MURDEROUS MINDS: ‘Doomsday Mom’ Lori Vallow Daybell Pt. 2

With a new conviction just handed down, ‘Doomsday Mom’ Lori Vallow Daybell is back in the headlines. In Part 2, we follow her twisted relationship with Chad Daybell, the murders that shocked the world, and the latest breaking news updates on her case. Killer Minds is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. For ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Don’t miss out on all things Killer Minds! Instagram: @killerminds https://www.instagram.com/killerminds/ | @Crimehouse https://www.instagram.com/crimehouse/ TikTok: @Crimehouse https://www.tiktok.com/@crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios https://www.facebook.com/crimehousestudios X: @crimehousemedia https://x.com/crimehousemedia

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:42Vanessa Richardson?

  We all need a sense of purpose, something to give our lives meaning. Some people might find that in their careers, others in starting a family. And then there are those of us who find their true calling in religion. That was the case with Lori Vallow Daybell. Her faith was everything to her. But Lori wasn't a nun or a pastor. She didn't promote peace or harmony because her goal wasn't to make the world a better place. It was to end it completely. And she started close to home with her own family.

• 1:30Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Killer Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 1:45Tristin Engels?

  And I'm Dr. Tristin Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.

• 1:53Vanessa Richardson?

  Crime House is made possible by you. Please rate, review, and follow Killer Minds. To enhance your listening experience with ad-free, early access to each two-part series and bonus content, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. A warning: This episode contains descriptions of murder, physical and sexual abuse, including that of minors. Listener discretion is advised. This is the final episode on our deep dive into Lori Vallow Daybell, the leader of an extremist Mormon cult who was found guilty of murdering two of her children and conspiring to kill her husband's ex-wife.

• 2:32Tristin Engels?

  As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like how Lori and Chad Daybell drew people in with their mystical beliefs, why their cult-like persuasion tactics were so effective, and the psychological intricacies that drove Lori to torment her relatives and harm her own children.

• 2:52Vanessa Richardson?

  And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?

• 3:01Speaker 03

  Football Sundays are at my house this year, so I've been making a Total Wine & More run before every kickoff. Cold beer for the group is a given, but this time of year, I like to bring in some fall flavors. A bottle of maple whiskey and a salted caramel whiskey that even my friends who don't drink whiskey end up trying. I get everything I need at the lowest prices at Total Wine. Discover your new favorite fall flavors at Total Wine & More. Spirits are not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly. Must be 21.

• 3:28Vanessa Richardson?

  By October 2018, 45-year-old Lori Vallow had everything she'd ever wanted: a devoted husband, a lovely home, three beautiful, healthy kids. But after she met 50-year-old Chad Daybell at a conference for so-called doomsday preppers, her seemingly perfect life started to crumble, and it was all Lori's doing. Chad was a Mormon novelist whose books were about his visions of the apocalypse. His works were extremely popular in the doomsday prepping community, which involved getting ready for the impending apocalypse. Lori was one of Chad's biggest fans. After the

• 4:09Vanessa Richardson?

  conference, Lori and Chad started texting and emailing on a regular basis. But these were more than friendly conversations. Lori often sent Chad videos of herself dancing nude. Neither of them seemed to care that they were both married because to them, their connection was more than physical. It was divine. The more they spoke, the more they learned about what shaped each other's faith. For Chad, it was his near-death experiences. For Lori, it was her abusive relationships. But those events didn't just make them stronger, they also believed they had led them to each other.

• 4:49Tristin Engels?

  Yeah, let's talk about that. So we know that people can form strong connections with others who understand their pain because it's validating, it's less isolating, and there's a shared sense of vulnerability. Both Chad and Lori have past traumas, like you mentioned, and that they're open about with one another. But is this what brought them together? Or was it their shared spirituality? Because if we recall, Lori has been married four times, and each time she chose a partner who did not share her faith, or who didn't want to convert, or who did convert but didn't want to believe in her fringe beliefs. And every time her marriages were crumbling, she leaned more into her faith. Chad's already established in the Mormon community.

• 5:33Tristin Engels?

  He's an author of religious-based books, he's a doomsday prepper, and he speaks at Mormon events. I feel that Lori's attraction to Chad is more likely due to his fringe beliefs aligning with hers and how established he is in the community. He has a following. And if Lori is someone in need of admiration and recognition, then she would be immediately attracted to that because of what she will gain from it. So aligning with him would make her feel more powerful, and the same could be true for Chad. Aligning with her makes him feel more powerful because of how much she believes in what he believes in.

• 6:10Vanessa Richardson?

  Lori and Chad both believed their bond was forged in the heavens, and they both shared what they believed was an incredible gift: the ability to receive messages from angels. And according to Chad, he could do even more than that. About a week after they met, Chad told Lori about something strange he'd seen a year earlier in 2017. On that day, he was sitting in the pews at church when he noticed something out of the corner of his eye. It was a gold necklace with an owl pendant, just sitting right next to him. Apparently Chad had been fascinated with owls ever since he was a kid. He believed they possessed secret powers from beyond the veil.

• 6:52Vanessa Richardson?

