Can we use zero point energy?

Daniel and Kelly explain the nature of the quantum vacuum, whether its real or philosophical, and if it's possible to use to make your toast. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Daniel Whiteson?

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• 2:18Daniel Whiteson?

  Energy is everywhere, but yet we struggle to extract it and make use of it. It's not just stars burning with fusion or the vast amounts of energy locked up inside matter. Our current understanding of space indicates that empty space itself has energy. Is this real? Is this something we can harness? On the fringes, there are people willing to sell you devices that extract energy from space to make your toast. Should you buy one? Could that possibly ever be real? Could we use it? Or might we be trapped like thirsty sailors? Energy everywhere, but not a drop to use. Today on the pod, we'll tackle the conspiracy magnet, but fascinating physics of zero-point

• 3:03Daniel Whiteson?

  energy. Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe.

• 3:21Kelly Weinersmith?

  Hello, I'm Kelly Wiener-Smith. I study parasites and space, and there are just some points in the week where I have zero energy.

• 3:31Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's what we're talking about today, right?

• 3:33Daniel Whiteson?

  Good point. Good point, yes. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I have zero energy for physics grifters.

• 3:42Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh, yeah. So on the topic of physics grifters today, do you have a like most outrageous grift that you have ever seen that is physics related? Or is it the one we're talking about today?

• 3:56Daniel Whiteson?

  I think zero-point energy has got to be in my top five. There are actually folks out there who will sell you over-unity machines for $50,000 that, you know, produce energy from nothing, and obviously they're a scam. But the thing that really irks me is that the real physics here is so interesting, so fascinating, so cutting-edge, and the grifters pollute all that to make a little bit of a buck. They could promote the actual science, the mysteries, the things we have figured out, the work that's going on, the excitement of future discoveries. But no, they're going to pretend the government is hiding something, and they're going to sell you the secrets.

• 4:34Kelly Weinersmith?

  You're such a wonderful nerd. It's not they're taking people's money. It's they're missing out on the science. And I'm with you. I'm with you. It's a bummer. But you said it's in your top five. Can you give us one other that's in your top five? I know I'm pressing you. This is, it's, it's great. The way I don't give you a heads up ahead of time before asking me these questions.

• 4:54Daniel Whiteson?

  My other favorite one is the alleged grift that physicists are the grifters because we're just collecting grant money, getting rich. Everybody knows how easy that is while doing nothing, right? We just sit around all day. We could discover dark matter if we wanted to, but we're too lazy because we've been sucking off the government teat for so many years. When of course, in reality, we're all like scrambling to get a small fraction of a dwindling amount of research money. And everybody in academia is overworked, if anything, and underpaid. So it's pretty frustrating to see people try to make a buck off of accusing academics of being grifters.

• 5:34Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, yeah. Or maybe all are just really bad at the grift.

• 5:39Kelly Weinersmith?

  Bad at, you know, getting money from the government. I can't bring myself to say the sucking on the government. Moving on, moving on.

• 5:47Daniel Whiteson?

  That was a farm reference. That was a farm reference.

• 5:49Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, I know. I know. I should be way more comfortable with that. And, and my goat still hasn't given birth. Those were.

• 5:57Daniel Whiteson?

  I was gonna ask you for the farm update. No, nothing?

• 5:59Kelly Weinersmith?

  No, no, those were like Braxton Hicks contractions in goats or something, but she prolapsed and I had to deal with that. And it's been all kinds of fun on the farm, but she has not had her babies yet.

• 6:09Daniel Whiteson?

  Okay. So you won't say teat, but you will say prolapse on the air. Nice. Your standards are weird, Kelly.

• 6:17Kelly Weinersmith?

  Well, you know, that's right. That's right. Yay, biology.

• 6:22Daniel Whiteson?

  Welcome to Kelly's Farm Grift. I don't know how it works yet, but we'll find out.

• 6:26Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay, good luck. I am also working too hard and getting paid. Actually, I'm losing money. I'm losing money on this grift. But anyway, okay. Today, today we are talking about zero point energy. And as Daniel pointed out, there is amazing physics happening here.

• 6:43Daniel Whiteson?

  There really is.

• 6:43Kelly Weinersmith?

  And a horrible grift. So we're going to get into both.

• 6:47Daniel Whiteson?

  Exactly, because my goal is to share with everyone the actual science going on on the cutting edge, which is so much more interesting than the nonsense being spread by the grifters. So let's share the reality with everyone, the joy of uncertainty, the excitement of future discovery. And zero point energy is right in the sweet spot because there is so much exciting science, so much we don't understand about how it works. But before we dig into this episode, I wanted to know if people out there thought it was possible to make use of zero point energy. If you'd like to join our group of volunteers to answer without any preparation tough physics questions for other people to hear, please write to us to questions at danielandkelly.org. We'd love to have

• 7:30Daniel Whiteson?

  you. In the meantime, here's what people had to say when I asked them if they could make use of zero point energy.

