The Hidden Cost of Winning Too Much | Mikaela Shiffrin

Mikaela Shiffrin was throwing up before almost every race, drowning in performance anxiety no one could see. The world's winningest alpine skier reveals why thinking about winning made her lose, how her mom taught her to master the mental game, and why she didn't want to break the all-time wins record. She won a race by three seconds after an injury and the world called her slow for only winning the next one by seven tenths. Shiffrin opens up about the choking sensation that triggered her gag reflex, the sports psychologists who helped her reframe fear, and why she hopes people debate the greatest of all time forever. This is about the gap between external success and internal struggle and what it takes to stay human under superhuman pressure. Mikaela on YouTubeMikaela on InstagramIn this episode you will:Recognize why refusing a title can be more powerful than claiming itDiscover why focusing on outcomes sabotages performanceLearn how to transform crippling anxiety into competitive fuelUnderstand the difference between pressure you create and pressure others imposeMaster the art of staying present when the stakes are highestFor more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1889For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Lindsey VonnShaun WhiteAllyson Felix Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:27Lewis Howes?

  What is the Olympics like? Was that the dream for you growing up?

• 0:30Speaker 02

  No, I'm well, there was a part of my dream. I did like, I had a little notebook when I was younger that was like, I want to, I'm going to be Olympic champion. I think it was that something was like, I'm going to be the youngest Olympic gold medalist in history. And that actually did happen, but.

• 0:48Lewis Howes?

  15, 15, 16, how old were you?

• 0:50Speaker 02

  I was, I was 18.

• 0:52Lewis Howes?

  18.

• 0:52Speaker 02

  18. I was the youngest fallen gold medalist.

• 0:55Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 0:55Speaker 02

  So there's an asterisk on that, but that was one thing I wrote like in a journal, but really mostly my goals had nothing to do with the Olympics. Like my goal was always, I want to be the best skier in the world. I always looked up to Bodie Miller.

• 1:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:08Speaker 02

  As my big idol and he was like, at the time, you know, he won the overall globe. He was winning individual races. He was like, and he was inspiring people. And one of my favorite movies of all time was his documentary Flying Downhill, which is like, I don't even know, I don't know if you can buy it somewhere now. Like I don't, I would literally want to go back and watch it again, but I'm not really sure where to find it because I had it on a DVD and I don't like have a way to play it anymore. But that was like my most inspiring, he really inspired me to truly be, want to be a ski racer.

• 1:42Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:42Speaker 02

  He's like the reason I identified myself at eight years old as a ski racer and I just.

• 1:48Lewis Howes?

  Did you watch him on TV or in the Olympics? Or where did you see him?

• 1:51Speaker 02

  I watched him on TV. I watched him on, we had, we would get these DVDs every year. It's called like World Cup winning runs and it's, you know, it's produced by US Ski and Snowboard and it's like the, the crazy ski fanatics, like whatever, like your how to videos and things like that. But it was just a compilation of all the season's best winning runs. And my parents used to get those DVDs and I would watch them and it was like all Bodie's runs and it's just amazing. And then, you know, during the Olympics as well and.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  But it wasn't, I think maybe what helped me sort of steer away from having the big, big Olympic dream was actually seeing some of what he experienced through the Olympics. What was that? He had great, great successes. He got the medals and everything. And, and he also had like the terrible Olympics that like, I wish I could, I wish I could have gotten into his mind and known what was going on for him at the time. If it was about pressure, if it was about this or that, or if he just didn't really care because he was the kind of athlete who's like, I don't care about the one medal. I like, I want to experience whatever it is that feels fulfilling in that moment. And it might not be winning the Olympic medal.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  It might be like just experiencing the Olympic like scene in a different way. And people always have an opinion and judge it and get right into it. And I saw that as a child, as a child, and it was like, I don't want to ever have to deal with something like that. Like do your thing. Why do people have to have an opinion about it? Right. And the opinion itself is like adds pressure and that makes it harder. I feel like that sort of watching him go through the, the successes he had and the challenges that he faced gave me some insight into like my own philosophy and what I find

• 3:52Speaker 02

  important in skiing, which is it's literally just about like, it's, it's kind of so boring, but it's just about the turn and making really good turns. Interesting. So it's like, when you talk about the process and stuff, and I know that gets, I feel like in sports, people really, really want to hear about like your goals that you want to be the greatest of all time, like the Michael Jordan story, like the, I know you're going to be NBA champion, like you're going to do this, you're going to be the greatest and all of the hype and the pressures built up. And then he does it and it's like greater than, and I've always been like, I don't think I'm going to do any of this. I really just want to be a very good skier and ski well and ski fast.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  And maybe someday I can kind of be the best in the world. And if I can do that, maybe I'll hold on to it. And now it's been like 12 years of racing World Cup where I've been more or less at the top level. And it's still like, I'm still in disbelief, but I still, I always still go back to. The days watching like my greatest idols like Bodie Miller and Yannick Zekoslitsch and Anya Perisic and all of these, these athletes that I looked up to. And

• 5:04Speaker 02

  I don't know, I just like you see the struggle that they have and you see it from an outsider's perspective. And then now having gone through a lot of that and seeing it from the insider's perspective, we all feel it and experience it differently, but

• 5:18Lewis Howes?

  Feel what? The pressure?

• 5:19Speaker 02

  The pressure or the failure or the success, whatever it is like.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  Everybody's inspired by something different. So some athletes, there are some athletes out there who literally can win races just because they want to be, they just want to win it. Like just thinking, I want to win this race gives them the right mindset and the right intensity that they just, they do, they win it. And when I think I want to win, I never win.

