Where Are the Netflix Viewers Going? Plus, ‘Slow Horses’ Season 6 Finale and ‘The Lowdown’ Season 2, Episode 3.

Chris and Andy talk about the Bloomberg report that revealed that Netflix subscribers are spending less time on the platform and the potential reasons for that shift (2:40). Later, they discuss the ‘Slow Horses’ Season 6 finale (24:47) and ‘The Lowdown’ Season 2, Episode 3 (39:34). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Follow us on IG and TikTok! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Trevor Rabone Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tremfya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremfya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremfya, proper training is required. Tremfya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis, serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tremfya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit tremfyaradio.com.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  Observe. The North American Dad. 50s, great polo collection. He enters his vehicle information on Carvana. An offer appears in minutes. Remarkable. He squints, reads it again, smiles and says, dang, that's a good offer. The highest form of approval. No haggling, no hassle. No one called him boss. He's still on the couch. Astonishing. Sell your car today on carvana.com. Pickup fees may apply.

• 1:35Speaker 02

  I need sports staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

• 1:41Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. Joining me on the other line, where it is Autumn in New York. It's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:53Andy Greenwald?

  Autumn in New York. I've had a real Winona Ryder-type weekend.

• 1:56Chris Ryan?

  What's that mean? You've shoplifted?

• 1:58Andy Greenwald?

  Doesn't she die in that film?

• 1:59Chris Ryan?

  Oh, spoilers for Autumn in New York, which I don't think I've ever actually seen. Thanks a lot, man.

• 2:04Andy Greenwald?

  You have no idea. You just thought it was like a lovely seasonal glimpse of civic life?

• 2:09Chris Ryan?

  You know what the thing is? Is that this season for me is just watching the most depraved horror. So I don't really get a chance to see the more domestic interiority that you're used to with your film going. You know, if we have enough time today, I'd love to hear an update on Andy's adventures in movie going. I know you watched the drama this weekend because they call you cutting-edge Andy for a reason, you know?

• 2:32Andy Greenwald?

  You were experimenting with cutting-edge Greenwald. Then you decided to go for the more familiar first name.

• 2:38Chris Ryan?

  Mid-jump, I was like, should I call him Zeit-Greenwald? Because he's in The Zeitgeist all the time. Really good stuff from me so far today. Andy, you and I are freed from the Philadelphia Eagles. We are out here in the world observing and processing the world of culture and also noting one another's deafening silence on the reelection of Lula in Brazil. So just so you know, I've noted that you have not yet posted to Instagram about that.

• 3:09Andy Greenwald?

  I just think that it's

• 3:11Chris Ryan?

  Your boy lost. Lobia lost. It's OK. Take the L with dignity, man.

• 3:14Andy Greenwald?

  I just have reservations about electing octogenarians. Like, I'm the only one that thinks that, I guess. I guess I'm the asshole. OK, we'll see.

• 3:21Chris Ryan?

  Who's even going to the Amazon anymore? Am I right?

• 3:24Andy Greenwald?

  You have not been silenced. You really had a robust

• 3:27Chris Ryan?

  I'm a big Lula guy.

• 3:29Andy Greenwald?

  From jump, right? Like, from his earliest days.

• 3:31Chris Ryan?

  Which go back way into the 20th century. Today on the pod, a little bit about an interesting report from Bloomberg about Netflix. We're also going to talk about the season finale of the sixth season of Slow Horses and the future of that show and a delightful third episode of the second season of The Lowdown. On Thursday, I believe, I will be discussing Carrie and Crystal Lake with Joe. But we may get an Andy appearance in some shape or form to discuss season, episode four of The Lowdown by then.

• 4:00Andy Greenwald?

  You don't want to hear my thoughts on Carrie and Crystal Lake?

• 4:03Chris Ryan?

  I would love to hear your thoughts as like I couldn't be less interested guy because I just imagine that's the case.

• 4:11Chris Ryan?

  Andy, I want to start with you here. Bloomberg dropped a piece a couple of days ago. Lucas Shaw, who appears frequently on The Town with Matt Bellany, wrote about some interesting behavioral data happening over at Netflix in terms of its users. So here's a quote from Lucas's piece. Netflix incorporated users are watching the streaming service less than they once did. The latest sign of engagement was for the world's most valuable entertainment company, according to people familiar with the matter. Customers aren't opening the app as on as many days of a month as they did a couple of years ago, said the people who asked not to be identified. The company uses a metric known as QPD or Qualified Play Days to measure how often customers use the app. The average customer is also spending

• 4:56Chris Ryan?

  less time watching. While the total time on app increased by a couple of percentage points in the first half of the year, that's because more customers have been added. Each individual is watching less. Now, some caveats go along with this. It's a really good piece. You should read it in Bloomberg if you have a chance. Netflix has cracked down on password sharing. So there is probably some funkiness with the numbers in terms of, you know, it's not families of four or five or people's boyfriends and girlfriends using logins as much. But I do think it speaks to a larger narrative shift and anecdotal kind of evidence in terms of where Netflix is at and where

• 5:40Chris Ryan?

  I'm very curious to talk to you about this because you both have children who would possibly be using the service kind of as it is intended, not only to watch kids programming, but to find library stuff. You have kids who binge and will crush seasons and seasons of television. You yourself are on a television podcast and are known to dip into Netflix. You're also doing some work for Netflix. It's worth being said. But I was curious whether or not this story felt true to you, even if you didn't understand all the QPDs and minutes spent stuff.

