Should We Stay Married for the Sake of Our Kids?

🇺🇸 Watch United States of Anxiety Exclusively on the Free Ramsey Network App! On today’s episode, we hear about: · A couple wondering if staying married only for their children is the best idea · A woman struggling with fear of failure and finding a career · A woman seeking advice on how to move forward after a traumatic event Next Steps: 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John's Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors: 🌱 Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. 🌿 Get up to 40% off at Cozy Earth with code DELONY. 🔒 Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. 😇 Go to Hallow for a 90-day free trial. 💤 Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! 💪 Get 25% off your order at Thorne. 🥤 20% off at Organifi with code DELONY. · 🏔️ Head to Poncho Outdoors to check out all their styles! Listen to More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 💼 The Ken Coleman Show 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy https://www.ramseysolutions.com/company/policies/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  Instead of getting divorced, would staying married and being friends with my husband be helpful or more harmful to our four children?

• 0:13Dr. John Delony?

  I've come to hate that question, so tell me more. That question is very surfacey. So, I feel like there's something you're not telling me. Like, there's a thing beneath the thing. What am I missing here?

• 0:29Dr. John Delony?

  What up? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. So glad that you're with us. So glad, man. Every day I wake up and I'm like, "Man, I'm running a scam called a podcast and a YouTube show." It's so great that you're with us and helping me with my scam. We're talking about your mental and emotional health. We're talking about your relationships. For 20 years, I've been sitting in the messy lives of hurting people, trying to figure out what's the next right move. And now I get to do it on the internets with all of you. So grateful that you're with us. If you'll take one second, real quick, and just stop, collaborate, and hit subscribe, wherever you happen to be. It makes a huge difference. We're so close to the million subscriber mark.

• 1:14Dr. John Delony?

  And, man, every one of you guys, men and women who are out there who hit the subscribe button, it makes a huge difference. So, thank you so, so much. All right, let's roll out to Las Vegas, Nevada, home of the great Michael Easter. And we're gonna talk to Brittany. What's up, Brittany?

• 1:29Speaker 00

  Hi, Dr. John. Thank you so much for taking my call. I'm so excited to talk to you today. So, my question for you today is, instead of getting divorced, would staying married and being friends with my husband be helpful or more harmful to our four children?

• 1:46Dr. John Delony?

  Hmm. I've come to hate that question, so tell me more. And I'll explain, and it's not you. They don't hate you. I think you're wonderful. Good to meet you, Brittany.

• 1:56Speaker 00

  Nice to meet you.

• 1:58Dr. John Delony?

  I think, I think there's, that question is very surfacey. So, walk me through what's going on in your world.

• 2:04Speaker 00

  Okay, so um me and my husband, we've been married for twelve years. Uh right after I gave birth to our first child, my husband found himself addicted to pornography and looking at other women's social media profiles. So he would um kind of start a cycle of um looking at that for about a year and then he would secretly stop for a year. And then he would do like a trickle down confession to me over a few weeks. So we did that cycle like every year for nine years. So just a lot of um loss of trust and stuff over that time. Um.

• 2:41Dr. John Delony?

  But you're also like, one second, that's always symptomatic. So that also means you're married to somebody who is a shell of themself or who is, doesn't like the skin he inhabits, right?

• 2:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:54Dr. John Delony?

  Tell me about that guy.

• 2:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, so that guy, um, that guy, I think, never felt like he was good enough. He felt like all he just needed to provide to create this multimillion dollar financial estate for him and his family. And that all that mattered was money. And I needed just to be like the housewife for him and be perfect so that he could go do all the house or the finance stuff. Um, and then when I wasn't perfect, surprise, because we had four kids in six years.

• 3:35Speaker 00

  And I was tired and not making dinners every night really triggered him in this perfect world that he wanted. And I think he wasn't um confident in himself either very sexually. And um I just think overall, he just wasn't happy of who he was. But instead of taking all the blame, he would just put it on me. We kind of figured that out through therapy. So um, so yeah.

• 4:03Dr. John Delony?

  So you got four, you got four years, a decade plus, so including the time y'all dated, so you're going on a decade and a half-ish, right?