• 5:48Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Never ever. If I'm thinking about

• 5:51Lewis Howes?

  You rarely lose.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. If I'm thinking about winning, I will not win the race.

• 5:54Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  It's happened. It's almost like 100% of the time.

• 5:56Lewis Howes?

  So what do you need to think about?

• 5:58Speaker 02

  I have to think about like the intensity of my skiing or like I have to think about racing the course versus winning. It always has to be like what's happening between the start and the finish line, not what's going to happen after the finish.

• 6:11Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  And that's, I don't know, it's kind of, it's a little bit, I feel like it's a little bit corny, but it's so, it's like

• 6:20Lewis Howes?

  You gotta focus on

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Without fail.

• 6:22Lewis Howes?

  You gotta focus on the next turn.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, the next turn. Like the process of getting to the finish that what is what allows you to win the race. And I, that's, that's where my mindset has to be.

• 6:32Lewis Howes?

  What do you struggle with managing more? Overcoming failure or having all the success?

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, I feel like it's been, I've gone through phases. I mean, I'm only 28, but I have gone like I could sum my career up so far in different phases. In the beginning, it was

• 6:56Speaker 02

  It was almost like there wasn't pressure. I didn't really have, I had success pretty early, but it was always like, this is so surreal. I wonder if it's even real. It might be a dream.

• 7:07Lewis Howes?

  Because you're the young one on the circuit.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm young and people keep expecting it to not happen. I kept exceeding expectations and my expectations were so high. I didn't care about anybody else's and, and then, you know, that's like the first three to four years of my career. And then I started to, like, then I had my first season where I sort of, I did struggle and I struggled a little bit more, um, like finding, the fine tuning of my ski equipment and different things and my first struggles with my coach at that time. And I like when things weren't really clicking. I was, I might be the luckiest skier of all time that I got, that things clicked for me earlier than they do for most other athletes. I feel like that's really important is you have to, you have to click with the equipment you have. You have to click with the coaches

• 7:53Speaker 02

  you have. People have to be on the same page and the same mindset and the same goals. And for the first three, four years of my career, I had that. I almost, like, I almost didn't have to try. Grant, like, part of that was because my mom traveled with me as one of my coaches as well. And she, like, she fought battles for me. She helped to make it click, but, um, and she still does. But that, like, there are so many of these different variables that have to go into place, fall into place, or I don't know, be forced into place. That goes beyond just making good turns. And then when that came down to my job, which was literally just making good turns, I could do it. And so then I started having success early on.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  And it was just like, people were like, this is not real. This can't keep happening. And then it did. And then it was like, everybody caught up. And the, the media and public and just everybody watching caught up to, it was, it was a season I had, I actually got injured, but, um, I was out, it was June 15. Um.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  Two thousand, the 2014, 2015, yeah, 2014, 2015 season. And I got injured like December 2014. And then I came back February 2015. So I was like out for a good chunk of the season, but I had an MCL strain and a tibial plateau fracture. Um, and then a bone bruise, which was probably the thing that like ends up holding everybody back the longest. There's surprisingly little research on bone bruising, but anyway, that's a totally different topic. Um, so when I came back to skiing, I kind of focused more on just slalom. But that season was insane because I, I started out the season in October.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  And the first two races of the season were these two slaloms, um, in Aspen. And I, I won, I, that was, I reset the record for the great, the largest margin of victory in a World Cup.

• 9:58Lewis Howes?

  How many seconds?

• 9:58Speaker 02

  It was three, over three seconds, which is like, I mean, we, we've win races, lose races by literally one hundredth of a second. And that's typical time differences.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  Two tenths, three tenths is big, five tenths is like insurmountable. And then if you're getting over that, like people dream of winning a race by maybe a second. And I won this race by three seconds. I was like, I don't really, I don't know what just happened.

• 10:29Lewis Howes?

  After an injury?

• 10:30Speaker 02

  That was before the injury. So then it was the next race series that we went to where I got injured. And then when I came back, um, in February,

• 10:43Speaker 02

  I kind of focused on just the solemn races for the rest of the season. I did some giant solemn races, but it was just like mostly focused on solemn. And I think my average.

• 10:58Speaker 02

  It was like my average time margin of victory for the whole season was over two seconds. So every, pretty much every single race besides one, I, I won by over two seconds.

• 11:09Lewis Howes?

  That's crazy.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  And then the one race was my comeback race. It was five tenths or something. And that, that season is like the worst thing that happened to me because it set everyone's expectations that I was now going to win every race by over two seconds for the rest of my career. So I came back the next season or, you know, when, finished the season, you have your summer period training, blah, blah, blah. First race of the season was in Fin- Finland for 2015, 16, and I won it by seven tenths, six tenths of a second.

• 11:42Lewis Howes?

  She's slowing down.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yes. So everyone was like, are you worried the competition's getting so much better? Are you getting worse? And it was this whole, it was a weird, weird thing where I'd never, I'd never experienced a victory where people put such a negative spin on it. And that was, that like then set me into the next phase of my career, which was a lot of like

• 12:08Speaker 02

  performance anxiety.

• 12:09Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 12:10Speaker 02

  And it all surrounded around like what media would say, what people around me would say. And not the closest people, but even then, like even those closest to me would be like, oh, it'd be so great if you could just like stomp on this race. Like if you could win it by a second too. So like, we want to get back there. And, and I get it. I just was like, I don't.

• 12:36Lewis Howes?