• 7:37Speaker 07

  Zero point energy is the lowest energy state. The vacuum of the universe has some energy in it, and theoretically, we could use this energy and convert it into useful work.

• 7:49Speaker 08

  It could possibly be useful in mechanical quantum systems.

• 7:54Speaker 09

  I'm not sure how we can utilize zero point energy, as I imagine is basically zero.

• 8:00Speaker 10

  Maybe we can pull some of it out from some of those hidden string theory dimensions. The lowest energy possible. So I would say we cannot use it.

• 8:11Speaker 11

  In the wonderful animated movie, The Incredibles, the villain uses zero point energy to abduct a baby. So I'm pretty sure if it can be used, it can only be used for evil.

• 8:23Speaker 12

  We can use it to be supervillains and freeze people.

• 8:26Daniel Whiteson?

  French science points to top secret research subject to secrecy, but in those places, there are also men who stare at goats.

• 8:33Speaker 13

  It might solve all of our energy problems, or maybe it would destroy the universe. Interesting.

• 8:39Kelly Weinersmith?

  Answers like these always remind me that the extraordinaries are not a random draw of the general public. They are a very specific group of wonderful human beings with very specific knowledge sets who have watched The Incredibles.

• 8:53Daniel Whiteson?

  Otherwise known as our favorite nerds.

• 8:55Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's right. We love the extraordinaries.

• 8:58Daniel Whiteson?

  It can only be used for evil. I love that one.

• 9:06Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, but otherwise, there's some open mindedness and also a lot of doubt here that zero point energy could be used for powering your toaster and making your breakfast.

• 9:15Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yes, well, our audience is appropriately skeptical and good on them and we'll, uh, we will validate their concerns today.

• 9:23Daniel Whiteson?

  All right. So before we get into the details of how zero point energy could be used, I guess we should explain what is it and why do we think it's there?

• 9:31Kelly Weinersmith?

  I need that. Yes. That would help me.

• 9:36Daniel Whiteson?

  So remember that physics operates basically two huge frameworks to describe the universe. General relativity to explain gravity and really big stuff. Quantum mechanics to explain really small stuff and we haven't unified them. So we don't really understand what's going on, but every time we do physics, we have to pick one. We don't know how to bring them together and have like a unified description. And today we're playing in the quantum world. So put all thoughts of time dilation and spatial curvature aside for now and think just about how we describe the universe in terms of quantum mechanics. That means look at the thing next to you. It's a cup. It's an apple. It's a remote control. It's the dishes, whatever, and think of what it's made out of tiny little

• 10:17Daniel Whiteson?

  particles, right? You've got up quarks and down quarks bound together to make nuclei. You have electrons whizzing around them. All of that makes your elements and that's the particle view of the universe. We don't know what's inside those particles yet. If anything, we think maybe there is something there, but that's our current most fundamental view of the universe from a quantum scale. Still with me?

• 10:38Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, I'm looking at a U spoon, which you used to fix a prolapse.

• 10:44Daniel Whiteson?

  I'm glad it's not a me spoon. That's all I gotta say.

• 10:52Kelly Weinersmith?

  I'm glad it doesn't hurt to laugh anymore. It's so much more fun recording with you when it doesn't hurt to laugh.

• 10:59Daniel Whiteson?

  And just for clarification, that's an E W E U spoon?

• 11:03Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's right. I did use it on a G O A T, but it is meant for sheep.

• 11:09Daniel Whiteson?

  And was that the greatest experience of all time?

• 11:14Kelly Weinersmith?

  Hmm. Oh, oh, I see. I see what you did there.

• 11:17Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah.

• 11:17Kelly Weinersmith?

  No.

• 11:19Kelly Weinersmith?

  No, it wasn't. It was not. It wasn't great. It's kind of low on my list, but, uh, but she seemed real happy when it was done.

• 11:26Daniel Whiteson?

  Welcome to the only podcast where you'll mix quantum particles with farm references.

• 11:32Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's right. Okay. All right. We're getting, I am now imagining the particles in the U spoon. And we are moving on.

• 11:39Daniel Whiteson?