  In Mormon religion, the veil is described as an unknown state of being that people enter after they die. Chad was convinced the owl necklace was a gift from the heavens, and that it would give him otherworldly power. He kept the necklace and brought it out during small gatherings at his home. He told his friends and fans that he could use the necklace to determine who they were in their past lives. It's not totally clear how it worked, but it seems like Chad would dangle it from his hand and ask a yes or no question. If the necklace swung left to right, that meant yes. If it swung in a circle, that meant no. The necklace seemed to know remarkable things about people's pasts, things no one else

• 7:36Vanessa Richardson?

  could know. In reality, Chad had reportedly done extensive research on his subjects before doing his so-called reading. Still, Chad claimed the necklace also had another gift. It could tell if someone had light or dark spirits within them. Chad said only those with the lightest spirits deserved to witness the second coming of Christ and the ensuing apocalypse, which he believed would occur in 2020. When Chad became closer with Lori in October 2018, he performed readings on her and her family members. Apparently, he could do it without actually meeting them, or even talking to them, just

• 8:20Vanessa Richardson?

  asking the owl necklace was enough. Chad said that Lori had the lightest spirit of everyone on the list, except for himself, of course. But Lori was surprised to hear that her 16-year-old daughter, Tylee, had a dark spirit.

• 8:36Vanessa Richardson?

  Lori didn't question it. Although the news about Tylee was concerning, it confirmed Lori's belief that she herself was destined for greatness. And to Lori, that was more important.

• 8:49Tristin Engels?

  People who fraudulently claim to have special powers like this, especially in a religious context and are seeking a cult following, are often motivated by financial gain, power and influence, fame or recognition, and self-importance. And people who believe in these special mystical powers are already vulnerable. They may or may not be experiencing a crisis in their own life or suffer from low self-esteem. And as a result, they are seeking belonging, a sense of community and unity. And like you described, even though this owl reading on Tylee was concerning, it confirmed what Lori's belief was. So a lot of people go into this with a confirmation bias. They want to seek a confirmation of their belief.

• 9:34Tristin Engels?

  And that is what makes this effective. Additionally, in a religious context, they already have some similar indoctrinated beliefs, which makes them more primed and vulnerable to tactics like Chad's.

• 9:47Vanessa Richardson?

  In general, there are certain kinds of mystical rituals that go way back, like séances or psychic readings. Can you explain why people are so apt to believe in what a medium or a psychic might tell them?

• 9:59Tristin Engels?

  People have their belief system, and this is not anything against that. But when it does come to psychics, the reason that people seek them out is not all that much different. People are generally experiencing a personal stress or a crisis and are seeking hope and guidance. And the reason why they're susceptible to psychics, it's because of something known as the Barnum effect. Psychic claims are often general and vague, which leads people to accept them as uniquely applicable to them. Again, confirming something for them. And that is what the Barnum effect is. And that makes them more susceptible. But more importantly, they're also seeking to control something regarding their current circumstances. So if a psychic can vaguely predict an outcome,

• 10:43Tristin Engels?

  especially if it's an optimal one... It's going to make them feel as if they can control for the interim struggle and maintain a hope for the predicted changes. And that also keeps them coming back. And this isn't unlike psychology and what we try to do. We teach you that what you believe is how you're going to feel. And how you feel is going to determine how you behave. So if you can change your belief into something more positive, then you're going to feel better about it and you're going to act accordingly. And that instills hope.

• 11:12Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, Lori definitely bought into Chad's so-called powers, but not everyone in her family was convinced. One day, her husband, Charles, found an email from Chad in Lori's inbox. It spoke about all the spiritual readings he'd done for her family. And Charles was extremely concerned about what Chad was saying. Not to mention, it was now clear that Chad and Lori were having, at the very least, an emotional affair. But instead of getting angry, Charles grew worried. He was scared of the influence Chad was having on Lori. So he forwarded the email to her family, including Lori's 22-year-old son, Colby, and his wife, Kelsey. Charles begged them to help Lori.

• 11:54Vanessa Richardson?

  But by that point, the family had grown wary of Charles because they believed he was cheating on Lori, even though that was a lie, one Lori had made up so she could end her marriage and be with Chad. So when Charles forwarded them Chad's email, the rest of Lori's family didn't even read it. Charles wasn't going to give up, though. He kept monitoring Chad's messages to Lori, and they were becoming increasingly disturbing. According to Chad, if someone's spirit was dark enough, it was in limbo, which meant it could never make it to paradise. However, there was a way to free those trapped spirits by killing their human bodies. Chad referred to people like this as zombies.

• 12:39Vanessa Richardson?

  He believed that killing a zombie was a kindness to their soul. Chad told Lori that there were 20,000 zombies on Earth that needed to be eradicated, and that her daughter Tylee was one of them.

• 12:54Tristin Engels?

  Chad's using fear as a manipulation tool, and that can be very effective because it impairs a person's ability to think rationally, which then impairs their decision-making. And this makes them more vulnerable and susceptible to coercive control. For many, fear can be seemingly more effective than a hopeful or positive approach because it has such immediate and intense psychological impacts, especially if there is also a sense of urgency with those fear tactics. This is why so many people are susceptible to marketing or financial scams that use that urgency, because what it does is it narrows their focus and it reduces their ability to think critically.

• 13:35Vanessa Richardson?

