Edo Japan (Radio Edit)

In this episode, Greg Jenner is joined in 17th-Century Japan by Dr Satona Suzuki and comedian Ahir Shah to learn all about the Edo period and the Tokugawa shogunate. When he came to power in 1603, Tokugawa Ieyasu became the first shogun to rule over all Japan. He made Edo – later renamed Tokyo – his power base, and over the 250 years of Tokugawa rule, this small town became one of the largest cities in the world. This episode charts the rise and fall of the shogunate, and explores what life was like for people living in Japan at this time. From politics to theatre, and taking in foreign relations, the class system, art and literature, Greg and his guests get to grips with all aspects of life in the Edo period. This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Annabel Storr Written by: Annabel Storr, Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: James Cook

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Greg Jenner?

  This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Hosts Thanksgiving with industry-leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are no antibiotics in their meat department, ever, so carve up turkey and spiral-cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 brand. And guess what? All their delectable pies are made with no high-fructose corn syrup. Gourmet Thanksgiving flavours with the quality you want, only at Whole Foods Market.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans in amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:05Speaker 03

  BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

• 1:10Greg Jenner?

  Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are boarding our black ships and sailing back to 17th century Japan to learn all about life in the Edo period. And to help us distinguish our Kosoe from Makimono, we have two very special guests in history corner. She's a lecturer in both Japanese and modern Japanese history at Soas, University of London. It's Dr Satana Suzuki. Welcome, Satana.

• 1:38Speaker 04

  Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here today.

• 1:41Greg Jenner?

  We're very excited to have you. And in comedy corner, he's a stand-up comedian, writer and the winner of the Edinburgh Festival Comedy Award 2023. Maybe you've heard him on Radio 4, but you'll definitely remember him from our episodes about Julius Caesar, Julius Kaiser or the Indus Civilization. It's Aheer Shah. Welcome back, Aheer.

• 1:57Speaker 05

  Hello. Thank you very much for having me back. I'm very excited about this.

• 2:00Greg Jenner?

  When I asked if you wanted to do this show, your face lit up with a frenzied zeal I've not seen before.

• 2:06Speaker 05

  I was first asked about this when I'd just finished watching Shogun and was listening to the audiobook. In fact, I may well have been listening to the audiobook when I first got an email about it. So I was like, right, I definitely know everything about this topic based on what I'm sure was a documentary I recently watched.

• 2:27Greg Jenner?

  So I think we can say we've got two experts in the room today, which is very exciting. So, what do you know?

• 2:37Greg Jenner?

  This is why I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And for listeners outside of Japan, I suspect chances are the answer is not very much, much like me. Maybe you've seen the Keanu Reeves historical blockbuster, 47 Ronin. Maybe you're a video game fan and you've played Shogun Total War, my fave. But most likely you'll know the recent TV series that I have mentioned already, Shogun. It's based on a novel by James Clavell, which lightly fictionalises the foundation of the Tokugawa Shogunate. And if you're a real Shogun head, maybe you saw the short-lived 1990 musical, also based on Clavell's novel. But what's the true story behind this brilliant TV show? What did samurai really get up to? Let's find out. Right, I hear. When did the Edo period start?

• 3:19Speaker 05

  Is Edo the sort of name that was getting to what we now call Tokyo? Was called Edo at the time. I'm going to go 1647.

• 3:28Greg Jenner?

  Well, the show is set in 1600. And as a satanar, we start the dynasty a tiny bit later. We start it the same year that in England or Britain, we start the Stuart era, 1603. So how long is the Edo period? Why did we start it there?

• 3:44Speaker 04

  So the Edo period lasted from 1603, so that's when Tokugawa Ieyasu was appointed Shogun by the emperor, to 1867, that's when Tokugawa Yoshinobu, that's the last Shogun, returned the land and register to the emperor. So 260 years, something like that. I'm not really good at math, but something like 260 years. So it's a long time, right?

• 4:09Greg Jenner?

  And this is a time of warfare, instability. This is not a peaceful era.

