be when he's born. William feels his stomach lurch as Oprah's jaw literally drops. What? So, hang on. What were the concerns? That if he were too brown, it would be a problem? A chill runs down William's spine. Jesus fucking Christ. Who had these conversations? I'm never gonna share that. It would be very damaging to them.

• 37:52Matt Forde?

  William glances at Kate, who looks stunned. Then back at the screen, as Meghan spills more revelations. The palace ignoring her pleas for help when she felt suicidal. Yet another rehashing of that infernal bridesmaid's dress argument. This is all bullshit.

• 38:09Alice Levine?

  What I will say, though, is it's all so mad to assume that bad behaviour that goes on is somehow in this sort of lead case that is the royal family and it won't seep out. These are just human beings at the end of the day, and if people are bullied or treated badly, all you have is a kind of gentleman's agreement that you'll keep that in the family. They're all using these tactics where they use the press to get the public on side. So yes, this is huge. This is kind of box office. But members of the royal family and their teams have been using British media. In that process, for years and years, you might just say that Harry and Meghan are being the most savvy about it.

• 38:49Matt Forde?

  Yeah, it's that illusion of honour, isn't it? Their view is, look, when we leak stuff to the tabloids, we don't actually do the interviews ourselves. Like, get wise.

• 38:56Alice Levine?

  Exactly. Come on, guys, there's a code of conduct.

• 39:01Matt Forde?

  When his brother comes into shots and sits down next to Meghan, William's struck by how unchanged he seems. Same beard, same relaxed manner. But the moment he starts speaking, he's like a different person, parroting all of Meghan's nonsense.

• 39:16Speaker 07

  My father literally cut me off financially.

• 39:19Matt Forde?

  William grits his teeth. What about your brother? William's heart thuds as he waits for Harry to answer.

• 39:26Speaker 07

  I love William to bits. We've been through hell together, but we're on different paths. The relationship is space at the moment.

• 39:34Matt Forde?

  Space? The word feels like a knife to the heart. After everything they've shared, after all he's tried to do, that's all their relationship boils down to. Fucking space!

• 39:49Alice Levine?

  I don't even understand what that means. Outer space? We're giving each other space? What it does sound like is a kind of therapized, maybe new age Californian expression.

• 40:00Matt Forde?

  I just want to sit with that because my relationship is space and that's my truth right now.

• 40:09Matt Forde?

  William hurls the remote at the TV. It hits Harry's face, then clatters to the floor. Kate flinches.

• 40:17Speaker 07

  Wills, please. I've spent months working on Pa and Granny, trying to help him as bloody usual. But this is how he repays me, by stabbing me in the back.

• 40:27Matt Forde?

  Kate gets up, walks to the TV and turns it off.

• 40:31Speaker 07

  I'm going to put dinner on for George and Charlotte.

• 40:33Matt Forde?

  William ignores her, stays rooted to the sofa, staring intently at the black screen. The next morning, William is exhausted. He hasn't slept, and now he's on the way to a fucking school in Stratford to cut some stupid ribbon. Stepping out of his car, he readies himself for the inevitable questions from the press pack.

• 40:54Speaker 07

  William, how do you feel about the Sussexes' claims? Is the royal family racist?

• 40:59Alice Levine?

  Good? No.

• 41:01Matt Forde?

  Sort of. Depends.

• 41:03Alice Levine?

  Bad-ish. Thank you.

• 41:08Matt Forde?

  William feels his heart race. He knows the Queen has already put out a statement saying the royal family are concerned about Meghan's allegations. But in that moment, the question is so appalling, so unfair. For the first time, he can't simply handle this with the stoic silence he's practiced since childhood. Harry's had his say. He'll be damned if he won't have his. We are very much naught a racist family. The press pack explodes with more questions. William, William, have you spoken to your brother since the interview went out? Not yet, but I will. But as he says the words, Will knows he won't call him.

• 41:50Matt Forde?

  Because that man, who went on international TV and humiliated him and his family, is not the Harold he once knew. As far as William is concerned, that boy is dead. He no longer has a brother.

