#493: The Random Show — Bitcoin Pros and Cons, 2021 Resolutions, Fave Books, Lucid Dreaming, Couples Therapy, and More

The Random Show — Bitcoin Pros and Cons, 2021 Resolutions, Fave Books, Lucid Dreaming, Couples Therapy, and More | Brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Navigator http://linkedin.com/navigator, the best version of LinkedIn for sales professionals, FreshBooks http://freshbooks.com/tim small-business accounting software, and Magic Spoon http://magicspoon.com/tim delicious low-carb cereal. More on all three below. Technologist, serial entrepreneur, world-class investor, self-experimenter, and all-around wild and crazy guy Kevin Rose (@KevinRose https://www.instagram.com/kevinrose/) rejoins me for another episode of “The Random Show.” In this one we discuss Bitcoin, portfolio rebalancing, energy management versus time management, maximizing our enjoyment of nature, lucid dreaming, couples therapy, healthy Hawaiian venison, and much, much more. Please enjoy! This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Navigator http://linkedin.com/navigator! 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Many entrepreneurs, as well as the contractors and freelancers that I work with, use it all the time. FreshBooks http://freshbooks.com/tim makes it super easy to track things like expenses, project time, and client info and then merge it all into great-looking invoices. FreshBooks http://freshbooks.com/tim can save users up to 200 hours a year on accounting and bookkeeping tasks. Right now FreshBooks is offering my listeners a free 30-day trial, and no credit card is required. Go to FreshBooks.com/Tim http://freshbooks.com/tim and enter “Tim Ferriss” in the “How did you hear about us?” section! * This episode is also brought to you by Magic Spoon https://magicspoon.com/pages/tim cereal! Magic Spoon https://magicspoon.com/pages/tim is a brand-new cereal that is low carb, high protein, and zero sugar. It tastes just like your favorite sugary cereal. Each serving has 11g of protein, 3g of net carbs, 0g of sugar, and only 110 calories. It’s also gluten free, grain free, keto friendly, soy free, and GMO free. And it’s delicious! It comes in your favorite, traditional cereal flavors like Cocoa, Frosted, and Blueberry. Magic Spoon https://magicspoon.com/pages/tim cereal has received a lot of attention since launching last year. Time magazine included it in their list of Best Inventions of 2019, and Forbes called it “the future of cereal.” My listeners—that’s you—get free shipping and a 100% happiness guarantee when you visit MagicSpoon.com/Tim https://magicspoon.com/pages/tim and use code TIM. * If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tim-ferriss-show/id863897795?mt=2/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews! For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books http://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Disclaimer: I am not an investment adviser. All opinions are mine (or Kevin's) alone. There are risks involved in placing any investment in securities or in Bitcoin. None of the information presented today is intended to form the basis for any offer or recommendation or have any regard to the investment objectives, financial situation, or needs of any specific person. Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast include Jerry Seinfeld https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/, Hugh Jackman https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/, Dr. Jane Goodall https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/, LeBron James https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/, Kevin Hart https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/, Doris Kearns Goodwin https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/, Jamie Foxx https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/, Matthew McConaughey https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/, Esther Perel https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/, Elizabeth Gilbert https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/, Terry Crews https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/, Sia https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/, Yuval Noah Harari https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/, Malcolm Gladwell https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/, Madeleine Albright https://tim.blog/2020/05/27/secretary-madeleine-albright/, Cheryl Strayed https://tim.blog/2017/03/30/cheryl-strayed/, Jim Collins https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/, Mary Karr, https://tim.blog/2020/11/11/mary-karr/ Maria Popova https://tim.blog/2014/10/21/brain-pickings/, Sam Harris https://tim.blog/2020/05/15/sam-harris-2/, Michael Phelps https://tim.blog/2021/01/21/michael-phelps-grant-hackett/, Bob Iger https://tim.blog/2020/01/16/bob-iger/, Edward Norton https://tim.blog/2019/10/31/edward-norton-motherless-brooklyn/, Arnold Schwarzenegger https://tim.blog/2015/02/02/arnold-schwarzenegger/, Neil Strauss https://tim.blog/2014/06/24/neil-strauss/, Ken Burns https://tim.blog/2019/09/12/ken-burns/, Maria Sharapova https://tim.blog/2017/08/26/maria-sharapova/, Marc Andreessen https://tim.blog/2016/05/29/marc-andreessen/, Neil Gaiman https://tim.blog/2019/03/28/neil-gaiman/, Neil de Grasse Tyson https://tim.blog/2019/10/03/neil-degrasse-tyson/, Jocko Willink https://tim.blog/2016/09/21/jocko-willink-on-discipline-leadership-and-overcoming-doubt/, Daniel Ek https://tim.blog/2020/12/03/daniel-ek/, Kelly Slater https://tim.blog/2020/09/08/kelly-slater/, Dr. Peter Attia https://tim.blog/2019/11/27/peter-attia-fasting-metformin-longevity/, Seth Godin https://tim.blog/2016/02/10/seth-godin/, Howard Marks https://tim.blog/2018/09/25/howard-marks/, Dr. Brené Brown https://tim.blog/2020/02/06/brene-brown-striving-self-acceptance-saving-marriages/, Eric Schmidt https://tim.blog/2019/04/09/eric-schmidt/, Michael Lewis https://tim.blog/2020/05/01/michael-lewis/, Joe Gebbia https://tim.blog/2018/03/08/joe-gebbia-co-founder-of-airbnb/, Michael Pollan https://tim.blog/2018/05/06/michael-pollan-how-to-change-your-mind/, Dr. Jordan Peterson https://tim.blog/2021/03/01/jordan-peterson/, Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Brian Koppelman https://tim.blog/2020/04/23/brian-koppelman/, Ramit Sethi https://tim.blog/2019/05/07/ramit-sethi/, Dax Shepard https://tim.blog/2020/11/18/dax-shepard/, Tony Robbins https://tim.blog/2014/10/15/money-master-the-game/, Jim Dethmer https://tim.blog/2020/05/18/jim-dethmer/, Dan Harris https://tim.blog/2020/11/19/dan-harris/, Ray Dalio https://tim.blog/2017/09/13/ray-dalio/, Naval Ravikant https://tim.blog/2015/08/18/the-evolutionary-angel-naval-ravikant/, Vitalik Buterin https://tim.blog/2021/03/08/vitalik-buterin-naval-ravikant/, Elizabeth Lesser https://tim.blog/2021/03/16/elizabeth-lesser/, Amanda Palmer https://tim.blog/2019/04/18/amanda-palmer-2/, Katie Haun https://tim.blog/2021/02/18/katie-haun/, Sir Richard Branson https://tim.blog/2017/10/09/richard-branson/, Chuck Palahniuk https://tim.blog/2020/09/02/chuck-palahniuk/, Arianna Huffington https://tim.blog/2017/10/18/arianna-huffington/, Reid Hoffman https://tim.blog/2015/08/31/the-oracle-of-silicon-valley-reid-hoffman-plus-michael-mccullough/, Bill Burr https://tim.blog/2017/09/17/bill-burr/, Whitney Cummings https://tim.blog/2015/06/26/whitney-cummings/, Rick Rubin https://tim.blog/2015/05/15/rick-rubin/, Dr. Vivek Murthy https://tim.blog/2020/03/26/vivek-murthy/, Darren Aronofsky https://tim.blog/2017/09/09/darren-aronofsky/, and many more. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  Well, hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show. This is an addition, a special addition of the Random Show with my close friend Kevin Rose, well-known investor, serial entrepreneur, and all-around good guy, who's my friend. And we have an important preface, an important caveat, an important disclaimer before we get started. And here it is, provided from my lovely lawyers. Here we go. I am not an investment advisor, nor is Kevin Rose. All opinions are mine alone or his. There are risks involved in placing any investment in securities, or in Bitcoin, or in cryptocurrencies, or in anything. None of the information presented today, or really anytime, since you might be

• 0:42Tim Ferriss?

  listening to this anytime, is intended to form the basis for any offer or recommendation, or have any regard to the investment objectives, financial situation, or needs of any specific person. That includes you, my dear listener. So, everything you're gonna hear is for informational entertainment purposes only. And with that said, please enjoy.

• 1:05Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Magic Spoon. Magic Spoon is a brand-new cereal that I eat just about every day, that is low-carb, high-protein, and zero sugar. I just ate a huge bowl of their cocoa flavor about an hour ago, after a short workout. Magic Spoon cereal has received a lot of attention since launching last year. Time Magazine included it in their list of best inventions of 2019, and Forbes called it "the future of cereal." It tastes just like your favorite sugary cereal from childhood, remember that? But it's actually good for you. Each serving has 11 grams of protein, 3 grams of net carbs, 0 grams of sugar, and only 110 calories. It's also gluten-free, grain-free, keto-friendly, soy-free, and GMO-free. All the things. It's

• 1:47Tim Ferriss?

  delicious. And I don't say that lightly, because most of this healthy version of X-stuff is not delicious. But these guys really nail it. Magic Spoon has nailed it. It comes in your favorite traditional cereal flavors, like cocoa, frosted, and blueberry. You can try them all by grabbing a variety pack at magic spoon.com/tim, or you can just grab a box, or a bunch of boxes. I'm gonna order some more today. Of the cocoa, which is my personal favorite, but there's a new contender for favorite flavor because they just launched two limited edition flavors, Honey Nut and Peanut Butter, which are delicious. I am a sucker for peanut butter and it is outstanding. So I think cocoa and peanut butter are my two new favorite flavors. And fun fact, my friends are also obsessed with

• 2:32Tim Ferriss?

  Magic Spoon, one of the podcast's most popular guests, Dr. Peter Attia routinely crushes six to seven servings at a time. That's a lot with no glycemic response. He's looked at this with a glucometer. He likes it so much, he invested. Other friends, two very fine gentlemen, and also past podcast guests, Kevin Rose and Ryan Holiday, also invested. So, check it out. See what the buzz is about. Go to magic spoon.com/tim and grab a variety pack or cocoa, which is my favorite, or anything else, but see what strikes your fancy. Why not? Try a variety pack and be sure to use code TIM at checkout. My listeners, that's you. Get free shipping and a 100% happiness guarantee. So if you're not a fan, if you don't love it, they'll give you a full refund, no

• 3:15Tim Ferriss?

  questions asked. Again, check it out. Magic spoon.com/tim. That's magic spoon.com/tim. Take a look.

• 3:27Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by FreshBooks. When you're running your own business, it's easy to get weighed down by work that doesn't get you paid. That's why I love FreshBooks and have been recommending them for years on this podcast. It's an all-in-one accounting and invoicing solution built for small business owners like you. I've polled tons and tons of my listeners and readers who have brought up FreshBooks over and over again, and you guys have better things to do, so do I, than get caught up in admin work. Whether you're a podcaster or a creative agency, you can choose a plan that's right for you. FreshBooks has been used by more than 24 million people, and it can save you more than 11 hours a week by automating invoices, expense tracking, online payments, and so much more. Easy to understand reports and intuitive

• 4:10Tim Ferriss?

  dashboard let you know at a glance where your business stands. You can create, customize, and send branded and professional looking invoices in about 30 seconds. You can also avoid that awkward exchange. Change with your clients about overdue payments. Freshbooks automates sending late payment email reminders and allows you to send a customized message on your behalf. Freshbooks is a simple and intuitive tool for small business owners. But if you ever need a bit of help wrapping your head around something, they have an award winning Toronto based support team who are always happy to help. So try Freshbooks free for 30 days, no credit card required. Go to freshbooks.com/tim and enter Tim Ferriss in the how did you hear about us section.

• 4:50Tim Ferriss?

  That's freshbooks.com/tim and enter my name, Tim Ferriss, two Rs, two S's in the how did you hear about us section. One more time, that is freshbooks.com/tim. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 5:09Speaker 02

  No, it would have seemed inappropriate.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 5:17Tim Ferriss?

  Welcome to another episode of The Random Show. This is episode number 7,496. Kevin Rose. Correct.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  It is good to see you, my friend.

• 5:37Tim Ferriss?

  You too.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  It's been too long. When was the last time we actually saw each other in person? You were in Portland.

• 5:43Tim Ferriss?

  It would have been in Portland 100 years ago because it was simultaneous with a, I think it was Acro Love Festival where you had hundreds of people just smothering each other with body contact, one another with body contact. So that is a pre-COVID activity.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Yes. This is probably a year and a half ago, huh? It's been about that long. It's crazy. It's sad.

• 6:06Tim Ferriss?

  It is. It's wild. And what I'm reassured to see is you have your, your Japanese podcasting robe on and you seem to have new eyeshadow or mascara, which really brings out your eyes.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  It's called, it's called five hours of sleep, dude. It's called babies is what it is.

• 6:25Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I like it. You're converging with the raccoon gods that you upset so long ago by tossing one of their brethren downstairs. For people who want that security footage, you can search Kevin Rose raccoon and it'll pop.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  You're determined to make that like what's on my grave, like what I'm best known for is the raccoon toss.

• 6:43Tim Ferriss?

  Your Wikipedia legacy. Well, I want it in the first paragraph.

• 6:49Tim Ferriss?

  So we, we shared a Google spreadsheet that you created beforehand of things we might talk about. I'm sure we'll talk about all sorts of stuff. Where do you want to start, man?

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we can start with the Bitcoin stuff because you were super excited about that, which is odd because you're typically not like the biggest. I'd never seen you as like a hardcore crypto guy.

• 7:12Tim Ferriss?

  I would definitely not self-described as a hardcore crypto guy at all. I just happen to have this combination of ignorance and laziness, which led me to hold on to the Bitcoin that I had.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  Oh, so you're stoked. That's why. I'm like, why is Tim so excited about this? Because you have a boatload of money right now.

• 7:31Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I mean, I don't know if it's a boatload, but I've, I've held on to it. I mean, look, anyone who is holding, just to put a timestamp in this, it's January 8th, 2021, Bitcoin, I believe for the first time ever, just crossed $40,000 per Bitcoin.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  It was 41 this morning. Yeah.

• 7:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So anyone who has ever bought Bitcoin to the unexamined or unexamining eye, looks like a complete genius, right? But it's not possible that everyone bought Bitcoin for the right reasons or through the right process. But nonetheless, here we are and it's exciting to watch, even if it may implode. And people are drawing comparisons and certainly pointing out the differences between 2017 and now, where we saw this huge spike several years ago, and then a consequent crash. Now, I should point out-

• 8:22Speaker 01

  And that's happened several times now.

• 8:24Tim Ferriss?

  It's happened several times. And I should also point out that I got into crypto in a meaningful way, right before that crash in 2017. So if I had consequently sold all of it, I would have done so at a pretty massive loss. And I was like, well, look, I'm playing with house money in the sense that I can afford to lose whatever I am putting into crypto. So I'll just hold on to it. And- The premise, the premise that I used, or the set of assumptions I used to get into crypto, ended up being totally wrong in a lot of ways, at least in the sense that I was investing in crypto

• 9:02Tim Ferriss?

  as a hedge specifically against, say, a huge drop in the stock market since I had a few different pending IPOs and so on with

• 9:16Speaker 01

  This is like pre-Uber IPO, basically.