• 6:15Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I assume most of the loss of minutes watched and time spent are related to Gilmore Girls going from Netflix to Amazon Prime, which has really hit my household hard in terms of my own representative engagement with the platform. But I mean, I think there's two answers to it. One is my own personal engagement with it, which I think is that tracks with my own experience in terms of the number of shows that I've been watching on Netflix. This is definitely pre-East of Eden, which, you know, got a lot of burn on my various screens. That definitely was appointment viewing for me. But otherwise, it really was becoming something that I would just check more infrequently, really just to see what movies they had, to see if it was something worth watching or even downloading for a plane. But I think this story is more interesting to me

• 7:00Andy Greenwald?

  in the context with which it was reported, which is on the back of all of these changes and helping understand changes on the executive level and helping to understand why Bella Bajariah for content and Dan Lin for movies may have lost their jobs despite and there's been some interesting pushback reporting on this topic as well, meeting all of the goals that were apparently

• 7:24Chris Ryan?

  Doing what they were told to do. Yeah.

• 7:26Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly. Like, that's the more interesting story to me, which is that Bella was brought in to globalize the service. Check. Brought in to widen the breadth of the type of programming they were doing, meaning bringing in reality and bringing in sports and bringing in live events. Check, check, check. And Dan Lin was brought in to, you know, steer away from the chefier, let's say, content that previous film head Scott Stuber was doing and to try to get prices in check and sort of maximize what the service was good for in the films department. And by all accounts, he did that.

• 8:00Andy Greenwald?

  All of this speaks to what we've been sort of trying to find a way to articulate, which is, is it possible that they just want better stuff? Is that there is that that there may be figuring out something that old-school programmers have known for a while, which is be talked about, be a destination. You have to keep the flame burning beyond just the auto-renewal of the credit card month to month to have a service that isn't just like dominant, but vibrant. And I think that's a pretty interesting shift, both for the business and potentially for the culture that we enjoy.

• 8:33Chris Ryan?

  Whether it's intentional or not, I do think it's an indictment on their administrations. I think that there are, to me, two kinds of Netflix users. There's those who go because they have something specific in mind that they're looking for. So they're going because somebody said, you got to watch East of Eden or you have to watch Stranger Things or you have to watch Three Body Problem or whatever. And I think that, as we have documented on this podcast over the years, there have been fewer and fewer appointment viewing reasons to go to Netflix for scripted television. People may obviously be going for Thanksgiving football games and for wrestling matches and for comedy stand-up specials and roasts or what have you. But in terms of like our bread and butter,

• 9:17Chris Ryan?

  scripted sort of prestige-leaning television, that's why you would go somewhere. And if you feel like not only I haven't heard about anything, you also are not like you spend a couple of years being like, there's nothing dependable that I know is going to be there. Then it starts to all look kind of like static when you open up the app because there's so much there. You'll randomly see some show from, you know, ABC Family from 20 years ago is in the top 10. And then there's like three reality shows. And you're just kind of like, this is a morass. Like, I feel like I'm looking at cable again because it's just reruns and reality and sports. The other kind of user, I think, goes to Netflix as television.

• 10:02Chris Ryan?

  And they opened up the app as the way, the same way that you and I used to flip on the television when we got home from school or when we got home from work to have like a nightlight kind of, you know, hear Craig Kilborn do SportsCenter in the background while we like made dinner or something like that. And that is the one that is the indictment here. Because if that's, if my hypothesis about these two kinds of users is true, that means that there's been enough of a negative experience for those people that they aren't turning the app on like that anymore. Now, perhaps there could be any number of reasons around this. There could be increased competition from Max and some of the other services. Amazon has obviously

• 10:44Chris Ryan?

  had a really nice year in terms of having a bunch of YA shows that have been more or less watercooler. You can say that, oh, I don't know. I mean, sports are back. You could say that any, movies are back. You could say that people are going to see more movies in theaters these days. There's all sorts of reasons why that might be the case. But for the most part, I think it's probably just in a form of attrition where people are like, you know, I keep turning this thing on and I keep not being satisfied with what I find. And furthermore, they keep taking my shows off, whether it's they lose the library titles or they've canceled shows that I was like, well, where's season three or four of this? And so I think they have a little bit of work to do to rebuild this because as we both

• 11:26Chris Ryan?

  know, the pipeline doesn't just, you don't just turn the water on and off. It takes a minute to get quality back into the system, to get big shows, good shows, appointment shows back on the air.

• 11:36Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, so much of what Netflix did was about what it did differently in opposition to the way we previously understood television or prestige television to be and how it operated and how we received it. And I do think in moments like this about how, and the biggest caveat of like, obviously, we are who we are, the age that we are, we like TV a certain way. But I don't think it's completely unrepresentative of the type of viewer that they have traditionally tried to court and still want in their corner, which is to say that like scarcity still is a great driver of urgency, meaning the desire to keep up with shows that we are passionate about, whether it was like the last season of Succession, or whether it's industry, or even something like Lanterns, is still driven by the once a week, you better

• 12:20Andy Greenwald?

  watch it when you can, and you build the enthusiasm to be part of it while it is happening. And you have to be a pretty spectacular zeitgeist grabbing show on Netflix to have the same effect, I think, because otherwise you're just left with the complete binary of they're the people who watch it all in one night or the people who watch it when they watch it. And I think that Netflix's previous idea was that it would be equally valuable to, to, you know, for HBO to harvest its type of weekly viewer, but for them to just have the forever viewer. But I do think that puts them at a disadvantage in a cultural moment when it is just so very hard and getting harder to grab the spotlight. I was thinking about two shows on Netflix that I like, and I use that word very intentionally, which

• 13:03Andy Greenwald?

  is to say it's not Slow Horses where I can't wait to watch the next one. And those shows would be The Gentleman, which we talked about briefly this year, and Nobody Wants This, which just returned for its third season. These are both shows that I like. When I watch them, I am enjoying things about them. I find them pleasurable. I find them comforting or, you know, disturbing and alarming and comforting in the case of The Gentleman. Neither show lights a fire under me, though, in terms of I gotta watch it within a certain schedule. Both shows exist for me as things that I know I could turn to when football is over for the day.

