pplpleasr | Layer Zero

pplpleasr is the digital artist who exploded into the NFT & DeFi space after creating the x * y = k visual animation announcement for Uniswap v3. The NFT was sold for over half a million dollars, and all the proceeds were donated to charity. Along the way, pleasrDAO was formed and has emerged as a collective for curating digital culture artifacts. pplpleasr’s story winds through Fortune Magazine covers and imposter syndrome, all with a down-to-earth feel and a charitable heart. She is emblematic of what we love about crypto culture, and the pleasr spirit is one that this entire space aspires to. ------ 📣 OPOLIS | YOUR CRYPTO CAREER https://bankless.cc/Opolis ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ 🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/ ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum 🍵 MATCHA | DECENTRALIZED EXCHANGE AGGREGATOR https://bankless.cc/Matcha 🔐 LEDGER | SECURE YOUR ASSETS https://bankless.cc/Ledger 🧙‍♀️ ALCHEMIX | SELF-PAYING LOANS http://bankless.cc/Alchemix ------ Topics Covered: 0:00 intro 4:00 ppl pleasr 8:42 background & diablo 15:01 crypto twitter vs blizzcon 21:38 x * y = k 28:06 sale, hype, & charity 35:05 donating & dividends 42:43 life trajectory 47:02 pleasrdao 54:35 fortune cover 1:01:00 identity & nft brain 1:08:32 social life & magnum opus 1:15:15 pleasr irl 1:21:17 lessons 1:26:58 closing ------ Resources: pplpleasr on Twitter https://twitter.com/pplpleasr1?s=20 pleasrDAO https://twitter.com/PleasrDAO?s=20 ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:07David Hoffman?

  Welcome to Layer Zero. Layer Zero is a podcast of unscripted conversations with the people that make up the Ethereum community. Crypto is built by code, but is composed by people, and each individual member of the crypto community has their own story to tell. Cypherpunks understood that the code they write impacts the people that use it, and Layer Zero focuses on the people behind the code, because Ethereum is people all the way down, and it always has been. Today, I'm talking with the artist People Pleaser, who is the renowned artist behind the Uniswap X times Y equals K animation that sold for almost half a million dollars, and 100% of that revenue was donated to charity. People Pleaser is also the inspiration for Pleaser DAO, which has just become a gargantuan of just a DAO that is sucking up all of the cool

• 0:51David Hoffman?

  cultural artifacts of the world. And People Pleaser has really led the charge into what it means to become an NFT artist, but also an NFT artist that resonates with some of the ethos and the culture of the cryptocurrency space, and has truly become focused on generating NFT art and using that skill, that artistic talent, to direct money into charities. Throughout her collection of work, she's donated over $2 million of total value into various charities from her work, and really believes in making sure that we instantiate some of these values for the long term of crypto, and not just focus on this whole moon, boy, number go up,

• 1:34David Hoffman?

  100x bag culture. So I really appreciate that angle from People Pleaser. And overall, I had a ton of fun finding out what it was like to be an artist before crypto, what it was like for her to get into crypto, and now become a very prolific, hard worker in the world of crypto art and NFTs. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with People Pleaser. Before we get to that conversation, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. Arbitrum is an Ethereum scaling solution that's going to completely change how we use DeFi and NFTs. And now, it's live and has over 100 projects deployed. Gas fees on Ethereum L1 Suck. Too many people want to use Ethereum and it doesn't have enough capacity for all of us. And that's why teams like Arbitrum have been hard at work developing Layer 2 solutions

• 2:18David Hoffman?

  that makes transactions on Ethereum cheap and instant. Arbitrum increases Ethereum's throughput by orders of magnitude at a fraction of the cost of what we are used to paying. When interacting with Arbitrum, you can get the performance of a centralized exchange while tapping into Ethereum's level of security and decentralization. This is why people are calling this Ethereum's broadband moment, where we get to add performance onto decentralization and security. If you're a developer and you want to save on gas costs and overall make a better user experience, go to developers offchainlabs.com to get started building on Arbitrum. And if you're a user, keep an eye out for your favorite DeFi apps being built on Arbitrum. Many DeFi applications on the Ethereum L1 are migrating over to Layer 2s like Arbitrum and some are even skipping over the Layer 1s entirely and deploying directly on Layer 2.

• 3:02David Hoffman?

  There's so many apps coming online to Arbitrum, so go to bridge.arbitrum.io now and start bridging over your ETH or any of the tokens listed and start having the DeFi or NFT experience that you've always wanted. Living a bankless life requires taking control over your own private keys. Not your keys, not your crypto. That's why so many in the bankless nation already have their Ledger hardware wallet, which makes proper private key management a breeze. But the Ledger ecosystem is much more than just a secure hardware wallet. Ledger is the combination of the Ledger hardware wallet and the Ledger Live app. And if you're used to seeing all of your crypto services and favorite DeFi apps all in one spot, Ledger Live is where you want to be. Not only does Ledger let you buy your crypto assets straight from the app, but it also hooks into all of the DeFi apps and services that you're used to.

• 3:47David Hoffman?

  Using Ledger Live, you can stake your ETH and Lido, swap on DEXs like Paraswap, or display your NFTs with Rainbow. You can also use Wallet Connect inside of Ledger Live to connect to all the other DeFi apps that keep coming online. DeFi never stops growing and the Ledger Live app grows alongside with it. So click the link in the show notes to see all of the DeFi apps that Ledger Live has and stay tuned as more apps come online. And if you don't have a Ledger hardware wallet, what are you even waiting for? Go to ledger.com, grab a Ledger, download Ledger Live and get all of your DeFi apps all in one space. Hey, people pleaser. What's up?

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 4:25David Hoffman?

  How's it going?

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Not bad. I was literally just thinking about how the last time I did one of these was also the first time and it was the first time we had ever met and it's crazy now because what it's been like eight months or something.

• 4:39David Hoffman?

  Yeah, eight months since the Uniswap X times Y equals K drop. And then that was my like introduction into me realizing I very much missed out on joining Pleaser Dow before Pleaser Dow was Pleaser Dow. And so, yeah, for the listeners, the backstory is X times Y equals K, People Pleaser's very famous animation of Uniswap V3 that came out around the same time, made a bunch of storm because a bunch of people got into a group together, pooled their funds to buy this thing. And really, the story was really, really cool. So I pulled People Pleaser into a quick interview as well as Lightning Q-SAC. And that's where I met People Pleaser. And now I've met her in real life a number of times.

• 5:21David Hoffman?

  And so a lot of these relationships that people listen to on podcasts are actually, people are watching them form in real time, which is kind of cool.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I think that's super cool. And yeah, I mean, so much has happened, I feel like, in the past eight months.

• 5:36David Hoffman?

  Yeah, especially in the world of NFTs and definitely your career, which is definitely something that we're going to tap into here on this Layer Zero. But first, before we get there, People Pleaser, what's up with that name? How'd that come about?

• 5:51Speaker 01

  It's funny because this name actually came before I was sort of involved with crypto. And it was,

• 6:00Speaker 01

  you know, recently, I guess like in August or something that I revealed in my sort of like op-ed that had been published was that why I sort of got into DeFi last summer and everything was because I, during the pandemic, was supposed to go get a job or I got a job at Apple, but then they rescinded it because of the pandemic. And then so I ended up basically unemployed and needed to look for a job and stuff. And so during this time, well, this was like probably in early 2020. And then So I sort of just to fill my time, like my free time while I was job hunting, I created an art Instagram. And then at the time, I was just looking at all these like cool artists

• 6:45Speaker 01

  online and they all had like, I guess, like cool artist names. And then, you know, my real name is not particularly interesting or unique. And then so I thought that I needed also an artist name. I mean, I never thought that it was gonna go anywhere when I created this. I was just like, ah, I'm just gonna create something, you know, almost like, it's kind of like the equivalent of being on CT and creating an alt or like an anon account, right? And then so I was looking for a name and my personality, just, I guess, in general, is very much a people pleaser type. And then so it just kind of came to me on the spot. And I just thought that, oh, I can always change it later anyways, if I wanted to. But I guess that didn't end up

• 7:27Speaker 01

  happening. I didn't have like time to do that. But yeah, and the way, like, the way that it's spelled is like, super weird and people get it wrong all the time. And the reason for that is literally just because at the time, it was really trendy to do like, names that didn't have any vowels in it. And then so I wanted to just do like PPL, PL, SR. But then that one was already taken on Instagram. So then I just slowly added vowels back in until it like, wasn't taken. And that's literally why it's felt super weird. And I've seen like, every possible different combination of like, the wrong spelling now on Twitter, like, up to date, so.

• 8:04David Hoffman?

  That's, and when you were coming up with this pseudonym, this was, you were not in crypto at all. This was, you are pre-inventuring into crypto, right?

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, well, I actually had, like, bought and, you know, was investing in crypto since 2017. But I guess I wasn't in crypto in the sense that I wasn't like, an active, like contributor or a participant. I, yeah, it's true. Like, at the time when I created my Instagram account, I didn't even have a crypto Twitter account. I just had like, a regular Twitter account from like, you know, 2012, that I used to like, occasionally complain to companies to or something.

• 8:42David Hoffman?

  That's pretty funny. So let's keep on going backwards because a lot of your skills that you are now injecting into the crypto world came from your actual career. So what was your career like before crypto?