• 4:15Speaker 04

  No, it's not. It's the Edo period was preceded by a period of constant warfare and instability for about 100 years. But then between 1560 and 1582, Oda Nobunaga, that's one of my favourite historical figure, he was one of the warring state daimyo, and he sort of used force to extend control over 2,000 of Japan. Unfortunately, one of his subordinates, Akechi Mizhide, he assassinated Oda Nobunaga in 1582. And after that, his other subordinate, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, he rose to power.

• 4:54Greg Jenner?

  So Hideoji conquered Japan in 1590, died in 1598.

• 4:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:59Greg Jenner?

  Who takes over from him then?

• 5:01Speaker 04

  Toyotomi Hideoji, that's Toyotomi Hideoji's five-year-old son.

• 5:06Greg Jenner?

  Oh.

• 5:06Speaker 04

  So he was left in charge, but he was managed by a group of five regents.

• 5:13Speaker 05

  I am very, very unlikely to conquer Japan. Right? However, if I did, and eight years later, I died, and de jure, if not de facto, rule passed to my five-year-old son, I would be so gutted. Do you know what I mean? Like, I've done all this effort, like, only eight years would suck.

• 5:36Greg Jenner?

  So the five-year-old is the new shogun, but not really. A council is put in charge, and one of the members of that council is a rival of Hideoji.

• 5:45Speaker 04

  That's right, yeah. One of the regents was Tokugawa Ieyasu. He thought that he was more qualified to unify Japan than anyone else, you know? Looking back, he was right. So, yeah, in 1600, at the Battle of Sekigahara, Ieyasu sort of destroyed a forces loyal to the Toyotomi family.

• 6:03Greg Jenner?

  And that is the big win that establishes the beginnings of the Edo Shogunate.

• 6:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, in 1603, he was actually named a shogun.

• 6:13Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so Tokugawa Ieyasu, named shogun. He is the first shogun of our period, of the Edo period. Aya, do you know what it translates to in English, shogun?

• 6:24Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 6:25Speaker 04

  Or say tai shogun, that's the official title. You should know this.

• 6:30Speaker 05

  I should know what?

• 6:31Greg Jenner?

  You should know this, Aya, come on.

• 6:35Speaker 05

  It's like, the way that you said that, like, I briefly queried whether you had personally taught me Japanese in the past. And like, you said it with, like, you said it with the authority of, like, my mum when I, like, miss a bit of grammar in Gujarati or something. It's like, what are you doing? How did I raise you? Like, what's going on? Shogun, maybe that just means like warlord or something, I don't know?

• 6:57Greg Jenner?

  That's a good sensible guess. The official translation would be barbarian, subduing general.

• 7:03Speaker 05

  Nice. What a succinct language.

• 7:05Speaker 04

  Tokuha is was not the first shogun, but he was the first shogun of all Japan.

• 7:14Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 7:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:14Greg Jenner?

  Oh, okay.

• 7:15Speaker 04

  Basically, he unified the country.

• 7:17Greg Jenner?

  What is the relationship between shogun and emperor then?

• 7:20Speaker 04

  The emperor's capital was in Kyoto and then shogun's capital was in Edo. But Edo was the political and administrative center of Japan. So during the Edo period, emperor had an important symbolic role, but he was essentially a prisoner in his palace. They are not allowed to step outside of their palace. They weren't even allowed to take a walk.

• 7:42Greg Jenner?

  Wow.

• 7:42Speaker 04

  So the shogun had to keep him happy as the legitimizer of the political power, but also control and restricted the emperor via the law.

• 7:52Greg Jenner?

  Who are the social groups in society at this time? We had the elite groups, don't we? So we should, we start with them.

• 7:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, so society was divided into basically four social classes. So you have the samurai elites and then you have peasants, artisans and merchants. And, you know, at the top of the elite group were the daimyo, the feudal lords, who are rulers of domains or han in Japanese. And they autonomously governed these domains or han. But every alternate year, they had to live in Edo and their families were essentially hostages of the Tokuha to ensure their loyalty to the shogun. So the family had to stay in Edo.

