EP.232 - PATRIC GAGNE ON BEING A SOCIOPATH & UPLIFTING MOVIE PICKS FROM PODCAST FRIENDS

Adam talks with Patric Gagne about her memoir Sociopath and shares some uplifting movie picks from friends of the podcast Conversation recorded face-to-face in London on 15th April, 2024 CONTAINS STRONG LANGUAGE Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and conversation editing Podcast illustration by Helen Green https://helengreenillustration.com/ RELATED LINKS HE MARRIED A SOCIOPATH - ME https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/16/style/modern-love-he-married-a-sociopath-me.html by Patric Gagne - 2020 (NY TIMES - PAYWALL) INTERVIEW WITH PATRIC GAGNE https://patricgagne.com/psychology-today-interview/ - 2024 (PSYCHOLOGY TODAY) INTERVIEW WITH PATRIC GAGNE https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/apr/08/patric-gagne-sociopath-fighting-urges by Emine Saner - 2024 (GUARDIAN) PATRIC GAGNE INSTAGRAM https://www.instagram.com/patricgagne/?hl=en-gb UPLIFTING MOVIES TASH DEMETRIOU'S PICKS WORKING GIRL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va1UqFivi6A Directed by Mike Nichols - 1989 (TRAILER ON YOUTUBE) BRIDESMAIDS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNppLrmdyug Directed by Paul Feig - 2011 (TRAILER ON YOUTUBE) NOW AND THEN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQLVzTtt2Ws Directed by Lesli Linka Glatter - 1986 (TRAILER ON YOUTUBE) RICHARD AYOADE'S PICKS STOP MAKING SENSE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rjMwSTeVeo Directed by Jonathan Demme - 1984 (TRAILER ON YOUTUBE) MONTEREY POP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNrygTqx0FA Directed by D. A. Pennebaker - 1968 (TRAILER ON YOUTUBE) AMERICAN MOVIE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMFZOu8rDUQ&t=16s Directed by Chris Smith - 1999 (TRAILER ON YOUTUBE) GARTH JENNINGS' PICK AMERICAN UTOPIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97nnV0fNd30 Directed by Spike Lee - 2021 (TRAILER ON YOUTUBE) ALEX HORNE'S PICK NEXT GOAL WINS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRH5u5lpArQ Directed by Taika Waititi - 2023 (TRAILER ON YOUTUBE) JAMIE DEMETRIOU'S PICK NEXT GOAL WINS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIeKkjJNM6A (ORIGINAL DOCUMENTARY) Directed by Mike Brett and Steve Jamison - 2014 (TRAILER ON YOUTUBE) KIM DEAL'S PICKS THE OMEN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYoA_2INGrU Directed by Richard Donner - 1976 (FULL MOVIE ON YOUTUBE) SMILE 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HY6QFlBzUY Directed by Charlie Sarroff - 2024 (TRAILER ON YOUTUBE) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Adam Buxton?

  I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening. I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke. My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man. I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan.

• 0:31Adam Buxton?

  Hey, how are you doing, podcasters? It's Adam Buxton here. Oh, come on, group hug.

• 0:41Adam Buxton?

  People are freaking out right now, but here's what they don't get, Caddy K. He's an orange wrecking ball. Why is that important? Here's why. He's just made the greatest political comeback since Grover Cleveland. And that has resonation, okay? Here's what I predict, Caddy K. Okay, he's gonna hire an all-British cabinet. He loves the British, Caddy K. He plays golf there in Scotchland. And he likes wimpy and drizzle. And he's gonna hire Philip Schofield as his chief of staff, Caddy K. And Noel Edmonds as his defence secretary. I'm running out of steam with my Scaramucci impression. Just trying to cheer you up a little bit, that's all, if you need cheering up.

• 1:26Adam Buxton?

  Okay, look, come on. Let me tell you about podcast number 232, which features a conversation with American writer, former therapist, and advocate for people suffering from sociopathic, psychopathic, and antisocial personality disorders, Patrick Gagne. In her memoir, Sociopath, published earlier this year, 2024, Patrick writes, "Your friends would probably describe me as nice. But guess what? I can't stand your friends. I'm a liar, I'm a thief, I'm highly manipulative. I don't care what other people think. I'm capable of almost anything." That's a line that is typical of the book's frequently frothy, novelistic

• 2:11Adam Buxton?

  style, and Patrick describes some hair-raising acts of antisocial and even violent behaviour in the course of telling her story. But the book is also an account of the frequently painful process of trying to better understand her diagnosis of sociopathy and its implications for her and people like her. In an interview from earlier this year in Psychology Today, Patrick said, "In pop culture, the term sociopathy has been misappropriated to represent every manner of evil. Any Google search related to sociopathy is likely to reveal little more than a list of serial killers alongside a decades-old behavioural checklist.

• 2:56Adam Buxton?

  These represent the most extreme versions of the sociopathic personality, and yet they've been co-opted to encapsulate the entirety of the disorder. This needs to change." Patrick also points out in that interview that there's a lot of confusion regarding the use of the word "sociopath". She says that there is a belief that the term was replaced by antisocial personality disorder. "It's critical to note," she says, "that you cannot diagnose sociopathy using the DSM criteria for antisocial personality disorder. The two have different diagnostic requirements and should not be used synonymously." This gap also means that the systems in place for dealing with most psychological conditions,

• 3:41Adam Buxton?

  from diagnosis to treatment to health insurance, aren't available for sociopaths. This isn't good for us or for society. My conversation with Patrick, who, incidentally, was born in 1976 and raised in San Francisco, California, was recorded face-to-face in London back in April of this year, and we talked about what the difference is between a sociopath and a psychopath. We also talked about the New York Times article that Patrick wrote back in 2020 entitled, "He Married a Sociopath: Me." Sorry, I'm really using the word sociopath a lot. There's not that much I can do about it.

• 4:22Adam Buxton?

  Anyway, in that article, Patrick wrote about her condition in the context of her marriage in a way that many people were surprised to find was quite relatable. We talked, well, I was surprised anyway. We talked about to what extent TV reality game shows and prank shows positively encourage sociopathic traits, with passing reference to Ashton Kutcher and Jason Goldberg's early 2000s MTV prank show Punkt. I also asked Patrick towards the end of our conversation about a few of the more skeptical responses that some people have had to her and the book. And I also just checked a few of my less desirable traits with her to see whether she thought I had anything to worry about.

• 5:08Adam Buxton?

  The fact that I was a little trepidatious before meeting Patrick, perhaps speaks to the kind of prejudice that she's hoping to address with this book. Anyway, I really enjoyed meeting her and talking to her and I think she had a good time too, but I don't know, see what you think.

• 5:26Adam Buxton?

  Hello, podcast. Sorry for the sudden change of scene. I'm in London now.

• 5:33Adam Buxton?

  Because I finished recording the intro and then I had to get the train to London. I ran out of time before recording the outro. But I wanted to flag that in the outro, there will be a handful of movie recommendations from some friends of the podcast, including Richard Iawade, Alex Horn, Tash and Jamie Demetriou, and Kim Deal. So stick around for that. But right now, with Patrick Gagny, here we go.

• 6:47Adam Buxton?

  So I wanted to start really by asking you why you wrote the book in the first place. I guess it came out of the New York Times piece, is that right, in 2020?

