Are You Ready for a Glorious Sunset? (Rebroadcast)

The gist: we spend billions on end-of-life healthcare that doesn’t do much good. So what if a patient could forego the standard treatment and get a cash rebate instead?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 0:43Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:25Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:54Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey, podcast listeners. I'm Stephen Dubner. I hope you're enjoying these last lazy days of summer. We sure are. So from the archives today, one of the most controversial ideas we've ever explored, episode number 217. It's called, "Are You Ready for a Glorious Sunset?" We'll be back next week with a brand new episode of Freakonomics Radio. But first, one more thing. I am starting a brand new podcast along with The New York Times. It's called Tell Me Something I Don't Know. It's a live game show with guest presenters, celebrity panelists, me as the host. We are currently looking for guest presenters, people who are willing to get up on a stage and tell me, well, something I don't know.

• 3:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  It might be a technological breakthrough you've learned about, maybe even some research you're working on yourself, or it could just be an interesting fact or historical wrinkle, maybe even just a great unasked question. So if you or someone you know would like to participate in Tell Me Something I Don't Know, please go to freakonomics.com/tmsidk, as in Tell Me Something I Don't Know. That's freakonomics.com/tmsidk. You'll find everything you need there, including a signup sheet and information on how to buy tickets for our tapings, which are at Symphony Space in New York in September. Look forward to hearing from you and maybe seeing you. Thanks.

• 4:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  In our previous episode, we talked about a set of TV commercials that use behavioral research to sell financial products like life insurance.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  It's great to think optimistically, but let's plan for whatever the future might bring.

• 4:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  And this got us to thinking about how you might sell a different kind of insurance, one that doesn't even exist yet, and what kind of ad you'd make for it.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  OK, here's what I would show.

• 4:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Steve Levitt. He's my Freakonomics friend and co-author.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  I would show a sick old person, but not the way sick old people are usually shown as being reasonably happy and fit, but what really people who are dying look like: deformed, can't breathe, suffering deeply. And then at the bedside would be a bunch of children in tattered clothing, looking kind of hungry and seeming as if they could really use a college education or something. And then the voice of God coming over would somehow make the point that another two weeks of pain so bad it distorts your face, lying in bed in a coma, isn't worth the cost of

• 5:17Speaker 02

  your kids, or your grandkids, I should say, not being able to go to college.

• 5:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  So this TV ad might sound something like this.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  We all want to take care of mom, but the doctor says her treatments might cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, and even so, she'll never fully recover. And we've got two kids to put through college.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Millions of families are struggling with these same decisions. Now, a new healthcare plan puts you in control. You can decide if medical treatments are right for you or your loved one. And if you decide to forego the standard treatment, we'll put the money directly in your pocket to use for whatever you need.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  College tuition, a new house, or to take mom on one last adventure to soak up some glorious sunsets.

• 6:12Speaker 03

  Thanks to glorious sunset healthcare option, mom won't have to suffer. And we can make decisions that make sense for our family.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Isn't it time for you to think about a glorious sunset? Enroll today.

• 6:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  So what do you think? Is it time for you, for all of us, to think about a glorious sunset? On this episode, we will put this idea through its paces and solicit a variety of opinions, from economists. I love that idea. To physicians. It would be a public relations nightmare. To physicians who are also public intellectuals.

• 6:48Speaker 04

  It's so cold-blooded, it's so calculating, it's so utilitarian that it's not American.

• 6:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  And we hear from you, our listeners.

• 6:56Speaker 05

  My name's Samu. I'm 40 years old. First, I'd like to know, who's the heartless person who thought of this? And second of all, I think it's pretty genius, actually.

• 7:17Speaker 06

  From WNYC Studios, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 7:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  The proposal under consideration today comes from a listener. Sent us an email.

• 7:39Speaker 07

  I'm Tim Price. I am the chief investment officer for a mid-sized public pension fund.

• 7:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, you want to name the public pension fund for us?

• 7:47Speaker 07

  I've been asked not to.

• 7:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ah, okay.

• 7:50Speaker 07

  This is a personal idea and not a organizational idea.