  You're doing the best you can do.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  I'm doing the best I can. I don't think we're there. Like, I actually think the competition is much stronger. And

• 12:47Speaker 02

  what like that happened, that was a moment in time or a season in time. And I don't think we're going to be in a place where I win races by two seconds anymore. And, but that expectation that then lasted, it's like a four, it's like a four to five year delay. Like took people four to five years to catch up to the expectations I set in the beginning of my career. And then it took them four to five years to figure out that that might not be the, what's going to happen all the time. It's just, it was just weird. So there's this phase where I was puking at the start of every.

• 13:19Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Oh, terrible.

• 13:22Lewis Howes?

  Every race.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Almost every race.

• 13:26Lewis Howes?

  Just because of anxiety.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Because of anxiety.

• 13:28Lewis Howes?

  Was it more worried about what the people closest to you were to say, what the media were gonna say?

• 13:32Speaker 02

  It was media. It was like fear of, fear of losing, more just fear of what disappointment comes when you don't exceed the expectations. I'd been really used to kind of exceeding people's expectations and then, and then it was like, I'm still winning, but just winning alone isn't good enough anymore. I actually have to win by more. And if I'm gonna exceed people's expectations, now I need to make winning by two seconds, three seconds a regular thing.

• 14:03Lewis Howes?

  That's a lot of pressure.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  I mean, it is and it isn't. It's sort of, it's so much that it's like, it's not realistic. And I knew it at the time, but I didn't know how to explain that. And it just, like, it's taken me a long time to get the point, to this point now where I just realized that people will catch up. And I also realized, like, during that period of time, you know, after every race, we go through the mix zone and there's, go through all the media. And I felt like the media was directing questions in a very negative way. If I didn't win by a certain amount, or if I had a really, like, strong reaction one race, they were like, why is this one so much more important to you? And, and those are all fair questions.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  My mind would go there if I was them as well. But I would really answer, I would take their questions so literally and answer to that. And now I realize, people still do that. They kind of try to get into your mind and they say, they ask a question, but it's insinuates that you feel a certain way, instead of just asking how you feel, or sometimes...

• 15:13Speaker 02

  And there's nothing wrong with it. Honestly, it's just like if you ask the same question over and over, and you want to word it a different way. And sometimes, sometimes a reporter might ask like, you know, is it really disappointing that you came in second this race? This was, this was this season when it was the 85th, the, okay, so there were two slalom races in a row in the Czech Republic. And I won the first one. That was my 85th victory. And then the second day, everybody was thinking this is going to be your 86th. And it for like, for everyone around me, it was a done deal. And I was not there. And

• 15:54Lewis Howes?

  Mentally, emotionally.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Mentally, emotionally. I was just, I was tired. It was a really, really long stretch of races. I raced seven days, seven races in 10 days and with travel, like literally across Europe.

• 16:07Lewis Howes?

  It's just as much emotionally draining as it is physically.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:10Lewis Howes?

  Because you have to mentally and emotionally prepare.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:13Lewis Howes?

  For hours before every race.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Racing is probably more mentally and emotionally draining. Physically, you're prepared for really whatever it can get.

• 16:20Lewis Howes?

  You've been training so hard.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then they all just get intertwined. And then you're like, why don't my muscles work anymore? I just, and sometimes all I need is just one day, one recovery day. And then I'm literally back to it. But I just.

• 16:32Lewis Howes?

  Back to back was tough.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. The bat, those back to back races. This was, this was the last race series before world championships this season. And I was like, on a low, just drained. But, but I was having a good time. I loved racing. I, I won the first run of the second race. And I was, so I was, went last on the second run. I was in the lead the whole way down. And I lost the lead in the last part of the course. And I, I lost the race by seven hundredths of a second, or something like that, to one of, Lena Dura, competitor who was an amazing human. Like she dessert, she skied so well. She's. She's been, it's, she was on the podium for like some of my very, very first podiums of my career.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  And she struggled and then had injuries. She's come back. Like, she deserved it. And I didn't have any questions about that. But for sure, people were thinking, this could have been 86. Like, this would have been the record matching performance. And you could have done it here at the scene of your very first World Cup race when you were 15 years old. Like, it would have been fateful. The whole thing. It was all of this, the puzzle piece. It was all fitting together.

• 17:47Lewis Howes?

  A pressure, yeah.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  And then it didn't happen.

• 17:48Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  And I, I was like, if people were asking this, I was like, I am so excited for Lena. I mean, I get it. It's not 86. Okay. What did, like, whatever. But I'm so happy for her. And I'm so excited about my race yesterday. And I'm actually really happy about how I skied most of it today. And I'm looking forward to work. Like, I started to use this, this kind of positive reframing of the questions about how I really felt. And the, it was like wild how the, the mood around me shifted from being like, walking on eggshells. Is she disappointed? What's gonna happen? You know, is she gonna cry? Is she gonna throw a fit? I'm like, um, I'm good.

• 18:33Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  And everybody was like, oh, okay. We can celebrate the second place too. That's cool. And I, I just realized how much more control I have than I ever knew before of like the closest people around me and their moods. I can help them. Like, I can help them feel okay. If, if I don't win a race, they feel like it's their fault because they didn't do the work they did to prepare me. But sometimes it's not on them. Sometimes it's just, like, the factors don't come together in the right way and the other athletes skied better. And like, it took a long time for me to realize that it wasn't, it's not just me disappointing them. It's also they're afraid of disappointing me.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  And it goes, the, like, the coaches want to do their best. They want to see me win because they care. Some people want to see me lose because they're sick of seeing me win. And that's like, there's this whole dynamic, this whole like culture in there. And you have to really, you have to kind of figure out. How to separate those things, I guess.

