Pod Insights National Park After Dark The Cost of Survival: The Cordillera Huayhuash Reserved Zone (Part 1) About this episode High in the Cordillera Huayhuash Reserve of the Peruvian Andes, two British climbers attempt the first ascent of the West Face of Siula Grande. The mountain is remote, unforgiving, and lethal to mistakes. After reaching the summit, a catastrophic accident during the descent forces a decision that places survival and death on opposite ends of a single rope. For a full list of our sources, visit http://npadpodcast.com/episodesFor the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials at:Instagram: @nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page! Thank you to the week’s partners! Quince: Use our link to get free shipping and 365-day returns. IQBAR: Text PARK to 64000 to get 20% off all IQBAR products and free shipping. Smalls: Smalls New Year’s Special - get 60% off your first order, plus free shipping, when you head to Smalls.com/NPAD. BetterHelp: National Park After Dark is sponsored by BetterHelp. Get 10% off.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:03 Cassandra Yahnian? In mountaineering, more than almost any other pursuit, survival depends on absolute trust. From the moment two climbers leave the ground, they are connected by a single rope that binds their bodies, decisions, and lives together. That rope can save you from falling to your death, but only if your partner is careful, technically skilled, and fully present. Every step requires diligence, strength, and discipline because the consequences of failure are final. Climbers train relentlessly to be the best teammate they can be. They refine their technical ability, obsess over year, rehearse safety systems, and memorize procedures, all because they understand that their partner's life is literally in their hands.
1:47 Cassandra Yahnian? The rope between them becomes a physical symbol of that trust, something sacred, something you protect at all costs. Because of that, it feels almost unthinkable to imagine a moment when you would intentionally sever it. But the mountains are indifferent to ethics and intention. In alpine environments, even the most skilled mountaineers can find themselves in precarious situations. One, where saving a partner means risking your own life, and where holding on just a few seconds longer could ensure that neither of you survives. In those moments, climbers are forced to confront a question most people will never face. How much would you risk to bring your partner home alive?
2:30 Cassandra Yahnian? And where is the line where trying to save someone guarantees that both of you die? Everyone has a limit and a line they can't cross, and the mountains have a way of finding it.
2:43 Cassandra Yahnian? Welcome to National Park After Dark.
3:06 Danielle LaRock? Hello, everyone, and welcome to the first main episode of 2026.
3:11 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah, happy 2026, everybody. We're starting off strong because we're starting with a survival story. And not only is it a survival story, but we're doing a two-parter to start off 2026.
3:22 Danielle LaRock? And not only is it a two-part survival story, it is a two-part survival story that has been recommended and wanted for years.
3:32 Cassandra Yahnian? Yes. And not only has it been recommended and asked for for years, it's also not in a national park.
3:41 Danielle LaRock? Oh.
3:44 Danielle LaRock? Okay.
3:46 Danielle LaRock? Just what everyone wanted.
3:49 Cassandra Yahnian? It's in a reserved zone. Yeah, it's in a reserved zone adjacent to a national park. So technically it is, um, it is a preserved area and it has significant ecological value, but it's just not technically a national park.
4:06 Danielle LaRock? Okay, that's fine.
4:07 Cassandra Yahnian? Get into, but the story is just too good. The story is too good to not dive into. And it's a pretty popular story, but I for one did not know all the details. And I think what makes this story so interesting is that it's such a conversation starter of what would you do in this situation? And a situation that a lot of us will probably never find ourselves in unless you are an extreme mountaineer, which I am not, um, and climbers, but still it's a great story.
4:38 Danielle LaRock? Well, it sounds intense.
4:39 Cassandra Yahnian? So might as well start.
4:40 Danielle LaRock? Yeah, it sounds like an intense way to kick off a new year. So whether regardless of if it's in a national park or not, I think it's fine.
4:50 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah. And I think for 2026, we always try to get the hard hitting stories. But for 2026, we're really, we're really honing in on them. We got some hard hitters in line for the next couple of months, I would say. So.
5:05 Danielle LaRock? Yeah, we've kind of like evolved a little bit with how we plan out the show. Because at first it was just totally random and we never have overlapped. And we kind of remark about that from time to time about how funny that is. But now we kind of are more intentional with what stories we tell and when, and the cadence of which we do it and why we select certain stories and things like that. So, um, all of that to say, this year we have some in mind that are going to be pretty cool.
5:42 Cassandra Yahnian? Pretty cool. And I personally, I don't know, when winter comes around, I love a good winter survival story. I think it just, it hits, it hits different when you're physically.
5:52 Danielle LaRock? Well, because you're like a living.
5:53 Cassandra Yahnian? Listening to it. Yeah.
5:55 Danielle LaRock? Yeah.
5:56 Cassandra Yahnian? So they just hit different for me, which is part of why I wanted to tell this one.
6:00 Danielle LaRock? Hmm. Well, I have one. Oh, I have one you're gonna like. It's cold.
6:05 Cassandra Yahnian? And then currently cold. If you see me on YouTube right now, I put on an actual sweater. And right before this, I started, we have two, uh, we have two wood stoves and I started both of them up. And I cranked our heat up because I was freezing.
6:19 Danielle LaRock? Yeah, it's 12 degrees right now.
6:21 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
6:22 Danielle LaRock? It's obscene.
6:23 Cassandra Yahnian? I love winter. I love so much.
6:26 Danielle LaRock? You keep saying that.
6:27 Cassandra Yahnian? It is my, it is probably my favorite season. Um, it gets up there higher and higher each year, but I am cold. And I don't enjoy that part as much.
6:37 Danielle LaRock? Well, I'm excited to hear, uh, about whatever you have in store for us. I know ver- I'm going to say right off the bat. For as much as this story has been requested, I know very, very little about it.
6:49 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
6:49 Danielle LaRock? And I know it's a super popular one, like not only in the outdoor community, but I feel like in general, I think a lot of people know of this story.
6:57 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah. So we're going to be telling the survival story of Joe Simpson and Simon Yates. And if you, if their names do not sound familiar, the book and the movie might, it's called Touching the Void. Both of them have that title. And if you haven't, if you still, still haven't heard of it, we're going to dive into it today. But before we get fully into the story, we'll get into the location that is not a national park, but maybe should be. Or maybe will be one day. I don't know. So this story takes place in a place that borders Washco on National Park. We are headed to Cordillera Wywash Reserve Zone in Peru, a high mountain range in the Andes that has been protected as a reserve natural area since 2002.