• 7:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Fair enough. In other words, that's a good hint that the idea we're about to discuss is so repugnant that your firm is smart enough to not want to be anywhere near it. Well, I shouldn't say repugnant, but it's, um...

• 8:06Speaker 07

  Potentially unpalatable.

• 8:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Potentially unpalatable, that's a good way of putting it. Price lives in the Bay Area, he's in his late 30s, got a wife, two kids.

• 8:16Speaker 07

  Kids are six and two.

• 8:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, and what are their names? I'm just curious.

• 8:20Speaker 07

  Sure, Calvin and Elliot.

• 8:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Like I said, we first heard from Tim Price via email. I asked him now to read the email aloud.

• 8:28Speaker 07

  Why don't health insurance companies offer bonuses to patients who are willing to forgo standard end-of-life medical care? When a patient receives a terminal diagnosis, I have to believe that the healthcare companies have actuaries and data sets that would give them guidance on what the next six to 24 months of medical care would cost. For patients willing to skip this type of care, my idea is for a bonus, according to the following formula. An immediate bonus of approximately 50% of the difference between the actuarial underwriting of standard medical care and hospice or palliative care. The patient maintains control over the optionality, but an immediate benefit opens up to them. One last grand vacation, a lasting legacy for the next generation, et cetera. The health insurer gets an actuarial gain and makes progress towards disincentivizing

• 9:13Speaker 07

  excessive consumption of healthcare in the final months of life. Seems like a no-brainer to the economist in me, though my sociologist wife thinks I'm completely cold-blooded.

• 9:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  The idea came up, Price tells us, when he and a few colleagues were doing what they always do at work, kicking around investment ideas.

• 9:31Speaker 07

  Yeah, we kept coming back to the idea that, depending on the study you look at, 40, 60, 80% of lifetime medical care is expended in the final 12 months or the end of life generally.

• 9:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  And once you go down that road of thinking, you get to an obvious fork.

• 9:53Speaker 07

  It comes down to this idea of, are you optimizing quality of life or are you optimizing quantity of life? And under the current structure, it looks like, from my perspective, you're optimizing quantity of life as a proxy for quality of life.

• 10:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  And how long into this conversation did you realize that a lot of people, when they first hear an idea like this, are just gonna immediately hate it?

• 10:20Speaker 07

  Oh, pretty much immediately. I mean, it touches on a lot of taboos, right? I mean, you're touching on death, you're touching on money, you're touching on healthcare, which clearly a third rail.

• 10:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right, Lev, how do you like that idea? The surrendering end-of-life care for a cash rebate idea from the insurance company?

• 10:43Speaker 02

  I love that idea. I have so long railed against the kind of spending that we do at the end of life. And one thing that's hard about end-of-life is someone's got to decide if it's really end-of-life, right? So it's really easy after someone dies to say, oh, that was the last month of their life. But before the person dies, it's not so easy to tell. And so if you leave a decision about end-of-life care up to the government, then the problem is people say, oh, no, that's death panels. That person's not going to die. We could still save them. But if the patient himself or herself says, look, this is the end of my life. I don't want this expensive care.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  I'd rather have the money go to my kids or to charity, then I think that's a really brilliant way to get around the natural impulse to fight our concern about not giving people the kind of care they deserve.

• 11:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  If it's so brilliant, why haven't we seen it?

• 11:42Speaker 02

  Well, for starters, my hunch is it's probably not legal and somehow you get into trouble for doing it because there's a lot of things we don't let people do. Like, we don't really let people commit suicide. And we don't let others in most states do assisted suicide. So there is this amazing unwillingness for the living to let people who want to die, die. So I think that's part of the repulsive nature of this program, that many people would hear about it and say, ooh, I don't like the feeling of that.

• 12:20Speaker 08

  My name is Ryan, and I'm from South Carolina. Probably, if this was enacted, it would be a firestorm of negativity from people who weren't faced with that decision, decrying it as putting a price on human life.

• 12:33Speaker 09

  There are both legal hurdles and it would be a public relations nightmare.

• 12:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Thomas Smith. He's an oncologist and a prominent cancer researcher. He runs the palliative medicine program at Johns Hopkins Sidney Kimmel Comprehensive Cancer Center.