• 9:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, exactly. And so I made a bunch of very tenuous leaps of faith in my logic to look for different ways to hedge against the possibility that a market collapse could drag Uber down with it, right? So nothing stock specific, meaning nothing Uber specific in that case.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  I mean, you literally could have just hedged the market though at the same time.

• 9:40Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I mean, look, I could have hedged the market. I don't know much about shorting or hedging or anything like that. And when I looked at it even in any cursory way, looking at the stuff that's allowed, no gray hat stuff, it seemed very expensive to do it effectively. And so I decided to become involved with crypto, also because if you're in certain social circles with certain very smart people, yourself included, I mean, you've played a lot in the crypto sandbox, so I want to hear from you more than me. It's easy to get intoxicated and it's easy to kind of walk into this reality distortion field

• 10:21Tim Ferriss?

  where you're like, you know, the world is going to Mad Max in the next 48 hours and crypto will be all that survives. I'm not saying that's your argument. But the point I wanted to make is that if you look at the timeline, so 2017, boom, right? The sort of tulip bulb craze of crypto at the time, sort of tanks, or at least Bitcoin. And this time around with COVID, a lot of Bitcoin bulls and so on, were expecting that Bitcoin would be inversely correlated with these crashes and it would shoot through the roof, but that's not what happened.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:58Tim Ferriss?

  Not what happened with gold either. And I think what was underestimated Was how many people would need cash, right? And when you need cash, you sell whatever you happen to have. And if, if you have, for instance, as a lot of people got themselves into trouble by borrowing against assets, so they took out, say, lines of credit based on the value of their stocks. And then when the stocks cratered, those all got called and bankers and everyone else calling up, you know, Joe Smith, like, hey, Joe Smith, we want all our money right now. And they had to sell anything they could sell that was liquid. And that would include a lot of crypto. So it took a few months for crypto to recover to pre-COVID, whereas gold kind of took off

• 11:42Tim Ferriss?

  immediately after COVID. It did drop in the very short term, like the kind of early March to early April and then kind of picked back up.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  It wasn't a big run up, though. We never saw kind of massive, like, the crypto-like gains that we've seen with Bitcoin, right? Gold's picked up a bit, but not, not a ton.

• 11:58Tim Ferriss?

  No, not that much. And I'm referring to GLD specifically for people interested. But what are, what are your thoughts right now on all this crypto mania? I mean, there are differences, huge differences between right now and 2017, namely, the entry of, or at least one of them is the entry of institutional investors. And just a few months ago, Paul Tudor Jones and some other legends kind of dipping their toe in the water and beginning to make some allocations in their portfolios, fund portfolios, which is a big difference, not just personal. I believe that's true. Somebody can fact check me. But what do you make of all this?

• 12:39Tim Ferriss?

  This is a terrain that you're much more familiar with than I am.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Well, he's, my take is that with any new crazy, wild idea, come just a ton of skeptics, as, as there should be. And when Bitcoin was, was first launched and we were all playing around with the, the very early wallets, and I remember just buying coins and picking them up. And I wasn't really early, early, like, I wasn't, you know, in the pennies, but I was buying them around $10, $12 a coin, something like that. And, you know, it was, it was the Wild West. It was very difficult to do anything, to, to buy crypto, to, you know, we were all setting up mining rigs back then. And trying to mine our own Bitcoin and then eventually pools came out so you could

• 13:27Speaker 01

  join in with other people to do it more efficiently. But this is fresh new technology that hadn't been hammered and beaten on. And so, you know, anytime there's something that is directly linked to your finances, it takes years or decades for people to get comfortable with a new emerging technology to where they'll commit any serious capital to that technology. So I think largely what we're seeing here is, well, one, it's, it's, you know, there's a lot of stimulus money hitting the market. There's a lot of people buying on Square Cash app. There's, you know, it's much easier to purchase Bitcoin than it has ever been. You know, it used to be, you have to go to some shady exchange somewhere,

• 14:09Speaker 01

  hold up a picture of your driver's license with like, literally your like date written underneath it to make sure it was you, like shady stuff that I've been on some of the exchanges. My identification has since been hacked on many of these exchanges. Thankfully, I don't live at any of those addresses that I had those IDs I was holding up in front of the camera. But I do get text messages of people trying to fish me all the time, like trying to like get me to like-

• 14:32Tim Ferriss?

  So creepy.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  It's crazy. It happens at least twice a week. It's insane. Cause my, my information's out there. So whatever. But the point being is that it was extremely difficult to purchase Bitcoin. And now, you know, PayPal came online just a couple of months ago and is offering the ability to purchase Bitcoin and Ethereum directly inside of PayPal. Like it's just insane how easy this is now. So you're unlocking massive customer bases, like hundreds of millions of users with PayPal. You know, Square Cash is the, I think the second or third largest buyer now of Bitcoin.

• 15:04Tim Ferriss?

  And this is on the retail side, right? This is just on the retail side.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that's not even talking about the institutional money going in, right? So, you know, I work at True Ventures, venture capital firm, several billion dollars under management. We have positions in Bitcoin. You know, we've been doing that for a while. So-

• 15:22Tim Ferriss?

  When you say you guys have positions in Bitcoin, that means you've invested in startups that focus on Bitcoin?

• 15:27Speaker 01

  No, that means we actually own Bitcoin.

• 15:31Tim Ferriss?

  How does that work as a venture capital fund? You're operating the private endowment?

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, every fund is a little bit different. You know, in our specific case, there we have allocated as part of our, you know, formation documents for the fund, a certain percentage of the fund can be in cryptocurrency or cryptocurrency related companies. So we can say, I'm just throwing out a random number here. I'd have to go look at the docs, see what the actual number is, but let's just say 10, 15% of the fund overall fund size. You know, we have $600 million plus fund. That's, you know, that you can only invest that much from this specific fund into cryptocurrency. And so, you know, if we're going to go into, do a purchase, typically dollar cost average your way in over a couple of months and, and buy in and, and a place that, that has really strong security, like we don't hold this ourselves. It's not at our office.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Like you're using like, there's, there's big financial houses like fidelity and Coinbase custody and others that now provide these types of services.

• 16:27Tim Ferriss?

  You don't just have a bunch of hardware wallets sitting in your jacket pocket?

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's right here.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Just at my house. No, I don't, actually I don't, I don't mess with that stuff anymore. I used to have wallets and I actually had a laptop that I would, I bought specifically for cryptocurrency and I wanted to keep it in cold storage, meaning that I, back in the day when I was doing the craziest like coins that you've never heard of on these weird exchanges, I went out, I bought a laptop, it was an Apple, hooked it up to the internet, did all the software updates, like just put the wallets on there, transferred the funds and then immediately powered it down so that it wouldn't be online anywhere, hackable, and then put it in a safe. And like, that was the way I kept my cryptocurrency. It's crazy. Yeah. It's crazy. But, but yeah, so there's been enough time has gone on. This current run-up though, is just nuts.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  I mean, the thing you have to do with all these things is just, Don't look at the, the last three months because it looks like a decent graph and you're like, oh, that looks reasonable. Maybe I should buy some.

• 17:27Tim Ferriss?

  Look at the last year.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Zoom out to the five year view, the 10 year view. That's when you see really what's happening here. And it's, it's not even like a hockey stick. It's like, it's, it's even more, it's like insane how the run-up has been. And so I get nervous when you see, you know, it's, it's always a good tell around, well, in this case, it was like the, the virtual Christmas or Thanksgiving dinner when Uncle Harry is asking you if they should be buying Bitcoin. Like that's when I like my, my spidey sense tingles a little bit and be like, huh? Everybody wants this now, you know, and there's, it's just, if, if I were going to enter the market now, I would do it in a way that is you pick the dollar amount. Let's say it's a thousand dollars. And this is not investment advice. I'm just telling you what I would do.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  Pick a thousand dollars. I would say, okay, I want to own Bitcoin. I believe in the future of Bitcoin. I think this isn't going away, which is all those things are true and that there are things that I believe. It's a proven technology now. Let's take that thousand dollars and invest it over six months. And so just divide it up by six and there's do those, I'll say the first of every month and just go in. Doesn't matter what the price is. You don't care. You just buy that set amount. And that way, you know, at least you're averaging your way in over, over six months.

• 18:40Tim Ferriss?

  How do you personally think about crypto for yourself as part of your portfolio or percentage of your total? I mean, you're kind of famous for telling, not famous. Well, you're famous to me for telling me when I should buy stuff and then not telling me when you've sold stuff, uh, which I, which I appreciate.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  I love that call, by the way. You're like, are you still holding this? I'm like, no, I sold it for like a 10x like six months ago. And you're like, I'm down or something bad will happen. You'll have been screwed by the fact that we didn't talk.

• 19:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yep. That happens with some fair frequency, but, uh, what is, uh, what, what is your current thinking? In terms of crypto, are you steering clear? Do you still have a certain position? Is it an investment for you? Is it an insurance policy for you? Some people have drawn that distinction, just sort of philosophically, as looking at cryptocurrency as an insurance policy or a hedge.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  I think that over time, as, well, a few things. One, let's just talk about the ecosystem in general. I think that 99% still today of the coins that you see on the market out there are just garbage. I think a lot of them, and it's hard for them really to go away, the volumes of the volume in trades that happen just decrease over time, but they still have these somewhat impressive looking market caps just sitting out there, very stagnant, developers kind of drop off, it's just kind of like they're left for dead, but they're still around. So there's a lot of that, a lot of interesting innovation happening in the kind of decentralized finance space. So they call it like DeFi. It's mostly happening on Ethereum. There's a handful of projects where I say, that's really interesting.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  It's almost like an angel investment now. I want to hold some of that, but with the understanding that this could go to 10% of the value it is today. And so extremely high risk, but you know, still has the ability to have a 50x upside, right? So, or at least a 20 or 30x upside. If you just look at the market cap of Bitcoin today, there's not another 20 or 30x anytime soon coming to Bitcoin. It's just too big, right? Like the market cap is just too large. You'd be-

• 20:51Tim Ferriss?

  Why do you, now, how do you come to that conclusion?

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, first of all, there's a few ways you can do it. I think that you just have to look at the market cap in general, which I don't have in front of me right now, but I can, I can type it in. The other thing is just look at the proxies for this. So like, what is the market cap of gold, right? Of all gold out there? And it's in the trillions. Let me see here. If, I did this the other day. So Bitcoin right now, the market cap is-

• 21:23Speaker 01

  82.49 billion. So, you know, where would we be at if that's a 10x from now? Like, I mean, that's just insanity. That's, that's, I can't imagine that happening anytime soon. It would just be-

• 21:36Tim Ferriss?

  Now, that's insane because of the comparables that you might put next to it like gold.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, Apple is worth 2 trillion, right? And so, you know, you just kind of have to, and I know it's not the same in that we're not talking about corporations here with, with, you know, cash flows and PEs and things that we would typically use to, to, to value a company. That, that is not this. The closest proxy that I think most people draw the comparison to is to just gold, you know, what, what is, how much gold is in mine? How much is, do we believe is there in the, in the earth? What are people holding for an investment? How much of it is actually being worn? Like, there's a lot of other ways. So, there is a lot of potential upside in, in Bitcoin, but I don't think, you know, for me, I, it's not that I wouldn't hold it.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  I would definitely hold it. I think it's going to be a rocky, bumpy ride, given the run-up that it's had recently. Like, it's been forever. Like, this has always been the case of Bitcoin. It's been very bumpy, but the new low is higher than the last low. And it just continues to kind of, like, it wouldn't surprise me to see this drop down to 25 or 30 again. But I don't think it's going to get back to 10. And there's just too many institutional buyers coming in. So, I like it because there are a lot of governments, the US included, are probably one of the biggest defenders, just printing money right now. It's really hard to understand what the value of a dollar is or what it will be in the future. This is a fixed number of coins forever that will never change.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  It's universally accepted, you know, even more so every month, all over the world. So, it's, it's kind of a global reserve currency that I, I'm comfortable with. So, I, I do like it for that. But I think there's a lot of new, interesting projects that are probably have more upside.

• 23:23Tim Ferriss?

  That also require more due diligence and expertise, right? Or attention to detail. So, let's, if we talk about Bitcoin, just to, to continue on this thread, it's currently at, let's just call it $40,000 of Bitcoin. And you were saying, well, it's hard to see a 20x upside if we look at proxies or comparisons to gold, or certainly if we draw comparisons to Apple, that's a little bit categorically, I guess, a different comparison, but-

• 23:53Tim Ferriss?

  If we're looking at certain trends or growth trends that have been accelerated thanks to or due to COVID, right? If we look at, say, Amazon or Shopify or Peloton, companies that we're both quite familiar with and/or investors in, a lot has been accelerated and the growth trajectory of the graph has changed dramatically for a lot of companies, SaaS companies, right? Adoption of remote work, et cetera. Could someone make an argument that that is why, in part at least, we are seeing this adoption of Bitcoin and that

• 24:37Tim Ferriss?

  it is on some level reasonable? Or I guess in your mind, when you're thinking of how much this price can be explained via factors, external happenings, storming the capital, et cetera, certainly MMT and all this kind of stuff, versus just pure mania, right? Because the Bitcoin bulls will sort of lay out, often regurgitated, but sometimes cogent arguments for why this is explainable and reasonable. And then the bears will say, here's the tulip bulb craze of such and such a year, and this is exactly what's happening.

• 25:21Tim Ferriss?

  It's just pure mania. There's nothing to it besides greed and human psychology run amok. Where do you fall in thinking about explaining the price? Because if you look at institutional adoption, we're still super early. We are. Super early in institutional adoption. And by institutional, I mean, there are wide ranges of institutions. And certainly, I think, at the more conservative end, if we're talking about endowments and pension funds and so on, it's super early, not to mention sovereign wealth funds and so on, right? The really gigantic kind of nation-state players. So.

• 26:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. What do you think? I mean, from an institutional adoption perspective, it's super, super early. That does not mean, though, that the tiny amount of adoption up to this point, plus Square, plus PayPal, have organically produced $40,000 per Bitcoin prices, right? That's a lot of word salad I just threw at your face via Zoom. So maybe you can speak to that.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Well, I think that it is really hard, if you look at the people that are actually looking at the blockchain and watching where assets are moving, some promising and also some really scary things start to emerge. And so I think the promising side is just the average consumer now has access to purchases with just a couple clicks and Apple Pay and everything else. Like, that's the ease of purchase is gone, as we mentioned earlier, it's just, it's simple now. So that has unlocked certainly a lot of demand, especially around a hype cycle. We know about the institutional side. I agree with you that it's very early days there. And there's been several proposals, and there are new ones out there for a Bitcoin

• 27:12Speaker 01

  ETF. I think that happens, and we start seeing these appear in people's 401k accounts, and things just go bonkers. The scary side of things is some of the price manipulation that's going on. And so, you know, there are ways to manipulate the price. And this is, well, I'll bring it up in with the caveat that it's being talked about on the internet, so I'm bringing it up here. It is not my view that this is happening, but it is being talked on the internet, so it's worth mentioning. So I say that from a news perspective, not from an accusatory perspective. And that is that there is-

• 27:50Tim Ferriss?