  Chad also created a sense of power in himself by making it seem like only he could determine a spirit's lightness. What does that kind of gatekeeping say about him and his followers?

• 13:46Tristin Engels?

  Cult leaders historically do this. They strategically target certain populations or demographics. They prey on vulnerable people with low self-esteem, and they maintain their loyalty by making them feel special or chosen. And the reason he's gatekeeping these special abilities that he has is because if they believe he is chosen and he has special powers, then his appraisal of them seems to have more validity. And this works in Chad's favor because it secures their loyalty. Once they have his approval, they're going to want to maintain that. The same is true of Lori in this relationship, and I think that is worth pointing out because a lot of coverage on this case really centers on her and less on Chad and his role. But as you're taking us through the story,

• 14:31Tristin Engels?

  realistically, it sounds that Chad's the one who's asserting these beliefs that he has these powers, and Chad is the one who's targeting Tylee. Cult leaders want to isolate their followers from anyone who would challenge their beliefs or expose them to any reality, and isolating followers from family members is the first thing they attempt to do. If Lori truly is... Delusional and she has a pathological need for admiration, importance and power, then she would absolutely be susceptible to his manipulation. He could be trying to isolate her as well. What does seem apparent, though, is that they both appear to have traits of narcissism, and that can cause something called narcissistic tolerance, which is the theory that individuals

• 15:14Tristin Engels?

  with narcissistic traits are more drawn to each other because of perceived similarities and validation of each other's own self-importance. So in a sense, they feed off each other's ego constantly, they manipulate each other to maintain those egos. The association with each other alone raises their sense of superiority, and that creates a real storm, especially when you incorporate cult behaviors and tactics.

• 15:40Vanessa Richardson?

  Thankfully, Charles was secretly monitoring their email messages, so he knew that Tylee was in danger. But it doesn't seem like he confronted Lori at this stage. Maybe he thought it would only make things worse. He had no idea he should have been worried about himself, because Chad had convinced Lori that Tylee wasn't the only zombie in her life, so was Charles.

• 16:03Tristin Engels?

  Once again, he is targeting the people in Lori's life that could be challenging his powers, his authority and his beliefs. This is intentional.

• 16:13Vanessa Richardson?

  In January 2019, three months after Charles found the emails, Chad told Lori that he'd used his necklace to perform a deep spiritual reading on her husband. Apparently, Charles had been taken over by a demon, and she had to get away from him. A week after that email, on January 29, 2019, Charles flew to Houston for a business trip. As soon as he was gone, Lori allegedly emptied his business bank account, a total of $35,000. When his plane landed, Lori called Charles to tell him what she'd done. But that wasn't the only confession she made. She also told Charles she transformed into a god.

• 16:56Vanessa Richardson?

  Now it was her mission to gather 144,000 chosen people for the second coming. According to Lori, this would happen in July 2020, and if Charles tried to stop her, she would kill him.

• 17:17Vanessa Richardson?

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• 18:02Vanessa Richardson?

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• 18:27Speaker 04

  One day last year, police entered a mansion in LA County and discovered the couple that live there had almost two dozen children, nearly every one of them born through surrogates. But those surrogates had been deceived.

• 18:43Speaker 05

  I started crying. I was like, what the heck did I just get myself into?

• 18:48Speaker 04

  I'm Eva Kaufman. The Journey is a new series from In the Dark and The New Yorker. Find it now in the In the Dark podcast feed.

• 18:58Speaker 06

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• 19:31Vanessa Richardson?

  On January 29th, 2019, 45-year-old Lori Vallow turned on her husband, Charles. Lori's paramour Chad Daybell had given her some terrible news. According to him, Charles's soul was so dark, he'd become possessed by a demon. Following his advice, she decided to cut him out of her life. After Charles flew to Houston on a business trip, Lori called Charles and told him she'd emptied his bank accounts. Once she hung up, Lori executed the rest of her plan. First, she reportedly called her friend Melanie Gibb, the woman who first introduced her to Chad. She and Melanie drove to the airport where Charles had parked his truck.

• 20:15Vanessa Richardson?

  Using a spare key, Lori got into the vehicle and drove it to another friend's house. After that, she and Melanie headed back to Lori's place and changed all the locks. Then Lori packed up her things, grabbed her 16-year-old daughter Tylee and her six-year-old son JJ, who she and Charles had adopted together, and checked the three of them into a hotel. The next day, Charles borrowed some money from a friend and flew home. After realising his truck was missing, he got a rental car and went home. That's when he discovered his family was missing too, and Lori wasn't picking up her phone. Charles was terrified. He was especially worried about JJ,

• 21:00Vanessa Richardson?

  who had autism and needed medication. With nowhere left to turn, he called the police.

• 21:06Tristin Engels?