• 8:33Greg Jenner?

  From my point of view, growing up, I knew a lot about ninjas and samurai, but actually I didn't really.

• 8:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:39Greg Jenner?

  You know, so what do you think of when you think of samurai?

• 8:42Speaker 05

  The image is the image that everyone has in their head, you know, like the armor and the swords and these sorts of things. I think that it's like a hereditary thing or a family thing. It's linked to like your family or house or whatever, but it comes with its own set of particular duties, but also its own particular set of privileges, such as basically being able to do whatever you want to anyone who isn't a samurai.

• 9:07Greg Jenner?

  Satana, is that a good summary?

• 9:09Speaker 04

  I guess, yes. I mean, they were elites. They are not commoners, right? Samurai basically means warriors, but Edo samurai are different to how they are thought of now because, you know, at the time of peace, they don't fight, right?

• 9:25Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 9:25Speaker 04

  Yeah. And then they're often sort of administrators who are like paid salary with the rice stipends. So they're like salary.

• 9:33Speaker 05

  So you just become a.

• 9:33Speaker 04

  Civil servant. Something, yeah, something like that. Oh, my God. My wife's a samurai? That's good. Amazing.

• 9:41Greg Jenner?

  They're just slicing their way through mountains of paperwork.

• 9:45Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, so artisans are craftspeople, they're making things. Peasants are farmers and then merchants are selling.

• 9:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, so merchants, well, like merchants really, yeah. So officially, at the bottom of this, you know, hierarchy, the social system. But, you know, they're often sort of despised for handling money. I don't know why people do that. I like money. We can't do anything with money. I mean, I don't love it, but you need it. I'm being paid eight thousand pounds to be on this.

• 10:17Speaker 04

  You get more than me.

• 10:20Speaker 04

  But in reality, though, many became very, very rich and very wealthy. And they sort of started to exact power and influence towards the end of the Tokugawa. You know, because the commerce and transportation developed and they have more jobs, right? But samurai, on the other hand, especially the Ora Rankin samurai, they became very, very impoverished towards the end. And the population too, between sixteen hundred and seventeen twenty, something like that, was estimated to have doubled. But later in the period, the population growth sort of stagnated, so it sort of stopped. It plummeted every time farming hit Japan.

• 10:58Greg Jenner?

  Satana, you said in the second half of the Edo period, which we're saying is two hundred and sixty five years or so.

• 11:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:04Greg Jenner?

  In the second half of that period, the economic sort of patterns, they change and there's a sort of decrease in population, there's a slowdown. So what happens at that time then?

• 11:15Speaker 04

  So it's because of this, you know, development of commerce and transportation. It was really kind of really vigorous and of course it depends on the region. But some countryside industries really, really flourished, you know, like sake. You like sake? I like sake. Yeah. And silk and cotton and ceramics and things like that. So it was really, really vibrant.

• 11:37Greg Jenner?

  So that was life in the kind of rural areas, I think. Ahir, I want to turn to you and ask you about city life, actually. So what do you imagine of the Edo period and the cities in Japan at this time?

• 11:49Speaker 05

  Again, I'm, listen, I'm going off a documentary that I recently watched, all right? But I think that if you were, let's just say, at random, a 17th century naval explorer who landed from England on a Dutch ship, you would be really struck by both the size and cleanliness of the cities relative to those you were used to in your native Europe.

• 12:16Greg Jenner?

  I think that's a very fair answer. And of course, that is, I mean, the character in the, in the show is not a real character, but it's based on a real guy, William Adams. So there was a, there was an English pilot who arrived in, in Japan. This, we call this the Edo period because of Edo the city, which was huge, wasn't it, Satana?

• 12:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, city was really growing and the samurai became mostly city residents and things. And not just Edo, but Osaka, Kyoto were like growing as well. But like, like you said, the biggest of all is Edo, which was originally a really small castle town. But by 1720, early 1700s, had already reached a population of one million, apparently. Yeah, this marked the largest city in the world at the time by population. Tokyo still is the largest. And Osaka was the biggest commercial hub, of course, you know, with many rich rice merchants and things. There was a shift later in the period to rural industries, which led to the declining economic power of some urban areas.