  All right. So quantum mechanics can describe the universe in terms of these particles. But in the 1950s, we moved on from quantum mechanics of single particles to thinking about everything in terms of quantum fields. It turns out to be really hard to think about more than one particle at a time and particle destruction and particle annihilation. The calculations were getting really complicated. And so instead of thinking about each individual particle and its Schrodinger equation, physicists said, let's weave it all together and think of it as part of one big field. So instead of having an individual particle, you know, have particles as excitations in a quantum field. So it's not that there's an electron here and an electron there. Instead,

• 12:20Daniel Whiteson?

  these electrons are both excitations in the same field that fills all of space. And for lots of people, fields are a weird concept. What is it? Why can't I feel it? What does it look like? And the way to think about a field is that it's just a number everywhere in space, like temperature. If you say there's a temperature in Virginia and there's a temperature in California and there's a temperature in Brisbane, right? You're putting a number everywhere on the planet. That's a field. Quantum fields are just like that, except sometimes they have weird numbers like complex values, right? Four plus seven I or something. But you can just put them everywhere in space and then use them to do calculations.

• 12:59Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay. But instead of referring to temperature, four plus seven I tells you what about the electron?

• 13:05Daniel Whiteson?

  Right. So it tells you how much energy there is in the electron field at one location.

• 13:11Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 13:12Daniel Whiteson?

  So as an electron moves through the universe, instead, there's a ripple in the electron field. So a little pulse of energy that moves coherently through the electron field. That's what an electron is from a quantum field theory point of view.

• 13:27Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay. And so when you say ripple, ripple really just means how much energy is in one place and like the difference between the energy at one place and the energy in the position next to it.

• 13:38Daniel Whiteson?

  Exactly. When you're thinking about waves, you always have to think about what is doing the waving. And in this case, it's the field strength, which takes energy. And so you could imagine like, I have an electron here in California, which means, you know, the electron field is zero everywhere, except for a little bubble in Irvine, where has a little pulse of energy, where those numbers are non-zero. And then I send it to Virginia, and now my electron field is zero here, and there's a little pulse of electron field strength in Virginia. So that's how you think about like, one electron in the electron field.

• 14:10Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 14:11Daniel Whiteson?

  And one really fascinating philosophical question is, are these fields real? Like, is this the map of the universe that we use to describe things? It's helpful to do calculations? It works for predicting what's going to happen to the Large Hadron Collider, et cetera, et cetera? Or are these things just like shortcuts in our mind? We come up with this concept and invent it, and it's just useful for us? Or are they really out there? It's like a deep question in philosophy. We're going to dig into a little bit later.

• 14:39Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh, I'm looking forward to that.

• 14:41Daniel Whiteson?

  And one really-

• 14:42Kelly Weinersmith?

  You looked at me like I didn't mean it. I do mean it. I'm interested in, you know, where metaphors break down. Okay, go on.

• 14:49Daniel Whiteson?

  That was a look of pleasant surprise.

• 14:52Kelly Weinersmith?

  It was a look of skepticism, I think. Anyway, go on.

• 14:56Daniel Whiteson?

  But to get there, we first need to think about what happens when you take all of the particles out of the fields. So imagine first you have a cubic kilogram of something, you know, like goat, cubic kilogram of goat, all right? And that has lots of different particles in it. So the quark fields are buzzing, the electron fields are buzzing, because you don't just have one quark or one electron, you have like 10 to the 29, and they're buzzing everywhere. So lots of energy, right? All right. So now, remove the goat from your cube of space.

• 15:25Kelly Weinersmith?

  That sounds bad.

• 15:28Kelly Weinersmith?

  Sorry.

• 15:30Daniel Whiteson?

  Kelly has to put on those gloves that go all the way up past her elbow and you know why, to do this messy job. So she removes the goat from this chunk of space and what's left? Well, you know, maybe there's a few particles of cosmic rays. You build some shielding so none of them come in. They have like a very well shielded box of space. What's left in there? Well, the quantum fields are still there. Even if you remove all of the energy in our description, we're not talking about whether they're real or not. In our mathematical description, the quantum fields are still there, even when there's no particle, right? There's like slots in a Connect Four game, or they're like places to park. Even without a car, there's still a slot there to put your car, right? So the way we think

• 16:14Daniel Whiteson?

  about the quantum fields, the framework is, you know, there's a lowest energy state with no particles. There's a one particle state, a two particle state, a three particle state. They can describe many particles at once, but they can also describe zero particles.

• 16:27Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay, so now the value is zero at all of those locations.

• 16:32Daniel Whiteson?

  Asterisk there. There are zero particles there. We're gonna get in a minute to whether that means there's zero energy there. But there are no particles.

• 16:41Kelly Weinersmith?

  All right. But I, you know, I think in the future, the example should start with there's maybe zero, and then you get a goat, because then I'm more excited. But then you took a goat away, and now I'm kind of sad. But all right, anyway. Okay, so I see where I see where we're going. I under, I'm following you.