  So let's talk about what must be going on in Charles's mind right now and his experience, because he's obviously very terrified for the safety of his children and even his wife. So he has been, as far as we know, a very supportive partner. Despite his suspicions regarding her relationship with Chad, despite seeing the concerning messages between them and witnessing her erratic behaviour and fringe beliefs, he didn't call the police until now, even though she'd already threatened to kill him. Unfortunately, married couples are often very reluctant to involve external interventions because of fear of the consequences, or fear of disrupting the family harmony, and fear of public perception. And until this point, at least from Lori's side,

• 21:50Tristin Engels?

  it was really just all talk, and he had concerns about her mental health. And sometimes challenging somebody in an acute mental health state, or an altered mental health state like she might have been in, could actually cause more defensiveness, and it could create more of an imminent risk to Lori's safety, to his safety, and the safety of his children. So maybe Charles was able to reason with her for short periods of time, and that's why he chose not to involve the police until now, especially if Chad was not there to influence her. But now she's taken action. She's taken their money and the kids. So this is why now he's finally calling the police. There is imminent concern for the safety of the kids and his wife.

• 22:35Vanessa Richardson?

  So when the police heard Charles's story, they were definitely sympathetic to his situation. But beyond telling him to report his truck stolen, there was nothing they could do. So the next morning, February 1, 2019, Charles drove to JJ's school, where he knew Lori would drop him off. But he wasn't ready to confront her just yet. He wanted to gather more evidence first. While Lori was inside the school, Charles allegedly grabbed her phone and purse from her car. He quickly drove off and used Lori's phone to get in touch with her friend, Melanie Gibb. He wanted to know where Lori was staying. That proved to be a mistake. Charles had no idea Melanie was in on the whole thing.

• 23:19Vanessa Richardson?

  She told Lori that Charles had taken her phone and purse, which gave Lori all the ammo she needed to turn the tables on him. Later that afternoon, Lori went to the police station with Tylee and JJ. She spouted the same lies she told her family, that she discovered Charles was unfaithful, so she was leaving him. She said his behavior over the last few days was just his way of lashing out.

• 23:46Tristin Engels?

  I've actually seen footage of this and Lori was very convincing, which is very unnerving because it certainly raises concerns regarding pathological lying, as well as how cunning and manipulative she's become. She used charm and glibness in that interview and she even used her daughter Ty Lee to speak on her behalf and it was really sad to see. But also notably absent in that interaction with law enforcement was any of her fringe beliefs. She didn't mention anything about her belief that her husband was a demon. She simply reverted to him being unfaithful and disloyal to her. And I find that particularly interesting as well because if she truly did believe he was a demon, then why isn't she asserting that now?

• 24:31Vanessa Richardson?

  And it seems like the officers believed her. If anything, Charles was the one in trouble for stealing her phone and purse, though it doesn't seem like Lori pressed any charges. But she wasn't interested in keeping their family together. A couple of weeks later, in February 2019, she had a friend drop JJ off with Charles. Then she and Ty Lee went to stay with one of her friends on the Hawaiian island of Kauai. For the next few months, they bounced back and forth between Kauai and Arizona, while Charles took care of JJ.

• 25:03Tristin Engels?

  I know I alluded to this in episode one, but this is exactly what her parents were doing to her when she was a child. They would jet off to Hawaii and leave their kids in charge of each other, essentially. So this is very similar to her childhood experience.

• 25:18Vanessa Richardson?

  And while Charles knew Lori was going off the rails, he had no idea just how far she'd gone. By this time, Lori and Chad had begun to form a full-on cult, operated online and through podcasts. People like Melanie Gibb and her husband and Lori's brother Alex were all convinced they were chosen for the second coming. There were also a handful of people Lori had met at church and online, plus a few of Chad's longtime followers. They all believed that Lori and Chad were gods and they were willing to follow their every order, no matter how strange. Lori and Chad believed that members of the so-called "chosen" had to be married to certain people.

• 26:01Vanessa Richardson?

  For example, Lori helped Melanie and her husband get a divorce so they could marry the right people, something they were both apparently fine with. Lori also arranged a marriage for her brother Alex, who was 53 years old and, up until now, had never been in a relationship.

• 26:17Tristin Engels?

  So this is another form of control and isolation. Lori and Chad dismantling marriages and then arranging new ones allows them to not only screen their followers, but ensure that these followers will be loyal, devoted, and true believers in their, quote, "godliness." So it ensures group cohesion, it limits individual autonomy, and it creates a full dependency within the cult. And this is not the first cult who has done something like this. There is a cult known as the Twin Flames University. I don't know if you've heard of that or seen any documentaries on it, but essentially, they teach new age spiritualism regarding soulmates. And they prey on lonely individuals who have never found love. And then they assign a soulmate to each member

• 27:03Tristin Engels?

  that the leaders allege is confirmed to them through God. So even Charles Manson did something similar. He didn't arrange marriages or anything like that, but he did allow men into his cult. And the reason he did that was to help control the group and to prevent his followers from straying because they were seeking romance or they were seeking intimacy in some way. So the impact of isolation, manipulation, fear, and control is just very profound when you can really do that on such a big scale like this.

• 27:34Vanessa Richardson?

  Lori and Chad had absolutely become the puppet masters of their friends' lives. But even though they'd successfully arranged two new marriages, there was still a very important one that hadn't taken place: their own. Chad and Lori were desperate to be with each other. To make it happen, they needed to get their current spouses out of the picture. However, Lori wasn't ready to drop Charles just yet. He had a million-dollar life insurance policy, and Lori and Chad needed that money to accomplish their ultimate goal. So in late March 2019, Lori showed up on Charles' doorstep. She said she wanted to give their marriage another shot, and Charles agreed.