• 13:15Greg Jenner?

  I mean, economic decline, boo, but I don't know anything about the history of economics, so I'm going to move on to the stuff that I like.

• 13:22Speaker 05

  And that's why you're not being paid eight thousand pounds to hear.

• 13:27Greg Jenner?

  So let's talk more about culture and entertainment in Edo, Japan. Ahir, what do you think are the, the go-to cultural kind of touchstones that people respect and admire?

• 13:37Speaker 05

  Huge theatrical tradition.

• 13:39Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 13:40Speaker 05

  In Japan, for sure. Musical tradition, poetic tradition, those would be. Three of my guesses.

• 13:47Greg Jenner?

  Excellent guesses. Satana, I mean, let's talk about theatre.

• 13:50Speaker 04

  So Edo culture was really, really thriving, especially those things like theatre. But mainly sort of three major things, so Kabuki, you might know. It is a traditional theatre with a dramatic performance with dance. And then Bundaku, that's a puppet theatre involving like two thirds life-sized puppets controlled by three men with musicians and singer actions, you know, chanting and narration. And then No, do you know, no?

• 14:17Greg Jenner?

  No, I don't.

• 14:18Speaker 04

  So it's like a musical. Performers wear like masks and sings and dance to musical musical instruments. And history or patronage of No theatre went right back to Hideyoshi. Meaning it was closely embedded with the lives of the elites since time you were often expected to patronize the arts.

• 14:37Greg Jenner?

  And how long does a play last? You know, is it two hours with an intermission?

• 14:40Speaker 04

  Well, it could be two hours, but sometimes it could last for days, you know.

• 14:46Greg Jenner?

  That's too much culture. What other arts and cultural activities are important in Edo, Japan, Satana? A visual art I want to think about.

• 14:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, so woodblock printing became very popular because it could sort of publish literature and art very cheaply and mass. So this rising commercial printing coincided with the rising literacy rates as well. And in terms of art, the most significant is Ukioe. You might have heard of it, like it's literally translated as floating world pictures. And culturally, it made it possible to have a vivid glimpse into Edo culture. You know, people can see that from fashion to ledger activities like Kabuki and sumo wrestling and tea house and all the brothels.

• 15:32Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 15:33Speaker 04

  Artistically speaking, you know, Ukioe achieved remarkably sort of detailed and vibrant colors and complex competitions and had a huge impact on Western artists.

• 15:45Greg Jenner?

  So that slightly brings us on actually to something I wanted to to bring up next actually is Edo Japan's relationship with the wider world because obviously Japan is a series of islands. Ahir, what do you know of Japan's attitude towards foreign traders and missionaries in this time?

• 16:01Speaker 05

  My understanding was that basically during the Tokugawa Shogunate, with the exception of like certain sort of naval trading relationships with, I guess, like China and Korea, pretty much cut off from the rest of the world.

• 16:14Greg Jenner?

  Intentionally self cut off from the rest of the world until the major restoration?

• 16:17Speaker 04

  Very close, yes, it's very, yeah, it's it's correct, really. Yeah, so Tokugawa Japan had a very sort of limited diplomatic relation with the Dutch, the Chinese and the Koreans. So Dutch and the Chinese, they were sort of kind of merchants, basically, were confined to this little manmade fun sort of fun shaped island called Dijima near Nagasaki. And the Koreans through the Tsushima domain. Japan traded with the Portuguese and the Spaniards and allowed missionary activities, but some daimyo in southern parts of Japan were Christians too. And rulers, including Hideoshi and Ieyasu, restricted missionary activities in between sixteen thirty three and thirty nine.