• 17:00Daniel Whiteson?

  Yes, I forgot to think about the complete arc of the goat as I'm telling my story. You know, the goat should have some adventures, you know, should have some challenges it overcomes on its way to explaining quantum.

• 17:12Kelly Weinersmith?

  You need to think about the emotional journey that I go on during this explanation. But anyway, okay, so I've lost a goat.

• 17:17Daniel Whiteson?

  Carl Jung would be very disappointed in my episode. You've lost a goat. Don't worry, we'll end up restoring your goat somehow.

• 17:25Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yes. Don't forget to get back to that.

• 17:29Daniel Whiteson?

  So we have these quantum fields and they fill space and we're saying that they're out there. They can describe particles, but they can also describe non-particles, like they can describe the vacuum. And that's what we call the vacuum. When you remove all the particles, now the fields are down to their lowest energy state, right? Having a particle requires energy, having two particles, more energy, having zero particles, less energy. So if you take a chunk of space and you remove all the goats and everything else, you have no particles left in there, you still have the fields.

• 18:01Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 18:02Daniel Whiteson?

  Okay. And the fields have a really weird property, which is zero particles don't have zero energy.

• 18:09Kelly Weinersmith?

  All right. That is weird. Why not?

• 18:11Daniel Whiteson?

  Because the quantum field itself is now the thing in the universe. Particles are just like a blob, they're an effect of the field, an emergent property of the field, the way that like a wave in a bathtub is not a fundamental thing, it's an emergent property of water and the kinematics or whatever. So now quantum mechanics, quantum field theory describes the field itself. And the equations of quantum field theory talk about how that field moves, what's its kinetic energy, what's its potential energy? And you have oscillations and people who think about wave equations will recognize it's like a double differential equation there that tells you things oscillate back and forth between kinetic and potential energy. For example, when you have an electron there, there's energy in the field, the field

• 18:53Daniel Whiteson?

  is vibrating, right? But because this is a quantum thing, it can't be perfectly determined. And if it had zero energy, it would be perfectly well-known. And to be crystal clear, states can have well-defined energy without uncertainty in their energy. But when the energy is non-zero, the field amplitude and momentum obeys the uncertainty principle. If the energy is exactly zero, the amplitude and momentum are both zero, which would violate the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. So quantum mechanics demands that the lowest energy state, the no particle state, is not a zero energy state. So the field is still there, it's still vibrating,

• 19:35Daniel Whiteson?

  it still has some energy, right? But it doesn't correspond to a particle. Particles, a specific kind of vibration of the field, requires a certain chunk of energy. You remove all the last particles, you get down to zero particles, not zero energy. It's baked into the very fabric of reality.

• 19:54Kelly Weinersmith?

  So one thing that you said really kind of like stuck in my head, which may have caused me to miss some of the rest of it. So what stuck in my head was surprisingly not the part about the goat, but was-

• 20:03Daniel Whiteson?

  If something's stuck, you can use a U spoon usually to pull it out.

• 20:06Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's not what the U spoon does, Daniel.

• 20:09Daniel Whiteson?

  Sorry.

• 20:09Kelly Weinersmith?

  It puts it back in.

• 20:10Daniel Whiteson?

  Oh, no, really?

• 20:11Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, and then it holds them in place. Anyway.

• 20:13Daniel Whiteson?

  No, I'm so sorry.

• 20:15Kelly Weinersmith?

  Well, you asked.

• 20:17Daniel Whiteson?

  I had all these beautiful mental images of quantum fields I was going to convey, and now they're all just replaced with a prolapsed goat.

• 20:23Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, well, she's not prolapsed anymore because I put the harness on and then I put the spoon in and I tied it to the harness.

• 20:29Daniel Whiteson?

  And you put on those gloves. And what's the sound effect for putting on really long latex gloves? I'm sure Matt has that somewhere in his library.

• 20:36Kelly Weinersmith?

  Well, these were just the short black nitroile gloves. Then they make the snapping noise.

• 20:42Daniel Whiteson?

  Anyway, what was your question?

• 20:44Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay, so my question, okay, so you said it can't be zero because if it was zero, we would know exactly what the value is. And that feels so human centric, like that that feels like this revolve, you know, that the humans would know exactly what the value was. So that can't be the answer. And like, we can't matter that much. And like, and so, I mean, you know, we believed that everything revolved around us and it turned out we were wrong. And so like, what, is there more to it than that? Or it's like, I'm putting too much emphasis on us and any classical object would have, what am I getting caught up on here that is incorrect?