• 28:18Vanessa Richardson?

  Of course, Lori was just stringing him along. After only a couple months, she left him again and took JJ with her. She managed to avoid another divorce by saying she didn't want to go through a fourth one. Still, Charles refused to give up on her. He was doing everything in his power to get Lori to snap out of her delusions and get his loving wife back. And if he had to destroy another marriage to save his own, he was willing to do it. In June 2019, Charles reportedly decided he was going to tell Chad's wife Tammy about what was going on between Chad and Lori. He gave Lori 24 hours to do it herself.

• 29:00Vanessa Richardson?

  If she didn't come clean about the affair, he would. When she refused, he made good on his promise. He sent Tammy an email telling her everything. It's not clear if Tammy read the email, but Lori and Chad found out about it, and they weren't going to let Charles' actions go unpunished. On July 11, 2019, Charles went to the house Lori was renting to pick up JJ and make one final plea to her. He was willing to do whatever it took to get his wife back. Only, he never got the chance, because Lori wasn't alone. Her brother Alex was there too. A little while later, Alex called 911.

• 29:44Vanessa Richardson?

  He told the operator that his brother-in-law was dead. When police and medics arrived, only Alex was there. He calmly explained that shortly after Charles got to the house, he and Lori got into an explosive argument and things got physical. Worried about his sister, Alex said he ran into the other room and grabbed his gun. According to Alex, Charles then charged him with a baseball bat. At the same time, Lori and the kids fled. Alex swore he told Charles to calm down, but he wouldn't. So Alex shot him twice in the chest out of self-defense.

• 30:25Tristin Engels?

  Lori has a few patterns that are notable. Firstly, she uses deflection and rationalization to justify her behaviors. For example, she asserted that she didn't want to divorce Charles because it would be her fourth. But I think it's quite apparent that the real reason that she doesn't want to divorce him is because she won't get a million-dollar life insurance policy. Secondly, she uses splitting behaviors. It's another defense mechanism that's characterized by extreme black and white thinking. Someone's either all good or all bad, and the person vacillates between valuing and devaluing others. She also uses coalition. In family systems theory, that is a dysfunctional alliance between at least two family members against another.

• 31:06Tristin Engels?

  So when you combine all of this, we can see how she is able to control and coerce the people in her life. She was doing it to poor Tylee. She was co-alining with her against two of her husbands. And she's certainly been doing this with her brother Alex. And this keeps her feeling powerful, admired, and have a sense of unwavering devotion.

• 31:29Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, even though Lori hadn't killed Charles herself, the police still wanted to talk to her. When she came back to the house later that day, they asked her and Alex to both come to the station. And Lori's story didn't exactly line up with her brothers. Alex said that Lori and the kids were gone when he shot Charles. But Lori told the police she was in the kitchen when she heard the gunshots. She said she'd run into the living room and saw Charles lying in a pool of blood. The inconsistencies made the officers suspicious. But even though they still had questions, the police didn't have a reason to hold Lori and Alex at the station. So they let them go, then finished their crime scene analysis.

• 32:12Vanessa Richardson?

  After that, they waited for the autopsy results. They thought Lori and her family would go off to mourn, except they did the opposite. That same afternoon of Charles's death, Lori hosted a pool party at her rental house.

• 32:28Tristin Engels?

  This seems like a celebration, and it's very indicative of her callousness.

• 32:33Vanessa Richardson?

  Definitely. At some point, she finally took the time to call her 23-year-old son Colby and tell him that Charles was dead. Except, she said he died of a heart attack. When Colby came by Lori's house later that evening, he expected to find his grieving mother. Instead, she was calmly chatting on the phone by the pool. Even stranger, Alex was there, and he had a bandage on his head. Colby could tell something was off. He pressed Lori for answers, and she admitted that Charles hadn't died of a heart attack. She said Alex had shot him in self-defense. None of it made sense to Colby. He knew Charles, and everything

• 33:16Vanessa Richardson?

  his mom was saying just didn't line up, and his suspicions turned out to be right. Two days after Charles died, detectives received his autopsy results. The first gunshot wound was consistent with Alex's story, that Charles had charged at him, but based on the trajectory of the second wound, it was clear Alex fired the second shot after Charles was already on the ground. At that point, the medical examiner realized this wasn't a case of self-defense. It was a homicide.

• 33:58Vanessa Richardson?

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• 34:41Vanessa Richardson?

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• 35:16Tristin Engels?

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• 35:25Speaker 03

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• 35:32Tristin Engels?

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• 35:47Speaker 03

  Did you know that if your spouse goes missing and you don't tell anyone, that's not necessarily a crime? That surprising fact is at the heart of the brand-new season of Bear Brook, the critically acclaimed true crime podcast from New Hampshire Public Radio. I'm your host, Jason Moon. In this season, Bear Brook investigates another New Hampshire mystery. A Christmas tree farmer with dementia vanishes. His wife never reports him missing. Can he still be found? Don't miss it. Follow Bear Brook wherever you get your podcasts.

• 36:18Vanessa Richardson?

