THESE are the CHARACTER Traits Of Irresistible People | John Maxwell

John C. Maxwell is a #1 New York Times bestselling author, speaker, coach and leader who has sold more than 34 million books in fifty languages. He is the founder of Maxwell Leadership—the leadership development organization created to expand the reach of his principles of helping people lead powerful, positive change. Maxwell’s books and programs have been translated into 70 languages and have been used to train tens of millions of leaders in every nation. His work also includes that of the Maxwell Leadership Foundation and EQUIP, non-profit organizations that have impacted millions of adults and youth across the globe through values-based, people- centric leadership training. As an exclusive offer to the Lewis’s Podcast audience, John’s team is offering a limited-time discount on the book plus free shipping. Go to www.16lawsofcommunication.com and use Promo Code LEWIS at checkout. Order John’s book, The 16 Laws of Communication - https://amzn.to/3QQ1QoiIn this episode you will learn,The character traits and habits that make people irresistible, understanding what draws others towards them effortlessly. The essential qualities that set exceptional leaders apart from their average counterparts, gaining insights into the traits that drive exceptional leadership. The significance of vulnerability in effective leadership and how leaders can effectively balance vulnerability with maintaining their authority. Clear distinctions between magnetic leadership and toxic leadership. Key principles and strategies in leadership that are often overlooked or underrated, providing you with a deeper understanding of what truly drives successful leadership. For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1500For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960Want more Irresistible Traits content? Vanessa Van Edwards: https://link.chtbl.com/1231-podDr. Ramani Durvasula: https://link.chtbl.com/1195-pod & https://link.chtbl.com/1196-podLori Gottlieb: https://link.chtbl.com/1191-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Lewis Howes?

  My friend, I am such a big believer that your mindset is everything. It can really dictate if your life has meaning, has value, and you feel fulfilled, or if you feel exhausted, drained, and like you're never going to be enough. Our brand new book, The Greatness Mindset, just hit the New York Times Bestseller back-to-back weeks. And I'm so excited to hear from so many of you who've bought the book, who've read it and finished it already, and are getting incredible results from the lessons in the book. If you haven't got a copy yet, you'll learn how to build a plan for greatness through powerful exercises and toolkits designed to propel your life forward. This is the book I wish I had when I was 20, struggling, trying to figure out life. 10 years ago, at 30, trying to figure out transitions in my life,

• 0:45Lewis Howes?

  and a book I'm glad I have today for myself. Make sure to get a copy at lewishouse.com/2023mindset to get your copy today. Again, lewishouse.com/2023mindset to get a copy today. Also, the book is on Audible now, so you can get it on audiobook as well. And don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.

• 1:10John Maxwell?

  So I've studied success, and success is kind of about me. But significance is about others. And here's the difference, I think. I think successful people that live for themselves get unhappy very quickly. But Lewis, I've never met an unhappy person that lived a life of significance. The moment that you began to try to add value to people, and you're in the game because you want to be a positive factor in people's lives, and you really are there to help them, I think that's where deep satisfaction comes from.

• 1:45Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 2:09Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. I am very excited about our guest. We have the world's leading leadership coach, John Maxwell in the house. Good to see you, sir.

• 2:19John Maxwell?

  Great to be with you, Lewis. I'm very excited about our time together and looking forward to this a lot.

• 2:26Lewis Howes?

  Very excited. I've obviously, I've connected with you before virtually on a call before in the past, but we've never met in person, but I know it's going to happen soon. But we were just talking about the ties we have, both from Central Ohio, both big Ohio State football fans. Your wife grew up in the same essentially neighborhood that I grew up in, in Delaware, Ohio. And you've been of massive service and impact for the world for really the last 40, 50 years. And all of your books, all the work, all the teachings, the trainings you've done, I think 34, 35 million copies sold. It's really inspiring. And I want to talk about leadership and communication.

• 3:07Lewis Howes?

  But the first thing I want to dive into today is actually about marriage and relationships. And the biggest lesson you learned about leadership from mistakes you've made in marriage. I'm curious if you'd be willing to talk about that first.

• 3:24John Maxwell?

  Oh yeah, I can talk about that. You know, Margaret and I have been married for 54 years. Okay? So let's start there.

• 3:32Lewis Howes?

  54.

• 3:33John Maxwell?

  54, yeah. And my parents were married for 60, for 65. And you know, then, no, I'm wrong. They were married for 68 years. And so dad lived up to, dad worked, my father worked full time through his 95th year and passed away at 98. But when you think of marriage,

• 4:00John Maxwell?

  there are several leadership lessons I've learned from it, but one of them is the fact that

• 4:06John Maxwell?

  You both have to give a hundred percent. It's it's not fifty fifty. You hear people talk about, well, let's do fifty fifty. They're talking about equality. I know in a in a relationship. But I I I think that marriage is too hard to be fifty fifty. It's got to be a hundred hundred. Yeah, it's, you know. Everything worthwhile. Everything worthwhile is uphill. It's it's all uphill. Everything worthwhile. And and, you know, if if you have a great dream, it's uphill. If you have a great marriage, it's uphill. And you can't go uphill fifty percent. You gotta it's it's you gotta be a hundred percent. And so it there's a commitment that you make to each other.

• 4:49John Maxwell?

  And it has nothing to do with adversity, difficulty. I I mean, every marriage has hard days, deserts. But it, you know, people that get divorced don't get divorced because they had greater problems than people that didn't get divorced. It's just a different mindset. It's a, you know, it's there's a different attitude toward it. I think that makes a makes a huge difference. I think that. I think it's not only one hundred and one hundred, but I think that respect is essential in in a marriage. I I learned a long time ago that, you know, when you lose respect for somebody, you lose energy and effort in in the cause.

• 5:32John Maxwell?

  And so I I think I think it's all about giving the other person space to develop their own giftedness. You know, you know, you've been to every wedding ceremony where where they take and blow out two, you know, they light the middle candle and blow out the two. And I always want to say, no, no, no, don't blow out those candles. Those you don't you don't lose your individuality when you get married. Good Lord, you want to keep your own candle lid. You you have gifts that pertain to you, and you want to maximize those gifts. I think there's a respect and appreciation for allowing that person space to develop themselves and not try to make them conform to. Here's what I am, and here's what I need, and here's what I want.

• 6:13John Maxwell?

  You know, the reason that dating works so well is you always think about the other person first. That's why that's why it works well. I mean, think about it. What hey, you're going on a date, what what can I get her some flowers, take her to a good restaurant, you know, make sure I seed her, you know what I'm saying? And it's it's all about her. It's all about her. And then what happens when people get, Lewis, when they get married? It's all, it's all about me, you know, when, when you go take care of mine is and, and that's why dating flourishes and marriage sometimes flounders. It's, you know, it, it doesn't, uh, you know, it doesn't work that way. You, you, you just have to really always be focused on it's all about the other person adding value to them.

• 6:51Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 6:52John Maxwell?