• 13:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 13:40Andy Greenwald?

  Or when I have a flight coming up or something. And that is a good service for the consumer, but I don't know if that is a market mover or a market sustainer when you have the ambitions and also the stressful stock situation that Netflix does. I think you need to feel urgent in a way that they have not.

• 14:00Chris Ryan?

  You know, I've been having this dialogue with Sean and Amanda on the big picture for the better part of a couple of months now, maybe, maybe most of 2026. And it's, you know, not even that involved, but it's kind of like knowing that the conch has been passed from TV to movies in terms of when I come into the offices, people are usually talking about the movie that they saw this weekend, or the movie that they can't wait to come out. So like, even something like Clayface seems to be getting looky-loos who are like, that's the biggest movie in the country? And like, oh, is that the new DC movie? And should I check that out? I like horror movies. And I just haven't heard that in a while anecdotally about TV. TV seems to be more like this weird, private behavioral

• 14:43Chris Ryan?

  thing where people are like, oh, yeah. And then I randomly just watched two seasons of Blue Lights on Amazon. You know what I mean? Like, it's,

• 14:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 14:50Chris Ryan?

  It's all like weird, super niche, super unique individual behavior, not collective.

• 14:57Andy Greenwald?

  This is like, okay, so this really is, I know we use this analogy all the time, but the Thomas Friedman column about being in a taxi cab in Karachi and assuming that that extrapolates some deep wisdom about the universe. But I will say that since being back in New York and seeing old friends and having, you know, nice dinners with people and things, people who are not just not in the industry that we're in, but also on the other side of the country, inevitably, there is a part in adult dinner conversations, certainly over the age of 40, where people are like, what have you been watching?

• 15:26Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 15:26Andy Greenwald?

  Or what do you like these days? And I will tell you that the conversation in the last two weeks, tiny sample size, has been almost identical in that people talk about Slow Horses and everyone talks about how amazing it is and how great it is.

• 15:38Chris Ryan?

  But they haven't watched the new season.

• 15:40Andy Greenwald?

  No, they've watched it. No, they're up on it.

• 15:42Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 15:42Andy Greenwald?

  And then, and then there's a pause, and then someone will say something like, do you know what I really liked on Netflix was The Audacity? I'm like, excuse me? Like, no disrespect to The Audacity, but that's an AMC original that migrated to Netflix relatively recently and is benefiting, as it deserves to, by being on the front page of Netflix. But that is not representative necessarily of like a culture driver in the way even Clayface is. That's like you had an experience engaging with something that is very specific to you. And whether it's, and if it's The Audacity or your point about like, well, I like Blue Lights or I've been checking out BritBox, like, it gets diffuse really quickly.

• 16:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 16:21Andy Greenwald?

  I totally agree with you. What, what do you think then with this context of like, so these, this is really the driver of these big, big Netflix changes. And there were some rumors out today that, that the Peter Rice, who's now taking over content at Netflix, that that relationship with Ted Sarandos began actually a year ago when, and this is, this is like a thousand years ago in media time, but there was a moment almost exactly a year ago when it seemed like Netflix was going to win Warner Brothers. And that the conversation with Peter Rice dates back to then, when, when Netflix was saying, Peter Rice, would you like to come manage these assets for us? And then they stayed communicating for a while after that. And now we just ended up taking over the whole thing. Do you feel

• 17:02Andy Greenwald?

  like there is a path to success in this? Or is it a weird moment in which old school Hollywood logic is now going to have to be applied to these new media tech companies, which are historically have been very, very, very antagonistic to the idea of being part of a business in which you can't control everything, in which quality is going to be actually the thing that gets you over the top and you can't quantify that on a spreadsheet?

• 17:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And I think quality is relative. I think that, that things that, that you and I might revere, other people find boring and things that other people think is quality, we might find a little bit rote or whatever. But, you know, I've seen other reporting that's like, don't get your hopes up about like the Peter Rice era being, you know, of, of, of challenge to HBO Sunday Night prestige kind of TV, that it might be more about fixing relationships within the town and ironing out some, some wrinkles in the clothing rather than like building a whole new suit. I wonder how long, I wonder if

• 18:11Chris Ryan?

  in a year, we're having this conversation about Netflix breaking away from binge. And I wonder if in a year, we're having a conversation about Netflix significantly starting to explore theatrical releases, releases for movies. Because I do think that there are decades and decades of behavioral patterns that show that this wasn't just a way to stretch things out and to make money on advertising, that this is actually how these stories should be interpreted. And this is actually the best way to write these things is to not have to have the whole thing completely finished and uploaded and never to be touched again. And, you know, I, I don't think, I don't think Succession was still being written

• 18:54Chris Ryan?

  as it went, as it shot and while it was airing. But there, there are plenty of experiences where people were still editing.

• 19:01Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I'll push back there. I mean, Succession, they were finding it on the day. I mean, they also employed certainly at least one actor who really liked to just sort of, you know, do a little improv on set. But, but they were editing and shaping it as it went on.

• 19:14Chris Ryan?

  I, I mean, like, once Succession was airing, it's not like they were still shooting the way they would with like SVU and a season of SVU where they're like, episode three is airing and we're shooting episode 18, you know, or whatever it is. So,

• 19:27Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, right. No, that's right.

• 19:29Chris Ryan?

  I just think that, I think that there are, there are truths that are non- Commercial, not financially based, that I think Netflix might want to explore and might eventually have to get back to. And I think if you have something as significant as Stranger Things, they've basically gotten to this place anyway by doing like three tranches of releases for the last season of that show. But if they ever get their hands on another big ticket, that level of blockbuster, to have that be over in one day for a lot of people, or two days, that's just a waste of eyeballs. Like, you could have had a month of conversation and a month of people coming back to the service. And

• 20:12Chris Ryan?

  after they finished that episode of Stranger Things, what else is there to watch right now? And I just think they have to get back to some sort of basic practices like that.