• 19:36Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Speaking of coaching, where would you be without great coaching in your career and in your life?

• 19:43Speaker 02

  Nowhere. I'm not, yeah. No, my whole life is like,

• 19:48Speaker 02

  I've been really lucky with my coaches. Starting off with my parents, my first coaches in my life, they both taught me how to ski. And like I said, my mom, she's been my coach since I was, since I learned how to ski, but she traveled with me my first year in the World Cup. She still travels with me now. And she is like, people have a bit of a

• 20:11Speaker 02

  misunderstanding because they, it's like a frustrating thing for her and for me. People will go up to her and be like, when are you going to stop following Michaela around? Like, what do you do all day when she's skiing? Like, she's on the hill. She's setting, she's helping set the courses. She sets some of the courses herself. She videos, she's like pulling fence, setting fence. She does, she's literally, she's a ski coach. She's just employed by me, not the US Ski Team.

• 20:37Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 20:38Speaker 02

  So people like have a hard time wrapping their heads around it. And some of her friends even will be like, come on, like, come hang out with me more. Michaela's fine. And they don't realize how much of an impact she has on my career. And like my mental stability and just being able to exist in Europe for six or seven months at a time without being home, without being,

• 21:01Speaker 02

  like, I'm fairly familiar with most of Europe, we are up now, but you're still not home.

• 21:05Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 21:06Speaker 02

  You know?

• 21:06Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  And that's something like trying to like inception people's minds. They get it, so they stop asking her those questions because she's like, ah, there's nothing like everyone around you making you feel like you're completely inconsequential and someone is like in your daughter's career. And who is she to say that she's like important, but I'm the one who says it. And it's like, oh.

• 21:31Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  Anyway, so.

• 21:32Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  So she's a very important coach.

• 21:35Lewis Howes?

  So what's the biggest lesson your, your mom has taught you?

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Okay, there's a lot. And this might not be the actually most important lesson, but

• 21:45Speaker 02

  pretty early on, she and my dad

• 21:50Speaker 02

  kind of set this philosophy that like,

• 21:56Speaker 02

  Things are worth doing. I don't know how to put this. It's more fun to do things if you can do them well. And there's a way to do them well so that it's fun. And it comes with like a methodical approach and studying and learning. And this could be with school. It could be like math is more fun when you understand it and it takes a little work to understand it. But then it's then it's like doing a puzzle that's actually fun. Or soccer, growing up with my brother, he's two years older, two and a half years older than I am. And we both, you know, we both wanted to play soccer and try out for the local travel team in New Hampshire. And it was a really good team and like we needed to practice.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  And my mom like helped us. She she got the books and some DVDs and we would study like different drills and soccer move, like things we could learn and the Maradona and all these like fun tricks. And and just like learn how to juggle a soccer ball, like the basics of that. Learn how to dribble properly, learn how to like, then you practice working on speed. You practice running technique, all of those things. And it was a step by step like fundamentals. And we would, we worked on that in the summer and then we'd go back to our team in the fall. And especially my brother's coach, he was like, okay, Taylor is a Cinderella story of soccer. Because he had a growth spurt the year before.

• 23:25Speaker 02

  He grew a foot and a half.

• 23:27Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  And he literally, he like lost the ability to run. And my mom brought him back. She taught him how to run again. She got him like coordination. She like bought him a unicycle to practice balance and all of these different things like ways. Cause his whole, his whole goal was to get back on the team with his buddies. And he came back and he ended up being the fastest runner on the team. And his ball handling skills were like light years improved from what they were. And his coach was like, this isn't, this is unbelievable. I've never seen something like this happen when a kid grows a foot and a half. And it takes longer to get your coordination back than that. And my mom's like, yeah, well, that's what happens when you like work at it.

• 24:10Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  But it was all fun stuff too, like all summer long. Taylor and I would just play soccer together. And and with skiing, it's the same. I mean, it's all like. You learn the different skills and the fundamentals and tennis too. Tennis, something we love and it's so much fun to do it when you're playing well. And it actually stinks when you're not playing well. So that's kind of our, that's like a little bit of a family philosophy. And my mom just happens to be like the greatest teacher that I know. She just knows how to break down movements and explain it in a way that makes sense that people can learn. Like Taylor and I have a joke that she will

• 24:56Speaker 02

  see somebody struggling on the ski hill and someone we don't know, just like someone, the public just skiing. She'll see them struggling, can't make it down a trail and she'll go over to them and help them. And it's like five, it's like the five minute crash course in how to become a world cup skier. And by the end of that literal five minutes, getting down to the bottom of the trail, they're arcing turns and like enjoying it. I mean, for like, this is literally the difference between people doing the sport and not doing the sport. Because it's brutal if you can't make it down the hill. And it is so fun if you know how to like carve some turns and you can get down. And that's like the motto of life.

• 25:35Lewis Howes?

  What did she teach you during those that season or seasons of high pressure with the media or not winning as fast or losing every once in a while? What did she teach you about managing stress, anxiety, overwhelm and that psychological pressure?

• 25:53Speaker 02

  Well, she actually encouraged me to start talking to a sports psychologist. And she set me up with somebody that we knew, actually a family friend, but also a psychologist and

• 26:09Speaker 02

  she, like for a long time, I felt like I don't need a sports psychologist because I am actually very mentally stable and

• 26:16Lewis Howes?

  And you're winning.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  And I'm winning and I'm strong and I just, I've never felt pressure. I not never, but I didn't, pressure wasn't something like, I didn't really get nervous for the first bunch of years in my career. And

• 26:29Lewis Howes?