  There's a lot of preamble for Kevin Rose.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Well, I'm just, I'm trying to say that because I don't want them to come after me and like just sue the shit out of me, basically.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  So, so there's, there's a, there's a stable coin out there. When I mean stable coin, for those people that don't know, there are a bunch of coins out there that you can hold as cryptocurrency that are pegged to an asset, like a fiat asset that we know, which like, say the US dollar. So if you hold USDC is what it's called, the coin, and you hold one of those coins, it is worth $1 and that never changes, it's just pegged at that price. And so there are a bunch of these, and one of the larger ones is called Tether. And so Tether is, we don't have, here's the thing, there's been some analysis of some of these transactions and Tether, if you can imagine, if you control and it is centralized, if you

• 28:43Speaker 01

  control, the way that Tether is supposed to work is this, if you send Tether $1,000, they issue you $1,000 worth of Tether coins, right? That's makes sense. If you go to redeem them, they give you back the $1,000, right? And so it kind of grew and well, I shouldn't say kind of grew, it's massive now. And

• 29:03Tim Ferriss?

  Let me ask a novice question. What is the use case for that? Why would someone do that? They want a mobile

• 29:10Speaker 01

  They want stability.

• 29:12Tim Ferriss?

  They want stability.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. So imagine you're sending your aunt in Costa Rica $100 and you want to make sure $100 gets there, not $92 because Bitcoin dropped, you know, or, or maybe she'd like if it went up. But you know, it's like, it's, you need the stability and it can also be used for a whole slew of other things. They do lending with it, regen or interest on it. That's what a lot of the decentralized finance comes from. Anyway, so Tether coin, for example, is, is one of the first ones, one of the first stable coins, and it has a $23.93 billion market cap. Now, there are currently some ongoing investigations into what's going on behind the scenes at Tether, because there are some allegations that they're just issuing

• 29:55Speaker 01

  new Tether and buying Bitcoin without there being the reserve USD to actually back it up. So there's been a handful of articles, you can search tether, whatever you want to call it, like scandal or whatever you may be into Google News, and you'll see that people are looking at this and saying, huh. And there's several organizations, like government organizations that are looking at this and they're saying, okay, we need to peer inside here and make sure everything is kosher, because if it's not, they could be just propping up the Bitcoin market and buying Bitcoin with fake minted tether of stable coins. And if that's the case, and that comes out, it's going to be a shit show for a few days. It's the best way I could describe it.

• 30:38Tim Ferriss?

  Do you think, yeah, that's probably a description, the shit show. Do you think, not knowing anything about it, that they have sufficient volume to prop up, so to speak, the Bitcoin price or to inflate it?

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, just to give you a sense, in the last 24 hours, they've done 114.31 billion in volume. It's heavily used on some exchanges. Some exchanges won't touch it. There's some exchanges that you won't even, you can't even purchase tether if you wanted to. So it is the one piece that I look at and I just say, ah, gosh, I don't like where this is trending and some of the people that are looking into this. This could really put a big black eye on the market. It doesn't mean that Bitcoin is a fraud. It has nothing to do with Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a legitimate technology that works well. It's well secured. It's been hammered on. Like there's, this doesn't mean Bitcoin goes away, but it does mean that if there's-

• 31:43Tim Ferriss?

  It could spook the hell out of lots of people.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  It spooks the hell out of a lot of people, and it also shuts down ETF talks and all those other things, because a lot of the reasons why these ETFs for Bitcoin aren't being approved is because of these claims of this type of market manipulation. So it's a, but to your earlier ask around, like, what do you, how do you think of this when it comes to portfolio construction? And again, I'm a venture capitalist, not a registered investment advisor. This is not a financial advice. But for me personally, I think-

• 32:13Tim Ferriss?

  Informational purposes only. This is informational and entertainment purposes only.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  If Tim says it-

• 32:23Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, you bastard. That's not true.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  You're gonna cut that out.

• 32:26Tim Ferriss?

  You rat bastard.

• 32:31Tim Ferriss?

  Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Navigator. LinkedIn Sales Navigator is the best version of LinkedIn for sales professionals. Get ready to exceed your 2021 sales goal with the help of LinkedIn Sales Navigator. That's what it's built for. The best salespeople know that closing deals is about understanding your customers' needs and building relationships. It's time to reimagine in-person selling and cold calling for the digital world. Nowhere is this more true in post-COVID. So tap into the power of LinkedIn's 700 million-plus member network. LinkedIn Sales Navigator gives you 20 monthly in-mail messages, lead recommendations, unlimited searches, actionable insights and news, and access to free courses on LinkedIn Learning.

• 33:14Tim Ferriss?

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• 33:59Speaker 01

  So basically, I would say for me personally, I think, okay, maybe up to 5% of my overall portfolio. And consider it super high risk. But I like your strategy, Tim. It's like you, it's the kind of one you have to take with cryptocurrency. If this gets cut in half or cut in three-quarters, you just have to say, huh, okay, bad day, bad week, bad month, and just ride it out for the next 10 years because you know in 10 years it will bounce back and the returns are going to look better than ever. So, you know, that's kind of how you have to play it.

• 34:28Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, and it's a it's a test of conviction and process also, right? In the sense that I've been talking to, you know, friends and like you, sort of the kind of Uncle Harry equivalents are like, I want to put money into Bitcoin and Ethereum and I'm like, can you tell me what Bitcoin is? And they can't even hazard a guess. It's just something that's going up in value very quickly. And the sort of observation I've made, because usually, is your uncle actually Harry? I don't want to throw this guy under the bus. That's made up. Okay, good. Okay, so, okay, so Uncle Harry usually will have a story that is something like this.

• 35:09Tim Ferriss?

  My friend Bob has invested in crypto and over the last seven months, he's made, let's just make up a number, you know, $500,000. And my question is always, did he sell all of his Bitcoin and pull out $500,000? And the answer is no. And my, my follow up to that is, well,

• 35:34Tim Ferriss?

  it all looks good on paper, but if it's not enough to just buy something that is going up in value, unless you believe it's going to go up in value indefinitely, you also have to have a plan for if and when you are going to sell that asset and redeem. Now, some pure believer or true believers would say you'd never sell Bitcoin. And that's one option. But unless, unless you have deliberately conscientiously decided that and you have that as a bulletproof, emotion-proof strategy, you sure as hell better have a plan for if and when you are going to redeem to some type of fiat. And if you don't have a defined time horizon,

• 36:16Tim Ferriss?

  the likelihood of you losing money because you sell in a panic when it plummets is pretty goddamn high.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  That's why I like the lower percentage points of your overall portfolio, because it has to be money that doesn't matter. So you can hold it for the long term if you want to do it, hold it for the next 20 years. But I guess what you're saying is it does get to meaningful money at some. Point, right? Because naturally, if it, if it does 5X from here or 10X from here, then it's going to be no longer 5% of your portfolio, right? So in that case, like, I would force myself to every year or every other year, just rebalance. So like,

• 36:55Tim Ferriss?

  Do you, do you actually do that, though?

• 36:58Speaker 01

  100%.

• 36:58Tim Ferriss?

  There are 100%.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  You do. I did it with Peloton.

• 37:01Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. All right. So you, so now you would do that regardless of the, the duration of holding that investment? Or do you wait for long, long-term cap gains, right? I mean, like, is there?

• 37:15Speaker 01

  I would wait for long-term cap gains unless it is something just absolute bonkers. So if it's, if it's absolute bonkers and you're just like, I mean, look at Tesla right now. Just like, look at that chart. Click on the five-year and, and your Apple Stocks app. It's, it's, it's just like the, you're like, how is it not bending over? If you're like, it should fall backwards, it's going so hot. It's ridiculous. And, and so you, if you, if I'm holding short-term cap gains there,

• 37:44Tim Ferriss?

  I just want to point out that you're also, you are also a lover of Tesla products, right? So like, you're not saying this is as a Tesla hater. You love their stuff.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  I have, listen, I have two Teslas. They're fantastic vehicles. They're, they're my favorite. I have a truck on order. I can't wait to get that thing.

• 38:01Tim Ferriss?

  And yet, when it's a straight line.

• 38:05Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's, you know, it's, it's just one of those things where if it is getting an outsized percentage of your portfolio, then it just, it's absolutely smart to, and I kind of have this thing where, I mean, we talked about, I think you and I traded some texts on this, but we talked about just like, your overall mixture of, of assets and everything that you have kind of put together. Like, what is your allocations for multiple things look like? And I'm, most of my stuff is just fully diversified, set it and forget it forever. Like Wealthfront style, just put it in there and have it be fully diversified and safe. And then I have a category that is like, let's just call it 25% of my overall assets that'll say,

• 38:48Speaker 01

  5X capable stocks or greater and those I know they're super risky well somewhat risky and they have real cash flow and all that but I'm going to invest in those and I would put like you know Pelotons in that kind of camp some of them riskier stuff like the Neos like the Chinese Tesla you know a few other things that I've bought over the last couple of years so you know it but then then always going and pruning and readjusting and saying oh actually my 5X stocks are now 40% of my portfolio let's trim that back to 25.

• 39:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I appreciated your strong buy recommendation on Pornhub. That was that was genius.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  Well, you're co you're co-owner now, which is odd, but it's it's your thing. The Acro Yoga.

• 39:31Tim Ferriss?

  I'm on the team. I'm on the team tab.

• 39:37Tim Ferriss?

  Free premium for the next two months. Use code Tim Tim. Tim Tim Kev Kev.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  I really hope they make that code. That would be fantastic.

• 39:44Tim Ferriss?

  That is a joke, people. Joke, joke. Joke, joke, Kev Kev. Now, I had a follow up to that. Oh, the follow up was really more a commentary because I think some people will be very interested in this conversation and others will will find it inside baseball or just they'll think that it's kind of rarified air investment talk and I would on one level agree with that and on one level disagree with it because we're sitting here at the beginning of 2021. 2020 has been such

• 40:23Tim Ferriss?

  a fascinating and punishing laboratory for looking at the consequences of good and bad decisions and there are many places where it's difficult in many ways to quantify those.

• 40:41Tim Ferriss?

  Upsides and downsides and risks, certainly with COVID, with certain information available, other information unavailable or pending. It's been challenging, but one of the playing fields in which you can look at decision making as sort of a microcosm of the macro, right? Like you get to see how decision making that transcends investing shows itself with stocks, crypto, whatever it might be, right? In other words, if you are able to observe and hone your decision making with even very

• 41:20Tim Ferriss?

  small investments, I believe that that transfers into, if you're self-aware, that can transfer into better decision making in other areas, right? Because we're all investors of time, energy, capital, and you can choose to become better at those things, or you can remain blissfully unaware. But one way or another, you are making decisions about investment every day. So that's another reason why I've paid attention to this a lot in the last year. I mean, I think there have been some incredible opportunities also in the last 12 months,

• 41:59Tim Ferriss?

  but more than that, it's just a lens through which you can look at how rational you are, how subject to emotional swings and corresponding bad decisions you are. And it tells you a lot about how you might make decisions, or more concretely, make rules for yourself in 2021.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  So can you give me an example of that? Like, I'm really curious, like, outside of finance, how have you applied this to other areas of your life?

• 42:29Tim Ferriss?

  Well, so for instance, in 2020, one of the biggest lessons or takeaways that I had for myself in investing, then I'll talk about how I would apply that, is that, this is going to sound so... Rudimentary, but you know, I've, I've been very lucky and also I think very good at picking things to invest in over time, right? If you just look at the last 10 years, 12 years, net, net, things have worked out pretty well. And there are a lot of circumstances, there are certain trends that I accidentally took advantage of, some that I deliberately took advantage of, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm pretty good at placing bets. I am

• 43:14Tim Ferriss?

  very weak, I would say, on exit strategy and knowing when to get out of positions. And this past year, I realized that three years, looking at a three-year time horizon for anything publicly traded seems to be a incredibly comfortable for me in the sense that I can't predict what things are going to do, what, what companies are going to do what in the next three months, six months. I have no fucking idea, no idea. Right. I mean, there are just so many curveballs that can be served to any company. Five years, I mean, geez, five years. Now we're talking about like Google starting to usurp Yahoo,

• 43:56Tim Ferriss?

  right? I mean, that's like a long enough period of time, especially with exponentially developing technologies that five years is very hard to call. But like three years, if I'm looking at certain types of companies that I feel like I understand pretty well, Amazon, Shopify would be two examples. I think Spotify also. I'm investors in all of those. And again, this is not investment advice. I don't know how many times we have to say this to cover our asses, but this is, you know, your mileage may vary and I only invest in things that I feel like I really, really understand deeply. Yeah. And I'm the same way.

• 44:37Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So three years, I'm looking at certain trends. I have an audience, fortunately, and a lot of friends who are kind of the tip of the spear with early adoption. Not all of those things work out, but when you see then it begin to kind of hop, like hop the fence from, say, my friends or my audience to people one degree removed, I'm like, okay, that, that I think is worth paying a lot of attention to. So that is, that has been a, a new rule that I have established for myself specifically for Publicly traded equities. Yeah. And the way that that's applied to my life more broadly, and we're gonna, we're gonna,

• 45:22Tim Ferriss?

  don't worry, folks, we're gonna get to other points besides crypto and investing, is looking at, you know, doing a full review of 2020 and then looking forward to 2021, thinking out three years as opposed to just 2021 and thinking about what types of sort of regularly occurring practices I want to have, and I can give some examples when we get into it, over a three-year period is, is really calming for me. Mm hmm. It's, yeah, like 10 years, 10 years is kind of like, I don't know, man. I mean, there's just so much that could change. I mean, who knows if, you know, Calif, you

• 46:05Tim Ferriss?

  know, if like Texas is gonna secede along, like maybe Texas and Montreal will become sister cities and, you know, or whatever, sister provinces, and they'll secede from the nation. I'm, I'm being, you know, a bit ridiculous with that, but like 10 years is a long, long time and a lot can happen. Three years, I just find that to be a very calm place for me when it comes to planning now, but also thinking about personal development and building a family and so on and so forth. So it's kind of like if you were to paddle out in the ocean at like a surf break, right? You would, you, when you first paddle out, let's just say it's a beach break for simplicity, like you're gonna have to get through these,

• 46:48Tim Ferriss?

  these first sets of waves, and then you're gonna have some calm, and then you're gonna get to like the outer breakers, and you're gonna be in the impact zone again, and it's gonna be exciting, but it's also can be really stressful. And I find like three years for me is just kind of comfortably in between those two. Yeah.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  I like what you said about also doing these kind of thematic investing where you say, okay, I don't know. I like you. You just named off the exact same companies that I pay attention to around e-commerce because like, obviously, we know e-commerce is, well, it's more so online these days than ever, but it's still a fraction of in-person commerce, right? So if we believe that trend is going to continue, which it will, you know, who are the players in that space? And, and so rather than say, well, actually, I think it's going to be Amazon and not Shopify or Square, you know, it's like, I just would rather own the

• 47:41Speaker 01

  entire bucket, right? So, you know, I go and get Amazon, Shopify, Square, PayPal, and I think that pretty much covers, you know, the future of payments. When I think about like, mobile payments and, and just happening on your phone, and eventually, when Coinbase goes public, I'll probably pick some of that up as well. But like, just having that and sitting on those and then just watching and kind of as leaders start to emerge, kind of dollar cost averaging a little bit more to get a little bit more upside in the, in the clear winners, if there are going to be any, then that's, that's kind of what, what I've done historically, that's, that's proved to be pretty successful.