  Well, one, one quick, one quick story. It's not, it's, it's a family story more than that is I, I, I've written one book out of my, I think I've written, I don't know, eighty eight, eighty nine, something like that. But anyway, I've written one book on parenting. And, uh, and so I, I decided to write a book called, called Breakthrough Parenting. And, uh, I wrote it and Margaret gave me a lot of input. But anyway, what's hysterical is, uh, talk about timing and stupidity. I wrote the book when both of my children were teenagers. Now, what, what's wrong with this picture? What's wrong? You're writing a book on breakthrough parenting and your kids are going through those teenage years where they're doing their own thing. And I called the publisher up and I say, wow,

• 7:37John Maxwell?

  you know, this is not working. I, I want, I, I wanted to get out of doing the book. I'd already signed the contract and I said, can I change the title to like Break Down Parenting or, you know, hey, how about Break Up Parenting? Can we, you know, cause we're, you know, we may get divorced through this whole process. You know, we're having everything but a breakthrough. But I, but you know, and of course today our children are great. We have great, we have wonderful grandchildren, but, but, but, but it, it, there's a price. It, it, it's an effort. It's an energy. It's, it isn't going to come to you. It, it isn't going to always be good and work out for you. You, you have to just be committed to, to each other and, and, and, and for the long haul and, and,

• 8:18John Maxwell?

  and, and climb, hey, climb the hill. It's, it, you don't coast to greatness. No, no one ever drifted to a desired vocation. You know what I'm saying? So you don't coast to that. You have to, you have to climb to it.

• 8:30Lewis Howes?

  And what about fifty plus years in marriage? Are you, are you still climbing the mountain of that? Are you able to not have things more automated and systematic, but is it a constant daily focus and attention? I don't like to call it, you know, uh, hard work, but more intention, attention and focus on the relationship?

• 8:52John Maxwell?

  Well, I, I, well, you, you still have to pay a close attention to the relationship, but I, I, at this stage, we know each other very well. And there's something beautiful about knowing the idiosyncrasies. And, you know, there's, I have, I have just things that, you know, that I'm not good at, or I don't do well. And, and, you know, there comes to be a time where you just kind of, it's okay. You know, in the beginning, everything's important. In the end, only the important things are important. That stuff gets weighted out in the process. And so, to say it's easier, I would say it's, it's easier in the fact that you now have gone through the battles,

• 9:37John Maxwell?

  and you've pretty well have succeeded in the battle. So, you pretty well know what victory looks like, and you kind of stay on that side of victory and winning. And, and so, it does get, to say automatic is not the right word, but it becomes more natural, maybe? Is there a better word?

• 9:56Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. Organic, natural. I love that. I'm curious, you are, you know, you're the world's greatest leadership trainer, expert, coach, you know, authority. And I'm curious, what has your wife taught you about leadership that you didn't know about beforehand?

• 10:14John Maxwell?

  Well, she taught me that no matter if you're the world's greatest leadership expert, that doesn't mean your wife wants to follow all the time. Hey, let me tell you, I move masses. It's, hey, sometimes I look at my family and say, nobody's moving here. You know what I'm saying? I tell them, I say, I say, people pay me, people pay me big bucks to go and give them strategy and advice. And, you know, and I start doing that with my own kids, or, you know, my family, they kind of look at me and say, really? I mean, do we have to, we have to listen to this? And so, there's a, there's a, there's a level

• 10:53John Maxwell?

  setting in a relationship that should be, really, you know. My, my definition of success, this'll work.

• 11:02John Maxwell?

  When I was in my middle thirties, everything was going pretty good for me. Books started really selling. I was pretty much in demand as a speaker. Anyway.

• 11:12John Maxwell?

  And then I saw a lot of people who are successful not doing well, kind of just kind of going off the rails. And you'd say, good luck. What happened to them? So I, I, I spent some time in my middle thirties and I said, I have to get my own personal definition of success. I, I, I can't handle, I can't put somebody else's coat on. I got ahead of my own.

• 11:34John Maxwell?

  And so I came to the conclusion, Louis, that for me, that success can be defined in the fact that those who know me the best, love and respect me the most.

• 11:47John Maxwell?

  And that really works. Just work. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, in, in fact, put it, I mean, think about it. If people who don't know you well, like you better than people who know you well? That's a major statement about something about's gone wrong with the character of a person. Hmm. You know, but when, when, but when the people who know you best and, you know, love and respect you the most, I mean, they, they know me, they know my, you know, they know all the dumb stuff I've done and all my failures and all my faults and, you know, my shortcomings, my humanist. Several years ago, I accidentally took a gun through an airport. Yeah, I mean, literally, and, and it was, and not only would I take the gun through the air. I fly private most of the time, but I, I had gotten a gun from a friend.

• 12:30John Maxwell?

  I'm not even, I'm not even a gun person really. But, but, but they said that they thought my wife ought to have a gun since I was gone a lot. And so they had, and, and my pilots, my two pilots loved it and they, one of them was a gun guy and he loaded it. And I stuck it in my briefcase and forgot about it, went, went commercially. And it was a loaded gun that went through the airport and, and they saw it, of course. It's a long story. I, I, I did a whole teaching off of, you know, basically stupid hurts. But anyway, uh, but so, so I, I took, tried to, I didn't do it intentionally, but you know, took a gun to the airport. My kids loved it. Cause they said, they said dad has lowered the bar of stupid so low now.

• 13:15John Maxwell?

  That no matter what we do, you know, so the family household word has been when somebody asks I'm stupid, they say, well, at least you didn't take a gun to an airport.

• 13:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's amazing.

• 13:27John Maxwell?

  But that's so fun. You know, when you're with the people that know you well and they love you and you can have fun together and you know, then you've done well.

• 13:34Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful. Now, I'm curious, John, you've been around a lot of irresistible people, a lot of magnetic people. I would say you're one of those individuals. You've been around a lot of leaders who are extremely successful financially. They've generated and amassed a lot of opportunities, whether it be monetarily or non-monetarily. And you've also been around people who have wealth and are unhappy internally or lack peace. And you've also been around people who have lots of wealth and are at peace with themselves and have harmonious relationships. I'm curious, what would you say are the character traits

• 14:13Lewis Howes?

  or the main habits of magnetic irresistible people who also have inner peace?

• 14:21John Maxwell?

  Great question. I think I have the answer to that because I've thought a lot about it. First of all, I know and you know this too. You're in this world. You know, a lot of highly successful people. I know a lot of unhappy, successful people. I mean, and you look at what they have and you sit there and say, why are they unhappy? I mean, they literally have anything that they truly want in life, but they're not very happy. So I've studied success and success is kind of about me. You know, it's kind of like what I've done. You know, so you, you know, I've sold 35 million books, 88 books written, you know, spoken in a hundred countries, spoken 13,000 times. Okay, it's about me.

• 15:08John Maxwell?

  But significance is about others. And here's the difference, I think. I think successful people that live for themselves get unhappy very quickly. I, I, I think that they find out that, um, that they're not enough, that they, they, they were created to, to help others and add value to other people. So I've met a lot of unhappy, successful people, thinking of success, it's all about me. Significance is, is all about others. So it's a focus. I, I've met a lot of unhappy, successful people, but Lewis, I've never met an unhappy person that lived a life of significance. I, I have never met one. I, I, I'm sure there's

• 15:53John Maxwell?

  somebody out there that is. But what, the moment that you began to, um, at, try to add value to people and, and, um, you're in the game because you want to be a, a positive factor in people's lives and you really are there to help them. I think that's where real fulfillment, I, I, I think that's where deep satisfaction comes from. And so I, I'm in a, I, I live in a significant life. I've, I've had some success, but success doesn't really interest me that very much. I, significance interests me a lot. So everything I do, basically at this stage of my life, I'm 76, people say, well, you're still writing, you're still traveling, you're still, you know, working and, you know, I have seven

• 16:38John Maxwell?

  companies and, and, and yeah, yeah, I am. And well, when are you going to retire? Well, I, I, I'm, I'm not going to retire. I don't, I don't have a desire to retire because why, why would you retire when you're helping people and making a difference? I mean, I live on two golf courses. But there has to be something bigger, Lewis, than what is my tea time today? Come on, is that, is that as good as it, I mean, is that as good as it's going to get? I don't, you know? I think that, I think you can get unhappy very quickly when, when all you're doing is trying to take care of yourself and you're not really helping and serving people. So to me, that is the difference of, of, you know, when you see, when I see successful

• 17:23John Maxwell?

  people that are, live a life of significant, I find them very fulfilled.