7:41 Cassandra Yahnian? In Peru, designated as a reserve zone is often considered the first step towards national park status, a way of preserving ecosystems and landscapes that are both fragile and extraordinary. So just because it's not a national park yet does not mean that there aren't pushes for it to one day become one. And it does border one. This area was protected with the goal of conserving its high mountain ecosystems and its exceptional scenery, and it's easy to understand why. The range is made up of massive jagged, snow-covered peaks that rise sharply from glacial valleys. Seven of them. Those peaks exceed nineteen thousand feet. And for comparison, the entire United States has only one mountain taller, which is Denali. Of course, in Denali National Park.
8:25 Cassandra Yahnian? The region is also known for its biodiversity. The name Wash Karan comes from Quechua, the indigenous language of the Andes, and roughly translates to weasel, a nod to the wildlife found throughout this region. More than a thousand plant species grow here, along with dozens of bird species and a range of mammals adapted to extreme altitude. The area's glaciers and lakes provide water to communities far beyond the mountains themselves. This region is remote even by Andean standards. The nearest village is roughly twenty-eight miles away, or forty-five kilometers, and reaching Lima requires several days by foot, mule, and vehicle through remote mountain terrain. So you can't just drive here. It is very, very, very remote.
9:10 Cassandra Yahnian? There are no easy access roads, there's no rescue infrastructure, and no quick way out if something goes wrong when you're recreating here. When climbers enter this range, they do so knowing that they are largely on their own. Among these peaks stands Siaula Grande, a mountain rising to roughly twenty-one thousand feet. At the time of our story, it had been climbed before, but one side of it remained completely unconquered. Its west face, a steep four-thousand-five-hundred-foot wall of ice and snow, had deterred mountaineers in the past. But in nineteen eighty-five, two British climbers, Joe Simpson and Simon Yates, believed they could be the first to climb it. And going into who they were,
9:53 Cassandra Yahnian? Joe Simpson was born in nineteen sixty in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, where his father was stationed with the British Army. Because of his father's career, Joe grew up moving frequently, spending parts of his childhood in different countries, before being sent to boarding school in the United Kingdom. He was one of five siblings and learned early how to adapt to unfamiliar environments. Joe discovered climbing in his early teens. Initially, it was a way to avoid getting pummeled in school rugby. He's like, "I don't want to play rugby. Let me climb." So he did that, but quickly it became something much more. He realized he had a natural aptitude for it and felt an immediate connection to the sport.
10:35 Cassandra Yahnian? His passion intensified after his school organized a mountaineering expedition that he was actually excluded from despite being one of the strongest climbers. The group went on to make a first ascent of a mountain in Pakistan and Joe was left behind. And at first this rejection devastated him. He's like, I could have been there. I could have been the first to do this too. Why wasn't I included? But that quickly turned into motivation. He later reflected that if others could not see that he was a natural mountaineer, he would prove it on his own. From that point on, he devoted himself fully to climbing, spending his free time training and his summers in the Alps, steadily building experience and confidence. Simon Yates was born in 1963 in Leicestershire, England.
11:21 Cassandra Yahnian? He studied biochemistry at Sheffield University, but like many climbers of that era, he was drawn to a nomadic life in the mountains. Compared to Joe, Simon came across as more easygoing and lighthearted. Joe admired this about him, noting that Simon seemed to laugh at misfortune as readily as he did success.
11:40 Danielle LaRock? So he has a good attitude.
11:41 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah, he's easygoing. He's like, yeah, this is great. No, no stress kind of guy. Simon had also witnessed firsthand how unforgiving the mountains could be. In the French Alps, he had seen two Japanese climbers roped together fall to their deaths. The experience left a lasting impression, reinforcing the reality that even experienced climbers could be lost in an instant.
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13:31 Cassandra Yahnian? Jo and Simon met in 1984 while climbing in Chamonix, France. They were part of a larger group and began climbing together when the opportunity arose. They were not exclusive partners, instead climbing with whoever happened to be around, but they quickly recognized that their skills and ambitions aligned. Both were at a point in their climbing careers where they wanted to move beyond the Alps and test themselves in more remote and demanding ranges. So for them, the Andes felt like the next logical step. Taller and larger than the European Alps, but not yet at the extreme altitudes of the Himalayas, the mountains of Peru offered a challenging proving ground. Over the winter of 1984 into 1985, Jo and Simon worked to save enough money to fund an expedition.
14:15 Cassandra Yahnian? In early 1985, they traveled to Peru and made their way into the Corda Ira Y wash. Just reaching the range was an undertaking. The journey involved long bus rides into remote valleys, followed by days of walking to establish a base camp at approximately 15,000 feet. And of course, like I mentioned earlier, the nearest village was roughly 28 miles away. At base camp, the scale of the mountains became fully apparent and it was astonishingly beautiful. Jagged, Glaciated peaks surrounded the camp and aquamarine lakes shimmered in the distance, fed by the surrounding glaciers. Joe recorded his impressions in his diary, writing that the place felt menacingly remote and exhilarating at the same time.
15:00 Cassandra Yahnian? There were no crowds, no helicopters, and notably, no possibility of rescue. Just them and the mountains. However, they were not entirely alone. At a rundown hotel in Lima, Joe and Simon had met a traveler named Richard Hawking. Richard was not a climber and had little experience in the mountains, but he was well-traveled and full of stories from his journeys through South America and through Africa. They never invited him to join their expedition, but he was intrigued by their plan, and Richard followed them into the mountains to see all of these beautiful mountains that they had been raving about. Richard agreed to stay at base camp while Joe and Simon attempted to climb, and he would watch over their gear.