• 4:11Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 4:12Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, and y'all are considering calling it. Tell me about that.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  Um, so this last time that he came and confessed um of what he'd been looking at and stuff, I asked him if he could just move out. I needed some physical space. My body was like fight or flight mode. I was breaking out in rashes and I couldn't sleep at night. I just, my body just needed some like physical separation from him. And it was, and that was really good. I was able to just like come back down to myself. Um, and I just kind of realized, I don't, I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. And I felt like, at that time, I was like, I think I deserve to be treated a little bit better than this. And I don't want my daughters to settle to be treated not like a queen. And

• 5:02Speaker 00

  so I, I told him that, you know, after we've been doing therapy for a while, I just, I di- I just don't, um, I don't trust him and I don't, I've lost respect for him, which has made me not trust myself and lose respect for myself because I never know if he's telling the truth or if he's not. And, um, I just emotionally, I can't get back there with him. He's been doing great for three years. He's made so many changes. He's become the man I always wanted him to be and I'm so proud of him. And he's my best friend. But I just don't feel like I emotionally can get back to that point in a marriage with

• 5:47Speaker 00

  him. Um, it just feels like there's, there's just been too much deceit and hurt and emotional hurt from things he said. And, and so I, I just said, I want a divorce. And he said, over my dead body, I'm not doing that. And I said, okay, I, I would, I'd love to stay married and be friends and raise the kids. And he said, there's, that's a terrible thing to do to our children. And so, we're just kind of stuck in this place where

• 6:21Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 6:21Speaker 00

  we don't know where to go from here.

• 6:23Dr. John Delony?

  I feel like pornography's a distraction here.

• 6:28Dr. John Delony?

  And I feel like because it's sexualized and because it's a form of betrayal, it's easy to put everything on top of that. But you've been married to a guy that you have been a figurine in his action figure fantasy.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:48Dr. John Delony?

  Y'all have never truly been a partnership. And if I hear you correctly, so tell me if I'm wrong,

• 6:56Dr. John Delony?

  three years ago, he said enough is enough. And he stopped treating you as a figurine and he started getting to the bottom of why he was hurting so much and you stayed. And in fact, y'all made another kid together. And he has, in your exact words, become the man of your dreams. But now you're choosing to not reengage.

• 7:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:19Dr. John Delony?

  That doesn't sound like, because it sounds like he has, for three years, 36 months, it sounds like he has healed the trust. It sounds like he is doing the things, he's becoming the husband that you fantasized him becoming. The words, "I can't get there," I don't think that's true. You can choose to not get there.

• 7:39Dr. John Delony?

  And in a strange twist, you can choose to leave your marriage. You can make that choice, you're a grown up.

• 7:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:46Dr. John Delony?

  But the phrase, "I just can't get there," I don't buy it. Did something happen recently for you to call? Or is it just at the end of three years, you're just like, nah?

• 7:56Speaker 00

  Or just every few weeks, just getting in a fight of, he says that, "Okay, let's just stay married and be friends." Like, "I want, I want you and my, and the kids in my life." And I'm like, "Great." And then things are going great and we're great best friends. We have a lot of fun together. And, and then after a few weeks, he blows up and says a lot of mean things. And, and then the next day.

• 8:19Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, well then don't say he's the man of your dreams now, because that's not true.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  He's 90%.

• 8:28Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, and, and the whole, like, my daughters deserve to be treated as queens. I don't buy that either. Your daughters deserve to have somebody that they co-create a world with together. And yes, treated right and, um, supported and loved and provided for and also equally heard and equally have a seat at the table, like, all of that stuff, right?

• 8:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:52Dr. John Delony?

  Um, so the reason I don't like, the reason the, like, the, should we stay together for the kids, or is it better just to get divorced? That, that presupposes a foregone conclusion. One or both of us have quit the marriage. We're done. So is it better for us to just stay together, done? Or is it better for us to get divorced? My answer to that is always neither. The best thing is, is to rebuild something totally new. So that's best choice. The next choice, no. Teaching your kids that, um, we're just gonna be friends and we're gonna have people on the side and we're gonna, like, that's never a good option.

• 9:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:35Dr. John Delony?

  This is gonna be about ego and this is gonna be about fantasy and this is gonna be about blowing up pictures, this is gonna be about blame, this is gonna be about splitting estates, it's gonna be a big ol' mess.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:46Dr. John Delony?

  Um, so no, none of this will be quote-unquote "good" for your kids. I'd say an environment where kids feel that two, the two adults in our house are acting very childish.

• 9:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:58Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 9:59Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 9:59Dr. John Delony?

  And so in a perfect world, y'all swipe the deck clean. If you're saying, "I don't wanna do that anymore," or, "We've swiped the deck clean three times, four times, five times, and he keeps, um, blowing his side of the table up, and so I'm gonna end this marriage," own that step. I just don't like the, uh, uh, 'cause our culture says words like, "Well, this marriage just ran its course." I just don't buy that. I just can't get back there. I'm gonna choose to not do those things. I'm gonna choose that, and that's okay. Make your choice. But it's, I want it to be something that everybody owns, not this inevitable, "Well, it just is what it is, what it is." You get what I'm saying?

• 10:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yep, totally.

• 10:39Dr. John Delony?

  So, you standing tall and saying, "I deserve to not have 10 years of somebody cheat on me. I deserve 10 years of not being gaslit and yelled and screamed at in my own house."

• 10:53Dr. John Delony?