• 12:47Speaker 09

  I don't think Cigna, Aetna, Trigon really want to deal with that. You'd have to figure out what you would do with the money you would pay the patient. How does it get taxed, state by state? How does it get taxed by the feds? And it's a public relations nightmare because it looks like the insurance companies are trying to keep people out of the hospital, keep them from getting their chemotherapy which might help them, keep them from getting their left ventricular assist device or artificial heart just to save money. It really is a nightmare.

• 13:19Speaker 10

  It's hard to sell because healthcare isn't just economics. It's ethics. It's partly religious.

• 13:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  And that is?

• 13:28Speaker 10

  Uwe Reinhardt. I teach economics at Princeton University.

• 13:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Reinhardt is among the most prominent healthcare economists in the world. He's thought long and hard about the many ways in which healthcare, which has been creeping toward 20% of GDP in the US, is a unique animal.

• 13:47Speaker 10

  It is absurd that people seem to think the market works in healthcare. And as an economist, I say, how could any market work when the buyers don't know prices and quality ahead of time? You know, you go into a hospital, you don't have a clue what you'll owe when you come out. You don't have a clue. They wheel in a machine. What's this? Echogram. Well, how much does it cost? The nurse says, how would I know? Imagine that. They go to a counter and they say, hey, it's a nice shirt. How much is it? And the sales clerk says, how would I know? But this is how we buy healthcare.

• 14:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's how we buy healthcare in large part because consumers often don't pay the costs directly. They're paid for by an insurer, a private firm, or in the case of Medicaid and Medicare, a government plan. Once you bundle that lack of transparency with the end of a person's life, well, plainly, we're not just talking economics here. But it's a good place to start.

• 14:55Speaker 04

  First of all, there is a fair amount of money in end-of-life care.

• 15:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Ezekiel Emanuel, not Rahm Emanuel, mayor of Chicago, or Ari Emanuel, co-CEO of William Morris Endeavor. Those are his brothers. This is Zeke.

• 15:10Speaker 04

  I'm vice provost of Global Initiatives and chair of the Department of Medical Ethics and Health Policy at the University of Pennsylvania.

• 15:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Emanuel is also a physician who, you may recall, helped the White House formulate the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare.

• 15:25Speaker 04

  In the Medicare system, about 25%, 27% of the Medicare budget actually goes to patients who die in the last, within the year. So it's big in Medicare, and that's because people who tend to die tend to be over 65 and on Medicare. But spending a lot doesn't mean you can save a lot, and I think that's where we often get confused. I think rather than focus on the dollars and cents, we should really focus on patient and families and try to make this traumatic event as smooth and comforting as possible. And we haven't gotten it right. And the healthcare system, you know, instead of talking to a patient and getting it right, we sort of pound on their chest and try to resuscitate them, even when that may not

• 16:10Speaker 04

  be what they want. And I think trying to get what patients want ought to be our primary focus.

• 16:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  When's the last time you heard about a doctor dying in the ICU with advanced cancer, or advanced heart disease, or advanced congestive heart failure, emphysema? That's Tom Smith again, from Johns Hopkins.

• 16:32Speaker 09

  It just doesn't happen. Because doctors really bargain for, how much good is this going to do me? Is it really worth it?

• 16:40Speaker 04

  If you look at the data on doctors, most doctors don't want a lot of these interventions for themselves. So, there is actually a sort of paradox here, that we do this for patients, but when you ask us, "How do we want to be treated?", it turns out, no, that's not really for me. Leave me alone.

• 16:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  How old are you, Dr. Emanuel?

• 17:00Speaker 04

  Fifty-eight.

• 17:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Fifty-eight. Now, in The Atlantic, you wrote not long ago, that you only want to live until the age of 75, and you spell out in-

• 17:08Speaker 04

  Well, that's not exactly what I said.

• 17:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  We should note that The Atlantic article was headlined, "Why I Hope to Die at 75." We should also note that writers often don't get to write their own headlines. In any case, in the article, Emanuel spells out all the things he wouldn't want done to him. No cancer treatment, no cardiac stress tests, certainly no pacemaker or implantable defibrillator.