• 16:58Speaker 04

  Tokugawa Ieyasu also issued a series of regulations, including prohibiting Japanese people from, you know, leaving Japan and coming back to Japan, things like that. He also banned the export of weapons and the teaching of Christianity in Japan. But the massive rebellion in the Christian stronghold of Shimabara in sixteen thirty seven sixty eight was like the last straw. It was a combination of economic religious factors, but, you know, from sixteen thirty nine onwards, Japan adopted this national seclusion policy.

• 17:31Greg Jenner?

  But that does not mean that Japan was completely isolated, Satana, you know, the the idea here that they, it's not like they shut the door and and trapped out the, you know, they didn't stop the world getting in, did they?

• 17:42Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, I mean, not entirely, but for one, they had the Dutch trading connections, right, like and the Chinese. But only the bakuhu had the right to trade. The bakuhu means the shogunate, so it's the military government controlled by the shogun. So you might have this perception that Edo Japan was closed off completely or or isolated, but they're actually very much aware of what was going on in the rest of the world.

• 18:09Greg Jenner?

  And this policy of semi-isolation held until the end of the period, towards the eighteen fifties. Ahia, do you know who turned up in the eighteen fifties knocking on Japan's door? Twas I!

• 18:23Speaker 05

  I've lived in this world long before any of you and will be here long after.

• 18:29Greg Jenner?

  Normally on this show, the default answer is the British Empire. That's normally what happens about 80%. Weirdly, on this one, it's America.

• 18:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, the United States.

• 18:38Greg Jenner?

  Which I was not expecting. The Americans show up in the 1850s and it's a guy by the name of Commodore Matthew Perry. Not the beloved actor from Friends. 1853, tell me the story, Satana.

• 18:47Speaker 04

  Commodore Matthew Perry, he, his black ship arrived at the Edo Bay in 1853. So the main objective is to open Japan to American trade, obviously, you know. The US wanted new markets, access to Japanese coal, and also secure a safe base for its whaling ships. And also establishing a presence in Japan was, you know, strategically very important as one of the rising imperial powers, right? So Perry persuaded the Baku's representatives that it would be better for Japan to sign a treaty with America than the British. You know, you know how much damage the British Empire inflicted on China, you know, the obvious wars and things, right?

• 19:30Speaker 05

  As a British Indian man, it's something that I have a passing familiarity with.

• 19:35Speaker 05

  There are complex historical reasons between this face and this voice.

• 19:41Greg Jenner?

  Okay, I hear we've got a picture, actually, we can show you. This is by an unknown artist. It's one of Matthew Perry's ships. Would you like to describe it for us?

• 19:49Speaker 05

  It's black, it's a black ship. Right, I would describe the vibers off. The ship has a face, but the face has a big horn like a narwhal. But a man's face who does not look like, he looks pleased, but in a bad way.

• 20:11Speaker 04

  Evil.

• 20:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, evil, evil pleased.

• 20:14Greg Jenner?

  Uh, this is a depiction of a suspicious foreign power, Satana.

• 20:20Speaker 04

  Hmm. Wow. That's, that's the perception at the time.

• 20:23Greg Jenner?

  And once the Americans are sort of through the door, Britain are like, well, could we come in?

• 20:30Greg Jenner?

  You've done a deal with them and we're good at empires too. So the British, who else, Satana?

• 20:35Speaker 04

  All the big boys, you know, the British, the French and the Dutch and, you know, Prussian and sort of Russian also sent ships, you know, these imperial powers with the capital P. Normally when one imperial power signed a treaty, treaty meaning unequal treaty, others followed.

• 20:53Greg Jenner?

  Ahir, if you were the government of the Shogunate of Japan, how would you respond to this influx of Western powers waving treaties in your face?

• 20:59Speaker 05

  You can really imagine someone standing to the side, just being like, I did tell you that if you gave one, they'd all want one, right? And what's happened? What's happened?

• 21:11Greg Jenner?

  The Ahir Shogunate is very much one of saying, I told you so. Is that right?

• 21:17Speaker 05

  No, no, no. In this, I'm the sort of like slightly harried shogun being like, yeah, I get it. I get it. All right.

• 21:23Greg Jenner?