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Not exactly. I had written most of the book before that. And I remember saying to my husband, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna try to write this piece for the New York Times. And if it's accepted and if it's understood, then I'll release the book. Because at the time, I was very reluctant in releasing a memoir. I like to joke around that I did everything I could to not write a memoir. I tried sociopath self-help. I tried a sociopath for dummies type index. But ultimately, it was the personal stories that people kept resonating most with.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  And I thought, all right, I'll write this memoir and then I'll write this modern love article.

• 7:45Adam Buxton?

  Modern love being a strand in the New York Times where people write about their relationships?

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Correct. And if the Times accepts it and if the greater public accepts it, that it was sort of my litmus test for whether I wanted to release the book. But the book, for the most part, was done before I wrote the article.

• 8:02Adam Buxton?

  And the response to the article was good. I mean, it was fulsome. People were excited about it, a lot of commentary about it. Did you follow that commentary? Were you aware of what people were saying, how they were responding?

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Not really. And that's, this is where my husband tends to get into trouble because he does follow it a little too closely. But I was overwhelmed by the emails that I received directly from people all over the world saying that they felt seen, that they could identify with some of the things that I had discussed on that modern love article. And for the most part, I discussed very little. There was, you know, hints of my personality type here and there, but... I was really encouraged by all of the people who, for the first time, said that they had a name for the way that they were feeling and they felt less alone.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  So that was my experience after the Modern Love article. I was really encouraged by how many people who identified with my personality type were feeling seen for the first time.

• 9:08Adam Buxton?

  So in the article, you lay out briefly what your history is. I mean, would you do that for me now? Would you sort of explain to me how you became aware that you were? Would you call yourself neurodivergent?

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Completely. So I understood very early on that I was different. I had a sister, a younger sister, so I knew what complex emotional development looked like, and I understood that I didn't have it. I also understood at an early age that talking about that, telling people that I didn't feel empathy, telling people that I didn't care about certain things that I was quote unquote "supposed to care about" was the quickest way to get into trouble. So I learned very early how to hide, and it was a coping mechanism that, because I was never treated, developed into a lifestyle.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  I started experiencing compulsions toward destructive acts. I didn't understand why. I just knew as a kid, if I knocked over this pitcher onto the glass, some part of me would get a release. There was a type of pressure that I remember experiencing. Looking back, what I've sort of pieced together is that it was most likely my brain's way of trying to sort of jolt itself into feeling. But what's important to note, and this is a question that I get asked a lot, is the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  So a psychopath believes to suffer from biological abnormalities that make it impossible for them to move through complex emotional development. So while they are born with the same emotions most people are born with, or all people are born with, joy, Um, anger, happiness, sadness. They're unable to learn the so-called social emotions. So these are emotions that are taught to us as kids. Shame, guilt, love, empathy. Psychopaths are unable to learn those emotions. That is different from a sociopath who is capable of learning those emotions. They just learn them differently. And that was very much my experience.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  I didn't connect to things inherently, the way that a lot of my peers and my sister did. But as I got older, I realized, oh, I can love. I just come through a different door than others seem to. And once I got my diagnosis and I really started researching the personality type, I, I was amazed at how little resources were available to people with my personality type. And we're talking about 5% of the population is the sort of, you know, going understanding of how many people suffer from psychopathy. And yet there's nothing in any bookstore.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  There are no resource books or support groups or treatment plans. I was sort of left on my own to figure it out. And I did the best that I could with what I had, which was a lot.

• 12:18Adam Buxton?

  When did you receive your diagnosis then?

• 12:20Speaker 01

  In my twenties. My father insisted that I start seeing a therapist and, and I did semi reluctantly, but also not so, because I, as I got older, my destructive behaviors started to escalate. And although I had done a decent job of managing them, I, I really wanted to understand what was going on with me.

• 12:43Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. What are the main traits of a sociopath?

• 12:48Speaker 01

  I would say that the main trait of a sociopath is shallow emotion. So we have a difficult time internalizing the social emotions. We have a difficult time connecting with others, empathizing. Shame and guilt are not something with which I have a struggle. But we can learn them. And I think that sociopaths are often judged for their behavior, which is very fair. However, not all sociopaths act the same way. And that was something I sort of picked up on when I was looking into the research. Everything about the research was behavioral based.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  And I remember thinking, who's to say all sociopaths act like that? I remember also finding there to be a lot of gender bias. One of the hallmark traits of the sociopath is is social dominance. So someone who is sociopathic is going to come in and they're going to be loud and physically aggressive.

• 13:51Adam Buxton?

  Alphas.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  But that's really male. As a woman, I don't assert my dominance that way. I do that through charm and sex. I'm not going to come in throwing punches and knocking people off chairs. And I feel that those nuances are missed in the diagnostics and just the understanding of the disorder in general.

• 14:10Adam Buxton?

  Right. I suppose sociopath is one of those terms that people like to toss around and have done so increasingly in the last 20 years or so, a bit like narcissist. You know, it's one of those things. Suddenly everyone is an expert in psychology. And so, yeah, that guy, he's a total narcissist. Or I think they're on the spectrum for sociopathy there a little bit. Everyone's on the spectrum. I mean, now it's frowned upon a little bit more because people are more aware of autism and complex conditions like that. And they're trying to be more empathetic broadly speaking in society. So people might take a beat before saying that someone is on the spectrum these days.

• 14:53Adam Buxton?

  But yeah, sociopath is still very much tossed around, isn't it? And I guess people are thinking about, which you note in your book, popular culture, shows like Dexter, although Dexter's more of a psychopath, right?

• 15:08Speaker 01

  I would imagine, although he has the discipline to. Understand what he's doing is wrong and he's taking the steps to take a pro-social approach to them.

• 15:20Adam Buxton?

  He only chops up baddies.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Correct, which I think would speak to someone probably on the sociopathic spectrum more than on the psychopathic spectrum.

• 15:28Adam Buxton?

  Okay.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  But I, but he's a fictional character and that's a guess.

• 15:32Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  And also the character, his character is able to bond. He has a close relationship with his sister. He has a close relationship with some of his friends. The discipline that that character demonstrates, I don't know, I've always been on the fence with Dexter.

• 15:45Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. Did you enjoy that show?

• 15:46Speaker 01

  I did. I really did.

• 15:47Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, I had a, I had a complex and conflicted relationship with Dexter. I did think it was sort of entertaining, but a lot of the time I just wanted Dexter to fuck off.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  I know.

• 15:59Adam Buxton?

  He was just quite an annoying person. And actually, I was gonna say like, on the sociopathic spectrum, presumably there are dangerous people, right?

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's, that's the point I really want to make clear, is that the reputation of, of sociopathy to a large extent is well-earned. There are people who are believed to have been sociopaths that committed heinous crimes, but so have there been narcissists and so have there been schizophrenics.

• 16:29Adam Buxton?

  Sure.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  And, you know, to boil down a personality type to only the most extreme versions, I think is problematic. In much the same way it would be if you were only choosing to acknowledge stage four cancer. If the only cancers you are willing to acknowledge are stage four, you're going to miss stages one, two, and three, when they're still treatable. It all but guarantees more stages that are fatal and extreme. Who would do that? Nobody would. And yet, that's exactly what happens with sociopathy.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  These extreme examples only make up a very small percentage of the overall personality type, and yet they've been misappropriated to define the totality of it. And it's basically blocking people on the moderate side from getting the treatment and the resources that they so desperately need.

• 17:23Adam Buxton?

  But presumably, one problem with the milder side of the spectrum is that there's a fine line between a sociopath and just a dick.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 17:34Adam Buxton?