  After 46-year-old Lori Vallow's husband was killed on July 10, 2019, she and her brother Alex claimed it was in self-defense, but the autopsy indicated that Charles Vallow had been murdered. However, the authorities weren't moving against Lori or Alex yet, which left her free to pursue her grand scheme, to work with her lover Chad Daybell and prepare for the impending apocalypse. To do that, they needed money, which is why, like you said, Dr. Engels, Lori had never divorced Charles. She wanted his million-dollar life insurance policy. But when she called to collect it,

• 37:00Vanessa Richardson?

  she found out that Charles had removed her as a beneficiary. Apparently, Charles had done it back in March, when he and Lori were fighting, and Lori was furious.

• 37:12Tristin Engels?

  Lori is so used to being admired, praised, and having the devotion of the people around her that she clearly expected the same from Charles. I mean, he was, after all, willing to take her back and work things out, even after she threatened to kill him, stole his truck, took their money, and hid herself and the kids. And because of this, it probably never even occurred to her that he would change his beneficiary. Taking her off as the beneficiary is the same as rejecting her entirely in Lori's eyes. I can see why she was furious, because someone was disloyal to her. I can also see why she would be angry or even afraid, because if killing Charles to get this money was done to appease Chad, and that failed, then this could threaten her good standing with him.

• 37:57Tristin Engels?

  Who's to say she won't become a dark entity or a demon because of that?

• 38:02Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, the failed life insurance scheme was definitely a setback, but Lori wasn't about to give up that easily. Money or no money, Chad still predicted the apocalypse would arrive in less than a year. And even though Chad was still married, Lori was ready to be closer to him. In late August 2019, less than two months after Charles was killed, Lori moved with 16-year-old Tylee and 7-year-old JJ to Rexburg, Idaho, where Chad lived. Lori's brother Alex and his new wife went with them. The sudden move put Lori's 23-year-old son Colby on high alert. He had no idea Chad lived in Rexburg. In fact, he didn't really know about Chad at all.

• 38:46Vanessa Richardson?

  Like Lori's other relatives, Colby had ignored Charles' emails about him. All Colby knew was that Lori said her job was taking her, quote, "somewhere cold." Colby was especially worried about his sister. After Lori and the others left in late August, Colby sent Tylee texts to check on her. Usually, she always responded, but not this time. However, on September 8th, about a week after the move, Colby got some peace of mind. Alex posted some pictures with Lori, Tylee, and JJ on a visit to Yellowstone National Park. They all looked happy, but it wasn't long until his worries resurfaced.

• 39:29Vanessa Richardson?

  September 24th was Tylee's birthday. Colby texted her some well wishes, but her response was strange. It just didn't seem like her, so he texted Lori to ask if the kids were okay. She assured him they were. Still, he sent Tylee messages asking to FaceTime or for her to at least send him a selfie so he knew she was okay. He never heard back. Lori wouldn't let Charles's sister Kay talk to JJ either. At this point, though, people were used to Lori's antics. So while Kay and Colby were both anxious, they figured the kids simply weren't happy in a new town, far away from the rest of their family.

• 40:09Vanessa Richardson?

  They didn't realize that there was a lot more going on in Idaho than they ever imagined. On October 19th, Chad called his sister-in-law Samantha. He told her that his wife Tammy had been sick recently. She'd had a bad cough that wouldn't let up. And that morning, he woke up to find Tammy had died in her sleep. Samantha was stunned and confused. She kept in touch with Tammy and didn't even know her sister was sick. Her feelings worsened when Chad told her he opted out of an autopsy. And since there was no evidence of foul play, Chad had access to Tammy's six-figure life insurance policy.

• 40:53Vanessa Richardson?

  As soon as he cashed it out, he jetted off to Kauai with Lori, just the two of them. With the apocalypse barely eight months away, they were finally going to get married.

• 41:05Tristin Engels?

  So let's talk about the wedding. I think it's clear getting married was the plan all along, but why the rush? Well, there's pressure on them. I mean, Colby is certainly constantly checking and asking to see and speak with Tylee or JJ. And Lori and Chad, they're not producing them. So they might know it's a matter of time before they're arrested or possibly discovered in some way. This makes me think that their decision to rush this wedding is largely due to that because generally speaking, a spouse cannot be compelled to testify against their spouse in criminal proceedings. They may have thought that by marrying one another before they were eventually discovered

• 41:48Tristin Engels?

  or arrested, that they could protect each other in their respective legal cases. It is also a symbol of solidarity and trust between them. And it's another way to lean into their religious ideologies and certainly keep up appearances to their followers when they eventually find out about their wedding.

• 42:05Vanessa Richardson?

  It does seem like Lori and Chad at least tried to keep the wedding hush-hush. Back in Arizona, Kay and Colby had no idea about the marriage. But a couple of weeks later, in mid-November 2019, Kay logged into Charles's old Amazon account and noticed something odd: an order for two wedding rings delivered to Rexburg, Idaho. For Kay, this was the last straw. The next day, she contacted the police investigating Charles's case in Gilbert, Arizona, and told them she hadn't spoken to JJ in two months. She also told them about the wedding ring purchase. Gilbert detectives were already wary of Lori,

• 42:48Vanessa Richardson?

  so they immediately contacted Rexburg PD and gave them Lori's address from the Amazon order. When officers arrived at Lori's condo, she was there with Chad, Alex, and Alex's wife, but JJ was nowhere to be seen, and neither was Ty Lee. Lori claimed Ty Lee was away at college, studying at the Mormon BYU Idaho University, and JJ was staying with her friend Melanie Gibb back in Arizona. She said Melanie was watching him for her while Lori got ready to move back. But Ty Lee wasn't enrolled at BYU Idaho, and when the officers called Melanie that evening to confirm JJ was with her, she said he wasn't.