• 21:25Daniel Whiteson?

  No, you're exactly right to put your finger on that. Thank you. I should have been more clear about that. It's not us at all. We are irrelevant. It's not about observers or conscious entities or anything mystical like that at all. It's just that quantum objects do not have a determined state. Right? It's about the quantum object itself and the fundamental nature of the quantum world and what is real. So these things that are out there can be in a superposition of multiple states, right? Which gives them a inherent fuzziness, just like any quantum particle out there can be in various states simultaneously. That's the quantum fuzziness of the world. It's not about us knowing something or us not knowing something, except in the sense that it's impossible. Impossible for us to know certain things because those things are not determined. They're not part of the universe.

• 22:10Daniel Whiteson?

  Reality is sort of incomplete in that sense. Or our mental picture of reality, what we expect from reality, comes into conflict with how reality actually works.

• 22:18Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 22:18Daniel Whiteson?

  So there's just sort of limitations to how these things can exist, regardless of whether we know them. Another example that's maybe similar and easier to access is the puzzle of the electron. When people were understanding the structure of the atom, they're like, oh, an electron is kind of orbits a nucleus. And then they were wondering, well, why doesn't the electron fall into the nucleus? Because electron has electric charge and it's going around in a circle. And if it's going around in a circle, that's acceleration. Acceleration means radiation. You know, like, how does the electron turn to go around the nucleus? They're wondering, it has to emit a photon to do that, to balance conservation momentum. But if it's constantly emitting photons, it should lose energy. Basically, why don't electrons collapse into the nucleus?

• 23:02Daniel Whiteson?

  Was the big puzzle for many years. And the answer is that the electron is not really moving and orbiting and radiating. It's in its lowest stationary state, right? It cannot go to a lower energy state because a lower energy state would have information about position and momentum, which exceeds the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. It's impossible to have an electron just totally at rest because its location and its velocity would be perfectly known then. Not to us, but determined by the universe. So that's why an electron doesn't fall into the nucleus because it has a lowest energy state, right? The lowest energy solution to the quantum system at that point is not zero energy. It's non-zero energy to be consistent with the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. The same thing applies to quantum fields everywhere

• 23:47Daniel Whiteson?

  because in the end, electrons are anyway just ripples in those quantum fields. And so all the fields out there cannot relax beyond a certain minimum energy. When you think about space and you take away all the particles, you still have fields in there and those fields still are buzzing with this energy. That's just very basic tenet of quantum mechanics.

• 24:09Kelly Weinersmith?

  All right, the universe cannot chill.

• 24:12Daniel Whiteson?

  I mean, you're right, but it's pretty cold out there. But actually, this energy is not like a tiny amount of energy.

• 24:18Kelly Weinersmith?

  Let's take a break and when we get back, Daniel will tell us how much energy we're talking about.

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• 27:27Kelly Weinersmith?

  We're back and Daniel was telling us that we are talking about a non-zero amount of energy in our fields here. But Daniel, you were telling us that it's not zero, because it can't be zero because of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, but it's small, I thought. And so if it's a small amount of energy, and I thought you said it's not a small amount of energy just a second ago. How much energy are we talking about here?

• 27:53Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, so it sounds like it should be a tiny amount of energy, like just a little bit of residual at the bottom. You can't quite scrape it out of the box. You know, it's like when you finish your juice box and there's a little bit left there and you're like slurping and you're like, "Okay, I'm never going to get all the juice out of the box," right?

• 28:08Kelly Weinersmith?

  Do you still have juice boxes, Daniel?

• 28:10Daniel Whiteson?

  No, but I still remember them. I loved juice boxes. It really did. Especially at the end, when you're trying to get like the straw into that last distant corner to like really get out those last little bits of juice. And then you find an extra pocket and you get like, you know, a last little delivery of juice. It's wonderful, right? The little joys. Anyway, you might be imagining it's like that, but it's not. Not like that, not at all. It's more like you're drinking a juice box and you're floating in the Pacific Ocean of juice.

• 28:38Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh.

• 28:39Daniel Whiteson?

  Because if you add up all of the zero-point energy contributions from all the quantum fields, right, you get a ridiculous number. You get 10 to the 113 joules every cubic meter of universe.

• 28:55Kelly Weinersmith?

  What?

• 28:55Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, that's a big number. And let me give you some context. If you add up all the energy stored in all of the stars and planets and rotation and everything in the universe, the whole observable universe, you get 10 to the 73 joules.

• 29:12Kelly Weinersmith?

  What?

• 29:12Daniel Whiteson?

  Okay, but now I'm telling you that the zero-point energy in quantum fields is 10 to the 30 bigger every cubic meter than all of the energy in the universe.