  And so I suppose one suspicion that people could have of someone like you, for example, is that you're using sociopathy as a cloak of kind of neurodivergent interest to cover up antisocial acts to celebrate sort of various flaws in your own personality.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Well, the only part about that I disagree with is that I I'm not trying to excuse or condone destructive behavior. I have always been very clear that destructive behavior should always be addressed first. If anyone comes to see a therapist, any personality type who is engaging in destructive behavior, be it self-harm or harm to others, that behavior should stop completely. What I'm trying to get people to understand is the destructive behaviors in which I engaged were driven by a compulsion, an almost, an urge to act out.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  And that's very different from someone who is being intentionally malicious, getting off on harming others, getting off on causing distress to others. I don't ever remember feeling that way. I remember feeling, ah, I have this opportunity to do this. I don't really want to, but I know if I don't, this pressure is just going to increase, so I just want to get it over with.

• 19:00Adam Buxton?

  And what was the nature of the pressure? You call it stuck pressure in the book.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Stuck stress.

• 19:05Adam Buxton?

  Stuck stress. And so can you explain to me what that is and what that feels like?

• 19:10Speaker 01

  It felt very claustrophobic. I remember as a kid just feeling like I was trapped. And what I have come to sort of piece together was that I was feeling apathy, I was feeling nothing, which I have grown to be very comfortable with. But as a child, the feeling of nothingness was a big indicator that There's something very different about you, and if you don't find a way to either fix it or mask it, you are going to be othered. And it was that inner turmoil of, I have to feel something, I have to feel something. And if I waited to, if I pushed down on the compulsions, they would only get more extreme.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  So I started engaging in smaller but more disciplined acts of deviance as a way to sort of offset the larger, more, you know, more spontaneous ones that tended to occur when I didn't act out. As soon as I start, the pressure began its rise.

• 20:10Adam Buxton?

  And so what was some of those? What were some of the smaller acts?

• 20:13Speaker 01

  When I was a kid, they could be anything from, I remember stealing backpacks a lot at school. Sometimes I took them home, but most of the times I didn't. I would just toss them over some bushes.

• 20:24Adam Buxton?

  That was you.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  I was wondering when you were going to piece that together.

• 20:27Adam Buxton?

  Where's my fucking backpack?

• 20:28Speaker 01

  It's probably still in the bushes where I threw it.

• 20:30Adam Buxton?

  I knew it was you.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  But again, I didn't want these things. And I wasn't trying to, half the time I didn't even know who the backpacks belonged to. It was just this feeling of do it, do it, do it, do it, do it.

• 20:43Adam Buxton?

  Right. And so then, in your teens, those acts got more dramatic, more illegal? Is that right?

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:51Adam Buxton?

  And they were, what sort of things were you up to in those days?

• 20:55Speaker 01

  The first thing I remember doing was following people. And I remember thinking, I'm not following these people to scare them or to harm them. I just, it was something that I knew I wasn't supposed to be doing, and it wasn't harmful to others, but it really helped relieve some of the pressure.

• 21:14Adam Buxton?

  Because you have control over that person when they don't know that you're following them, is that it?

• 21:19Speaker 01

  No, I don't think it has anything to do with the other person at all. It's, this is something I'm not supposed to be doing. And I, I also think it had to do with... I was alone. I felt the least amount of pressure when I was alone. Again, what I've sort of been able to piece together is when I was alone, there was no expectation of emotion from me. There was nobody asking me, "How do you feel?" or "You look weird," or "Why is your face like that?" I was just able to not feel. It was glorious. And following people around allowed me to be with people, but also not have anything to do with them at the same time. I think that's why, as a kid, I loved doing it. I loved watching people in their quote-unquote "normal" environments

• 22:03Speaker 01

  and sort of picturing myself in those environments one day. That was my

• 22:09Speaker 01

  my dream, as, "Oh, one day I'm gonna be like them. I'm gonna be normal like them."

• 22:14Adam Buxton?

  So, on a day-to-day basis, would you be sort of doing impressions of the way you felt, quote, "normal" people behaved?

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's very taxing, because I didn't, especially when I was a kid, I didn't have a lot to choose from. I really

• 22:32Speaker 01

  relied on my sister and her emotional cues.

• 22:35Adam Buxton?

  She's not a sociopath.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  She's the opposite. She has vast emotional depths. So I could only fake it by acting like her for so long, because, as I said, I'm not a very good actress. So my, you know, I would tip the hand eventually, and they would figure out, "Oh, wait, you're not not anything like your sister."

• 22:56Adam Buxton?

  She's younger than you.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, she is.

• 22:58Adam Buxton?

  But every now and again, maybe sometimes when you get stressed, you forget to do it, or if you're in physical pain?

• 23:05Speaker 01

  No, I would just, it's exhausting. I've explained, I've likened it to speaking a foreign language.

• 23:10Adam Buxton?

  Okay.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  So I can speak a foreign language conversationally, okay. But I've noticed that when I have to do it all day, by the end of the day, I'm exhausted. And that's how I felt a lot when I was younger, sort of masking and mirroring. It's a lot of work. It's like the engine of a computer overheating, running all day.

• 23:27Adam Buxton?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  And when I got to be alone, it was, "Oh, I don't have to have any of that."

• 23:31Adam Buxton?

  I mean, what you're describing is a little bit like most people feel.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  It really is. And that's what I'm trying to get people to understand. It was funny when I, when I Um, started writing this book. I had friends say, I mean, you're a sociopath, but you're not a sociopath like that. And it's, and that's the whole point. Yes, the like that element is the extreme example. Sociopathy, on the other hand, there's a lot of people that are more moderate and very relatable. I mean, everyone has that sort of front facing persona that they always put on. Sociopaths are not excluded from that. We all wear it. However, sociopaths seem to be the only personality type that, uh, who are villainized for it.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  So when I'm masking, it's because I'm trying to manipulate you. I'm trying to charm you or, or pull one over on you. It's really not what I'm doing at all. It's a coping mechanism because if I drop the mask and I present myself as my true self, I'm not going to be as pleasant. I'm going to be quieter. I'm going to be watching you, not because I'm trying to cause you harm, but just because I'm different. And I've learned that acting like a neurotypical person makes neurotypical people feel more comfortable. It's not malicious. It's common sense to me.

• 24:57Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. I mean, lying is a big part of the puzzle, isn't it? And the New York Times piece focuses on a lie that you felt your husband was perpetrating or, or a lack of honesty, which was about the fact that you felt he had a crush on someone at work and he wasn't coming clean about it, despite the fact that negotiations over honesty had been central to your relationship to the point where you had a, a kind of knick knack, a little sculpture, what was it?

• 25:26Speaker 01

  Uh, Statue of Liberty.

• 25:27Adam Buxton?

  Statue of Liberty. And that would be, you would leave it out for him as an indication that you had done something sociopathic.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:38Adam Buxton?

  And it wasn't even like that you had to sit down and discuss it and be honest. It was just like an indication to him that you wanted to be honest about where you were at.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  If he wanted to know, I would tell him.

• 25:50Adam Buxton?

  Right, okay, yeah. Regardless of how sociopathic it was, like if you did something very bad.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  No, it was just anything.

• 25:58Adam Buxton?

  It would be.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  That was our deal. He wanted to know anytime I did something destructive, whether it was extremely destructive or very minor, he wanted to know.

• 26:08Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah. And you stuck to that policy of honesty in your relationship, did you?

• 26:13Speaker 01

  I did.

• 26:13Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. So then you got annoyed when you felt he wasn't being honest with you. I mean, that's something, obviously, that anyone could relate to.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  I thought so too.

• 26:21Adam Buxton?