• 17:34Speaker 04

  And, I was like, you know, if I get to 75 and everything's still firing, that's great, but I'm not trying to live forever. It's about quality of life, and then, you know, it's, I don't want all these interventions that are really done for the reason of prolonging my life. So, the reason I don't want the defibrillator, I would take cancer chemotherapy, is they're for prolonging my life. And I will say, a number of people have said to me, including my father, I might say, he says, "Well, you know, you'll change your mind." And my father, unlike most people, recognizes that I can be stubborn about these things. And he says, "I think the one thing which is going to change your mind is having grandchildren."

• 18:15Speaker 04

  And that's an experience I have not had, and maybe, maybe he'll be right. He's a very, very smart guy.

• 18:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  How old is your dad?

• 18:23Speaker 04

  He's 88.

• 18:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, he must have taken this as a little bit of a, "Hey, you know, hey pops, you know, those last 13 years, you didn't really, you didn't really need him."

• 18:36Speaker 04

  No, it's not that he didn't need him. So, we've had a long, a number of long discussions about this, and he, he reminds me, we don't agree, but we don't agree on lots of things.

• 18:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Uwe Reinhardt, the Princeton economist, also has a story about his father. Reinhardt is from Germany, that's where his father was, diagnosed with pancreatic cancer.

• 18:59Speaker 10

  So I actually called that German physician, and I said, "So what are you gonna do about it?" And he said, "Nothing." And I said, "You kidding me?" He said, "No, no, no. We make him as comfortable as we can, but he will pass away in a couple of weeks." So I called my Harvard friend and told him, "Shouldn't I fly my dad over here, and you guys can do something?" And he said, "Oh, yeah, we could do something. We could probably buy him another three, four months, and he'd be in an ICU, full of tubes, and a lot of pain." He said, "I could do that, but do you want me to do that?" And then he said, "You know,

• 19:41Speaker 10

  this gruff German physician actually did you a great favor by simply communicating to you, 'Don't even tell me what to do. I'm the doc, and I'm telling you, for the patient, it is not a quality life worth doing that for.'" And here was this American physician telling me, he's a very good doctor, because he didn't put that burden on your shoulder. He took it on his shoulder.

• 20:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  So this is really the core of Tim Price's idea, the glorious sunset proposal. Just because life can be medically extended, it doesn't mean that, A, it necessarily should be, or B, that the quality of life during that extension is in any way desirable. And yet, if you've essentially already bought and paid for all that end-of-life treatment through your insurance plan, aren't you entitled to something?

• 20:41Speaker 11

  Hello. My name is David Schlossinger. I am 38 years old and I live in Oregon, Wisconsin. I would take the cash rebate from the insurance company and I would seek treatment for my condition in a country that had significantly lower medical costs in the United States, possibly India or parts of Europe.

• 21:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up on Freakonomics Radio, would the glorious sunset plan be just another form of healthcare rationing?

• 21:07Speaker 10

  A very rich guy who runs a hedge fund wouldn't even consider that deal because what you're talking about, maybe 500,000 bucks, it's just behind the decimal for what these guys are worth.

• 21:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  And things are changing, subtly, but they are changing, in how our healthcare system looks at death.

• 21:28Speaker 04

  You know, as I like to say, talking about the end of life is the hardest thing a doctor does.

• 21:45Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 22:30Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 22:48Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 23:31Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 23:53Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 24:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  The proposal on the table today, we are calling it the Glorious Sunset Plan, would allow a terminally ill patient to forego standard end-of-life care in exchange for a cash rebate from his or her insurance provider. A lot of people who listen to this program thought this idea might not work so well.

• 24:57Speaker 12

  My name's Diane, I'm 34, and I'm in Chicago. I don't know how you're going to get the insurance companies to agree to it and how you smooth out the fine lines of what happens if a particular patient changes their mind or if they get admitted to the hospital while they're found unconscious or something like that.

• 25:17Speaker 13

  Hi Freakonomics, my name is Israel DeBruin and I'm from Milwaukee. And right away when I heard your question, the first thing that I thought about was that there would be some people out there who didn't really feel like they had much of a choice in the matter and would feel obligated to make the choice to take the cash rebate because of their financial circumstances or their family's financial circumstances.