• 43:31Vanessa Richardson?

  She told them Chad and Lori had asked her to lie, but she wasn't going to cover for them anymore. She had no idea where JJ was. In fact, she hadn't seen him since September.

• 43:44Tristin Engels?

  So historically, Melanie was always somewhat complicit with Lori's lies because she was a loyalist to her and Chad. It took the deaths of both of their spouses and then using her as an alibi for her missing child for Melanie to begin to possibly see the manipulation that was taking place. So after she informed law enforcement of this, this was in a documentary, she called Chad and Lori. It was recorded and it was aired. When Melanie confronted them about their lie, they both immediately began gaslighting Melanie. They were saying things like, "What do you mean? You know me, and I'm so sorry you feel that way." It was really a great insight into how they interacted with those closest to them and

• 44:27Tristin Engels?

  how they may have been using psychological manipulation like gaslighting on Melanie at the very least. This explains, at least in part, why Melanie maybe hadn't turned on them before.

• 44:40Vanessa Richardson?

  What can you tell us about the psychological workings at play when someone who's so deep in a cult has such a sudden moment of deprogramming? What's going on in someone's mind when they suddenly see the light like this?

• 44:52Tristin Engels?

  So it's a very jarring experience for them. Usually, the initial reaction is shock and denial. For some, it can take years of therapy to fully deprogram and truly understand all that took place. It's confusing, it's disorienting, and profoundly traumatic. They often struggle with an identity crisis since they were so deeply indoctrinated in a specific ideology and a group that they may struggle spiritually after this, or struggle finding independence again after so many years in that group mentality. And overall, they have a significant mistrust of the world and everyone in it. And regarding Melanie, recall that she was convinced by Lori to divorce her husband and

• 45:36Tristin Engels?

  marry someone new. She also has to process that, too. That's a significant life change that was encouraged so that Chad and Lori could better control her. There are so many layers of trauma to address, and it requires support, therapy, compassion, and time to really overcome.

• 45:54Vanessa Richardson?

  Finally, the authorities knew JJ was missing. The next morning, Rexburg Police returned to Lori's condo with a warrant. She was nowhere to be found, and the investigators discovered that JJ's prescription medication was still full. They informed the Gilbert Police, who reached out to Colby. After talking to him about his inability to reach Tylee, they considered her missing as well. Considering the circumstances, they also decided to look into Tammy Daybell's death more closely. On December 11, 2019, Tammy's body was exhumed. The results weren't released publicly, but they were deemed suspicious.

• 46:37Vanessa Richardson?

  Meanwhile, Lori and Chad were hiding in Hawaii, hoping it would all blow over. But Lori's brother Alex had stayed on the mainland. He'd already been questioned about Tylee and JJ's disappearances, and he knew Melanie Gibb was cooperating with the police. Then, on December 12, 2019, the day after Tammy Daybell was exhumed, Alex was found dead in his home.

• 47:08Vanessa Richardson?

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• 48:54Vanessa Richardson?

  Authorities determined Lori's brother Alex died of natural causes. He apparently had a blood clot in his lungs, but they also found Narcan in his system, which is used to combat opioid overdoses. However, with no sign of foul play, investigators couldn't connect his death to anything nefarious.

• 49:16Vanessa Richardson?

  However, it was all adding up to something much darker. On December 20th, the FBI made a nationwide announcement that Tylee and JJ were missing. After several unsuccessful attempts to get Lori to reveal what happened to the children, they finally arrested her in Hawaii on February 20th, 2020. She was charged with two counts of felony desertion of a child, along with some other smaller offenses. When she couldn't make her million-dollar bail, she was held in prison. For the next few months, prosecutors built their case against Lori and continued to investigate Chad, particularly when it came to the death of his wife.

• 50:00Vanessa Richardson?

  And around May 2020, they found a suspicious text message as they went through Tammy's phone. Chad had sent it the previous September, shortly after the family went to Yellowstone National Park. In the message, he told Tammy he'd shot a raccoon that day. He said he burned its remains and buried them in the pet cemetery on their property. The message set off alarm bells, so they got a warrant to search the pet cemetery. But instead of an animal, they found JJ and Tylee's remains. While they searched, Chad, who had returned to Idaho to support Lori, tried to run, but he didn't get far.

• 50:42Vanessa Richardson?

  He was quickly caught and initially charged with two felony counts of concealment of destruction of evidence. Chad's arrest was the beginning of the end. It took a while to build the case, but in May 2021, Lori and Chad were charged with first-degree murder of her children, along with conspiracy to murder Chad's wife, Tammy. Lori was also charged with conspiring to murder Charles Vallow, which she would go on trial for after facing the charges related to her children and Tammy. According to their friend Melanie Gibb, Chad had convinced Lori that both Tylee and

• 51:21Vanessa Richardson?