• 17:29John Maxwell?

  But I find people, I mean, if you're just living for yourself, how much is enough? I mean, how many cars do you have to have? How many homes? How many meals can you eat? I mean, how many cars can you drive? I mean, after a while, it just, you just realize that if you live for yourself, it's never enough. And if you live for others, it's more than enough.

• 17:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. I love it. I'm all about service. I just think the more in service we can be and the more we make our mission about serving and helping others.

• 17:55John Maxwell?

  Yes.

• 17:56Lewis Howes?

  And that can be your, your family, your communities, your, the career you're in to start. And then as you have more, how can you contribute more? I think that's, that's what brings me a lot of fulfillment and joy. And I'm curious about, you know, those that you've really taught and trained and you coached some of the greatest leaders in the world, business, sports, you know, all these different things. What are the habits that make them irresistible and able to manifest and create more in their life? Obviously, the quality and the intention of service and helping others and giving is a big intention that they have that brings them joy. But what would you say are those qualities that just make them so, that people want to follow them? That people want to give them opportunities?

• 18:41Lewis Howes?

  That people were like, things fall in their lap? What makes them so irresistible?

• 18:46John Maxwell?

  I, I think, uh, having a, having a joy about life and, and about people.

• 18:55John Maxwell?

  I was, I was having a conversation one time with a very successful person, very funny person, comedian. And, and, and he said, you know, it's hard to be funny if you don't have fun. He says funny comes out of fun. And that made perfect sense to me. And, and, and when he said that, I hadn't thought about it until he told me, but I thought, that's exactly right. If you have fun in life and you have joy in life, then, then you, you become, you begin to be irresistible. You know, uh, are you a lifter or are you a leaner? You know, I mean, it's, Alamee Wilcox wrote that poem, what was it? Said, I haven't said this for a long time, I say, there, there are two kinds of people on earth today, just two kinds of people.

• 19:40John Maxwell?

  The more I say, not the good, the bad, for it's well understood, the good are half bad, the bad are half good. No, there's two kinds of people in life, I mean, is the people who lift and the people who lean. And honestly, if, if, you know, if you are a plus in people's lives, they want to be around you. You know, I, I, how do you, how do you teach relationships? I'm either, I'm either a plus in people's lives or I'm a minus in people's lives. I, I, I'm either adding joy to them and intentionally being kind and thing, or, or else I'm, you know, some people are just, they get up and they say, who's going to make my day today?

• 20:25John Maxwell?

  You know, it, Robert Louis Stevens said, I love this quote, he said, "I consider the success of my day based on the seeds I sow, not the harvest I reap." And, and what he understood was if you're just constantly sowing seeds, the harvest is automatic. My gosh, I mean, I'm reaping a huge harvest today. I'm looking at it. In fact, it's embarrassing to me. And I look at it, I think, how did this all happen? Well, I know how it happened. I've, I've sown seeds all my life. And so, you know, if I decide to be a plus for you, you're going to want me to be around you. And if I decide that I'm going to be a minus and, and, and you're, I'm going to, you know, expect you every day to quote, make my day, I'm going to drag on you. And, and, and there's nothing contagious

• 21:10John Maxwell?

  about a selfish person. I mean, it really isn't. And, and, but there's something very contagious about a, a, a happy, joyful, giving individual who, Yes. who, who really loves to add value to others. So I, I mean, I think, I, I, and I think, by the way, I think people, um, Dan Ryland, who was on my staff one time, gave me a great definition of charisma. He said, "It's not a personality. People with charisma..."

• 21:43John Maxwell?

  Their interest is in other people and people that lack charisma, their interest is in themselves. And I think that's very true. I think we sometimes assign things to personality instead of intentionality. And I think any person that wants to, they can immediately make a change there. They can say, look, I'm going to change my behavior here. I'm going to serve and add value to people and quit being such a drag in people's lives. But I think people that are minus Lewis, I don't think they, most of them know it. I don't think they realize it. I certainly don't think that they're intentional. They can't be intentional. Surely, surely people don't get up and just say, I want to screw somebody's day up.

• 22:28Lewis Howes?

  Right. It's more unconscious, yeah.

• 22:30John Maxwell?

  Yeah, I think, but I think if you are a plus in people's lives, I think it's very conscious. Because I don't think it's natural. I think it's natural for us to be selfish. So if I'm going to associate and give and serve, I think I go against what's natural. And so therefore, successful people, they develop habits that may not be natural, but are greatly beneficial.

• 23:00Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. It's interesting, I'll share a quick story with you to add to this. Because when I, you know, being in central Ohio, I would live in Columbus, Ohio. After I was playing arena football, I went to pursue the NFL. I played arena ball, got injured, broke my wrist. And then I was sleeping on my sister's couch for a year and a half, thinking, what am I going to do with my life? I have no skills. I didn't graduate college. I barely passed to stay in college. It was all just to go try to live this dream of being a professional athlete. It's just focus on sports and girls. And that was pretty much it. And. And when I got injured, I realized, oh, I can't go play ball anymore. What am I gonna do now? I'm twenty four.

• 23:42Lewis Howes?

  I have no, in my mind, I'm thinking, I have no skills for a career. It was two thousand seven, two thousand eight, that timeframe when the economy crashed and, you know, people with masters weren't getting jobs and it was just challenging. So I was like, how am I gonna do something with my life? I ended up reaching out to as many people on LinkedIn in Columbus that were executive CEOs that I could to, to learn about their stories. I never asked for advice. I never said, can you give me a job? Can you help me?

• 24:14John Maxwell?

  Sure.

• 24:14Lewis Howes?

  I just said, I wanna learn how you became successful. It's inspiring what you've created. I started hosting these networking events and going to events as well in, in Columbus and then around the country. And as I would go to these events, all I would do is ask people questions about their success, about their challenges they overcame, and I would never say anything about myself. And people at the end of the conversation would always be like, man, you're like the most interesting person here. Thank you so much for asking me these questions. And I didn't say anything about me. I just asked and, and sometimes asking questions can be the greatest gift you give someone than trying to be this personality and interesting and say stuff about you.

• 24:57Lewis Howes?

  So I, I went into it not knowing what to do, not thinking I had value, but just opening someone's heart and mind to their life story is such a gift as well.

• 25:09John Maxwell?

  Oh, that's beautiful. It's a, what's, what I love about your story is the fact that you weren't even intentional. You were just, you were just trying to learn yourself about success. But because you were talking about them and asking questions about them, that goes back to that charisma definition, that it was all about them and, and all of a sudden you realized. This was making you the most popular guy at the, at the party.