• 20:21Andy Greenwald?

  Especially when you are in an ecosystem in which to make a show like that, it takes two to three years to get a season on the air. And then you burn it all in a weekend, is not good economics, said by someone who really knows nothing about economics. I would also say, the other news story, just to point out, it's not nearly as big of a surprise or big of a headline, but our pal Casey Boyes announced his leadership team for Paramount. And, surprise, he did change it himself. It's his own leadership team, which, first of all, makes a lot of sense. Jane Wiseman, who was in her position as head of content programming for Paramount, has departed. And many people at Paramount are, for now anyway,

• 21:04Andy Greenwald?

  keeping their jobs, but they are now reporting under previously established HBO hierarchy, which is Casey at the top, it's Amy Grabit for comedy, it's Francesca Orsi for drama, and it's Sarah Aubrey for the Max originals. And I think it's interesting. I mean, this is a team that has proven, not only that they can work well together, as they have for many years, but that they can kind of grow their core competency of like, high quality across different types of shows now. Like, the HBO leadership team of 10 years ago, well, it was kind of this leadership team, okay, so of 20 years ago, I don't know if they would have even wanted to say, like, can we make a good DC original? And can we

• 21:47Andy Greenwald?

  make a good family drama for, you know, a more of a broadcast type sensibility, which is what they're doing with that upcoming Ray Romano show? This group has done all those things. So it'll be interesting to see how they apply that to Paramount. And it's also interesting to think about that in relation to what Netflix is. Netflix had not really been worried about what other people were doing, because they were the everything app. And maybe now they are going to have to deal with the spread of other streamers in the interim, having figured it out, what they are good at, how to do it, and how to professionalize, so they can compete on a show to show basis, if not a market share to market share basis.

• 22:26Chris Ryan?

  Well, that's the other thing that has been heavily suggested by Sarandos and others, as they've done their earnings reports and talked about the future of the services. This idea of Netflix shifting to become more of an open platform, where you can watch Peacock on there, and you can start to use it the way people use Prime Video, where they could sign up for NBA League Pass, and Paramount Plus, and HBO through Amazon. I have to say, I mean, since we're just two guys talking here, I'm starting to get closer to wanting to do that. I have traditionally kept all my services separate. Like, I'll shut down-

• 23:07Andy Greenwald?

  You're not a bundler.

• 23:08Chris Ryan?

  It's not that I don't bundle, it's just that I will go out of Amazon to go watch Max, or I will go out of Max to go watch Peacock. You know, I don't, I haven't canceled my stuff and then re-signed up for it through one service, because that's what you have to do. You can't just like, link Peacock with Amazon Plus, or Amazon Prime. But I am, because of sports, and because of basketball specifically, I watch NBA through Amazon Prime. That's where I think League Pass is available, maybe it's on YouTube too. But I've just been like, on Amazon Prime so much, that I don't want to keep shutting down my stuff every time I have to like, change over to regular TV or whatever, or watch Reggie

• 23:50Chris Ryan?

  Dinkens. So, it's kind of, it's kind of an interesting moment, where I wonder whether or not I'm going to start shifting my user experience. Watch this space. You know, this is what you guys come for.

• 24:01Andy Greenwald?

  Really interesting. Do you think that you're going to get approached by the Apple TV? People being like, you know, we-

• 24:06Chris Ryan?

  Well, do you do everything through Apple?

• 24:09Andy Greenwald?

  No, I am completely chaos menu. Like, I actually only recently learned that I was subscribed to services like Starz and BritBox still through my Apple account. I was just, I was just doing a little, what do they call it? Like, a little financial, not autopsy, but a little like, diagnostic about, there's some leaks here, I'm noticing.

• 24:31Chris Ryan?

  Power, colon, ghosts? I'm paying for that?

• 24:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. I'm keeping that whole power franchise alive.

• 24:37Chris Ryan?

  I'm waiting for them to finish the story before I get into it, yeah.

• 24:40Andy Greenwald?

  It reminds me of when I joined New York Sports Club in like, on like, a Hangover Sunday once, in like, 2002.

• 24:48Chris Ryan?

  Time to commit to fitness and wellbeing.

• 24:50Andy Greenwald?

  And then, and then found out that I had been a loyal member. I think, I think there's like, a plaque with my name on it, like, one brick of their new lobby, at their facility in Park Slope. And it took me about six years to realize that I had done that.

• 25:02Chris Ryan?

  I'm in that relationship with TD-

• 25:04Andy Greenwald?

  I'm a silent benefactor.

• 25:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I'm in that relationship with TD Bank. I have like, $2 in TD Bank from when I lived in Boston. And every year, I get a letter from Mr. TD being like, sir, sir, please, it costs us more to digitally house these $2. Please just close your account. And I'm just like, yeah, I'm letting that, I'm letting that baby just accrue with interest.

• 25:32Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. I think I also, I think I have a savings account with $8.63 in it, and I'm like, what? I'm saving it.

• 25:40Chris Ryan?

  I think I still have, I mean, because you remember how in Philly, the main banks, like, changed hands five times in seven years?

• 25:46Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:48Chris Ryan?

  So I think I still have like, a Wachovia something that is no longer in existence.

• 25:54Andy Greenwald?

  I think, well, let's run it back. Like, I think Beneficial Bank was with the first Mac machines, or was that Fidelity? And then they, and then they became Wachovia-

• 26:04Chris Ryan?

  And there was USFS, or US, what was the, there was something in Philly that was like, that was my Mac. Good stuff. Really good podcast.

• 26:13Andy Greenwald?