  I deserve to not be a action figure in somebody's fantasy life. Where they're gonna have all this money and I'm gonna be a trophy. And oh my gosh, my body changed because I have four kids, four of your kids, by the way. And now suddenly I'm less than, I'm not good. I'm worth less. So I feel like there's something you're not telling me. Like there's a thing beneath the thing. What am I missing here?

• 11:16Speaker 00

  No, it just kind of feels like.

• 11:19Dr. John Delony?

  Do you have somebody new?

• 11:21Speaker 00

  No, no, no, no, no, not at all.

• 11:23Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  I'm so tired.

• 11:24Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Does, does, does.

• 11:31Dr. John Delony?

  Does his changes alter the dynamic of your marriage to a point where you feel uncomfortable?

• 11:39Speaker 00

  It feels uncomfortable because he's being so nice and so giving and wanting to serve me and everything. And it makes me feel really uncomfortable because he's never done that. So it's like, wait, what's gonna be the ulterior motive? Like what, like what's he gonna come later tonight and be like, I freaking did the dishes. So whatever, you know, and, and he doesn't now, but it just, because that's how it was for so long. It still feels like it. And it feels like if I just forgive and we move on and create a happy life. It feels kind of like a slap in the face to myself.

• 12:21Speaker 00

  It feels like I'm like, you idiot, you got treated like garbage and you're just like, said, it's okay. Let's keep moving on. And it's like, it's been really hard for me to get past that of being like, no, like stand up for yourself. And don't like, you deserve, I don't know. I don't know how to explain it.

• 12:46Dr. John Delony?

  It sounds like you've identified forgiveness and new growth as you lost, as a one loss.

• 12:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, it does feel like that, which is awful. I like, it's not a win or lose thing at all. I don't know why it feels like.

• 13:06Dr. John Delony?

  Cause I can imagine his side. He's treated you bad for five, six, seven, nine years. And finally, his whole world blows up and he's like, I'm ready to make the changes. And he's trying to follow the path you cut for him. And again, I don't want to defend the guy. I don't know the guy. But it sounds like y'all made a plan together. Y'all been going to therapy for three years and you made a plan. And he's following the plan. And now you don't like the kindness. Tell me what, tell me what you really want.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  I, I just wanna like, be truly happy and feel safe and not feel on guard. And I just, I just deal with him. And I, I don't know how to not feel that anymore. Just feel like I can just fully, um.

• 13:55Dr. John Delony?

  Rest in him.

• 13:56Speaker 00

  Feel, yeah. I don't, I, I just feel like I'm always on guard and I'm always so tense and anxious. And I'm just like waiting for the, the ball to drop. And it hasn't. And, and he's proved that. And, but I, I just like, okay, but it will. When will that be?

• 14:14Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  And.

• 14:15Dr. John Delony?

  So here, here's the scary thing. Here's the scary thing. Number one, I just want to tell you, I think you're brave. I think you've been working hard. And if, if, if your, your story is to be trusted, and I always trust people who call the show. Um, not always, most of the time. Um, he's been working his butt off too. Fair?

• 14:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:36Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. The only way you ever find out if this is for real is if you risk getting hurt again. I, here's, here's why I'm, I'm pushing around the edges. I don't, I don't hear somebody that wants to be divorced. I hear somebody that's so freaking tired of not having their home be a place of peace. Be fully honest with me. What is it that still makes you feel unsafe? Does your gut know that he's still cheating on you?

• 15:05Speaker 00

  I feel like my gut thinks that he's not, but my brain is like, "You idiot, he lied for 10 years. You can't trust what you think."

• 15:16Dr. John Delony?

  Have you laid out on a map for him the things that you still need to do to make sure trust is secure?

• 15:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, he's deleted all his social media and...

• 15:30Dr. John Delony?

  Do you look at his phone?

• 15:32Speaker 00

  Occasionally, but I don't like doing that.

• 15:35Dr. John Delony?

  I know you don't. None of us like doing the things that we gotta do to rebuild trust. It's one of the worst things. But I'm asking you, what would it take to rebuild trust? What's the roadmap there?

• 15:48Speaker 00

  I mean, I think it's just more time. It's just consistency.

• 15:53Dr. John Delony?

  And you don't feel like he has that right now, or 90% of it, and then he gets upset and frustrated because he's working so hard and it's just not enough?

• 16:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, he does. He... That's why I feel so bad, is he's working so hard and I just wish that I could get that trust back right like that. And it's just, I don't know exactly how, because he's done and changed and done all the things that I've asked him to, so...

• 16:21Dr. John Delony?

  I don't know the ins and outs, so you and I could talk for a couple of hours on what you've endured over the last 10 years, okay?

• 16:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:28Dr. John Delony?

  So I can't make the call for you. If you choose to end your marriage,

• 16:33Dr. John Delony?