• 25:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I, I. And I, and I know it. And I'd always ask them, like, what's your biggest challenge right now? And they say, well, I'm, I'm looking for someone to help me with a website designer. I'm looking for an engineer. I'm looking for a salesperson. And since I'd been connecting with so many different types of people, I was like, oh, I know this. I know the right person for you. And I would call them and I put them on the phone with them right there. I was like, here, just you guys connect and hopefully it helps both of you. And I became a connector of opportunities. Cause I was like, I don't have the skill. I can't do this for you, but I know someone that could.

• 26:05John Maxwell?

  Of course.

• 26:06Lewis Howes?

  And that became a valuable, you know, asset and gift that I could give people, but I didn't know what I was gonna do. And that, that curiosity and trying to add as much value as possible, really gave me a lot in return over the long term. I was planting seeds, as you were saying.

• 26:23John Maxwell?

  Yeah.

• 26:23Lewis Howes?

  Um, all those conversations and that helped me in the long run. So.

• 26:27John Maxwell?

  And, and look where you are now. I mean, I mean, look where you are and look, look how you got there. In, in fact, when I hear your story, which is just incredible, it, it, I, I talk to people all the time and I say, don't go to the next job, grow to the next job. Because if you grow to it, it's natural. So you started asking questions and start your, your, your job training right there for what you do.

• 26:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:55John Maxwell?

  And, and it, it was, it was a natural evolution and you grew to where you are today. I mean, you didn't, you didn't sit on your sister's couch and say, I'm, I'm gonna go be this incredible talk show host and personality. No, I'm just gonna go talk to people. And so it was natural. So when you, when you grow to where you go, it, it, it, it feels comfortable to you.

• 27:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 27:20John Maxwell?

  When you go somewhere, it's very uncomfortable. You think, okay, now what do I need to know for this, for this job and the whole process? And but you're a beautiful example, Louis, of growing.

• 27:29Lewis Howes?

  I appreciate it. Thank you.

• 27:31John Maxwell?

  Growing.

• 27:31Lewis Howes?

  Constantly growing. And this, and I was telling you before we started, this is 10 years of this show for me. And I feel blessed and grateful every day. I get to sit down with someone like you who's got experience and wisdom that I can learn from and share this with others. And again, you're, you're, you're really, you've got a wealth of information, more than just leadership, obviously, and communication. You know, 50 plus years in marriage, you're probably like the foremost expert on marriage also in the world right now, since no one stays married that long. But I did want to ask you a few questions about leadership before I went into communication.

• 28:05John Maxwell?

  Sure.

• 28:05Lewis Howes?

  Because you've got an amazing new book out about communication, which I'll talk about here in a second. But you've been in the leadership game for a long time. And I'm curious, what are the two or three leadership qualities that were the same 50 years ago, as you were kind of entering into this world and learning about this, you know, content and, and style of influence? And so what are the things that are the same from 50 years ago? And then what is something maybe that has evolved in leadership and communication over the last decade?

• 28:44John Maxwell?

  Yeah.

• 28:45Lewis Howes?

  That you see as a great asset to bring to the table and learn and develop and grow into as a leader?

• 28:53John Maxwell?

  That's a great question, Louis. What got me into the leadership game was when I was in my twenties, I came to the conclusion that this is what I'm known for, everything rises and falls on leadership. I, I became totally convinced of this. I studied successful people like you. And, and I, and one day I just, I can remember saying, "The key to success is, is being able to lead well." And, uh, and when I wrote the 21 Laws of Leadership, the first law is the law of the lid. How well you lead determines how well you succeed. So, everything rises and falls on leadership. When I became convinced that that was true, I also began, became convinced that that was something worthy of my time.

• 29:37John Maxwell?

  That I, I could give my life to that, because if it's true that everything rises and falls on leadership, if I can teach people how to lead, what a, what a, what an added value is going to be to them. So, that I knew 50 years ago. I'm 76 now. What's beautiful about that is today, I believe it more than I believed at 26. It's, it's been proven.

• 30:06John Maxwell?

  Thousands of times that everything rises and falls on leadership. So I've given my life to something that really works and that is a true principle. So, and by the way, on rising, when leadership is good, there are two things that causes it to rise. And there are two things that causes it to fall. This is very simple. What causes leadership to rise is good leadership skills and good values. And you have to have both of them. You can't substitute one for the other. I know you have very good leadership skills, but they have very poor values. And what happens is if you have good leadership skills, but you don't have good values,

• 30:49John Maxwell?

  you'll manipulate people and you'll be unfair to people. You know, it's not right to manipulate people.

• 30:57Lewis Howes?

  What are two or three skills and values that you've seen have proven the test of time of all types of leadership in all industries and avenues of life?

• 31:10John Maxwell?

  Well, one of the leadership skills that is so essential is a soft skill, but it's foundational for leadership, and that is good relationships. You know, people, people won't go along with you if they can't get along with you. So, you know, you have to really, in fact, I tell leaders all the time, quit leading. When you stop loving people, stop leading people because it's not going to work if that makes sense to you. And, and so that's, that's huge. And that's one of the things that we talk a lot about. The, the skill of the ability to cast vision.

• 31:50Lewis Howes?

  The cast of vision, is that what you said?

• 31:51John Maxwell?

  The cast of vision. See, a lot of people can see something, but they, they can't. Cast it to make it contagious. And so.

• 32:00Lewis Howes?

  How do you cast the vision to make it contagious?

• 32:02John Maxwell?

  Well, it has to be contagious with you. And then secondly, you have to understand that you need others to accomplish it. So that's what causes you to cast it. See, so there, there, there are a lot of people that are successful, but they're not leaders. They have a vision for themselves. They have a vision for their entrepreneurial, perhaps they have a vision for their business. And so they do very well for themselves, but they don't lead others to it. But, you know, when, when, when the, when the vision is bigger than you, you have no choice. You gotta relate well to people, then you have to make your vision contagious to people to get them to join you. Because, you know, one is too small of a number to achieve greatness. And so

• 32:42John Maxwell?

  you have to have, you have to have the ability to, to develop and create teams. That's a huge leadership skill. Uh, that, that you have, that you have to have. The values, obviously, the first value is just valuing people. That, that's, you know.

• 33:00John Maxwell?

  You, you never add value people to people that you don't value. You just don't do it. And so if I devalue people, and that's one of the things that's heartbreaking to me today in leadership is the division that leaders cause. And, and, you know, great leaders unite their friends and divide their enemies. The leaders we have today, they divide their friends and unite their enemies. That's horrible. And so the ability to, you know, to, to build a team, these are all good skills. But the value of valuing people and, and integrity. Uh, wow, the, you know.

• 33:37Lewis Howes?

  When, when you're evaluating someone to be on your team, to have a, you've got a big vision, you've casted this vision, and you're evaluating someone to be on your team. And they say all the right things. How do you know if they've got the values of integrity or, or if they're just really good at saying the right things?

• 33:57John Maxwell?

  Well, a lot of times people are just really good at saying the right things. And so when, when you, when you bring, when you bring people on your team, you do two or three things. Uh, you three hundred and sixty degree them. In other words, you have your top, you have your top players interview them also. Uh, you know, I, I, uh, twenty eyes are better than two. Sure. And so you, you, you, you have them go out with them socially, you have them work a little bit of, in other words, you, and then you bring your team together and say, is this the right fit for us? Is this, is this person us, you know? And, and many times, people have said, no, they're not us. And I kinda, I probably would have hired them, but, but they, but they saw things that I didn't see

• 34:40John Maxwell?

  and they helped me, you know, not make a, not make a mistake. So you, I think collaboration is really essential in, in hiring. And I think when you're having a company, I think, you know, companies lose people all the time and they bring people in. So the question is not, are people coming in? I mean, it's like a revolving door to a certain extent. The question is not, are people coming in and are people going out? The question is who's coming in and who's going out? Right. You know, from a one to a 10, if eights and nines are coming in and twos or threes are going out, oh, happy day, you know? Right. Hey, but if twos and threes are coming in and eights and nines are going out, there, you know, there's an awareness. So look, to, to, to go to your question, cause it was such a great one. Yes, sir.