  Those kinds of negotiations in a relationship.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 26:24Adam Buxton?

  And how did the rest of that conversation go then? Did he ever admit that, oh, okay, yeah, I do have a crush, but I don't think it's useful to to admit to it.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think it really opened up a healthy conversation because my husband is Italian Catholic and he was raised to feel guilt about a lot of things. And I think that, I think that when he started developing feelings for this woman, he felt badly about them as if he had a choice or a say in the way he was feeling. And that's what I was trying to get at. It's really natural for you to have feelings for someone else. I don't believe as human beings, we're naturally monogamous. I believe it's a choice that we make. And I think that the best way to nurture that choice is to be honest.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  If my husband sees someone in a bar that he finds attractive, I want him to tell me about it. I want us to have that conversation. So when I could tell that he was having feelings for this woman, I wanted him to tell me about it. And he wouldn't. And I think it's because he was lying to himself first and foremost. And that's eventually what he sort of came to understand as well. It's okay for you to have feelings for someone else. It's okay for you to find someone else attractive. And to your point, I think that's really, really relatable for all types of personalities and all types of relationships.

• 27:55Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, it is, but.

• 27:58Adam Buxton?

  The reason you're not completely transparent about those moments in a relationship is that you never know how it's gonna go.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 28:08Adam Buxton?

  And you don't want to blow it up, either because you can't face it.

• 28:15Adam Buxton?

  But usually, it's just because, well, I don't want to create this block in the relationship, this point of conflict, which will be exaggerated beyond what it actually means. You know what I mean? It's like crushes come and go and obsessions come and go in that way.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Right, so why not? Why not have that be a part of your relationship? I think that it's problematic because so many people believe that when they get married or when they commit to one person, that that's it and they're never gonna find anyone else attractive and they're never gonna find anyone else interesting. And if they do, that means something's wrong. And what I was trying to explain to my husband is, I think that by choosing to deny reality doesn't make that reality any less true. It just makes you less safe within that reality. So let's just acknowledge what's going on. And in his case, he didn't have to worry about how it was gonna be received because I was

• 29:14Speaker 01

  telling him, I know and it's okay, let's just talk about it. It was his refusal to talk about it and his refusal to admit these feelings. And that was hard for me because, to your point, I was asked to do the exact opposite, to work hard to have increased self-awareness, increased understanding of my urges, increased understanding of my emotions or lack thereof. And it felt very hypocritical to me that he wasn't willing to do the same or wasn't able to do the same at the time.

• 29:46Adam Buxton?

  And are you honest with him? Do you sort of get crushes in the same way and are you honest with him when that happens?

• 29:52Speaker 01

  I don't get crushes in the same way, but I'm very honest if I find someone attractive. And I try to lead by example. So I'll say, I saw somebody cute today, you wanna hear about it? And then he'll decide whether he wants to hear about it or not. He always says yes, but yeah.

• 30:10Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, I mean, I do, I do relate to this a little bit. I've had the conf- I get frustrated with my wife because she claims, well, she's a bit inconsistent. Every now and again, she'll say, oh, he's quite attractive, and it'll be some absolute monster. It'll be like a, it'll be a sort of more grotesque, hairier, more troll-like version of me. And she goes, oh, he's attractive. And I just think, are you saying that to make me feel better about being a bit of a hairy troll? Or do you genuinely find hairy trolls attractive?

• 30:41Speaker 01

  I hope you say that. I hope you ask. Do you say that?

• 30:43Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, I do, yeah. But she won't admit it. And every now and again, I'll say, I'll see a very good-looking guy. I'm like, look at that guy. I bet you wish you had a slice of that fellow. And she's like, no. I'm like, don't, why, you don't lie. What's wrong with the guy? Look at, there's nothing wrong with that bloke. But she insists that she only finds trolls attractive. So I don't know. Maybe, maybe it's true, but I just can't believe it.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think what men think women find attractive is not the same as what women, and sometimes it is, but I, I've had similar conversations where that stereotypical, you know, quote unquote, hot guy, I'm just like, eh.

• 31:26Adam Buxton?

  Okay.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  And it'll be someone else. And he's like, really? So I don't know. I think it, it, I think that men have a very skewed perception of what some women find attractive, maybe not all.

• 31:38Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, fair enough.

• 32:12Adam Buxton?

  You talk very interestingly about your relationship with music in the book. Your dad, is he still with us, your dad? Is he still in the music industry?

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Here and there. He'll he'll consult occasionally, but mostly he's retired.

• 32:24Adam Buxton?

  A talent manager, is that right?

• 32:26Speaker 01

  He did a lot of things. He started in radio and did record promotions and then he, the end of his career was spent in music management.

• 32:34Adam Buxton?

  Okay, and that's something you did a little bit as well. Did you work for him? Right. And then were you ever independent? Did you sort of set up on your own?

• 32:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 32:42Adam Buxton?

  No.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Nepotism, all the way.

• 32:44Adam Buxton?

  Okay. How long were you in the music industry?

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Gosh, like fifteen years maybe, but again, it's hard to, I was just working for my dad, you know, I don't want to get it twisted. I didn't carve some, you know, niche for myself or stand on my own two feet, but it was sort of peering over his shoulder at first and then I did work full time for him. Sort of after college, towards the end of college.

• 33:08Adam Buxton?

  You also worked on Punk'd for a while?

• 33:10Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 33:11Adam Buxton?

  No.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  One of my, uh, one of the artists that my father.

• 33:14Adam Buxton?

  Oh, yes.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Company, yes, they were tapped to be, um, victims.

• 33:19Adam Buxton?

  Gonna be Punk'd?

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Actually, I think it happened more than one time.

• 33:22Adam Buxton?

  Okay, right. And so then you went along and watched the punking?

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. I wish I could have worked for Punk'd. That sounds like it would have been a great job for me.

• 33:33Adam Buxton?

  They must have a few sociopaths.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  They do. I'm sure.

• 33:36Adam Buxton?

  Well, I've always felt with any kind of pranking, it takes a certain amount of, well, there's got to be some careful management of shame and guilt and.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Yes, um, I was speaking to someone recently about the show Traitors.

• 33:53Adam Buxton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  And how I started watching it and I was really blown away by how quickly all of these people dropped immediately into their, you know, quote unquote sociopathic selves. But yeah, like Punk'd and and Traitors, I mean, this is, it requires, I would say, a surplus of sociopathic fluidity.

• 34:12Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, people like Sacha Baron Cohen.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. Come on.

• 34:17Adam Buxton?

  The greatest prankers of the world are also possibly the most massive wankers. I'm not, I'm not saying that Sacha Baron Cohen is, but.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  But he certainly is able to step in and out of pro-social and antisocial.

• 34:31Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, I mean, this is. That's why those films are extraordinary is because you're watching people doing things that most of us would never be able to do because there are too many things preventing us from doing so.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  And if people are being honest, there's a bit of wish fulfillment in there.

• 34:46Adam Buxton?

  Sure, yeah.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  I wish I could be doing that. Well, why can't you? You know?

• 34:50Adam Buxton?

  Because I'd get punched in the knob. Have you ever talked to anyone who works on those kinds of shows?

• 34:56Speaker 01

  I have. It's they have one of the best jobs in the world, the producers on those shows, the the ones that are on the field with them.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  I have a friend who used to to do that for a living and listening to her stories, it sounds like it's what I always wanted as a kid, to be right in the middle of this absolute chaos, but you're not expected to participate. In fact, you're prevented from engaging at all. So you're just.

• 35:23Adam Buxton?