  I want you to stand up and throw your shoulders back and say, "I am ending this marriage." Take ownership, okay?

• 16:40Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 16:41Dr. John Delony?

  If you listen to the words you just said and you said, "No, no, no, I think we can make something beautiful", and you've got 12 months, 24 months, 36 months of a changed guy, and I say this with all respect, I would not do this show if I didn't believe in redemption.

• 16:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:58Dr. John Delony?

  And I know that's easy to be like, "They never change." I would not do this show if I didn't think people could change. So 36 months, three years.

• 17:06Dr. John Delony?

  Okay?

• 17:08Dr. John Delony?

  I think there's time for a symbolic moment. What I mean by that is you write him a letter that says, um...

• 17:17Dr. John Delony?

  I'm going all in again, and if you hurt me, you're gonna kill me. And then you begin to practice peace. And don't lose sight of your gut, and don't lose sight of the things that you need to feel trust in your own home, to feel peace. But I think y'all have been solving for pornography, you've been solving for friendship, you've been solving for, "I did the dishes, so we have to have sex." You've been solving for, "You need to go to the gym, you're not, you need to tighten your body back up after four," right? You've been dealing with all that crap?

• 17:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:46Dr. John Delony?

  But beneath that, I want you to begin to solve for peace. What must be true for me to go into my own home and drop my shoulders? I know I'm a stay-at-home mom, we're gonna have a house cleaner, cuz I need some help. I know I'm a stay-at-home mom, I'm gonna hire two high school kids to come over and play with the kids, Monday through Friday, cuz I need human interaction with adults. I'm going crazy, I'm lonely. So here's what I don't want you to do, I don't want you to get off the phone and say, "Well, this man told me I have to," fill in the blank. I want you to hear the opposite. "This man told me to get off the phone."

• 18:30Dr. John Delony?

  And I'm finally gonna exhale in my own house again.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, that sounds great.

• 18:38Dr. John Delony?

  And for the first time, I'm gonna stop trying to moderate his behavior like I'm his mom. I am gonna begin to solve for peace in my house. Here's what peace looks like and feels like. Brittany, you call anytime. Tell your husband to call me too. I'd be to talk to him as well. All right, let's go out to Quebec, Canada. Hey, and talk to Lynn. What's up, Lynn?

• 19:00Speaker 02

  So, my question is, how do I fully commit to something academically for the first time?

• 19:08Dr. John Delony?

  What are you trying to commit to?

• 19:10Speaker 02

  Uh, university. But basically, I've just had a lot of trouble with trying to find my career path. You know, I'm 26, and I've kind of started and quit a lot of things. And, um, I just really wanna follow through this time.

• 19:29Dr. John Delony?

  What does that mean?

• 19:32Speaker 02

  Um, I don't know. I've been listening to the show for like a year and I've been waiting to hear someone with a question similar to mine.

• 19:39Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  And it hasn't come up. But I have heard spouses of people, um, like me, talking and they're complaining about how, um, sort of, uh, you know, their stuff doesn't have any dreams or ambitions and they're just kind of floating. So, yeah, that's kind of how I feel, how I am right now.

• 20:02Dr. John Delony?

  If you don't know where you want to go and you don't know what you want to do and you don't, more importantly, um, again, I think, like, finding your passion, I think that's idiotic. That's a, that's a terrible thing to start out with. Um, I think a, a better thing to do is to seek out, who can I help? Who can I serve? And if it is, I can be the best waiter for exhausted families after six o'clock PM, I'm gonna do that while I figure out what's going on. Or I want to be a therapist, or I want to build bridges, or I want to, like, I called a guy yesterday to fix the gutters on my house. Dude was amazing. He's, he's on time. He, um, said, I'll get you a quote by this afternoon. He got me a quote by this afternoon. It was a fair quote. Like, that dude's giving me

• 20:45Dr. John Delony?

  a lot of peace in my house. He's taking care of my largest investment, which is my home, right? So, whatever, whatever it is you, you, whoever it is you want to help, is a good driver. I would not spend the money on university to stumble around and quote-unquote, "find your path."

• 21:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:03Dr. John Delony?

  Because I think you can find yourself in a whole bunch of debt, you can find yourself with a whole bunch of credits and be like, "Yeah, stupid."

• 21:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's also kind of a big fear and why I haven't really started anything yet.

• 21:16Dr. John Delony?

  So what do you love?

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Um, kids. I've been a nanny for six years.

• 21:22Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  And so, I'm planning on taking child studies and there's quite a few things I can do with that. I think it's just more the fear of school and, um...

• 21:34Dr. John Delony?

  Why don't you want to be a nanny anymore?

• 21:37Speaker 02

  I really enjoy it. I think it's just the economy right now is kind of making it tough. I can't really find and keep a job at this point.

• 21:47Dr. John Delony?