  Satana, the really interesting thing is that the Shogunate at this stage consults the emperor, who for 250 years has been sort of, you know, over there somewhere in Kyoto. But suddenly the shogun consults the emperor for his advice.

• 21:38Speaker 04

  Hmm. Yeah, because they panicked and this act of asking backfired majorly for the Shogunate because emperor at the time was Kome, Kome, Tenno Kome. Uh, he, he said, no, you, you, you should just fulfill your duty as barbarian subduing general. Uh, but in 1850, 1858, sorry, yeah. Uh, the Shogunate gave in to pressure and signed an equal treaty with America without imperial approval. So that sort of angered many samurai loyalists, leading to this movement called Sonno Joi Movement, Undo. That means Sonno is revered emperor, expelled barbarian movement.

• 22:20Greg Jenner?

  Oh, good name for a movement.

• 22:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, it is.

• 22:24Greg Jenner?

  Two different policies in one movement. I like that.

• 22:26Speaker 04

  Yeah. It was not anti-Bakuhu movement to start with, but that sort of radically, you know, becoming anti-Bakuhu too, over time.

• 22:35Greg Jenner?

  And so we've got all these domestic issues now in the 1860s. So we've got famines, angry peasants in the countryside, angry people in the cities, a bunch of foreign countries parking their warships on Japan's front lawn. Ahir, how would you solve this in the Ahir shogunate? I'm gonna keep using that, I'm sorry. I'm very happy with it.

• 22:51Speaker 05

  I would just be like, do you know what? 260 is a good run.

• 22:57Greg Jenner?

  You'd say, what, just sort of farewell, thanks very much, you have a go?

• 23:03Speaker 05

  No, no, I don't think that I would do that. You've got to stand up, you've got to stand your ground.

• 23:07Greg Jenner?

  Okay, good. I mean, Satana, we're coming towards the Meiji Restoration. So do you want to talk us through the lead up to that?

• 23:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the Meiji Restoration of 1868, that brought an end to the shogunate because of a combination of internal, external factors. But before that, there's also, you know, ongoing conflicts over the succession of the shogunate between Iinoosuke and Sam Furaydaimyo, who wanted 12-year-old Tokugawa Yoshitomi. And the 12-year-old Yoshitomi was put forward because he would be controlled by the chief councillor, you know, it would be more easy.

• 23:45Speaker 05

  Did no one go, this whole thing started because someone tried to put a baby in charge? Like, maybe let's not do that.

• 23:56Greg Jenner?

  Five was too young, but maybe 12 is just right.

• 23:59Speaker 04

  12 at the time is maybe 30 years old today, so it's okay.

• 24:05Greg Jenner?

  Do they choose the 12-year-old then? Is that the decision?

• 24:07Speaker 04

  Yes, yes. But the 12-year-old was the 14th shogun, but the other one became the, you know, 15th shogun anyway. So it was just a matter of timing, really, yeah.

• 24:17Greg Jenner?

  So things are going really wrong, because we're back to the political violence that we started our story with, really.

• 24:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:22Greg Jenner?

  And you've got ongoing conflicts. So by 1866, the shogunate military forces, it's going really wrong for them. And when is the Meiji Restoration? 1860?

• 24:33Speaker 04

  January the 3rd, 1868. Yes, that's when the royal ranking samurai from Satoma Choushu, Hizen, and, gosh, Satoma Choushu, Hizen, and Tosa, sorry, my students who have a go at me.

• 24:50Speaker 04

  And together with certain progressive courtiers, you know, from the courts, they decided to carry out this coup d'etat, like a really peaceful coup d'etat. It's just a sort of discussion, but coup d'etat. That, you know, the Meiji Emperor, the 16-year-old, getting older. Meiji Emperor is the new sovereign and they established this imperial rule.

• 25:13Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so the shogun steps down, the emperor steps up.

• 25:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:17Greg Jenner?

  It's the endo of the Edo. It's the, it's out, it's done. Mission accomplished. 265 years. Edo period completed it, mate.