15:43 Cassandra Yahnian? His presence provided some companionship and a small measure of reassurance, but once Joe and Simon left camp, they would be entirely on their own. But it's also like if they don't come back, they have this guy hanging out at base camp that can alert someone maybe sooner. And of course, they're going to bring a lot more supplies to base camp than they're going to bring to actually get to the summit of this mountain. They spent roughly two weeks acclimating to the altitude, attempting smaller climbs and exploring potential routes. Storms repeatedly forced them to turn back before reaching any summits, but they accepted this as part of the process rather than a warning. With ample food at base camp and time on their side,
16:27 Cassandra Yahnian? they waited for a stable window of weather, confident that when the moment came, they would be ready. That moment arrived in early June. On June 4th, 1985, Joe Simpson and Simon Yates left base camp with packs heavy with equipment and supplies. They climbed in Alpine style, leaving their main tent at base camp and committing to the face with only sleeping bags and minimal gear. Each night depended on digging snow caves into the slope, a choice that saved weight but made retreat difficult. Richard Hawking walked with them for part of the approach, accompanying them across eastern terrain towards the glacier that marked the beginning of the climb. Before turning back, he took photographs of the two men and joked that if they failed to return,
17:11 Cassandra Yahnian? he could sell the images as obituary photos.
17:14 Danielle LaRock? Well, okay. I mean, we do that all the time. Dark humor we use all the time. And
17:20 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
17:21 Danielle LaRock? We joke of, especially on our trips and stuff, like if I die, make it a good episode or something like that, you know?
17:30 Cassandra Yahnian? I like, this would be a great photo if I go missing.
17:33 Danielle LaRock? Oh, what would be my photo?
17:35 Cassandra Yahnian? What would you pick if you went missing?
17:37 Danielle LaRock? I don't know.
17:39 Cassandra Yahnian? I want a thirst trap photo of me.
17:46 Danielle LaRock? Uh, you have to give it to me. So I can, I can, you know?
17:51 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
17:52 Danielle LaRock? Distribute it or Al, whoever your emergency contact is.
17:56 Cassandra Yahnian? I'll give it to both of you.
17:58 Danielle LaRock? Yeah, cuz if you and Al go missing, you need a backup.
18:00 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah, then I need a backup. Yeah.
18:03 Danielle LaRock? And I feel like if you were to be in a situation where you would go missing, you'd be with Al.
18:07 Cassandra Yahnian? Really? I feel like I could be with you, too. We do a lot of traveling.
18:12 Danielle LaRock? Yeah, I was thinking more of, I'll put you more in situations that would. Like, I'm not, yeah. I get lost a lot.
18:22 Cassandra Yahnian? Not intentionally. It's like, if Danielle and I go missing together, it's not malicious. We just got lost.
18:27 Danielle LaRock? Yeah.
18:30 Cassandra Yahnian? We're just girls.
18:31 Danielle LaRock? We're just girls in the world.
18:33 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
18:33 Danielle LaRock? Trying to find our way.
18:38 Danielle LaRock? I'll think about, I don't know, we had, um, I, maybe, I think mine, you know what my answer is? Which, and it hasn't even happened yet, but I know I'll use it. So last year for my birthday, well, now, twenty twenty four. Cuz now technically it's twenty twenty six. We're recording in twenty twenty five, but I'm referring to twenty twenty four. So it's, it's very confusing.
19:00 Cassandra Yahnian? Yes.
19:01 Danielle LaRock? But Cassie, for my birthday in twenty twenty four, got me a, uh, gift certificate to have a tin type photo taken um, at a studio in Massachusetts. And my appointment is, uh, on December thirtieth of this year, twenty twenty five. I really
19:19 Cassandra Yahnian? Very soon. Has already happened if you're listening.
19:22 Danielle LaRock? Right. Um, but it's also very late from when you gave it to me. Um,
19:26 Cassandra Yahnian? Yes.
19:27 Danielle LaRock? Regardless, I just know I'll love that picture. It'll look old timey and I expect myself to be very stoic and scary looking and that's what I would do.
19:36 Cassandra Yahnian? It's an iconic missing persons photo.
19:39 Danielle LaRock? It's like, does she want to be found? We're not sure.
19:41 Cassandra Yahnian? It's like, she looks like she intentionally went missing.
19:44 Danielle LaRock? Yes, so that will be, that's my answer. And it doesn't even exist yet. I'll give it to you.
19:50 Cassandra Yahnian? Okay. Oh, yeah. I'll keep that in mind. It's a good one. It's a good one.
19:55 Danielle LaRock? Let the record show. Thirst trap for, thirst trap and like a mugshot.
20:01 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
20:02 Danielle LaRock? Victorian mugshot.
20:03 Cassandra Yahnian? Love it.
20:04 Danielle LaRock? And that's, that's our dynamic.
20:07 Cassandra Yahnian? Truly. A reflection of us.
20:09 Danielle LaRock? Yeah.
20:10 Cassandra Yahnian? In a missing, in a missing persons poster.
20:18 Cassandra Yahnian? Okay, so he makes this joke that he'll use these photos to sell us his obituary, their obituary photos and then they take off. The approach alone was pretty demanding. They crossed miles of glacial terrain before reaching the foot of the west face. Once on the ice, they roped up, put on crampons and began the long upward push. From the start, the climbing required total focus. They had to navigate crevasses that dropped deep into the mountain, unstable snow and steep ice that offered little margin for error. As they ascended, they settled into a rhythm. Swing the axe, kick the crampons, test the placement, move upward.
20:59 Cassandra Yahnian? The repetition was exhausting but necessary with each movement deliberate and controlled. By the end of the first day, they had made solid progress and Joe felt increasingly confident. Despite the altitude, both men felt strong and even matched. The second day was far more difficult. Much of the climbing involved steep ice, required them to drive their axes and crampons into hard surfaces while maintaining balance and conserving energy. As they climbed higher, the air thinned dramatically. Joe's heart pounded even when he moved slowly and every breath burned his lungs. Being on the west face in the southern hemisphere meant they remained in shade for most of the day and the cold intensified.
21:41 Cassandra Yahnian? I'm just thinking of us on our Hawaii trip when we drove, not climbed, to the very top of Hawaii Volcanoes National Park and we were freezing.
21:54 Cassandra Yahnian? And it was hard to breathe.
21:56 Danielle LaRock? Yep.
21:57 Cassandra Yahnian? And just going, just going to the bathroom was hard. Just getting to the bathroom.
22:02 Danielle LaRock? We joked, you know, we've never once been warm on any of our trips and we weren't gonna start in Hawaii.