• 48:22Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. And it's, you know, we're talking about kind of pickaxes and shovels, right? I mean, in the sense that a lot of these companies, not all of them, but a lot of these companies offer services that other companies capitalize on or other creators. And my choices also were based on different scenarios related to COVID. So I was like, okay, let's say COVID, like wave a magic wand, it gets solved tomorrow. But we were decimated, behaviors changed, growth trajectories changed for, let's just call it severely, for like six to 12 months. Okay. What does that look like for an Amazon? What does that

• 49:04Tim Ferriss?

  look like for Shopify? Okay. And then let's say COVID continues. Let's say there's a new strain and A, B, and C happens. And rather than best case, it's, it's, it's certainly, maybe not worst case, but a terrible case. What does that look like for these various companies? Okay. And just came to the conclusion personally that

• 49:29Tim Ferriss?

  In most scenarios you could play out as an exercise, these companies still seem to do well.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Right, but you also have to play out the other side too, right? Like, what happens once a vaccine happens? And COVID subsides? This is why I'm not holding Zoom right now. And Zoom may be a great, it's a great company, great product. We're using it right now. But it's like, it's, I just don't see, you know, when people start to return to work, what gets hit the hardest? And so that's, that's part of the reason why, I mean, I missed out on a ton of upside with the climb and rise of Zoom, but it doesn't pass that post-vaccine test. I want to, I want to have to believe in my heart of hearts that I will close my eyes and hold this thing for five years and before doing an investment. Otherwise, it's just, it's gambling at that point.

• 50:16Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, well, I mean, it depends on how you define your time horizon. And if you have the skills and the emotional control or stoicism to be able to stick to your plan, right? So for me, one of the reasons I came to three years is again, five years, I just don't have confidence that I can look into the crystal ball and understand where technology is going to be in five years. There are companies I expect will still be around, certainly. But let's just take in the case of Spotify, for instance. You know, I looked at Spotify really closely and I'm on Spotify. Like, I understand the technology. I use the product. I saw them investing incredibly heavily in non-music audio content.

• 51:00Tim Ferriss?

  And certainly at the top of that list in terms of their capital expenditures would be podcasts. And you have Rogan, you've got all these different folks. And for Spotify compared to, say, Amazon, there are people who would argue that podcasts are an existential priority, right? Like, they have to really heavily invest and be the A-player, high bidder for a lot of this core talent and these teams who can create content because their economic model is in some...

• 51:41Tim Ferriss?

  Is in some respect dependent on the improved margins through non-music audio, right? Amazon sells everything, right? Amazon sells a million things and Amazon Music and you know, the team who's on podcasts with Amazon is a fantastic team. But within Amazon itself, it's hard for me to imagine that that has the same level of urgency and priority that it would have for Spotify, just given the range of options.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Agree with that, but what about Apple?

• 52:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, Apple's huge, but Apple also is, I think, Apple's amazing. They have by far the most market share right now. And they're also, they have, I would, I would expect like certain constraints, right? Like, I don't think they're going to pursue anything incorporating advertising models, at least not in the short term, right? They just haven't had a lot of luck with that. They don't seem inclined to pursue it. Also, again, just because the, what is the lion's share of Apple revenue? I have to imagine it's hardware and Apple care and so on. I mean, the, the sort of incremental revenue add is pretty nominal when it is compared

• 53:02Tim Ferriss?

  to say Spotify, who is like, absolutely has to make this work. So for me, I'm like, all right. Apple, Amazon are going to be really deliberate. They're not going to rush. They have endless powder in the keg, right? Like, they just have, once they find things that work, they can, they can make them ubiquitous. I think that's going to take time. Is it going to happen in one year? Maybe, but I think pretty unlikely, which is why I think Spotify will continue, I mean, if I had to guess, to invest very heavily in trying to solidify their position as the

• 53:44Tim Ferriss?

  go-to platform for sort of talent and content creation within the kind of predefined parameters of non-music audio. And so for that reason, this is not the only reason, but for that reason, also looking at potential upside, right? I mean, in a sense that like, If you want Amazon to double, what needs to happen for that to, for that to happen, right? And then if you look at Spotify, for Spotify to double, what might need to happen in order for that to be the reward that the market and retail investors sort of bestow upon it? And the answer is, I mean, I feel like a lot less needs to happen for Spotify,

• 54:27Tim Ferriss?

  right? I'm not saying Spotify would ever do this, but like if Spotify were just a redomicile and avoid all of these various problems that they have with their current situation, not that they would do that, but like certainly there are steps they could take if they needed to, that would dramatically change their financials. And again, what the hell do I know, right? Like, I'm not an analyst, but.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, but this is your world, though. I mean, podcasting is like, that's your DNA. So I feel like you would do a lot when it comes to that.

• 55:00Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I just, I, and I also see, and you and I have texted about this, where people you wouldn't have expected to use Spotify are now using Spotify.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:12Tim Ferriss?

  Right? And it's made that hop over the fence in the United States. In Europe, the behaviors are very different. In Spanish speaking countries and regions, Spotify is extremely dominant, it would appear, based on polling my own audience. And

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a lot of room, there's a lot of room to grow, I think. Yeah, I agree with that. Like, I think Spotify is interesting from that standpoint. It is certainly, it's a really crappy razor thin margin business on the music side. Anytime they can get you anywhere away from one of the major labels, they're making money, right? Because you're paying that $15 a month, or whatever it is, $12 a month. I just found out they have a, I downgraded from the family plan to the duo plan, which is just for two people. So my wife and I just used the duo plan and saved my bucks, myself three bucks a month.

• 56:07Tim Ferriss?

  Well done.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Anyway, yeah, so it's a great product, too. I love the technology. I think that they have invested heavily on the kind of AI machine learning side of things to get recommendations better than anyone has, which is so key for music discovery. I'm a fan on that front as well.

• 56:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, and one more thing.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was gonna say one more thing on the finance side as well.

• 56:32Tim Ferriss?

  Fire, fire, fire.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  We should close off finance and move on, because I know we had a few more topics to hit. But I spent a crap ton of time researching and doing my due diligence on the various financial applications for tracking finances. So I just wanted to share this with people because I let my work benefit you in some way. So, you know, I feel that what I've done is, you know, all of us or most of us, we dabble in a bunch of things, whether it be cryptocurrency or a little bit of like, you know, E-Trade or whatever your broker is or Wealthfront, or you have a little bit of stuff here, maybe you have a home or not, or a car payment or not. And I want a universal dashboard to bring all of that stuff together. It's like one

• 57:18Speaker 01

  place where you can see holistically what's going on with all of your finances everywhere, credit cards, all that stuff. And I've tried all of the stuff out there. Real quick, Quicken sucks. It's horrible. It doesn't work with like half the crap out there. It won't tie to Wealthfront, it won't tie to a bunch of stuff. It's just horrible. So avoid that at all costs, even though that's like the old school one that sounds like, oh, maybe Quicken's better now. It's not better. It sucks. Now, I have this theory that a bunch of the Quicken engineers got together and were like, yeah, this place kind of sucks, but let's go create a new product. So Quicken came out with a new product that is actually quite good. It says it's called Simplify. So it's simplifymoney.com, S-I-M-P-L-I-F-I. You can just Google it.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Don't like try and spell that. Anyway, Simplify, it's by the makers of Quicken. So it is actually a fantastic product, and it's somehow competing against Quicken, their own product, which is very weird. I think what happened is, as with any old piece of software, You've got an old school audience that's been baked in for decades that if you change any user interface element, they go ape shit and they freak out on you, right? Like, that's the case with why all these software packages like Word and Excel and all these others, they just are turning into bloatware. You know, you look at them, you're like, why so many icons? And it's because people will complain if you remove anything. It's always hard to take features out. So this is just a really streamlined, beautiful, it's like three bucks a month. It's fantastic.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  Now, if you don't like this, one thing I do like about this, I'll just tell you one of the features I thought was really cool and I use this for over the holidays. You know how like you, you go and you return something like you got a sweater, you return it, but you like never know if it really hits your account again, you don't pay attention, like it became, there's a way to say, I return this and notify me when I get the credit back or not, if the credit doesn't come back. I guess I'm really like cool little features like that. So anyway, I was pretty impressed with that. It does link with a lot of the stuff. Very confusing why it links with a lot of the places that Quicken doesn't, even though they're the same company. But anyway, that's that. I think Personal Capital though, is the best one that's out there. Have you used Personal Capital before?

• 59:25Tim Ferriss?

  No.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  I don't use them on the investing side. Like, I don't put my money with them because they also have like an investing thing. I use Wealthfront for that. But Personal Capital is in terms of the interface, the holistic interface to bring together all the accounts, it's completely free. You don't have to spend any money on it and it kind of brings everything into one dashboard for you. So anyway, I, I've looked at like 10 others that I won't even bore you with, but, but those are my, my picks for the show.

• 59:50Tim Ferriss?

  Sweet. What, what now you are, how would I put it? You have a financial dashboard fetish. Like, some people like tentacle porn, some people like shoes, like Japanese, Japanese coffee, which you also like, but you have a financial dashboard fetish. So what I'm curious about is, do you just, does it just tickle your balls and you get a little feeling in your butterfly in your

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  I wish you were having wine right now.

• 1:00:21Tim Ferriss?

  Makes, makes you really happy to look at this? Is it just like a Zen garden for you? Or do you actually learn anything? Does it inform your decisions? Has it changed how You behave in any way.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  It has because what it does is it does a pretty good job at kind of categorizing everything that's going on in my life. And so it has a beautiful cash flow feature where I can see I've spent this much. This was my budget and this is how much income I have coming in. So I like to kind of track that and watch the trends over time. And overall net worth is cool because it like lets you tie in your house in there. Let's put your cars in there, like anything else that you may have any jewelry, anything. And you can kind of like watch as certain things appreciate or they don't and they go down. It's just like, I like the idea of being able to pull all this stuff together into like one interface because

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  if you think about, okay, now I gotta go log into Coinbase and now I gotta go log into Wealthfront and now I gotta go log into my bank to see my checking account. Oh, and I have a credit card over at Chase and I have an Apple Pay card and like, there's a bunch of stuff to check, you know, and, and that means in terms of transactions, uh, transactions as well. I mean, I've caught some fraud on these and alerted me to things where I was like, I didn't buy that. I went and canceled a card. So just having a way that I can go and every couple of days just see that and just do a quick gut check. Like, is everything sane here? It's nice and there's no, I don't have to log into multiple places and it's, it's free. So I don't know. It's cool.

• 1:01:53Tim Ferriss?

  So you avoid logging into multiple places by giving all of your login information to one entity? Or is there some type of auth that allows you to circumvent that like ulcer producing centralization, which would make me nervous?

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So Plaid is, it powers all of this on the backend. So Plaid is a company you, you may or may not have heard of. It was one that we invested in when I was at Google Ventures. They work with all the financial institutions to connect and provide data to apps like Personal Capital. So you're actually not sharing your login credentials with Plaid or with a personal capital. You're sharing them with Plaid. Plaid secures them. They issue like a token to Personal Capital. So Personal Capital never actually has your credentials. Um, and then they can view your data that through, through that one like secured vault. So it is nice like that. Yeah. I was worried about that as well.

• 1:02:51Tim Ferriss?

  So to completely, so I'll add one more thing on the finance front, which is I am fucking tired of thinking about anything related to finance or investing.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  That's been you forever, dude.

• 1:03:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  For five years.

• 1:03:06Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's true. That's true. But especially, especially in the last, I would say, six to 12 months. So my, one of my goals is to do as much possible in terms of batching activities or setting rules for myself, like strict rules, like you can't eat bagels. I don't eat bagels anyway, although they're delicious, but like making very binary rules for myself because I think it is very easy. And if we look at just human behavior, I think it's, it's very natural, but often harmful to one's health. If you have something that is moving up or down, or up and down, if you have something

• 1:03:50Tim Ferriss?

  easily quantifiable, that to your mind seems like points on the scoreboard, whether positive or negative, it's really easy to spend a lot of time being distracted by these things and looking at these things. I'm thinking a lot more about energy management over the next year than time management. I feel like time management should be a downstream decision based on your energy management priorities and rules. And that is how I'm approaching it. So I am hoping to do effectively zero investing unless I have to make defensive moves or disaster befalls me, which I hope will not be the case.

• 1:04:35Tim Ferriss?

  So that is all to say, I kind of crammed a lot of decisions because as you know, Kevin, I was sitting on the sidelines since, mostly sitting on the sidelines since, I don't know, 2015, with the exception of that crypto position. And

• 1:04:52Tim Ferriss?

  I don't enjoy it in the same way that that some of my friends do and maybe you do. Just the like the tracking of all of it. I think it's more, I feel like it's kind of a leaching of energy for me, even though it is very addictive. So I'm looking forward to doing things that have nothing to do with investing. And we were talking about in prep for this conversation, talking about, or I guess in the in the Google spreadsheet, talking about this year, meaning 2021 New Year's resolutions last year. And I do every year for the last handful of years, a past year review where I go through my calendar,

• 1:05:32Tim Ferriss?

  week by week, from the previous year and look at the things that gave me the most energy, took the most energy. Some of them are worth it, most of them are not. And trying to identify the kind of peak emotional experiences, positive and negative, and who the people and activities are on both of those lists. So I'm sorry to say, Kevin, you ended up on my negatives. I'm kidding.

• 1:06:03Tim Ferriss?

  And that's how I then go through and look at scheduling things and spending time or not spending time with activities and people for the next year. And the most consistent energy giver was time in nature and activities in nature. And it's just part of the reason I was so thrilled and we can kind of go in a direction. But to get as a gift, this book, which is Of Wolves and Men by Barry Holston Lopez. And it is probably the best nonfiction book I've read in the last five years. It is so Cool. unbelievably good. And I have

• 1:06:48Tim Ferriss?

  Highlights on almost certainly in every chapter. And it's just, I had to modify the way I highlighted because I highlighted so much. His writing is as crisp and clear as Michael Lewis. The structure of his writing is right up there with like John McPhee. And the, the beauty of his prose and just the wordsmithing and use of metaphor is right up there. I would say with Mary Oliver, I was blown away. I kept stopping my friends and wanting to read them paragraphs and chapters. And they got pretty annoyed after a while, but it is a spectacular nonfiction book.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  Very cool.

• 1:07:31Tim Ferriss?

  And yeah, it's.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  And it's funny, Tim, I don't know if you remember telling me this, but you told me, I don't know. Maybe was it six months ago, you were like, I'm not reading any new books. What was it? You were saying something like that. What was it?

• 1:07:44Tim Ferriss?

  Ah, yeah. So, well, for 2020, I read no books that were printed in 20, uh, that were published in 2020. So I was reading books, but I, I put up a blog post as a policy. And I think the title of the blog post was making the single decision that removes a thousand decisions. And that relates to the burden of getting hit up by hundreds of people a year who want me to read their books that are coming out, you know, a week later or two months later. Uh, and it's not that they're bad people, but they, they very often have a book coming out.