  Total voyeurism.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  Sitting there watching it all go down.

• 35:26Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. Do they screen for more extreme personality types? Are they sort of trying to be responsible and going, well, look, we can't have a real someone with real problems, like an extreme sociopath with dangerous tendencies. We they might make great TV. We know they will, but we can't have that.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  I mean, do you want to know how they really screen?

• 35:50Speaker 01

  They ask for a list of medications and they screen that way. So if they have your medications, they know what you're struggling with mentally. I remember hearing that and thinking, that's genius, because you can't ask someone if they struggle, or you can, but you're not going to ask someone if you what what mental disorders you have. But if you get a list of their medications, the medications will tell you what they're struggling with.

• 36:15Adam Buxton?

  Oh, that's dark. I mean, I think that's changing a lot. I'm sure all shows.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  I'm sure. And this is.

• 36:21Adam Buxton?

  Do that.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  This is outdated. This is from a while ago.

• 36:24Adam Buxton?

  Right, right. Because people have taken their own lives on some of those after being on some of those shows.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Yes, they have.

• 36:29Adam Buxton?

  So the pastoral care is a lot better now. But still, even so, I mean, they can all kid themselves as much as they like that there are no consequences. But going on even traitors, which is pretty good natured. People were invested in it in the right spirit. They understood.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 36:44Adam Buxton?

  But you can see, watching the show, the emotions are real.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:47Adam Buxton?

  And afterwards, after you come out of a show like that, when you are made aware of the way that people are responding to it online or wherever, and the depth of genuine anger and passion that there is from people watching the show, that's got to do something to you as a person. Did you ever used to get into, or do you still, get into confrontations when things are unjust, like I know, well, for example, getting into rows with public officials or whatever, who are being petty or anything like that?

• 37:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 37:20Adam Buxton?

  No.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  If I'm gonna do something about it, I'm gonna, I'm gonna,

• 37:26Speaker 01

  it's gonna be subtle and, and you're not gonna know about it.

• 37:30Adam Buxton?

  That's chilling.

• 37:34Adam Buxton?

  I forgot to say, when we were talking about music, I really liked the way that you customized the lyrics of some of your favorite songs to express how you actually felt about certain things. Do you remember your customization of How Soon Is Now by The Smiths?

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Of course, of course. I am the queen and the heir of a numbness that is criminally vulgar. I am the queen and heir of nothing in particular. You shut your mouth, how can you say? I go about things the wrong way. I am human with no need to be loved, not like everybody else does.

• 38:07Adam Buxton?

  That's a good customization of Morrissey there. And yeah, because I was interested in how you engage with popular culture, modern culture, films, TV shows, et cetera, that are all constructed around narratives of generally conventional sets of emotions and impulses. And how do they appear to you? And how do you get your head around them? How do you engage with them that's different from us other people?

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Music was always my companion.

• 38:40Adam Buxton?

  Hmm.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  I remember feeling less alone because music was something that everybody seemed to like, myself included. And yes, I had to adjust the lyrics from time to time in order to make them fit, but.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Again, it was, it was sort of like, as my young self, I was standing outside of like, department store glass, and on the other side was this colorful world of emotion and all these people connecting. And, and I think I say this in the book, yeah, it's in this scene, I know exactly where it is.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  I wrote, "It's so hard to explain, because I don't relate to other people the way you do, the way most people do. I don't care about things normal people care about. I don't like interacting with people because they don't connect to me and I can't connect to them. But just because I can't connect doesn't mean I don't wish I could." And that was really how I felt, you know, watching movies and television, it gave me, again, this proximity to normal that I couldn't get elsewhere. And so I might not have been able to connect to everything. I liked the company. I liked sitting in it. It was, it

• 39:57Speaker 01

  was, I think, nice in the same way that someone who's neurotypical would find it nice. You got company. They might not be like you, but you got company.

• 40:06Adam Buxton?

  And yet, that seems to me at odds with not caring, which seems a central part of your psychological makeup as well.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  It's a sort of blanket statement, like, "I don't care." I don't tend to care about things that neurotypical people care about. So, there's, I, there's a lot of fixation on what other people think. There's a lot of fixation on people pleasing, on what I ought to do, or what I should do. To your point, what irks you, what offends you, nothing, I don't care. But I do care. It's just I care differently. And film and television and music gave me the permission to care in the way that came naturally to me, without any repercussions, positive or negative.

• 40:51Adam Buxton?

  Hmm. I wanted to ask you about, when you were writing the book... Was there a conversation about how you were going, what style you were going to use? For example, when you're recounting presumably true moments and incidents and conversations, you are recounting them in detail.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 41:12Adam Buxton?

  And you're talking about, presumably you're sitting there and you're embellishing real recollections and you're sort of semi imagining them.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  So I remember, some things I remember with absolute clarity. Other things, I remembered the way that, that I felt in that moment. If I can, sometimes they were, they were verbatim quotes and sometimes they were, I know that this person didn't say exactly this way, but this is what they meant when they said it. So I, I would write it that way. And everyone with whom I've spoken that's in the book has been really pleased with the way they're presented.

• 41:48Adam Buxton?

  Okay, I was going to ask, yeah. Because presumably you've got pseudonyms for most people in there. Presumably there are a few composite characters.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:57Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. But I'm sure.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Very few, I can only think of two.

• 42:02Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. But presumably there are some people who could identify themselves.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 42:08Adam Buxton?

  I mean, you laugh when you're reading the section in the audiobook in a way that sounds very candid and genuine. When you're talking about your husband's boss and you're going for dinner and your husband's boss has made it clear to your husband that he doesn't like it when women use bad language. And so.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  It may as well have been a dare.

• 42:30Adam Buxton?

  So you go to dinner and inevitably you drop some F bombs. But does your husband just not know that guy anymore? So it's not an issue or is that awkward, that kind of thing?

• 42:40Speaker 01

  I never liked that guy. He was a untrustworthy person and, and my husband did not feel the same way, but hindsight is 2020 and he is, he was very okay with me relaying that story.

• 42:54Adam Buxton?

  Okay, right. People are obviously fascinated by what's real and what's not. And actually. You know, I'm interested in the sort of novelistic approach to the memoir form because it does blur the lines and it does make it confusing for a reader. They are wondering like, is this real? How much of this can I take as gospel? And then when you are also talking about serious subjects, it raises the stakes and people then get antsy about it. And then they, you know, because at a certain point, I sort of, it occurred to me like, well, what's to say that this person, Patrick, hasn't just invented this entire personality, this entire persona?

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 43:40Adam Buxton?

  Five years ago, your background's in acting and comedy in some, to some degree. You sort of think, here's the thing, you know, I have these atypical personality traits. I could create this character who is a sociopath. I could write about her life from a first person point of view. It would make a good story. I've had some interesting experiences. And, you know, I suddenly had this thought, I was like, well, I, I should check that that isn't the case. So I was sort of looking online for hits for Patrick Gagné 2015 or whatever, just to see if you had a life online beforehand. And then in the process of doing that, came across a series of posts on Reddit where they're talking about the novel.

• 44:25Adam Buxton?

  You know, there's inevitably going to be some kind of discussions about what's real, what's not. Are we being taken for a ride here? Is this person's credentials all legit? Are they just sort of exploiting this condition to get a book out of it? And if it's okay with you, I wanted to put some of the specific comments.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 44:44Adam Buxton?