• 35:25John Maxwell?

  Let me, let me, let me say this, because when I started off 50 plus years as a leader, all you had to do was see more than other see. That's, the one thing that all great leaders have in common is they see more than other see. They, they see a bigger picture. So when I started, if you could see the big picture, you could lead. You solved. Yes. Today, that's not true. Today, you have to see not only more than other see, you have to see before other see. Okay. And, and because of social media and everything, before is starting to even replace more. And that's a hu, that's a huge. What does that mean? Well, it, it, it means that first really works.

• 36:07John Maxwell?

  And, and you, you have to be able to pivot quickly. You have to be able to adjust fast. You have to be incredibly, you have to constantly be aware of, of the, the changes around you and you don't have time to, um. You don't have time to kind of say, well, I'm going to give it six months and and think about it, you know, you you you know, you give it six days and and and hit it and and you know, the fastest person doesn't win the race. It's the person who starts first. And the reason I got my leadership niche is because back, if you go back in the nineteen eighties, Lewis,

• 36:49John Maxwell?

  there were no leadership books in bookstores at all, none. You could, in nineteen eighty-five, if you'd go into a bookstore, okay, there'd be one book on servant leadership that was written in about in nineteen forty something. There would be no books on leadership at all. There'd be all management books, all management. Peter Drucker, he owned the world. Peter Drucker, the man, in fact, he mentored me. He was a wonderful person. But but things began to move so quickly that no longer could companies manage. Management likes things to be very orderly and have a have a even pace and not move around a lot because you you manage.

• 37:30John Maxwell?

  Well, leadership is exactly, leadership thrives on change and movement and oh my gosh, what happened? So the reason leadership books started getting into the bookstores was was because you couldn't you couldn't manage, you can't manage speed. You have to lead it. And then so and I realized that. And then I was the first person to come out with the, we're talking about the first is better than fast. I was the first person to come out. There's basically, I wrote the book called Developing the Leader Within You. And and that book was all about the fact that you, up until that time, they really thought you were a born leader. That, you know, are you born, you either had it or you didn't have it. And I came out and said, no, no, that's not true. There are leadership skills you can learn. You can develop yourself as a leader.

• 38:11John Maxwell?

  And I I broke into the leadership world on that, basically on that theme that you can develop yourself as a leader. And it just, my books went crazy. I mean, they they've just hadn't read anything like that. And so so so the scene before now is just. Everybody, everybody's aware very quickly what's happening, good, bad, you know, beautiful, ugly, doesn't matter, there were. And as a leader, you have to be poised to, to move very quickly and, and, and, and that'd be very, you gotta pivot fast, you gotta, you know, you, it's, it's, it's being agile. Agility is a great, great strength right now of a, of a leader.

• 38:53John Maxwell?

  I, I think that the latest on Harvard Business Research is that if you have a bachelor's degree from college, it only has a five-year lifespan and then it's over.

• 39:01Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 39:02John Maxwell?

  Five years, five years. If you're not adjusting, changing, moving, you, you know, you're gonna be, you're gonna be left behind very quickly. So that, that's a big change in, i- i- it's like the game of baseball or football, okay, any, any sport. Football is the sa- football is, it's, it's the game of football, but every game isn't the same.

• 39:24Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 39:25John Maxwell?

  It's all football, but every game is different. And it's the same way with leadership. Leadership's still leadership. I'm still teaching leadership after all this time, but so much of it has changed in the way that you lead. And when I started off, if you had a position of leadership, you were a leader. I mean, that was, that was important. I, I'm, I'm, I'm the boss, I'm the leader. Today, positional leadership is hardly important to be able to lead others. You know, it's just those kind of things all the time. I mean, I could go on forever. This, this conversation can not stop.

• 40:00Lewis Howes?

  I love this, I love this. I'm curious, what is the, this is a two-part question then. What is the biggest mistake you see leaders making today? Uh, with all the, the changes that are happening so fast on the internet and just society and culture and politics, what's the biggest mistake leaders are making today? And also, part two, um, what is the biggest thing you've missed out on as a leader in the last five years where you didn't follow your own advice?

• 40:32John Maxwell?

  The biggest leadership mistake that, that leaders make is they lead by assumption.

• 40:38John Maxwell?

  They assume that they know where the people are and they don't. And assumptions the mother of all mess ups in leadership because if I assume, Lewis, that I know where you are, I will lead you in a way that won't help you at all. In fact, I tell leaders all the time, you gotta find the people before you lead the people. So you don't start leading people, you start by finding and asking questions is the way to beat and defeat assumptions. So when I ask questions, I find you and when I find you, I know where you are and when I know where you are, then I can, I can lead you well. Does that make sense?

• 41:17Lewis Howes?

  Yes, and the biggest mistake that you've made as a leader in the last three to five years where you didn't follow your own advice?

• 41:27John Maxwell?

  Well, I, I think that I, um.

• 41:29Lewis Howes?

  Or something you missed out on, an opportunity that because you weren't flexible or adjusting or whatever it might be.

• 41:35John Maxwell?

  Yeah, I, I, I, I'm given a lot of opportunities and, and I, I, I'm kind of opportunity driven. So they're, they're very attractive to me and, um, but because I get so many, I can't say yes to all of them. And so there have been a couple of times where I had opportunities to do something that would have, um, as I look back on it now, would have had a good high return that would have helped me help people a lot more. Uh, but I didn't have enough, uh, bandwidth for it or I, you know, I had too much, I had too much on my plate. So it was, I knew I was losing out. Only time told me how much I lost out.

• 42:19John Maxwell?

  You follow, in other words, you know, five years later, you say, oh, that was, that wasn't a loss, that was a loss, you know what I mean?

• 42:28Lewis Howes?

  Big loss.

• 42:29John Maxwell?

  Yeah, as, as far as, but I think that, I think when people are highly successful, the biggest challenge I have is not my to do list, it's my to don't list. And, and, and, and I, and, and so what I miss today normally is not the fact I wasn't aware of it as much as it, it was the fact I just couldn't, I couldn't get to it. And for, for example.

• 42:56John Maxwell?

  When you get to a certain stage in growth and development and success, you could still grow, but it's very incremental. But if you can come along somebody else and partner with them, you can explode potential. And so I've missed out on some partnerships that I could have gotten into that would have

• 43:18John Maxwell?

  would have helped explode in a positive way, some good things. But I just didn't, I just didn't have, I just didn't have enough time to get it because I keep building myself. And so, you know, if I could go back, I would change some of those things.

• 43:34Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure. You've got this book out that I'm excited to dive into, Sixteen Laws of Communication. And I want people to, I want people to go get the book, sixteenlawsofcommunication.com. If you use promo code LEWIS at checkout, you'll get free shipping and a discount. So make sure you guys go and check out this massive hit of a book already.

• 43:56Lewis Howes?