  This is good. I think this has been really good so far.

• 26:16Speaker 05

  This episode is brought to you by NASA Energy. Every ounce of dirt, sweat, and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised, every lap, every race, every hard fought place. They're all jammed inside every can of NASA Energy. High-performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage, and pedal to the metal, human horsepower for the streets. Go ahead, crack open a can of NASA Energy and get after it. This episode is brought to you by Panda Express. Telling someone you love them, it isn't always easy, but showing them through food, sometimes that's better than words, especially when that food's wok-cooked at Panda Express, a Joe House favorite. Pick from delicious classics, like orange chicken, honey walnut shrimp, kung pao chicken, and black pepper

• 27:01Speaker 05

  sirloin steak. Perfect for when you're watching the team you love, or eating with the person you love. Have you eaten yet? Click or tap the banner to order, or visit a Panda Express near you. This episode is brought to you by Viori. When it comes to clothes that score high in both comfort and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday performance joggers, oh yeah. They have the perfect, I could watch a game and then go out to dinner vibe. And the Meta Pant, that's my number one, I need to look like I tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at Viori.com/Simmons, and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. This episode is brought to you by Major League Baseball. There is nowhere left to

• 27:42Speaker 05

  go. Two teams, one championship. Watch the World Series. Yeah, the World Series, presented by Capital One, on Fox and Fox One. No time like October. Visit MLB.com/Postseason to learn more.

• 27:57Chris Ryan?

  Let's talk about the finale of Slow Horses, which we were delinquent in doing so last week. I want to get your thoughts. I feel like I've been living with this for a minute, or I've been, you know, I've been kind of, I've been living with this conclusion. Obviously, now I think that my insistence that this was a much darker season of the show kind of makes sense. I wanted to know, for you, let's go, spoilers, full, full, full green light here. If you haven't watched the sixth episode of the fifth season, sixth season?

• 28:26Andy Greenwald?

  Sixth season.

• 28:27Chris Ryan?

  Please do so. I actually have not watched the next season on Slow Horses yet. I forgot to. But what did you think of the very ending, which involved what would, could be a coin toss moment for the life and death of River Cartwright?

• 28:47Andy Greenwald?

  I loved it. I mean, I unambiguously loved the season. I gotta tell you, like, it is, everything about this show is unprecedented, but I don't know of many shows that have completely, that have both confidently and completely changed my emotional viewing language so expertly, in the sense that by the time last season came around, I watched it from a very comfortable, leaning back posture of like, nothing here can surprise me. It could potentially delight me, but I am not really concerned about the well-being of my favorite characters and my stories,

• 29:28Andy Greenwald?

  the way that I would be on a different type of series. And then this finale was absolutely screaming with tension with like, there was no way to lean back while watching this episode, not just the very end of it. It was breathless with possibility and quite dangerous possibility. And that's a very hard thing for any show to conjure up, let alone a show in its sixth season. So I thought it was really, really exciting. And the only thing, if you want to start from the ending, I will say that the only problem is, is that you and I and probably everyone who listens to a podcast like this, just simply watches too much stuff

• 30:10Andy Greenwald?

  now. So the visual language of a scene in which something bad is going to happen is just so, so apparent.

• 30:16Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 30:17Andy Greenwald?

  That, you know, I, what surprised me was Chekhov's crowbar. The fact that River ended up potentially dying in the last moments did not surprise me, because when you show up at a house to surprise someone who is a trained assassin, or at least spy and potential assassin, with a romantic candlelight dinner, I just assumed she was going to shoot him. So I was wrong.

• 30:41Chris Ryan?

  You were blaming Sid and not the Russians? Or are you thinking that they're one in the same?

• 30:46Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, no, no, no. I was just assuming, I knew peril was coming.

• 30:50Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 30:50Andy Greenwald?

  I knew that River was going to be in trouble here, but I assumed it was because he didn't alert the super spy currently showering that he was a friend in the house. I don't blame her for the placement of the crowbar. And well, I guess you could blame her for not tidying up.

• 31:04Chris Ryan?

  I thought that that scene was like indicative of this show's subtle growth in that, you know, you get this moment, and there was something about the selection of the Nick Drake song for him pulling up to the house that was like, this feels different. Doesn't feel like he's about to have a romantic reunion and get what he wants and get what we all want him to have, and have this beautiful like moment with Sid. This seems more like a funereal moment, or something ominous, and which is like, it's testament to, I think needle drops are a little over exercised in modern television, but that did something where you're like, God, this is beautiful, but this is also very sad, and it's a little

• 31:48Chris Ryan?

  bit unnerving. Like, what is this song communicating? And what is this moment communicating? I believe earlier in the season Sid had said something about meeting him at his grandfather's or something like that. And like, you know, because it has some fucking Cameron Crowe juice to it. You want, you want, like, you complete me here. And yeah, I just thought even as soon as Adam Randle takes the camera off the tripod, and we start lurking around that house handheld, you just are like, this is ominous. And that's another indication of this show's growth, and also like, just the way it's communicating what it wants on a sort of sub-tutaneous level is just making us feel uneasy with camera work in

• 32:29Chris Ryan?

  a moment that could also be romantic or a moment to be comic. It's like, you know, when he gets into that house, it's just not right. And I thought it was, it was really well done in that way.

• 32:40Andy Greenwald?

  Adam Randle should get talked about more. Like, this is one of the best directed seasons of TV in recent memory. It is stunning, in terms of exactly what you're saying, the way the camera is communicating mood and anxiety and point of view, but also the way the camera is just capturing beautiful fucking images.

• 32:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 32:56Andy Greenwald?

  Just almost effortlessly.

• 32:57Chris Ryan?

  The whole shootout is just so well done. Yeah.

• 33:01Andy Greenwald?