• 25:43Speaker 10

  You know, I could even imagine it coming because it is just another form of rationing healthcare or life years by income class, right?

• 25:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Uwe Reinhardt, the healthcare economist.

• 25:58Speaker 10

  A very rich guy who runs a hedge fund wouldn't even consider that deal because what you're talking about, maybe 500,000 bucks, it's just behind the decimal for what these guys are worth. While if someone were lower middle class, they would have a very tortured debate around the dinner table, should we do this?

• 26:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let's pretend for a minute that you are not an economics professor but that you are, let's say, the CEO of a private healthcare insurance provider. Would you even consider trying to craft a proposal to make this kind of offer to your customers?

• 26:40Speaker 10

  You know, I wouldn't for the simple reason, what's in it for you? As an insurer, you are just passing through the hospital and doctor bills and you get a little margin on them, it's actually usually 3% to 5%. So your incentive is actually, in many ways, to increase health spending, right? Because then you get your 3% on a higher throughput, which is why these guys traditionally have never regulated or controlled costs at all.

• 27:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  So there's a lot going against our glorious sunset plan, isn't there? The economics, the healthcare rationing argument. But I'd bet that even more people would be turned off by its resemblance, its sort of resemblance at least, to the infamous death panel debate.

• 27:31Speaker 04

  Ezekiel, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel.

• 27:34Speaker 14

  Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel believes that we should calculate the value of a human life and the amount we should spend to keep that life alive.

• 27:42Speaker 15

  And he is said to be the architect of Obamacare. He's a respected doctor, but he's been under a lot of fire since this law was born.

• 27:48Speaker 04

  This is Ezekiel Emanuel.

• 27:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  You were very involved in the formulation of the Affordable Care Act. One of the most controversial issues, whether warranted or not, was the so-called death panel formulation of the way that end-of-life care would be kind of accounted for and dealt with, and other end-of-life care issues in the Medicare system.

• 28:12Speaker 04

  Let me clarify that.

• 28:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Please do.

• 28:16Speaker 04

  There was never, ever, ever, in any draft of the Affordable Care Act, anything about end-of-life care. It never made it into the draft. What ended up happening is that there were some ideas floated around and discussions had, and that, people said, well, they're going to introduce death panels into the bill.

• 28:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Discussions, including on the other side of the aisle, from what I recall, yes?

• 28:44Speaker 04

  Yes, oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, the great irony of the whole thing is that Newt Gingrich had been a long advocate of advance directives and actually having doctors talk to patients about advance directives. Johnny Isakson, a senator from Georgia during that time, similarly had introduced a piece of legislation exactly like what was being discussed in terms of encouraging doctors to have conversations paying doctors. Sarah Palin, when she was governor of Alaska, had a whole month devoted to getting Alaskans to fill out advance directives. So the Republican Party had always endorsed this until it became convenient not to endorse it and to vilify it. ... ...

• 29:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  That was then. Now, well, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services has just proposed a regulation that would actually pay doctors to do nothing more than have a conversation with patients about their impending death.

• 29:39Speaker 04

  You know, talking about the end of life is the hardest thing a doctor does. And it's emotionally charged, it's physically draining, it takes time, and we need to recognize that increasingly that these kind of conversations, they require a lot of skill, as much skill as maybe doing a colonoscopy or doing a surgical procedure. It's not physical, manual skill, it's not about dexterity, but it is about something probably just as important, if not more important, it's about emotional understanding of patients. And it ought to be compensated the way we compensate for other skills and talents.

• 30:17Speaker 09

  There's a potential that Medicare will pay doctors like me a fee for spending a really difficult hour talking with patients about end-of-life care.

• 30:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's the oncologist, Tom Smith.

• 30:31Speaker 09

  None of that is trying to get people not to be coded, not to be in the hospital, but just to discern their wishes, because we can't honor people's wishes unless we know what they are about resuscitation, being on a ventilator, being on dialysis. So that's a start.

• 30:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Smith acknowledges the potential conflict of interest in how some doctors have historically treated dying patients.