22:09 Cassandra Yahnian? No, not there.
22:11 Danielle LaRock? Couldn't be there. I, yeah. And I even was prepared, you know, I brought my jackets and I knew we were doing that activity.
22:20 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
22:21 Danielle LaRock? But even still, it was a shock.
22:23 Cassandra Yahnian? It's such a stark difference though, because at the bottom, it's humid, it's eighty-five degrees, you're in shorts and a tank top and you're sweating. And you're at sea level and then suddenly you are.
22:34 Danielle LaRock? Thirteen thousand plus feet.
22:37 Cassandra Yahnian? It's like ten degrees with wind chill.
22:40 Danielle LaRock? Oh, God. I was like, okay.
22:42 Cassandra Yahnian? You can't see anything.
22:44 Danielle LaRock? Okay, let's go.
22:46 Cassandra Yahnian? I'm having a great time. It was really cool to be up there and.
22:50 Danielle LaRock? Yeah.
22:51 Cassandra Yahnian? Man.
22:52 Danielle LaRock? Yeah.
22:52 Cassandra Yahnian? I'm just picturing them and they're swinging axes and kicking crampons and can't breathe and huffing it. And I'm just like, at the top of the mountain with a van and cold. I'm like, I'm cold. I'm gonna sit in the van.
23:07 Danielle LaRock? We sat in the van. We literally did sit in the van.
23:09 Cassandra Yahnian? Waiting for the sun to come out. We were, all of us, our whole group was like, we're really cold. Let's just sit in the van and wait for the sun to come out.
23:17 Danielle LaRock? Our driver was like, are you sure? You guys just flew here from all different parts of the world.
23:24 Cassandra Yahnian? Take us back to the beach.
23:28 Danielle LaRock? Oh, I was gonna ask something. So would this be categorized as, and I could easily look this up, but type two or type three fun?
23:37 Cassandra Yahnian? I'm gonna guess this is type three fun.
23:39 Danielle LaRock? I think so too.
23:40 Cassandra Yahnian? I'm not even sure if this was fun at all.
23:43 Danielle LaRock? Yep, yeah.
23:44 Cassandra Yahnian? When we get into it. Maybe at this point, it's type, maybe at this point, it's type three fun, but I turn, I think it makes a dramatic turn to no fun was had.
23:54 Danielle LaRock? Okay.
23:55 Cassandra Yahnian? At all.
23:59 Cassandra Yahnian? Last Christmas, Al bought me a record player and since then I've gotten really into collecting records, but I also wanted the whole setup to look beautiful in our home. So when I saw the Jocuna vinyl media unit from Article, I knew exactly where it was going. And when it arrived, I was really impressed with the quality. And it's one of those pieces that's just as functional as it is nice to look at. That's really what Article does so well. They make it easy to create a stylish home with high-quality furniture at a really great price. Their collection includes everything from sofas and sectionals to dining tables, chairs, bedroom furniture, storage, outdoor pieces, and decor with a lot of mid-century modern coastal and Scandi-inspired designs. And everything is curated to work together,
24:41 Cassandra Yahnian? so you can mix and match pieces without feeling like you need to be an interior designer to make your home feel cohesive. If you do want some help, Article even offers free interior design services and their customer care team is available seven days a week. They also offer fast, affordable shipping across the US and Canada, professional assembly options, and a 30-day satisfaction guarantee, so you can feel confident ordering furniture online. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit article.com/NPAD and the discount will automatically be applied at checkout. That's article.com/NPAD for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.
25:27 Cassandra Yahnian? So they're climbing. Progression is pretty slow. The wind picked up and there was powdery snow that was clinging to their clothes and their face, and it was just freezing on them. So eventually, they had this big layer of ice also while they're trekking through this. And by late evening, they were forced to keep climbing in the dark, searching for a safe place to stop. They did not find one until around 10 o'clock that night, and this was after hours of climbing. By then, the temperature had dropped sharply and both men were exhausted. They dug a snow cave for the night, melted snow for water, and ate their final frozen, freeze-dried meal. Their gas supply was nearly gone, but they believed it would be enough to melt
26:11 Cassandra Yahnian? snow once more in the morning. And then from there, they expected to reach the summit and descend all the way back to base camp where food, fuel, and shelter waited for them. Confident in the plan, they turned off their headlamps and slept. When they woke the following morning, they could finally see the terrain they had been climbing in the darkness. To them, it was an Andean nightmare. The snow was soft and unstable, sculpted into deep grooves, fragile overhangs, and wind-formed lips of snow that could collapse without warning and offered no reliable footing. They had heard of these dangerous conditions in the Andes, but neither had ever encountered them firsthand. It was their third day now, and that day brought
26:54 Cassandra Yahnian? some of the most dangerous climbing of their lives. The powdery snow made retreat impossible. They were forced to continue upward through narrow channels where a wrong route choice could trap them beneath impassable walls. Each decision carried the risk of committing them to a dead end with no way down. Despite the hazards, their route choices held. By early afternoon, they reached the top of Westface. They dropped their packs and rested briefly in the sunlight before walking the final distance to the summit. At nearly 21,000 feet, the view was vast and stunning, the surrounding peaks stretching away in every direction. They took photographs and ate chocolate documenting their success, but Joe felt a sense
27:37 Cassandra Yahnian? of anticlimax. The achievement itself was fleeting. They got to the top, it was amazing, it was incredible, they were the first to do it, but he realized that the most dangerous part was ahead of them because, historically speaking, the descent is usually the most dangerous because at that point, you're the most tired. You're
27:56 Danielle LaRock? Yeah, you're fatigued.
27:57 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
27:58 Danielle LaRock? Yep.
27:58 Cassandra Yahnian? You just did this huge thing, and statistically, more climbers die on the way down than they do the way up. So they had kind of reached a halfway point, and they had already been through so much to get there. It was like, oh, we still have this and then some to get down. As they prepared to leave the summit, They noticed clouds building rapidly to the east and they saw that a storm was moving in. The glacier they planned to descend would soon be obscured by snow and clouds. If they were going to make it down safely, they needed to move very quickly. As Simon began leading them down from the summit, the weather deteriorated far more quickly than either of them had anticipated. Snow started falling steadily, driven by a rising wind that rapidly stripped the landscape of depth and contrast.