  That I found there to you. So, I mean, I think we've dealt with some of these over the course of the last hour or so. Someone here says, this is the Kraken, says, "I could understand someone trying to declaim the term sociopath, but this article," I think they're talking about the New York Times article, "also felt like an unethical way to publicly accuse her husband of dishonesty, and at the very least, emotional infidelity. When that's coupled with the fact that she doesn't post her credentials, or have much info about mental health in general on her website, that is supposedly dedicated to mental health advocacy, I get funky vibes."

• 45:23Speaker 01

  That's fair. To the first point, my husband actually edited that New York Times piece before it went out. I don't show anyone anything before my husband sees it, out of respect to him, but also because I don't have the best barometer for what's okay, and he does. So, everything goes through him. And I've never been someone who was a sharer. When I got my PhD, I did that for myself. I wasn't, I wish I could say that I was an altruistic person, but really, it was selfishly motivated. So, although, yes, I

• 46:04Speaker 01

  work in advocacy, all of my work has just been my own thing. I haven't tried to be public, I haven't wanted to be overly vocal about it, until now, and that website was just sort of a placeholder. I didn't think about it, in terms of credentials or believability. I didn't consider that at all.

• 46:25Adam Buxton?

  When you say your PhD was selfishly motivated, that's because you wanted to understand what was going on with you.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Myself. Now, over the course of my doctorate, I realized, oh, I'm gonna have to learn about these other personality types, too. But it was a gift that I'm incredibly grateful to have received, if not reluctantly, because understanding other personality types really helped me understand the world, and my place in it, and neurodivergent places in it.

• 46:58Adam Buxton?

  Um, here is a comment from someone about about the dissertation, saying her dissertation is legit, according to the school's registrar, but it's not available online, as most dissertations are. The entire point being that they're meant to contribute to public knowledge, and most schools require students to have them made available. The average grad student leaves a track record. So they're just sort of worried about, like, why isn't it more visible, easily found?

• 47:24Speaker 01

  I understand. I it wasn't a requirement. All I was required to do was log a copy with the school library, which I did, and then I was done. And I think a lot of people want to contribute in a way, want, um, especially if you're pursuing like a researcher track. That wasn't what I was doing. I was just trying to get my degree and get out of there.

• 47:45Adam Buxton?

  Mm hmm. I think we've sort of covered this, but someone called Mamba Spice says, how's she gone through her entire life doing all this crazy illegal shit and zero consequences?

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Because I'm white, and I'm blonde, and I've got enough money that I can slide beneath the radar. There is no question, you know, sociopathy is sociopathy, but how that experience is lived differs greatly dependent on race, gender, and socio-economic stratas. And I understand that. And I would not be here today if I hadn't had the resources to pursue a degree, pursue a graduate degree, and spend years in therapy. And I had also the luxury of time where I could sit in libraries for hours on end researching this stuff.

• 48:36Adam Buxton?

  That's a great answer to that, but I wonder if we could preface that now by just sort of running quickly through some of the more extraordinary things that you did. Is that okay?

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 48:46Adam Buxton?

  There's a whole motif in the book about a woman that was trying to blackmail you at one point. Is that all true?

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I mean, you'll be hard pressed to find any, I mean, there are going to be some things that might be composite, so so details have been changed, but the stories are true.

• 49:02Adam Buxton?

  I mean, you certainly were driven to the point of getting so upset and angry with her that you thought about hurting her.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  That was, that was tough. That was a real, especially because of that, this was at a time in my life where I was really teetering on, what's the point, you know? I, I get the same result, whether I give in to my darkest impulses or not. At the time, my then boyfriend and I were struggling. I didn't really like my job very much. And I remember thinking, I could do this and I could get away with it. So why don't I just do it? It was a real, it was a real struggle, especially because this person was so vile. And I, I felt at the time that I had all the justification in the world to do something to her, even though I really didn't need the justification.

• 50:00Adam Buxton?

  And to explain for people who haven't read the book, she was trying to blackmail you because her son was managed by your dad at a certain point. And she was unhappy with how that had gone. Why didn't she try and blackmail him directly? She reckoned that she had pictures of him getting up to all sorts.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  I think that she thought I was an easier target.

• 50:22Adam Buxton?

  Right, okay.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  When, boy, was she wrong. She should have gone for him.

• 50:26Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 50:28Adam Buxton?

  And then after you resisted the impulse to do anything violent, did that feel good? Or was that just frustrating?

• 50:35Speaker 01

  No, it was frustrating. So I remember keeping her on the line for a while, like just like a fish on a line. I would tug at it just because I didn't, I could have paid her off and made her go away. I could have just ignored her, but I didn't. I would answer the phone calls. I would, I would toy with her and, and I kept that going for longer than I should have because I got a jolt just from messing with her.

• 51:00Adam Buxton?

  But did it upset you? Did it frighten you that this person was?

• 51:03Speaker 01

  No. It, it, it delighted me in the sense that, ah, okay, now I don't need to look for anything. I don't need to look for my jolts of emotion because I have free meat on which I can feed for as long as you'll keep giving it to me. It was an excuse to, to, to give in to all sorts of bad behavior.

• 51:24Adam Buxton?

  And sorry if you've sort of said all this before, but I'm still, I still find myself confused by the idea that you are bothered by certain parts of your behavior. Isn't that the same as guilt? Isn't that just guilt in another form?

• 51:40Speaker 01

  No, because I don't feel guilty about my behavior. I didn't like that I was unable to make the urges dissipate without being reliant on destructive behavior, because overall it wasn't an effective strategy. I was able to get away with it for a while, but I wouldn't have been able to get away with it forever. And ultimately, I wanted to get married. I wanted to, I wanted to enjoy the perks of society. And I knew that the two lifestyles could not coexist.

• 52:14Adam Buxton?

  I wanted to be a normie.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  Well, I wanted to be able to exist among the normies.

• 52:17Adam Buxton?

  Okay.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  And I didn't, and I knew that breaking into houses and stealing cars, that wasn't the best long-term strategy.

• 52:25Adam Buxton?

  Have you ever come across someone socially and thought, oh, mate, you are so sociopathic and you don't know it?

• 52:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think it's, um, what it boils down to is just sort of like the lights are on, but no one's home type thing. So they're saying all the right things, they're doing all the right things, they're very, very charming. But you'll ask them, you'll get them talking about maybe their significant other, you know? Really like, oh, I'm so in love with you. You'll get them talking, talking, talking, and then you'll say, what's your favorite movie? And they won't know. Or what's your favorite song? And they won't know. Or just anything beyond an extension of themselves or an extension of what they're quote unquote supposed to say. They can't back it up with any actual knowledge of the person.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  That's usually a pretty good giveaway. Unfortunately, it's also a giveaway of a narcissist. So.

• 53:21Adam Buxton?

  Fuck.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 53:23Adam Buxton?

  Take and take.

• 53:26Adam Buxton?

  I thought I would share with you some of my borderline sociopathic traits and see what you thought.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Please, always happy to be in good company.

• 53:33Adam Buxton?

  All right, good.

• 53:36Adam Buxton?

  I did a bit of stealing when I was younger, but a lot of people do, don't they?

• 53:40Speaker 01

  A lot of people do.

• 53:41Adam Buxton?

  Go through some shoplifting phases.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:45Adam Buxton?

  Well, I had one incident of stealing some chewing gum when I was really very little. I saw it on the floor of a shop, took it home and knew that I shouldn't, but justified it to myself because it was on the floor. I thought, oh, they don't want it anymore. It's fine, I can have it. And then my dad found it, he's like, what are you doing with this? This was not paid for. And then he burned it.

• 54:12Adam Buxton?