• 8:55Speaker 01

  So when I graduated college, I immediately just started working as a visual effects artist or like in 3D animation. And so I worked for a bunch of different, like either feature animation studios or visual effects studios. And I worked on some movies, like Batman versus Superman, Wonder Woman, Star Trek Beyond. And then, yeah, a bunch of other like animated movies. So

• 9:22David Hoffman?

  What would you actually do for these things? Were you, what part of these movies were you animating?

• 9:27Speaker 01

  So I was in this department called lighting and composing, which is, as everybody knows, like 3D animation or like computer graphics is extremely laborious and very, very like specialized in every, every single department. And then so, you know, you have something like, let's say, you need to create Godzilla, right? So you start with like the model. So somebody, you know, just like modeling something in real life with clay will literally go and like sculpt Godzilla or like, you know, what they think is a Godzilla. And then that's the model that's created. And then it'll go to, you know, sort of like either texturing and shading, which is where somebody determines like, I don't know, like just how

• 10:09Speaker 01

  sort of like, like what Godzilla's like skin texture is going to look like, you know, what colors, that kind of stuff. And then it's going to go through all these processes of like rigging, animation, which is where you like fit a skeleton on the model. And then suddenly like Godzilla can make moves and then the animator will then go and keyframe all those moves so that, you know, let's say Godzilla is like throwing a punch, then like the animator will do that. And then they pass it to like, sometimes like there's like FX, which is the department that does like all the smoke and debris or like explosions, whatever. And then after that, all of that is done, they pass it to somebody called in lighting, which is like what I did where when they pass it to me, it doesn't really

• 10:50Speaker 01

  have like, you know how if you see like 3D programs and everything is like all like gray and stuff like, that's basically what it looks like when it comes to me. And then I would be the type, I would be the person who first renders the scene and also determines like what the mood and setting and everything of the scene should look like. And then so I do that and then I send out the renders. So then all of that 3D becomes 2D again, because it becomes like 2D renders. And then just rendering frames like, you know, typically at 24 frames per second and then however many seconds a shot is. And then after all those frames are rendered out, then it goes through the last department called compositing. So sometimes I do that, sometimes other people do that.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  And it's just sort of like putting on all the like finishing touches. So I'm just kind of like the person who grabs everything and like puts it together, make sure it looks good and then we ship it out. Yeah. So I was doing that for many, many years. And then before like I got into crypto, my last job was at Blizzard on their cinematics team. And then I was working on the Diablo four games, not in-game cinematic, but like the ones that like look like movies.

• 12:01David Hoffman?

  Yeah, the cutscenes, the Diablo cutscenes.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:04David Hoffman?

  And Blizzard is also like famous as a company for making really, really elaborate like lore and, and cutscenes. So, and also as a fan of Diablo, and I think there's a lot of crypto people that are like use Diablo two as their like crypto gaming metaphors. Like, oh my God, what if, what if Diablo two had in-game assets? I think there's like a large like overlap between like Diablo fans and crypto fans. So having, having you is like working on the Diablo cinematics and then coming in over into crypto is actually kind of fortunate, I would say.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  I mean, I would hope so. It's funny because I, I wasn't a huge Blizzard gamer. I do play games, but I didn't play that many Blizzard games. It's mainly just because they're kind of hard and I'm like not good at games. So when I was interviewing with Blizzard, they're like, so what, which games do you play? I was like, uh, I mean, I don't really play any of them. But obviously, you know, I do know about the games. I have also played Diablo four, which apparently is really similar to Diablo two, but.

• 13:06David Hoffman?

  You've played Diablo four?

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Huge flags.

• 13:11David Hoffman?

  I have it. It was scheduled. I had it on like the month, January 2022. It's like blocked off time off my calendar and then I realized that they they canceled it or they didn't cancel it, but they they kicked it out.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I'm not surprised. I don't think it's coming up for a while.

• 13:25David Hoffman?

  Oh, no. Oh, no. Breaking the alpha sadly here on the show. What was your favorite part about making the Diablo cinematics? Was there any part about the cinematics that that really stuck out to you?

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Have you seen it?

• 13:38David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  So it's the one that, yeah, debuted at BlizzCon in 2019 and, um, I mean, I think it's just, I really liked working on that one because it was so gory. It was just so dark. I think they actually, they changed it so that it became a little bit less messed up because the original version was even more dark and gory. They were like, okay, this is maybe a little bit too much. But I mean, I really liked it because, yeah, it kind of brought it back to the whole sort of vibe of Diablo two of like the very dark lore. And Lilith was one of the main characters at the end. She looked really cool. So and I just liked how the entire, it was about like nine minutes, I think, the sort of like the short film, I guess.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  The entire short film, like all the way up until the end was just like this constant ramp up. You know, it's just like very dark and weird. And at the end, there's like this mega grand entrance of Lilith and the music is pretty crazy. So I think the, yeah, I mean, obviously it was really interesting to work on the aesthetics of it, but nothing could compare with like the feeling of watching it on the big screen for the first time at BlizzCon because you're actually just sitting in a crowd of people who are so like passionate about this stuff and like hearing their reaction to like the whole thing was just, it was pretty, pretty cool.

• 14:58David Hoffman?

  How have, uh, have you been able to find similar experiences with your NFT art in crypto?

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Honestly, I think, yeah, like with X times Y equals K specifically, you know, a lot of people always say, oh, like, it's so cool that it sold for, you know, however much. And I mean, yeah, definitely, you know, and everything about Pleaser Dow was super cool. But I think my favorite moment of, you know, sort of like that moment, yes, didn't even have anything to do with the fact that it sold as an NFT. Because earlier that week, before I even announced that it was going to be an NFT, when Uniswap just tweeted it out without any context, just to read everybody's comments and responses, was a similar feeling to watching, I mean, obviously, it's not like a premiere or whatever, but it's like the virtual version of like watching something

• 15:51Speaker 01

  at BlizzCon and seeing everybody's reactions, right? And so that was really rewarding. I thought that was definitely the coolest part.

• 15:59David Hoffman?

  Do you have any sense of like, the differences between what the reaction of what crypto Twitter was versus the crowd at BlizzCon? Like, what were, what were the crowd of people at BlizzCon really focused on that they really liked? And then what were the crowd of the crypto Twitter people focus on? Were there any differences there?

• 16:17Speaker 01

  I think it's just, well, obviously crypto Twitter being online, you're watching all of the reactions happen in real time and all of the comments and stuff. And I think, and also that the animation is just so much shorter. So people were really, really, I mean, I, I think it's the funniest. Some people are like, oh, what did I just watch? Or like, what does this mean? Because it was like so vague at the time. And then watching people pick it apart, like, you know, looking for any tiniest hint of like Easter egg. And definitely really cool that people spotted the V3 at the end in the stars. Whereas the viewing experience for the Blizzard cinematic was way more like, almost like watching a movie or something, where everyone was very, very quiet and focused, you know, the entire

• 17:02Speaker 01

  way through. And then at the end, they're like, whoa. And then, you know, they stand up and it was like standing ovation or whatever. So, yeah.

• 17:10David Hoffman?

  So with your time working at Blizzard, you, the way that you illustrated it kind of made you feel like you were very, a part of a very specific team that does a very specific job. But my gist with the Uniswap V3 animation is you are much more of like the, the total end to end like conductor of the whole entire art. So what, what, what about Uniswap V3 and your first introduction to, you know, being your, your own artist, being the end to end artist? I know there were other people that worked on the V3 animation with you, but I think with this one, you just had a lot more control. What, what was, what was it like to like, take the shackles off of your, your nine to five, five corporate job and start to actually do art for art's sake?

• 17:52Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's really nice because it's just like, um, you don't have to gain anybody's trust, right? Like, and also, you know, the Uniswap team were also just extremely trusting in my vision and they were just like, ah, do your thing. And, you know, because of course, like the, the animation itself is, uh, like I said before, was pretty vague, um, at least at first glance, right? So, um, it's, it's cool that people would just be like, because, you know, maybe somebody who's more conservative might watch that and just be like, I don't even understand what this is promoting. Or, you know, and I'm really grateful that they don't try to push that kind of, you know, old school, like very narrative, literal type of art direction on me, you know,

• 18:35Speaker 01

  to make it like a commercial, because I really don't like that, because really to me, it was more about creating a piece of art, right? Um, and so, yeah, I mean, there were three other people who worked with me on it. But I, I'd say I probably did like, you know, closer to like seven, like 70, 80% of it. Um, you know, the whole thing was just my vision, but it's just more of like the execution of it, um, given the time constraints and everything. And then there's maybe, yeah, like I was saying, within animation, there's specific, very specific parts that, um, you know, somebody who's a professional in that field would do a lot better than me. So for example, the movement of the unicorn in the piece looked so natural and cool because my really good friend, who now I work with frequently called Marion.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  I used to work with in London and she's a professional animator. And so she animated like, I don't know if you've seen like Detective Pikachu, the movie, like she animated a bunch of the Pikachu shots. You know, she's just like so good at bringing these things to life and just giving them such a natural movement. And then I also worked with this guy Hafid, who was helping me sort of do like all the simulations for particles. You know, that has to do with more like, yeah, it's like generative simulated stuff within the video. And then obviously, lastly, there was Isaac Slieder, who did the score of the music.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  And so what happened was I originally made the animatic against this, this track by this artist named Pariah that already exists. And then I was like, this is the, I sort of like cut it to the way that I wanted it. And I was like, this is the kind of look and feel that we're going for. And then I sent it to Isaac and then we had some back and forths where he would send me the track. And then I'd give him notes and be like, okay, I feel like it should feel more like this. So yeah, it's like on top of just making the animation, I also felt like it was the first time that I was doing more of like a director role. So that was definitely a very cool experience and super rewarding. But when you're working on like real movies and stuff, you know, when you're in a team of like literally hundreds of people. Yeah, obviously it's a very different experience.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  At the very least, I feel like with the Blizzard cinematic, the Diablo four one, it was a vision that sort of aligned with mine. So the end product is something that I also liked. Whereas definitely that doesn't apply to every single like other movie or feature animation that I've worked on. So yeah, when you're working on something that, you know, you don't think is sort of like aligned with your taste, it's a lot less motivating and feels way more like a job.