  Again, you've been studying leadership and communication for a long time. And you've been teaching it, you've been applying it. What is your greatest leadership strength? Based on all the principles you share and your greatest communication strength? And which one is your, the one you're still working on the most?

• 44:17John Maxwell?

  Well, I think my greatest leadership strength is,

• 44:26John Maxwell?

  I have the ability

• 44:30John Maxwell?

  to cast a vision that people want to be a part of.

• 44:35Lewis Howes?

  How do you do that so well? Like, can you, can you break it down? If you're talking to someone on your team and you're like, I've got this idea.

• 44:42John Maxwell?

  I do it better today than I used to, let's start there. And, and part of it is because of who I am now. So for example, when I started, I started a coaching company 11 years ago. And, and for 20 years, people said, you ought to have a coaching company. You coach a lot, you mentor people. And I, and I thought, it goes back to my play. I thought, I don't need another thing on my play. I've got, I've got a whole bunch of stuff going. And so about 11 years ago, I decided to start a coaching company. And now it's the largest coaching company in the world. We have, you know, 50,000 plus coaches in 172 countries. And, and, and it's just, it's just, it's exploded.

• 45:22John Maxwell?

  And uh, but, but, but I think a lot of that growth and casting vision, people attracting people is because I've been in the leadership world for, I've been in that world for forty years. I was already kinda like a, I was a proven commodity. People didn't say, I wonder if I should follow him. You know what I mean? It's kinda like, I can use his name and, and, and be an entrepreneur and, and, and be a coach and that name is going to open up doors for me. And so, uh, I, I think part of the, of that ability of being contagious with vision is, is the success. I think the more success you have, that itself draws people.

• 46:06John Maxwell?

  So, in, in leadership, probably cast a vision. In communication, I think, um, I think my greatest strength in communication is that I, uh, I really can connect with people when I speak. And, and the, you know, the book is a lot about how do you connect with people. In fact, one of the laws, there are sixteen of them, but one of the laws is the law of connecting. And the law of connecting just simply says that communicators know it's all about the audience. They know it's all about the people. And, and so when people come to me and they say, you know, I wanna be a, I, I wanna be a good communicator, you know, what advice do you give me? I said, Tom, very simply, you've, you've gotta get

• 46:51John Maxwell?

  over yourself. It, it, it is not about you. And, and that's hard for a beginning speaker because a beginning speaker is, they're not good yet. They haven't practiced enough. They're nervous. They're saying, I hope I do a good job. I hope people like me. Yeah, I mean, I hope if I tell a joke, they laugh. And, and so they're very consumed. They're, they're, they, they go out and speak, but they're, they're all self-consumed. And you can't connect. You can't connect with people if you're consumed with yourself. And so, you know, but so it takes a while. It takes a while to, you know, to, to get over yourself. But the moment I, you, you get over yourself, first of all, the nervousness of speaking

• 47:32John Maxwell?

  goes away, you know, cause now, I, I, I'm not worried about, well, I hope they like me and I, you know, will they applaud when I'm done? And, and, you know, do, do you think they'll take notes? See, that's all about me. It's all about me. Instead of focusing on, on, so when the book was coming out, Lewis, we did a, a, a video. On the sixteen laws. And I told the, I talked to the producers and I insisted that the videos start with me and the audience, not on the stage. And so when the video starts, I'm sitting in a, in a, in a, in a seat, in the, in an auditorium. And I'm the only one there. And, and I start off by saying in a few moments, the auditorium will be full of people. And it's all about the people.

• 48:17John Maxwell?

  And it's all about my ability to connect with them, to understand them, to, to put them first. And it's not about the stage yet. I, I, I, I will go to the stage, but don't go to the stage until you've thought about the audience. It's, it's, it's all, it's all about the people. So a fun thing that I've done, cause I'm, again, I, I keep, I keep growing, I keep creating, and we keep developing. And I love the whole process of where I am. I'm, I'm, I'm still learning so much. But one of the things that we did, it was an idea of a guy in Nashville who, of course, Nashville's music and, and he's, he has, he has a company of writers, very successful. And he came to me, I didn't even know him.

• 48:59John Maxwell?

  He said, I read your books and I learned, I learned, I built my company off of your books 20 years ago. And he said, I think you ought to write songs based on your books. And I thought, oh my gosh, I never even thought of that before. And I, I love to write poems. I write to my grandchildren and to my children, I wrote, every birthday I write them a poem, a poem. And, and the night before I write it, and then I send it at 3:30 in the morning on their iPhone. So when they wake up in the morning, they, they have what they call a Papa poem. And so I love to write poems, but I never wrote songs. So I said, I'd love to try it. So I went to, I mean, I went to Nashville, got the studio with these awesome writers.

• 49:41John Maxwell?

  I mean, these guys write number one songs for all the, all the country stars. So I'm at the bottom of the class. I mean, I know nothing. You know what I'm saying? These guys are, and, and one of the things I teach is that if you're the head of the class, you're in the wrong class. Get out of that class. You shouldn't be in there. If you're the head of the class, you're just talking about what you do and you're not learning anything. So I always like to be around people bigger, better, faster, smarter than me. This was huge. And I got in the studio and we started, I watched him and I learned from him. So we started writing songs and, and one of the songs that we wrote off of the sixteen laws of communication is the song, uh, Get Over Myself. And, and, and, and the core, and the chorus, in the chorus basis is I gotta, I gotta know myself.

• 50:24John Maxwell?

  Uh, to be myself, I gotta be myself, define myself, I gotta find myself to improve myself, I gotta improve myself to get over myself. I gotta get over myself so I can give myself to you. And, and it's been released. So any of your people that are on your podcast, that wherever they, you know, wherever they download their music.

• 50:44Lewis Howes?

  I'm going to Spotify now.

• 50:45John Maxwell?

  Oh, yeah. Get Over Myself is one. And then another one I wrote from my book, uh, Today Matters, I wrote a song called Day, uh, Day by Day. And that one's coming out, or that's out now. Those two are out. They're, they're doing great. Oh, my gosh, they're doing super. And then I got that one coming out next month on Sometimes You Win, Sometimes You Learn. And I'm having a blast. I'm just having fun.

• 51:05Lewis Howes?

  Are you singing also?

• 51:06John Maxwell?

  No, no, no, no, no, no.

• 51:07Lewis Howes?

  Oh, that's, you gotta start singing next time, John.

• 51:10John Maxwell?

  Oh, I don't think so. I think.

• 51:11Lewis Howes?

  Get your voice out, get that deep voice out there. You know, we gotta hear it.

• 51:14John Maxwell?

  The, the deep voice.

• 51:15Lewis Howes?

  They can auto tune it, you know?

• 51:17John Maxwell?

  The deep voice is better for speaking than it is for singing, trust me. But, but it's so much fun and, and I hope they get it. And, and it's just fun. It's fun. And so I'm gonna do, I'm doing a whole album. I'm, I'm releasing a song about every, every two months throughout the whole year. It's gonna be fun.

• 51:33Lewis Howes?

  That's inspiring. You know, what you just shared was one of the best pieces of advice that I heard about, I don't know, seven, eight years ago. I, I was, when I was on my sister's couch, one of the things that I did is I found a mentor who was a, a great public speaker. Spoke to college campuses around the country. That was his job. And, um, I met him and I was like, what do I, you know, I can't speak in front of three people without stuttering, stumbling and forgetting what I'm gonna say. And feeling like I'm insignificant. And he said, you gotta join Toastmasters and you gotta go every single week and you gotta put yourself in uncomfortable situations until you get better. And I followed the plan. I went to Toastmasters every week for a year. It was horrible the first few months.