• 29:23Kelly Weinersmith?

  Wait, so like way more energy.

• 29:26Daniel Whiteson?

  Way more.

• 29:27Kelly Weinersmith?

  Next to me in a cubic meter than there is in the sun.

• 29:31Daniel Whiteson?

  Yes.

• 29:31Kelly Weinersmith?

  Daniel, you're wrong. You, you've recorded this incorrectly when you were taking your notes. How could that be possible?

• 29:38Daniel Whiteson?

  This is why I'm telling you the cutting edge of physics is much more exciting than the grift. I mean, this is crazy stuff, but this is what the numbers tell us. So of course, nobody knows what to make of this. Nobody takes this seriously and is certain that it's correct. This is a deep problem in physics, understanding what is the vacuum. You know, we have a model of quantum field theory. It seems to work really, really well. And yet it has this bonkers prediction. And this prediction also is in conflict with the other half of physics, right? General relativity, which describes the universe and its expansion and motion of stars and planets. Now we're talking about so much energy that it's going to have general relativistic consequences, you know?

• 30:21Daniel Whiteson?

  If you take all this energy and you put it in the universe, it's going to gravitate. It's going to change how the universe is curved. It's going to be very, very confusing. And so this is what's known as the cosmological constant problem. The fact that we observe an energy density in the universe that's very, very small compared to what we would calculate if we just sat down and said, how much energy is there in all of our quantum fields? Our quantum fields have tended to 120 too much energy compared to what we observe out there. So add this to the reasons why it's hard to do quantum gravity, because we just don't know how to make a universe work with both of these theories.

• 31:00Kelly Weinersmith?

  And I was gonna say, so do you think this is wrong? But then I guess something is wrong somewhere and it's hard to know where.

• 31:06Daniel Whiteson?

  Exactly.

• 31:07Kelly Weinersmith?

  This feels wrong.

• 31:08Daniel Whiteson?

  It feels very wrong. But you know, just because it feels wrong doesn't mean that it is. There's so much about the universe, which is bizarre and surprising and confusing and yet real.

• 31:18Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 31:19Daniel Whiteson?

  And that's the joy of physics. That's why we do experimental science, because we want to discover the universe and not just speculate about what it might be like. And that's why we follow the math and we look for evidence and we don't just dismiss things because they smell weird. Right? Because sometimes reality is much weirder than any human could imagine. That's the whole reason we're doing this. Those are the best moments. Right? So we have this calculation that says there's 113 joules of energy every cubic meter. Right? And again, that's every cubic meter.

• 31:52Kelly Weinersmith?

  Crazy.

• 31:53Daniel Whiteson?

  So if the universe is infinite, that means that the vacuum has infinite energy, like literally infinite energy. Like, how do you even think about this stuff? Right?

• 32:02Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah. So we should have no energy problem. We just need to harness this. And now I'm the grifter.

• 32:09Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, exactly. Right. So let's tap into this, right? Power our goats with the quantum fields. I'm sure somehow goat, maybe goats know how to do it, actually. I just realized that. Maybe that's why they are the greatest of all time.

• 32:22Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh, my gosh. Amazing. Amazing. What I kind of appreciate about farm life is that like, there's a prolapse and then you've solved it and it's gone. And you're like, problem solved. Whereas you're like, oh, we're off by 120 orders of magnitude.

• 32:39Kelly Weinersmith?

  Who knows how to solve this problem? I mean, there's something nice about problems you can solve in an afternoon. But on the other hand, it is exciting to have these big unsolved problems that you need, you know, you need to work on.

• 32:50Daniel Whiteson?

  There's that probably apocryphal story about Einstein spending an afternoon chopping wood and being like, wow, this is so satisfying. You spend time, you make progress. How rewarding. Whereas we all know that like research, you know, there's no correlation between time spent and progress made. It can be like six months of banging your head against the wall and then suddenly one afternoon, it all comes together or not ever.

• 33:14Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, I like having a mix of those things in my life.

• 33:16Daniel Whiteson?

  It is nice.

• 33:17Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah.

• 33:18Daniel Whiteson?

  So this brings into sharp focus, the question we asked earlier, which was like, you know, an abstract philosophical question. Are fields real, man? You know, past this kind of stuff.

• 33:29Kelly Weinersmith?

  Past the banana.

• 33:30Daniel Whiteson?

  Past the banana peels. Exactly.

• 33:32Kelly Weinersmith?

  Thank you.

• 33:33Daniel Whiteson?