  It's such a weird thing to do with chewing gum.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  It really is. I was not expecting that.

• 54:18Adam Buxton?

  I just remember seeing it dribble down the fake coal.

• 54:24Adam Buxton?

  And thought, that's not the way to deal with stolen chewing gum.

• 54:30Adam Buxton?

  How about someone like Donald Trump? And I know this is a cliche thing to say, but would you look at someone like him and go, yep, he's on some kind of spectrum, or at least he is operating without certain governing emotions that most of us have to reckon with?

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Again, you know, I'm going to go back to what you said before. You were talking about how your own, like the things that you did, what it was that was sociopathic, the stealing. I would look at the motivation for that behavior. And that's really what this all boils down to, because everybody has those bouts of thievery when they're kids, or they're up to something, and even into adulthood or adolescence. What is motivating that behavior? My guess is you weren't stealing those things because you felt apathy and you were trying to force a pop of feeling. Same with someone like Donald Trump. You're looking at this antisocial behavior. I look at the motivation behind the behavior and what I see is a lot of emotion.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  I don't see a void. I see a surplus. So I would rule him out of the sociopathic camp for that reason, that I see him as being a very emotional person.

• 55:38Adam Buxton?

  Right, okay. And his emotions are, depending on whether you like him or not, for someone like me, I don't admire the guy. And if there's emotion there, it is directed at improving his lot in the world and accessing power.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. And that leans more toward narcissism than sociopathy.

• 55:57Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  And also narcissism is also associated with grandiosity to a large extent. So if you look at, everything has to be the best, everything has to be perfect. And that also speaks to to him and his lifestyle.

• 56:13Adam Buxton?

  Mm hmm. I'm still thinking about what my wife's favorite film is. I don't know if I know.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  Well, you might be in trouble.

• 56:21Adam Buxton?

  Shit.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  You can probably tell me your favorite genre.

• 56:24Adam Buxton?

  Yes, I would say it's generally romantic comedies with Jennifer Aniston. Although I've said that publicly before and she goes, fuck off, it's not. Um, but I think she does like those. I'll tell you what her favorite film is.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  See, here it is. Yeah.

• 56:39Adam Buxton?

  It's Alpha Papa with Alan Partridge. Have you ever seen that?

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Uh uh.

• 56:44Adam Buxton?

  It's pretty good.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 56:45Adam Buxton?

  But it's not as good as she thinks it is. And I refuse to watch it for the sixth time.

• 56:56Adam Buxton?

  Wait.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  This is an ad for Squarespace. Okay, we'll return to the AI apocalypse in just a wee wee moment. But first, I wanted to talk about Squarespace. Do you know about Squarespace, Steve? Uh, yes, Monty. I think I might even be a little bit more tuned into modern tech, websites, et cetera, than you. I don't know, just guessing. Oh, Steve, I love this dynamic. I'm old and conservative and you're young and progressive. And thus what makes the Newswind podcast such great listening. But yes, you're right. I must admit, I didn't know much about Squarespace. But because my new grumble book, Hell in a Handcart, is out this And I look forward to getting enraged by that. So I should hope.

• 57:31Speaker 02

  Anyway, the publishers, Bluestar and Dogwhistle, made a beautiful website for the book using Squarespace. I know, I got the newsletter that you sent out using Squarespace, and the website does look great. Videos of you airing your views, members' areas for your mad fans. You've even got a merch store, I see. That's right, the Union Jack top hat is a big seller. But they constructed it all so fast with Squarespace. They did most of it over one lunchtime, Steve. Well, you wouldn't want to spend much longer on it, would you? Shut up, Steve. But here's the thing, anyone listening to this can start a free trial right now at Squarespace.com/boxton and see how easy and versatile Squarespace is. And when they're ready to launch a new website or domain, they can save 10% off their first purchase by using the offer code BOXTON at checkout. Right, well, maybe I'll visit Squarespace.com/boxton and start a new website just to refute all the nonsense in your new book.

• 58:15Speaker 02

  Oh, don't do that, Steve. I will. Oh, shut up, Steve. Uh. Shut up. Now, back to more depressing matters on Newsweek.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  Continue. If you believe that God makes miracles, you have to wonder if Satan has a few up his sleeve. Fuck off, Dexter.

• 58:39Adam Buxton?

  Hey, welcome back, podcats. That was Patrick Gagne there. I'm very grateful to her for making the time to talk to me. There's a few links in the description of today's podcast if you'd like to do some further Patrick-related reading. So as you can hear, I'm in London, as I said at the end of my intro. I just timed everything wrong.

• 59:03Adam Buxton?

  I thought I had enough time to record the intro and the outro before I left for London, but I didn't, so... That's why I'm here now. In East London, I'm staying tonight, recording with another podcast guest tomorrow, and I have a couple of meetings. But I thought rather than just record this in my room on my own, I'd come out and you could enjoy the sounds of groovy East London. I'm just off Brick Lane right now. I'm looking over towards Rough Trade Records.

• 59:37Adam Buxton?

  Anyway, as I said at the end of the intro, I wanted to share a few recommendations for movies that you might find uplifting if you could use a break. Or, you know, you just fancy a bit of an uplift. I think you've earned it.

• 59:54Adam Buxton?

  So rather than just trotting out my usual ones, which I might end up doing anyway at some point, I ended up texting a few former podcast guests to ask them for some recommendations. I got some nice responses. A few well-known titles, some of it more obscure, several I hadn't actually seen. So I thought I would share a few of them with you over the next few weeks. Today I'm gonna do a few people's recommendations, and maybe it might be too much, but what you can do is just watch a few trailers that you think sound interesting. I'll put links in the description. And then you can make your choice. I'm trying to give you as many options as possible, even though sometimes it's better to have fewer options.

• 1:00:39Adam Buxton?

  Shut up, Buckles, just give the recommendations. Alright, calm down. So first of all, I texted a friend of the podcast, Tash Demetriou. She said, "I'll have a think. Top of my head, Home Alone 2, because there's that guy in it that I love. Donald Trump, bit of humor." From Tash there, "I've never seen Home Alone 2, maybe she genuinely likes that movie." But she also picked Working Girl, which I like too, actually, directed by Mike Nichols, 1989. Tess, an ambitious young secretary played by Melanie Griffith, aspires to become successful financially. It's very 80s. And aspirational, big hair, big shoulder pads.

• 1:01:22Adam Buxton?

  When her boss gets injured, her boss played by Sigourney Weaver, during a skiing accident, she takes advantage of the opportunity to make headway in her career with the help of Harrison Ford. Everyone's on good form in that movie. Melanie Griffith's brilliant in it. I agree with that choice, Tash, I like that movie too. Bridesmaids, of course. Quite a few people said bridesmaids. I mean, I've said before many times on this podcast, that never fails to... Cheer me up. The Plane Scene, especially, directed by Paul Feig, 2011. I don't really need to tell you what it's about. It's about some bridesmaids. Maya Rudolph is in there, Rose Byrne, Melissa McCarthy, Chris O'Dowd is fantastic.

• 1:02:07Adam Buxton?

  I mean, they're all brilliant in that. Kristen Wiig, though, oh my goodness, amazing. And a movie I haven't seen, which Tash recommends for uplift, Now and Then, directed by Leslie Linker Glatter, 1986. Four childhood friends gather to prepare for the birth of Chrissie's baby. It's Chrissie's baby. They wonder how the girls they were at 12 years could possibly have become the women they are now. Stars Rosie O'Donnell, Christina Ricci, Demi Moore, Melanie Griffith, Gabby Hoffman, and Thora Birch. It looks a bit like, you know, it's a sort of rites of passage, teen friendship movie.