• 21:12David Hoffman?

  Did you like stepping into that director role with Uniswap with a X times Y equals K animation? Or is that like, okay, I did it. I don't really want to do that anymore again. That was, I'm glad I did that one time, but maybe back to the artist. How do you feel about like director role nowadays?

• 21:27Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, I really enjoyed it. I think as long as you have a solid team and then clients that really trust you, um, I would totally do it again.

• 21:37David Hoffman?

  How, um, how did you actually convince? Cause as far as I remember, correct me if I'm wrong, but like this was like you were donating your time towards Uniswap, right? They were not compensating you. Uh, and I think perhaps that's also true for the other team members. Uh, and so is that, is that not, is that not right?

• 21:53Speaker 01

  No, that's not true. Um, so actually Uniswap, um, did pay me for making the animation. Um, and then, uh, and so, and then obviously with the people that I worked with, um, they, they were paid to sort of like do the work as well. Um, but it was very, very like, it's like not, not a lot of money, like at all.

• 22:16David Hoffman?

  Right. Yeah. It's just to, just to get the ball rolling. Um, okay. So my, my, my question was going to be, how did you convince all these people to like, um, sign up and, and, uh, commit to the labor to, to produce this thing. But I think perhaps maybe some of your answer was like, because it's cool. Maybe because I like it's, there's the clout there of like helping the Uniswap team produce the animation. But to talk about the incentive, but for you and all the, all the team members.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's funny because, um, I mean, all of those team members, and this is also, I actually was just thinking about this yesterday where even to this day now, a lot of people that I collaborate and work with are people from my past life, as in like pre crypto life, let's say. Um, and so thankfully for my, I guess maybe it's either my people pleasing personality or something that I have built up really, um, great and solid relationships with people in the past. And so, um, yeah, when I, for example, when I approached them for the Uniswap thing, uh, other than Isaac, who was doing the music, because he is, um, Tayo's friend. So Tayo from Uniswap, um, brought Isaac in for the music, but for the, you know, the two sort of like animators that I was working with, they're my connections. They didn't

• 23:26Speaker 01

  know what Uniswap was. So, um, they were just doing it. I mean, obviously Mary and I used to work with her. So, you know, she was doing it because, you know, we have this like trust and a great relationship and then, um, her feed. I found actually through like an online community, I interviewed a few people. But he was just down to do it because he liked my vision and then he thought that when I described the vision of the the piece to him, he felt like it was really cool and he just wanted to do it. So yeah, I think I'm just blessed. So blessed that, you know, neither of them knew how big it was gonna be or anything. And they were just doing it based on trust and merit and yeah, cool factor.

• 24:03David Hoffman?

  Did they get crypto pilled in this process? Are they now crypto people as well?

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Um, I think they both got crypto pilled in the process. Yes, they're both um, very much like more and more diving into crypto, um, and NFTs. And yeah, I think they both like hold crypto now, which is great.

• 24:21David Hoffman?

  What do you think did it for them? Was it the, just the recognition of the community and appreciation of the art? Was it the fact that the art itself sold for almost half a million dollars? Like what, what do you think really brought them in?

• 24:32Speaker 01

  I think, um, probably, you know, I think it's just like this world is so intriguing right now. And definitely had to do with the fact that crypto has, I feel like gone a lot more mainstream this year as well. That you can't help but just pay more attention and look into it, right? And obviously, you know, with me talking about it, I think it, it brings a lot more things to attend to their attention as well. Whereas, you know, maybe like surfing the web, you would see that a little bit less. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like it, it's just sort of like, it definitely wasn't like overnight. It wasn't like after the Uniswap video and they're like, all right, I'm in. How do I get involved?

• 25:16Speaker 01

  It was definitely more of like a transitional process. Um, so yeah, I think it's like a slow red pill.

• 25:24David Hoffman?

  When was the decision made that all the revenue from the Uniswap animation would go to charity? How was that decision made?

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Uh, beforehand, I, I, I had made that decision. So I literally, I remember I was so, I was like so nervous. Cause I mean, at the time, actually, it was just like, I was just gonna make this animation because, um, you know, anybody who had been familiar with my work before was just, I would make these animations for different DeFi protocols. And then pretty much all the utility was, was just they would post on Twitter. Um, and that, that was it. Right. And then so around this time was when NFT started sort of like really blowing up. And, um, because I had been so busy, because I did sort of like list and sell NFTs, like even back in DeFi summer and stuff. But, um, it was never really my focus because I guess I wasn't really like famous then.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  So it's like harder to sell NFTs. Um, and then so my main sort of like stream of income was just doing these commissions for DeFi protocols. And then so at the time I felt a little bit of FOMO thinking about like, oh, I had spent all my time, like making all these animations for DeFi protocols, but I had missed out on whole like NFT wave. Um, or at least I just, I didn't commit much time or like resources into developing myself as an NFT artist or a brand, things like that. And then so I just like, thought of, oh, what if I sort of like, uh, double purpose this video by, you know, obviously the original purpose of making it for Unisop so that they could tweet it out with the V3 announcement.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  But also if I could drop it as an NFT and then, um, so like a multiple, multiple reasons. Um, first, like my family sort of like values and stuff that I grew up with. Um, my parents are pretty big on charity or volunteer work. So that's just something that I've always like been used to. And then also that, um, I had always wanted to do. So when NFTs even like, you know, first was like came into my radar, I was just like, oh, I would love to do like charity drops or something. But being that I wasn't famous at the time, you know, let alone feeding myself, I don't think I had enough sort of like firepower to be doing any kind of like charity drops. And then so that was just something that I wanted to do.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  And also because of the fact that Unisop had already paid me, um, to do the work. So I felt like there was no, no purpose for me to take more money from this piece. And then so I just kind of like was really nervous, but came to them with this proposal like, hey, I think it could be, um, cool if we drop this as an NFT and then donate it to charity and then. Um, you know, I was like really nervous the night before because I was like, oh, what if they say no, blah, blah, blah. And then, I mean, they were just like, cool. Yeah, let's do it. And then so that's like how it happened.

• 28:06David Hoffman?

  Do you think that how much, this is going to probably be an impossible question to answer, but how much do you think that the hype around and the ultimate price? That was discovered for the X times Y equals K animation, which I think was $430,000, I think. So a very large number. Do you think that, how much do you think of that, that price, that value was added because it was ultimately going to be donated to charity? Do you have any speculation on that?

• 28:32Speaker 01

  Um, I actually don't. It's so hard to say. Um, I, I, I almost feel like maybe it added a little bit, but. You know, at the end of the day, I think that a lot of the value came from, um, sort of, it was a combination of like. All these people in the DeFi community who I had like previously worked with or were familiar with my work. Um, who just sort of like, wanted to, I guess, like, support me because it's almost like they feel like I'm like one of them. And then at the time, I think the NFT space was also very much like. Still kind of a separate community, right? And then so they were like, kind of like, I was like their, I don't know, like poster child or something. And then so it was really nice that.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  I think everybody wanted to support that and also combined with the fact that the, the video had gone so viral, like literally. Within 24 hours that it came out, um, it was over half a million views on Twitter. It's like, um, like, you know, I think even to this date, it's like. Uh, Unisop's accounts, like most engaged tweet. So, you know, like, obviously things that like have this sort of element of virality. You know, also sell for a lot when it comes to like NFTs and, um, but I feel like the sort of like the charity aspect is sort of what. Put it in the stratosphere in terms of like um the impact um afterwards like after the sale.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  People were like, oh, like, why is this girl just donating all this to charity? And I don't um, a lot of people were like, oh, she's like probably doing it for attention or something. But like, yeah, like I was previously saying, like, this is just something that my family, you know, has been sort of like largely believed in and just like values that I was raised with. And yeah, and just in a time where I'm just going transitioning from like last summer, where I was totally jobless and like worried about affording rents to being grateful that I just had some kind of income by um creating these commissioned animations for DeFi. Um, like that was already so sufficient for me that this like crazy irrational influx

• 30:43Speaker 01

  of like NFT money just didn't even feel right for me to just be taking or milking at the time. Um, so it just made a lot more sense for me to share it with others. And um, yeah, I don't know, I feel like probably for that multitude of reasons is like, but I I definitely didn't think that it was gonna go for that much like so. Yeah, it went for around like three hundred ten ETH at the time. Um, which, yeah, and I remember that week too, like ETH dipped. So um, at at the time it sold, it was about like five hundred twenty five thousand. But like um, that was like literally during the low point of ETH. Cause like earlier, you know, like ETH was like way more and stuff.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  And then um, and I had actually wondered if I should like delay the NFT drop because it was like ETH is really low right now. Um, but then I like um, I spoke with uh Machi, big brother, I think before. I was just like, do you think I should still do it? And then he was like, don't try to time the market, like just stick to your original plan. And I'm really glad that he um convinced me to do that. So, yeah.