• 1:08:25Tim Ferriss?

  They want to be on the podcast and I end up oftentimes, or I have ended up with just stacks of hundreds of books. And the fact of the matter is we don't have that much time on the planet, you know, unless we figure out how to, you know, recycle, you know, 20 year old blood like vampires, like some people do, who shall not be named or whatever, using fancy drugs, rapamycin, metformin, et cetera. Like maybe you get, you eke out a few more years. Okay, that's possible. But if I look at the average age of death of males in my family, going back many generations, as far as I could like easily do the math, it's about 85. Like it doesn't really matter what you do, as long as you don't get hit by a bus or fall off a cliff.

• 1:09:07Tim Ferriss?

  Like you're probably going to die around 85. So I'm 43. That means I've crossed the 50% mark. I think it's helpful to just assume that. And. You can sit down and do the math, like, how many really good books do you read per year? And people do the math, and maybe they end up at five, maybe they end up at 20. It's hard to read 20 amazing books unless you're really deliberate about it. You probably read a fair amount of garbage. So you figure out, like, okay, this, you know, this book took me a long time to find, and it was gifted to me, even though it had been recommended many times, I still didn't read it.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  And you said a long time to find, meaning you just hadn't heard of it, or it's out of print?

• 1:09:47Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, no, it's not out of print. It's, it's a long time to find. It took a long time for it to happen, I guess is what I'm saying. It had been recommended many times, but we get bombarded with reading assignments all day long, right? Maybe it's just something on TikTok, or Instagram, or Twitter, or whatever, although I deleted all of those from my phone. I deleted, yeah, all of those have been deleted from my phone for about six months now, which is great.

• 1:10:15Speaker 01

  Wait, I saw you post on Instagram the other day. I didn't see you post. Daria told me you did, because I don't, I don't have it, I don't, I don't go on Instagram.

• 1:10:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, I do know.

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  No, no, she told me because you posted our chocolate bar that we got you.

• 1:10:28Tim Ferriss?

  I did, yeah. So I have a workaround. So the way that I post to Instagram without using Instagram.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  Your assistant does it?

• 1:10:37Tim Ferriss?

  No, I use, I use, and, well, I mean, that sometimes happens too, but I use an app called OnlyPult. And OnlyPult, like catapult, but only, Pult, P-U-L-T, allows me to post to Instagram without having the application on my phone. So I'm sure there are other things that allow you to do this, maybe HootSuite or others, but I've used OnlyPult, and it's, it's really kind of a, it is not a Swiss Army knife, it is for specifically posting.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  What is it? Is it just like Instagram and Askie? Like, you're like scrolling? I like to think that your assistant's calling you up and being like, Kevin is wearing a red shirt today and Daria seems to be holding their dog, like describing you post by post.

• 1:11:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I'm like, take out the semicolon. Who uses semicolons? No, I use OnlyPult. Think of it as a buffer for Instagram specifically. So you can schedule social media posts or post immediately using this application and it posts to your Instagram account for you. So what that allows me to do is I can take a photo of something I think is beautiful or useful, put it on Instagram and do so without ever being exposed to my feed in any way. So it is, in other words, it is write only instead of read only.

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  I mean, you could just unfollow everyone too. And then when you go, there's like a blank feed.

• 1:12:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I mean, I could do that.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  But then you don't get the DMs and stuff, I guess. Well, how do you look at your DMs?

• 1:12:14Tim Ferriss?

  I don't really use DMs.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't either.

• 1:12:16Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's just, it's just over, the volume isn't manageable. So the point being with these books is like, look at your track record of reading books. And I remember Tim Urban wrote about this, the creator of Wait But Why, in an amazing piece called The Tail End, which everyone should read. And it talks about how precious time actually is. Everybody listening to this, if you haven't read The Tail End by Tim Urban, read it, reread it. I reread it regularly. And the fact of the matter is, like, I don't know, maybe I have a few, a few hundred books left to read, like good ones. So I don't want to be reading stuff,

• 1:13:01Tim Ferriss?

  generally speaking, that hasn't stood some test of time, right? Like this guy, Barry Lopez, won the National Book Award. He was nominated for the National Book Award for this book, Of Wolves and Men. I mean, this, this is a very high bar, right? They just published the 25th anniversary edition. It changed how people wrote about nature or how people thought about constructing nature writing and nonfiction, period. Like the guy completely reshaped an entire genre of writing. It's incredible. And if you have that high a bar, there are still too many books.

• 1:13:38Tim Ferriss?

  So I'm trying to be much more purposeful about my reading and that was why in 2020 I had, I'm not reading any books published this year, which I am going to extend for 2021. So I'm not going to read any books published in 2021 either.

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  That's awesome. I love that.

• 1:13:54Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, feels good. And once you make the rule, it depersonalizes it. This is really important because it's hard to say no when you're making one-off decisions, right? If somebody comes to you and they're like, hey, can you contribute to my GoFundMe? Because, you know, I lost my shoes and I want to buy a nice pair of shoes or whatever. You just get hit up with so much stuff. And if it is a personal no, it's hard for people to receive. If it is a policy and you can point them somewhere, even if you say it's a policy, it often takes the sting out. But I could just point to, if you go to tim.blog/newbooks,

• 1:14:32Tim Ferriss?

  I think it is, like it's a short URL that takes people directly to that post on the finding single decisions that remove hundreds or thousands of decisions. And yeah, there it is. Yeah. So if you just go to tim.blog/newbooks, then it takes you to finding the one decision that removes 100 decisions. And so if I get hit up via email, via text, via fill in the blank by someone I actually know who wants me to read a book, I'm just like, you know, I wish I could, but I can't. I've set this public policy so I don't have to choose among friends. Boom. And I send a link and that's, that's it. That's the template response.

• 1:15:12Speaker 01

  Can I ask you how you, well, I'll tell you why I'm asking this question. I'm asking this question because one of the, as part of the training that I'm doing with, with Henry, who we talked about on a previous podcast, who's a Zen master that I study with. One of the things that I do is when I go for walks in nature, and you mentioned enjoying nature is one of the big highlights, the easy thing to do is to put on a podcast or an audiobook, right? And on top of that is to set it at two and a half speeds so you can get through as fast as possible. My instructions have been to take out my headphones and just treat it as a way to listen, just listen to nature, just like let it all come in and

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  put your focus and attention on the sounds that are happening around you. I found that to be a much more, it's like a amplifier on top of the already awesome walk, just this idea of really being there rather than try and do extra things while you're on that walk, right? And so my question is, you know, when I've been listening to audiobooks, I've actually said, okay, 1X speed, because I really, if I'm going to do a book, I'm going to give it my full attention. Are you doing anything like that? Or do you jam through books? Do you read them at night? Like, how do you consume?

• 1:16:36Tim Ferriss?

  Well, so there are a few things I'd love to reflect on that you just said. The first, as far as nature goes, I would say that, and I try to think about, much like the energy management leading then to time management, I think a lot, as you know, about the sequencing of things. Like, what is the natural kind of waterfall cascade order in which these things belong? And for me, spending time in nature is about cultivating a very detailed awareness of nature, or acute awareness of nature, first and foremost. If I do that,

• 1:17:18Tim Ferriss?

  the enjoyment or the contentment that I feel in nature automatically goes up dramatically. So I spent, and part of the reason I'm thinking about this so much is I've had a very hard time re-acclimating to Austin. And it's not because of just all the swarms of locusts, AKA Californians, descending upon this fair city, although I'm Critical to say that, obviously. It's, it's, it's because it's a city. It's a city and I spent a lot of time in the wilderness on a, you know, on a farm. I don't want to mention the locations, but for the entire summer. So, you know, I spent several months walking through the woods every day where there are black bear and coyotes and so on.

• 1:18:01Tim Ferriss?

  And seeing the changes, I would walk for hours and I got to recognize these very minor, or I should say minute, changes on my walks. I would see which trees changed color first as we got closer to autumn. I would see how tracks presented themselves in certain places at certain times of the day, dependent on weather. And when I came back to Austin, I want to say one, one thing also, one of the ways that I increased my appreciation for what was around me. Because I think if, if the walk isn't interesting enough for you, you're probably just not interested enough.

• 1:18:44Tim Ferriss?

  So I asked, and I'm going to be, you know, finding someone to pay to, to help me with this in Austin. Found wildlife biologists and specialists, or even people who work at, say, garden shops and things like that, to walk with me through the woods to identify things, to point things out to me. And, you know, the recommendation they gave me at one point was start with trees because flowers and wildflowers are very complex. There, there are going to be dozens, if not hundreds of different varieties. Start with the trees because in, in any given location, you might have, at least where I was,

• 1:19:26Tim Ferriss?

  let's just call it eight to 12 trees. And if you learn the classifications and how to tell them apart and how to describe the different characteristics that separate them or distinguish them, you're going to be able to identify 90% of the trees that you see. How cool is that? You know, before that point in time, they're just trees. You might identify a maple, let's say, because the leaf looks like something you'd see in Canada. But by and large, it's just trees. It's green stuff that's really high. And after that, you suddenly kind of click the dial a few notches towards high def. And your experience of the walk changes tremendously.

• 1:20:08Tim Ferriss?

  So I would occasionally take phone calls when I was walking, but I spent, I would say, at least 70, 80% of my time listening to bird calls, learning to identify birds.

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  You're a birder now. Are you a birder?

• 1:20:21Tim Ferriss?

  I'm not a birder. I'm not a birder.

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  It's okay if you are.

• 1:20:24Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, I'm not a birder. Someone will be able to find this. There is actually an app on Android, sadly not, last I checked, it wasn't on iOS, that is like Shazam for bird calls. It's amazing. In other words, you can hold your phone up, click a button, and it will identify which bird is calling, which is awesome.

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  Are you doing this? Are you doing Shazam for birds out in the forest?

• 1:20:46Tim Ferriss?

  No, because I use iOS. I use iOS. So I had to do it the old fashioned way and like go online and listen to different bird calls and try to compare them. The, the, uh, the other thing that I, that I found really fun to do, because not everyone's going to have access to someone who can point out different plants, is to use the Google app to do image searches on different plants. And it is incredibly accurate most of the time. I was stunned. It's so cool. Like just walk around your house, like how many people, and I'm going to plead guilty here, know the names or the types of all the plants they might have in, in or around their houses? Very, very few, I would guess, right?

• 1:21:31Tim Ferriss?

  And using the Google app and image search, which is very easy, you can pretty quickly identify the vast majority of plants, trees and so on. It's awesome. I've used it on walks here in Austin to identify trees.

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 1:21:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, so those are a few of the ways that I think about. Nature of which we are apart, right? It's very easy to feel separate from nature. And I think that feeling of separateness is intensified if you have earbuds in and you're listening to something at rapid speed. Nature doesn't really rush, right? So to meet it at its own cadence without listening to anything but what is around you, I find really therapeutic. As far as reading, these days, I definitely don't rush. Like if I'm rushing through a book, I should generally just drop the book. It's not good enough.

• 1:22:28Tim Ferriss?

  This book, like you should be, you should only be choosing books that you are sad to see end.

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:22:36Tim Ferriss?

  Right? Like if you're not like, oh, man, what am I gonna do now that I feel, oh, no, I have to find another book? If you don't have that feeling, then you're not reading the right books. I'll give you another example. So this book is one that I was given by my girlfriend for Christmas, and it's an awesome book. I hadn't read it in probably 20 years, and it's, it's this. It's called Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen Laberge, L-A-B-E-R-G-E, and Howard Rheingold. This is an incredibly detailed, tactical how-to book about lucid dreaming and developing

• 1:23:19Tim Ferriss?

  the different skills related to lucid dreaming. And lucid dreaming, I was really, really dedicated to a lot of these practices towards the very end of high school, or certainly the first few years of college. And I actually reached out to Stephen Laberge or his team when I was in college. I couldn't get ahold of him, but I did get the attention of his team because I said, You may want to look at, if you haven't already, Hooper's gene A. Hooper's gene A is a supplement. You can get it anywhere, certainly online, which acts as an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. And this is just a very long-winded way of saying.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  It sounds bad.

• 1:23:58Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I mean, it's not just.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  Inhibits choline in the brain?

• 1:24:01Tim Ferriss?

  Well, it's not turning off acetylcholine production, but it has anecdotally the ability to help one induce lucidity. How and why that happens, I don't know. At the time, I had a very, you know, well-developed pet theory for why this sort of mechanistically and plausibly why it worked. But the point being that Stephen Laberish came out of Stanford, lucid dreaming, to define that, is the phenomenon of realizing that you are dreaming when you are dreaming. You effectively wake up in your dream and you're like, holy shit, I'm dreaming. And normally you get excited and then you wake up.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, they call that, they call that in Zen, they call that enlightenment, but it's not when you're dreaming.

• 1:24:48Tim Ferriss?

  There you go.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  It's when you're awake and you wake up and you realize that this is a dream.

• 1:24:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, so you can start with, you could start with the lucid dreaming, see how you do with that. This is actually a phenomenon that can be demonstrated in laboratory settings because your eye movements during REM sleep correspond to your eye movements in dreams. So you could hook someone up to, I suppose it would be an EEG in a sleep lab. You will know when they are sleeping and in REM states and so on, based on brainwave activity. And then if they have agreed with the experimenter on a predefined set of eye movements, let's just say like right, right, left, right, right, left, or something like that.

• 1:25:33Tim Ferriss?

  When they become lucid in their dream, they could look following that pattern and indicate to someone who is in the lab that they are in fact aware they're dreaming.

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  Or they could just be closing their eyes and doing that.

• 1:25:47Tim Ferriss?

  Well, they wouldn't be able to pull that off.

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  Because the EEG wouldn't show it, right?

• 1:25:51Tim Ferriss?

  That's right. The EEG wouldn't, would just show that they're being dickheads and trying to pull people. But the lucid dreaming is.

• 1:26:02Tim Ferriss?

  It makes you more aware in your normal waking life because you develop the habit of doing what some people might call reality checks, and that is asking yourself the question, "Am I dreaming or am I awake?" while you're awake. And you would, and then you would test it. And the way you would test that, for instance, if you had a book cover like this with text on it, in a dream, you looked at the cover, at the text, you look away, you look back, the text is generally going to change because your brain is producing the entire experience moment by moment. So that would be one test. Be like looking at text, looking away, looking back. Another would be looking at patterns, like I'm looking at the wall in front of me in my kitchen,

• 1:26:47Tim Ferriss?

  and the tiles are laid a certain way. If I looked away and looked back at those tiles, they might be running the opposite direction or at a diagonal.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  Are your dreams that vivid? Like, my REM dreams are just kind of like, I never really believe that they're real. Do you actually like?

• 1:27:06Tim Ferriss?

  Well, if you never believed they were real, you would always be lucid, right?