• 42:13Speaker 11

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• 42:54Speaker 11

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• 43:12Speaker 12

  For decades, two legendary brands fought for the hearts of American bikers: Indian Motorcycle and Harley-Davidson. The battle looked a lot like Coke versus Pepsi or Ford versus Chevy. But tastes changed and Indian didn't adapt fast enough. The icon all but died. Then came the con men, the dreamers, a string of spectacular failures that kept Indian in the grave, until one company finally got it right. This is the story of an improbable revival and the reignition of an old rivalry. Hey, I'm David Brown, the host of the podcast Business Wars. And every season, we bring you the true stories behind the companies that shape our world. Indian's new owners are going all in, but an existential crisis looms. Can Indian and Harley recruit enough younger riders to survive?

• 43:55Speaker 12

  Make sure to follow Business Wars wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Business Wars early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 44:14Matt Forde?

  One month later, the quadrangle wins a castle. Harry stands at the iron gates of the courtyard, taking in the somber faces of mourners arriving for grandpa's funeral. Seeing Willie walk in with Kate, he takes a deep breath and makes his way over. Willie, I, uh... They haven't spoken since the Oprah interview went out, but he hoped today would be the start of them putting past grievances aside. He rests a hand on Willie's arm. How are you?

• 44:50Matt Forde?

  He feels an icy jolt as his brother turns to face him, his eyes full of contempt. Before Harry can gather himself, Willie looks over his shoulder. Grandpa's here.

• 45:03Matt Forde?

  Harry turns to see eight pallbearers in military dress lift a coffin from the back of a dark green Land Rover. Watching Willie head over, Harry follows. But as he goes to stand next to him for the procession, their cousin Peter gently pulls him aside.

• 45:20Matt Forde?

  Will's requested I walk between you.

• 45:24Alice Levine?

  It's so petty.

• 45:26Matt Forde?

  Also at a funeral. I mean, just in terms of the optics, wouldn't it be better for William to be seen next to Harry and to be appear to be rising above it?

• 45:35Alice Levine?

  You would think.

• 45:38Matt Forde?

  Harry feels like he's been punched in the gut. He looks back at Willie, whose gaze is fixed straight ahead. All Harry can do is start walking. And as he does, he thinks about Mummy. How at her funeral, he had Willie to walk beside him. How they were united in grief. How she would hate this. No matter what it takes, no matter how much Willie despises him right now, he must make peace.

• 46:06Alice Levine?

  That's actually really heartbreaking.

• 46:07Matt Forde?

  I mean, this is one of the mad things about their family is, your big moments of grief are so public. Like, it's bad enough mourning the loss of a close family member without having to do it on camera.

• 46:17Alice Levine?

  And the other madness is, lots of these instances of family discord have happened in the past. They've happened before, so you would think, coming into the modern world, that this family would actually have made changes or would have learnt things so that these weren't such painful experiences. But actually, they feel so frozen in time, don't they?

• 46:44Matt Forde?

  Two hours later, Harry is anxiously pacing through the yew trees and modest headstones of the nearby royal burial ground. He looks over, sees the gravestones of his ancestors. He checks his watch. Willie is 20 minutes late.

• 47:03Matt Forde?

  Harry's overwhelmed with relief when he finally sees his brother's outline through the trees. As they begin walking in silence, the familiarity feels like a warm blanket. But when Willie speaks, Harry's heart sinks at his emotionless, businesslike tone.

• 47:22Speaker 07

  Well, what did you want to say?

• 47:25Matt Forde?

  Harry hesitates a beat, unsure where to begin.

• 47:29Speaker 07

  I suppose I just wanted to clear the air, explain how I feel.

• 47:35Matt Forde?

  Harry sees Willie sneer.

• 47:37Speaker 07

  You already did, to millions of people.

• 47:40Matt Forde?

  Harry stops walking, takes a breath.

• 47:43Speaker 07

  You left me with no choice. Meg and I have... If things were so bad, you could have come to me, but you didn't.

• 47:50Matt Forde?

  Now Harry feels his own anger reignite.

• 47:53Speaker 07

  I did, at Sandringham. You were supposed to fight for me, but you never lifted a finger. That's not true. These things take time. You had a year, and then we were stripped of everything.

• 48:07Matt Forde?

  Harry sees Willie's cheeks flush crimson.

• 48:10Speaker 07

  That was Granny. Take it up with Granny.

• 48:13Matt Forde?

  Harry kicks the dirt beneath him, clenches his fists in frustration. It's not just the agreement that's caused so much pain, and Willie knows it.