28:44 Cassandra Yahnian? Within an hour, visibility collapsed into a complete whiteout, erasing the line between sky and ground and turning the mountain into a blank, disorienting void. They stayed roped together and moved with extreme caution. Each man holding the rope in his gloved hand, preparing to arrest a fall if one of them lost their footing. Progress was agonizingly slow. Every step required probing the snow ahead, testing whether it support their weight or give way beneath them. In places, the ridge narrowed sharply with steep drop offs on either side disappearing into the whiteness. At one point, Simon moved ahead to scout the route while Joe waited behind. Suddenly, the rope ripped violently through Joe's hands before snapping taut.
29:29 Cassandra Yahnian? The unmistakable signal that Simon had fallen. Joe shouted into the wind, his voice immediately swallowed by the storm, and waited in mounting dread unsure whether the rope had held or whether he was now tethered to nothing at all. Several long minutes passed before he heard Simon yelling back and followed the sound. Joe climbed carefully toward him until he found his partner shaken but alive. Simon explained that he had stepped forward and dropped straight through a cornice, unclear what had happened until the rope stopped his fall.
30:03 Danielle LaRock? Oh, God.
30:05 Cassandra Yahnian? Like, so they can't see anything.
30:06 Danielle LaRock? Nothing.
30:07 Cassandra Yahnian? Even to take a one step in front of you and you have to test it to see if you're on stable ground. You can't see where there's any drop offs. Simon just fell off the side of a mountain.
30:18 Danielle LaRock? And didn't know until he stopped falling.
30:21 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
30:21 Danielle LaRock? Yeah.
30:22 Cassandra Yahnian? It's horrible, horrible, horrible conditions.
30:25 Cassandra Yahnian? Hours passed with little progress. Night closed in and repeated attempts to dig a snow cave were thwarted by poor snow conditions and failing equipment. Simon's headlamp flickered intermittently and when he removed his gloves to try to fix it, the cold quickly numbed his fingers. By morning, several of them would show clear signs of frostbite. That was the one thing in my avalanche class I remember learning because I, this is something that I really need to work on. If I ever find myself in a situation like this is I feel like I'm totally useless when I have gloves on. So I like to take them off to do small things, but really I need to get the, like the slip
31:05 Cassandra Yahnian? glove to put underneath my gloves or practice doing things with gloves because that was one thing that was mentioned in my avalanche class when I was trying to do something. They were like, keep your gloves on because if you're in a situation like this and you unglueve and now your hand is unusable because you're in these frigid conditions, you just, you might've just made a fatal mistake. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, okay. Okay, I'll get better. I'm like, but I'm useless with gloves on. I like truly, truly am. So I, I need to. Well, just adjust. Yeah. Having like a little slip under there. Like small things to do though. Like same thing, he, it pressing a button on headlamp. When you have gloves on, you can't feel the button. If it's not pressing, it's like, am I doing it?
31:49 Cassandra Yahnian? And so for him, that was like, that was a moment where it's like, I shouldn't have done that. Yeah. So going back to the story, they hunker down for the night. He's showing signs of frostbite already. It's very cold, but eventually they do find shelter, offering far less protection from the wind and cold than they would have liked, but they really had no other option. They melted snow for water, using nearly all their remaining gas and rationed what little food they had left, which was chocolate, dried fruit and a single packet of juicy fruit. Oh, no. What's juice? Juicy fruit is gum.
32:26 Cassandra Yahnian? Interesting choice. They had a single packet of fruit juice, not juicy fruit. Okay. I haven't even thought of juicy fruit in so long. Decades. I haven't seen it on the shelves. Have, yeah. Does it even still exist? Probably. It's got to because bubble tape, is that what it's called? It still exists. Bubble tape. Yeah. I do remember it. Well, Joe believed that they had enough fuel remaining. To make hot drinks in the morning and he assumed that by the following afternoon, they would be back at base camp. Morning arrived with clearer skies, but no real relief. They moved slowly and deliberately aware that even a minor slip could quickly escalate into something catastrophic.
33:11 Cassandra Yahnian? Joe began climbing farther ahead of Simon, gradually increasing the distance between them. At one point, Joe stepped into a hidden crevasse and dropped suddenly before managing to halt himself. He clawed his way back onto solid ground, shaken but uninjured, while Simon watched from behind. The incident only added to their growing frustration. They argued over root choices and pace, irritation sharpening as exhaustion set in, until conversation eventually faded into silence. By late morning, the grim reality of their situation became impossible to ignore. After nearly a full day of effort, they had descended only about a thousand feet. The sun burned against their back, a stark contrast to the storm that they endured the night before,
33:57 Cassandra Yahnian? while powdery snow continued to mask hazards everywhere. Joe continued moving ahead, eventually putting roughly 150 feet between himself and Simon. At this point, I'm picturing they're just so mad, so frustrated. Before they're, they're climbing and hiking in unison and they're just trying to get down and now they're like, just stay away from me. I need to, they're Tensions are high. Tensions are high. They're still attached by rope. There's still that safety there, but they're kind of getting away from each other at this point. They had traveled far enough along the ridge that it was time to descend directly. Joe welcomed the change, hoping that the slope below would finally offer more solid footing. Instead, he found himself standing above a steep ice wall.
34:41 Cassandra Yahnian? He searched briefly for an alternate route but saw none, and so he carefully planted his axes and began lowering himself down. He kicked his crampons into the ice, testing each placement before shifting his weight. He drove one axe deep into the wall and held it firmly, then swung his hammer to set a second placement. The sound it made was wrong. He pulled the tool free and tried again, forcing Into what appeared to be solid ice. Satisfied, he removed the other axe and prepared to transfer his weight. Then, there was a sharp cracking noise and the ice failed. Joe was suddenly airborne. He slammed into the slope below with both legs locked, the impact exploding through his body, and he began sliding uncontrollably,
35:25 Cassandra Yahnian? accelerating towards a steep drop. He screamed as he lost control until the rope snapped tight and retched him into a violent stop. Pain tore through his thigh and knee. When he tried to move, there was a sickening grinding of the bone against bone. He looked down and saw his right leg twisted into an unnatural zigzag.