• 30:54Speaker 09

  We've worried a lot that the incentives are misaligned for the use of chemotherapy in the last month of life, because up until recently oncologists got paid a lot more to give chemotherapy than they did to spend time talking with patients. But when Ronan Kelly and I actually looked at the patterns of chemotherapy use around the world, they were exactly the same. Somewhere between 20 and 30% of all patients in Spain, Portugal, Japan, Italy, and the US get chemotherapy in the last month of life. And it bore absolutely no relationship to the fact that the oncologist did or did not make money on it. I can't speak to hospitals, but oncologists like me don't give chemotherapy to make money.

• 31:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  So as a doctor who's had to tell too many people that their time has come and that, yes, he can give them some expensive and not very effective and often very punishing drugs, Tom Smith understands where Tim Price, our listener, is coming from with his proposal to let people opt out and split the unspent dollars with the insurance company.

• 32:02Speaker 09

  It sounds good on paper. I agree with him that it sounds like it should work.

• 32:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Smith, in fact, once toyed with a similar idea for treating terminal lung cancer patients.

• 32:13Speaker 09

  We actually tried to set up an experiment like that back in the mid-1990s, when, much like now, costs of healthcare, particularly cancer care, were escalating through the roof.

• 32:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  There were two primary options.

• 32:24Speaker 09

  One was to stay in your regular fee-for-service insurance. And the second was to get a capitated indemnity payment.

• 32:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  Capitation means the healthcare provider receives a fixed fee for treating each patient. At the time of Smith's experiment, it was $18,000.

• 32:41Speaker 09

  Because that's what we calculated the average lung cancer patient would spend on chemo and radiation in the last 12 months of life. It's, you know, triple that now. So we set up the trial. The patients who went on the indemnity arm, they'd get the $18,000. They got the best supportive care or hospice care that could be provided. And they would spend the $18,000 on chemo or radiation if they wanted to, or they could keep it and use it for a grandkid's education, or buy a boat, go on vacation.

• 33:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Smith was enthusiastic about the idea, but...

• 33:19Speaker 09

  It didn't work for a couple of reasons.

• 33:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  The first reason...

• 33:22Speaker 09

  Our patients were actually interested, but their doctor providers weren't. It's pretty hard to look at those two very different choices and decide what to do. It's very difficult trying to decide, first of all, when somebody's going to die. We are actually pretty good at making guesses for populations, but for each individual person, it can be really hard to tell when they are...

• 33:49Speaker 09

  In a downward spiral and going to die.

• 33:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  There was a second reason.

• 33:55Speaker 09

  It's really hard for consumers, also known as people with an illness, and their families to figure out what's the best treatment for them. We thought it would force doctors and patients to really bargain on either the prices or to bargain on how effective is this? What's its chance of really shrinking my cancer? What's its chance of making me live longer? How much longer will I live? What will my quality of life be? Those are all really good questions, and we think those should be asked by anybody contemplating non-curative therapy anyway.

• 34:37Speaker 09

  These are really tough conversations to have, and when you add in the cost, it gets even tougher.

• 34:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Tom Smith would propose something completely different.

• 34:47Speaker 09

  I would propose that doctors be very honest with their patients about what's going to happen to them. And we're actually working on a temporary tattoo that goes on the doctor's inner-left forearm, and the first question you look at is, how do you like to get medical information?

• 35:07Speaker 09

  And number two is, what's your understanding of your situation? Number three is, what's important to you? Number four is, what are you hoping for? And number five is, have you thought about a time when you might be sicker, when you might need an advanced directive or living well? If you do that, if you have that conversation, it really changes how people pursue end-of-life care. And it gets regular people and their families actually behaving the way that doctors do. Because doctors really bargain for, how much good is this going to do me? What's, is it really worth it?

• 35:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  In Smith's experience, the failure to talk about death, even with a patient who's plainly dying, is a big problem. He'd like to see more widespread palliative care, that is, easing the symptoms of serious illness, either parallel to or instead of treating the illness itself.