  You know, does it really matter anyway? Well, now it seems like it really kind of does matter because the fields are real and they're bursting with energy and our whole existence is just like this tiny juice box on the Pacific Ocean. Right? It matters because our lives are limited by energy. I mean, we're literally at war right now over energy. It's crazy. If energy was freely available, you don't think we're at war over energy? Is this going to turn into a political podcast? We have quantum fields, we have goats, we have politics.

• 34:07Kelly Weinersmith?

  We have it all today. I think that energy is playing an important role in how this war is playing out. Let's maybe we will go there.

• 34:15Daniel Whiteson?

  All right. Definitely. Energy is important to our lives. Right? And if energy was freely available, infinite energy freely available to everybody, it would change what it means to be human on this planet. Right?

• 34:26Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yep.

• 34:27Daniel Whiteson?

  So if we are surrounded by nearly infinite energy, we should figure that out.

• 34:33Daniel Whiteson?

  It's no longer just a question for the halls of philosophy. It's like, is this real? Right? And sometimes people describe the quantum vacuum in terms that make it sound more real than it is. You know, people sometimes describe this in terms of virtual particles. And you'll hear lots of popular science descriptions that the vacuum has particles popping in and out all the time. And I think this is a little bit misleading, and I think it's worth digging into why that is.

• 35:02Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, sure. What does that even mean?

• 35:03Daniel Whiteson?

  Like lots of popular science, it has its origins in the truth, but there's a fundamental misunderstanding there. The issue is that there's two ways to tell the quantum story of the universe. The one way is the way we've done today, which is say, fields are the fundamental thing. Particles are ripples in those fields. Right? And they're special ripples that move in a coherent way. Everything's nice. But in that sense, particles are not fundamental. Fields are the fundamental thing at the heart of the universe. The foundation of the universe is fields. Right? That's cool, and that works. Some people don't like that because they say, you know, how do we know the fields are real? We never observe a field. Right? You can only see a field's effect on particles. You want to know, is a magnetic field there? You put a particle in it, you see the bend on the particle.

• 35:47Daniel Whiteson?

  Why are we using fields at the foundation? Let's use particles at the foundation. And you can do that. Mathematically, you can say, I'm not interested in fields. When two electrons want to interact with each other, they don't do it through the electromagnetic field. I'm going to say they do it through a virtual particle. And you often hear this description in popular science, that two electrons exchange a photon when they interact. Right? That electromagnetism, for example, is mediated by a photon exchange. That's really a very different way of describing the universe. It's saying particles are the foundation. Everything is particles. Get rid of fields. Don't talk about fields. And that works, too. You can use the particle picture to say, particles are at the foundation of everything.

• 36:29Daniel Whiteson?

  But then these particles that are being exchanged between the two electrons, they're not real particles. They're virtual particles. And they're not really the same as real particles. We have a whole other episode about what virtual particles are. But in a sense, they're Just another way to think of the same mathematics. Like if two electrons exchange a bunch of virtual particles, or if there's a ripple in the field, it doesn't really matter mathematically. Makes all the same predictions, just a question of like, what's your interpretation? But these are not real particles. And so, so you can think about the universe either as being filled with fields or having an infinite number of virtual particles. Either one works. And so that's where this notion comes from, that the vacuum is filled with particles. But it's not filled with real particles.

• 37:14Daniel Whiteson?

  It's not like there are electrons popping out of the vacuum that you could like, capture and use. It's just another mathematical way to describe the same thing, right? That you can't access this lowest energy state. Either it's the lowest buzz that the field can do, or it's a minimum number of virtual particles. But virtual particles are not observable. So it's just, it's a mathematical trick. And because they use the word particle, it sort of pumps your intuition in certain confusing and misleading ways.

• 37:42Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 37:43Daniel Whiteson?

  And so it's not that the vacuum is like popping out particles that you can collect and treat as real particles.

• 37:48Kelly Weinersmith?

  Got it. Okay.

• 37:50Daniel Whiteson?

  However, there are ways to probe this quantum vacuum, right? If the field is there and it's real, possibly we can interact with it, right? And so people have done experiments to see like, can we see if the quantum vacuum is real? And these experiments are fascinating. Maybe the most important one is called the Casimir effect.

• 38:12Kelly Weinersmith?

  It's a good name. I mean, not as good as like the Wiener Smith effect, which I hope to one day, you know, create.

• 38:21Daniel Whiteson?