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  Right, but I don't think like, I don't ever remember like picking up a book and being like, "Oh, it has text on it." Like, that doesn't, I don't get to that high fidelity. Like,

• 1:27:20Tim Ferriss?

  you work on dream recall first. So you would cultivate dream recall, and it is your grasp on the sort of coattails of details of these dreams is so tenuous that you, there are, there's definitely a protocol and an etiquette to maximizing dream recall. If you don't do it immediately upon waking, you know, if you move around, if you brush your teeth, if you go take a piss, like, it's gone. All of your dreams are gone. You have to be really methodical and strict about it. But it is incredible how quickly your dream recall ramps up. And you get to the point

• 1:28:01Tim Ferriss?

  where you're remembering oftentimes three, four, five dreams a night and taking them down. There are ways to improve that. You can wake up in the middle of the night, stay up for two, three hours, go back to bed. I mean, there are all these different techniques that are outlined in this book that really, really work. So in high school, when I first became reasonably good at this, I'm not going to say great, but I could usually induce lucidity in dreams at least every other night. And I was in my final wrestling season and I would manifest this guy John Smith, who was a famous gold medalist and had a particular type of wrestling with low leg attacks. I think he was out of Oklahoma. And I would train with him. I'd never met

• 1:28:44Tim Ferriss?

  him and I never, I never have met him. But I would train with him. I'd seen a lot of his video footage and I would train with him in my dreams in wrestling and found that to carry over into my normal practices. So there are all sorts of things. If you're, let's say you have stage fright. There are all sorts of anecdotes slash case studies of people who will then create inception style, right? They'll, they'll create the environment of performing in front of a crowd. They practice this in their dreams and it gives them an opportunity to rehearse facing their fears, right? So I'm really interested

• 1:29:25Tim Ferriss?

  in lucid dreaming and you know, there are some commonalities between the neurological or biochemical responses to REM sleep as compared to the, the effects produced by like LSD-25, right? There, there are some really spooky similarities. And so this, this came back to me. This is a book I've, I read many times in late high school, certainly early college. My own copy, which is covered in highlights is somewhere. And then it was, it was just gifted to me again. So I have many books in my house now that I would willingly

• 1:30:10Tim Ferriss?

  read a second time. I think that should be the bar for reading anything once. It has to be that good.

• 1:30:18Speaker 01

  That's awesome. Yeah, that's I have many books that I've never touched. You like you must have, but I want to get to, you know, it's just like, I tend to like clean out all the because like, I know what you mean. If anyone that has a podcast that has more than 10 viewers that you just get books sent to you. Like you get on some publishers list and all of a sudden like a new book.

• 1:30:39Tim Ferriss?

  It's the worst.

• 1:30:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy. So I tend to gift those mostly away to friends and whatnot. Cool. So what else are we going to cover today? There was a couple of things I wanted to hit.

• 1:30:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I mean, I'd be just, I'd be curious to know what you're, yeah, how you're thinking about 2021 and what kind of resolutions you have, if any, or how you think about planning for the new year.

• 1:31:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think there was, there was two things looking, I similar to you in that I spent, you know, a good chunk of time looking back on the year and, and I didn't go through a calendar, but I did look at my news resolutions from last year, which were that I failed at all of them. And so I just, I mean, and I look at what I want to do differently this year. And so I've set up some procedures in place. And then there were some things, some wins that I did have mid year, but they weren't resolutions because I didn't want to know we were going to be in COVID. And so, you know, I think that COVID, what it did for me is immediately caused me to start drinking more.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  You know, it was like very easy to finish a bottle of wine with my wife, like, you know, and where you typically back, oh, we had some leftover from last night. Should we pour a little? It's like, you know, we cleared a bottle out, no problem. And then went for a beer or something, you know? It was just like, because we were like, we're going to die. And it's like, if you're going to die, I might as well drink. So I was, I was basically just freaking out there for the first couple of months. And, you know, that, that kicked off a point to where I got to. And I said, I'm fat. I feel like I've drank too much and I need to course correct. And so if I'm honest with myself, I felt really depressed. You know, not in a clinical way, but in a just, this is really beat me down. I miss my friends.

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  I miss traveling. I miss like, you know, there's things that, and then part of me is like, well, you know, we have clean drinking water. We have food. We have jobs. Like life is good. So, but, but I think it's, it's impacted everyone a little bit differently. And what I immediately went to is said, well, how can I stop and cut back on drinking and then?

• 1:32:48Speaker 01

  Given that I only have so much free time with two little girls, what can I introduce that is new? That gives me some relief and brings my spirits back to into a positive place. And so I tried a bunch of stuff, you know, I tried, you know, walking through the the forest. Cause I live in Oregon and we I got a forest in my backyard. Tried sauna, tried cold plunge, meditation, Pilates, uh, working out, lifting weights, like all those things. And I would do a couple of weeks of them and say, okay, which one of these, if you had to like stack rank them, which ones are having the biggest impact on me? Cause I can't do them all. Which ones can I do that are having the biggest impact? And without a doubt, I would say the two things are are walking and and sauna.

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  Those are the two things that that are just so key. And um, I walk every single day now. And it is a no phone, no ear pods, like AirPods, like kind of walk. And it is, um, it's crazy what 45 minutes in the forest will will will get you. And in terms of just like a mood boost, you know, like swinging the arms, moving the legs, like it's it's fantastic. So, so that's been huge. Also, in being totally transparent, I did some couples therapy, which I thought was fantastic, like, and it's not because I thought I was gonna end my marriage, like I'd never got that crazy, but it's just something, you know, you're cooped up with somebody else with a couple of like little toddlers and it gets

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  chaotic sometimes, you know, and it's like you're, there's no work escape. Work is in the home, like, you know, there's no, there's no way to have that natural kind of break that you get, um, whether it be grabbing a beer with another friend and then coming back to your spouse or like, there's none of that. You're just on top of each other. And so, you know, we had done couples therapy back before and after we got married is kind of like a to give us a toolkit to deal with issues. Um, and it's fantastic. I highly recommend it. It's every single time I've done it, I've never been pissed that I did it. And you know, and I've always learned-

• 1:34:54Tim Ferriss?

  What recommendations would you give to people who are? Listening to this and considering it as an option, what's any best practices or recommendations for people?

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  Well, I would say at first I was curious, like, are there any new tech plays that I can get into here? Like these talk spaces and some of these other things that are out there. And I find that those are really kind of like lightweight, not really meant for couples. It was just like, you know, text your therapist and I was like, I don't, I don't need this. So I found someone that I could actually meet with over like a secure zoom type connection. That is a real licensed therapist, not that they aren't on that, but a dedicated person to you. That's going to give you a full hour, you know, is not, not texting back and forth. And I would say, you know, I have another buddy that did the same thing. And he had to get to a second therapist to find the right one.

• 1:35:46Speaker 01

  So it's not like just because you find one that you're, you go to and you're like, oh, this, this isn't what I expected. It doesn't mean the, the idea of the practice is wrong. You might just not have the right person. And so we found a fantastic woman that is just really good at driving me back to the source of why am I feeling this way? And just opening up the lines of communication to let us and remind us that we're both on the same team. We both want what's best for each other and to support each other and help each other because we're coming from a loving place. But sometimes we get caught up in, in other things and other loops and cycles and scorekeeping. I'm a big scorekeeper because I'm, I've always avoided confrontation.

• 1:36:30Speaker 01

  Like my dad was a very verbally aggressive, abusive guy to my mom and had many, many, many good traits. I always like to say that about my dad because he did, but definitely not teaching me on the relationship side. Fantastic father, horrible husband, confusing for me as all hell, right? As a kid. You know, I think that I tend to avoid confrontation and then just kind of keep track of things. And then I then I get upset and and I have something that that's like I've all these things, ah, you know, just come out. And so just like trying to address things in more real time has been a big help for me. And yeah, there's been a ton of little things that I picked up. But anyway, I just wanted to tell people out there, if you're going through rough

• 1:37:13Speaker 01

  times, because I hear divorce divorce rates are like through the roof right now. It's like the courts are backlogged. It's, it doesn't mean necessarily you found the wrong person. You might just need a little help and that's okay.

• 1:37:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I think the real time versus dropping the motherload of like 17 complaints and freeze framed infractions is is really important.

• 1:37:40Speaker 01

  Would you share that line that you told me that you use that I think is really helpful?

• 1:37:44Tim Ferriss?

  Which one? Oh, I think, yeah, I mean, so I owe my girlfriend for all of these because certainly I didn't come up with these on my own. And I think she's been, she is very conscientious about how she uses wording and language. And you would expect that I would have that as as a writer or supposedly. But when I get upset, I think I, I tend to to throw haymakers, right? Not literally, but I'm less care, I'm less, I'm less careful with my wording when I'm upset. And it it usually escalates or damages things more than it helps. And I'm not like, I'm not a yeller. I never yell,

• 1:38:28Tim Ferriss?

  but I can be very blunt. And the wording that she used, and I noted it, and I have also used is really simple. It's, it's just, the story I am making up in my head is, right? And then you have that the dishes are left in the sink because you expect me to clean them up. And when I, when I believe that thought, I feel X, right? So you're not saying-

• 1:38:58Speaker 01

  It disarms it quite a bit, doesn't it?

• 1:38:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's really, and it's not just being nice. I mean, it's being more effective, because as soon as someone is put on the defense, It's game over. Like you're just not gonna, you're not gonna get where you want it to go. And by saying, and this is, this is also something if people wanted to study nonviolent communication, I think Marshall, something or other, you can find it. If you just search Marshall, nonviolent communication, I can't remember the last name, but there is an audio course that is quite good. And that's one structure. And you would think, as I did, I was like, well, if we're constantly both saying, the story I'm making up in my head is that it's going to be so formulaic that we're going to be like, come on, what the

• 1:39:44Tim Ferriss?

  fuck, you know, and it's just, it's not going to work. And I have not found that to be the case. It just continues to be really helpful, even if it is-

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  But it's true, though. That's why. Cause it is a story you're making up in your head, right? I mean, it's always what it is.

• 1:39:58Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. And having, I don't know a lot about couples therapy. I, we, we have, my girlfriend and I have worked with people before. We're going to likely work with someone again, just because I have phone calls on a weekly basis with someone who kind of looks after me. My girlfriend has phone calls at least once or twice a week with people who look after her, but there is no one currently whose sole priority is to be a sort of midwife, even if male, for the relationship, right? Like the cultivator of the relationship, us together. And my feeling is even if they're not the Jedi master of relationship coaches,

• 1:40:43Tim Ferriss?

  just having someone who can create a neutral, safe space where each person can get whatever they need to get off their chest, off their chest, is a huge service so that it doesn't bottle up, bottle up, bottle up, and then explode into this, like 20 exhibit assault on someone, which they just can't easily recover from. They can't easily defend themselves against, and it's really jarring, ultimately for everyone involved. And it can force people to just kind of throw their hands up and be like, well, fuck, I don't feel like I can win here. Like, I just can't win, right? And I think this has happened a lot during COVID. And I know that my girlfriend and I have both felt that way at different points. It's like, well, shit, man, like-

• 1:41:28Tim Ferriss?

  This is set up in a way like, I don't feel like there's any way I can win here. Like, there's nothing I can do that is, is going to lead to me feeling like I'm being successful. And I think that is much more likely to happen when it's bottled up and given out as like a massive dosage of 10 or 20 things. Instead of like on a weekly basis, having someone else say, well, Tim, like, is there anything else on your mind or anything on your heart that is, that you're withholding right now? And then I'm responding to a question as opposed to like snapping over something stupid and then letting all this stuff fly out of my face.

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  That's great. Yeah, I think that the, the thing that she's helped me with that I forgot to mention is that really just identify who the cast of characters are in your head and how they react to certain situations. Because we all have triggers. We all have these little rough patches that if, if you just poke the right way, it's gonna, it's gonna put you in an angry or upset or frightened or scared state. And, you know, I certainly have those as well. And so I can come at something defensively or offensively from a place that is one of these cast of characters that is taking over my, my brain at that moment. And when you can

• 1:42:51Speaker 01

  name them, define them, their wants, their needs, their fears, their hopes, you can say, oh, that's so and so appearing that has a fear of this. And she is triggering that right now. And so just, just that bringing awareness to that, just like, if you can catch yourself a little bit, it just, not that it makes it go away, but you're like, oh, okay, here's who's making an appearance. I know how to de-escalate this person, this, this type of, of my personality a little bit better than before.

• 1:43:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:23Speaker 01

  And have a rational conversation where you actually have an outcome that is one that is, that puts that person away for good, right? Or at least for that, that time. So.

• 1:43:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Definitely. There's something, there's something, it's, it's, it's not helpful for everyone. And there are different formats for it. Some of it I've found very clunky. Some of it I've found, depending on the facilitator, quite helpful for couples, and that is a Mago therapy. I M A G O. People can look it up and very quickly to decide whether it's helpful or not. But it, it does help you to convey in a nonviolent, non-aggressive way, some of the parts work that you're referring to, that certainly for my girlfriend and I were, was very impactful. Kevin, if you had to choose a word for 2021 for you, like a theme?

• 1:44:13Speaker 01

  Patience.

• 1:44:14Tim Ferriss?

  Patience?

• 1:44:15Speaker 01

  Yes. It's something I'm really trying to cultivate.

• 1:44:18Tim Ferriss?

  I feel like you're a pretty patient guy. Are you an impatient guy?

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I just think about what we have ahead of us in terms of vaccines that who knows when we're going to get them. You know, the crazy scariness of potential mutations of a virus, new incoming administration, the, all the anxiety and unrest out in the streets. Like, there's a lot of things where I just, like, I'm very anxious. And so I want things to be resolved, and I want my, I'm a problem solver. And it's like, I just need to have a little bit more patience. Just like, slow down, and just let things unfold the way they're going to unfold, and stop trying to, to, to project my mind into the future into some crazy scenario, you know?

• 1:45:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  That's, that's a big one for me. And the other thing for 2021 is, is just really asking myself, like, for the drinking thing, that I've, I've been really, really good lately. This is COVID drinking, so it's like, you know, I'm not going crazy, but like, it's more than I'd like to drink. So our new kind of, well, my new kind of framework that I've put together for myself-

• 1:45:27Tim Ferriss?

  Blackouts only on Tuesdays.

• 1:45:29Speaker 01

  Tuesdays, no less than 10.

• 1:45:34Speaker 01

  No, no, uh, yeah. No. So what I'm doing is no more than two. I have found that anything above and beyond two drinks just does not serve me well. I'm too old. I wake up like hot in the middle of the night for no reason sweating.

• 1:45:47Tim Ferriss?

  So bad.

• 1:45:48Speaker 01

  Like hot red wine sweats, you know? And then the other thing is never, never two nights in a row. So I may say to myself, I may be on night number two and I say, you know, like, or want to drink the second night? And I just tell myself like, can you go one day? Oh, of course I can. And then you go one day and it turns out the next day you don't want to drink.

• 1:46:06Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:07Speaker 01

  Then it's two nights in a row. So it's funny how just separating drinks by a night will help a ton. And then the, the last thing, and I think this is the most important thing, and the one I don't have a good answer for, but I'm working on, this is part of my Zen friend who's coaching me on some of this stuff, is really asking yourself, when you're having a drink, like really, who is getting nourished right now?

• 1:46:31Tim Ferriss?

  Like, that's a good, that's a good one.