• 36:09Speaker 09

  It turns out, if you get palliative care involved early, like at the start of a diagnosis of advanced cancer, at the start of bad heart failure, at the start of when somebody needs a heart transplant, the whole scenario changes. People have better pain and symptom management, their families are markedly less distressed. They end up living longer. That's right, living longer, not shorter. And a good side effect is that most end-of-life hospitalizations are avoided. People really don't come to the hospital because they want to. They come to the hospital because it's 3 o'clock on a Thursday night and their loved

• 36:53Speaker 09

  one is short of breath or having pain, and they don't know what to do. How much better it would be if you could have had a palliative care team available to them and a hospice nurse come out and see them on Tuesday at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, adjust their pain medicines, adjust their shortness-of-breath medicines, so they didn't need to come to the hospital. And that's one way that you can actually reduce healthcare costs substantially in the last month or two of life while actually improving care.

• 37:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  And so, for a lot of reasons, Tom Smith cannot sign off on Tim Price's proposal.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Isn't it time for you to think about a glorious sunset? Enroll today.

• 37:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Because it's not just about medicine, or economics, or ethics, or religion, even politics. It's about all of them and more.

• 37:52Speaker 09

  I think these are really, really tough decisions. And I think trying to do what Mr. Price says would be very difficult. I think his sociologist wife has it right. It's too hard to choose, and it's much better if we define a set number of treatments for each disease.

• 38:13Speaker 09

  Have external bodies, rather than the individual doctor and patient, decide what's good quality of care, start monitoring ourselves, start providing the best care that we can, based on actual measurements, rather than based on what we think, and hold ourselves accountable. It's going to get more and more difficult with the amazing increase in cost of drugs. I mean, some of the new drugs are two and three times what they've ever been before. And that would make, that would exhaust most medical savings accounts very quickly. That's where it's time for us, as a society, to sit down and figure out how much we should

• 38:55Speaker 09

  be spending on cancer at the end of life, versus curative cancer therapy, heart disease therapies, and for my pediatrician wife, making sure that every kid gets a good head start, making sure that every kid gets their vaccinations, making sure that we give people a decent chance to succeed in this life.

• 39:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Tim Price, for his part, still thinks the idea has merit.

• 39:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, I'm going to ask you to envision a horrible scenario that involves you and your death. You can handle it, or no? I can handle it. All right, so you're in your late 30s, you said you have two young kids, six and two, correct? Yep. All right, so let's say, and I hate to even say this in a way, because it feels like it's tempting fate, but I don't really believe in that, so I'm going to go ahead and say, let's say, God forbid, everybody forbid, whatever you believe in forbid, that you, Tim Price, are diagnosed with something like lung cancer, okay? Tomorrow. And you're told that you have probably six months to live, and you're told that with the available treatments, you might have nine months to live. Let's just say those are the numbers.

• 40:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  And you're not paying for those, for those treatments, those are, those are covered theoretically by your insurance. But I say to you, Tim, you know, if you decide to forego that standard treatment, I, the insurance provider, will essentially split the cost with you.

• 40:24Speaker 07

  Well, I think you certainly have to take a look at what the difference in your life would be with treatment without. What the probability is that those additional months are going to be what I would consider to be valuable months. Am I going to be able to be with my family, be with my sons, get more out of it? Or am I going to be, you know, am I going to be incapacitated and not able to engage and interact with my family?

• 41:04Speaker 07

  Versus what would those additional dollars allow me to do today? Over the next couple of weeks, over the next couple of months? I don't know if I would do it or not, but I know I would like the option of doing that, of having that conversation with my wife and thinking about kind of the legacy I want to leave for my family. I think that would be a long and difficult conversation. You know, it's, your life is yours, but it's a little bit, belongs to everybody you interact with.

• 42:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by WNYC Studios and Dubner Productions. This episode was produced by Greg Rosalsky. Our staff also includes Erva Gunja, Jake Howitt, Merritt Jacob, Christopher Wirth, Caitlin Pierce, Alison Hockenberry, Emma Morgenstern, and Jolenta Greenberg. Harry Huggins is our intern. You can subscribe to this podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. And come visit Freakonomics.com, where you'll find our entire podcast archive, as well as a complete transcript of every episode we've ever made, along with music credits and lots more. Thanks for listening.

• 42:59Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 43:30Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 44:08Speaker 16

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