  But this is also the season that had the stunning images of the box park where Struan is living in the beginning, and the way that the, the location that they chose for Diana's house, and how it fits in with the landscape and doesn't fit in with the landscape and the windows. I mean, the whole thing is gorgeous. And yes, the end is setting us up for something, but also, the way the show has been able to revel in slow building of character and the slow development of flavor, still has surprised me. That there was a moment last season when River was stuck doing for the 19th time, the, well, why don't you just tell me what's going, like, he's just, you know, frustrated with his situation. And you begin to think that his point of view is the right one, which is that he is

• 33:46Andy Greenwald?

  really, really good and just constantly being held back. What this season did was complicate that in interesting ways. He is a sin eater. His, what keeps happening to his hand is so vicious and awful and punishing, and he just keeps getting back up. And at no point, though, do you get the sense that he is particularly clever. He's just particularly dogged. And that kind of is what is his undoing here, you know, that he still doesn't quite have the nuance of it. He just has a kind of a hero narrative for himself. And again, to sort of develop that with your main character or reveal it this deep in was really remarkable.

• 34:25Andy Greenwald?

  The version of Roddy Ho that was on, that was, that took the lead in season five, that within one season, you could get the version of Roddy Ho that has a wordless response to Flight's death, and then the next time you see him, he's playing a shooting video game in Slough House, but without saying anything more, you understand why he is doing it. Usually, shows turn up the volume over time, and people become caricatures, more, more caricatures of themselves. And I think that was definitely the case in season five. Rarely do shows course correct or lower the temperature on things, the way this show did this season.

• 35:01Chris Ryan?

  Let's talk a little bit about Flight's death, which is brutal. And by that point in the, in the action set piece, you, you almost are like, this seems like too, too much? Like, you could have escaped without executing her? I thought it was just a real, real masterstroke. Obviously, in the books, the, the trajectory of that character is mapped out. McCarran had published nine, nine Slow Horses books, I believe, with some novellas in there. Clown Town is the most recent one in 2025. I haven't read that far. I've spoiled a little bit of parts about the future of this group for myself, intentionally

• 35:44Chris Ryan?

  and unintentionally. But with Flight, I actually didn't know that that happened to her. So that was a gut punch, especially as that character was just sort of like, Flight's gonna join the Slow Horses? This is awesome. You know what I mean? Like, they needed somebody to replace Co. It makes sense, like, blah, blah, blah. And instead, you got, you got a team that's got a injured reserve longer than the Eagles.

• 36:09Andy Greenwald?

  That hurts. Yeah, I mean, I did see the next season thing, and I will say that it is very Shirley heavy.

• 36:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 36:15Andy Greenwald?

  Because the next season thing did not confirm or deny whether Jack Lowdown is on the show anymore. Like, that, that's a very classic, you know, next episode, next season thing to do.

• 36:23Chris Ryan?

  They're waiting for Denis Villeneuve to tell them whether it's okay.

• 36:26Andy Greenwald?

  Whether he's available or not. They, there aren't enough people on the show anymore. I will say that. I did think that we were going to merge from this season with someone emerging or joining the team. And it's one of those things where like, you can admire the ballsiness of it, but also, it would have been a great story if she had joined. I mean, I think, I was with you. I was like, this isn't actually an exciting place for the actor to go. It's an exciting dynamic to introduce to the room, someone who is clearly.

• 36:52Chris Ryan?

  That even made sense. Taverner wouldn't want her out, like, in the private sector. She knows too much. She's been too intimately linked to Taverner. She's got so many skeletons in her closet. Like, just let her while away her days at Slough House. But yeah.

• 37:07Andy Greenwald?

  But the book, I mean, I did do, we were cautioned about this by people, and I, so I did look into the plot of Joe Country, the book, and it's really remarkable. Like, it is wildly divergent. There are pieces that they used, but they did not just one to one adapt the book. So it is remarkably nimble.

• 37:26Chris Ryan?

  It's two books for this season, though, right?

• 37:27Andy Greenwald?

  It's two books, but the plots were sort of

• 37:30Chris Ryan?

  Frankenstein.

• 37:30Andy Greenwald?

  Half from one, half from another, and kind of Frankenstein together in a way that I thought was really clearly paid off and was quite exciting. But I do think that I have been guilty, having not really, having not read the books, of giving almost too much credit to McCarran's books themselves, and then thinking of people like Will Smith and the current showrunner, whose name is gonna escape me.

• 37:49Chris Ryan?

  Gabby Chiapi.

• 37:49Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I'm trying to talk, Gabby Chiapi, who deserves all the flowers here. I've given them more credit as like, train conductors, as opposed to creatives in their own right. And that is clearly not the case. To be able to have all of these strands going, and then to, whether it made sense while it was happening or not, make it quite clear who did what and why in the final episode. Now, do I understand why Frank was at that funeral? No. But I don't really care about that. The, ultimately, the, this is, you know, it gave, I don't fault the show for being overly complicated, especially a spy show, when you find room for one of the main characters to plausibly explain what has just happened, as, which

• 38:32Andy Greenwald?

  is what Jackson does at the child's birthday party. So once we got there, I was like, oh, okay. Well, someone knew what was going on, and at least they told us.

• 38:39Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 38:40Andy Greenwald?

  And from that point, the action unfolds. They get to the church at the end, and there's the good Louisa fake out. Why are they going to the church? Okay, she's fine. I mean, she's not fine, but she's alive. I did read that they did multiple takes, or at least an additional take, in which they drank a shot for everyone who died this season.

• 39:01Chris Ryan?

  Oh, but they would have been drunk.

• 39:02Andy Greenwald?

  And then decided that, A, they would have been drunk, but B, it was like, simpler to the idea that like, they do a shot in memory of all the people they can't actually mourn because they were undercover or whatever. But then they did have Shirley say, for Co, which then made it me feel it was kind of mean. Like, I feel like it's either for everyone or it's not. You know what I mean?