• 31:48David Hoffman?

  Yeah, you you might have actually gotten more ETH because it was valued at a lower US dollar number. Uh, and so that actually might have might have been accidentally the optimum time.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's entirely possible.

• 32:01David Hoffman?

  The critique of, oh, she's just doing this for attention, I think is interesting because if there's the type of person who would donate all of the revenue to charities, also the same type of person that doesn't necessarily need attention, like that kind of feels like it goes hand in hand. But also, like, if the out, if the output of that decision is a bunch of attention, there's something to say there about like how this NFT world can really just like be marketed to the mainstream, right? If the NFTs that get that donate to charity generate more attention than the NFTs that don't, this is exactly what Vitalik was talking about in one of his articles, I can't remember which one, but it's something along the lines of like, you can bestow legitimacy upon NFTs by committing a lot of

• 32:46David Hoffman?

  their, a lot of the sale money to charity. And he just said, I think something along the lines of like 10 to 20%, but you just did the whole full 100%, 100%. Do you have any like thoughts or reflections on that?

• 32:58Speaker 01

  I mean, I definitely feel like, just for all the reasons that I said previously, which is why I just donated, because then it's like also because I wasn't gonna be like trying to barter with Unisop like, oh, well, do you guys want to keep like 60%? You know what I mean? Like, it just, it just like didn't make sense. And it's like, I don't think Unisop needed the money, or did they care about that money? And for me personally, it was like, like I said, I was just going from like, literally being jobless to like, having just been grateful to have income to sustain myself to like, here's half a million dollars, that that sort of like transition was just too, it was almost like incomprehensible

• 33:40Speaker 01

  to me. And then so, even myself, I wasn't comfortable just like taking all of it, basically. I was just like, I don't, yeah, I don't feel like it makes sense. You know, there's, it was definitely, even now, since day, I feel like, it's just, it's just a personal value, really. And I have placed like zero judgment on anybody else who's like really milking the NFT movement, like, good for you, you know? I think it's just for me, that contrast was so stark that even now, I have like either Like imposter syndrome, or I'm just having trouble like adjusting. So it makes me feel better to share it with others. Um, cause at the end of the day, it is just really ridiculous. If you think about it, you know, like I bought some apes for like,

• 34:22Speaker 01

  you know, five apes for a combined like, what a thousand dollars worth of Eve back in April or something. And then now two, I only have two of them left, but they're both worth like a combined of like 250 grand. Like it's just, it's insane. And if you think about, you know, pre, pre 2020, 2021 Emily, where I'm just like sitting on the sideline thinking like, oh, I'd be grateful if I could get a $70,000 per year job right now. You know, it's just like, that difference is just so insane. Um, and so for me to be able to sort of like share that with, um, other people who didn't have that exposure like myself before, I think is something that adds value to my life.

• 35:05David Hoffman?

  In what ways, yeah, let's, I want to go into that, that last sentence. In what ways has the decision to donate the money to charity actually ended up paying you dividends? Like more job opportunities, more clout, more friends, like what, how has that decision paid off?

• 35:21Speaker 01

  I think it paid off in the sense that I can sleep better at night.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  And also, um, obviously, you know, the biggest moment was when I had worked with Endowment. Um, cause this is actually work where people are like, oh, you're, you know, I actually say that, but I actually, I'm really grateful that to this day, I don't think like I have very many hater, like haters. Like I don't think I've, I've seen more than like five of them or something. So that's honestly like really cool. Um, but yeah, just like, you know, to counter like the, oh, this is just for attention kind of thing. It's like, I've been sort of consistent with my like ethos, you know, I did the same with like the fortune drop. Um, and I just did like a drop on Solana and. Um, and you know, it's actually what people don't realize is it's not just like, oh, I wave a wand and then this charity thing happens and I get a bunch of clout.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  It's like, I actually have to dedicate a lot of time after to working with endowment and or like the volunteers. And like, you know, researching into what like charitable organization we should give this to and like having meetings and like discussing this and you know, it's like, that's all work. That's obviously like, not only you're not getting paid for, but it's like you're literally giving away money. Um, and also having to do that to make sure that it like goes into the right hands and that it's done properly and stuff. And so, you know, it's definitely like no walk in the park, but the whole um process of learning this is also extremely interesting. Like I don't know that people, many people do this very often and they should because like, I don't know, it's interesting.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  And then also just like, it makes it so much more clear, like the value of the blockchain of everything being transparent, applies so much more linearly and um straightforward um to charity because it's all there. Like you can literally see where the money is going. Um, and I feel like maybe something that has held people back from donating more money in the past or something is that, they're just like, well, I'm not sure where this money is going, you know, what if the organization just takes it and you know, and I feel like so, with with obviously like the blockchain, I think that sort of sheds some light there, um, which is really helpful.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  And then I guess like the last aspect of it, obviously, um, I guess maybe like social karma is that people trust you um and the way you say things. Actually, you know what I want to bring up? Another point is that, you know, I I I had at some point this summer, there was like this other NFT artist who was like, I don't think donating linearly to charity is like uh making any sort of like impact or whatever. Um, and I I just kind of liked to counter that. I was just thinking, well, you know, at the end of the day, it it is hard to tell if the amount of money I'm do I'm donating is actually making a difference because you know, there's so many problems in this world.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Sure, like one person can't solve a lot of things, but I think what is more powerful is that um one person or like a girl like me, um, making what people call Chad donations like that gives me a platform um for people to actually start paying attention to what I say. Um, and I feel like. If that alone gives me sort of like the stage to tell people and spread this idea of like value sharing and that Web 3 can be more than just like stacking wealth for yourself, but you can also have like the room and ethos of sharing with others. If just like donating this, given that that monetary value doesn't make that much

• 38:59Speaker 01

  actual difference in the real world, but if that many people more can sort of receive this message from me because I've donated, that and alone, it's worth it as well.

• 39:10David Hoffman?

  Yeah, what you're talking about is just signaling the chadness of the of the move itself, right? And so you're like a lot of humans out there, we learn by mimicking, like we learn by copying what other people do. And if there's a bunch of people out there who think that People Pleaser is really, really tight and they want to be just like People Pleaser, well, the thing that People Pleaser does is donates to charity. And so you're kind of like leading by example, right?

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Sure. And I have been actually, so many artists afterward have been inspired by this movement and were like, even if it's just like 5%, 10%, you know, they're like, oh, part of this is going to charity. I think that's, that's amazing and should be something that people feel better about doing and shouldn't be shamed into doing. But last but not least, I always, I can't emphasize this enough. I started doing this after I had determined that I was able to have a steady income from just doing commissioned animations. Like, it's not like I didn't have any money and I just started, like, obviously, it's, it's like the plain analogy where you put an oxygen mask on yourself first before you put it on other people. You have to feed yourself first. Like, don't go and be like,

• 40:20Speaker 01

  oh, I'm gonna start donating all my proceeds and then end up sort of like not fending for yourself.

• 40:27David Hoffman?

  Totally. Yeah. If you can put food on the table, gas in your tank and healthcare for your family, it's actually, you're actually going to be able to produce much more art overall, once you get to that point. And like, it's actually positive, like, rationally positive to be able to, if you want, if your idea is to maximize money to, money to charity, you got, you have to make sure you're comfy first so that you can actually work.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:50David Hoffman?

  Do you know, because this was not the last piece that you made where you donated money to charity, this was perhaps just the first. Do you know cumulatively, like, about how much money has collectively gone to charities throughout your career?

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Um.

• 41:03David Hoffman?

  Big ballpark number.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Big ballpark number, probably like closer to 2 million now.

• 41:11David Hoffman?

  Nice. Over how many different pieces?

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, let's see. So for the Uniswap one, actually, by the time hilariously, you know, even though it sold for 525,000, um, uh, when I actually donated it, um, because like I said, there was all this work that went into after like researching and stuff. So when we actually made the donation, um, is when we convert the ETH, um, was like, I think maybe two months later. And then so ETH had gone up. So it was like, I think almost $700,000 that ended up being donated, which is great. And then, um, for the Fortune one, I think it was also almost $700,000.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Um, and then, uh, there's like a few other pieces of mine, like the A16Z one that I did back in May, that sold for like, I think 120 something thousand. And then also for the, um, the, the Solana one that I did recently was, um, about 130,000. And so, yeah, I guess like if you add that up, it's like maybe almost like 2 million.

• 42:16David Hoffman?

  And every single one of these, 100% of the revenue all went to charity?

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Uh, no. So for the Fortune one, um, 50% of it went to charity. And then me and Fortune split the other 50%.

• 42:29David Hoffman?