  You can't find a job or you can't keep, you mean you keep not showing up or doing a good job? Or people have to let you go because they don't have the money to keep paying a nanny?

• 21:56Speaker 02

  No, I've been doing a great job. I've just been let go three times this year. So time to move on.

• 22:01Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, good call. And dude, so it sounds like you've got a path.

• 22:08Dr. John Delony?

  What are you nervous about?

• 22:11Speaker 02

  I don't know. I've never, like, growing up, I never saw myself going to college, university. It's not really something that anybody in my family ever really had money for.

• 22:21Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  And I, yeah, I never, you know, when kids in high school were talking about it, I just never pictured myself there.

• 22:28Dr. John Delony?

  Did you know that one of the people that was my dissertation advisor, one of my first ones for my first PhD, person was, was let go?

• 22:38Dr. John Delony?

  And the person who became my advisor told me that, and she was an amazing woman, Dr. Jacob, she's just awesome. But she told me that she was given a list of students and mine was at the top of them, of students who wouldn't make it. Would never finish.

• 22:56Dr. John Delony?

  Flighty. Just kind of all over the place, not going to do it. Did you know I was at the top of that list that they, that they handed her?

• 23:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, we sound similar.

• 23:08Dr. John Delony?

  Lynn, I didn't see it either, man. And I ended up with not one, but two PhDs.

• 23:15Dr. John Delony?

  And now I help a whole bunch of people after spending my whole life trying to avoid the internets.

• 23:20Dr. John Delony?

  So here's, here's the thing that has given me life. And you and I, dude, we sound very similar, okay? By the time I was 26, I had multiple jobs and they were good jobs. They were careers for people. And I was going from thing to thing to thing. But here's, here's what always was the north star. I liked helping students. I like helping people.

• 23:43Dr. John Delony?

  And if you love being with kids, then think of university not as, "I'm going to university." Think of university as, "I'm going to go get some concrete skills.

• 23:56Dr. John Delony?

  How I can better help young people."

• 24:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:00Dr. John Delony?

  Because I want to serve kids. I want to be there for them. I want to teach moms how to do that job well.

• 24:09Dr. John Delony?

  And maybe I'll open a daycare. Maybe I'll work at a daycare. Maybe I'll become a child psychologist one day. Maybe I'll have a YouTube show one day.

• 24:17Dr. John Delony?

  But like, the thing that has given me peace throughout my life is to follow the next right thing.

• 24:25Dr. John Delony?

  And if you've been laid off three times because of the economy, people think, say, man, you are amazing. I just can't afford you right now. I'm so sorry. And then somebody gobble snaps you up and they're like, oh, thank God, we, we got you, Lynn. And then they have to let you go because they get laid off for their hours, get cut or whatever. You're so wise to not just keep banging your head on the, on the like, whoa, what? You're doing the next right thing. I'm gonna go get some skills.

• 24:49Dr. John Delony?

  And maybe you work with a different demographic. So you're not, you're not a nanny in somebody's house, but you're working at like a low income daycare.

• 25:01Dr. John Delony?

  And you're getting some skills with a different set of people who need some help.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:07Dr. John Delony?

  You get what I'm, you get what I'm saying? I think you're on the right path.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I'm just lacking the confidence for some reason.

• 25:15Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, here's what, here's what sucks about confidence. You have to go through it to get it.

• 25:21Dr. John Delony?

  And that's probably the greatest lie of your generation. Is that confidence is something that somebody else can give you that you can go use in the world. Confidence can only be found inside your chest after you've done a thing.

• 25:37Dr. John Delony?

  So if you want to get confidence, and by the way, I can, I just by listening to you, you've been told you can't your whole life, haven't you?

• 25:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 25:46Dr. John Delony?

  Your whole freaking life. And yet you keep showing up to work and you keep doing a good job. And people are telling you, no, you can, and you can, and you can. And you're beginning to go, dude, I think I can. And you're at war with those voices.

• 26:03Dr. John Delony?

  Because the voices, those stories that people make up about you and they told you all your life, over time, they become the stories you tell yourself. And the stories you've been telling yourself about, "I'm just not that kind of person. I'm just not a university kind of person. I don't need to do that. I'm, I'm just like, uh, I'm just a nanny. It's all I'm ever gonna be," is crashing into people who are paying you, "Hey, I trust you to be with my kids when I'm gone. You do a great job." And so you've got two competing stories. And the only way to find out the truth is take the next right step.

• 26:36Dr. John Delony?