  JJ's spirits were too dark to be redeemed, and because of that, she agreed they needed to die. According to investigators, JJ had been choked to death. When it came to Tylee, we still don't know how she died, because Lori and Chad had burned her remains in the fire pit.

• 51:42Tristin Engels?

  So once again, I've never met Lori, so I've never evaluated her. And everything I'm saying is for educational purposes only. But I want to recap and conceptualize Lori so that we can understand how a mother is capable of doing that to their children. So firstly, remember that Lori learned early on that it was acceptable as a parent to prioritize what you want over your children. And she certainly did that. She had five husbands. She moved her children around often. She engaged in parental alienation of her children, and she was desperate to rid herself of anyone who stood in her way. Based on what has been made public, including documentary footage, evidence, and video footage of Lori,

• 52:26Tristin Engels?

  she has a lot of traits of psychopathy. She is glib and superficially charming. We saw this with her interactions with law enforcement on multiple occasions in those documentaries. And all of those interactions were inappropriate, given the circumstances. She has a grandiose sense of self-worth, which is evident in her assertion that she is special and chosen and can talk to an angel. There's definitely pathological lying, mostly to her family and her followers, but lying about abuse, lying about disloyalty or unfaithfulness, all to manipulate other people. Which brings us into the next trait. She's cunning and manipulative. She appears to lack remorse or guilt. She's calloused. She has a parasitic lifestyle,

• 53:08Tristin Engels?

  which is constantly moving and seeking ways to financially exploit others, even through murder. She has poor behavioral control. Has she even ever expressed any realistic long-term goals? Because lacking those is also a trait of psychopathy. She's impulsive, irresponsible, does not accept responsibility for her actions, which is easy to do when she has everyone doing everything for her. And she has had many short-term marital relationships, as well as exhibiting histrionic traits. So Of the 20 known traits of psychopathy, it appears, just based on what we know, that she exhibits 16 of them. Again, this is not a formal opinion, because there is a lot more

• 53:53Tristin Engels?

  that goes into formally assessing for this, but it's worth discussing to understand how she would be capable of doing this. Lori was evaluated by at least one psychologist during her criminal proceeding, and she was diagnosed with a delusional disorder and an unspecified personality disorder with narcissistic and histrionic traits. But remember, psychopathy is not a diagnosis. It's a measurement of interpersonal and affective traits. I also understand that at one point, she was found incompetent and sent for restoration services. And I'm someone who does competency evaluations. So declaring her incompetent could have been done out of an abundance of caution. This case is very high profile, and the court is definitely going to want to ensure that there was no room for a mistrial.

• 54:38Tristin Engels?

  And that means maybe being conservative in the opinions that the psychologist would render. Since she does present with grandiose ideations and fantasies and hyperreligiosity, it's important to ensure that it doesn't affect her ability to rationally understand her criminal proceedings. Also, when someone is found incompetent, they are sent for restoration treatment, and typically that is at a state hospital, at least here in California. They have the resources to do a more thorough evaluation, because they have various psychological assessments at their disposal, and they're set up to do that. Whereas jails are not, which is where we commonly do these assessments. So sending them to restoration services can assist in diagnostic clarification.

• 55:22Tristin Engels?

  They also are able to observe her in different settings with different people, which can tell us a lot diagnostically, including if there's signs of malingering, especially with her delusions. Her early childhood experiences shaped her worldview and her personality. She has a pathological need for male attention and general admiration. The affective and interpersonal traits and those possible delusions all explain how she was capable of doing what she did.

• 55:52Vanessa Richardson?

  On May 12th, 2023, Lori was found guilty on all charges for her crimes against her children and Tammy Daybell. She was sentenced to life in prison without parole. Because of a procedural issue, the death penalty wasn't on the table, which meant this was the harshest sentence possible for Lori. Chad was also found guilty. However, he was sentenced to death. He's currently on death row in Idaho, where capital cases are automatically appealed. It will probably be years before there's an update. In the meantime, Lori remained in prison, but she couldn't or wouldn't admit to what she'd done.

• 56:34Vanessa Richardson?

  In March 2025, Dateline interviewed Lori in prison. She told Keith Morrison that she was just "misunderstood", she believed she would be exonerated, and once she was free, she might go on Dancing with the Stars. Even then, Lori acted like she was above human laws, which may be why she chose to represent herself when she went on trial for conspiring to kill Charles Daybell on March 31st, 2025. According to reports, she refused to take the proceedings seriously, spending most of her time smiling and laughing. But the jury wasn't amused. When it was time for them to deliberate on April 22nd,

• 57:17Vanessa Richardson?

  it only took them about three hours to find her guilty. And Lori's legal troubles aren't over yet. In June 2025, she'll go on trial for also conspiring to kill her niece's ex-husband. No matter what Lori and Chad told their followers, they aren't gods. They caused real damage to the people who loved them most, and after the apocalypse of their own making, there's no paradise waiting for them on the other side.

• 58:03Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another murderer.

• 58:09Tristin Engels?

  Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on social media at Crime House. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.

• 58:24Vanessa Richardson?

  And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Killer Minds ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting bonus content.

• 58:41Vanessa Richardson?

  Killer Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Killer Minds team: Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Sarah Kemp, Sarah Bachelor, Sheila Patterson, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening.

• 59:11Speaker 03

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