• 25:28Greg Jenner?

  The nuance window.

• 25:35Greg Jenner?

  Okay, well, that's been a fascinating chat. It's, it's time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Ahia and I set down our samurai swords and we sit quietly with our rice bowl for two minutes while Dr. Satana takes centre stage to tell us something we need to know about Edo, Japan, without much further ado.

• 25:50Speaker 04

  It's very incredible how long the Edo period lasted. 260 years and Edo, Japan, you know, thrived due to political stability and economic growth and also cultural development. And political stability was maintained through the, I'd say, effective governance of the Tokugawa Shogunate, you know, this, you know, carrot and stick strategy and granting autonomy while implementing the hostage system. So I thought it was quite clever. The Shogunate maintained contact with the rest of the world through the Dutch and Chinese, albeit in, in a sort of passive manner. So that sort of indicated that Edo, Japan was still part of the international community, you could say.

• 26:32Speaker 04

  But while some may argue that Edo, Japan was sort of technologically, culturally and intellectually limited and sort of susceptible to external pressure because of this long period of isolation, you can see the flourishing arts, crafts and technologies during the Edo period. And, you know, they're, they're amazing. So that suggests otherwise. I'm personally, I'm more drawn to the cultural aspects of the period. You know, like ukiyo-e and literature, especially ghost stories. I recommend that. You should just read that. It's great. And also theatre, you know, these are like still vital components of Japanese culture today. For example, I don't know whether I can say this, but I'm a huge fan

• 27:15Speaker 04

  of manga, you know, the comic, Japanese comic. Do you read this? I don't know. But I still read a lot of them and spend far too much, so a salary on it. Because, you know, whenever I come across references of edoculture, which you see a lot, it often, you know, amazes me how, how much edoculture still impact Japan today. Go and read manga.

• 27:41Greg Jenner?

  Thank you, Satana, for that wonderful lesson.

• 27:44Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 27:45Greg Jenner?

  Really enjoyable. Listener, after today's episode, you want more from Aheer? We've got our episodes on the rise of Julius Kaiser and the Indus Civilization. And for a different East Asian story, try our episode on Tang Dynasty China. That's a medieval story, which I enjoyed very much. But it's time to just say thank you to our guests in history corner. We had the sensational Dr. Satana Suzuki from Soas. Thank you, Satana.

• 28:06Speaker 04

  Thank you so much. I had a great fun.

• 28:08Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, it was real fun. And in comedy corner, we had the always amazing Aheer Shah. Thank you, Aheer. Thank you. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we restore another topic to its rightful place in history. But for now, I'm off to go and stage a revival of Shogun the Musical, because every Shogun needs show tunes. Bye.

• 28:34Speaker 05

  I wanted to speak to the souls of a million strangers.

• 28:38Speaker 06

  This Cultural Life from BBC Radio 4.

• 28:40Speaker 05

  I actually started crying.

• 28:41Speaker 06

  Leading artistic figures reveal the influences that inspired their own creativity.

• 28:46Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 28:47Speaker 06

  I'm John Wilson, and we've had over a hundred guests on the show so far, including Nile Rodgers and Zadie Smith.

• 28:52Speaker 04

  I wanted to read everything without borders.

• 28:54Speaker 06

  Andrew Scott. If you miss out the sense of the absurd, then you're missing such a major part of what makes human beings wonderful. Judi Dench, Paul McCartney, Whoopi Goldberg, Tracey Emin, Lily Allen.

• 29:04Speaker 03

  I felt like I could be seen and affect people.

• 29:08Speaker 06

  Listen to This Cultural Life on BBC Sounds. It's like the beating of your heart. That's why I love it so much.

• 29:17Speaker 05

  It was the first dinosaur ever to be scientifically named. And he came up with an animal that was about 40 foot long. A profound discovery that led to paleontology as we know it today. Impossible monsters, these giant weird reptilian creatures. This was like a thunderbolts. Join me, Misha Glennie, and my three guests for In Our Time. On this episode, Megalosaurus. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.