• 48:23Speaker 07

  What about the press?

• 48:24Matt Forde?

  William looks confused. Harry stays on him.

• 48:28Speaker 07

  You could have spoken up, about the vile stuff they've said about Meg. We don't engage. We never fucking engage.

• 48:36Matt Forde?

  Harry laughs bitterly. He heard Willie's comments after the Oprah interview. He's just as capable of breaking royal protocol as Harry is.

• 48:45Speaker 07

  You just didn't want to. Do you know what this has been doing to Meg? Why does it always have to be about her?

• 48:53Matt Forde?

  Harry blinks at him, shocked. He just can't see it, that Meg is part of him now, a non-negotiable. He stays on Willie, but as he does, he sees his brother's eyes harden, his posture stiffen. It's as if any common ground that remained, any of their old "us against the fucking world" camaraderie, is now gone.

• 49:16Matt Forde?

  And Harry realises. He doesn't feel angry at Willie anymore. He feels sad for him. He's a prisoner and he can't even see it. But to Harry, it's never been clearer. He's free. I should go.

• 49:33Speaker 07

  Yes, you should.

• 49:36Matt Forde?

  Harry watches Willie walk back to the castle, through the burial ground with all its royal ghosts, towards his predetermined life of service and sacrifice. He sighs and turns in the opposite direction, to the car that will carry him back to the airport. He doesn't know what his future with Meghan and their new family holds, but he'll take his chances. Because the alternative, staying in a system that nearly destroyed the woman he loves, is no future at all.

• 50:28Matt Forde?

  Following Queen Elizabeth II's death in September 2022, William and Harry were briefly seen together in public at Windsor, alongside Kate and Meghan, the last time the four were seen together. Since then, relations have deteriorated further. Harry remains embroiled in a long-running dispute over taxpayer-funded UK security. Towards the end of 2025, he held a private meeting with King Charles, who is undergoing cancer treatment, but relations are still understood to be fragile. At the time of recording, Harry and William are widely reported to remain estranged.

• 51:15Matt Forde?

  From Audible Originals and Samistat Audio, this is the third episode in our series, Harry v. Wills.

• 51:20Alice Levine?

  A quick note about our dialogue: in most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but all our dramatizations are based on historical research.

• 51:28Matt Forde?

  If you'd like to know more about the story, you can read Spare by Prince Harry, Battle of Brothers: William Harry and the Inside Story of a Family in tumult by Robert Lacey, and The Palace Papers by Tina Brown. You can watch Meghan vs. Kate: The Meeting That Changed the Monarchy on Channel 5, or you can watch Harry and Meghan's interview with Oprah Winfrey on ITVX.

• 51:50Alice Levine?

  And if you'd like to get in touch with us, you can email us at [email protected], and we love hearing from you.

• 51:57Matt Forde?

  British Scandal is hosted by me, Matt Ford.

• 51:59Alice Levine?

  And me, Alice Levine.

• 52:00Matt Forde?

  Written by Wendy Granditer. Additional writing by Alice Levine and Matt Ford. Our story editor was James Maniac. Sound design by Rich Evans. Our engineer was Jai Williams. For Samistat, our series producer was Chica Ayers. Our assistant producer was Louise Mason. Our senior producers were Joe Sykes and Dasha Lisitzina. Our engineer was Jai Williams. Executive producers for Audible were Theodora Leludis and Destol Doyle.

• 53:19Speaker 13

  Story about fake accidents that lead to real consequences and a scheme that ends in betrayal and murder. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

• 53:42Speaker 14

  Ghosts aren't real. At least, that's what journalist Tristan Redmond always believed. Sure, odd things happened in his childhood bedroom, but ultimately, he shrugged them off. Until he discovered that he wasn't alone, that everyone who lived thereafter him also had bizarre experiences they couldn't explain. And it gets even weirder. It just so happens that his wife's great-grandmother was murdered in the house next door. Is this ghost somehow connected to her murder? He decides to go where no son-in-law should, digging up a cold case and asking questions that nobody wants answered. Like, could his wife's great-grandfather have gotten away with the perfect crime? This is a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming

• 54:24Speaker 14

  coincidence, and the things that come back to haunt us. For the best bingeable series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can get all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.