• 52:18Lewis Howes?

  I mean, I was, I couldn't look up and look anyone in the eyes. I hadn't written out behind a podium and word for word, my speeches. I was, it was humiliating, embarrassing, sweating everywhere. It's, it's not fun. But that was the only way I could really grow into becoming a better communicator was to practice.

• 52:36John Maxwell?

  Yeah.

• 52:37Lewis Howes?

  Pretty uncomfortable. And after about seven years, I started to build a brand. I started to have, you know, some success in business early on before this podcast started. I started to speak on certain, you know, workshops and then bigger stages.

• 52:51John Maxwell?

  Sure.

• 52:52Lewis Howes?

  And I would do this for, I don't know, seven or eight years and it got bigger and bigger and I started to make more money as a speaker and all these different things. And after seven or eight years, I remember I would still get nervous the day before and the day of, I would still have this anxiety and this stress. And I called one of my coaches about an hour before a speech that I had, nothing too crazy, probably a couple of thousand people, but it was, it was a good event for me. And I remember calling and saying, why am I still insecure and nervous? And he told me exactly what you said, which is why I think your advice is some of the best advice. He said, you're too focused on yourself and how you look and trying to look good. Stop worrying about you and start focusing on the audience. Know that you're, you might, you might forget that joke.

• 53:36Lewis Howes?

  You're gonna stumble over yourself and who cares? As long as you're serving people there, that's what matters. And I have taken that approach the last five years and the, the nerves are almost completely gone. And I feel relaxed because I know I'm not going to be perfect, but as long as I'm in service, that's what really matters. So I'm so grateful that that's your advice and coaching for people on how to communicate, especially on stage.

• 54:01John Maxwell?

  Totally. I, I, it's, it's such a great story and I, it's so helpful to the people that are on your podcast because honestly, Lewis.

• 54:10John Maxwell?

  The moment that they get over themselves, ninety percent of their stage fright, their nerves.

• 54:16Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 54:17John Maxwell?

  Well, it'll, it'll all go away because now you're focused on other people. And, and I'm, thanks for telling the story because I find that to be true with a lot of people. And you got good, you, you had a good coach on that situation.

• 54:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I mean, I was, I, I was, because I trained to be a speaker. I, I learned the skills. I learned how to effectively communicate. I learned vocal variety and all the different skill sets, but the ability to overcome myself was the, not the final one, but it was the one that was holding me back the most. And I still can grow in a lot of ways as a communicator, obviously on stage, but that was the one that was hurting me the most. I've got a, I've got a few final questions, if that's okay with you, John. I could speak to you for hours, but I want to be respectful of your time and we'll have to do it, we'll do it in person.

• 55:02John Maxwell?

  Yeah, shoot away.

• 55:05Lewis Howes?

  Um, and I want to make sure people grab your book, sixteenlawsofcommunication.com. Go there. Use the code LEWIS when you check out. You'll get free shipping. You'll get a discount and I'm sure you'll get some other goodies and bonuses that are around there as well. So make sure you guys go, check that out. We'll have it all linked up in the show notes in the description as well. But again, if you're looking to, if you're watching or listening and you're looking to become a better human being, but human, becoming a better human being is about being a better communicator and about listening to people and understanding where people are coming from, what their challenges are, what they're, they're struggling with silently, what they're struggling with publicly and, and having a better

• 55:46Lewis Howes?

  understanding about others, which I think when you master yourself, you can understand others better. And obviously, the, the, the skill of enrollment is a powerful part of communicating. And I know that's a lot about what you talk about is getting people bought into your vision, bought into you as a human, trusting you in that process of communication. So I highly encourage you to buy a few copies of sixteen laws of communication. And give them to your friends as well. You've obviously got, I don't know how many books you said, eighty-four, eighty-five books. But there's so many incredible ones, so I want people to make sure to get that. Obviously, Twenty-One Irrefutable Laws of Leadership is, you know,

• 56:27Lewis Howes?

  one of your biggest sellers, I believe, and people can get that and all the other books that you have out there. So, any airport you go to, you'll see racks of your books stacked up, you know, everywhere. So make sure you guys grab a couple and give them to friends. You'll always gain value out of these lessons from the inspiring John Maxwell. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end, John. It's called the Three Truths. It's a hypothetical question. And I'd like you to imagine for a moment that you get to live as long as you want to live. And you get to continue to live a beautiful, healthy, rich life of friends, family, and impact.

• 57:07Lewis Howes?

  And all the dreams that you have from here until that last day, they all come true. But for whatever reason, it is the last day, many years away. And for whatever reason, in this hypothetical scenario, you have to take all of the books, all of the content, this interview, every speech you've ever given has to, is gone. It's not here in this earth. It has to go somewhere else. It's, we don't have access to your content anymore and all your words and your wisdom.

• 57:40Lewis Howes?

  But on this last day, you get to leave behind three truths to the world. And we will get to use these three truths. These would be the three lessons that you would leave behind. Not having any other access to your content or information. What would those three truths be for you?

• 57:58John Maxwell?

  Great question. Well, I have to say that since you ask it, it's a personal question. I am a person of faith. So, one of those truths would be the fact that God loves people. And through His Son, Jesus, would love for them to have a relationship with Him. So, that would be, obviously, that's what I would call the eternal, quote, "faith truth." The second thing I would say to them is that fulfillment comes through a significant life. And so, What they need to be doing is caring for others and helping others and putting others

• 58:38John Maxwell?

  first in their life, because I think that's where true meaning, purpose, fulfillment comes out of. And the third thing I would say to them is never stop growing. I had a mentor in my early 30s who one time said, John, growth is happiness. When you're growing, you're just happy. And I find that to be very, very true. I'm 76 and I'm still growing. I'm still learning. I'm still asking questions. I'm still reading. I'm still curious. You know, I had a, when I was young, I had a mentor ask me what my plan for personal growth was. And I said, well, I don't have one. I didn't know I was supposed to have.

• 59:22John Maxwell?

  No one ever told me I should have one. And he told me these great words. He said, John, he said, growth is not automatic. If you get better, you have to be intentional. There's nothing automatic about. Getting older is automatic. Getting better is not.

• 59:35Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 59:36John Maxwell?

  And so, you know, wow. So I would say, keep growing, you know, just, just keep learning. Never lose that passion, that desire. And in fact, what happens at 76, my growth capacity is greater than it was at 26 because I've been doing it all my life.

• 59:52Lewis Howes?

  That's amazing.

• 59:53John Maxwell?

  So I learn more faster, bigger, greater today than I ever have before because I've built up this incredible growth capacity over these years.

• 1:00:02Lewis Howes?

  Wow. You've got so many great books, but I love that you're an avid reader and you've probably read a ton of books over your, your, your life. I'm curious if you could recommend three books for people on, just any three books you would recommend to help people, inspire people, grow their life, improve any aspect of their life that aren't your books. What would those three books be?

• 1:00:26John Maxwell?

  One of them would, would be, is a, is a big book. It's a huge book. I mean, it's like, I'm so sorry, it's probably 700 pages. But I read everything that Doris Kearns Goodwin writes. She's an historian that loves leadership. And she wrote a book called A Team of Rivals, and it's about Abraham Lincoln. And in fact, the movie about six years ago called Lincoln, that was so popular, it was off of her book, The Team of Rivals, okay? It was off of, and so I mean, it was her book that stimulated and was the catalyst. And the reason I would want them to, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a thick book.