• 1:02:49Adam Buxton?

  Not totally unlike Stand By Me, but maybe a bit more cuddly. But I haven't seen it. It looks fun. So those are Tash's recommendations. Now, here is a voice message from friend of the podcast, Richard Iowady.

• 1:03:06Speaker 03

  Hi, Adam. The one that came immediately to mind was Stop Making Sense. But I suppose you have to, well, I don't know that you have to already be a Talking Heads fan, but if you don't like their music, it's probably not that uplifting. But I'd say by the end of that film, when everyone's standing up and you've gone through the various David Byrne drivings, it's pretty good. Monterey Pop Festival, I'd also say it's consistently uplifting. Now, for whatever reason, I also find the American movie documentary that Chris Smith made incredibly uplifting, although it's got melancholy in it. Okay, hope you're well. Bye.

• 1:03:51Adam Buxton?

  There you go, Richard Iowady. Well, I love Stop Making Sense.

• 1:03:57Adam Buxton?

  Regular podcasts may have heard me getting teary about it back in the day when Jonathan Demme died. But I do love that film directed by Jonathan Demme, Talking Heads concert film, thought to be one of the best concert films ever made.

• 1:04:14Adam Buxton?

  And it is absolutely uplifting. American Utopia is brilliant as well, the film of David Byrne's concert directed by Spike Lee, I think, which came out three years ago or something. That's very good. Garth Jennings, another friend of the podcast, recommends that one. Even if you're not like the biggest Talking Heads and David Byrne fan, I would recommend that one. If you like music, check it out. American Movie as well, that's a great shout. I haven't seen that for years, not since it came out. That was released in 1999. And Chris Smith, the director of that film, he was on the podcast talking about Jim and

• 1:04:59Adam Buxton?

  Andy, the documentary he made about Jim Carrey playing Andy Kaufman. And he's also directed a load of other excellent documentaries. He directed a great documentary about Wham! that's on Netflix that I really recommend. That came out last year, in fact, and that will really put a smile on your face, I think. And American Movie, yeah, I'd forgotten, that's a beautiful film. Chris Smith and Sarah Price, they spent two years documenting the making of Marc Borchardt's short film, Coven, or Covin', as he calls it. He's an American independent movie maker and it's a film all about ambition and friendship

• 1:05:41Adam Buxton?

  and perseverance and overcoming creative and financial challenges. And it's so lovely and inspiring and funny and ridiculous. Thank you very much, Richard, for those. Now here's a recommendation from brilliant comedian and Taskmaster creator Alex Horn.

• 1:06:06Adam Buxton?

  Hello Adam.

• 1:06:09Adam Buxton?

  I would really recommend a movie called Next Goal Wins. I found it really uplifting when I watched it on an aeroplane recently. I think it was written by Taika Waititi and Ian, who did the in-betweeners. I've since been told that the documentary is much better. It's about a football team in the Pacific Islands who don't normally do very well. But you've guessed it, in this movie they do quite well. In this movie they do quite well. And it makes you feel good.

• 1:06:50Adam Buxton?

  Next Goal Wins. Thank you very much, Alex's musical recommendation, beautiful. Next Goal Wins, that is the dramatized version of a documentary that was released in 2014. So the one that Alex was talking about was directed by Taika Waititi,

• 1:07:11Adam Buxton?

  who I'm sure many of you will know, directed Hunt for the Wilderpeople. That is another film that will definitely provide some uplift, I would say. I haven't seen Next Goal Wins, either Taika Waititi's version of it or the documentary version, which coincidentally was also recommended by, well, actually, someone who hasn't been on the podcast yet, but he's definitely a listener and a friend of the podcast and I hope he will get on here at some point. It's great comedian, great guy, star of Stafflet's Flats, brother of Tash Demetriou. It's Jamie Demetriou.

• 1:07:50Speaker 04

  The documentary Next Goal Wins by Mike Brett and Steve Jamison is my instinctive response when anyone asks for an uplifting film. It's about the American Samoan football team who received the highest battering in the history of national football, 31-0 against Australia. To this day, it's the only film that I've ever reached the credits of and then just immediately clicked the button that takes you back to the beginning of the film to watch it again. And then after the second time, I did the same thing again. So I suppose the only thing that wasn't uplifting about it was me worrying that there was something wrong with me, that I was willing to watch this documentary for about four and a half hours on the drop.

• 1:08:31Adam Buxton?

  There we go. That is high praise from Jamie. I've got to watch that film, Next Goal Wins. Finally, in this inaugural roundup of uplifting movie recommendations on the podcast, it's a text one, and this is from someone that I have recorded a podcast with, but it's, we're still waiting on a few clearance issues to be resolved, but it is musician Kim Deal of Pixies and The Breeders. Her album, Nobody Loves You More, comes out towards the end of this month, November twenty twenty four, and I asked Kim for some recommendations for uplifting

• 1:09:12Adam Buxton?

  movies, and she texted back and said, uplifting, um, when I'm depressed, I like jump scares, I like screaming, no, while my fingers are stretched out in front of my face. I did this during the whole pandemic with my sister on FaceTime, and it worked wonders. It really elevated my mood. I'll be doing this again a lot. Here are some for you to try with your family and friends. So she's gone for horror movies. That's how Kim Deal is uplifted, and her picks are The Omen, directed by Richard Donner, nineteen seventy six. That's a classic.

• 1:09:54Adam Buxton?

  But to be clear, it is a horror film. It's about the son of Satan, and it's, you know, not what everyone would consider uplifting. She also recommends Smile Two, directed by Charlie Sarroff. That came out this year. I haven't seen that one, and I've heard people saying, it's even better than Smile One, which I also haven't seen. About to embark on a new world tour, global pop sensation Sky Riley begins to experience increasingly terrifying and inexplicable events. Overwhelmed by the escalating horrors and pressures of fame, she must face her dark past to regain control of her life before it spirals out

• 1:10:35Adam Buxton?

  of control. That's Smile Two. So that's where I'm going to leave the movie recommendations this week. That's probably way too many. We'll streamline the idea if we continue with it. I've got a few more, like loads of people came back to me. So I will share some of those with you over the coming weeks in the outros. But that's it for this week from here in glamorous East London. Thank you very much indeed, once again to Patrick Gagne. Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his production support, conversation editing, and general greatness. Thanks to Helen Green, she does the beautiful illustration for this podcast.

• 1:11:16Adam Buxton?

  Thanks to all at Acast who continue to work hard, keeping the show on the road with my sponsors. But thanks most of all to you for listening, for coming back, you listen right to the end again, thanks, you're the best, you're the, you, you are the best one of the listeners. The others, ah, they, you know, they say they like the podcast, but do they really? I was talking to a friend of mine this week, and he was saying that he'd seen some guy say, "Oh yeah, I used to like Adam Buxton's podcast, but then I, I listened to the Robbie Williams episode, and I didn't like the way he treated Robbie on that one." I thought he had some good bounce me and Robbie, but maybe it was uncomfortable. You never know what's gonna turn people off.

• 1:12:01Adam Buxton?

  But you guys, you've stuck with me through thick and thin, and I appreciate it. Now, I'm gonna risk looking a little bit crazy surrounded by the groovers here outside Rough Trade, give you a hug. Hey. Good to see you. Until next time we're together, I'm obviously not gonna shout at the top of my voice out here, cuz I'm, I'm too weedy, so take care. And for what it's worth, I love you. Bye.