  Okay.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  And then, um, for the Solana one, uh, over 50% went to charity. Um, and for the A16Z one, yeah, actually all of that went to charity.

• 42:40David Hoffman?

  Very cool. Very cool. Uh, how, how did the, I'm assuming it was the Uniswap piece that really was the most impactful. How did you, you had, I'm sure you had some vision of how you wanted your life to go. And then you made the Uniswap animation and then perhaps after that, your vision of where your life would go changed. Is it, if, if that's true, how did that change? How did it change?

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, before that, I just thought that, oh, maybe if I got famous selling enough teas, or if I got famous, then I can just sell enough teas for a living. Um, and just like drop, you know, let's say a piece of art every month and sell it for like one ETH. And then I'll be like, cool, that's like a salary, right? Um, and maybe I'll have a lot more other time to do, you know, other things or work on other projects. Uh, but definitely after the Uniswap drop happened, I think it, it, it was, uh, this year was obviously very transformative for me, but, um, it is an ongoing process. But I, I just very, very slowly realized that my role within the community and just in the space in general

• 43:44Speaker 01

  has changed because suddenly there was so much sort of like more attention and responsibility that I feel like was bestowed upon me that, um, that I, I, I had this realization that my role was no longer to just make my own NFTs and sell them for a living, but that I should probably use this platform and voice that I have, um, responsibly. And which ties back to what I was saying earlier about if I have a voice to just, um, inspire people to do better, um, and to share with others. Um, you know, this crypto bull run is so crazy. I'm sure everybody who has been participating this year feels that way. And it all, yeah, it almost just feels unfair for the people who missed out

• 44:27Speaker 01

  or don't have the opportunity to participate in something like this. Um, so if there's like the double purpose of educating them about it, um, bringing this to their attention and also like being able to literally help their life. Um, that's literally, I don't know, upside for everyone.

• 44:45David Hoffman?

  So how do you, what, what's that experience actually like? So when it comes time for, for people pleaser to work, it's, it's work time, but you're actually not making animations, you're not making art, you're doing what you were just describing, which is helping, you know, spread the message. What does that look like? What are you actually doing?

• 45:01Speaker 01

  It's funny because I don't see it that way. Um, I see it the other way. When I work, I'm actually creating or producing something. And then so even this year, right? Like I went through the Uniswap era where I just put my head down. And I'm just, you know, similar to building or whatever, I'm like creating. And then same with like the fortune thing. Or the one for the Ethereum documentary. And then sort of like after, so I see them as like sprints. So I'll be like sprinting and like creating these pieces. And then after I do that, it's almost like, it's almost like a, I go on like a little press tour after or something where it's just like rounds of like interviews, podcasts, or like speaking at conferences. Um, and that's where I'm doing things like spreading the message.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, like, it's like, I work and then my breaks are usually where I am doing, you know, sort of things like this and, um, and then I'll go into work mode again where I'm creating. So when I, when I think of myself as working, it's always when I'm in the process of creating. And then the breaks are sort of like the little press tour runs that I do.

• 46:07David Hoffman?

  Very cool. And then are, are you like hands on with other artists and getting them into this space? Are you talking to them individually or are you like talking to platforms about how to inspire people? What's that like?

• 46:19Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, honestly, at this point, I, I don't have the bandwidth that I used to, to sort of like talk to a bunch of artists individually. Um, of course, you know, there's always like friends who come to me and ask who are like curious about the space. And I'm always happy to like hop on a call, red pill them into crypto, like show them metamask, like the whole shebang. Um, but yeah, these days I feel like I'm spending most of my time, um, you know, sort of either like talking at conferences or on podcast interviews. Um, and yeah, occasionally I check my DMs.

• 46:57David Hoffman?

  That's, that's a great way to put it. Occasionally I also check my DMs, but very, very, very rarely. So as, as a result of the Uniswap animation, this thing called Pleaser Dow was formed. Uh, just like high level reflections on what the hell Pleaser Dow is and just like how, how that's impacted your life.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, definitely from the Unisop thing. I think, you know, like, the most touching moment was when I realized that there were this group of like DeFi Dejens who just came together and formed a DAO and then literally named themselves after me. I mean, that alone was, I think, just a stamp of verification that my work has obviously resonated and moved them in such a way that they would be motivated to do something like this. And, you know, for them to each chip in 10 ETH is like, I couldn't even imagine myself like selling a piece for 10 ETH, let alone so like 20 something people all being like, yeah, I'm willing to put in 10 ETH for this, you know? And then obviously it's like gone a lot crazier though. But back then it definitely felt a lot simpler and more pure in the sense that it was just

• 48:01Speaker 01

  there, they just wanted to support me and, and that's like super nice. And then while now Pleaser DAO has like grown into this like machine, which is a whole other monster of its own where they just literally, I don't know, they're just like buying everything that exists on this planet, basically.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Like in the future, our houses are gonna be like owned by Pleaser DAO.

• 48:26David Hoffman?

  The logical conclusion of all DAOs are to own everything. It's just a matter of how you actually get there or not. Did you, of any of the people that are now in Pleaser DAO, who of them did you know before Pleaser DAO? Like, did you know Leighton or Jameis at all before Pleaser DAO was formed?

• 48:40Speaker 01

  I, I had like, I think I had spoken to them briefly, like on the internet. So, um, Leighton, I remember, actually, this was like, probably like December of 2020, I think he reached out to me, um, and just asked if I'd be interested in doing like a little animation for Pull Together or something. And then, actually, at that point-

• 49:00David Hoffman?

  Everyone in the DeFi space has reached out to you and be like, hey, can you do an animation for us?

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, literally, that's what was happening. And I remember I had this little spreadsheet of like, okay, so after like boring DAO, I have to do a de-head run. And after the de-head run, I have a sushi slop one. And then, you know, it's like, and then so I remember, I think at that point when Leighton had reached out, my, my list was like so backed up that I was like, oh, it's possible, but you know, you're probably gonna have to like wait months or something. Um, and then that, that was pretty much like the only like exchange that we had. And I mean, I didn't know that he was so cool. Like, I, I usually like always feel so bad when I can't say yes to people immediately, but I'm like, oh, sorry. And then I always say, I'm like- Yeah, I always think they're gonna like hate me after or whatever, but I mean, obviously, people are like super cool like Leighton was just like the next time I had

• 49:47Speaker 01

  any interaction with him was just him wanting to support like my work despite me never having um the opportunity to do something for Pull Together. So yeah, and then Jameis, um hilariously, I actually, um, I think Jameis was also one of my like early followers from DeFi Summer. Um, I remember him because he would sometimes like comment on my stuff. Um, and then uh, he had messaged me one time, um, just to see if there was any sort of like collaboration that we could do in terms of like NFTs or art or whatever. It also didn't like really come to fruition or anything. So these are sort of like the light interactions, but it's always just like the people in Pleaser Dow at the time were either people

• 50:28Speaker 01

  that I had had already worked with or spoken to online, but I had never met any of them. Um, so yeah, that was super cool.

• 50:37David Hoffman?

  Yeah. Do you have like, what's your role in Pleaser Dow now? Uh, since you weren't actually part of the the crew that actually bought your own piece, that would be a little orboric. Like, how, what's your position in Pleaser Dow to this day?

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, so basically a few weeks after, I mean, I think right after I I remember Jameis kept messaging me. He's like, join Pleaser Dow. And then I was like, that's weird. I'm not gonna join the Dow that bought my own piece. And then like, so I just didn't. But then, um, like a few weeks after that happened, maybe, um, I think it was both like Andrew Kang and other people who were sort of explaining to me like their vision for Pleaser Dow and like, you know, where they think it'd go. And then I was like, oh, this makes sense. And it's actually really cool. And it's more than just like, I thought that, you know, Pleaser Dow would just end after like they bought my piece. I remember um, at the time, like, um, somebody came up to me was like, oh, like, I want to join Pleaser Dow. How do I join? And I'd just be like, why do you want to join? It's literally

• 51:35Speaker 01

  like the thing has ended. Like it's over. Little did I know, it is not over. And then so. So yeah, like, um, I felt like their vision was cool and I wanted to see where it went. So then they on boarded me as like an honorary member. And then, um, I was a lot more active, like in the beginning months, like, for example, when we were purchasing Snowden and everything, I was like, oh, um, you know, sort of like or ha- half orchestrating, like, you know, the, the things, um, like the purchases and like the bidding and stuff. And then, um, obviously like, I feel like recently I've gone way, way, way more busy. So, um, I just sort of likes, um, the Dow is almost like, you know, there's like full time hires now too. So, you know, I, I am, um, sort of like, almost like advising from time to time.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Um, I feel like now my role in the Dow is just kind of like, I'm like the spiritual godmother or something where every now and then I like float in. And I'm like, guys, remember like to have positive social impact and like, you know, just to like, make sure that we don't lose sort of like the ethos that we originally had, which was what made pleaser Dow so cool and that we don't just turn into something that's like using other people's money to buy things to gain attention, which is not the way of the Dow, or at least for me, you know, it's like, if you want to do that, then you can operate it on some other name. But as long as it's going to be pleaser Dow, I would hope that, you know, it's like things that have positive social impact, you know, maybe some charitable aspects,

• 53:02Speaker 01

  um, things that, because I, I do feel like, you know, you can make like a successful, like, um, also maybe like profitable Dow. That's also good for society, right? Like it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

• 53:14David Hoffman?

  I do think, uh, in this world that I'm about to make up, that the, in the world where the Uniswap animation didn't have the money going to, towards charity, pleaser Dow might not have formed. Um, I know, I know when, when I was talking to Leighton about this, he, he wanted to own the piece. That's why he sent out that tweet in the first place. But he also, I think, expressed like one of the motivations as to why he thinks this could work is like, oh, everyone can feel good about like contributing their money to the pot to buy this thing because of the charity element. Uh, and so may, maybe there's a world out there where pleaser Dow actually might not have had the, uh, the cohesiveness and the energy to form as a Dow without that charity element.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And I knew that it also, you know, for people like Leo Chang or Monchi Big Brother, it really resonated with them because I think they felt very, very strongly about the cause that I was donating to at the time, which was the Stop Asian Hate, because this year, it's funny because it feels like a lifetime ago, but it's actually just this year in March where all these terrible Asian hate crimes are happening. And obviously, being Asian myself, I felt like it was a responsible cause to contribute to. And it resonated with other Asians in the DAO, I guess.

• 54:35David Hoffman?

  How did you land the Fortune article? How did that happen?

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Uh, they reached out to me.

• 54:41David Hoffman?

  The article, the cover, they reached out to you?

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:43David Hoffman?

  Is that one of the times where you checked your DMs and then all of a sudden there's like a request for a Fortune cover in there?

• 54:49Speaker 01

  Well, so funny, funny enough, like even when Uniswap reached out to me at that point, I wasn't even really checking my DMs anymore. So it was always through like somebody that like, you know, it's like somebody that you know or whatever. So Uniswap, Teo reached out to Tarun, who then, obviously me and Tarun already knew each other, so we were connected on Telegram and stuff. So Tarun is like the famous Telegram that I always refer back to Tarun messages to me one morning. He goes, "Hey, someone from Uniswap wants to know if you want to work with them." Like, that's where it all started. And same with Fortune. So it was Alex Mazmed who reached out to me because we already connected. He was like, "Hey, somebody from Fortune wants to connect with you."

• 55:33Speaker 01

  And at the time was Robert Hackett, who just sort of like got my email. And he was just like, "Hey, I just wanted to know if there's any sort of like capacity that we can work together." And then that was kind of the exchange. And then nothing happened for like months. So I was like, "Okay, I don't like really know where that went, but cool." And then a few months later, their creative director, Peter Herbert, got the email from Robert Hackett. And then he just cold emailed me. And then, so I do check my emails, obviously, because, you know, less people have access to that and stuff. And then, so he just cold emailed me and was like, "Hey, Emily, like, we love your work. Your Uniswap thing was awesome and you seem very like, you know, sort of perfect for like the crypto community narrative. And then we're doing this new issue that's going to focus on crypto and DeFi.

• 56:15Speaker 01

  Do you want to do the cover?" And I was like, "Seriously?" And then so, yeah, that's literally how it started.

• 56:22David Hoffman?

  For those that haven't seen the Fortune cover, maybe we can get Luke, the video editor, just slap this on the screen while I'm talking about it. It's just a, it's a landscape, like, it kind of looks like a building, a skyscraper. There's a bunch of different rooms, but importantly, there's a bunch of crypto Twitter characters on there, all of these like avatars that crypto people have on, on crypto Twitter. Importantly, none of them are human pictures, right? They're actually just like digital representations. How did you go about the selection process of who got to be on the Fortune cover or not?

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Ha ha. This is where I wield all the power. No, I'm just kidding. It actually is, um, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, Fortune reached out to me. They wanted me to do the cover. They had zero direction for anything. They were just like, we just want to put your art on the cover. And then obviously knowing the piece was going to be about like crypto and DeFi, I wanted to make it sort of like fitting. And I just thought, look, they reached out to me and there's a lot of people who have like, or sort of like internet friends that I've made along the way, or people who have supported my work and shown me kindness and sort of to give back to them, I, I will put them on the cover. That's pretty much it. I mean, obviously

• 57:34Speaker 01

  a lot of them are also like influencers because that's where like Emily's like business brain kicks in. I'm like, well, I'll also, you know, the thing basically markets itself, you know, like, once it comes out, all these people are obviously going to be excited that they're on the cover. They're going to tweet about it. It's just like, and they're all, and they're all already influencers.

• 57:52David Hoffman?

  They're going to bid for it, all that stuff.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  They're going to bid for it. It's just like, the thing markets itself. Like, that was purely a business decision and, but in terms of who went on it, because I knew that there were some like crypto influencers who were like, why wasn't I on the cover and stuff, you know, who obviously also had a lot of followers and stuff. I'm like, well, first, I don't know, like, you've never spoken to me before, you know? So, like, so yeah, all the people on the cover. Are people who I would consider my friends have shown me kindness before, have talked to me before. And I'm like, look, if you're a friend of mine, I'll put you on the cover.

• 58:28David Hoffman?

  Nice, nice. Yeah. And a through line that I keep on thinking about in many, many different capacities is how this industry incentivizes kindness. And it goes back to the very basics of like, the chain is transparent, right? You, people can see what shenanigans you get up to. Like, if you hack a DeFi protocol, we can see that. Maybe we don't know who you are, but we know where the money goes. And because of that transparency, like, in order to grow a name for yourself, because people can check on everyone else in this space, like, you can really get to reward kindness and reward the properties and the qualities that you see in the people around you. Any thoughts on that?

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a positive some mindset, right? Or positive flywheel, whatever you want to call it, is just your effects affect other people. And, you know, if it's, and, you know, to sort of like, get a little bit more philosophical, and I think, like, just like, more like, wacky conversation is like, I imagine a future where like, AI is literally being trained by everything they see on the internet. So if everything that's happening on the internet is always like hateful comments, or, you know, like trolling, things like this, like negative things, we're probably when we reach something like the singularity, gonna be in a pretty dark place where AI has learned those ways. So if we're behaving, like showing kindness,

• 59:50Speaker 01

  behaving in like, more positive, like positive loops, then hopefully, you know, we're just like, building a better future for ourselves, really.

• 1:00:01David Hoffman?

  All right, guys, I hope you're enjoying the conversation with People Pleaser thus far. In the second half of the show, we get into a little bit more of People Pleaser's personal life, her relationships with her social groups of people that are in crypto versus out of crypto, how she balances that, those two very big dynamics, those two differences. We also talk about further the, the role and importance of charitable giving and spreading wealth and wealth distribution inside of a An industry where the number has gone up really, really quickly inside of a very small set of hands as it comes to the global population. So I hope you guys are enjoying, going to enjoy the second half of the show, just as you've enjoyed the first half of the show. But before we get there, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible.

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• 1:02:51David Hoffman?

  Before you got into crypto, I'm assuming you had non-crypto friends.

• 1:02:57David Hoffman?

  Have they become crypto people?

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  Um, some of them, actually. And then it's funny because it's not through me like, um, for, for a while after I started, I guess, like, getting more notoriety within the crypto community because thankfully I conveniently had this like all pseudonym people pleaser. And then so I was actually able to keep the identities pretty separate. And then so, you know, I never actually talked about my crypto career or what was happening in my life to my regular friends. Um, and so why, this is also sort of like a metric of how I feel like crypto was becoming more and more mainstream. Or was that was getting bigger was like, I would literally get messages from people in the past being like, hey, I like saw you on the news today.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Or like, hey, you know, like, and then, so I'd be like, okay, this sounds like crypto is like actually becoming mainstream if they're seeing things like this. Because obviously when I was doing it during DeFi summer, like nobody would have like known what the heck I was talking about. I'm sure you feel the same way probably about with your like non-crypto friends or his like crypto friends. It wasn't until, I think it was the first time that I went on Bloomberg and then they were like, oh, we have to, I was like, oh, I prefer to be called people pleaser. They were like, we have to say your first and last name once because, um, I don't know, something to do with journalism and they can't like do fake like reporting or something like, it's like a rule.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  And so they doxed me and then Fortune did the same thing. They also doxed me in like their article and also their like nifty 50 ranking and all these things. And then so I feel like now, um, the identities are like meshing together. And then, yeah, there's literally, it's kind of embarrassing. Like there'd be like people from my like non-crypto life in the past who like have come like, oh my God, I didn't know you were like doing this. And like, you're so like big in like NFTs now or whatever. And I feel like, ah, I didn't want you to know about this, like.

• 1:04:50David Hoffman?

  Why do you want to compartmentalize those two different worlds?

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think it's like, it's just, there's a few different reasons. Well, first is like, I feel more, it's just like having an alternate identity, right? Like, I don't have to worry about people judging me when I say things on Twitter if, like, they don't really know the real me or whatever. And also, and it is becoming more and more of a thing where I get more and more messages now from people in the past, who are just like, asking for things, you know, like, they're like, oh, can you help me with this? Or, you know what I mean? Or like, oh, can you give me an NFT? Or, you know, like, things that are obviously either like financially motivated or something that, you know, it's like,

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  dude, you haven't talked to me in like years, and then suddenly you want to be my friend again. So that's kind of like why I wanted to keep it separate, but obviously I knew that it wasn't like, probably it wasn't possible forever. It was nice while it lasted.

• 1:05:51David Hoffman?

  One thing I talked about on the second ever Layer Zero was with Eric Connor, and we talked about this thing called, what we call Ethereum brain, where you wake up, you check your crypto Twitter DMs, you check your Discords, like, read the Ethereum-based article, and it's really just like, too much Ethereum just in your, in your brain, like toxic levels of Ethereum. Do you experience that as an NFT person? Because I, I mean, I personally definitely experienced that, but I'm much more focused on Ethereum itself, where I think you are much more focused on NFT and Ts and art. Do you experience this sort of just like toxic levels of crypto in your brain at times?

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  Definitely. Sometimes I just wonder, you know, there's the whole echo chamber analogy, right? Which is like, am I in an echo chamber? And so that's also why I like to keep it separate too, because when I, I just, as much as I love crypto, I don't want to be like spending 24 hours of my day thinking about and talking about it. And then I think something that almost all crypto people are guilty of, but also because it's so interesting and fascinating as a topic, is that when they get together, that's literally just all they talk about. And I think it's kind of alienating and excluding from people who are obviously like not part of that conversation. And so it's almost like I can take a breather from my life when I hang out with my non-crypto friends and we could talk about things that are not like just crypto.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Because yeah, it's just like refreshing to know that there's other things happening in this world that is not crypto.

• 1:07:19David Hoffman?

  But as you're going more and more into the crypto world, are you still able to relate to your non-crypto friends as well as you once were?

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  I definitely, this is a confession, that I definitely feel like I have to make more of an effort to stay focused and be sort of like interested and engaged in the things that my non-crypto friends are talking about after being red-pilled. And, you know, before I spoke to this really good friend who's also in crypto, who was saying like, he was like, oh, well, you know, it's just, it's nothing against my non-crypto friends, but I just think successful people are more interesting. And I feel like that's probably not the right way to put it. And I think the right way to put it is just that-

• 1:08:00David Hoffman?

  That's kind of a rough delivery.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think the right way to put it is more that our interests are now so sort of like embedded in this community and everything. And so that, who we find interesting, you know, it's literally the word interest, right? That's where our interests lie. And that's why we find them interesting. It's not because like, they're more successful or whatever than like our regular friends. It's just, our interests are more aligned with these people in terms of like, you know, so many senses, like a career sense, like passion sense, value sense. Yeah.

• 1:08:33David Hoffman?

  How's your, how's your social life changed, getting and becoming a crypto person?

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, I feel like I hang out with a lot more crypto people now. Um, just because, you know, like, you know, even like meeting people like you, it's just been so lovely and just to hang out. And you guys are actually just like all really cool people. You know what I mean? It's not like we're all like, you know, like people who don't talk or anything. Like, we get along really well. We have a lot to talk about. So it's definitely changed in that, in that way. It also changed, and I'm sure you noticed this as well, like going to crypto events is like, a lot more people try to talk to you. I'm like, not really sure if that's a good thing, actually. Because sometimes it just feels like you can't really like be yourself. You're sort of like

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  constantly under a magnifying glass. But the nice thing is that only happens during conferences, or like crypto events. And then so, but otherwise, like hanging out with my non-crypto friends hasn't really changed that much, other than I do feel like I have less time to do that now.

• 1:09:37David Hoffman?

  Right. How has, has crypto made your imposter syndrome better or worse?

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't think it's gotten better, but I don't think it's gotten worse either. I think it's about the same.

• 1:09:49David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:52David Hoffman?

  How, how, how do you have to like manage that? Like, just like, oh, wait, no, this is my imposter syndrome coming out. I don't need to pay attention to this. Is this something that you like, you try and like actively manage?

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I actually didn't even realize I had imposter syndrome until I talked to either like some people in my life. I remember the first time that I met Linda Sheer in real life, because I've been such a big fan of hers. Like, you know, she was just such an inspiration, like female leader in the space. And so when I met up with her, you know, we were just having a chat. And then I was just saying like, oh, you know, I hope to like be like you one day. And so she's like, what are you talking about? Look at your timeline and like, I don't know. She's just like saying, at least she's like, you definitely have imposter syndrome. And I feel like that was the first time that was like really, really brought to my attention. Because I didn't, didn't think about it that way before.

• 1:10:44David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 1:10:46David Hoffman?

  There are some artists, and this isn't just true for artists, but I was recently watching this like climbing documentary of this guy that would go out and climb all these different routes. And people that were paying attention to him as he would go across the world and climb this one route and like transcend this mountain, you know, like claim victory. And then he would go across a different world and do the same thing. And people would say like, oh, it feels like he's building up to something. It feels like he's like working on just like some grand thing. Are you, as an artist, working up to something? Like, do you have some long-term grand, like magnum opus, like in, on the horizon?

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  Um, I think it's to become Picasso. I'm totally joking.

• 1:11:28David Hoffman?

  The Picasso of NFTs?

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  That was a terrible joke. I don't even know if we can call it by as a joke. It's funny, I actually feel like there's a few quotes that I can pull. One is from The Dark Knight, where the joker says, oh, it's like a dog chasing an ambulance. But when you actually, you're like constantly chasing it, but when the dog actually catches up the ambulance, you don't know what to do with it. Sometimes I feel it's kind of like that where. I'm always working towards something, but it's hard to define what I'm actually working towards because I feel like every day since I've been in crypto, or every day means maybe a stretch, but every week, definitely, my life goes in a different direction. So when you're headed in a life like that's like literally doing this all the time, it's

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  hard to see what's gonna happen in like two or three years. But so the most I can do is make the most of what's happening in the present. And when I'm given a task that I feel like is important, has a platform, for example, like the Fortune cover, the Uniswap video, all I know is to just put in my best work, do what I do best, which is to insert my creative vision to it, make it look cool, and have meaning and educational purposes to it. And at the same time, inspiring people to be more charitable is like a nice plus.

• 1:12:53David Hoffman?

  If we were to fast forward like three, five years into the future, what would you want people to look back on the legacy of People Pleaser to be? How do you want that to be defined?

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  It's really funny because I always feel like if I ever had a Wikipedia page, I would always imagine, I don't know, it's like when you read like Bill Gates's Wikipedia page or something, there's always like a giant chunk that's just like philanthropy, and then it just talks about like, and I feel like that would be the part that I'd be most excited to like read about. It's just like, how has like People Pleaser contributed? Or like, yeah, and it doesn't even have to be donating money, but just in terms of like spreading awareness to things, the message that I create, you know, like, yeah, it'd be cool to be like a crypto Greta Thunberg or something. I don't know. If you've ever like heard anything that she says, by the way, it's so powerful that, obviously, I'm

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  not, and nowhere near as like eloquent, or the messages that I feel like are not as important. But yeah, I just to sort of like feel that power and just be so inspired by listening to people. I can totally see the value of why, you know, that kind of platform exists.

• 1:14:09David Hoffman?

  What about the world of crypto bugs you the most? What do you really not like about crypto?

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  What do I really not like about crypto? Hmm. I think it's a combination of like the sort of like, sometimes I feel like there's like this element of like gatekeeping almost. Um, I don't really like that. I noticed that a lot, especially with maybe less so crypto, but NFTs in the beginning. Um, it's like, oh, only like the best artists can get on these platforms and you know, sort of like this separation of like good artists and bad artists or like good artists and regular artists, which really what people mean is just like an artist that is able to sell their work for a lot. And you know, and I feel like art is so subjective that including people like myself, it's just a combination of being in the right place at the right

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  time. It's not because I'm more talented than other people. And um, yeah, I wish people would drink less of their own Kool-Aid and see that a lot of it is just luck really. So the amount that your art sells for doesn't really reflect who you are or how great you are as a person.

• 1:15:16David Hoffman?

  When it's a time for you to log off of your computer, close your laptop lid and go do something in the real world, what do you like to do?

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, I like playing on my Nintendo Switch. That's like what I do when I log. So I guess it's not really, um, obviously, um, I enjoy going.

• 1:15:36David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  You think that counts?

• 1:15:37David Hoffman?

  Oh, a hundred percent. What kind of games do you like to play?

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  I love playing Smash Brothers or um, obviously I went through like, and also recently went back to it since the pandemic, um, Animal Crossing. I feel like now it's just like, it's almost just like taking a little break from my brain, right? Like you don't really have to think and Animal Crossing has all these like relaxing tunes in the background. Um, yeah, so definitely, I think during the pandemic, what really saved my life um, from going insane was Smash Brothers, Animal Crossing. I played Breath of the Wild. Um, I also played Pokemon Sword and Shield. Um, yeah, those are like the ones I played, I think.

• 1:16:14David Hoffman?

  Uh, single player or multiplayer?

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  Uh, both.

• 1:16:17David Hoffman?

  Yeah?

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:18David Hoffman?

  With multiplayer, is it with like your other friends or just people on the internet?

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  Uh, usually my friends. Yeah, it was like, it was like the only way for me to like be social during the pandemic, would be like to visit my friends' islands on like Animal Crossing or like play Smash together or something.

• 1:16:33David Hoffman?

  When it, when it comes to you and your friends playing Smash together, are you competitive or are you just like playing?

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  Um, I, I'm, I'm not that competitive. So I much more enjoy playing, you know, like the mode where you're both on the same team and then you're just fighting like another team or something. Cause I don't like to go against my friends, like.

• 1:16:51David Hoffman?

  Probably.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  Probably do all those every time.

• 1:16:55David Hoffman?

  Yeah. Also, perhaps something to do with people pleaser, you don't want to make your friends upset.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  I'm not good enough to the point where I can make my friends upset.

• 1:17:07David Hoffman?

  Okay. What about, uh, now that COVID is over, what about, uh, non-screen related activities?

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I love, um, going to parks like in the summer, um, and just hanging out in a park. I know that sounds really weird, but it's like totally a thing. Um, or just, I guess I go into bars and stuff because you normally am based in New York. And so what is there to do in New York City other than drink?

• 1:17:31David Hoffman?

  Right. How'd you end up in New York? Have you been there for a while?

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, um, I've been there for three years. Um, and I originally moved there. I was working in London. Um, and then I, I was living and working in London. This was like 2018 and then I had gone because of work, like I got this new, uh, work or job thing. Um, and also because like, like they were giving me a better offer. And then my sister, um, lives in New York. She's been in New York for like 10 years. And my parents were like, you should just take the job in New York because you should be closer to your sister. And also when we visit you guys, we only have to make one trip. I'm like, okay. Um, yeah. Which was like really sad to me at the time. I always say I had like one heartbreak in my life, which is when I had to leave London because I love London. I think it's like one of my favorite cities in the world. So when I first moved to New York, I was like, I hate this.

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  Like, I want to go back to London. I don't want to be here, but now I've learned to love the city.

• 1:18:25David Hoffman?

  New York is like a crypto, it's like the hub of the crypto world, right? When it's time for conference time, it's basically like, it's in New York, right?

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  But that didn't happen until this year, or at least like I wasn't participating in crypto conferences, obviously before the pandemic, but like that was just like pure coincidence. Like I was like, I don't understand why New York suddenly became like the world's like crypto hub. It's like so random. Was this, was it like this before?

• 1:18:49David Hoffman?

  The crypto conferences pre-COVID are not like the crypto conferences of today. They, you were, you did not miss much, going in like 2018, 2019 conferences. That really, the, the culture of the crypto culture, crypto culture was not instantiated at all as it was, as it is today, like 2017, 2018 crypto culture, like is, it was like the moon boy Lambo ICO culture craze that just like is not something that anyone really enjoyed. And so like what crypto is as a community and who we are as a group of people has really been defined, you know, start, starting at the end of COVID, right? That's really like crypto assets started really going up.

• 1:19:31David Hoffman?

  The community started really defining itself. And also, we also did meet, meeting each other in real life, you know, at the start of 2021 ish. And so like you, you are, especially the stuff, all the stuff, the meetups that are happening in New York, like you are watching like the birthplace of crypto culture.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  Wow. Okay. Yeah, I didn't know this. I was just like a humble hodler prior to the pandemic, just like holding some ICO shit coins. And then, yeah.

• 1:20:01David Hoffman?

  What's it been like to be in New York during the rise of all of these like crypto meetups, crypto conferences, and just, you know, social gatherings?

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  I mean, it's both awesome and exhausting. That's, I mean, I don't know. I've always been somebody who's like constantly lived in high stimulating cities for all of my life, actually. So, you know, I've lived in like Taipei, LA, and so. You know, it's not something that I'm not used to, but definitely it never, it had never been at this capacity where like, especially during like a week, like main net or something. It's like, there's a party every single night. Um, and I was like, I didn't even do this in college. And so, you know, like, it was definitely really, it was really tired. I don't know how some people do it. They really just stay up till like

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  4am or something, even during Bitcoin Miami. I think my average bedtime was like probably around midnight to 2am the latest, like I'm, I'm, I'm just like an old person at heart. Like literally after the Pleaser Dow party at main net, everybody was like, okay, we're gonna go to the after party at this club or whatever. I was like, I'm going home. Bye. Like I literally just went home.

• 1:21:05David Hoffman?

  I'm definitely, we need to figure out the club of people that wants to be in bed by 2am and like get all those people into the same hotel. So we could all like, you know, make this group decisions. Like, all right, the, the, the 2am bedtime club people, like we're, we're leaving. It's time. And you know, and ask to feel, feel bad about leaving the group.

• 1:21:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:21:27David Hoffman?

  What, what have your, what's the biggest lessons that you've learned? Uh, the mistakes that you've made, the biggest mistakes that you've made that you definitely know not to repeat anymore? Being an NFT artist or just existing in the world of crypto.

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  Um, saying yes to things that you don't actually feel like doing.

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  That's just, that's still a muscle that I'm practicing today. Or, yeah, or my, my biggest regret is not saying no more often. Just because, you know, at the same time, you're creating false expectations for other people and you're also not living true to your own values of what you actually want to do. All for what? Like the fear of offending one person or something? And, you know, as it shows, like people are not that harsh or like easily offended as I was so terribly afraid of. And so, yeah, my biggest regret is definitely just not saying no enough.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  Because it's definitely something that eats away at me. Like, I feel like every time I try to please other people, I'm giving away a tiny piece of myself and it's not an infinite amount that I can give away. Right? So.

• 1:22:39David Hoffman?

  Do you think that the the belief of people would have been upset if you said no came from a pre crypto world, or maybe that was just a preconceived notion that you had in your head that should never have been there in the first place?

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  I think it just should have never been there in the first place. Um, it probably definitely stems from some self-esteem issues, um, like confidence issues where, oh, I want people to like me because if I don't please them, maybe they won't like me.

• 1:23:06David Hoffman?

  Well, I think hopefully, if the the narrative that I keep on spinning about crypto culture is actually true and not just a fabrication, that we are in a a community of people where it's easier to find people that value you for you, the individual and and your contributions to the community at large.

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, hopefully. I mean, I think so. It certainly seems to be heading that way.

• 1:23:29David Hoffman?

  What are you excited for with the future of crypto? What about the what about the world of crypto makes you optimistic for the future?

• 1:23:37Speaker 01

  I think just things like, um, positive some games and obviously, you know, the overly told narrative of removing the middle man, um, something like the industry that I was in before crypto, like VFX is it suffers hugely from this, right? Um, the movie industry is systemically so messed up in so many ways. Um, visual effects workers work so hard and are notoriously underpaid all the time. Um, when Life of Pi won the Oscar for Best Visual Effects, ironically, that studio literally shut down to being bankrupt and couldn't pay their workers.

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  Um, and so there's just so many things that are wrong and that crypto has made like so revolutionary, not just in terms of NFTs, but just, um, to be able to like have passive income for yourself. That's not just 17 cents coming into my bank account every month from interest. Like, how ridiculous is that? Um, and, you know, sort of just

• 1:24:40David Hoffman?

  This is a true story, right?

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  This is a true story. I posted this on Twitter. I was like, look, I got 17 cents in interest. Like, this is, I don't I don't know, it's just insane. Um, and so, yeah, like, things like that, um, transparency of the blockchain make me bullish. Um, you know, like I said about how, why I think it's important for charity as well. Um, but I do feel like, you know, sort of with crypto picking up steam like this, um, it is creating sort of also a wealth inequality, um, and speeding that up at a crazy rate, which is why I always go back to preaching. We should share with others whenever we can, um, because if things keep going the way they are,

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  it's possible that there's like, probably going to be like a civil war that's like brewing and it's not going to be pretty, I think. Um, so things that we should be mindful of is sharing with others and not being like, ha ha, we're so much like light years ahead of you and then.

• 1:25:42David Hoffman?

  You're concerned that just the wealth disparity between crypto people and not crypto people just becomes so large that the society just like flips the table and just like, and that can't happen, yeah?

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I totally see that happening.

• 1:25:55David Hoffman?

  One of the, one of the narratives that I tried and really like beat the drum on is like, our crypto assets are actually going to go up in price the more we spread them around. Uh, and so like if we, if you own like a hundred ether, uh, and then you give away half of it to, you know, strategically to, at the right times and the right moments to like a bunch of people. Well, the value of the individual unit of ether might actually double as a result of that distribution. So you can actually keep the same amount of like real wealth while also spreading at the same amount around to more and more people.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, I definitely believe in that. So I think the fundamental values and the technology of crypto are revolutionary and, you know, in the right direction, but it is up to us, the users, to also use it in a way that is. Creating a brighter future for us and not the dark sort of like bleak one that, you know, could also happen as a result.

• 1:26:51David Hoffman?

  Right. We need to make sure that the doors to the Citadel are open rather than rather than closed.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Correct.

• 1:26:58David Hoffman?

  Well, People Pleaser, thank you so much for coming on Layer Zero and telling me your story.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  Thanks for hearing me out.

• 1:27:05David Hoffman?

  If people want to see your work or follow you on Twitter, where should they go?

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  They should go to People Pleaser one, not People Pleaser. It's People Pleaser one on Twitter. And you can see it on my Zoom screen here, too. That's the way it's spelt. On Instagram, it's just People Pleaser.

• 1:27:21David Hoffman?

  Awesome. We'll have all those links in the show notes. Thank you for coming on.

• 1:27:24David Hoffman?

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• 1:28:06David Hoffman?

  and weekly rollups where we summarize the week in crypto and other fantastic content. Thanks, everyone, for watching and being on the journey as we build out the Bankless nation.