• 1:46:33Speaker 01

  It's a really good one because what's happening? What part of me is, is there something that, because there's, there's something inside that's getting nourished and just trying to like, and I don't have an answer for that yet, but it's, it's a deep one to sit with, you know?

• 1:46:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. So question for you, when you look at your graph of drink consumption, as it goes down, is your consumption of edible gummies going through the roof?

• 1:47:01Speaker 01

  No, you know, although I will tell you, I did try something new called CBN. Have you heard of this?

• 1:47:07Tim Ferriss?

  CBN I, I have heard of actually from a grower, but I've never consumed.

• 1:47:13Speaker 01

  So there's a, um, here.

• 1:47:15Tim Ferriss?

  You should describe, describe it for folks. Yeah.

• 1:47:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. So there's, there's a gummy manufacturer out here. And by the way, Tim is saying this, but you know, I am not like, I'm not a big user of gummies. Like I'm not.

• 1:47:26Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I'm just fucking with you. But I do, I can, when, when you have had gummies, it is exceptionally clear in our text messages.

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  That's probably accurate. There's probably pictures of me eating pizza.

• 1:47:40Tim Ferriss?

  Fucking typing with your elbows. Yeah.

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. So basically, on the gummy side, there's one, a company called Wild, W Y L D. They make fantastic.

• 1:47:54Tim Ferriss?

  Wait, W Y L D?

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  Y L D, yeah. And so they, I think they have them all on the West Coast and they're starting to spread all over the place. But they do a CBN. It's not really psychoactive, but it really makes you sleep. Like it is, I'm telling you, it's the closest thing I've had to like, I don't know, it just feels like you're, you took like a sleeping pill or something like, I take it. And it does have a little bit of THC in there, like they do put some with it, but Wild makes a sleeping gummy. So, you know, for me, drinks, it's like, especially when, I mean, God, man, the news over the last few weeks and the months, it's just been insane.

• 1:48:32Speaker 01

  So when you're stressed out, um, and that's the nice thing about a glass of wine that, but a gummy with, with either CBD or CBN, but CBN more so these days. Fantastic sleep with it. And I wear the Oura ring and I just got the Fitbit to try out the new sleep data on here. And, um, so I'm tracking it to see how, see how it's doing.

• 1:48:52Tim Ferriss?

  If you have more than two drinks, you see it so clearly in your Oura data, it is irrefutable. It's just, it turns your sleep into such garbage. It's unreal.

• 1:49:02Speaker 01

  Well, resting heart rate goes up by 10 points, uh, and it's elevated all throughout the night. HRV goes down. Like there's just so many bad things that happen.

• 1:49:10Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:11Speaker 01

  Um, speaking of which, uh, in terms of like awesome little finds that have been helping us get through these times. This right here, I'm going to send you some of this, Tim. You gotta try this.

• 1:49:20Tim Ferriss?

  All right. What is it?

• 1:49:21Speaker 01

  So this is Hinoki wood in here.

• 1:49:25Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  And so Hinoki wood is one of the seven sacred trees of Japan. And when they talk about all the health benefits that come from forest bathing in Japan, cause you know, uh, walking in the forest can be prescribed out there from a physician. It's typically attributed to a lot of the fragrance from Hinoki, and this is Hinoki oil right here. I found a fantastic manufacturer in Japan of high quality, like cold pressed Hinoki oil. And I will tell you what it is. I have zero, I don't know any of these people. They're all in Japan. It is hinoki lab.com. So H I N O K I lab.com. These oils, they smell so, I

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  mean, you've been to like a Japanese, like proper bath house where they have like the essential oils and all this is the stuff's gold. Oh, and I put it in the sauna too. So you can put it in some water and then like poured over the coals in the sauna.

• 1:50:22Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, it's a type of cypress. It's a beautiful, beautiful tree, really dense foliage. Cool.

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I planted a few of them here in my yard, actually.

• 1:50:31Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, no kidding?

• 1:50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I got some, I had some broady.

• 1:50:37Tim Ferriss?

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:50:40Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I love it. It's good to be Kevin Rose.

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  Not from Japan.

• 1:50:44Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, well, you have to qualify. So you brought them in.

• 1:50:48Speaker 01

  Like I flew them via freight from Japan.

• 1:50:51Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, man, you know, all that, all the, all those crypto, all that crypto gold. I don't know.

• 1:50:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:58Speaker 01

  I can almost 100% guarantee you that you have more crypto than I do. So if you're looking at the ransack.

• 1:51:03Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, Jesus Christ. It's, it's, uh, yeah. Well, that's not saying much because you kind of divested yourself of everything.

• 1:51:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:13Tim Ferriss?

  Or a lot of things.

• 1:51:14Speaker 01

  For sure. I'm definitely more, I'm scared the markets are just like super overvalued right now. So I tend to go safer.

• 1:51:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Yeah, I think that's, I think there's, there's a good, uh, good argument to be made for that. If I were to pick a word for 2021.

• 1:51:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, what is it?

• 1:51:30Tim Ferriss?

  Right this moment, it would be mischievous. I think that I've taken a lot of things in myself way too seriously in 2020. And I think I want to bring more coyote energy.

• 1:51:48Tim Ferriss?

  And kind of prankster mischievousness into 2021.

• 1:51:53Speaker 01

  Interesting. So what does that look like in you? Like, like, like no mask wearing kind of thing?

• 1:51:57Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, that's just being a dick face. I don't want to do that. No, a coyote, it's more. Yeah, it's more, I think, a playfulness and a irreverence, not taking things too seriously. You know, I'll give you an example. I, I just the other day threw up, I love the original Willy Wonka movie with Gene Wilder. And so I threw up this animated GIF that is Gene Wilder sort of eating candy, saying, "The suspense is terrible. I hope it'll last." And I just threw that up and it was hilarious

• 1:52:39Tim Ferriss?

  to see how people responded. And because it's, it's so kind of oblique and vague that it acts as a Rorschach test for.

• 1:52:52Speaker 01

  Wait a second, did you throw this up like during the Trump like Capitol takeover today?

• 1:52:56Tim Ferriss?

  I, no, no, I threw, I threw it up right afterwards.

• 1:52:59Speaker 01

  Oh geez.

• 1:53:00Tim Ferriss?

  And.

• 1:53:01Speaker 01

  Fuel in the fire, dude.

• 1:53:03Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you say, yes, I mean, you say terrible timing. I think that I want to cultivate a insensitivity to personality by consensus. What I mean by that is if you look at a lot of people, I'm not going to name names, but if you look, yeah, no, no, I'm not going to.

• 1:53:21Speaker 01

  Manicured, manicured like feeds and stuff.

• 1:53:24Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you just look at personalities online over time who spend a lot of time on social, and they become caricatures of themselves because they have certain behaviors rewarded, certain behaviors punished, certain behaviors left unapplauded, and they start to warp and bend their behavior to fit the most applause. And they turn into these kind of creepy caricatures. I think that that ends up.

• 1:53:59Tim Ferriss?

  Inevitably bleeding over into their real lives, right? I mean, their, their off-screen lives. And I think that's really something I want to be hyper aware of, which is why I don't have the social on the phone. I'm using these like workarounds, like OnlyPalt to post stuff. And I want to kind of hold up a mirror that allows people to look at their own reactions also. Right? So I think that a lot of what I'll put up in 2021 will be Rorschach tests. And for people who don't know that, those are the ink blot tests where they would put lots of ink, fold a piece of paper, show it to someone and say, what do you see?

• 1:54:41Tim Ferriss?

  And, you know, they might see a murderer, they might see a butterfly, they might be something else. And then that is used as kind of a jumping off point for psychoanalysis. And that's not going to be everything I put up, but I just think that life is too short to take yourself too seriously. And so first and foremost, it's for me. But doing things that don't seem to have a point, doing things that are beautiful just because I think they're beautiful, they don't need to have some targeted outcome, ROI, or fill in the blank, right?

• 1:55:16Tim Ferriss?

  And just to kind of loosen my grip on whatever I think my identity is that's been constructed over such a long period of time. And let's not kid ourselves, like, identity can be revealed, but it's largely constructed, right? And it's just, you, I think we get so attached to our labels of what we are and what we aren't, what we do and what we don't do, that it's a, it's just a, I think it's a very socially reinforced trap that kind of constrains your awareness and sensitivity and openness to the world. So, yeah, more coyote.

• 1:55:57Speaker 01

  That's good. I mean, the world needs, I think the problem that we've fallen into with social media and part of the reason why I don't like having an account there is it just becomes, it makes me sad in some sense in that I see it's always the best version of someone's self. Like there's never any, if he feels very manufactured oftentimes and it's, it's like, it doesn't feel authentic in the way that, it's always about good times. There's never any like, any, I guess there has been more lately with some of the protests and so the stuff that's come out on there. But I mean, people, myself included, tend to put just the best version of yourself on there versus just letting it all hang out, which I guess is what, kind of what you're saying in a sense that you're, you're

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  just gonna have more fun with it than just trying to create the Tim Ferriss image up on, on social media.

• 1:56:49Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. And, you know, I don't feel like I've done too much of that. I mean, I do, I've, I very deliberately put out stuff that is true to me, that I think could irritate some percentage of my followers, just because I want to have some countervailing force against becoming this like dancing sock puppet on the internet. I do that to not become too attached to social feedback. But, you know, not to turn this into a discussion of, you know, the social dilemma, but if you are constantly exposed to these technologies,

• 1:57:28Tim Ferriss?

  like you are completely outgunned. You're just, you're completely outgunned by engineers and neuroscientists and research and development teams who have, for all intents and purposes, infinite resources to turn you into a little, a little rat in a Skinner box. Well, yeah, I want to keep.

• 1:57:52Speaker 01

  I love that like the, the AI is going to look at your feed and be like, I think Tim would like this. And they're like, oh shit, he posted a yellow pony. What the hell does he like now? Ah, damn it. Like you're really keeping them on their toes.

• 1:58:04Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I want to keep myself guessing too, right? Like I don't, I want to follow. Yeah, follow less of a script and.

• 1:58:11Speaker 01

  You've always been good at that, though. You've always been like every like one in every 10 of your Instagram posts. Everyone's like, what the hell's he? Why is there a picture of that? Like it's, it's not, it's clearly not that manufactured feed, which I've always appreciated.

• 1:58:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Well, I, what was it? I can't remember. Well, then maybe I don't even remember what it was, but I, back when we were both on the apps, I remember one of yours was like, and deleting in three, two, one.

• 1:58:41Tim Ferriss?

  You, to your, to your credit, sometimes when I get a little far afield, you're like, I think you should probably delete that. And I'll get a text from you, which I appreciate.

• 1:58:50Speaker 01

  Well, I can just tell, well, you, speaking of like you said about my gummies, I can tell when you're a little ham too. Every once in a while, one will sneak out there.

• 1:58:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's true. Yeah, it's true. It's dangerous, dangerous to drink and, uh, to drink and post. That's a dangerous habit.

• 1:59:07Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, well, it's good to see you, man. It's been too long.

• 1:59:10Speaker 01

  Good to see you too. Last little thing. I know we always like to throw a bunch of nuggets out there for people to, to check out.

• 1:59:18Speaker 01

  I, I want to recommend a documentary since we have still so much time and, and months ahead of us at home. My octopus teacher, I thought was, was great.

• 1:59:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yes. Second that. Yeah. Cool. Fantastic. Beautifully shot.

• 1:59:30Speaker 01

  Netflix.

• 1:59:32Tim Ferriss?

  What else you got?

• 1:59:33Speaker 01

  I liked, uh, the last dance, the Michael Jordan series. It's, I know it's a little bit old now, but it was fantastic.

• 1:59:39Tim Ferriss?

  Timeless though. Oh my God. If you're like, yeah, I'm a competitor. Like, okay, watch that. Watch that series.

• 1:59:45Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:59:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's, I mean, one of the best mini series I've seen in years. If you want another documentary, which is actually very uplifting, doesn't sound uplifting based on the name, but it's called Crip Camp. And it's, it begins with the story of a summer camp for crippled, I guess, young adults. And one, I want to say the grand jury award at Sundance a year or two ago, and it's, it's really outstanding. So that's, that's one I would recommend. Crip Camp also tends, it just puts a lot in perspective also. So I really enjoyed that. Hamilton's Pharmacopeia or Pharmacopeia just has a season three coming out now. For those who don't know, Hamilton Morris, he's been on my podcast.

• 2:00:33Tim Ferriss?

  Exceptional biochemist, really good at synthesizing all sorts of things. Also a very good storyteller and a hilarious, hilarious character unlike any other. Also happens to be the son of Errol Morris of Fog of War fame. And he's a really, really good narrator and editor of the series called Hamilton's Pharmacopeia, which you can find on Amazon Prime, you can find it on, I want to say Vice. And season three just came out and in each episode, he describes the the history of the culture and the biochemistry of a psychoactive drug. So it could be,

• 2:01:15Tim Ferriss?

  uh, could be, it could be meth, it could be angel dust, it could be LSD, it could be uh, 5-MO DMT, ketamine, ibogaine. And in each episode, he also then consumes or administers each of these drugs to himself or has them administered. Oh my God. And records the entire experience and describes the entire experience. So it's a, it's a really well done series and That is crazy. Will certainly also put some fear of God and healthy respect into the conversations around these compounds too. Not everything turns out well and

• 2:01:59Tim Ferriss?

  although he's usually fine, he's very seasoned, but there are also other people who agree to have their experiences filmed and they don't always turn out fantastically well. That ibogaine stuff, man, that scares me. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think you should be. Very, very, very, very, very exceptionally cautious with ibogaine and iboga. It's one of the few psychedelics that can kill you with cardiac complications. So that is definitely, as far as I'm concerned, personally off menu. Although it does have some incredible possible applications to opioid dependence and addiction.

• 2:02:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah, that's exactly it.

• 2:02:42Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, there's, if you want to see, there's a documentary called Dosed, D-O-S-E-D. I saw early versions of it, which I want to say came out in the last six to nine months, which does a good showcase in a sense, or provides an exploration of specifically opioid addiction and possible intervention with psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, things along those lines. And ibogaine, or iboga, I'm not sure which they used. Iboga would be the root, I want to say the root bark itself. Ibogaine would be the isolated alkaloid, or synthesized, depending on how they approach it. So Hamilton's pharmacopeia is worth a gander if you're interested in such things.

• 2:03:26Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 2:03:27Tim Ferriss?

  Anything else?

• 2:03:28Speaker 01

  I think that's it. That's all that I have. Oh, no, I have one more. Have you seen the new jazz movie, the cartoon?

• 2:03:38Tim Ferriss?

  Ah, one of my... Jazz movie?

• 2:03:40Speaker 01

  No, you know what I'm talking about, the cartoon that everyone's talking about.

• 2:03:43Tim Ferriss?

  Jazz movie? I have no idea what you're talking about.

• 2:03:45Speaker 01

  Hold on, you have to cut out the extra space on this, on the audio side.

• 2:03:51Tim Ferriss?

  Oh no, I want it to be as awkward as possible.

• 2:03:53Speaker 01

  No. Jazz cartoon Pixar.

• 2:03:59Tim Ferriss?

  Soul.