  You were just having fun.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  I was just having fun, even at the Olympics and the Sochi Olympics and standing at the start for the gold medal run.

• 26:40Speaker 02

  I was not nervous. Part of that, like I was pretty sick, so it might've been a little bit distraction, but.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  I was just like, pretty, not even confident, just like at peace.

• 26:54Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 26:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then I got into a phase where I got really nervous. I didn't know how to handle it. And my mom, she'd, she'd help me focus on things that were in my control. Like she'd help me focus on skiing, the skiing, the technical aspects and just things that I can control, I could control.

• 27:14Lewis Howes?

  As opposed to media or conversations or other athletes or?

• 27:18Speaker 02

  Or just like the, the random blips and thoughts that you get in your head throughout a race day. You know, race day is, it's wild, actually, in, in ski racing especially. It's, it's a nine to 10 hour day from the time you get out of bed to the time you get back to your hotel room after the race is over. And during that period of time, you have two minute long intervals that are actually important. And the rest of it, in 10 hours, the rest of it is sort of inconsequential.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  But also very important. But those two minutes, you need to be on and good. And it's like, sometimes you're like, how do I manage this? And your mind goes everywhere.

• 28:05Lewis Howes?

  How do you prepare for those?

• 28:06Speaker 02

  How do you prepare for it? How do you get through it? You, literally, your brain is like, the thoughts that run through my head on a race day, it's like, I don't know how to ski this, I don't, I don't know, the combination in a slalom court, like this flush or I don't, in a downhill, oh my gosh. Downhill is crazy. My mind goes totally wild. Cause you're, you're going like something between 60 to 80 um, at any given moment. And then you're going off these jumps and some of them carry pretty far. Like, women's races are typically around 20 to 40 meters. But there are some jumps where, like I've gone 50, 55 meters.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  And I, ever since I was little, I had a kind of scary accident going off of a jump. And ever since then, I have like recurring images of myself falling off of a jump, like crashing backwards, hitting my head, helmet flies off, like my limbs are flinging around. And that is, in a downhill without fail, when I see a jump, I'm like,

• 29:12Speaker 02

  I know that's not gonna happen because I know what the technique needs to be. I'm solid in the air, but I have to like breathe and like focus myself. And I'll literally be in the course, racing it, skiing up to the jump, imagining myself messing it up.

• 29:27Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Until the moment I go off and I'm like, no, now or never. Like you better do it right. Yeah.

• 29:35Lewis Howes?

  What has the sports psychologist taught you about how to not fully eliminate the memory of pain from the past of falling or potentially falling or whatever it might be? But how to know that's happened before. So you're not reckless, but also be at peace, knowing you've mastered skills to be prepared for this moment.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, well, now I've worked with since, since that first, that first season where I started working with a sports psychologist, I've now worked with several different psychologists, couple of different sports psychologists, and now actually just like a clinical overall psychologist and.

• 30:17Lewis Howes?

  How helpful has that been?

• 30:18Speaker 02

  It's been really, it's been huge. And a lot of it was like learning things about myself that almost maybe got hidden over the years. Maybe I started to shift my focus from the things that were important to me to the things that seemed important to everyone else. And just finding a balance because both actually, I feel like both things are important. A lot of times we talk this day and age about self-care, self-love and like just, just placing emphasis on what's important to you. But if there's people around you that you love, it's okay if their opinions matter to you as well.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  It's just like find the balance between what seems like it should be a priority. And you should prioritize yourself, but that doesn't mean that you discount what everyone else is saying. It's just like, take it all with a grain of salt, do your own personal weighing situation and come out with like, come to your conclusion based off what you think is most important. But I didn't like, I didn't necessarily have the balance at that time. So. With my first sports psychologist, we we worked on finding a balance of what's like important to me versus what's important to the media or how like I started doing some media prep questions, like we would figure out what people might say that would trigger me and

• 31:42Speaker 02

  give me that. It's not just like, it's not just puking. It's it's feeling like you're choking. That's what it is. It like triggers, not that anyone wants to know this, but it triggers a gag reflex, but it literally feels like the collar of your shirt is too tight. And you just, you have this pressure point right here, like your food's stuck in your throat. And that just like, that triggers it.

• 32:07Lewis Howes?

  Will make you throw up?

• 32:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. And

• 32:10Lewis Howes?

  And you were trying to figure out what's causing that choking?

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Like, why do I feel like some like, like something's closing in on my throat right now? Because there's literally like, if you see me in the start, it still happens sometimes, but it doesn't scare me anymore. Like, if I pull down my my race suit, sometimes it feels like it's right there in my throat. And I'll take my fingers and I'll just pull down my race suit like this. And that's normally like, that's normally a sign that I'm feeling nervous. But I don't mind it. I'm not, it doesn't necessarily trigger like, me to go off on the side and like puke or whatever. It just, I'm just like, oh, I need a little space in my throat. And it's, I'm comfortable in that space now. But it took me like, multiple psychologists to get to the level, like the last one I worked with, actually heading

• 32:56Speaker 02

  into the most recent Olympics, we were talking a lot about being comfortable, or getting comfortable being uncomfortable. And you're likely to be uncomfortable when you don't know what the outcome of something is going to be.

• 33:11Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  And

• 33:12Lewis Howes?

  You're not in control.

• 33:13Speaker 02

  You're not in control, and you want to be in control. And that was a really, like, that's how I always used to. I didn't care what the outcome was. I really cared how I got there. And then we'll figure it out, like, when I cross the finish line, then we'll see if I, if it was good enough to win or not. And

• 33:34Lewis Howes?