• 39:20Chris Ryan?

  So it would have been for Co, for Flight. For men.

• 39:23Andy Greenwald?

  For the two that died.

• 39:25Chris Ryan?

  Oh, and for Stru and Loy.

• 39:26Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, all the ones who died this season. Stru and Loy and the woman who we never actually knew who was on the boat.

• 39:30Chris Ryan?

  Uh, yeah, I mean, I think Co was like, had saved their lives a couple of times and was more present in their life. But yeah, it's, it's interesting that they didn't do like an entire, like, for all those who have served under Jackson Lamb's cloud of farts, like, we salute you.

• 39:49Andy Greenwald?

  What I said about River goes for Lamb as well, that like, this season, he was a lot more, to me, human. And I don't mean in terms of like emotional, I just mean like, there was more to him than being smarter than everyone. There was a sense of like, you know, the, the larger history of the person and his feelings about sacrifice. And also, not always being front footed by, about everything, that things, events were playing out beyond his control.

• 40:20Chris Ryan?

  Beyond Jackson's.

• 40:20Andy Greenwald?

  And he was getting updated on them. Beyond, yes, like even when he's like, get Co in there and they're like, he didn't make it. Like, that seems a little bit more plausible than previous versions of Jackson Lamb, which have basically predicted the future in terms of however everyone was going to behave and he knew it all along.

• 40:34Chris Ryan?

  And he would also come in and say, I am the one who sent you on that wild goose chase to prove a point or to draw out something. It just seemed like he was almost omniscient in maybe seasons four and five. Uh, Jackson's very interesting. By far, the thing that you see many people say is that their favorite Jackson Lamb moment is his story about Berlin days, getting feet burned off and whether or not that was his story or some other person's story. And I think it speaks to a desire for a little bit of interiority from somebody who is entirely surface, you know, is entirely, uh, external with his, his thoughts and emotions

• 41:15Chris Ryan?

  and behaviors and whatever, because he doesn't care what people think of him. Um, if indeed, we are in the back nine, if not the back five or back three of this series, you know, they have seven coming, eight has been renewed, uh, Lowdown is up for Bond, also they've caught up to the books. Um, I, I'm very curious to see where they go with all the characters. You know, first of all, I don't know whether or not with eight, if that's, if seven is clown town, which it might be, whether eight would be for a yet to be published Mick Aaron book, and whether or not that will be tied together in any way. But yeah, like, I think

• 41:59Chris Ryan?

  that people probably are ready for some movement in Jackson Lamb's, uh, preeminence. Like, is it, is it that he wants to go for first desk? Or is it that he wants to retire? Like, I, I don't know. It seems like, how long can this man just sit here and eat Chinese food and, and, and have gas?

• 42:20Andy Greenwald?

  Is this show built to be a forever ongoing, or was there always some larger serialized canonical story that it was telling about these people? And is it steering towards any kind of conclusion?

• 42:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, or would you want to do the ER version of this show where it's a whole new set of doctors, you know, and it's maybe Mark Green is still there, and in this case, that would be Jackson, but like, you get a whole new set of, of horses. Let's talk about the lowdown before we get out of here. I feel the plunger hit, and it just makes me feel warm and happy all over to watch this show, man. Spoilers for episode three, to the extent that there are any, I can give you a rundown of the plot synopsis, but this episode opens up with Ethan Hawke wandering the Oklahoma night and getting picked up in a van by a mysterious driver, uh, played by Steve Earle, plays a guy named Dale, who seems to be a sober guardian angel for the barflies of Tulsa. And I'm like, what the

• 43:12Chris Ryan?

  fuck is going on, man? This is like, this is just like all the things I'm interested in are happening on this show. And it just keeps getting deeper and better. Uh, this felt the most like they had hit the equilibrium between a fantastic short story where a character can pop up for two pages and a great, deep novel that's connected to a much larger, you know, archaeological dig of Oklahoma underworld. Uh, what did you think of this episode?

• 43:46Andy Greenwald?

  I think the show is elevating. I think the show is finding a gear that I don't know if we expected it to. I think we hoped that it would. I don't know if the people who made it understood that it could, but it has. Like, if you are listening to us and you have not invested in the show or engaged with it, and you did, or even if you engaged with it and you didn't love the first season, please watch this season. The show has taken a massive, massive, massive leap, and it is an absolute joy to watch. And I'm not just saying that, we'll always use this caveat. I'm not just saying that because Sterling Herjo clearly loves 80% of the same things that we love in terms of movies and music and culture and what we want out of these programs that we dedicate

• 44:28Andy Greenwald?

  so much of our lives to. I, I kind of can't shake the feeling that season one was, was constructed to make a case for the show that they ultimately wanted to make, which doesn't mean that I'm saying you Trojan horse anything, but season one built this like, um, uh, like rogues' gallery of evil demigods, you know, whether it was Kyle McLaughlin's character or Tracy Letts' character, like really big, over the top, how deep does this thing go? How high does this thing go? Conspiracy theory stuff. This season has relaxed into a story that feels at once more intimate, but also kind of more crackly and alive. And within that new structure, it's not just that in one episode, you get the Steve Earle

• 45:12Andy Greenwald?

  scene that you're talking about, which was so haunting and bizarre and great, but you also get another, another scene of Ethan Hawke and Tommy Lee Jones acting their asses off with real, real emotional presence and intensity. You also get, the chemistry between Hawke and Betty Gilpin is off.

• 45:30Chris Ryan?

  That was the next thing I was gonna bring.

• 45:31Andy Greenwald?

  The chain. It is so exciting to watch. You ask me and I'll just keep answering.

• 45:37Chris Ryan?