35:46 Danielle LaRock? Oh, that's a shape you never want to see a body part in.
35:50 Cassandra Yahnian? Especially a leg.
35:52 Danielle LaRock? Yeah.
35:53 Cassandra Yahnian? Your knees just don't really do anything. You know, you got the bend and that's.
35:57 Danielle LaRock? It bends one way and one way only.
36:00 Cassandra Yahnian? Zigzag is not that way.
36:02 Danielle LaRock? Right. Um, did you say how far the, like, what is the distance between them in this rope? I'm just trying to imagine the length of this rope, like how far apart they are. Do you know?
36:17 Cassandra Yahnian? They were about like a hundred and fifty feet apart from each other.
36:21 Danielle LaRock? Okay.
36:21 Cassandra Yahnian? It's a long rope. Yeah. Tears filled his eyes not only from pain, but the immediate understanding of what this meant. Simon appeared above him, having followed the rope once it went slack and took in the scene quickly. The shattered leg, their position high on the mountain, and the fact that Joe could no longer protect either himself or his partner from a fall. And nearly the entire descent still lay ahead. They've only made it a couple thousand feet at this point. And remember, it's a twenty one thousand, they're over, they're above twenty one thousand feet. They still have to get all the way there. They're still on the face of the mountain, and now he has a shattered leg.
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37:37 Cassandra Yahnian? For a moment after the fall, neither of them spoke. Joe stood on his left leg, shaking, staring at the twisted shape of his right knee as nausea rose in his throat, his mind racing ahead to the inevitable conclusion that settled over him with frightening clarity. At this altitude, on this terrain, a broken leg was not something you recovered from. It was something you died from slowly through exposure, dehydration, and exhaustion. Simon descended carefully to Joe's position, following the rope once attention eased. And when he reached him, he took in the scene with a quick practice assessment. The leg was obviously shattered, the knee grotesquely swollen and misshapen,
38:18 Cassandra Yahnian? and of course, they still had miles and miles of terrain between them and any possibility of help. Joe considered lying. For a brief moment, he thought about telling Simon that it was not that bad, that maybe it was just a spring or something he could walk off. But the grinding sensation when he shifted his weight made that impossible. He told Simon the truth. He had fallen, and his leg was very clearly broken. Joe watched Simon's face change as he processed what he was seeing. There was a flicker of pity there, and something else Joe recognized immediately: a kind of emotional distancing. The look people give when they believe an outcome is inevitable. It terrified him. He knew Simon was thinking the same thing he was thinking:
39:00 Cassandra Yahnian? that there was no realistic way to get an injured man down from this mountain without putting both of their lives at risk. Simon said very little. He gave Joe a couple of painkillers. And began working through the problem in silence. They were no longer two climbers moving together towards a shared goal. They were now in a survival scenario where every decision carried the potential to end both of their lives. Joe leaned heavily on his ice axe as they began moving again. Simon breaking trail while Joe limped behind trying to suppress cries of pain each time his knee twisted or caught in the snow. Neither of them spoke about the obvious truth hanging between them. That the fastest and safest way for Simon to survive would be to leave Joe behind.
39:44 Cassandra Yahnian? Joe was acutely aware of his own vulnerability and found himself afraid to ask for help. As if speaking might push Simon towards the decision that he feared most. After more than two hours of painfully slow progress, Simon finally asked Joe how he was holding up. Joe told him he felt slightly better, though the words rang hollow even as he said them. With effort, he acknowledged what they both knew. Admitting that he could not see how he would make it down the mountain on his own. Simon did not respond directly, but instead focused on the terrain ahead where the slopes deepened and the only viable route down involved a series of repels. They stopped and discussed a plan.
40:24 Cassandra Yahnian? Simon would dig a bucket seat into the snow, carving out a crude but functional anchor that he could brace himself in while lowering Joe down the mountain. Once Joe was lowered as far as the rope allowed, Simon would then climb down to meet him and they would repeat the process. It was an improvised solution, risky and exhausting, but it was the only option that they could think of that offered any chance of survival for Joe in particular. But was the safest option for also Simon to try and help him out as well. They tied their two 150 foot ropes together to create a longer line, knowing that the not joining them would not pass through the belay device.
41:02 Cassandra Yahnian? This meant that halfway through each lowering, Joe would have to take his weight on his good leg while Simon unclip the rope, reset the device and clip it back in. It was one of the most dangerous moments of the entire process as any slip during the transfer could send both of them plunging down the mountain. Ring, Joe tried instinctively to keep his feet from touching the snow, an unnatural position that left him swinging awkwardly as Simon controlled the descent from above. Whenever his crampons caught or his injured leg twisted unexpectedly, white-hot pain shot through his body and he struggled to keep from screaming. By the time he reached the end of the first rope, his entire body was trembling.
41:45 Cassandra Yahnian? As Simon adjusted the rope at the knot, Joe balanced precariously on his left leg, digging a seat for Simon to use when he came down. Despite the pain, a surge of hope ran through him. In a short span of time, he had been lowered far more quickly than he ever could have descended on foot. For the first time since the fall, it felt possible, however remote, that he might actually make it off the mountain alive. They repeated the process again and again, descending steadily despite the deteriorating weather around them. Clouds rolled in, the wind strengthened, and the temperature dropped, but they pressed on, aware that stopping meant exposure without food or a reliable way to make water. They were running on borrowed time.
42:28 Cassandra Yahnian? As darkness approached, Simon increased the pace of the lowerings, trying to get them down as quickly as possible. The faster Joe moved, the more violently his injured knee was jarred against the slope, and several times it twisted backwards with a sickening crunch that made him sob in pain.
42:45 Danielle LaRock? I'm surprised he hasn't passed out.
42:47 Cassandra Yahnian? Me too. I feel like at this point he's running on pure adrenaline.
42:51 Danielle LaRock? Yeah.
42:51 Cassandra Yahnian? It's like, this is my life. Every time, I feel like there's just so many shots of pain and adrenaline and like, this is your only way of survival. Also trying to keep Simon in mind too. You know, he's digging these bucket seats for him so he can climb down, sit, re-anchor himself, re-repell, you know, like Simon's doing a lot.