  So if you're my, if you're my daughter, if you're my sister, if you were a close friend of mine, I would tell you two things. I would tell you to go get a job at a local daycare center if you can, even if it's way less than you normally make, because you are still in the skills acquisition phase. You're building confidence, not just because you can deal with wealthy people's kids. You can work with anybody's kids with any kind of struggles and you can only learn how to do that by just going to do it. So I'm gonna take long hours. I'm gonna work really hard and I'm gonna start taking some university classes so I can get some credence. Hang on the line. I'm gonna send you a copy of Own Your Past, Change Your Future. It's, it's your arc. I wrote that book for you. I'm gonna give you

• 27:19Dr. John Delony?

  a free copy of it, alright? But go get a job, go get a, uh, eight to five job, clocking in, making half of what you've been making, a third of what you've been making, to learn some new skills. You're still in the investment phase. And go take a couple of classes on child studies. Get something that will lead to a certification, not just mindless family study, like, that's gonna lead you to a certification that you can use in the marketplace. Go pick up those skills. Kids are gonna be lucky that you did. We'll be right back.

• 27:52Dr. John Delony?

  Alright, hey, listen, I'm excited to share three major updates. I'm, uh, my show is put out by the Ramsey Network and there is a new Ramsey Network app. So first, the newest episode of my docu-series, United States of Anxiety, is available. It's available exclusively in the Ramsey Network app and it follows real people from my show as they embark on a 90-day journey to transform their lives and I personally walk alongside them. Everybody always wonders like, Does this stuff actually work over time? So this is the show, it's just like calling my bluff. I walk with somebody for 90 days, give them homework assignments. It's the show lived out over three months and we watched people transform and it's amazing. And my full show is now in video, it's on video in the app.

• 28:36Dr. John Delony?

  And the episodes of the Dr. John Deloney Show, if you just can't wait, you just can't wait. They're now available a week early in the Ramsey Network app. So you can get everything early, exclusive and for free. Click in the link, click on the link in the show notes and you can download the Ramsey Network app today. All right, let's go out to Asheville, North Carolina and talk to Katie. Hey Katie, what's up?

• 28:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, so my question is, is how do you cope with anxiety and panic attacks while still processing grief and a constant impending feeling of doom after going through a regional, national disaster?

• 29:14Dr. John Delony?

  Oh man, your body's telling you the truth. You make peace with your body.

• 29:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:21Dr. John Delony?

  Did you lose everything?

• 29:23Speaker 00

  Um, thankfully I did not. Um, we had some minor damage at my home, um, a lot of damage in our neighborhood, but our home and my immediate family is safe, yeah.

• 29:31Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. So have you sat out in the front yard, look around and ask why me?

• 29:37Speaker 00

  Um, yes and no. Um, I think I've kind of been through a lot in the past and I've kind of come to terms with it. Like I'm not special or above that things happening to me personally. And it's kind of a part of life, things happen. Um, but I know that's definitely being felt by a lot of people in my area. Um, and it's definitely something that can still definitely be a struggle day in and day out, seeing the suffering around consistently.

• 30:07Dr. John Delony?

  So, um, I think the first thing I want you to do is to stop going to war with your body.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 30:14Dr. John Delony?

  You should feel anxious for a season.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 30:17Dr. John Delony?

  Your whole, your whole city is gone.

• 30:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:21Dr. John Delony?

  Right? That beautiful downtown district, one of my favorite places in the United States. It's gone, doesn't exist anymore.

• 30:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:29Dr. John Delony?

  Your body should be anxious. A show just released yesterday when we're recording this, or released, yeah, Monday, with the great David Kessler, it's a two-part series and I want you to listen to that.

• 30:39Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 30:40Dr. John Delony?

  The thing that most people skip in this process is grief.

• 30:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:45Dr. John Delony?

  Just being sad.

• 30:48Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, absolutely, and I think the grief aspect, I'm glad you mentioned that part, um, cause I did, my grandfather did pass away in the middle of the storm.

• 30:57Dr. John Delony?

  Good gosh, well, slow down, hold on, hold on, start with that first. What's, what's his name?

• 31:01Speaker 00

  Sorry. Um, his name was William, yeah.

• 31:05Dr. John Delony?

  Good guy?

• 31:05Speaker 00

  And, um, very good guy, yeah.

• 31:07Dr. John Delony?

  How did he pass away?

• 31:10Speaker 00

  Um, they put cardiac arrest on his death certificate, um, induced probably stress from the storm.

• 31:16Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 31:17Speaker 00

  Um, he was in the, between, like where he lived was between two of the massive landslides you probably will hear about on the news. Um, so we were actually not able to access him at all, um, to find out if he was okay, um, and his wife during the storm. Um, I was able to talk to someone via like a Starlink during the whole mess of things in the first few days and someone on foot got to his house to confirm that him and his wife were safe. Um, and then that night, we got a phone call via satellite phone, um, from first responders that he had gone into stress cardiac arrest and had passed.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  Um, so that grief side of thing is like when the panic actually started, I think. Um, just not knowing how to process the loss of a grandparent on top of knowing that, um, not even getting up to his house at the time was possible, um, unless he returned. Yes.