  They have found someone who can post up on Ethan Hawke. Because if you were gonna say anything about this entire endeavor from the first season, it might be, it might be, if I was concerned trolling, that that is a character that is difficult to watch, be on 11 for eight hours, right? Like, that him exploding into a room screaming about truth and journalism and, and his, his sort of clairvoyance about the world, it could, it, it needed a different gear. It needed a different pitch. And the scene where she's

• 46:20Chris Ryan?

  obviously just one of the most gifted performers of her generation, but the fact that he is seeding the, the scenic spotlight to her, and that moment where she's just like, yeah, like, the reason why I'm so dead set on finding Miko is because I fell in love with him, you know, and that I am a lonely person. And he was, I thought he was a lonely person too. And we had this incredibly intimate phone relationship for a year. And she's crying and he just gets out of the way. But he's still Ethan Hawke and he radiates empathy. And it's, it's beautiful.

• 46:57Andy Greenwald?

  He, you can tell, first of all, he respects the hell out of her. That he is, like, whenever, we've talked to Ethan Hawke, whenever he talks to anyone, and he talks a lot, he talks about how much he loves acting. And he talks about it the same way athletes talk about loving playing ball. And when he's on the court with someone who he respects as a partner, you can tell. And the scene you're talking about, carry it further. Like, she says the thing about, you know what it's, how often does that happen when you can just be still with someone? And he says it doesn't. And he meets her exactly where she is emotionally. And then, I believe, if I'm getting my chronology right, then they do the long walk into the Ren Fair, which he then corrects and explains is a Renaissance fair. It is neither. As

• 47:39Andy Greenwald?

  they are walking towards the great Uncle Brownie from Res Dogs. And watching them just walk and banter and take pleasure in the things they are saying as characters, but also as actors. Like, I don't know if I've seen Hawke play a two man game like that since the Before trilogy.

• 47:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, just also in the van on the way home when he's dropping her off and he's wearing the Dump Him t-shirt that he got out of her dryer.

• 48:04Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, I, I've got one more. The single best moment in the episode to me is when they are in Miko's ex's house with the son. And by the way, even the, the, even the like, the way they built that, where he like, sees a wheelchair and then pretends to be a guy getting candy in a wheelchair and then immediately gets found out, like, the, the journey is worth the destination. You know, the detours are the point. So anyway, in that scene in the house, Ginger is talking to this woman about the man that they both love or have loved, but trying to keep some of that quiet.

• 48:35Chris Ryan?

  That like, this man had secrets from both of them. Yeah.

• 48:38Andy Greenwald?

  And what is Hawke doing in that scene? Hawke is attempting to spin a basketball on his fingers. And at one moment, it spins off of his fingers and hits Ginger in the shoulder. And I don't know if this was planned or this was just like one take.

• 48:50Chris Ryan?

  And Betty Gilpin does not break.

• 48:52Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. She's just like, of course, you can't just stand still. It's so funny. It's so alive. And like, again, I, this episode was written by Duffy Boudreau, who is, uh, I think, he's, I think his origin story is he and Bill Hader were childhood friends in, in Oklahoma.

• 49:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, he's a frequent collaborator with Bill Hader. And, uh, it's also directed by Scott Teams, who's from Georgia, and he's a big screenwriter in the horror world where he's done, I think, Insidious, the Red Door one, and wrote one of the Halloween, the David Gordon Green rebooted Halloweens and worked on the David Gordon Green Exorcist. So, yeah, just like two.

• 49:28Andy Greenwald?

  But also directed on Rectify. But the, but the Duffy Boudreau thing I wanted to bring up for is, is because you don't want to ever overly credit a scripted, an episode writer. Like, it, it all flows through Sterling, for sure. But there is some real Barry energy to this episode, in the sense that like, the show is really crystallizing around its own internal logic, that weird things happen and spiritual things happen. And, you know, metaphysical, like, all of these things are possible in this world, but they make sense to the show's own internal metronome. And that is such a remarkable thing. So that even a side quest story, which currently is about Keith David and archaeological dig and to get there or to understand it, he crosses with Michael Hitchcock, who is still

• 50:13Andy Greenwald?

  on the show, and it's wonderful to see him. But those two characters having their own storyline that so, at this point, isn't even touching the Miko story, but you feel good about it? Like, it's earned a B story at this point?

• 50:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, Tommy Lee Jones has essentially been seated for three episodes. And they've had the same conversation multiple times, where he's like, you have until tomorrow to get out of here, and he's still there. Um, obviously, getting in with Francis and Ryan Care Armstrong has done a really good job. It's gotta be a thrill to be like, I'm sitting at a diner table with Tommy Lee Jones.

• 50:44Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think that's a thrill for most 14 year olds?

• 50:46Chris Ryan?

  I don't know, but like, you're gonna be one of, not that many people from your generation to be able to say that, like, yeah, I also acted with Tommy Lee Jones. That's incredible.

• 50:56Andy Greenwald?

  I just like imagining explaining to my daughter that like, no, no, this, this very old man.

• 51:03Chris Ryan?

  Was in the future.

• 51:06Andy Greenwald?

  But, but he really took the lead in US Marshals, which is, you know, less appreciated. But dude, the two dudes at the end, he chokes him out and then, and then, uh, she says, what are you guys doing? And he says, I'm just showing Lee the shed.

• 51:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:22Andy Greenwald?

  It's great.

• 51:22Chris Ryan?

  He's like, did I, did I just choke out a cop? Uh, great show. Uh, I'm, I'm really happy with where we're at. You know, there's a bunch of stuff coming on. We've got a couple of comedies returning, like Reggie Dinkins, and, uh, we'll be back for all of it. Andy, hopefully I get to talk to you a little bit on Thursday about Lowdown or something else. So have a good week, brother, and I'll see you soon.