  Why do you care more now than than you did then?

• 33:37Speaker 02

  Uh, I wouldn't, I actually think I'm, I've sort of come full circle a little bit. Now, I almost, it's almost like when I was first starting out.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  And some of that probably has to do with this season and the record.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  Kind of like, basically, this season, I was like, I don't actually. I never felt like I should have been any, the person who was close to resetting this record. I didn't, it wasn't a goal. It wasn't on my radar, actually, ever. Like, I watched like Lindsay do that, get there. And I was like, that's happening for her. And I never, ever, I'd never, ever thought that I would be that one.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  So even getting that close this season, I was almost like, didn't want it to happen. I almost wanted Ingamar to stay the record holder for all of eternity.

• 34:38Lewis Howes?

  Why? Why did you not want to break the record?

• 34:40Speaker 02

  I just like,

• 34:44Lewis Howes?

  Why did you want to diminish your own greatness?

• 34:47Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know. I,

• 34:50Speaker 02

  I guess I just felt like if it happened, then, well, if ever, if it happened, everybody would start calling me the greatest of all time. And I don't see myself that way. And it's like, I do struggle a little bit when the world puts a label that doesn't coincide with my label for myself. So I'm like,

• 35:12Lewis Howes?

  How do you label yourself?

• 35:14Speaker 02

  I don't even know. I don't, Michaela Shafran, like, I got a name. I don't know. I just, the GOAT term is just like weird to me. And I feel, I feel like there's more than one. And the, the, the term itself, it implies that there's only one, but there are more than one. Like, people will debate LeBron James, Michael Jordan, like any of the others, for the rest of eternity. And I think that's good. I think that's a beautiful thing about sports. And, and skiing, I hope that people debate, you know, I'm part of the conversation, like, that in and of itself is enough of a win for me. But I hope people will debate it for the rest of all time. Like, I hope it's part of the conversation that two American women are at the top of the conversation for greatest of all time.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Like, that's really cool. That's really cool for American ski racing, for our, for our sport, for lifting the sport up in the US.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  And I don't want to take that title. Like, I want it to be the conversation because the conver, the conversation means people are talking about it and interested. And.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  And I like, I just don't see myself taking that over. And I want Ingamar, like, I want him to be the legend that, that never, like, his name never, ever disappears from the sport because he, he set the sport on the trajectory, trajectory, trajectory it is. So there's all these reasons why I like, was sort of conflicted about that. But in the end of the day, I just felt like, well, I'm not retiring. I'm doing well at this right now. If I keep skiing, if I keep skiing this way, I probably will break the record realistically. Break, probably reset. I don't like the break term either. Reset the record.

• 36:58Lewis Howes?

  Not in skiing, you don't want to say break in skiing.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  So realistically, it was gonna happen. So I was like, whatever, it'll happen when it happens. And just like letting that go and just not caring about it. It was like the beginning of my career when I sort of was just interested in finding out what my potential was.

• 37:18Lewis Howes?

  Right, less pressure and seeing what you're capable of in a race. How old are you now, 28, is that what, 20?

• 37:23Speaker 02

  28. Yes, no spring chicken.

• 37:27Lewis Howes?

  20, dude, man, I just, I just turned 40, so I'm trying to get back into college shape right now. I'm training like a machine.

• 37:33Speaker 02

  I think you're doing okay.

• 37:34Lewis Howes?

  You know, I appreciate it. I'm curious, 28, the most accomplished ski racer in the world, or one of the most.

• 37:45Lewis Howes?

  What is your biggest fear moving forward in your career and also in your personal life outside of your career?

• 37:53Speaker 02

  I don't really have, right now, I can't really think of a fear I have in my career. Maybe the only thing might be, like, injury.

• 38:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  Which has just always been, that's always there.

• 38:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  I definitely, like, I'm afraid, I do get afraid when I'm skiing. A lot of, a lot of racers will say they don't have any fear, and I definitely do.

• 38:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  I think it's fine.

• 38:17Lewis Howes?

  Crashing at 60 miles an hour is not fun.

• 38:19Speaker 02

  It's not fun.

• 38:19Lewis Howes?

  If you got a helmet on, it's not fun.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Not fun, and some would argue you have to, you can't have fear because you have to be willing to do that. And I'm like, well, I'm still afraid of doing that, but I'm gonna do this anyway.

• 38:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:29Speaker 02

  So I think there's all different ways you can approach that.

• 38:32Lewis Howes?

  It don't let the fear hold you back.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I definitely have it, and...

• 38:38Speaker 02

  I think it's, I do think it's important to admit when, to admit when you have fear to yourself. Cause it's kind of like, it's like a relationship and you're like, I gotta, I gotta let you know that I'm feeling this right now. And, and then you still, you still go for it.