43:10 Danielle LaRock? The most.
43:11 Cassandra Yahnian? The most. Yeah. He just took on a huge job and I think also, everything that Simon's doing. It just paints a picture of how good of a climber he truly is as well. To have all of these techniques and.
43:25 Danielle LaRock? Yeah, it shows cases his ability as a climber. Um, and to work under immense pressure and decision making and all that.
43:33 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah. And it seems like he wasn't even saying too much either. He's just like, okay, let's, this is the plan. Let's do it. And was just kind of going through the motions and trying to get him out.
43:43 Danielle LaRock? Yep.
43:43 Cassandra Yahnian? Where he easily could have been like, wait here, I'll come back for rescue. Even though that I say that easily he could have done that, but that would have been a death sentence. Essentially. So he was, it sounds like he was doing his best. So his leg twists and makes this horrible crunching sound. And he is sobbing in pain and he shouts up to Simon to slow down, but his words were torn away by the wind. Um, it was so windy that Simon couldn't hear anything that he was saying or hear him crying. Simon, for his part, had begun to shut out Joe's cries entirely. And it wasn't out of cruelty. It was just out of necessity. He's like, I know you're in pain, but we gotta go.
44:23 Cassandra Yahnian? It was a survival technique. So he kind of just, even if he did hear him crying, he wasn't really paying much attention to it. His fingers were going numb from the cold as he held the rope. And he knew that if he slowed down too much, they might both be caught on the face overnight with no shelter and no water. Speed, however brutal it was, felt like their only chance. Cause they still have to find shelter. They're on this ice face. It's like, we can't stay here for the night. It's, it's dark. Weather is getting worse. We gotta go. Joe dug another seat in the snow as Simon prepared for what they both believed would be one of the final descents. That was when everything went wrong.
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45:41 Cassandra Yahnian? As Simon began lowering Joe once more, Joe sensed immediately that something was wrong. Instead of being eased down the slope in a controlled descent, he began to slide, his body accelerating as the angle beneath him steepened and the snow hardened into slick ice. He tried instinctively to slow himself, dragging an ax and then a cramp on, but neither found their spot. And when he shouted up to Simon to stop, the wind tore the sound away before it could reach him. Within moments, the ground disappeared beneath his feet altogether, and his body swung outward into the empty space before his rope caught, and he was lowered over an overhang.
46:21 Cassandra Yahnian? So at this point, his rope just caught right after he goes over this big snow lip overhang. And now he's just hanging there while snow pours over him from this overhang. And he's slowly spinning on this rope and just hanging midair.
46:40 Danielle LaRock? This is like reminiscent of your lightning strike episode.
46:44 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah, yeah, a little bit.
46:46 Danielle LaRock? Just that position of just hanging. And I think, wasn't that guy deceased? That you were talking about? Or maybe he lived later? I don't remember. It's like years ago.
46:55 Cassandra Yahnian? Well, there was the upside down.
46:57 Danielle LaRock? That's what I'm thinking of.
46:59 Cassandra Yahnian? He lived.
47:00 Danielle LaRock? Okay.
47:00 Cassandra Yahnian? He was alive. Yeah, so he's just hanging here and the rock, the ice face is, it feels like it's almost close enough to touch, but he just can't reach it. So he also can't re-anchor himself either.
47:15 Danielle LaRock? Okay.
47:16 Cassandra Yahnian? Below him, the crevasse opened into darkness. Its depth impossible to judge. And when Simon continued lowering him unaware of what happened, Joe descended further until he reached the knot tying the two ropes together. The rope jerked three times, the signal Simon used for Joe to take his weight off the line, so the belay device could be reset. And Joe felt a surge of disbelief and panic as he realized there was nowhere for him to stand, no ledge, no slope, nothing but open air. So Simon doesn't even realize yet. He's like, all right, reset. You're good. Because he's over this overhang, which I imagine for Simon, kind of like made the rope tight there and took the brunt of.
48:02 Cassandra Yahnian? That fall, so he didn't feel
48:06 Cassandra Yahnian? the tug from where he was because this overhang kind of caught on it. And now he's just hanging there and Simon's like, all right, do your thing. Like, we're almost there. And he's just hanging midair with nowhere to go.
48:18 Danielle LaRock? And no way to communicate his predicament.
48:20 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah, and obviously he can't undo the rope.
48:22 Danielle LaRock? Right, right.
48:24 Cassandra Yahnian? Cause he's hanging in the middle of the air. From above, Simon could feel Joe's weight still pulling steadily at his harness and assumed that his partner was struggling to regain balance or carve a stance. So he waited, giving him time to sort it out. Hanging in the cold, Joe understood that there was only one option left to him. He would have to climb back up the rope. Under normal circumstances, it would have been a simple maneuver using the loops that they have. A lot of ropes have those little loops that you can just grab onto and each spot has
48:59 Cassandra Yahnian? to hoist yourself up and you can put your feet in them and stuff. And this was something he had done countless times, but his hands were now numb. And of course, he only has the one leg and he's tired, he's fatigued. So he fumbled for the first loop and fought to attach it to the rope. His fingers refusing to work and minutes passing as he forced the knot into place with a combination of effort, frustration, and his teeth when his grip failed him. When he reached for the second loop, his finger slipped and he watched helplessly as it dropped away, tumbling silently into the blackness below and vanishing from sight.
49:34 Danielle LaRock? Wait, what did he drop?
49:35 Cassandra Yahnian? He dropped, so he's attaching these loops.
49:38 Danielle LaRock? Okay.
49:38 Cassandra Yahnian? That he can climb up and he just dropped one of them.
49:41 Danielle LaRock? Okay, okay.