• 2:04:00Speaker 01

  Soul, yes.

• 2:04:01Tim Ferriss?

  Excellent. Yes. I wholeheartedly recommend people check that out.

• 2:04:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's a must. It's fantastic.

• 2:04:08Tim Ferriss?

  I twisted my friend's arm into signing up for Disney Plus to watch Soul, because it's the only place that I believe you can watch it.

• 2:04:15Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 2:04:15Tim Ferriss?

  And we watched it, and then I ended up watching The Mandalorian. And I was like, you know, if I had had the forethought to just use Disney Plus, I absolutely would have invested in Disney when it got smashed. Post COVID.

• 2:04:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's talk about the franchises they own.

• 2:04:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, Marvel, Nat Geo, Pixar, I mean, Star Wars, the lineup is just absurd.

• 2:04:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 2:04:41Tim Ferriss?

  Also, a lot of fun. Yeah. Mandalorian, Jon Favreau, congratulations, everybody involved. Congratulations.

• 2:04:48Speaker 01

  Fantastic show. Yeah, it's a great show.

• 2:04:51Tim Ferriss?

  And let's see, I'll also mention, if you're looking for a healthy snack, I'll mention a company that that I'm involved with just because I love their stuff and have had a chance to spend time with the co-founders who are husband and wife, Jake and Kuulani Muse in Hawaii, who run Maui Newi Venison. So.

• 2:05:12Speaker 01

  Oh dude, thank you for the box, by the way.

• 2:05:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you're welcome. You're welcome.

• 2:05:16Speaker 01

  Tim Tim sent me a box and I have been, I highly recommend the jerky. It's fantastic. Not the dog jerky. Toaster likes the dog jerky. I almost, almost broke into that because it came with everything else. And I just saw jerky and I almost went for it. And it looks good enough to eat, but.

• 2:05:33Tim Ferriss?

  The dog, the dog treats are Molly's favorite. The human jerky, the bars and everything are fantastic. And the leg medallions are just incredible. So it's.

• 2:05:44Speaker 01

  I haven't eaten that yet, but I'm going to. How's the bone broth, by the way? Cause I haven't tried it yet.

• 2:05:49Tim Ferriss?

  Bone broth is exceptional. It's extremely high protein and it's all outstanding. I mean, this is the, as far as I'm concerned, and as far as I can tell, the most nutrient dense meat you could possibly imagine. It is all wild harvested, although it's for those people who might be worried about game harvesting on public lands, it's all done on private lands on these large ranches because Axis deer in Hawaii are massively damaging as an invasive species. And they actually not just destroy the vegetation where it looks so bad that people think it's caused by wildfires, I mean, that amount of destruction. But that, that leads to erosion and runoff that also damages the, the coral reef and the marine

• 2:06:34Tim Ferriss?

  life on the Hawaiian islands. And this is specifically Maui. So the ecological cost is huge. And so they work with USDA inspectors. They hunt at night at long range with rifles. They only take headshots to make the kill as stress free as possible for the animals. The entire operation is like something out of special operations. It's unbelievable.

• 2:07:01Speaker 01

  It sounds like it. They're like night vision snipers with headshots.

• 2:07:05Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, they use infrared cameras.

• 2:07:07Speaker 01

  Have you hunted them?

• 2:07:09Tim Ferriss?

  I have. I didn't.

• 2:07:10Speaker 01

  Oh, so you went out there?

• 2:07:11Tim Ferriss?

  I did, yeah. I hunted with bow, also with rifle. But I feel, and I don't, I don't hunt often, but I, I think it is a profoundly, profoundly impactful way to reconnect with food.

• 2:07:27Speaker 01

  Oh dude, if you kill an animal and you, or you're, I'm sorry, if you eat an animal, but you won't kill it, you're way disconnected from nature.

• 2:07:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:35Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like I've, I've always told myself, I've never killed a cow, but like I do eat cow. So if I, if there was a way that I could do it in a humane fashion at, at a place that like I would, I would probably have to do it just because I'd be, I feel like a hypocrite otherwise.

• 2:07:53Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, you shouldn't have said that. I'm gonna find you a cow.

• 2:07:59Speaker 01

  I don't want to do it. I, I, I don't really want to do it at all, but I'm just saying that like, I just, I, I, I don't know. Do you know what I'm talking about? I just, I would feel awkward saying I'm willing to eat you at someone else's hand, but not, might be willing to do it myself.

• 2:08:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. And it's, it's, uh, you know, hunting's not for everybody. I was, I was strongly, strongly militantly anti-hunter and hunting up until I worked on the Four Hour Chef. And I decided for a portion of it that I wanted to do my best to learn to hunt and forage, to consume only those things that I procured myself. And had the opportunity while doing that deep dive to spend time with really hyper intelligent, responsible hunters like Stephen Rinella, who's written books on the American bison. He's written all sorts of incredible books on multiple topics to see that it.

• 2:09:02Tim Ferriss?

  As far as I'm concerned, can be approached in an extremely responsible, extremely eco-aware and thoughtful conscientious manner. It really can. So, you know, the meat that I have here and the meat that I ate when I was, when I was hunting in Hawaii was from what we got that day, right? And I feel very good about that. I feel very good about it.

• 2:09:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's, that's the, that's the, the evil side of hunting, obviously, is both on the species that, that are in low numbers, which obviously is just a massive no-no. And then also for the trophy of it, you know, like, like, I, I really respect the people that have learned how to do the full, you know, nose-to-tail processing of an animal and to make use of, of everything they possibly can. It's, it's really, it's really quite cool.

• 2:09:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So, so if people are interested, check out the video on MauiNuiVenison.com. The video is incredibly well done. It's done with an award-winning cinematographer and it shows the kind of ethos and mission and how they approach all this stuff. It's incredible. So Maui, M-A-U-I, N-U-I-Venison.com and people can check it out. It's, it is the startup and, and you know, Kevin, I've made basically no direct startup investments in the last handful of years and been helping these guys. It's a very tough business. It's the best product in the world as far as I'm concerned. And I am so enamored of this company and

• 2:10:37Tim Ferriss?

  the family and the people behind it and the ethos. It's just like, it checks all the boxes for me. So

• 2:10:42Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 2:10:43Tim Ferriss?

  Hope people check it out.

• 2:10:43Speaker 01

  Your, your food investing is hilarious to me, by the way, because like I would say on tech, fantastic track record.

• 2:10:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:50Speaker 01

  Then, then the cricket protein, remember you did those bars?

• 2:10:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:54Speaker 01

  But the, the funny thing about that is then they went and started a new company.

• 2:10:58Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's killing it. Magic Spoon.

• 2:11:00Speaker 01

  That is killing it. Magic Spoon is killing it. And you unfortunately missed out on that one.

• 2:11:05Tim Ferriss?

  I did, I did miss, but you know, it's, it's, I'm doing okay with food, man. I'm doing actually really, really well.

• 2:11:12Speaker 01

  That's the only two investments I know you have, so maybe you have a handful more than that.

• 2:11:14Tim Ferriss?

  Well, well, Blue Bottle did fine for both of us, right? Blue Bottle did fantastically well. And Hugh, the chocolate makers, were just acquired, I think the announcement was last week, by Mondelies. And I was an advisor to, well, I suppose I still am an advisor to Hugh. So that was also a really fantastic.

• 2:11:37Speaker 01

  I'm just giving you shit. I mean, like literally 90% of the deals that we do, like go to zero, then that's totally fine. That's the name of the game on, on the early stage investing.

• 2:11:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. If I could choose one that I really want to not just survive but thrive, like Maui Nui would be at the very top of the list, just because the, the sort of benefits to community and ecology and like the way that they're walking the talk in a beautiful philosophical sense is just, it's rare. It's super, super rare.

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  So that's awesome. I will say that in with the product that I have tried so far, I haven't tried at all. If you're scared of the idea of venison, you shouldn't be because it's very damn tasty jerky. Like you would, you would be.

• 2:12:20Tim Ferriss?

  It's not gamey at all.

• 2:12:21Speaker 01

  Really surprised, not gamey at all. And then I will say Magic Spoon for people that are like old school cereal, like fruity loops, but want a keto friendly snack.

• 2:12:31Tim Ferriss?

  Do you say fruity loops, you 90 year old?

• 2:12:33Speaker 01

  No, they have like fruity loops, like flavor type cereal.

• 2:12:36Tim Ferriss?

  Fruit loops.

• 2:12:40Speaker 01

  Oh, sorry. You know what? Fruity, fruity loops was the DJ software. Do you remember that? It's how you can make, it was how you made loops. It was something like that.

• 2:12:48Tim Ferriss?

  I got it. Yeah. So Magic Spoon, I mean, I have an entire pantry full of their stuff and I'm really thrilled for the founders. They've done extremely good job of making a great product. So yeah, if you, if you liked Cocoa Puffs, Fruit Loops, these types of cereals as a kid, you can have. Cereal that tastes very much the same, that is basically zero carb, super low net carb, with high protein and enjoy it with your real milk or fake milk of choice. And it's fantastic. My favorite is the chocolate. I really like the chocolate favorite, the cocoa, I guess.

• 2:13:28Speaker 01

  They had one too, that was like a cinnamon one that was quite good. Anyway, yeah, good stuff.

• 2:13:33Tim Ferriss?

  Cool. Coolio, coolio, man. Well, do you want to tell people where they can find you?

• 2:13:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, eventually this year, I'm going to start up on the Instagram again. That's probably the best place. I'm just at Kevin Rose. You can find me there. And I also have a podcast that I put out one episode about every three months. It's not that regular, but I do have really good guests. I just had

• 2:13:55Tim Ferriss?

  You have some great ones.

• 2:13:56Speaker 01

  I had Andy Ratcliffe on most recently, who's founder of Benchmark and also Wealthfront, Benchmark Capital being one of the most successful venture capital firms of all time. And fantastic interview about the importance of a diversification. And yeah, just like it's, he's a brilliant, brilliant man. Have you ever had Andy on your show?

• 2:14:17Tim Ferriss?

  You know, I have, but I had it via Mike Maples show and he did an episode where Andy was featured. And so we published that audio on my podcast. Yeah, smart guy, extremely smart guy.

• 2:14:31Speaker 01

  I wish he would write a book, man. He's one of those guys you could just sit down and talk to. And everything that you throw at him, he has a different take on. And most of the time he's right. And he was like, this needs to be some, like, you know how Ray Dalio put out his principles book? Like, Andy needs his version of that, you know, it's like, well, I tried to talk him into it. He wouldn't do it. He doesn't want to do it.

• 2:14:52Tim Ferriss?

  Books are a pain in the ass, but he could get a ghostwriter slash collaborator and that person would just interview him like a few hours a day for a week straight. And then they would have all they needed. So.

• 2:15:01Speaker 01

  There we go. Andy, if you're listening, make it happen.

• 2:15:04Tim Ferriss?

  All right, Kev, Kev. Well, it's lovely to see you.

• 2:15:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, good to see you as well. Let's hang in in person this year, man. Let's make it happen.

• 2:15:12Tim Ferriss?

  Let's make it work. Long road trip. I'll get in my armored Marauder vehicle and make my way across country to visit you in the forest. Maybe that's the next move.

• 2:15:21Speaker 01

  Do some forest bathing together.

• 2:15:25Speaker 01

  It just means walking in the forest.

• 2:15:26Tim Ferriss?

  Sounds exotic and erotic. I can't wait.

• 2:15:29Speaker 01

  I mean, we've done some of that in Japan.

• 2:15:31Tim Ferriss?

  That's true.

• 2:15:32Speaker 01

  We need to get back to Japan. That would be fun.

• 2:15:35Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, man. Well, step by step. Let's figure out domestic travel first and then we can figure out Japan.

• 2:15:39Speaker 01

  Fair enough.

• 2:15:40Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:41Speaker 01

  All right.

• 2:15:42Tim Ferriss?

  Natsukashina. Okay, man. Well, to be continued and much love to you and the family, my man.

• 2:15:48Speaker 01

  Same to you and everyone out there. Please stay safe and healthy and take care of yourselves.

• 2:15:55Speaker 02

  Bye bye.

• 2:15:57Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday? That provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend and Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance.

• 2:16:38Tim Ferriss?

  And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by FreshBooks. When you're running your own business, it's easy to get weighed down by work that doesn't get you paid. That's why I love FreshBooks and have been recommending them for years on this podcast. It's an all-in-one accounting and invoicing solution built for small business owners like you. I've polled tons and tons of my listeners and readers who have brought up FreshBooks over and over again.

• 2:17:20Tim Ferriss?

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• 2:18:04Tim Ferriss?

  But if you ever need a bit of help wrapping your head around something, they have an award-winning Toronto-based support team who are always happy to help. So try FreshBooks free for 30 days, no credit card required. Go to freshbooks.com/tim and enter Tim Ferriss in the "How did you hear about us?" section. That's freshbooks.com/tim and enter my name, Tim Ferriss, two R's, two S's, in the "How did you hear about us?" section. One more time, that is freshbooks.com/tim. This episode is brought to you by Magic Spoon. Magic Spoon is a brand new cereal that I eat just about every day that is low carb, high protein and zero sugar. I just ate a huge bowl of their cocoa flavor about an hour ago after a short workout.

• 2:18:47Tim Ferriss?

  Magic Spoon cereal has received a lot of attention since launching last year. Time Magazine included it in their list of best inventions in 2019 and Forbes called it "the future of cereal." It tastes just like your favorite sugary cereal from childhood, remember that? But it's actually good for you. Each serving has 11 grams of protein, 3 grams of net carbs, 0 grams of sugar and only 110 calories. It's also gluten-free, grain-free, keto-friendly, soy-free and GMO-free. All the things. It's delicious. And I don't say that lightly because most of this healthy version of X stuff is not delicious, but these guys really nail it. Magic Spoon has nailed it. It comes in your favorite traditional cereal flavors like cocoa, frosted and blueberry.

• 2:19:29Tim Ferriss?

  You can try them all by grabbing a variety pack at magic spoon.com/tim or you can just grab a box or a bunch of boxes. I'm going to order some more today of the cocoa, which is my personal favorite. But there's a new contender for favorite flavor because they- Just launched two limited edition flavors, Honey Nut and Peanut Butter, which are delicious. I am a sucker for peanut butter and it is outstanding. So I think cocoa and peanut butter are my two new favorite flavors. And fun fact, my friends are also obsessed with Magic Spoon. One of the podcast's most popular guests, Dr. Peter Tia, routinely crushes six to seven servings at a time. That's a lot with no glycemic response. He's looked at this with a glucometer. He likes it so much, he invested.

• 2:20:13Tim Ferriss?

  Other friends, two very fine gentlemen and also past podcast guests, Kevin Rose and Ryan Holiday, also invested. So check it out, see what the buzz is about. Go to magic spoon.com/tim and grab a variety pack or cocoa, which is my favorite, or anything else. But see what strikes your fancy. Why not? Try a variety pack and be sure to use code TIM at checkout. My listeners, that's you. Get free shipping and a 100% happiness guarantee. So if you're not a fan, if you don't love it, they'll give you a full refund, no questions asked. Again, check it out. Magic spoon.com/tim. That's magic spoon.com/tim. Take a look.