• 1:01:12John Maxwell?

  But it's worth it. And what they need to do is make it like a summer project or, you know, I, I read about fifteen pages a day and mark it and, and then put it down and, and you do that. And, you know, for a couple of months until you do it. But the reason I would want them to read that book is because we are very divided in our country now. And, and, and we have leaders that are, I'm, I'm very leadership sad. But we have leaders that are on both parties, both parties, doesn't matter, that are, are, build their, build their election on dividing the people. And, and great leaders unite their friends and divide their enemies. And the leaders we have today, they're dividing their friends and uniting their enemies.

• 1:01:54John Maxwell?

  It's pathetic and it's, you know, anybody that understands leadership gets very sad to see it. So when you see Abraham Lincoln, he, The Team of Rivals comes from a fact that his cabinet was made up of people that ran against him for president, that hated him. Uh, you know, Seward called him a gorilla. I mean, they hated him. And he said, "The Civil War is so important to our country. I have to have the best minds in the room, regardless of they, if they're politically on my team or not." That was huge. And I think today it needs to be read because we desperately need an Abraham Lincoln. We desperately need somebody to come and unite the people.

• 1:02:39John Maxwell?

  And, and remember, he took a divided country, Civil War, and brought it back together. Then we take a united country and try to divide it again. It's very sad. So that, I, I, another, okay, another book I, another book that I would recommend that everybody read, and it's the old classic book, How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. I mean, it's, you know, it was written sixty years ago, sixty-five? But it it's it's it is the relationship Bible. I mean, you read that book and you can you can develop relationships. I I I read it for the first time when I was in the seventh grade. My father paid us, Louis, an allowance to read books. I love that.

• 1:03:24John Maxwell?

  Huge. So, you know, all my friends got an allowance for doing chores. In fact, I went to my dad and said, Dad, all my friends get allowance for doing chores. I think that's a good idea, don't you? He said, that's a terrible idea. He said, I he said, you do chores because you're part of the family. And I I don't pay you to be part of the family. Good Lord. Wow. He said, by the time you were born, you already owed your mother for nine months of room and board. So, yeah. And and and he said, why would I want to pay you to take out the garbage unless I want you to grow up be a garbage man? I said, I put my money where my values are. That's where I learned the values thing. So so from the seventh grade on, we were paid to read books. My father picked the books out. And and I'm the middle child, three of us.

• 1:04:08John Maxwell?

  And and we read books and it it by the time I graduated from high school, I don't mean this unkindly. I was so far beyond my peers. Because I I was feeding and reading these incredible. And and he would pay us, what he paid for the book is what he'd pay us to read it. And and our con our conversations around the table were about the books that we're reading. That's beautiful. Huge, huge. So but I think I think that's just a great. And then, you know, wow, there's a book I I read a couple of years ago that I just think is so good. There are so many I've read, but James Clear wrote a book called Atomic Habits. Oh, yep. You know, he's a Columbus guy. Yes, he is. He's a Buckeye, yes. He is, in fact, I'm going to be with him real soon. And he's just a terrific guy. But I think.

• 1:04:54John Maxwell?

  I think the ability to develop good habits. Is just so key to people's success. And I've read several books on habits. But there's no book like Atomic Habits. I think it stands alone. What the research he's done and the experience he's had with the people he's taken through his habits, schooling, etc. It's, yeah, that's a, now I'm starting to sound like the Chamber of Commerce for these people.

• 1:05:22Lewis Howes?

  I love it, John. I'm grateful for those recommendations and I recommend everyone grabbing those books. I've got one final question for you. For this interview, and again, hopefully we do many more in the future. But one final for this one. Before I ask the question, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, John, for being an incredible, humble servant to humanity on how to improve the quality of their lives and how to be better leaders for themselves, their friends, their families, their relationships, their careers, their businesses. And you consistently show up and serve. So I acknowledge you for your consistency, your level of service, your level of commitment to people bettering themselves.

• 1:06:03Lewis Howes?

  I think it's one of the greatest things that someone can do is show up and serve other people with their skills and abilities. And you do it in your unique way. And it's inspiring and fun for me to watch. So I'm really grateful. I'm glad we got to have this conversation. I hope we get to do many more. Maybe I'll come golfing with you sometime. I gotta get some new clubs. So you'll inspire me to get some clubs so I can come golf sometime.

• 1:06:27John Maxwell?

  We'll do it.

• 1:06:28Lewis Howes?

  And go watch a Buckeye game together.

• 1:06:29John Maxwell?

  Oh, that we will do. I promise that.

• 1:06:33Lewis Howes?

  But my final question, John, is what is your definition of greatness?

• 1:06:40John Maxwell?

  I don't think people determine greatness. I think history determines greatness.

• 1:06:48John Maxwell?

  I think that greatness lasts beyond the person's life. And the longer they're gone, the more important they were. It doesn't fade. And it doesn't fade because what they gave their life to and who they gave their life for was so important that it continues to live. It's kind of like a legacy is not what you leave for people. It's what you leave in people. And I think greatness, the great ones, leave something in people, the spirit,

• 1:07:32John Maxwell?

  that abides within them. And, and no matter where they are, who they are, they are influenced by that person. I, I think, you know, Nelson Mandela was a great leader. And he was a, he was a great leader. He was a great man. And, uh, you know, I've, I've been to Robben Island. In fact, I went over and they, literally, I went over with a news reporter and, and a fellow prisoner of, of Nelson Mandela for a half a day. And, and the prisoner, I knew, knew him well. I wanted him to tell me stories. And, and in the, in the process of being on the island, we came to a cell. The cell was only ten by twelve. It was a

• 1:08:16John Maxwell?

  very concrete bare cell, a little mat on the floor. And so I asked the reporter and this fellow inmate, if, if I could just have some time alone in the cell. And I asked him to close the, the, the, the door. And I laid down on his mat and, and I looked out the bars, which looked out at, at kind of, just a little window, but it looked out on kind of where a recreation field would be. So, you know, I didn't spend a long time there, maybe fifteen minutes, just reflecting and thinking about this man. So I came out and the news reporter was eager. And, and she looked at me, she said, "What happened

• 1:09:00John Maxwell?

  in there?" I said, "Well, I just wanted to, I wanted to be where he was." I mean, I mean, he's, you know, he spent twenty-seven years there. I wanted, I wanted to be, I, I wanted to put myself in his shoes. I mean, you can't, but I mean, for a few minutes. And she said, "Well, what's your takeaway?" And, and I, I, I looked at her and I said, "My takeaway is you can't imprison greatness." Wow. You can't imprison it, Louis. Greatness is greatness. It'll come out. You, you can't lock it up. It's destined to make a difference for people. And I think the great ones, you can't lock it up. You can't control them.

• 1:09:43John Maxwell?

  They were born for a reason and for a season in people's lives that could make a difference. And so to me greatness, greatness lasts, stardom fades, you know, and so it's, it's, it's kind of like, uh, make sure that you're leaving something in people, not just something for people.

• 1:10:05Lewis Howes?

  I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel on Apple podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend, leave us a review over on Apple podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to

• 1:10:47Lewis Howes?

  sign up for the greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com/newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.