• 38:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 38:54Speaker 02

  But anyway, that's a different side of things.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  Probably, I, I think I'm probably gonna know a little bit more about what I'm afraid of. Once we get back into the race season, as things pop up that I, right now, I don't feel it. I maybe feel a little bit on top of the world. This past season was amazing. I have nothing else that I expect to do, but I'm still like, I'm still training. I still feel like I'm doing great with my skiing and I feel like people have figured out that expectations are sort of meaningless, cause I've done, I've exceeded them. I've failed miserably. The only thing I can really think of that would be a fear of mine is like how it goes in the upcoming Olympics.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  And mostly, if I were to not win any medals again, how would people react again? But I actually asked somebody, kind of an advisor and one of, one of my sponsors recently. And he, I just was like, this is, this is a real thing. Like I'm afraid to hype myself up going into this next Olympics or allow anybody else to hype me up. Because I, like, what if it happens again? And Beijing was a very, like a standalone event. There, it was very unique with conditions. There were a lot of things there, like COVID. There were just a lot of things that built up prior to the games and during the games.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  That it's like, it wasn't even not, it was fully against me in a way. But everybody has to deal with something that's against them and some people made it anyway and I didn't. So there's that. But I still feel like.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  I don't know. The cards could stack up that way again and I could do my best and it still might, it still might not work out. And I'm not afraid to try, but I have a little bit of a like, what are people gonna say then? Because now people still say, you know, like record schmeckard, you don't have any gold medals. I'm like, I actually, we talked about this before. I feel the need to defend it. I'm like, I actually do. I have Olympic gold medals and I have many world championship gold medals. So like, you don't know what you're talking about, but that's like.

• 41:21Lewis Howes?

  So you're, you have a fear of, when is the next Olympics?

• 41:25Speaker 02

  2026.

• 41:26Lewis Howes?

  So what have you, in three years away?

• 41:28Speaker 02

  Three years away.

• 41:28Lewis Howes?

  Roughly three years away? Your fear is, in three years?

• 41:33Speaker 02

  In three years.

• 41:34Lewis Howes?

  What happens?

• 41:35Speaker 02

  What might happen?

• 41:36Lewis Howes?

  If I don't win a medal, or if I'm not a gold medalist again?

• 41:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:41Lewis Howes?

  What will people say about me?

• 41:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. A little, maybe a little bit.

• 41:47Lewis Howes?

  How is that serving and supporting you in your life right now?

• 41:51Speaker 02

  Just kind of exists. It's like, it doesn't have any impact on how I feel for this coming season. And this past season helped me a lot because I did get, I did win world championship medals. And it was sort of like, is it a big event thing? Is it a karma thing? Is it like, what, what is it about this? And there was a lot of, there was a lot of kind of drama surrounding this past world championship. So it was just like.

• 42:22Lewis Howes?

  Can she do it?

• 42:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. And some.

• 42:25Lewis Howes?

  And you did it.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it was, it was like boiled down to how I skied. But I almost, like, the, the first race I did, the, the combined event, like, I was skiing great. And I skied off the course. I DNF'd again, um, three gates from the finish. And there was like, there is a reason. We don't have to get into it now, but it was like, oh my gosh, it's happening again. I had a great run and then I just, all I needed to do was make it past the last two gates. It's just

• 42:57Lewis Howes?

  But you were leading.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  I was leading. It would have like, for sure, if I made it to the finish, it would have been a win, but it wasn't because I didn't make it.

• 43:04Lewis Howes?

  Was that a mental error in the moment?

• 43:07Speaker 02

  No.

• 43:07Lewis Howes?

  Was it a?

• 43:08Speaker 02

  It was act- well, it was a little bit of a mental error, but it was actually, there was a, there was a section of the course that, it was literally the last two gates of the course that was prepared differently because of the way the sunlight struck the hill, but also because they moved the finish line down from the earlier run. So it was like soft snow for the last two gates of the course. And I saw that and I didn't mentally, I didn't adjust to it. So it was a little bit, it was a little bit mental. For sure, I could have done that differently and made it to the finish, but I did, I was just like full gas and I didn't adjust.

• 43:45Lewis Howes?

  I want to ask you a few final questions. This is, I could do this conversation for hours with Michaela. This is inspiring. For me, I love talking to athletes who excel at the highest level. Um, so it's really cool to hear your perspective and your, your thought process on performing, training, coaching, failure, success, all these things. How do you visualize for success? I know you mentioned early on that you like, you don't really think about winning. You think about the next turn and really the whole course and the process of the course and getting through it. But do you dream and visualize about success the day before, the night before, once before a big event? How does that process work for you?

• 44:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um,

• 44:31Speaker 02

  it's kind of like a little bit multifaceted. Like I, I will visualize myself

• 44:39Speaker 02

  winning a race and like standing on the podium and the festivities after. I will visualize that, but that's more like I, that's more in the downtime when I'm daydreaming, when I'm training in the gym and I wanna like, I need one more set and I'm like, this is killing me. And that's kind of like,

• 44:58Lewis Howes?

  You think of that, yeah.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I kind of, that kind of helps me a little bit in those situations. Um, but then there's a visualization, like actual technical.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Imagery of my skiing and that I do almost every day. I think about skiing. I dream about skiing. And it's, it's literally just dreaming about the way that I want to ski my turns. That I think is the fastest way to do it. And when I'm actually like right now is sort of the off season. It's a lot more training in the gym. So I'm, I haven't been on snow since the end of, uh, the end of May.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  And so right now I'm maybe not thinking about it as much, but I'll be on the snow, on snow again at the end of the month, at the end of July. And as I get closer to that, I'm gonna like, I'm gonna pull up videos and watch my skiing image and look at some of my races from last season, especially the races that I didn't win. To see like, maybe watch the whoever won those races and see what they might've done better. Um, and see what I can focus on for these upcoming camps as we get closer to the season.

• 46:09Lewis Howes?

  Where's the snow in July?

• 46:11Speaker 02

  I'm going to man.

• 46:13Lewis Howes?

  There's snow there now?

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, there is snow there. There's snow there now.

• 46:17Lewis Howes?