• 32:20Dr. John Delony?

  He didn't pass away because of you.

• 32:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:25Dr. John Delony?

  It's not a thing you could have done.

• 32:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:29Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, and I know you're in great shape and you're a good runner and you're probably a little bit of a, of an Asheville prepper, like they all are in Asheville, which I love them for it.

• 32:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:38Dr. John Delony?

  What happened is your community got hit by a bomb.

• 32:42Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:43Dr. John Delony?

  There's not a plan for when a meteorite hits. And that's what happened to y'all.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  That's what it feels like, yeah.

• 32:50Dr. John Delony?

  No, it's exactly what happened, okay?

• 32:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think we're having a hard time coming to terms with that. We're kind of in denial.

• 32:56Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, and, and, and most planners are.

• 33:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:00Dr. John Delony?

  And the people I know in Asheville, um, I know there's an extraordinary, just magical arts district in Asheville, but my friends who live there.

• 33:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:10Dr. John Delony?

  In an ironic twist of fate, picked Asheville because it's, it feels disconnected from the world.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:17Dr. John Delony?

  This is our haven, away from all you crazy people.

• 33:23Speaker 00

  It's a pretty great place.

• 33:24Dr. John Delony?

  It, it is, but it's not supposed to happen there.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  No, it's not. Yeah, not, they're supposed to protect you from the storms.

• 33:31Dr. John Delony?

  That's right. That's why we moved here, so that y'all suckers would have the storms. Um, here's, I don't want you to think about managing this.

• 33:41Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 33:41Dr. John Delony?

  And I want you to think about processing this.

• 33:44Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 33:45Dr. John Delony?

  I want you to think about just being real sad.

• 33:48Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 33:49Dr. John Delony?

  You lost your granddad.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:51Dr. John Delony?

  In his final moments were protecting your grandmother.

• 33:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:54Dr. John Delony?

  What an awesome guy.

• 33:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure.

• 33:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:59Dr. John Delony?

  And I want you to process, I lost my city, I lost my town, I lost vibrancy, I lost the heartbeat.

• 34:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:05Dr. John Delony?

  Of a magical little mountain community.

• 34:08Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

• 34:10Dr. John Delony?

  We're not gonna manage that, we're not gonna pro, yeah, we're not gonna process this, we're gonna be really sad.

• 34:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:16Dr. John Delony?

  And some of that might be, I'm gonna write my granddad a letter.

• 34:20Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 34:21Dr. John Delony?

  Tell him what he meant to me, how much I love him.

• 34:23Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:24Dr. John Delony?

  If I'm feeling real gangster, I'm gonna read it to my grandmother and to my mom and my dad. If I'm, if I'm real, real gangster, everybody in my family's gonna write granddad a letter and we're all gonna read them to each other.

• 34:36Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 34:37Dr. John Delony?

  As David Kessler says, grief demands a witness. You can't just get in your house and figure this out by yourself.

• 34:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think that's one of the tricky parts of all of this was that in the initial week or two that I didn't have power or cell service, there was no getting to mom and dad's house, there was no getting to granddad's house, there was no contacting family members.

• 34:59Dr. John Delony?

  Right.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  There was, it was kind of very isolating.

• 35:03Dr. John Delony?

  Kind of very, it was completely cut off from civilization.

• 35:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:08Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 35:09Speaker 00

  We were pretty much cut off, yeah.

• 35:10Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, and there's a weird feeling, there's a strain. I grew up in Houston where there's hurricanes and things go like...

• 35:15Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:15Dr. John Delony?

  There is a unmooring feeling when you're in the 21st century surrounded by cars and air conditioners and you, your stomach drops and you're like, oh, we're on our own.

• 35:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, we were basically an island.

• 35:29Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 35:29Speaker 00

  In the section of town that I live in, culverts were out, our road for our neighborhood was out, it was completely inaccessible. I mean, I have two small kids and I think a huge part of the anxiety that I'm facing now is if this happens again, like, we could not get in touch with pediatricians, we could not get emergency care. And thank God we were okay in that moment, but not everybody was. And there's also like a significant amount of survivor's guilt.

• 35:59Dr. John Delony?

  That's right. That's what I talk about, you go out in the front yard looking around and being like, why me?

• 36:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:03Dr. John Delony?

  Why do we make it?

• 36:04Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 36:05Dr. John Delony?

  So what most people never talk about, and it's not culturally cool to talk about, and again, David Kessler talks about in that episode, I want you to go check it out.

• 36:13Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 36:13Dr. John Delony?

  Is post-traumatic growth.

• 36:18Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 36:19Dr. John Delony?

  We don't realize on this side of the hurt how much stronger we can be on the other side if we will sit in the sadness, we will honor the grief.

• 36:30Dr. John Delony?