49:42 Cassandra Yahnian? In that instance, he knew that his last chance of climbing back up had disappeared with it. He slumped on the rope, exhausted, shaking, and acutely aware of what this meant for both of them. If he could not get off the rope, Simon would eventually lose his grip or be pulled from the collapsing snowseed above and they would both fall. The only question left was how long would it take for it to happen? Joe screamed into the wind, cursing the mountain, his shattered leg, and the absurd The brutality of the timing, but there was nothing more that he could do. He hung there, suspended between ice and darkness, waiting. Above him, Simon sat in the bucket seat he had carved into the slope, feeling the full weight of Joe's body dragging relentlessly at his waist
50:27 Cassandra Yahnian? as the snow beneath him slowly compacted and crumbled. His hands were numb, his legs trembling with exhaustion, and communication was impossible. He waited, trying again and again to think of a way to pass the knot through the belay device, but every option collapsed under the reality of the terrain and his fault and his failing strength. Minutes stretched on, then longer still, and as his feet began to slip and the pull of his harness grew more insistent, the realization settled over him with brutal clarity that he could not hold Joe indefinitely and he could also not haul him back up. If he stayed tied to him, it was clear now that they were both going to die. He reached into his pack, found the knife,
51:12 Cassandra Yahnian? and struggled to open it with stiff fingers, the metal briefly sticking to his lips as he freed the blade. He placed it against the rope and applied pressure, and the line parted instantly. The sudden release sending him sprawling back into the snow as the weight vanished from his harness. He lay there for a moment, stunned, staring at the severed end of the rope, knowing that he had almost certainly just killed his climbing partner. Below, Joe felt the rope snap free and for a fraction of a second, experienced nothing at all before gravity reclaimed him and he dropped into the void beneath the overhang. Simon listened, straining for any sound,
51:54 Cassandra Yahnian? carried back up the face, any shout, any impact, any sound at all. But nothing came. There was no movement, no voice, and in his mind, there was only one conclusion. He had just killed his friend. As the silence stretched on, Simon became aware of everything else all at once. The mountain beneath his feet, the cold creeping deeper into his numb hands, and the weakness settling into his legs. He was still high on the face, night was closing in around him. He was alone now, with no rope below him and no clear way down. And little did Simon know, as he left his position to find an alternative way down and left Joe behind, that Joe... Had landed and survived the fall.
52:39 Cassandra Yahnian? But with Simon abandoning him and Joe left alone at the bottom of a crevasse is where I leave you all for this week. And we will pick up next Monday to find out what happens to the two of them.
52:53 Danielle LaRock? Wow. Well, I'm on the edge of my seat. That is intense. That is so intense. Wow.
53:01 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
53:02 Danielle LaRock? I can see why this is so highly requested because it doesn't get more serious than making a life or death decision for not only yourself, but for a friend or family member or someone you're with, you know, so.
53:16 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah. But when you're sitting there and you're losing your footing, you're on a, you're on ice face. And it's like, we're either both going down or one of us is going down.
53:25 Danielle LaRock? It's just the no, and I know there's no communication possible. It's just the decision of like, well, this has to be done. And just kind of the assumption that or hope that this other person would understand that decision because they're very well aware that it's the only one to be made.
53:41 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
53:41 Danielle LaRock? Like I just, I, I think I would at least, I'm not trying to be in his head or anything, but in my mind, I envisioned myself if I'm in his spot, just being like whispering like, I am so sorry. And maybe he did. Maybe he did think that. You know, I've just like, God, I please forgive me.
53:59 Cassandra Yahnian? And I think in that moment too, it was almost a survival moment where he, it was almost an out of body experience where his mind was like, the only way you're going to survive is if you get rid of this rope attached to you. So I feel like it was almost this out of body experience where he grabs the knife. He unsheathes it and he just holds it again. And the rope was so taut that it just snapped under the pressure of a knife. Like it's not like he had to saw it or anything like that. It was just like, he held it up, pushed against it and it just, and.
54:31 Danielle LaRock? Whew. Wow. Well, unlike the rest of you suckers, I can hear part two very soon because we're recording it.
54:40 Cassandra Yahnian? Now.
54:41 Danielle LaRock? Now.
54:45 Danielle LaRock? Uh, cool. Um, okay. I do just to end on like a just something I couldn't help but think about it when you're explaining this story because it has clearly were set in the space of the land of crevasses. Do you remember a time not so long ago?
55:02 Cassandra Yahnian? I sure do.
55:03 Danielle LaRock? Where baby Danielle and baby Cassie thought that crevices and crevasses were just different ways of saying the same thing.
55:11 Cassandra Yahnian? I do.
55:12 Danielle LaRock? We're like, yeah, it's like pecan or pecan, tomato, tomato. What?
55:18 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah, you could hear that full episode. I think it was your Denali episode. It was like our third episode we ever did. And you guys continued to listen to us after that.
55:28 Danielle LaRock? Yeah, you did. And that's your fault.
55:31 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah, it is your fault.
55:37 Danielle LaRock? Life is about growing. I know. And that's why I wanted to say it, not just to poke fun at ourselves, but even though that is fun to do from time to time. It's very humbling, you know, you have to look back at where you came from, back in the crevice to really
55:51 Cassandra Yahnian? Made it.
55:52 Danielle LaRock? In the crevasse, you know?
55:53 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
55:54 Danielle LaRock? And we have persevered.
55:56 Cassandra Yahnian? And to be clear, he's in a crevasse, not a crevice.
55:59 Danielle LaRock? Right.
56:00 Cassandra Yahnian? Which we know now.
56:01 Danielle LaRock? And you know as well, if it wasn't made abundantly clear before. I just remember someone correcting us very politely. They're like,
56:10 Cassandra Yahnian? Which is very nice of them.
56:11 Danielle LaRock? So nice. In today's climate, we would have been burned at the stake.
56:16 Cassandra Yahnian? And maybe rightfully so.
56:19 Danielle LaRock? Yeah.
56:22 Danielle LaRock? Okay, well, I will see you, Cassie, in like 20 minutes. Everybody else, we'll see you next week.
56:29 Cassandra Yahnian? In the meantime, enjoy the view.
56:31 Danielle LaRock? But watch your back.
56:32 Cassandra Yahnian? Bye, everyone.
56:33 Danielle LaRock? See ya. Thank you for joining us again this week. If you love National Park After Dark and want to hear exclusive bonus stories, join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Patreon subscribers have access to our National Park After Dark Book Club, live streams, Discord, and much more. If you prefer to watch our episodes, video episodes are now available on YouTube. If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platform. And to follow along with all our adventures, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and X at National Park After Dark.
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Previous Trail Tales 84 Next The Cost of Survival: The Cordillera Huayhuash Reserved Zone (Part 2) Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated