35: Maneuver Warfare, Being a Rebel, Disarming w/ Words, Sliding into Old Habits

0:00:00 - Opening 1:13:23 - Cool Interwebs Stuff and Onnit Stuff 1:15:19 - Random Working out talk 1:26:05 - Thoughts on UFC McGreggor VS Diaz and Jiu Jitsu 1:33:40 - Jocko being a Rebel VS Rule-followers 1:43:40 - Dealing with a Leader who Preaches, but does not Practice ownership. 1:47:24 - The Art of Disarming People with Words. 1:53:48 - People who Lead from an emotional/unbalanced place. How to improve. 2:01:10 - "You get more bees with honey." 2:05:23 - Sliding into old bad habits. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number thirty-five with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:14Jocko Willink?

  Weeper was ahead when he and Born reached the gap in the wire. Star shell after star shell was going up now, and the whole line had woken up. Machine guns were talking, but there was one that would not talk. The rattle of musketry continued, but the mist was kindly to them. It had thickened again.

• 0:39Jocko Willink?

  As they got beyond the trampling, clutching wire, Born saw Weeper a couple of paces ahead of him, and what he thought was the last of their party disappearing into the mist about twenty yards away. He was glad to be clear of the wire. Another star shell went up, and they both froze in stillness under its glare. Then they moved again, hurrying for all they were worth. Born felt a sense of triumph and escape thrill in him. Anyway, the Hun couldn't see him now.

• 1:13Jocko Willink?

  Something kicked him in the upper part of the chest, rending its way through him, and his agonized cry was scarcely audible in the rush of blood from his mouth as he collapsed and fell. Weeper turned his head over his shoulder, listened, stopped, and went back. He found Born trying to lift himself, and Born spoke, gasping, suffocating. "Go on, I'm scuppered." "I'll not leave thee," said Weeper. Said Weeper. He stood and lifted the other in his huge, ungangly arms, carrying him as tenderly as though he were a child.

• 1:54Jocko Willink?

  Born struggled wearily to speak, and the blood filling his mouth prevented him.

• 2:02Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes, his head fell on Weeper's shoulder. At last, barely articulate, a few words came. "I'm finished. Leave me in peace, for God's sake. You can't." "I'll not leave thee," said Weeper in infuriate rage.

• 2:22Jocko Willink?

  He felt Born stretch himself in a convulsive shudder and relax, becoming suddenly heavier in his arms. He struggled on, stumbling over the shell-plowed ground through that fantastic mist which moved like an army of wraiths hurrying away from him. Then he stopped, and taking the body by the waist with his left arm, flung it over his shoulder, steadying it with his right. He could see their wire now, and presently he was challenged and replied. He found the way through the wire and staggered into the trench with his burden.

• 3:05Jocko Willink?

  Then he turned down the short stretch to Monk Trunch, and came on the rest of the party outside A Company's dugout. "I've brought 'em back," he cried desperately, and collapsed with the body on the duckboards. And that is from a book called "The Middle Parts of Fortune", which is written by a guy named Frederick Manning, who served with the King's Shropshire

• 3:48Jocko Willink?

  Light Infantry in World War I. He served with the 7th Battalion at the Battle of the Somme. And after the war, he became a writer. And the book, which is actually a novel but based on his experiences, was published as being written by Private 19022. That's how it got originally published. And then, after his death, he finally received credit for writing it.

• 4:19Jocko Willink?

  And it's a, it's, it's a very powerful book. And I wanted to start with that excerpt from World War I because it is the most shining in my mind and most horrific example of attrition warfare. Almost 20 million killed, usually over a few hundred yards of trench. And I can't, I can't stand that. Attrition warfare is a strategy in which one side tries to grind down and wear down the other side. And they break when they no longer have the men. The soldiers.

• 5:03Jocko Willink?

  The people, the humans, or the supplies to keep it going. And it's brutal. And it also gives no real advantage to intellect, to thought, and to tactical prowess on the battlefield. And I don't like it. Now, the opposite of attrition warfare is maneuver warfare. And that's what we're gonna dive into tonight. The book is The Maneuver Warfare Handbook.

• 5:42Jocko Willink?

  But as we talk about it, think about it not just being about war and about combat, but about how attrition warfare and maneuver warfare can be easily seen in the way that we lead, and also in the way we interact with other people, with other humans, which is what leading is. And so, here we go. Into this book right here, Maneuver Warfare Handbook. It's written by William S. Lind, and we'll get into him in a minute.

• 6:22Jocko Willink?

  Here we go with the book. "I served over thirty-one years active duty with the Marine Corps, saw combat in both Korea and Vietnam, and attended service schools from the basic school to the National War College. Yet only toward the end of my military career did I realize how little I really understood the art of war. Even as a PFC in Korea, after being medevaced along with most of my platoon after a fruitless frontal assault against superior North Korean forces, it seemed to me there had to be a better way to wage war. Seventeen years later, commanding a battalion at Kaesong, I was resolved that none of my Marines would die for lack of superior combat power.

• 7:06Jocko Willink?

  But we were still relying on the concentration of superior firepower to win. Essentially, still practicing Grant's attrition warfare. And we were still doing frontal assaults." That opening right there is Colonel John C. Stutt, Marine Corps, obviously, and he just kind of explained his career path, serving in both Korea and Vietnam. And he goes on, "The author of this book," so he's doing the foreword to this book, Maneuver Warfare, "the author of this book has never served a day of active military duty. And he has never been shot at, although there are no doubt some senior officers would like

• 7:51Jocko Willink?

  to remedy that latter deficiency." So, he's a little bit unpopular, the guy that wrote this book, with some people. "Yet he demonstrates an amazing understanding of the art of war as have only a small handful of military thinkers I have come across in my career." So he's talking about this guy, William S. Lind.

• 8:17Jocko Willink?

  And here he goes into some details on William S. Lind and how he came into contact with him. Back to the book. "When I first heard Bill Lind speak, I must confess, I resented a mere civilian expressing criticism of the way our beloved Corps did things. After all, he was not one of us. He had not shed blood with us in battle, he was not a brother. And I had strong suspicions that he would have difficulty passing the PFT, meaning the physical test, the physical... So this guy, Lind, not exactly a high-level athlete.

• 8:57Jocko Willink?

  But what he said made sense. For the first time, I was personally hearing someone advocate an approach to war that was based on intellectual innovation rather than sheer material superiority. Mission-type orders, surfaces and gaps, schwert punkt, instead of the rigid formulas and checklist that we normally associate with our training and doctrine. It was a stimulating experience. Through Lind's articulation, years of my own reading of military history began to make a lot more sense.

• 9:30Jocko Willink?

  But why all this from a civilian instead of a professional soldier? In fact, the entire movement for military reform is driven largely by civilian intellectuals, not military officers. One notable exception being retired Air Force Colonel John Boyd. When you think about it, this is not surprising. We have never institutionalized a system that encourages innovative ideas or criticism from subordinates. So there you go. It's the military. What do you say to your superior officer? "I don't think that's a good plan?" No, what they're told to do is support the plan.

• 10:07Jocko Willink?

  "Proposing significant change is frequently viewed as criticism of superiors, since they are responsible for the way things are. And borders on disloyalty, if not insubordination." So it is not surprising that the movement for reform comes from outside the military establishment.

• 10:27Jocko Willink?

  And he goes on to say, BH Liddell Hart, which BH Liddell Hart was a guy that fought in World War I, a Brit that fought in World War I, battled a Somme, he got hit three times, eventually was gassed, sent out of the line, and almost his entire battalion was wiped out. And this guy eventually wrote a book called Strategy: An Indirect Approach. And interesting, I pulled up one quote from him. "Often, the longest way around is the shortest way there." This is the indirect approach.

• 11:10Jocko Willink?

  So anyways, back to the book here on what BH Liddell Hart said. Hart once remarked that "The only thing harder than getting a new idea into the military mind is to get an old one out." In 1925, when he was expounding such heterical theories as the indirect approach, the American General Service Schools' review of current military literature dismissed one of Liddell Hart's major works as "negative value to the instructors at these schools." "I expect Marine Corps schools to receive this publication with similar enthusiasm,

• 11:49Jocko Willink?

  but I cannot believe a professional military officer would not benefit by reading it." So, that's, if you, to catch the setup of this book, he's saying, "Look, this is different than what we've been taught." This is different, and by the way, this book, I'm checking the dates right now, this came out in 1985. So, there has been progress in this direction since then, but at the time that this came out, it was just, it was viewed as almost insubordination to think this way. So, let's jump into it right here.

• 12:32Jocko Willink?

  With the theory of maneuver warfare. So now we're getting to Lind himself writing. Maneuver warfare is not new. It probably dates from the first time a caveman surprised an enemy from behind instead of meeting him club to club.

• 12:50Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes the word maneuver is used as a synonym for movement. Such as in references to fire and maneuver in small unit tactics. So that's, you know, we have in the book Extreme Ownership, cover and move. And that's what we're talking about. We're talking about move. He's saying fire and maneuver is the same use of the word maneuver to mean move.

• 13:14Jocko Willink?

  Maneuver is organized movement of troops during combat operations to a new access and region for the purpose of taking an advantageous position relative to the enemy in order to deliver a decisive strike. So that's sort of the classical definition. But when used in the phrase maneuver warfare, maneuver means much more. Only recently has someone suggested a convincing answer of what maneuver means. That man is a retired Air Force Colonel and fighter pilot named John Boyd. Colonel Boyd's development of the theory of maneuver warfare began not with ground

• 13:53Jocko Willink?

  battles, but with a study of some mock air-to-air combat exercises conducted at NLS Air Force Base in 1974 that led him back to the study of air-to-air combat during the Korean War. American aviators were very successful in that conflict. They achieved a 10 to 1 kill ratio over their North Korean and Chinese opponents. Colonel Boyd began his study with the question, how and why did we do so well?

• 14:23Jocko Willink?

  He noted in several tradition, he noted that in several traditional measures of aircraft performance, the principal communist fighter, the MiG-15 was superior to the American F-86. So you might think, oh, Americans always have the best technology, not true. So, and, and Boyd will end up doing Boyd, we're gonna hear quite a bit about him right now, but this guy was sort of a strategic genius in the air force and a bunch of people on Twitter hit me and social media have always been saying, you gotta do Boyd, you gotta do Boyd, and I know I gotta do Boyd at some point, and this is sort of a good introduction to Boyd. So, here's the, here's the difference between the MiG-15 and the American F-86.

• 15:04Jocko Willink?

  The MiG-15, it could climb and accelerate faster and it had better sustained turn rate. But in two less obvious measures of aircraft performance, the F-86 was much superior to the MiG. First, the pilot could see out much better. The F-86's bubble canopy gave its pilot very good outward vision, while the MiG's fared canopy made it difficult to see out. Second, the F-86 had a high-powered and highly effective hydraulic controls and the MiG did not. This meant that while the MiG could do many individual actions, including turn, climb,

• 15:45Jocko Willink?

  and accelerate, better than the F-86, the F-86 could transition from one action to another much more quickly than the MiG. It was better in the transition. So for all you jujitsu players, when you start that scramble, you start that scramble, the F-86 is a better scrambler. Using these two superiorities, the American pilots developed a tactical approach that forced the MiG into a series of actions. Each, each time the action changed, the F-86 gained a time advantage, because the F-86 pilot could see more quickly how the situation had changed, and he could also make his aircraft shift more quickly to a new action.

• 16:29Jocko Willink?

  So he can see what's happening faster, then once he sees it, which he saw faster, now he can make his adjustment faster. With each change, the MiG's actions became more inappropriate. Until they were so inappropriate, that the MiG gave the F-86 a good firing opportunity. Often, it appeared the MiG pilot realized what was happening to him and panicked, which made the American pilot's job all the easier.

• 16:56Jocko Willink?

  Later, Colonel Boyd began studying ground combat to see if there were any situations similar to that he had found in the air war over Korea. He found that in battles, campaigns, and wars, like Vicksburg and France, a similar thing seemed to have happened. One side had presented the other with a sudden, unexpected change, or a series of such changes to which it could not adjust in a timely manner. As a result, it was defeated. And it was generally defeated at small cost to the victor. Often, the losing side had been physically stronger than the winner. Just like the MiG-15 was physically faster. It didn't matter.

• 17:41Jocko Willink?

  And, often, the same sort of panic and paralysis the North Korean and Chinese pilots had shown seemed to occur. Colonel Boyd asked himself, "What did all these cases have in common?" His answer was what is now called the Boyd Theory, which is the theory of maneuver warfare. The briefing Colonel Boyd gives to explain his theory, patterns of conflict, takes over five hours. So Colonel Boyd does give this brief, and it takes over five hours. Or he did when he was alive. But at the cost of missing some of the subtleties and supporting historical evidence in the briefing, it can be summarized as follows. So here's a kind of a synopsis of the Boyd Theory

• 18:24Jocko Willink?

  that Lynd is gonna put together for us right now.

• 18:29Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Conflict can be seen as time-competitive observation, orientation, decision, action cycles. Each party to a conflict begins by observing. He observes himself, his physical surroundings, and his enemy. On the basis of his observation, he orients. That is to say, he makes a mental image or snapshot of his situation. On the basis of this orientation, he makes a decision. He puts the decision into effect, i.e. he acts. Then, because he assumes his action has changed the situation, he observes again and starts the process anew.

• 19:10Jocko Willink?

  His actions follow a cycle, sometimes called the Boyd Cycle or OODA Loop. And OODA is O-O-D-A, and that's observe, orient, decide, and act.

• 19:22Jocko Willink?

  If one side in a conflict can consistently go through the Boyd Cycle faster than the other, it gains a tremendous advantage. By the time the slower side acts, the faster side is doing something different from what he observed, and his action is inappropriate. With each cycle, the slower party's action is inappropriate by a larger time margin. Even though he desperately strives to do something that will work, each action is less useful than its predecessor. He falls further and further behind. Ultimately, he ceases to be effective. And we clearly, I mean, this is obvious in combat, it's also obvious in jiu-jitsu. I mean, very clear, when you're training, when you're rolling with somebody,

• 20:07Jocko Willink?

  if they're not making adjustments fast enough, you just, it's two or three, two or three transitions, and you got them, you're on their back.

• 20:19Jocko Willink?

  The Boyd Theory defines what is meant by the word maneuver in the term maneuver warfare. Maneuver means Boyd cycling. Boyd cycling the enemy. Being consistently faster through however many OODA loops it takes until the enemy loses its cohesion, until he can no longer fight as an effective, organized force. Avoid cycled enemy panics or becomes passive. This is an ideal outcome for the victor because a panicked passive enemy can be annihilated or captured at the lowest cost in friendly casualties. At other times, the outmaneuvered enemy may continue to fight as individuals or small

• 20:56Jocko Willink?

  units, but because he can no longer act effectively as a force, he is comparatively easy to destroy. So, continuing on, if the object in maneuver warfare is to move through the Oodaloope faster than the enemy, what do you need to do? How can you be consistently faster? Much of the, much of the rest of this book is an effort to address that question. But in terms of general theory, the following points are worth thinking about. One, only a decentralized military can have a fast Oodaloope. If the observations must be passed up the chain of command, the orientation made and

• 21:40Jocko Willink?

  the decision taken at a high level, and the command for action then transmitted back down the chain, the Oodaloope is going to be slow. As the Israeli military historian Martin Van Kreveld has observed, "From Plato to NATO, the history of command in war consists of an endless quest for certainty. Certainty concerning the state and intention of the enemy's forces, certainty concerning the manifold factors which together constitute the environment, from the weather and the terrain to the radioactivity and presence of chemical warfare agents, and, last but

• 22:20Jocko Willink?

  definitely not least, certainty concerning the state and activities of one's own forces." Historical commanders have always faced the choice between two basic ways of coping with uncertainty. One was to construct an army of automatons, following the orders of a single man, allowed to do only that which could be controlled.

• 22:43Jocko Willink?

  That's centralized command. The other, to design organizations and operations in such a way as to enable the former to carry out the latter without the need for continuous control. This second, the second of these methods has, that's decentralized command. The second of these methods has, by and large, proved more successful than the first. And, the ongoing revolution in the technology of command notwithstanding, this is likely to remain so in the future, and indeed, so long as war itself exists.

• 23:20Jocko Willink?

  Very obvious stuff. And, and again, you know, in, in our book, Extreme Ownership, that's one of the principles of combat, decentralized command, and, and this is what it is. If you don't have decentralized command, that, you have to report up the chain of command, that takes time, by the time it gets back down, what the decision, the decision gets made at the higher level, then they pass it back down to you. By the time it gets to you, it's already changed. And that's, in a jujitsu, in a jujitsu comparison, if you, if you have to think about your moves, so you have instinctive moves, muscle memory. When somebody starts to pass your guard, you get the underhook.

• 24:02Jocko Willink?

  If you have to think about getting the underhook, and you have to command your body to get the underhook, they already got the underhook on you. Yeah. So it's the same thing here. That's, that's decentralized command.

• 24:13Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, number two. Maneuver warfare means you will not only accept confusion and disorder, and operate successfully within it, through decentralization you will also generate confusion and disorder. I love that. That's just awesome, right? It's not just saying, hey, look, things are getting confusing, but I'm actually going to create the confusion, I'm going to make it happen. That's something, any, when you see the really good jujitsu guys, I mean Glover does that. Glover creates confusion, he creates mayhem, he creates chaos in the game, in the, in the match. He wants the scramble to happen, he wants to go as long as possible.

• 24:50Jocko Willink?

  The reconnaissance pull tactics of the German blitzkrieg were inherently disorderly. Now, this is something that's very contrary to what people think of the German military and even the German culture. German culture is very orderly. And here we say that the blitzkrieg was inherently disorderly. Back to the book, higher headquarters could neither direct nor predict the exact path of the advance. But the multitude of German reconnaissance thrusts generated massive confusion among the French in 1940. Each was reported as a new attack. The Germans seemed to be everywhere. And the French, whose system demanded certainty before making any decisions, were paralyzed.

• 25:32Jocko Willink?

  It's very interesting to think about that idea of we all want to have certainty in what's going to happen. And how in battle and in life, if you wait until you're 100% certain, you're probably going to be too late.

• 25:51Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of certainty, three, all patterns, recipes, and formulas are to be avoided. The enemy must not be able to predict your actions. If your tactics follow predictable patterns, the enemy can easily cut inside your Oodaloope. If he can predict what you will do, he will be waiting for you. This is why it's so hard to tell someone how to do maneuver warfare. There is no formula you can learn. When someone says, "Cut all the bull about theory, just tell me what to do," you can't. You can talk about how to think and about some useful techniques, but you can't give

• 26:33Jocko Willink?

  new formulas to replace the ones currently taught. Instead of a checklist or a cookbook, maneuver warfare requires commanders who can sense more than they can see. Who understand the opponent's strengths and weaknesses and their own, and who can find the enemy's critical weaknesses in a specific situation. They must be able to create multiple threats and keep the enemy uncertain as to which one is real. They must be able to see their options in the situation before them, constantly create new options, and shift rapidly among options as the situation develops.

• 27:12Jocko Willink?

  General Hermann Balk, one of the most successful practitioners of maneuver warfare, said, "I'm against the school approach that says, 'In accordance with the ideas of the general staff, in this situation, you must do thus and such.' On the contrary, you must proceed as dictated by the personalities involved and the particulars of the situation." So he got a German, successful German general, and he's actually saying you react based, not just on the situation of the, on the ground, but on the personalities involved. Leadership is an art, my friend.

• 27:56Jocko Willink?

  Therefore, one of the first principles has to be, "There can be no fixed schemes." Every scheme, every pattern is wrong. No two situations are identical. That is why the study of military history can be extremely dangerous. Another principle that follows from, is, from this, is, "Never do the same thing twice." Even if something works well for you once, by the second time, the enemy will have adapted. So you have to think of something new. No one thinks of becoming a great painter simply by imitating Michelangelo. Similarly, you can't become a great military leader just by imitating someone. It has to come from within.

• 28:41Jocko Willink?

  In the last analysis, military command is an art. One man can do it, and most will never learn. Little bit of maneuver warfare. And, so, so, at the, the way the book is broken up, this book is called Maneuver Warfare Handbook, it's, it goes into, uh, it breaks into another section, which we're gonna get to in a minute. But, he kinda goes into a little bit, Lind now goes into a little bit, talking about education and training.

• 29:21Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. "It is my great," and this is a quote, "it is my great and constant hope that the Marine Corps will produce some outstanding man for this country. Such men are somewhere, and they may as well be in our classes as anywhere else. I do not want such a person to be hammered down by narrowness and dogmas, to have his mind cramped by compulsory details. It is my constant ambition to see the Marine officers filled with ambition, initiative, and originality. And they can get these attributes only by liberality of thought, broad thought, that

• 30:04Jocko Willink?

  differs, thought that differs from precedent, and the compulsory imprint of others." And that is a long paragraph that says, "Free your mind." Free your mind. And I love pointing this out, because this is the Marine Corps. That's that, that quote is from the Commandant of Marine Corps Schools Brigadier General J.C. Breckenridge, written in 1934. In 1934, he was saying, "People, Marine Corps officers, don't go by the book. Don't obey what other people said." He wants them filled with ambition, that's pretty normal, "but initiative and originality."

• 30:48Jocko Willink?

  He's telling, in order to be a good leader, you gotta free your mind. Now, like I said, the book makes a transition from being the, the, uh, from being the introduction by, by William Lind about maneuver warfare, and then it slides into another section, which is just about as big. And this, this part is called Fundamentals of Tactics. And this section is written by Colonel Michael D. Wiley, United States Marine Corps, and he ran a course, a, a, a Fundamentals of Tactics course, and this is-

• 31:30Jocko Willink?

  Sort of the, this is the, this is the notes from the course when he would teach this course, the fundamentals of tactics. And Colonel Wiley, kinda interesting, he went to the, went to the, he was an enlisted Marine, then he went to the Naval Academy, and he was Jim Webb's company commander in Vietnam, and Jim Webb is a fairly famous guy. He was a Navy Cross winner. He is a, now, he was a Senator from Virginia. He wrote a book called Fields of Fire. And then, there's another great book called The Nightingale Song, which is, it

• 32:10Jocko Willink?

  follows a couple, five or so, yeah, I think it's, it's Webb, McCain, Oliver North, McFarlane, I think, and, and John Poindexter. Anyways, very prominent graduates from the Naval Academy that all kind of stood out and were, were connected throughout the book. So, this guy, so Jim Webb is this, is this kind of famous guy, and this guy that wrote this was, was Jim Webb's company commander in Vietnam. So that's, kinda, it's a small world, and things tie together. So, now we get into these lectures that he wrote, and

• 32:53Jocko Willink?

  I don't mean to lecture anybody, but, hey, they're called lectures in this book. I would just call them free throw information, that we're gonna learn from. And the first, the first section is called Surfaces and Gaps. The concept of surfaces and gaps is one of several concepts that bear on tactics. It is unimportant whether you refer to this concept as surfaces and gaps, or soft spot tactics, or simply the idea of pitting your strength against the enemy's weaknesses. That is what it is all about. Strength against weakness. Call it what you will. The term surfaces and gaps is derived from a German

• 33:34Jocko Willink?

  term, flaken und lückentaktik, which means simply, the tactics of surfaces and gaps. The surfaces being the enemy's strong points, which we avoid, the gaps being the weak points that we want to go through.

• 33:52Jocko Willink?

  Now, Liddell Hart, who we talked about already today,

• 33:56Jocko Willink?

  called it "The Expanding Torrent System Tactic." He drew an analogy between attacking an attacking army and a torrent of water. If we watch a torrent bearing down on each successive bank of earth and dam in its path, we see that it first beats against the obstacle, feeling and testing it on all points. Eventually, it finds a small crack. Through this crack, pour the first driplets of water and rush straight on. The pent-up water on each side is drawn towards the breach. It swirls through around the flanks of the breach, wearing away the earth on each side, and so widening the gap. Simultaneously, the water behind pours straight through that breach between the

• 34:41Jocko Willink?

  side eddies, which are wearing away the flanks. Directly it is passed through. It expands to widen once more the onreaching of the torrent. Thus, as the water pours through it in at an ever-increasing volume, the onreaching of the torrent swells to its original proportion, leaving in turn each crumbling obstacle behind it.

• 35:05Jocko Willink?

  Long paragraph. But that's how water gets through things. Finds the weak point and piles on.

• 35:15Jocko Willink?

  The idea of putting surfaces and gaps tactics into practice was first implemented by the German army in World War I. This is stuff that everybody should know, especially military people. In 1918, as they prepared for Ludendorff's Spring Offensive, the German army changed its offensive tactics. The Germans had found that they were being overpowered by the material available to the British and the French. The Americans were coming, and it was clear that Germany was going to lose if she did not do something differently. Because they did not have the option of matching the Allies' strength and material, the Germans decided that they would have to outthink them. That is, they would have to have better tactics.

• 35:57Jocko Willink?

  Germany did not succeed in winning the war. It was too late by this time. They were surrounded. The women and children were starving at home. It was simply too late for them to win. Yet, they made some tactical progress there at the last, at last, in the spring of 1918. They inflicted terrible defeats on their enemies to the point that the Allied armies were seriously considering the prospect of giving up. At the tactical level, the Germans put their strength against weakness. They sought the gaps. Small assault groups called Sturmgruppen sought gaps in the enemy lines and attacked through them assaulting with light machine guns, rifles, grenades, and flamethrowers,

• 36:39Jocko Willink?

  while heavy machine guns, direct and indirect weapons, including trench mortars, were used to suppress enemy strong points.

• 36:48Jocko Willink?

  But on the strategic level, the spring of 1918 offensive failed. Why? Because Ludendorff, on that level, put strength against strength. He was seek, though he was seeking gaps, he was seeking gaps at the enemy's strong points. That's a very, that's a great, great information to have. So yeah, the guys on the ground were attacking the weak points, but the strategic picture, they were still attacking a strong area. So you might have found a little weakness in a wall, a little weakness in the wire, a little weakness in the trench, but they were attacking a, let's say, a 20-mile trench that was, overall, was a strong area. Whereas they should have looked for where the flanks are 100 miles away.

• 37:32Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. The idea of putting strength against weakness was, of course, born way before 1918. Clausewitz writes about it in chapter nine and 10 of book seven. In chapter nine, regarding defensive positions, he states, "The attack cannot prevail against them. It has no means at its disposal to counteract their advantage." In practice, not all defensive positions are like this. If the attacker sees that he can get away without assaulting them, it would be stupid of him not to attempt it. It would be stupid of him to attempt it. "It is a risky business to attack an able opponent in a good position." Same thing we heard from Sun Tzu. You don't attack the heavily defended positions.

• 38:21Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Employment of this concept of surfaces and gaps then gives us many advantages over what could be called slower moving forms of combat where strength is thrown against strength. Attacking through gaps, avoiding surfaces, gives us an advantage of economy of force. If we are pitted strength against strength assaulting enemy strong points, we are consuming our manpower as well as ammunition and supplies as we go along. If we go through the gaps, we are practicing economy of force. We are reaching our objective without using up our men. We are leaving the enemy behind. Because we are moving faster, we have the advantage of rapid exploitation.

• 39:02Jocko Willink?

  So when you attack, obviously, you attack weaknesses, you lose less, you lose less men. Now, this is important. The concept of surfaces and gaps demands leadership from the front as opposed to leadership from the rear. The commander must be where he can make swift decisions. He must be where the situation is developing. Obviously, leadership from the front had become a scarcity in World War I. JFC Fuller, in his book, Generalship, wrote, "In the World War, nothing was more dreadful to witness than a chain of men, starting with a battalion commander and ending with an army commander, sitting in telephone boxes,

• 39:45Jocko Willink?

  improvised or actual, talking, talking, talking, in place of leading, leading, leading." The result was unresponsive leadership and slow reactions. We actually talked about this on the last podcast when Leif was talking about being in an assault force and being in the assault train, which is 20 guys, 15 or 20 guys, and he was standing always at the end of the train because that's where he was told he was supposed to be. And he didn't know what was going on the front, so he couldn't help, he couldn't make any decisions. If someone was going to, if he needed to make a decision, well, he couldn't even make a decision because he didn't know what was going on up there. But if someone said, "Hey, we need a decision from the boss," they had to pass that word all the way back.

• 40:29Jocko Willink?

  Not good.

• 40:32Jocko Willink?

  So you've got to lead from the front with decentralized command and be far enough to find, I don't want to make it sound that simple. You've got to be, it's the same thing we talked about with life. You've got to be far enough forward that you can understand what's happening up there and obviously, but you don't want to be the guy that's doing the shooting because then you've gone too far forward to actually be detached and make decisions.

• 40:56Jocko Willink?

  Certainly combat is not going to be that simple. The gap then might be any undefended point or any weakly defended point. It may be any enemy vulnerability. It might be the enemy's flanks. The term flank itself needs some elaboration. Think of it as a relative thing. John Boyd defines a flank as that aspect, that aspect toward which a force is not devoting its primary attention. In other words, in fluid warfare, what is one moment the enemy's flank, might the next moment be the enemy's front? It depends on how he is directing his attention. A gap for the infantry could be an enemy missile

• 41:37Jocko Willink?

  site manned by troops who are not combat oriented. The missile site might be a surface if you are flying on an airplane, but a gap if you are a light infantryman who has gotten inside enemy lines.

• 41:52Jocko Willink?

  So, does that make sense to you? So if you've got a, if you've got a surface to air missile launcher and it, it has a radar, radar on it and it can track aircraft coming in and if you're a fighter aircraft, you don't want to stay away, you want to stay away from that thing because it'll get you locked on radar and it's going to fire a heat seeking missile at you and kill you.

• 42:14Jocko Willink?

  So for them, it's a surface. It's a strong point. For an aircraft, it's a strong point. But for a ground troop, they don't put, you know, the highest level troops guarding these things because they're in the rear a little bit. They put like, kind of, you know, some, what do they call them here?

• 42:31Jocko Willink?

  They're manned by troops who are not combat oriented. So that means it's a softer target.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:38Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Let us say we are unsuccessful in finding any gaps. We may have to create gaps, and there are ways of doing this. So then they talk about the ways you can do it. You can do it through firepower by dropping bombs, by suppression, by assault. All those different ways to create gaps with, you know, using direct fire to soften up targets.

• 43:04Jocko Willink?

  And then I like these tactics a little bit better. Another way of creating gaps is through supporting attacks. By attacking one point along the line, we may divert the enemy from another point, and by drawing him off, create a gap. Again, this is in linear terms for instructional purposes, for simplicity. But do not get a linear mindset. Sometimes, a less costly way of creating a gap is through deception. By causing the enemy to think that we will attack at one point, thereby enticing him to draw his forces off from another point. And when we attack that point where he has weakened himself. But what do we do about surfaces, that is, strong points? Sometimes, they are best bypassed.

• 43:48Jocko Willink?

  Once the enemy has been bypassed, his strong point may be cut off from its support, and in that way, his strong point eventually withers away and becomes a weak point which we can attack later.

• 44:03Jocko Willink?

  You know, we talk a lot in here about not attacking people's defensible positions, and this is just classic, another way of saying that. You know, we talk about people with got the ego, the big ego, and how you don't want to confront that ego. Well, if you can bypass the ego, eventually the ego doesn't become a factor anymore. And that's the same thing when you're doing ground combat.

• 44:25Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. There are certain problems presented by the concept of surfaces and gaps, especially to commanders who are used to slow-moving forms of combat. One is that the commander will not always know where all his people are. In the Marine Corps, we've become used to being accountable at all times for knowing exactly where every man is. In this faster-moving form of combat, to do so would be impossible. Your subordinates are finding the gaps and exploiting them. So you've got, you're a control freak. You're not going to be able to pull this off. Cause I'm saying, "Echo, where are you? Echo, where are you? Echo, where are you?" No, Echo's out there, he's working. He's finding some gaps to get through. Not know exactly where he is.

• 45:08Jocko Willink?

  Another problem is that artillery in air might not be, may not be controlled as closely as is possible in slowing, slower moving forms of combat. So you start to deal with the problems of, of air support. And artillery is a little trickier to use, because you have people moving around the battlefield and you're not sure where everyone is. And that makes it very difficult, because you obviously don't want to drop bombs on your own people. Another problem associated with the concept of surfaces and gaps is that as we penetrate deeply, often on narrow fronts, our flanks become exposed. There are, however, compensating factors again related to speed. We are moving quickly. The enemy is always off balance.

• 45:51Jocko Willink?

  Remember the old adage, "There is security in speed."

• 45:56Jocko Willink?

  So, in other words, as you penetrate into a, into a zone, you're going to be exposed a little bit. But if you're moving fast, you can deal with that exposure.

• 46:08Jocko Willink?

  Critics of these faster moving forms of combat characterized by initiative at the low level fear that they will lead groups, to groups of men moving willy nilly about the battlefield, and that commanders will lose control. So people say, "Oh, you know, if I give so much, so much initiative at the low level, I'm going to lose control of it." And people are going to be running around like chickens with their heads, heads cut off. This need not be so. If the concept of surfaces and gaps is employed properly, it will not be so. That is why we have control measures. The boundary, the limit of advance, the phase line can still be used. It must be remembered that these control measures

• 46:49Jocko Willink?

  should serve their function, but not be rigid lines that cannot be changed or ignored when the situation changes. They should be kept to a minimum and must always be flexible. The tactics must never follow the control measures. On the contrary, the control measures must follow. The tactics and the tactics must always be based on the enemy. Other concepts that will be discussed in the chapters ahead, especially that of the main effort, gives us meaning, gives us means of keeping control over our troops and preventing a situation where they can be said to be moving willy nilly about the battlefield.

• 47:30Jocko Willink?

  So decentralized command, it is challenging and if you don't do it right, you will have chaos. So now we get into the next section and it does say lecture again, but again, I'm not here to lecture anybody. I don't think I, I don't think I can pull that off. The concept, this one, this section is called mission tactics. The concept of mission tactics like surfaces and gaps must always be at work in battle. The name is, the name is derived from the German Auftragstaktik, which means literally mission tactics.

• 48:13Jocko Willink?

  It is no accident that the name includes the word tactics. Assigning a mission and depending on subordinates to carry it out constitutes the tactic. To allow the subordinate to decide on his own initiative what to do is the means of getting the most appropriate decisions made on the spot and acted on more rapidly than the enemy can respond to your actions. Got to get your subordinate leadership to lead. You want them to lead. This is the account of Prince Frederick Charles, who is giving a ton lashing to one of his majors for committing a tactical blunder.

• 48:57Jocko Willink?

  In defense of his action, the major explained that he was only following orders. In the Prussian army, the major reminded the prince, an order from a senior officer was tantamount to an order from the king. The prince was unimpressed. His reply to the major was, "The king made you a major because he thought you were smart enough to know when not to obey orders."

• 49:20Jocko Willink?

  And that is the essence of mission tactics. The subordinate decides what to do even if it means that the order issued by his senior now should be changed or adjusted. The mission assigned is sacred. The mission is the output that the commander wants. That does not change. But how that output is to be achieved may change. And it's up to the intelligent subordinate to decide whether or not it has.

• 49:54Jocko Willink?

  Total freedom for the subordinate leadership to figure out how they want to make this happen. They know what they need to get done. But they have the freedom to figure out how they're going to make it happen. Back to the book. There is a classic example used time and time again in introducing the student to mission tactics. It is simple and of value, so it will be used again here. The subordinate is giving the mission of getting his unit across the river. Getting his unit across the river is the output the senior desires. The route that he has been given crosses the nearest bridge. The junior commander arrives at the site to find that the bridge has been destroyed. He does not stop. He does not wait for new orders.

• 50:37Jocko Willink?

  He does not request permission to change his route. He goes to the nearest ford several kilometers distance and he crosses there. He informs the senior, of course, as soon as he can, but he does not wait. Remember, mission orders are necessary to give the tempo of operations the rapidity that it must have if we are to keep the enemy off balance. So that's a very simple example. I tell Echo, "Hey, I need your troops to cross that river. Go across that bridge." You get there, the bridge is out, you're like, "Well, I'm still going to get across the river. Here's, let's find another place we can go across or let's make it happen." And you're going to make it happen. Not gonna bother me, you're not gonna call me back, you're not gonna be, "Hey, the bridge is out, what do you want me to do?" Now, something that this is a little bit,

• 51:23Jocko Willink?

  this is a little bit simplified, because the reality is, if you're gonna start moving kilometers away from where I anticipated you being, you need to tell me that you're moving. You need to tell me, because I might have other friendly units in the area that might, don't expect you, I might have, be dropping bombs in that area, so, this is, this is actually leaving out some critical coordination that does have to happen, but the initiative to make it happen, should happen.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it seems like you, um, like, in the, in the process of that decentralized command, the person carrying out the order, is, it's kinda to his discretion how much he's gonna deviate when something changes, like, he can't, he's, of course he's gonna deviate, he's gonna make those adjustments, but, you don't wanna deviate too much.

• 52:05Jocko Willink?

  Right, and, and honestly, if I was to give you the directions, "Hey Echo, I need you going across, I need you across the river", I would literally give you some parameters to work with it. I'd say, "Don't go, don't go further south than this area, than this road, and don't go further north than this, you can do whatever you want inside of here." So now you can do, you can do whatever you want inside that box.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, and how you always talk about, you'll, you'll say like, "Why are you going across the river as well?", so...

• 52:29Jocko Willink?

  And, for, speaking of why, here's another example of mission orders. This is an actual example. "Seize control of Route 6 west of the muddy river, in order to destroy enemy forces attempting to escape from Company Bravo's zone of action."

• 52:50Jocko Willink?

  So, it's telling you the why, that's what the "in order to" is. Notice, in the mission order, the phrase "in order to", that is a very important phrase and usually ought to go in the mission order. There's no rule that every mission order contain the phrase "in order to", if you were told, "Attack the enemy company that you see in front of you", it'd probably be highly superfluous to tell you why.

• 53:13Jocko Willink?

  "They are there, they are a threat, why waste the breath?" But, usually, your mission order will have the ability to endure time better if you explain to the subordinate why he is killing... Carrying the mission out. So you called this Echo, turned into a little tactical genius over there, aren't you? In order to, this gives the order, the quality that Eric von Manstein called long-term. It can endure the test of time. Your commander can lose communication with you, yet you can still carry out his intent because you know what he wanted, and you can continue to act within his intent for a long time without checking back.

• 53:52Jocko Willink?

  Understanding the why, as briefed by Lieutenant Colonel Echo Charles. Fixed rules are not appropriate in instructing how to assign missions. Too often, students reject good ideas about tactics because they cannot get their thoughts to fit the format of the operation order that is being demanded. The important thing is that the mission be clear. Compared to clarity, format is of little or no consequence. And this is, we talk about it in Extreme Ownership, that these massive PowerPoint briefs that,

• 54:33Jocko Willink?

  I mean hundreds, literally, you know, 100, 150 slides to try and make the, to try and brief a mission. When, and the leaders would waste so much time trying to put these briefs together, and they would, they wouldn't do the planning that they're supposed to be doing. They wouldn't be thinking. They'd be building PowerPoint slides. And I just had to get these guys to think, and stop, stop working on the PowerPoint. Stop trying to match your font. Stop trying to equalize the hues on each slide to make it look pretty. No, don't care. What I want you to do is think, and I want clarity of mission is the most important thing. As a matter of fact, I had one guy was running training, and a guy says to me, it's one of the, one of the task unit commanders, and he says, "Hey, you

• 55:18Jocko Willink?

  know, what is it, what is it that you're looking for in the brief?" And he's, you know, trying to figure out, "How many slides do I want to see, and what format do I want to see?" And I said, "What I want for the brief is that your men understand the operation." Boom.

• 55:38Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, the subordinate receiving that order must be more talented. Amateur troops, awkward, clumsy, untrained troops cannot be expected to carry out mission orders. Why? Because as a result of their lack of experience, they must be told what to do. Only the professional, experienced leader can know what to do without being told what to do. Because we in the Marine Corps set our standards high, we expect that our subordinates will train until they can perform under mission orders. So, just, I don't know if I made this clear, or if I breezed over this part. Mission orders is exactly what we're talking about when it comes to, hey, just tell the person, this is what I need done. And this is why I want it done. You figure it out. As opposed to telling them exactly what you want them to do.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Commander's intent.

• 56:25Jocko Willink?

  Yes, indeed, commander's intent. Burdens of responsibility increase on both sides. On the part of the senior commander, so when you're doing mission orders, the burden of responsibility increases on the part of the senior commander and on the part of the subordinate. Look first at the senior commander. Operating with mission orders, his orders must be perfectly clear. The onus is on the senior to define to the junior what must be accomplished without telling him how to do it. The onus is not on the junior to ferret out what his commander wants. The senior must state what he wants, otherwise, he should not expect to get it.

• 57:07Jocko Willink?

  Now, I actually, when I, when I teach people this, I tell them that the onus is on the junior. And if, if I tell you to do something, and you don't understand why you're doing it, and you don't understand what my intent is, and you still go in the field and try and do it, I blame you. I mean, it's my fault too, but we're both taking ownership. I might even say we're taking extreme ownership of the situation. But really, if your boss isn't telling you why you're, why you're, why they're telling you to do something, you just raise your hand and ask, hey, boss, what's your objective here? What's your overall intent? What's the commander's intent? Because I want to make sure if I lose communications with you, I can continue to execute towards your desired end state. That's what we're looking for.

• 57:48Jocko Willink?

  An additional burden of responsibility on the senior is that he must train his subordinates and his unit to operate as a team. They are not going to be able to perform mission orders without training. Another new burden of responsibility is that he must expect his subordinates to make mistakes. He may not expect zero defects. Wars are won by people, not machines. People make mistakes. If people are more afraid of making mistakes than they are of exercising initiative now and then, they will not take risks and they will not exercise initiative. Furthermore, they will not win in war. Perhaps the most important new responsibility that is placed on the commander who gives

• 58:30Jocko Willink?

  mission orders is that he must trust his subordinates. If trust breaks down, the whole system breaks down. So, people ask me about trust from time to time, and it's absolutely, and I use, I talk about relationships, the R-word, and that's what, that's what, that's what it is. And Leif and I talked about the other day on the podcast is that just building trust, how, but one of the best ways to build trust is, I give it. I give it. And so that's what goes back and forth, and in the military, you do that when you're in the training environment. When there's no risk, or very, very tiny risk of life and limb, there's no strategic risk, you're not, you're risked, you're not gonna lose the war, so I'm gonna let you run with stuff.

• 59:12Jocko Willink?

  I want you to learn, I want you to take risks, and if you fail, if you screw something up, I don't try and fire you, we try and learn from it. And that encourages you to take initiative and keep getting after it. Now, the, the, we're moving to the next section, which is called "The Main Effort." The commander, in making his plan, must determine what and where his main effort is in every operation, whether it be offensive, defensive, or withdrawal. This main effort should be specified in the operation order.

• 59:56Jocko Willink?

  It should always be clearly stated in paragraph 3A, the concept of operation. There can only be one main effort. When you start giving two or three, or a three-part main effort, you'd better look back at it because the chances are you do, you have not made up your mind what you are trying to do.

• 1:00:20Jocko Willink?

  So if you're trying to plan a mission, you're telling, you're telling people there's three main things we're trying to get done. No, wrong. There should be one.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah, in message conveyance. Um, actually, I think it's in newspaper writing. They call it burying the lead. It's like your main story has to, you know, you can't have three main stories in one article.

• 1:00:44Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  Because, and you know, one story is going to have cool details.

• 1:00:47Jocko Willink?

  Right, right.

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  But you start spending a bunch of time on these cool details. They call that burying the lead.

• 1:00:54Jocko Willink?

  Ah.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  It's a bad deal.

• 1:00:55Jocko Willink?

  So don't do that in the newspaper business? And don't do that on the battlefield.

• 1:01:02Jocko Willink?

  Every unit commander down to the company commander will always assign a main effort and sometimes even a platoon commander should. The entire command must be aware of what and where the main effort is. The commander can change the main effort at any time. This is what gives the operation its fluidity. And, and this is one of the pretty common issues that we run, ran into it when I was running training. Run into it now in the business world where you've worked with a company and they're not, they're not assigning a main effort. They were concentrating on 14 different things at the same time. They don't prioritize and execute. This is another form of prioritize and execute.

• 1:01:44Jocko Willink?

  And that's a problem because if you're trying to do 14 things at once, you're going to not accomplish any of them.

• 1:01:52Jocko Willink?

  The German word for main effort is Schwertpunkt. Anytime in your readings, when you see that, and often you will see it written in italics, the German word Schwertpunkt, take note because it is one of the most important underlying concepts in everything the Germans do. Make the main effort where the enemy least expects you.

• 1:02:15Jocko Willink?

  Make the enemy, make the main effort where the enemy is weak. Be prepared to be surprised.

• 1:02:23Jocko Willink?

  So, let's go, I gotta, I gotta stop right there. It's interesting, you know, when you see the big fortified area of the enemy, you say, "Okay, we're gonna, we, we better, we better attack that hard." No, wrong answer. That's a surface, we're looking for gaps. So, don't make the main effort the, the strong point, make it the weak point. Back to the book, be, be prepared to be surprised. Be leery of the counsel, do not ever be surprised. In war, you will be surprised. The task is to learn to deal with surprise. If what you thought would be an enemy weakness becomes the enemy's strength, you should not be disrupted. If your taxes, tactics are fluid, you can deal with surprise.

• 1:03:06Jocko Willink?

  You will shift your main effort to enemy weakness and go on through. That is how the main effort works in the offense.

• 1:03:15Jocko Willink?

  Fluidity.

• 1:03:18Jocko Willink?

  Remember, we've been hearing a lot about in the Vietnam War, the Vietcong were too rigid. They would just try their plan, didn't have the fluidity.

• 1:03:27Jocko Willink?

  The main effort should be directed against enemy weakness, not enemy strength. Here, you see the interconnection between the concepts, the connection between the concept of the main effort and the concept of surfaces and gaps. All the concepts work together at the same time. The main effort cannot be understood in isolation from surfaces and gaps because it is directed against enemy weakness.

• 1:03:52Jocko Willink?

  And another, another, one of the four laws of combat that we talk about in the book, Extreme Ownership, is simplicity. Simple. Back to the book, even the principle of simplicity can be recognized in the concept of the main effort. Instead of trying to do ten different things, we are focusing on one. There will be many other efforts going on at the same time, but all in some way directed at making the main effort succeed. So, what do you gain from this main effort? You gain direction, you great, you gain fluidity, you gain speed, and you prevent dissipating your efforts all over the battlefield.

• 1:04:33Jocko Willink?

  The way the Poles did when the Germans invaded Poland. They tried to defend their entire 800 mile front. There was no main effort. And by trying to be strong everywhere, they were in fact, strong nowhere. This trying to cover all the bases is a common error in the amateur commander's plan. It is a symptom of avoidance of decision making. Avoidance of decision making. So if you're not saying, "Hey, here's what we're gonna focus on." You're just, "Well, I'm gonna wait. I don't wanna decide yet. Oh, I'm not ready to commit." By establishing a main effort, you make a clear decision.

• 1:05:12Jocko Willink?

  You obviate the necessity for junior officers to keep asking for guidance. If they know their commander's main effort, they can continue to operate even though communications may be cut. And they can continue to operate at a high tempo because they need not keep checking back for new orders.

• 1:05:35Jocko Willink?

  And here we get to another something you might recognize from our book, Extreme Ownership. When the commander has made this decision, he has done something very necessary. He has done something very ethical. He has assumed and taken responsibility. For what will happen if the battle goes awry? He cannot blame his subordinates. He can only blame himself. It was he who decided what was to be done. And designated a main effort in order to do it. Therefore, it takes courage and moral character to select a main effort.

• 1:06:14Jocko Willink?

  That is why the weak commander and the amateur so often fail to do this. In fact, the weak commander will actively avoid choosing a main effort. It's very convenient for the commander weak in character to avoid selecting the main effort. Because if the battle goes unfavorably, he can blame someone else for the mistake. The commander who has taken the stand and selected his own main effort cannot do this. Therefore, in a sense, the main effort is a moral commitment. Taking some ownership by selecting the main effort. And you gotta dig that.

• 1:07:00Jocko Willink?

  The next concept in again, you know, I'm cruising through this book like I always do, only reading, I don't know, probably a very small percentage of it, 15%, and there's a ton in here. And it actually has some very cool, like, exercises where it gives you a scenario that's happening and you go through and you figure out what you would do and it gives you a good solution. So it's got, it's got, it's a great book to look at. The next lecture is called "The Concept of the Objective." According to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, publication

• 1:07:41Jocko Willink?

  number one, Dictionary of Military in Associated Terms, "The objective is the physical object of the action taken, a definite tactical feature, seizure and/or holding of which is essential to the commander's plan." That definition is clear enough. Basil Liddell Hart would have disagreed with the JCS definition. At one point in his writings, Liddell Hart stated, "The only real objective is the enemy." Liddell Hart's statement is also quite clear and understandable, especially when we realize that whether we are attacking or defending, the problem is always the enemy. Once the enemy is taken out of the action, defending and attacking are no longer necessary.

• 1:08:32Jocko Willink?

  Now, the, the, I guess the controversy here, if we could call it that, is the objective not being a specific piece of terrain. It's the, the objective is the enemy. But, that being said, the terrain, of course, is extremely important. We must use it to gain advantage. But the object of the attack is the enemy. The objective must be to take the enemy out of action, to destroy him, to disarm him. We cannot do that simply by seizing a piece of terrain and holding it. We must be prepared to move continually, wherever necessary, to confuse and disrupt him through a combination of fire and movement.

• 1:09:20Jocko Willink?

  When the term "objective" appears, it means an aiming point. That towards which we direct our efforts in order to best use the terrain to accomplish our final goal, the destruction of the enemy.

• 1:09:35Jocko Willink?

  The ability to wisely select an objective is the mark of a good commander. The inability is the mark of an amateur, and history is replete with examples of poorly selected objectives. There were hills fought for bravely by Marines in Vietnam after they ceased being of any tactical value. Lives were thrown away for meaningless terrain, terrain that did not meet either of the two main criteria for selecting an objective. The two main criteria are, one, that it be useful to you, or two, dear to your enemy. If it is neither one of these, it is probably not worth the life of a single Marine.

• 1:10:20Jocko Willink?

  Any good commander will therefore select terrain that is useful to him. The great commander will have the ability to select terrain that is dear to the enemy.

• 1:10:36Jocko Willink?

  And the final concept is the concept of the reserve.

• 1:10:45Jocko Willink?

  General JFC Fuller of the British Army, the original author of the nine principles of war that the US Army was to adopt in the 1920s, once stated that of all the principles he developed, the most important was economy of force. He reasoned that whichever side still had forces left after the other sides had been committed was bound to win. Napoleon seems to have had similar thoughts when he observed that whoever still had his reserve remaining after his enemy had committed his reserve would win the battle.

• 1:11:19Jocko Willink?

  And here's another quote in here from Napoleon that I think when they're talking about committing, and it talks about your mindset on the battlefield.

• 1:11:31Jocko Willink?

  From Napoleon. If I appear to be always ready to reply to everything, it is because before undertaking anything, I have meditated for a long time. I have foreseen what might happen. It is not a spirit which suddenly reveals to me what I have to say or do in a circumstance unexpected by others. It is a reflection, a meditation.

• 1:12:01Jocko Willink?

  So Napoleon, he was going to have these quick reactions and everyone says, "Wow, he must have just had this incredible..." You know, he's calling a spirit that just comes to him and says, "Hey, move these guys over here. Hey, assault that flank." No, he already thought through this thing for hours. And he said, "Oh, if they do this, I'm gonna do that. If they come over here, I'm gonna be ready over here."

• 1:12:21Jocko Willink?

  Preparation.

• 1:12:24Jocko Willink?

  What Napoleon was saying was that thorough thought in advance prepared him to make split-second decisions when the situation suddenly changed.

• 1:12:39Jocko Willink?

  Preparation.

• 1:12:42Jocko Willink?

  Preparation is key.

• 1:12:47Jocko Willink?

  Now, that wraps up the book and I hope that it provides some reminders and some insight to people, not only to the warfighters out on the battlefield, but as I said in the beginning, I hope it provides some details into dealing with humans, with people, and problems in the business world, in leadership positions, on that jujitsu mat, in life.

• 1:13:15Jocko Willink?

  Whatever you're doing or whatever you're trying to get done, think of how you can use maneuver warfare to make it happen.

• 1:13:28Jocko Willink?

  And I guess we can uh go over to some some questions

• 1:13:35Jocko Willink?

  from the interwebs and I guess before we go to the interwebs, maybe you could tell us about the interwebs and

• 1:13:44Jocko Willink?

  what we can do to support.

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  Support by being on the interwebs. If you're on the interwebs and you're in the mood to support this podcast and/or yourself

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  with supplementation, go to onit.com/jaco Get on it supplements are the best ones.

• 1:14:04Jocko Willink?

  I like that idea.

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's a good idea. Krill oil for sure for your joints and Alpha brain.

• 1:14:11Jocko Willink?

  Some of that Alpha brainy.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:12Jocko Willink?

  Some shroom tech, sport mode.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, shroom tech sport if you're into performance. Physical activity, performance.

• 1:14:20Jocko Willink?

  If you feel you need a little turbo boost.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it was funny, remember um

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  Tim Kennedy put it in like real, real good terms in my opinion when he, he was like, oh uh yeah, when I took the shroom tech, it's kinda like cuz, okay, so you don't wanna get confused and be like, hey, I'm gonna take the shroom tech and it's like a, like a caffeine boost or something, you know, you don't, cuz it's not that.

• 1:14:42Jocko Willink?

  It's not.

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  So it's, and he put it in these terms where he's like, you know, you, you go a few rounds, you go five, six, seven, eight, you know, however many rounds and everyone's like real poop, but then you're kinda like, I could go a few more rounds. And really, that is exactly how it is.

• 1:14:56Jocko Willink?

  That is the shroom tech.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  Or when you're hitting towards the end of the round or whatever, it's like, you, you feel solid, you know, it just, yeah, I guess apparently what it does is it helps you utilize your oxygen consumption.

• 1:15:05Jocko Willink?

  And you'll feel it on a workout. I mean, obviously you're talking about jujitsu, which for those people that don't train jujitsu, which you should, but if you don't, well, you should. But you're also gonna keep working out and you have the you know, you, so, sort of a metabolic conditioning type, type workout situation going on.

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  Remember how I was telling you I did my Metcon metabolic conditioning after I do like normal lifting?

• 1:15:30Jocko Willink?

  I've been doing the reverse of that lately.

• 1:15:32Speaker 01

  Really? I don't know.

• 1:15:33Jocko Willink?

  Cause I'm super warmed up. I'm dripping with sweat.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:37Jocko Willink?

  And I just, and I feel really good. And then I figure maybe the opposite will happen. Cause we both know if you go with your, with your strength movements first, you take a little bit off your Metcon strength, right?

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:49Jocko Willink?

  If, if you do, and so that way when you do the Metcon fresh, you feel like Superman, right? Cause you blasted your muscles out. So I've been doing the reverse though, when I'm doing the Metcon type first, and then I just breathe it out and then I get onto the heavy stuff.

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I dig it. The only reason I say I dig it because you're savage like that, but consider, cause those are two, well, it depends, depends on what kind of lifting you're doing. So let's say if not, well, if you're lifting like for strength or, or you know, muscle growth or whatever, you should do that first because the results you seek are in line with you having full energy, you lifting.

• 1:16:29Jocko Willink?

  I, I agree with you. I actually think you're correct.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  And the Metcon isn't, the results of the Metcon is for you to recover from conditioning. See, it's muscular conditioning. So if you're tired going in, that's more conditioning you have to recover from, better exercise. So it's sort of essentially, but hey, if you want to reverse it, give your body some, some, some stuff to, yeah.

• 1:16:49Jocko Willink?

  It's funny, cause I, I completely agree with you. And I've only been doing this for a few, a couple of months. And I, you know what it was? You know what it was? One day I was, I was, and I did like a Metcon, it was pretty strong, I was feeling good.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:17:02Jocko Willink?

  And then I got done, I said, I need a little bit more. So I was like, I'm just gonna move some, you know, do something heavy.

• 1:17:08Speaker 01

  Get my lift on.

• 1:17:09Jocko Willink?

  And when I, when I went heavy, I was like, man, that feels good. You know, I'm all loose, I'm all warm. And so now I've just kind of started doing it a little bit.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. And if you get used to that, then it, it'll start to be more and more beneficial. I used to, I used to run on the treadmill. I used to do like three and a half miles, sometimes four miles and then lift, just because I didn't have time and, and every time I lift, I would never feel like running the, you know, the mile afterwards. On a treadmill, that's why. So I'd be like, you know what, I'm gonna get the, the running out of the way that I'm gonna lift. And then I was like, dang, lifting is, is kinda harder, but I'd way rather endure this discomfort when I'm lifting than when I'm running on the treadmill. But I did that for months and months and months. And then one day I didn't run. I was like, it was weird. I was like stiff.

• 1:17:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  So you kinda get used to it, but e- either way, I mean, well, my original point is, I would, I do the Met now, I do the Metcon after I lift. Doing the Metcon after you lift.

• 1:18:00Jocko Willink?

  That has been my standard for so long.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  Right, but you know how you saying, do the Metcon before you lift, or, or you're just doing the Metcon that day, it's easier.

• 1:18:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  Because you're, you're not a starter lifting.

• 1:18:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  But um, anyway, my, my original point was the shroom tech. So if you're doing that kinda thing after you lift, when you're going into the Metcon, you're gonna feel way better.

• 1:18:21Jocko Willink?

  You wanna hear something cool? So a lot of times, people ask me, what is your workout? Right? They wanna know reps, sets, weights, right? And that's cool, of course. Um, and I haven't, I haven't put it out there for.

• 1:18:38Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'm, I'm, I'm, I got a book, I'm putting together a book.

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  Like an ebook kinda thing?

• 1:18:43Jocko Willink?

  Actually, it's not gonna be an ebook, it's gonna be a real book.

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  Hardcore.

• 1:18:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like a real legit book.

• 1:18:50Jocko Willink?

  Which means it's gonna take a little more time, but I'd rather do it, do it right. But what's interesting is, this is what's so cool. So, people that, people that listen to the podcast and ask and have been applying the basic principles, cuz I have never put, I haven't put out, I don't think I've put out a single workout.

• 1:19:10Jocko Willink?

  Also, people say, what do you actually eat? Right? They wanna know what I had for breakfast, lunch, dinner, what I had for snacks, whatever. All I say is like, oh, you know, I eat mostly, you know, I, I, I low, very low carbs, I eat a lot of meat, I eat a lot of protein, I eat a lot of fat. Okay? What do you do for workouts? I get up early in the morning, I hit it hard. You know, am I doing squats, I'm doing pull-ups, I'm doing, it, it, basic stuff, right? And I've put those basic principles out there. Well, there's people, troopers, that have been applying these basic principles.

• 1:19:44Jocko Willink?

  And they're making incredible progress in their lives. They're getting stronger, they're getting leaner, they're getting in better shape. So it's actually proven, because I remember you and I talked about this a long time ago. I said, listen, it's more about the commander's intent, right? The working out is about the commander's intent. It's not about, I'm going to tell you how many reps and sets to do. I'm going to tell you what you want to make happen.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:09Jocko Willink?

  I'm going to tell you where you want, what, where you want to be at the end of this workout.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:13Jocko Willink?

  Physically and mentally. And, and people have been taking that. And I mean, all kinds of people. Hey, I've lost 28 pounds, I've lost 42 pounds, just from applying the basic principles that I, and, and so those will be consolidated in the book, so that people can follow them, and there'll be some other good stuff in the book, too. Basic philosophy.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Chaco philosophy.

• 1:20:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:37Speaker 01

  Guess what that is?

• 1:20:39Jocko Willink?

  Wow, that was kind of a tangent on, on it, wasn't it?

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  Well, and rightly so. I think, uh,

• 1:20:44Jocko Willink?

  Rightly so.

• 1:20:45Speaker 01

  I think so. It's consistent, right? Which, which actually kind of brings me to my point. The consistency is probably the most overlooked fact, even though people know, yeah, you gotta be consistent, you gotta, but that's kind of everything, because everything else is variable. Like, you can,

• 1:21:00Jocko Willink?

  Consistency is key.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  There's a billion different workouts you can do.

• 1:21:04Jocko Willink?

  By consistency, do you mean

• 1:21:08Jocko Willink?

  doing the same thing, or you just mean doing it every day?

• 1:21:12Speaker 01

  Getting in there and doing it, yeah. Not skipping days, weeks, you know, getting off the horse, you know, that kind of stuff. There's a billion different workouts you can do that will give you results. And there's a million different results that you can, you can kind of strive for and get them. There's just so many. Same thing with diet. Like, you can, you know, people have their rigid diet philosophy, but the fact is that many different diets work. I mean, there's some basic principles. You don't eat a bunch of sugar, you don't eat a bunch of fast food, you don't, you know, the obvious things to avoid. And you can get results with many kinds of diets.

• 1:21:47Jocko Willink?

  And I would go one step further. What you're talking about is consistency? In, in order to have consistency, that requires the discipline. It does require the discipline. So that's the key factor.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:21:59Jocko Willink?

  That is the key factor. And when people apply the discipline to their lives, boom.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  Right. Everything becomes consistent, and that's everything.

• 1:22:07Jocko Willink?

  So the books can come in, the books can talk about that.

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:22:10Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  But yeah, man.

• 1:22:12Jocko Willink?

  How else, how else can we support the podcast?

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  Uh, if you, before you do your Amazon shopping.

• 1:22:17Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  Um, go to jocko podcast dot com or one of the websites, jocko store dot com, click on Amazon link and do your shopping. You can support passively.

• 1:22:28Jocko Willink?

  And you can install that little tool or you can just make it your, your, uh, I put it in my, my, what's that called up at the top?

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  The bookmarks.

• 1:22:37Jocko Willink?

  The bookmarks, yeah. So when I click on Amazon, it's already the Jocko Amazon thing.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's what I, yeah.

• 1:22:43Jocko Willink?

  We go crazy with Amazon.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  Man, how can you not? Dang, yeah, so awesome. And don't call it a little tool. It's not a little tool.

• 1:22:50Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  It's the trooper tool. It's a big deal. It's pretty little. Technically, it's really, anyway, the trooper tool that Brady made.

• 1:22:59Jocko Willink?

  Little tool, big deal. I like that.

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, little, small tool, simple. Um, you go and you can go on the websites and get it. It's called the Jock Podcast Trooper Tool Chrome Extension. What it, all it does, it makes it easy to support podcasts when you do your Amazon shopping. So you don't have to remember that. And it, you know, basically you click on it. Do you want this tool? Click yes. Boom. It's on your little browser there. It automatically directs you to our, our affiliate link, which you can support that way. And it's kind of cool little icon if you, if you, um, yeah, when you do it, this little icon there, it makes it official.

• 1:23:31Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  But you can hide the icon if you don't want to. Just hide it. It goes away if you don't want it. And I understand if you don't, yeah. It's Jocko's face. But anyway, yeah, the trooper tool, that's, that's a good one. That's good, easy, easy way. Cause remembering to go to the website and click through before you do, you know how like you're.

• 1:23:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  You know, you're going in there.

• 1:23:49Jocko Willink?

  Cause you want that thing now.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, you're just like Amazon or it's, you know, so.

• 1:23:53Jocko Willink?

  I want this thing. I want that duct tape now.

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  Yep, yep. Same day deal. Yeah, that's true. So anyway, now you got the trooper tool. Boom. Easy, easy. Um, also, all, obviously by subscribing to the podcast if you haven't already, that one's, that one's a good way to support.

• 1:24:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:24:12Speaker 01

  And, um, the Jocko Store. That's a good one. I think if you like shirts that say discipline equals freedom.

• 1:24:19Jocko Willink?

  Well, most people do have to wear shirts at some juncture during the day.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:24:23Jocko Willink?

  You can't get into the restaurant without a t-shirt on.

• 1:24:25Speaker 01

  On Kauai, you can sometimes.

• 1:24:27Jocko Willink?

  Except in Hawaii.

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  But yeah, there's some shirts on there. If you like them, get a shirt. That's a good way to support. Or a bumper sticker. Elections coming up, Jocko 2016.

• 1:24:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  I saw a car with Jocko 2016 on it.

• 1:24:43Jocko Willink?

  Did you know the person?

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Yes, today.

• 1:24:44Jocko Willink?

  Was it in San Diego?

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, Chris Martin. But still, it's cool to see, you know, when you pull up, you're like, yeah, oh, that's Chris Martin's car. Anyway, it looked cool. He has a nice car, too, by the way. So it looked extra cool, you know? It was like extra official.

• 1:24:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. We got some real supporter out there.

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what it felt like. Um, also,

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  subscribe to the YouTube channel.

• 1:25:08Jocko Willink?

  And you posted your first outtake.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  Starting to put it. It's a deleted scene. It's not an outtake. That's the difference.

• 1:25:17Jocko Willink?

  Keep me tied on those. Deleted scene, if you want to hear Echo Charles talking about alien abduction.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  My kids' book idea.

• 1:25:25Jocko Willink?

  There are about alien abduction. There's a lot of podcasts about it. Is that a subcategory? Because now we're going to fit in that subcategory. Leadership, war, darkness, alien abduction. Maybe that's why it's an outtake.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  That was more like an example, underlying kind of thing. It was more about my children's book idea.

• 1:25:45Jocko Willink?

  Okay, we're good. We're good.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  Anyway, those are the ways. Yep. On dot com slash Jaco, that's a good one. Like I said, for the supplement, 10% off. I forgot to mention that if you don't know. 10% off the supplements. Yeah.

• 1:25:57Jocko Willink?

  Good. I guess with that, let's get down to the questions from the troopers on the interwebs. Getting a lot of questions lately. I don't like it.

• 1:26:10Speaker 01

  I like it too. First question.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  Jaco, if you were coaching McGregor, for those who don't know, that's Conor McGregor, UFC fighter. What would you focus on to try and make up the jujitsu disparity? All defense?

• 1:26:28Jocko Willink?

  Interesting. And if you don't know what's going on.

• 1:26:34Jocko Willink?

  Conor McGregor is fighting Nate Diaz again. 202 UFC. So, a lot of times I don't like to talk about this kind of thing because it's by the time this comes out, it'll be, by the time you're listening to this, it might be over. Don't care anymore. But there is a, a principle here, a concept behind this that does make sense to try and discuss so people can learn and improve and something for me to think about my game. So you got this guy who's a really good striker, going against a guy who's a pretty good striker himself.

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  Very good.

• 1:27:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, very good. And that's one of the things that this is, this is the question, the way it sets it up, as if jiu-jitsu is the, is the only thing that Nate Diaz is better at. That might not necessarily be the truth. And in fact, in their first fight, it was the striking of Nate Diaz that forced Conor McGregor to shoot a sloppy takedown, take it to the ground. And once he got on the ground, the jiu-jitsu from Nate Diaz was just way too much for, for McGregor. So, this question,

• 1:27:46Jocko Willink?

  it's almost a little bit off because the question shouldn't be that there's just a jiu-jitsu disparity. The question should be, you know, what is, how would you make up for the fighting disparity? Or maybe not even that. It's how would you go against, what would you tell Conor? What would you work on?

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, what's the strategy?

• 1:28:05Jocko Willink?

  So, let's just look at it as an overall strategic question. You've got a guy that's pretty, that's, what, what, what is he good at? That's the question. What is he good at? One of the strengths of Conor McGregor, he's fast, he's strong, but strong might not even come to play because our Diaz walking around at 200 pounds right now, they're fighting at 170. So he's going to cut a lot of weight. He's going to be big and strong. He's going to be in better shape for this fight.

• 1:28:30Jocko Willink?

  Conor is pretty good with some unorthodox stuff. His striking is fast and fairly dynamic. So those are the things that he has going for him. What does Nate Diaz have going for him? His jiu-jitsu is really good. Really good. Yeah. Jiu Jitsu sick. His striking is especially his boxing. He's not a big kicker. So. If I was, if I was McGregor, here's what I'd be doing. I mean, would I be working my wrestling? Be working my underhooks, of course. And, and getting control and getting back to my feet. When I get taken down. Immediately getting back to my feet. The way I would fight if I was Conor McGregor is I would.

• 1:29:16Jocko Willink?

  Back off with the hard punches. I would throw a lot of really fast. Light punches and I'd move around a lot and just try and touch and go. That's, that's what I'd do if I was Conor McGregor. I would possibly starting in the middle of the second round, maybe into the third round. Five round fight, I might start throwing some leg kicks. He doesn't. Nate sometimes doesn't even check leg kicks. So maybe you can start putting a hurting on him. If you, if you throw enough of those.

• 1:29:45Jocko Willink?

  But in Jiu Jitsu wise, I would teach him to disengage. Disengage because you don't want to go. You don't want to get in the Oodle loop. With he, the. McGregor does not want to get in an Oodle loop situation. With, with Diaz because he can't keep up with him. He'll be, he'll be changing. He'll be going to the next thing, going to the next thing, going to the next thing, going to the next thing. And Conor McGregor will get caught behind and he'll. Won't be able to do it. So I teach him to get, now one thing that does make Jiu Jitsu a little bit harder. If you're, if you and I are doing Jiu Jitsu. And your goal, you're not, you, you actually disengage from me and you're just like your whole goal. If we were on the mat shook hands.

• 1:30:27Jocko Willink?

  Slap bump and we're going to roll and all you did try to do is stay away from me. It would be a really hard round for me. It would be harder than if you attacked me. Yeah. It's harder than if you attacked me. And when I did take you down, all you did was try and get back up. You didn't try and. Close the guard, you didn't try and attack me with any submissions. You just tried to get back up and get away from me. That is a much harder round for me. Then if you actually come at me with your full board Jiu Jitsu. Right. Because then it's Jiu Jitsu versus Jiu Jitsu and I have an advantage. Yep. But if it's Jiu Jitsu of mine versus run away from you. Now I gotta run after you. Now it's, it's, it's a more fair fight.

• 1:31:06Jocko Willink?

  So that's what, that's what McGregor needs to do. He needs to use his speed and his.

• 1:31:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, uses speed and I think that's his biggest advantage. The other thing that I, the other thing that I find about the Diaz brothers that I wish that I could, I could, I wish they, I wish they would not train so much triathlon and train more explosiveness. I wish he was a little bit stronger, both Nate and Nick. I mean, those guys are awesome and they're, they're great fighters, but they, they really train, they do, they do literally do triathlons. And so you're not getting explosive muscles. Now it shows that they have great cardio, but I'd rather just they were a little bit more explosive. That's, that's my personal opinion.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I dig it. I have no advice. I think Nate Diaz is so well-rounded in this, as far as this matchup goes.

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:32:03Speaker 01

  Like, just like that first fight.

• 1:32:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the first fight though, you watch the first round, it's not, it's not a pushover. It's gonna be a tough fight, man.

• 1:32:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, and that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying

• 1:32:14Jocko Willink?

  I'm just making sure.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  As far, you know, you know how like, you know, you, you attack the weaker points, right? You know, like let's say I'm a way better striker than one guy and his jiu-jitsu is way better than mine. I can stay on it. You know, it's obvious that's where I'm gonna attack, but in this case, it's not like that.

• 1:32:27Jocko Willink?

  It's not like that.

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I don't know, man.

• 1:32:30Jocko Willink?

  The tough one. It's a tough fight for Connor. It's a tough fight for Nate too. I mean, there were some, yeah.

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:38Jocko Willink?

  It wasn't, even though the ending of the fight was very lopsided.

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:42Jocko Willink?

  The, the first round, it was a little closer and I think Connor thought he had magic.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:49Jocko Willink?

  Thought that some of the, he even said at the post-fight press conference, he said, you know, he was the bigger man.

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:56Jocko Willink?

  And, and I, I hit him with everything I got. Most of those would stop a smaller man.

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:01Jocko Willink?

  They didn't stop him. And I, I think that's gotta be, that's gotta be hard.

• 1:33:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:05Jocko Willink?

  I think that got to him psychologically. So if he's prepared for that psychologically this time, maybe he'll be able to stick with a game plan and not shoot.

• 1:33:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:14Jocko Willink?

  On him, which was ridiculous.

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and even the shoot, it wasn't just like, hey, I'm gonna decide to shoot. It was kinda like a, a, you know, a ditch effort. Yeah, kinda. Kind of rocked too and now you you shoot, you're rocked and you have to contend with Nate Diaz's jujitsu.

• 1:33:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:28Speaker 01

  So it's like, it's not just, I gotta contend with Nate Diaz's jujitsu, which is bad enough, by the way.

• 1:33:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  But you're rocked and it was like a desperation thing, then you gotta deal with it, then you get that. So it seemed like, oh, it was so quick, but it's, it was like, it was just a bunch of compounding factors and

• 1:33:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:41Speaker 01

  culminated in that, the choke.

• 1:33:43Jocko Willink?

  Didn't work out. Looking forward to watching that.

• 1:33:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:45Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 1:33:46Speaker 01

  Next question. Jocko, like you, many leaders began as rebels.

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  Jocko's a rebel. I'll tell you about his band, one day. How did you learn to see the game?

• 1:33:59Jocko Willink?

  Oh, when I was a kid?

• 1:34:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:34:01Jocko Willink?

  That Elgin told you about?

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. And that you told me about too. How did you learn to see the game? And are rule followers at a disadvantage?

• 1:34:13Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so yeah, I was a rebellious youth.

• 1:34:19Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, when I got in the SEAL teams, I was kind of a rebel, a rebel as well. And as a matter of fact, if you think about it from a certain perspective, being in special operations, especially when I came in, being in special operations is almost a form of rebellion in its own right. Cause you're saying, look, the regular stuff, I'm gonna do the regular stuff.

• 1:34:39Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:34:39Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna do the other stuff.

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:42Jocko Willink?

  So

• 1:34:44Jocko Willink?

  that was my attitude. You know, I thought, oh, regular Navy, nah, I'm doing this. You know, so that was my rebellion. And, and, and like I've explained before, joining the military, I grew up in, in New England, not a lot of, not a huge military proponent up there. And so, that was, it was almost a rebellious thing. And matter of fact, it was a rebellious thing for me to join the military in the first place. So these are the kind of things that were rebellious. And yes, we were, we were, my buddies and me were rebel youth with some rebellious rock and roll bands back in the day. So.

• 1:35:22Jocko Willink?

  When I got to the SEAL teams, we actually were, I kind of maintained that, you know, like, we're gonna be hardcore, we're gonna be, maybe the word isn't rebel, but we were, we were like outsiders, you know, we were like going hard and the group of guys I was with, when the guys I went through SEAL training with that went to SEAL Team One with me, back in the day,

• 1:35:45Jocko Willink?

  you know, we, we, we were getting after it. We were pushing hard. We were, you know, being hardcore. And I actually got told to stand down a few times for doing stuff that was a little bit too hardcore. And as a matter of fact, so you get these evaluations in the, in the Navy. When I first got in the Navy, they had this old evaluation system where you had 15 things you were getting evaluated on. And everybody, it, it had been, um, in inflation. So the highest grade you could get is a 4.0. So it was inflation of the grades at the time. And so everyone just put 4.0 for everything.

• 1:36:25Jocko Willink?

  Pretty much. And I actually, I have this, I actually saved this evaluation of me, but I got a 3.8, 3.8 in team building. And the guy that gave it to me said, uh, you know, you're just, you're just too hard on people that are unsat.

• 1:36:46Jocko Willink?

  Which I actually, he was one of the guys that I was like, you know, Hard on? Yeah, I was hard on him a couple of times. So, and unsat, I used to use that word all the time. Yeah. Sat or unsat. Yeah. So that was sort of, you know, we were, we were rebelling by being super hardcore, I guess you could say. But then,

• 1:37:07Jocko Willink?

  even though I was rebellious, and again, that's a strong word. I don't know if that's the word we were. I don't know if that's the perfect word, but I did, I loved the SEAL teams, right? So in, in, in working for some of the great guys that I worked for, I realized that if you wanna impact the teams, which I wanna do, cuz I did love the teams, then you gotta try and get into some kinda leadership position, you know? These guys that I respected, that I worked for said, wait, that guy controls this platoon. I wanna do that. He's helping us. He's making this good. So kinda like that old quote that the best form of revenge is success. It's almost like the best form of rebellion is success.

• 1:37:49Jocko Willink?

  And so that's what I kinda went for to a situation. I was trying to find a situation where I could move forward and kinda bring this, hey, I got this now. This is my platoon, you know? So I, I guess that was a little bit of a, it was a little bit simplified. But, but, you know, I don't wanna, again, I don't wanna make it sound like I was some kinda crazy rebel in the SEAL teams. I wasn't. I was, I was in the SEAL teams. I was into doing the right thing and I wanted to do, do my best in the SEAL team. So I guess that's not really being rebellious at all. But I did still have some of that rebel mindset. And one of the things I think is beneficial about having a rebel mindset is you question things.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:38:32Jocko Willink?

  You question things. You're not allowed to, you're, I, I was never afraid to say no, or I don't agree with that. I was never afraid to be contrarian or something. I was never afraid to hold the line and take criticism. So that goes even if, if you're in a group of rebels and you go against them, who's the rebel now? Well, you are. So when guys would be going down a certain path, I wouldn't, I'd be okay holding the line against them because I was okay with being an outsider. I guess that's the word I've been looking for, like an outsider, someone that's not quite just following and, and doing what everyone else is doing. I've always been okay with being an outsider. So maybe it's not necessarily a rebel. But being an outsider and like, okay, those guys are doing it that way?

• 1:39:15Jocko Willink?

  No, I, I don't agree with that. And I'm okay being over here by myself, marching to my own drum, for lack of a better word.

• 1:39:22Speaker 01

  But it's kinda like only if you need to be kinda thing, right?

• 1:39:27Jocko Willink?

  What do you mean?

• 1:39:28Speaker 01

  Like, if everyone's doing the right thing, you're gonna go with that and you're gonna, you know, go hard, you know, the way you do, but yeah, you're not just like this follow the in line, follow in line, you know?

• 1:39:38Jocko Willink?

  And I never, I would say that's something, and so if we categorize that as being rebellious, then yes. I kind of, I would more categorize it with being comfortable with being an outsider.

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:51Jocko Willink?

  Comfortable with my own, uh, decision-making process. So, and not always, I mean, there was times where I did things that other, like, you know, when I was younger, you're not, that's another thing when, um, you know, you hear me talk, I'm forty-four years old, right? I spent my whole adult life in the SEAL teams. I didn't show up in the SEAL teams with like, this incredible leadership capability and ready to write a book. No, man, I learned this stuff. I'm learning, still learning. I'm still learning this stuff. I picked stuff up along the way, so I don't want people to ever think that, you know, I was a superstar. I wasn't, you know, and I'm still not. I'm just, I have an open mind, but now I can look back.

• 1:40:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:35Jocko Willink?

  And I was lucky enough to have some great jobs and some great experiences that opened a lot of, uh, it showed me, I learned a lot. I, I, I had an open mind and the world taught me a lot of stuff.

• 1:40:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:49Jocko Willink?

  And so, uh, yeah, but it wasn't, it wasn't just like, hey, I was, showed up there, but, I would say this, the lead, people that are out there, that are leaders, keep the rebel alive. Keep him alive. Keep him under control.

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:08Jocko Willink?

  And maybe you don't let the rebel talk to other people, right? Maybe, and I've, I've had SEAL buddies that do this where they're, they're rebellious, is, they're as outsider or whatever the word we're using, as I am, but they just can't keep it inside. So they're verbalizing it and they're, and what are they doing? They're making enemies.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:26Jocko Willink?

  They're making, they're, they're antagonizing people. They're doing that. I never did that because I'm playing the game. I'm gonna win the long-term strategic goal. So, don't let the rebel be the one that represents you and talks and opens your mouth, but let him whisper in your ear.

• 1:41:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:45Jocko Willink?

  And listen to him.

• 1:41:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I talked to my wife a lot about the difference. There's a difference between what you think or what you feel or whatever and what, how you behave. So like you can, like if you, I don't know, you get cut off in traffic or something.

• 1:42:05Speaker 01

  No one's gonna be mad at you if you're like mad at that or if that irritates you or whatever. But if you start flipping the guy off or, or violating traffic laws to go chase him or do, you know, start behaving because he cut you, behaving in a certain way, then that, that's wrong. So there's a difference. You can feel like all kinds of stuff. But it, once you start misbehaving, that's when the violations come up. So that's basically what you're saying. Like, don't, don't let him.

• 1:42:29Jocko Willink?

  Control your.

• 1:42:30Speaker 01

  Drive yourself. Yeah, your behavior.

• 1:42:33Jocko Willink?

  Mind control. I think we've talked about that on here before, a little bit, mind control.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  Body control too. Yeah, the, like, just being a rebel, typically that's like, hey, all these rules that everyone's following, I'm gonna, I rebel against those rules. But here's the thing, some of those rules are good rules.

• 1:42:48Jocko Willink?

  Exactly.

• 1:42:49Speaker 01

  So you can't just be a rebel to be a rebel.

• 1:42:51Jocko Willink?

  Blanket statement, I'm a rebel. And that's why, that's why I was kinda pulling back on that word. Cause it makes me sound like a, I was big rebel. I was not. I was, I, I loved being in the teams.

• 1:43:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:43:04Jocko Willink?

  So why would I rebel against it?

• 1:43:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:06Jocko Willink?

  The people I rebelled against were the guys that were not good SEALs. We rebelled against them. Like I told you, we had a mutiny. That was a rebellion. That was a straight rebellion.

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:16Jocko Willink?

  Had a real legit mutiny.

• 1:43:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:18Jocko Willink?

  Went against our commanding, our, our platoon commander.

• 1:43:21Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:43:21Jocko Willink?

  And said, hey, to the commanding officer, said, no, we don't want this guy anymore. That's, that's a rebel. Yeah, we rebelled. But then, but then again, everyone in my platoon was with me. So we all rebelled. So then was I a rebel?

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  I don't know. Yeah. And does that make you a rebel just cause you rebelled that one time? You know?

• 1:43:38Jocko Willink?

  I get, think we're reading into too much semantics, aren't we?

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  I don't know, semantics, kind of part of it.

• 1:43:44Jocko Willink?

  Let's not go there.

• 1:43:45Speaker 01

  Alright, next question. Jocko.

• 1:43:50Speaker 01

  How do you deal with a leader who preaches ownership, but does not practice ownership?

• 1:43:56Jocko Willink?

  Oh dread. The leader who preaches ownership, but does not practice ownership. You know what I do in those situations? I take ownership myself. And I worked for all kinds of bosses that didn't want to take ownership. And you know what I did?

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  Take ownership?

• 1:44:13Jocko Willink?

  I took ownership. You work for a boss that doesn't want to lead, you know what I did? Lead.

• 1:44:21Jocko Willink?

  If, in my mind, if a boss doesn't step up or doesn't take ownership, they're not a problem. They're an opportunity. They're an opportunity. It's an opportunity for me to step up. If you're not, if you're my leader and you're not giving me instruction, you're not stepping up and leading, guess what? I'm gonna run with it. I'm gonna run. I'm gonna take control, I'm gonna take command, I'm gonna make things happen. And you're either gonna, you're either gonna see what I'm doing and say, wow, he's taking ownership, I need to step up. Or

• 1:44:56Jocko Willink?

  if he doesn't have any potential at all, then maybe he looks at it and says,

• 1:45:04Jocko Willink?

  you know what, um, um, maybe I'm not fit for this, or maybe they don't realize it's happening, you'll end up taking their job from them. Because other people will eventually realize. Now, the thing that you have to be careful of is if you say, oh, he's not leading, I'm gonna lead. Then you let your ego start saying, I'm the leader. And then you flaunt it, and now you might make your boss think that you're gunning for their job.

• 1:45:30Jocko Willink?

  And then we can have some issues. Cause now he might shut you down. He might, you know, there's all kinds of things that negative things that can happen there. So when you take ownership, you've got to make sure you're putting your ego in check and make sure that you're taking ownership, but you're still giving them the credit. That's the hardest thing to do, but it works. I'm telling you, I promise you that works. If you take ownership, but then you give them the credit like, hey, sir, you know, I just wanted to go through this thing right here. Here's what I did yesterday. Based on, you know, the guidance that you gave us. The guy didn't give you any guidance, but you just make it up. Just make it up. He's, you know, here we go. And you just do your best to make him look good. Eventually you're going to win. So if you've got someone that's not leading, that's not stepping up, that's not taking ownership, just do it yourself. Do it in a tactful manner.

• 1:46:15Jocko Willink?

  Do it in a non-ego flare up manner. But do it, make it happen. Get after it.

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, the, if you keep that goal, you know how like when you're on a team, right? You have a, some objectives. It's probably just, just a handful of them typically, if not just one.

• 1:46:34Jocko Willink?

  Close with and destroy the enemy. Yep.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, make the say, you know, whatever the goal is, if you keep the goal in mind, then you, as long as you like, really keep it in mind. You, you can avoid all the, cause if you're like, okay, I'm going to step up, just like I was saying, I'm going to step up and lead. And then if your goal shifts from the, the main goal that you guys all have to now my new goal is to be the leader. That's my goal to be the leader, then up comes the ego. Cause the, being the leader, that's what you're focused on. I'm the leader, you're the follower, kind of thing. Keep the goal in mind, you're going to do basically with your ownership, you're going to do your part and then some. If someone's not doing, you know, certain things or whatever, you're going to take the lead. You're going to do your job in it to achieve the goal. Therefore pulling everybody ahead.

• 1:47:21Speaker 01

  So just keep that, keep that goal in mind there.

• 1:47:23Jocko Willink?

  Yes, indeed. Do it for the goal, not for yourself.

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:29Jocko Willink?

  Good. Jocko.

• 1:47:32Speaker 01

  Something I would be very interested in listening to you discuss is the art of disarming people with words.

• 1:47:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and good question, how do we disarm people? And good thing tonight, we talked about maneuver warfare, because we already know that we're not going to attack the strong point, we're going to look for the gaps, we're going to look for the weaknesses, we're going to look for the openings. So what does that mean? That means if we're dealing with someone that has a big ego, we're gonna sidestep that. We might even throw some compliments out there. I might be saying, Echo, you're so good at doing this right here, I could use some help doing that. Now we're getting around his ego, now we can start getting into his head. If the person's over aggressive, maybe you just have to be a little bit more accepting of them, maybe if they're nervous, you've got to just reassure them.

• 1:48:24Jocko Willink?

  They're hostile, just be open minded to what they're saying. So there's a lot of ways that disarm, and like some tactical things that you could literally, like, it says disarm people with words. So what are words that disarm people? I'll give you a couple. That's a good idea. Oh, okay. Or, yeah, that actually makes good, that's good sense right there, that makes sense, right? Disarmed. Or, oh yeah, I like that. Disarmed, right? All three of those little easy phrases, that's a good idea, that makes sense, you know, I like that, those are all things that are going to disarm somebody a little bit. And, once you disarm them, they're gonna, they're gonna open up, they're gonna open up a little bit.

• 1:49:09Jocko Willink?

  So, so like, once you, you're gonna, once you get them disarmed, by just opening your mind, giving them a little compliment, tell them that you like what they're coming with, coming from, and then you start to probe and try to figure out what's going on. And instead of being direct, right, we want to use the indirect method here, so, you know, ask questions. Say, hey, Echo, could you explain to me what the, what we're trying to get done here?

• 1:49:40Jocko Willink?

  That's a lot different than, what are you trying to do here?

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:49:43Jocko Willink?

  That's an attack, almost.

• 1:49:44Speaker 01

  What the hell were you thinking?

• 1:49:45Jocko Willink?

  What the hell were you thinking? Hey, could you explain to me this? Cause I'm not sure I understood it. I didn't really see everything here. Or, hey, I'm having trouble understanding this. Can you, can you help me? Cause I'm not sure, I don't think I get this. So now, when I say that to you, you, in order to explain something, you have to actually open up. You have to say, okay, I'll find, I'll tell you. Well, as soon as you say that, now you're opened up, right? Now you're opened up, and when you open yourself up, when you open yourself up verbally, with an idea to explain an idea, then you're opening yourself up mentally too, because now we're having a discussion. And that's what I'm trying to make happen. So, it's pretty easy, I shouldn't say it's pretty easy. If you think about it, and you just think about

• 1:50:28Jocko Willink?

  those simple phrases that you can use to disarm people of, hey, it's a good idea. I like where you're coming from. Oh yeah, that, that, that actually, that makes good sense, or...

• 1:50:39Jocko Willink?

  That is the way you disarm somebody. Very simple.

• 1:50:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there's little things you can do, even outside, actually, outside, straight up outside of any specific, like, scenario. Where, you know how some people are just more approachable than other people? And then so, some people just, just aren't. So what you can do, and what I've noticed, is people that don't talk negatively about people, and don't come in just talking negative in general. Like, I knew a guy, no, I still know him, but I don't see him anymore hardly, but every time he'd come in, the first thing out of his mouth was something like, I don't know, traffic was bad, it was something bad. You know, he was just complaining about life, and it was just a matter of what particular thing he chose to complain about, but it was always a complaint. Everything.

• 1:51:26Speaker 01

  And, another thing he would do is, let's say someone would say something, oh hey, did you see this, or that, or whatever, this, this was real cool. He'd be like, yeah, but- And then say something bad and kind of dump on it, you know? Yeah, that's true, but you know, that kind of stuff, so don't do that. So that seems kind of easy, but you'd be surprised where.

• 1:51:44Jocko Willink?

  Don't be super negative is your statement.

• 1:51:45Speaker 01

  Don't be, don't be a negative person in general. So right off the bat, you'll be kind of one of those guys that's more approachable. But here's, here's one that's harder. I mean, it's simple, but it's, it's kind of harder to do because I think it comes kind of natural. Simple, not easy is don't talk bad about people. And when people are talking bad about people like to you or around you or whatever, don't like jump in and, and kind of accommodate them. And I'm not saying reject them or even talk bad about them, talking bad about people. Don't, don't do that. Just don't be one of them.

• 1:52:17Jocko Willink?

  Don't be one of those people.

• 1:52:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the, here's the thing, it's. I'm going above and beyond saying. Don't be, you know, certain people, that's all they do is gossip about people. Of course, that's a no brainer. I'm saying never do it. Try to never do it at, at any cost, never do it. If you can, because basically you're trying to establish a rep of being this positive, approachable person. That's what you're trying to do. So even though people don't take specific mental notes like, oh, you're talking bad about this person. You always talk bad about people. They, you feel it. So you ever, you ever been around somebody who tells, tells you secrets every time they see you? Like, hey, I'm not supposed to tell you this, but this. And you're like, dang, this guy's telling me all, you know, all these cool secrets. I like being around him and that's typically why people tell secrets.

• 1:53:02Jocko Willink?

  And I'm never going to tell him any secrets.

• 1:53:04Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. So you know, this guy's talking bad about people or this guy's being negative or whatever. When it comes to you, why, why would I want to trust in this guy or talk to this guy about this? Especially if we're going to do something together, you know?

• 1:53:16Jocko Willink?

  So you're kind of coming at it from the other perspective, not how would you disarm someone? You're just coming at it from how do you be a person that doesn't even need to be disarmed?

• 1:53:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, like just, yeah, exactly. So you're, so, so just so.

• 1:53:29Jocko Willink?

  Oh, oh, I know, know you're actually right. So you're saying if, if I know you as a guy that doesn't talk bad and doesn't tell secrets and doesn't. But then I'm going to automatically be a little bit disarmed.

• 1:53:40Speaker 01

  You're going to start off a little disarmed, exactly.

• 1:53:42Jocko Willink?

  So you've developed a relationship with the person.

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, with everyone, really.

• 1:53:47Jocko Willink?

  Make that your goal. Make that your goal.

• 1:53:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:50Jocko Willink?

  Good. Check.

• 1:53:55Speaker 01

  Jocko.

• 1:53:57Speaker 01

  Have you worked with anyone who led from an emotional or unbalanced place but learned to detach? And what helped them?

• 1:54:08Jocko Willink?

  Well, when I was putting these questions together, obviously, here's one where you also have to use a little disarm movement to get someone that's getting emotional about something. You've got to get them to calm down. You, so you don't reciprocate the emotion. Don't coach people when they're angry or emotional. That's not the time to say, hey, you know what you need to do right now is you need to calm down. No, that doesn't work out. You know, that that does doesn't work. Actually, Leif was telling that story on the last podcast where he was, he was losing his temper about something and I just, you know, stood there and said, kind of smiled and said, I didn't, I didn't reciprocate the anger. I said, hey, take it easy, you know, don't worry about it.

• 1:54:49Jocko Willink?

  Let's just think about it. Can you make this happen? And he's like, yeah, I can, of course. I actually, I had a, uh, one of my, one of my senior enlisted advisors, actually my first deployment to Iraq. And, uh, and he and I were old school, team one guys and, uh, one of my, one of my favorite guys in the world, actually, but he would sometimes get a little bit emotional, little bit, little bit. And he had this tactic that I picked up from him. That I, that I understood the way he, the way he addressed conflict was, and I broke it down for him eventually was simplify, amplify and repeat. That's what he would do.

• 1:55:34Jocko Willink?

  And it actually worked. It worked a lot of time on most people. And so like, for instance, if I said, hey, uh, I'm going to need you. I want to take a couple more guys on this operation. And if he didn't think I needed more guys for an operation, he'd say, well, why don't you just take everyone in the compound? I'll tell you what, just take every person on the roster. We'll give you, that'll give you enough people then. We'll take everyone. I'll, I'll, I'll start rounding everyone up right now. We'll take every single person that we have out there and I'll even grab some army guys on the way. That was his way and, and, and. And I'd be like, no, man, no. And, and but what I wouldn't do is I wouldn't get defensive. I wouldn't get fired up. And I would say, hey, no, I, I'm not saying I need everybody. I'm just saying, I want to take a three more guys.

• 1:56:17Jocko Willink?

  There's some spaces in the vehicles. It'll give us a little more ability to contain the target. And, and we'd look at, I'd say, look, take a look at the map. We can, and so then he'd, he'd calm down. And, and in this guy's case, he actually wasn't like too emotional. He was just super passionate. And when I actually broke down the simplify, amplify and intensify.

• 1:56:40Jocko Willink?

  Oh no, it was simplify, amplify and repeat. That's what you do. Simplify, amplify and repeat. When, and then when, whenever we would start getting into discussion and he would start doing it, we would start laughing because he realized that that's exactly what he was doing.

• 1:56:52Speaker 01

  So the simplify, amplify, repeat, that's, that's what the name you put on his little thing that he did.

• 1:56:56Jocko Willink?

  That was his methodology.

• 1:56:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:58Jocko Willink?

  You know, if you said, like I said, if I said, hey, I need a couple more guys, he'd say, well, we'll just take everyone then. If that's what you need, you need every single guy. You know, he would simplify what you said. He would amplify it and make it more extreme and he would just repeat it over and over again. And, and most people that he did it to, they would feel stupid because of what he did to them. You know, he'd say, well, no, I don't need, I'm not, they would just feel stupid and he'd say, so just, it's ridiculous and, and he'd win.

• 1:57:26Jocko Willink?

  But, uh, we had, we, we would laugh about it, but, but like I said, he wasn't actually too emotional.

• 1:57:36Jocko Willink?

  He was just fired up about stuff, which is a positive thing. But someone that is actually too emotional. So like I said, you gotta stay calm. You don't, don't coach people when they're angry. You set a good example. And then when people calm down later, you talk to them about.

• 1:57:57Jocko Willink?

  Like, hey, man, that wasn't cool. And you gotta, you gotta spin it, right? Cause you're trying to get, you're trying to, you don't wanna like literally coach? Cause if I say echo, I need to coach you on something, then you're defensive and all that. But if I say, hey, man, I, oh, man, I rely on you cause of your expertise and I think you're the only guy in the platoon that can actually make this happen. So if you're losing your temper, man, that doesn't, all of a sudden, I can't count on you and I need you. Cause you don't make good, I mean, we, none of us make good decisions if we're all bent out of shape on something. So I gotta, please, can you just, can you help me by just, hey, man, if you start, if you start getting angry about something,

• 1:58:38Jocko Willink?

  just realize it's gonna affect your decision making and we can't have that, man. We need to come, we need to make the good decisions. People are counting on us. And that's how I'm handling someone that gets emotional about stuff.

• 1:58:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that's what it's some simplify, repeat one. But, but girl.

• 1:58:56Jocko Willink?

  Simplify, amplify and repeat.

• 1:58:58Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna say all girls do this, but some wives might do, like you say.

• 1:59:03Jocko Willink?

  Some wives with the last name Charles?

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  You know, it, ultimately, I think if, you know, and you're, if you're in a good relation, you don't really take it that seriously. But, but yeah, you say like, I don't know, you know, hey, you, you were, you said something mean to me or whatever. And they'll be like, well, then why'd you marry me then? Why, why don't you just, you know, they take it to the, to that next level.

• 1:59:25Jocko Willink?

  Simplify, amplify and repeat.

• 1:59:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, or, or.

• 1:59:28Jocko Willink?

  Watch out for that one.

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  Or hey, go to, this one time, long time ago, we first got together. She's a, she said, she wanted me to get orange juice. I went to, to the store, I was going to the store, wanted me to get orange juice. For whatever reason, I forgot the orange juice. I didn't choose not to get the orange juice. Forgot, just forgot.

• 1:59:45Speaker 01

  You know, you come home, forget the orange juice. She said something along the lines of, does anything I say have any importance to you at all? That's, that's what that is, right?

• 1:59:56Jocko Willink?

  Simplify, amplify.

• 1:59:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:57Jocko Willink?

  And all she needed to do is say it more than once and you got the repeat as well.

• 2:00:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I guess to answer that question, no, yeah, most things are pretty. Pretty important. I mean, maybe not the orange juice. At that moment, you know, I forgot.

• 2:00:13Speaker 01

  Another tactic, like when you talk to people, like to calm them down or whatever, like let's say something, they lose their temper all the time or something like that. And you have to address like them losing their temper and be like, hey, you know how you use the word passionate? Passionate is basically like a, an excuse word for someone being like, you know, when people like, I'm just passionate, I'm passionate.

• 2:00:30Jocko Willink?

  It can be, it can be a euphemism.

• 2:00:33Speaker 01

  Well, here's the thing, being passionate and being emotional are two different things because you can be passionate about something and not lose your temper and not be anymore. They're two different things. So people will be like, they'll put that on and so it sounds kind of acceptable. It's simply not true. But so if you, if the, but you can use that to your advantage. You can be like, hey, I know you're passionate. I dig it, man. It's one of the things I like about you. And another thing that I like about you is that you're also a thinker. That's why, boom, then you say what to do. That's what you do.

• 2:01:02Jocko Willink?

  I go with the ninja mind.

• 2:01:05Speaker 01

  The key line there is that's what I like about you, or what I like about you is this. And then they kind of take on that role, you know?

• 2:01:11Jocko Willink?

  You're disarming them.

• 2:01:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Disarming them. There you go.

• 2:01:16Jocko Willink?

  Very good, very good.

• 2:01:18Speaker 01

  Next question. Daco, what do you think of the saying, you get more bees with honey? They actually asked Leif this too, but he's not here. You get more bees with honey.

• 2:01:36Jocko Willink?

  I always, I always actually heard you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, but it's the same idea. And it, it's something I, I agree with. I mean, obviously this comes down to the R word relationships. And always what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to build the relationship. So I'm gonna put out the honey. You know, I'm gonna put out the honey. The carrot is, is, is preferable to the stick.

• 2:02:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's a good one.

• 2:02:01Jocko Willink?

  Uh, which is another way of saying it, the reward, the good stuff, the, so, so, yeah, totally. That, that absolutely works better. Um, now you can

• 2:02:13Jocko Willink?

  give people too much honey. And now they get type two diabetes. They get lazy, they get out of shape and they don't work anymore, right? So you can't, you gotta, that's, that's the, that's the dichotomy that you need to balance as a leader. Not being too hard, but not being too soft, not being too aggressive, but being aggressive enough.

• 2:02:36Jocko Willink?

  That's the dichotomy, but the bottom line is, you need to treat people well. That's what you need to do. You need to not spoil them, but give them respect and build the relationships. And if you make that your goal, when I work with all these different companies, you know, I'm always saying, listen, make your goal with this person that you're having a problem with, make your goal to build a relationship. That, make that your goal. When they say something negative, say something positive. When they want to blame something on you, say, yeah, you're right, it's my fault. Build a relationship with the person that's going to strengthen the team.

• 2:03:17Jocko Willink?

  It's going to be thousand times infinitely better than having antagonistic relationship with somebody.

• 2:03:25Jocko Willink?

  So, and also, you know, when you're leading with vinegar, when you're leading with fear, and you're leading, you're beating people with a stick, that does not work out good in the long run. Do you have to have consequences sometimes? Yeah. But the team that is following somebody because they want to do their best for that leader, is going to beat the team that is doing things only because they're scared of the leader.

• 2:03:51Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, they, if they're trying to avoid the stick, that's going to be where they operate in. They're going to operate enough to avoid the stick.

• 2:03:59Jocko Willink?

  Exactly.

• 2:04:00Speaker 01

  Because really, that's the goal, to avoid the stick. There's no honey.

• 2:04:02Jocko Willink?

  They're not going to go above and beyond.

• 2:04:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you said something very wise in, uh, Office Space.

• 2:04:07Jocko Willink?

  What does he say in Office Space?

• 2:04:08Speaker 01

  He said, in his little review, he got hypnotized. Did you watch Office Space?

• 2:04:11Jocko Willink?

  I've watched it a million times.

• 2:04:12Speaker 01

  So, so he gets hypnotized, right, so now he tells the truth, or he doesn't care, you know, about things. So he's like, he's real open and honest. He goes into his little review, which is supposed to be this kind of tense thing. And they say, um, like, what's up, you know, some, I don't know, they ask him some stuff. And he's like, it's a, it's a problem of motivation. Like, we're, you know, we're not, if I get, you know, all this, so he's explaining it to him, then he's like, okay, if I'm, if I'm scared of, you know, whatever, this punishment from my boss or whatever, no, I'm just going to work hard enough not to get fired. But that's true though, it's absolutely true. So yeah, like these kids who only get scolded, you know? They don't get like compassion and compliment and support, you know, they only get scolded.

• 2:04:53Speaker 01

  A lot of times, I mean, there's a lot more to it, but a lot of times they're just gonna do the minimum.

• 2:04:58Jocko Willink?

  And clearly if you go too far in the other direction. Where all you get is spoiled.

• 2:05:04Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:05:04Jocko Willink?

  You're too far in the other.

• 2:05:06Speaker 01

  Yep, and the dangerous part about getting giving too, like going too far in the other direction, how you put it? Is you don't prepare them, like they they wind up when they're on their own, like they're not prepared for like like the tough parts. Yeah, there's a lot of good parts in life, man, but those tough parts, they're there too. So if you're not prepared for them, you're gonna get jacked, for lack of a better term.

• 2:05:28Jocko Willink?

  I think that's the correct term, actually.

• 2:05:31Speaker 01

  Alright, uh, last question.

• 2:05:34Speaker 01

  Jocko, great topic for me would be staying committed to life change. I start strong and fade fast into old habits. Please help.

• 2:05:46Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna.

• 2:05:49Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna have to bring in the little Shakespeare on this one.

• 2:05:55Jocko Willink?

  Shakespeare, between the acting of a dreadful thing and the first motion. All the interim is like a phantasma or a hideous dream.

• 2:06:11Jocko Willink?

  And that's Brutus.

• 2:06:15Jocko Willink?

  From Julius Caesar and Brutus in the play is plotting to kill Caesar. Someone he was loyal to.

• 2:06:28Jocko Willink?

  And Shakespeare, the master of understanding human nature. He captures what that feels like.

• 2:06:39Jocko Willink?

  And here's what these lines mean, between the acting of a dreadful thing. So that's the moment. That moment when you're waiting to do something that you don't want to do.

• 2:06:53Jocko Willink?

  And the first motion, so that's when you actually start doing that thing that you don't want to do.

• 2:07:01Jocko Willink?

  All the interim.

• 2:07:04Jocko Willink?

  Now, this is all that time, all that time in that moment. While you are waiting to take action.

• 2:07:13Jocko Willink?

  Is like a phantasma, or a hideous dream.

• 2:07:20Jocko Willink?

  So that moment,

• 2:07:23Jocko Willink?

  that moment, when you're waiting to do something, it's like an apparition. A hideous dream, a nightmare.

• 2:07:33Jocko Willink?

  And so the battle, the struggle,

• 2:07:38Jocko Willink?

  it takes place in that moment.

• 2:07:43Jocko Willink?

  It's not knowing what to do. That's not the battle. It's not actually doing it. That's not the battle. It's the moment in between. It's the hesitation. Hesitation is the enemy.

• 2:08:03Jocko Willink?

  And in war,

• 2:08:07Jocko Willink?

  understanding where the enemy is allows you to defeat him.

• 2:08:13Jocko Willink?

  And this is where the enemy of action, the enemy of commitment, the enemy of change, that's where the enemy lies. It lies in the waiting.

• 2:08:30Jocko Willink?

  And all you have to do to win is overcome that moment, the waiting, the hesitation.

• 2:08:40Jocko Willink?

  All you have to do is go. Move. Take action. Get out of bed, get your feet on the ground, step into the gym, put down the donut, and pick up the kettlebell.

• 2:08:58Jocko Willink?

  Do not hesitate, do not wait, go forward. Go to war.

• 2:09:07Jocko Willink?

  And win.

• 2:09:11Jocko Willink?

  Every single time.

• 2:09:20Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's

• 2:09:23Jocko Willink?

  all I've got for tonight.

• 2:09:27Jocko Willink?

  Thanks to everybody out there for listening and for all the awesome continued support we're getting from everybody. If you want to keep supporting Echo, how'd they do that?

• 2:09:41Speaker 01

  Well, primarily,

• 2:09:45Speaker 01

  I would say support yourself with supplementation. Because really, that's really what it's about. Not necessarily the supplementation, but supporting yourself as well. It's kind of like when you, when you, um, when you fly in the airplane, you know, you gotta put the mask over yourself first before you-

• 2:10:00Jocko Willink?

  You help your infant.

• 2:10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Because if you're not dope, like, you know, you know what I mean? So anyway, if you need supplements, go to onnit.com/jocko, get 10% off onnit supplements. What does that mean? That's the best supplements.

• 2:10:17Jocko Willink?

  I like it.

• 2:10:17Speaker 01

  And you got 10% off. Um, I could explain why they're so good, but you can go on the website, read it, just trust me. It's the only supplements, uh, I take and you too, right?

• 2:10:26Jocko Willink?

  Yes, indeed.

• 2:10:26Speaker 01

  Or you take something else.

• 2:10:28Jocko Willink?

  Flintstone vitamins, something like that.

• 2:10:31Speaker 01

  Or you can support by clicking through, before you do your Amazon shopping, click through the website or just get the Trooper Tool. I think that'd be a lot easier. So you go to the website, get the Trooper Tools, called Jaco Podcast, Trooper Tool Chrome Extension. Click on it.

• 2:10:45Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 2:10:45Speaker 01

  Confirm, boom, it's on there. Anytime you shop at Amazon, you support passively this podcast and you're kind of official. That's dope.

• 2:10:54Jocko Willink?

  I don't like the word passive, even though I know it's the correct term. Because when you are shopping, that's, that's a really good, easy way to support the podcast.

• 2:11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I don't agree with you on the passive.

• 2:11:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know.

• 2:11:08Speaker 01

  I like passive. They're actively shopping, actively getting after it. Passively supporting. I dig it.

• 2:11:16Jocko Willink?

  They actively went to the website, they actively installed the tool, or they click through, they're taking action and they're making things happen.

• 2:11:24Speaker 01

  Yup.

• 2:11:25Jocko Willink?

  I'm giving them credit.

• 2:11:26Speaker 01

  And it's efficient, too.

• 2:11:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm giving them credit.

• 2:11:28Speaker 01

  And efficient. Anyway, nonetheless, that's a way, and um, that's a good way. Uh, subscribe on iTunes, of course, if you haven't already.

• 2:11:37Jocko Willink?

  Write a review.

• 2:11:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:39Jocko Willink?

  Too. Write a review. Somebody wrote an awesome review the other day. That's appreciated, because then we know what we're doing here. We're getting feedback. I'm reading the reviews.

• 2:11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's cool.

• 2:11:49Jocko Willink?

  Echo is reading the reviews.

• 2:11:50Speaker 01

  Subscribe to YouTube. We're gonna, we'll be more, a little bit more active on the YouTube, so it won't be just the video version. I'm gonna get active. I'm gonna do it.

• 2:11:59Jocko Willink?

  Why don't you get a lot more?

• 2:12:00Speaker 01

  Actually, I'm doing it. I'm active. I'm more active now, as of right now. So that's a good, subscribe to YouTube. That one's... How about this? Subscribe to YouTube. If I'm putting out dumb stuff, if I'm mucking it up, like right now, it's just, you know, the video version of the podcast, which is cool. If you like podcasts, why not like the video version? If you even like videos. I'm gonna add some stuff in there, some whatever, some, I'll take deleted scenes. Other stuff, little mashups or whatever. If they're lame, just unsubscribe.

• 2:12:36Jocko Willink?

  You're confident that they will not be lame?

• 2:12:39Speaker 01

  I'm confident, yeah, but that's just my opinion.

• 2:12:41Jocko Willink?

  And I actually thought the first one was, uh, it was pretty darn good.

• 2:12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, yeah, yeah, but...

• 2:12:48Jocko Willink?

  You know what's funny about those things?

• 2:12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:51Jocko Willink?

  It, it, it's a big inside joke. Like, for somebody, that's for, like, no one is, that doesn't, if someone stumbles across that video and watches it, it will mean nothing to them.

• 2:13:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, they'll get way less of it, for sure.

• 2:13:04Jocko Willink?

  Anybody that is in the game with us, they're, they're, they know what's funny.

• 2:13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. They call those Easter, like, there's little Easter eggs in there. Like, you know the Trooper Tool video?

• 2:13:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:13Speaker 01

  There's little Easter eggs in there. If you, you know, if you, if you play back and pay attention or whatever, I like that. Just like the shirts.

• 2:13:18Jocko Willink?

  And everybody caught the details.

• 2:13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. They're sharp, man.

• 2:13:22Jocko Willink?

  Everybody saw that on your Amazon page that you displayed, you had to duck tape.

• 2:13:28Speaker 01

  Actually, if you look closer, it's like, well, yeah, this, this stuff, there's these strags and everything.

• 2:13:32Jocko Willink?

  You just wanna give them away.

• 2:13:34Speaker 01

  Part of the fun, part of the fun.

• 2:13:35Jocko Willink?

  It's you, man.

• 2:13:36Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, yeah, sure, YouTube, you can support that way. And of course, if you like the shirts, get a shirt. We got a kind of a new one, the, the, the trooper one, it just, it's just the basic brand in Choco Podcast. If you're on YouTube right now, I'm wearing one right now.

• 2:13:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You know, Debbie, one of the, one of the troopers. She took a picture the other day, like, wow, just amazing background, mountains, snow cap mountains, trees. Trooper, trooper T-shirt.

• 2:14:10Speaker 01

  Outstanding.

• 2:14:11Jocko Willink?

  That was good.

• 2:14:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, they are, I did make it a point to get the good ones, they're not like, you know, you know, the process of.

• 2:14:19Jocko Willink?

  By good, you mean quality.

• 2:14:20Speaker 01

  Quality, yeah, I didn't just be like, hey, give me the cheapest possible one, the ballpark giveaway, I didn't do that. I was like, get the, you know, I went through some lengths, so they're, so they're good, wearable.

• 2:14:32Jocko Willink?

  Quality.

• 2:14:32Speaker 01

  My goal is to be like, if you put it on, you'd be like, this is my, regardless of what's on it, this is my favorite shirt to wear. That's the goal.

• 2:14:42Jocko Willink?

  And so the design is just a bonus.

• 2:14:47Speaker 01

  I like to think so, yeah.

• 2:14:48Jocko Willink?

  I think that's a good bonus.

• 2:14:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, but yeah, get a shirt, choco store dot com, boom, get a, get a sticker too, if you want, there's a few options there, and a coffee mug. And may or may not have some Jocko white tea pomegranate. Maybe.

• 2:15:07Jocko Willink?

  We have a little something coming out, working with a, working with a company, a lot of people would talk to me about the beverage that I drink. Yeah, I drink some Alpha Brain, but my most common beverage is the pomegranate.

• 2:15:21Speaker 01

  Yep, and that, and you can find that on Tim Ferriss, right?

• 2:15:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that was the first, people went crazy.

• 2:15:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz he was asking, hey, what is that, what is that, what is it?

• 2:15:28Jocko Willink?

  And he drank it, and when he drank it, he got all fired up, listen, listen to the Tim Ferriss podcast, he's like, oh, this is like an adrenaline fuel.

• 2:15:36Speaker 01

  There's caffeine in that one?

• 2:15:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's, there's a small amount of caffeine, uh, well, I shouldn't say small, usually, usually white tea's about a third of a cup of coffee. So it's pretty mild on the caffeine, it's like a micro dose of caffeine, there's some antioxidants in there, and it tastes good.

• 2:15:54Jocko Willink?

  And so anyways, I got approached about, hey, we are, we are fans of the Jocko podcast and guess what? We make tea.

• 2:16:03Speaker 01

  Boom.

• 2:16:03Jocko Willink?

  We want to make your tea. So I went through some iterations, trying to find it and tune it.

• 2:16:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:09Jocko Willink?

  The little, the mixture.

• 2:16:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:13Jocko Willink?

  And now we got a little something. Jocko white tea.

• 2:16:15Speaker 01

  That's gonna be good.

• 2:16:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, uh, so we'll, we'll put it on the Jocko store, some kind of connection to get it.

• 2:16:23Speaker 01

  Yep. But man, this is.

• 2:16:24Jocko Willink?

  I don't know when that'll be out, but it'll be out sometime soon.

• 2:16:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:28Jocko Willink?

  And you put that thing on there where people can have, get emails from us.

• 2:16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. So the, the mailing list, right?

• 2:16:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:39Speaker 01

  Put simply, it's a mailing list. It's the ins, it's more for like, like insiders, you care about like,

• 2:16:45Speaker 01

  I don't know, insider stuff. So I don't, you know how like, there's a lot of mailing lists or whatever you can get on and they'll like, send you a mail, email every, make it a point not to send you stuff that's like not relevant. Cause you, sometimes.

• 2:16:57Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:16:58Speaker 01

  I've signed up for that before.

• 2:16:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, don't fill people's mailbox with stuff that is stuff.

• 2:17:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like, it's like, hey, here's my email, violate my trust. No, man, no. I'll send you me, yeah, I'll, I'll, when I, when.

• 2:17:13Jocko Willink?

  If there's something important.

• 2:17:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And not the kind of like, hey, one out of all these people, one of these people might be interested in this. Let me send it to everybody. It's not that kind.

• 2:17:22Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:17:22Speaker 01

  Is if I think everyone's me interested, I could be wrong, but if I think that genuinely, then I'll send you something.

• 2:17:29Jocko Willink?

  And furthermore, if there is a pandemic epic disaster situation, I will be sending forth instructions for all troopers to congregate and dominate. And that's what we're gonna do in the event of the zombie apocalypse.

• 2:17:46Speaker 01

  See, that alone right there is the reason.

• 2:17:49Jocko Willink?

  And at some point, see now, at some point, I may send out like a longer thing, like for instance, upcoming.

• 2:17:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:17:59Jocko Willink?

  We got the muster.

• 2:18:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:18:00Jocko Willink?

  That Leif and I are doing here in San Diego, gotta get out some details on that. So people know when it's going down, all that stuff. I'm gonna send that out to there so that people know what's happening, they get connected. So that's, that's an example.

• 2:18:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:14Jocko Willink?

  Am I gonna email it 47 times? No.

• 2:18:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:18Jocko Willink?

  Hey, reminder. But I know if you're enlisted on the. On the mail, then you're interested in what we're saying.

• 2:18:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:27Jocko Willink?

  So I think that's why we're putting it out there.

• 2:18:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we're not gonna violate that.

• 2:18:31Jocko Willink?

  Here's my email, violate my trust.

• 2:18:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know how they'll, cause they'll send you stuff, bro. Every like three days.

• 2:18:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 2:18:39Speaker 01

  If you let them.

• 2:18:40Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes multiple times a day.

• 2:18:41Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:18:43Jocko Willink?

  Who does that? Why would you, why is that considered to be good marketing?

• 2:18:46Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 2:18:47Jocko Willink?

  Is that considered to be good marketing? Somebody must be telling people to do that.

• 2:18:51Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 2:18:52Jocko Willink?

  You know what? That's, that's, that's what I don't wanna do.

• 2:18:57Jocko Willink?

  Is market things.

• 2:18:58Speaker 01

  Bro, yeah.

• 2:18:59Jocko Willink?

  Okay?

• 2:19:00Speaker 01

  That's the thing.

• 2:19:01Jocko Willink?

  If anybody out there thinks I'm marketing things, stop me. Do it.

• 2:19:06Speaker 01

  Well, I did learn recently, there's a difference between advertising and marketing. So, marketing is everything. Like, if, if even you wearing that shirt, that's technically marketing. Advertising.

• 2:19:17Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well.

• 2:19:18Speaker 01

  On the other hand.

• 2:19:19Jocko Willink?

  Alright, busted.

• 2:19:21Speaker 01

  I don't wanna get into a big thing here. Bro, I was talking to my-

• 2:19:23Jocko Willink?

  Well, I guess, well, then we market and we advertise for-

• 2:19:26Speaker 01

  No, we market, we don't advertise.

• 2:19:29Jocko Willink?

  We don't?

• 2:19:31Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:19:31Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:19:32Speaker 01

  Ad- advertising like ads.

• 2:19:33Jocko Willink?

  What about when you say, "Hey, Onnit has good stuff." And I say, "Yeah, get the curl oil."

• 2:19:38Speaker 01

  That's Onnit advertising, technically.

• 2:19:41Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I'm, I'm-

• 2:19:43Speaker 01

  We're in the advertising.

• 2:19:44Jocko Willink?

  Well, what I don't wanna do is beat people down with, you know, buy this, buy that. I don't wanna do that.

• 2:19:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:51Jocko Willink?

  Onnit is actually supporting the podcast, and I support Onnit. That's Joe Rogan's company. And Joe Rogan's a great guy who helped us out. Who, why, by the way, we're sitting here because of Joe Rogan. FYI. Alright. The other way, hey, also, you got the, um, you can buy a little book called Extreme Ownership. Written by myself and my brother Leif Babin, who was on the last podcast, Podcast 34. He was also on Podcast 11. And we wrote a book. It's about leadership. It's about war, it's about business, it's about life. And it's available in hardcover and digital audio format, both. Leif and I, we read the sections that we wrote, so that's cool. And you know what's cool? Is get it for yourself, which is cool.

• 2:20:37Jocko Willink?

  It'll help you, but then help your team. Grab them. And you're helping us, you know, a little bit.

• 2:20:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's for support. The thing good about that book, I said this before, but it's, it's worth saying again, is that you know how like some books is like, okay, I'm gonna, you know, improve in, in, whatever, I'm gonna read this book, it's gonna help me in this way or that way, whatever. But this is like the kind of stuff where you can literally turn on that like right when you read a certain sentence and it's giving you whatever, you know, whatever this advice is, whichever one it is, but the extreme ownership will say. You can turn it on right then and there, like right then and there, you can walk away, you don't have to read the whole book technically. And it'll, you'll already be changed.

• 2:21:16Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome.

• 2:21:16Speaker 01

  You just gotta do it. I'm saying like, not all books are like that. It's like, oh yeah, it's this gradual process.

• 2:21:22Jocko Willink?

  That is awesome.

• 2:21:23Speaker 01

  But anyway, that's, that's a big takeaway I got from it.

• 2:21:25Jocko Willink?

  Now, as always, if you wanna let us know what's going on in your world, you wanna continue this little talk that we're having amongst us, we're all up in the webs. Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Echo is at Echo Charles. And I am at Jocko Willink. Now, one of the things that I made a note here to talk about, little bit, gotta, gotta come clean here, gotta address something.

• 2:21:55Jocko Willink?

  Went on a little trip into the bush, was out of contact. Before I left on the trip,

• 2:22:05Jocko Willink?

  I stopped. I didn't stop, but I could no longer keep up. Could no longer keep up with responding. There was a time, up until a week ago, maybe, maybe a week and a half ago, I committed and responded to every single person that hit me on Twitter, a hundred percent. And I kept trying to maintain. And I told everyone I'm gonna maintain. And I, and I maintained for a long time, for what, six months, seven months, something like that? But I, I cannot maintain anymore. I cannot respond to every single person.

• 2:22:48Jocko Willink?

  And especially coming back from. From being in the field for, you know, seven days where I didn't have it. Or have it very sparingly. I'm getting thousands of tweets a day, which is awesome. And you know what? I do read them all. I absolutely read them all. But to respond to every single one of them, I don't, I don't have time. Starting about a week and a half ago, I just said, nah, I can't do this. Because first of all, we went to the whole thing of like, oh, we're gonna go two times a week for the podcast, or one time, two times a month for the podcast, maybe one every two weeks. Most people didn't like that. I didn't like that. I want to come in here and get it on. So, but, well, and, and I used to be able to respond to the Twitter in like forty-five minutes a day,

• 2:23:33Jocko Willink?

  which I can find that time, I'll make that time. Then it was an hour, then it was an hour and ten minutes, and all of a sudden it became two hours a day. And then if, think about this, if I missed a day for whatever reason, or missed a day and a half, five hours. Finally, one Sunday, I sat down and I did Twitter for a stupid amount of time. You know, six something hours. And Twitter's a great method of communication. But I gotta be more selective and disciplined about my time management.

• 2:24:09Speaker 01

  I don't want to carry this on even further, but the reason I'm kinda like, kinda laughing is that, because you're kinda new to social media.

• 2:24:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, kinda.

• 2:24:20Speaker 01

  But it's funny, because like you're, this is gonna sound strange, but you're that like, nice of a person, that you're like, telling everyone, like, we know. We know you can't find everybody, but you're like, really bothered by, you're like, guys, I can't, I'm not rude, I'm not being rude. That's what's funny.

• 2:24:39Jocko Willink?

  I feel bad.

• 2:24:39Speaker 01

  That's what's funny, because from your perspective, it's like, it's like someone's talking to you for real, and you're just like, basically putting your finger up, saying, I don't, you know, I don't have time for you. You know, but.

• 2:24:50Jocko Willink?

  We are kind of, we are kind of a group, a team.

• 2:24:53Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 2:24:54Jocko Willink?

  Of which.

• 2:24:54Speaker 01

  Which makes it even, yeah.

• 2:24:55Jocko Willink?

  Of which I'm sort of like, the guy that facilitates the communication between us, from a, almost a leadership position. And so for now, people, and you know what was funny? Because, uh, one of, one of the troopers, guy named Brandon, who's been in the game since day one, I forget how he. I think, yeah, I think he listened to Tim Ferriss podcast and he immediately like followed me on Twitter. And we were going back and forth on a bunch of stuff and, and finally we were emailing about some stuff. We were emailing about, uh, he was, he was trying to get Timex to sponsor the podcast or me or something. Cause Timex is selling watches factually, factually. A lot of people have bought Timex Iron Man watches.

• 2:25:38Speaker 01

  Well, from, from your thing.

• 2:25:40Jocko Willink?

  Just from, from, from wanting to get in the game, you know, like, oh yeah, that's cool, man. Let's do it. You know, and so a lot of people have factually bought those watches. And so Brandon Trooper was like, hey, you know what? I'm going to contact these guys. So we went back on a bunch of emails. I have pictures of me with this watch on, with this Timex watch that you see on my Twitter feed. Not the exact same watch, but the same model watch, the same model. And I have, I think five of them right now. And actually some troopers sent me other older, because you can't buy them anymore. So I have, I have enough of these watches to last me for the rest of my life of these, you know, I think it's about five or six.

• 2:26:23Jocko Willink?

  And, and I've actually done surgery on these watches over the years.

• 2:26:26Speaker 01

  Like fixed them?

• 2:26:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like one would break a certain part. So I'd take another one apart and I'd put the insides, you know, so one day I was reading an email from Brandon, because we emailed back and forth on this a couple of times. And then the other day he emailed me, just said, hey, just so you know, I haven't given up. I'm still on Timex. And I sent him an email and I was reading it on the way here to record. And, uh, and I was, I was looking through the email when I parked, I saw his phone number at the bottom. And I just hit, you know, it's iPhone. I hit it. I hit the thing and it called. And, uh, and I said, and he's like, hey, this is Brandon. And I said, hey, what's up, man? It's Jocko. And he's like, really? Yeah, man. What's going on? I just wanted to touch base and he's, and, and so I said, so we started talking.

• 2:27:11Jocko Willink?

  And this was right as the social media, I was reaching the, kind of the end of the line of social media. And as I'm sort of thinking about how I'm gonna manage and how I'm gonna, like, if I could tell people like, listen, I'm sorry, I just can't, I physically can't do it.

• 2:27:31Jocko Willink?

  And one of the things he says to me while we're talking, he goes, you know what's so awesome is that you respond to everybody. And I was like, no. So I s- I stuck with it. I said, okay, you know what? I'm behind. I'm gonna sit down. And I think that's when I did like a Sunday where I just sat there like an idiot.

• 2:27:47Speaker 01

  You're not an idiot.

• 2:27:48Jocko Willink?

  I know, but it just boom, boom, boom, boom.

• 2:27:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27:50Jocko Willink?

  And the thing is too is a lot of people are telling me good stuff and I'm like, wanna say, hey, man, thanks. That's a good point. Oh, that's a good book. I'm gonna check that out. So when he told me that, I said, okay, I gotta hold the line. I gotta hold the line. And then, and then I realized if I'm gonna hold the line on that, I'm gonna let go of more important things. One of them being the podcast. Yeah. One of them being the podcast and not putting forth quality podcast, which to me is the most important thing that, that, that I'm doing right now is, is getting the podcast quality from a podcast perspective, right? Um, so yeah, there's my, uh, there's my social media adventures.

• 2:28:24Speaker 01

  I know. Yeah, but it's funny to think of it from your perspective because I would argue, I would guess that from everyone else's perspective, it's like, yeah, no, no kidding.

• 2:28:34Jocko Willink?

  Kidding, idiot.

• 2:28:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're freaking. But nah, man, good on you, really. You're the, yeah, I think that's, that's cool.

• 2:28:41Jocko Willink?

  Well, I apologize, everybody, but, uh, and I'll, I'm still, I'm telling you, I'm still like reading them. But it's, I can't respond to everything.

• 2:28:51Speaker 01

  God, you're the man.

• 2:28:52Jocko Willink?

  But what I'm gonna try and do, since I don't have to be sweating, the, the more responses if I tweet, I'm gonna try and like to be a little bit more active as things happen, cool things happen, whatever.

• 2:29:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:29:04Jocko Willink?

  We'll see how that works out. Uh, all right.

• 2:29:09Jocko Willink?

  To close it out, thanks always. And once again, to the uniform folks out there, the firefighters, police and law enforcement, and of course, military members. Thanks to you all for holding the line. And to the other troopers that are out there that are listening, who have opened your ears and opened your mind.

• 2:29:39Jocko Willink?

  You.

• 2:29:42Jocko Willink?

  You who are looking at yourself every day like we do, thinking, how can I be better?

• 2:29:54Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for doing that.

• 2:29:57Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for making that daily self-assessment.

• 2:30:03Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for moving forward without hesitation.

• 2:30:09Jocko Willink?

  And most important,

• 2:30:13Jocko Willink?

  thanks for getting after it.

• 2:30:17Jocko Willink?

  So, until next time, this is Echo and Jocko out.