  We won't go to war with our bodies trying not to feel anxious and masking anxiety with pills and drugs and running and all that. We're gonna... I'm gonna be sad. I'm gonna be heartbroken. And there's something powerful about recognizing, "I thought I had every variable under control, and I didn't realize how tightly I was gripping the world."

• 36:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:51Dr. John Delony?

  At any moment, it can rain and just not stop raining. And my kids can't see a... And here's the thing that happens. Your hands open up.

• 37:01Speaker 00

  Right.

• 37:02Dr. John Delony?

  Some people will respond to this by tightening even more every variable in their life, and they will suffocate themselves to death.

• 37:10Speaker 00

  Right.

• 37:11Dr. John Delony?

  Others will open their hands and say, "I'm gonna do the next right thing." I want you to write a letter to the storm.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 37:21Dr. John Delony?

  And I want you to acknowledge what that storm took from you.

• 37:26Dr. John Delony?

  How indiscriminate her damage was.

• 37:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:31Dr. John Delony?

  And then I want you to let that storm know, "Here's who I'm going to become as a mom, as a wife, as a citizen of this community. Here's what you've unleashed in me and my house."

• 37:41Speaker 00

  Right.

• 37:42Dr. John Delony?

  Okay?

• 37:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 37:45Dr. John Delony?

  And if you can get a couple of your weird Asheville friends, my favorite people in the world, if you can get a couple of your weird Asheville friends, I want y'all to all write letters to storms. And by the way, if you're in Nebraska, give me a letter to the storm. Asheville people, y'all understand writing letters to storms. I know. I want you all to write letters to storms, and I want you all to read them to each other. I want you all to process this. I say process. I want you all to be in this together. Tell the stories. Tell the stories.

• 38:10Dr. John Delony?

  And put a new picture in your head about what's gonna be. My heart's broken for your family and the loss of your life with your granddad. What an amazing guy, who was protecting people till the end. Thanks for the call, sister. We'll be right back.

• 38:26Dr. John Delony?

  All right, we are back. All right, Kelly, you got a email, an internet communication, they call it.

• 38:32Speaker 03

  Yes, got this. Actually, while we were doing the show, this is from Ashley in California. She says, "Hello, Dr. John and team. I wanted to say thank you for the amazing David Kessler interview."

• 38:41Dr. John Delony?

  God, that guy's so good, man.

• 38:42Speaker 03

  Yep. "I know it's just the first half, but I took notes as you suggested, and I have found it so inspiring. Even though I am not in grief now, I think all of the moments I've been in, I've been in deep grief and recognize that I'll be there again in the future is just inevitable. I have a whiteboard in my kitchen and wrote some of his quotes on it that really inspired me. Thank you for everything you and everyone on the Ramsey team does. You're truly changing lives. That's something I believe, as humans, we all hope to do, even in the smallest way, and you helped do that. We're also going to post a picture on YouTube of the board."

• 39:13Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, that's cool. She sent it in. Very cool.

• 39:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's got "Make this moment count. It's a gift that doesn't belong to us. Feelings are data, information, and knowledge. No feeling is a fact. No feeling is final. Freedom is only found in real life. And, um, don't fight reality because it was all always win." Yep, she wrote it on those boards. So for people that want to know the second half of the Kessler interview, will be out on December 23rd.

• 39:40Dr. John Delony?

  Ooh, two days before Christmas.

• 39:42Speaker 03

  Right. Merry Christmas, people.

• 39:43Dr. John Delony?

  If you're sitting there at your in-law's house, and you're like, "I wish I was not here. I'm in grief." We got you.

• 39:49Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 39:49Dr. John Delony?

  We got you.

• 39:50Speaker 03

  And the second half is more tactical.

• 39:51Dr. John Delony?

  Like, what to do, right?

• 39:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, like, "Here's some things you can start doing now," kind of thing. So it's great.

• 39:57Dr. John Delony?

  We have had a run of, uh, guests where I leave, and I'm different when I leave.

• 40:05Speaker 03

  Oh, 100%.

• 40:06Dr. John Delony?

  Arthur Brooks, Carlos.

• 40:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, Carlos Whitaker, that one's one coming up. Beck, Andy Young, ton of them.

• 40:13Dr. John Delony?

  Like, I just leave, and I'm like, "All right, I'm gonna make some changes in my life."

• 40:15Speaker 03

  And we've got some pretty exciting ones coming up that we won't talk about, but right now...

• 40:19Dr. John Delony?

  We do.

• 40:20Speaker 03

  But they're gonna be coming up after the first of the year.

• 40:21Dr. John Delony?

  So rad. All right, everybody, um, check out that interview if you haven't checked out the interview with David Kessler. Go check it out. Download the Ramsey app, and please, go to the Youtubes and hit the subscribe button. It helps us out. Love you, guys. Stay in school. Don't do drugs. Peace.