  I was like, end of July, there's snow somewhere.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  I know. Well, it's just mostly because it's mostly because the, the west coast got so much snow this winter. Normally it wouldn't be good at this time, but I think, I think it's really good. But then otherwise we'll go to Chile in September.

• 46:31Lewis Howes?

  Oh, that'd be cool.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  That's a good time.

• 46:35Lewis Howes?

  This is a question I ask everyone towards the end of my interviews. It's called the three truths. So you're 28, but let's imagine you get to live as long as you want to live in this world. Extend your life as long as you want to live. And you get to accomplish and experience all the things you want to experience in life. From skiing to whatever activities you do after skiing to life, to family, whatever, any dreams you have, you get to have them come true. But for whatever reason, you can't leave anything behind. No one can watch the races you've done or any content you've made. You've got a YouTube channel, which is really great. I want people to watch that. Behind the scenes, but all the things you've created, this interview is gone. Hypothetically, it's all gone.

• 47:19Lewis Howes?

  But you get to leave behind three lessons you would leave with the world from your life experience. Three things that you know to be true, that feel good to you. What would be those three truths or lessons you would share with people?

• 47:32Speaker 02

  I think, um.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  That it's some, I'm not sure who said this, but failure isn't final. That would be one thing.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  And that it can actually be a lesson to help you succeed.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  Two would be.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  Everybody needs to compromise sometime.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Compromise is part of life and love and relationships.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  I feel like. Never forget where you're from. Is. Just like your roots and your upbringing and the life that brought you to where you are. Cause there's, there's lessons in there and hidden lessons that you'll be learning for the rest of time. I feel like first like eight years of life probably taught you everything you need to know, but you just didn't know it then.

• 48:41Lewis Howes?

  Those are beautiful. How can we be of support and service to you?

• 48:45Speaker 02

  Oh goodness.

• 48:47Lewis Howes?

  You're on, you've got a, you know, massive following on social media and I see on Instagram, I see you on the threads lately.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  Threads, yeah.

• 48:53Lewis Howes?

  Connecting with you on the threads.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  I'm a. Churries out on threads.

• 48:57Lewis Howes?

  You got your, you got your YouTube channel, which is, you know, showing really blogs behind the scenes of your life in between the slopes, which I think is really cool.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:06Lewis Howes?

  Uh, which will have all this linked up for people in the episode, but how can we be of support to you? In this season of life?

• 49:13Speaker 02

  Oh my goodness.

• 49:15Lewis Howes?

  You're up for a couple of ESPs.

• 49:17Speaker 02

  Up for a couple of ESPs.

• 49:18Lewis Howes?

  This will come out after the ESPs. So we're putting the intention out of good things to happen for you.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  I mean. It's maybe less just for me, but like ski racing is something I'm clearly passionate about. It's incredible sport, but skiing in general, and there's so much about the snow sports. That's. So beautiful, incredible, the community that.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  The the the family, the the friendships you make along the way. And I always, I always wish that I like, I know so many incredible athletes and people who love skiing, love snowboarding, love, love snow, love snow sports. And I'm like, just say it, tell people, spread the word. Cause it is maybe a little bit selfish that I, I want people to do it because I want it to have a future. And there's a lot more to it than that. There's a lot more and we didn't get into about climate and everything, but um, if it's a necessity for humans, we'll find a way to make it environmentally like forward

• 50:26Speaker 02

  thinking, progressive and friendly and, and I want it to be something that people care about. And I feel like that comes with a spark from people talking about it.

• 50:37Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  Mostly what you've already done, bringing me on the show and talking.

• 50:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  That's, that's actually, that's actually support enough. Of course, for me personally, but for skiing.

• 50:49Lewis Howes?

  Go ski and snowboard.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Go just try it.

• 50:52Lewis Howes?

  I'm a big snowboarder. I haven't done it in the last couple of years, but I want, hearing about going to Mammoth makes me want to go now this, this year. So if you ever do like a, a weekend camp, you know.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  I know, yeah, we should do it.

• 51:03Lewis Howes?

  Let me know and invite me and my girlfriend will come up and.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Oh, that would be so fun.

• 51:07Lewis Howes?

  Spread the message of skiing to the world.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  I need to think about that.

• 51:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you should put on your own kind of like weekend adventure for, for people. So.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Oh, that would be great. That's a great idea.

• 51:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Um, well, I want to acknowledge you, Michaela, for your courage, because I think the courage to say that you aren't that confident in certain areas of your life, I think is really inspiring because I think a lot of people look at you and think she wins constantly by large gaps. Uh, and she's won all these medals and she's the most winningest, you know, skier of all time and all these things and thinking you have this confidence in you, which I know you do, but I hear you saying that you don't in certain settings of life. So I really acknowledge you for having the courage to talk about that and also giving language to what it means to be. Great at something you do, you can still be nervous, you can still be insecure,

• 51:58Lewis Howes?

  but having the courage and trying and doing it to the best of your ability is what it's really all about.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:04Lewis Howes?

  So you've embodied that for really the last, I guess, 10, 12 years since you've been on the scene of skiing and really putting yourself out there. So I acknowledge you for your courage and your, your confidence, which you're very confident to me. So

• 52:18Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 52:19Lewis Howes?

  I acknowledge you for that, Michaela. My final question is, what is your definition of greatness?

• 52:25Speaker 02

  I think greatness is

• 52:30Speaker 02

  the feeling that you get when you do or experience or watch something that gives you the shivers down your spine. The sort of inspiration, just the feeling like, I can't believe I'm part of this moment.

• 52:47Lewis Howes?

  I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

• 53:31Lewis Howes?

  And now it's time to go out there and do something great.