  I mean, for most things that you think about, like the most of physics, the Large Hadron Collider, or you know, superconductivity, none of this matters. We just think about relative energy, not like the absolute. Like, are we, you know, seven joules on top of zero? Or seven joules on top of 10 to the 113? Doesn't matter because we're only thinking about energy differences usually. But you can sometimes create experiments that are sensitive to the absolute scale. And so the Casimir effect is super cool. You take two mirrors, basically two sheets of metal, and you put them really close to each other. Okay. And because these two sheets of metal are conductors, conductors have this property that they can't have electric fields inside of them. If you have an electric

• 39:03Daniel Whiteson?

  field inside a conductor, the electrons just move around and rearrange to cancel it out. That's why, for example, you can't get a cellphone call when you're inside an elevator, because an elevator is made of metal and the metal inside the walls moves to basically cancel out your cellphone signal, right? Because if there's an electric field and there's electrons just hanging out, it's going to push those electrons. It's exactly the way to cancel it out. Okay, so you have two sheets of metal and they can't have electric fields in them. What that does is it suppresses certain kinds of frequencies between the two sheets of metal. Okay, so if you were to have fluctuations in your quantum field, think of them as waves, right? Now you can only have waves that happen

• 39:46Daniel Whiteson?

  to have zeros right at your two sheets of metal. If you were going to have waves that would be non-zero inside your sheets of metal, those are canceled out. So when you put these two sheets of metal really, really close together, then you change which frequencies can exist between those sheets and which frequencies can't exist between those sheets. It's sort of the same reason why having a mesh in front of your microwave protects you from those microwave waves, because it insists the electric field is zero in all the places on the mesh, which means that there's no solution for the waves to be on both sides of the mesh, and so it protects you. In the same sense, having these two conductors really, really close to each other means that there's no solutions even

• 40:29Daniel Whiteson?

  for the quantum vacuum in certain frequencies between the conductors.

• 40:34Kelly Weinersmith?

  But that does not break the Heisenberg uncertainty principle because why?

• 40:41Daniel Whiteson?

  Oh, great question. So outside of these plates, you can't have modes below a certain energy because it would violate the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, right? What happens between the plates is that those modes are just disallowed. So it's not that the modes have lower energy, they just don't exist. And so between the plates, you have only some frequencies of the vacuum are allowed. Outside the plates, all frequencies are allowed. So you end up with lower energy between the plates because some of the frequencies of the vacuum are not allowed. So it's sort of like you've changed the conditions and now the vacuum is different. Not that the vacuum is now violating the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

• 41:25Daniel Whiteson?

  It's just that there are only some modes in there, some frequency modes. All those modes obey the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, but some of them are disallowed because of the conductor. So the nature of the vacuum has changed essentially.

• 41:37Kelly Weinersmith?

  But it is the case that now at every spot in the field, you know, the value is zero.

• 41:42Daniel Whiteson?

  You're right. If the value of the field would be zero, that would violate the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. But at those frequencies, there is no field there. It's not that it's zero, it's that there is no field. Yes, because that field is no longer compatible with this configuration.

• 41:59Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 42:00Daniel Whiteson?

  So between the two sheets, you have a certain number of modes of the vacuum. Outside the sheets, you have all those same modes plus more. The vacuum can do more outside than it can inside.

• 42:12Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay, cool.

• 42:12Daniel Whiteson?

  Right? Very clever trick to sort of change the nature of the vacuum. And you might think, all right, that sounds cool, but we're still in banana peels mode, right? No.

• 42:21Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's this whole episode, Dan.

• 42:25Daniel Whiteson?

  Are the goats gonna eat the banana peels at the end? Is that what's, that's gonna be the emotional arc for the goats? Goats will eat banana peels, right?

• 42:31Kelly Weinersmith?

  Well, you've got to get back to bringing my goat back from the abyss. And so maybe the banana peel is what will bring it back.

• 42:37Daniel Whiteson?

  I'm gonna sell the machine that generates goats from the quantum vacuum.

• 42:41Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yes.

• 42:41Daniel Whiteson?

  Yes, to farmers.

• 42:43Kelly Weinersmith?

  Great. Okay, love it.

• 42:45Daniel Whiteson?

  All right, so what happens now is you have a greater energy density outside these two sheets than inside, right? Because you have more quantum modes accessible to the vacuum now because you haven't changed the vacuum on the outside, only on the inside. What that means is that there's a pressure. You have a greater energy density on the outside, lower energy density on the inside. Is there pressure on these two sheets? So if this is really happening, then you should be able to measure this. You should put two sheets together and you should be able to see them get squeezed, not by any other force, just by like the energy density gradient of the vacuum itself.

• 43:25Kelly Weinersmith?

  And we're going to take a break. And when we get back, we're going to find out, does that really happen?

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• 46:35Kelly Weinersmith?

  All right, we are back and we have been enjoying our banana peels during the break, and we now have two plates. And in the middle of the plate, there is fewer frequencies, less energy. Outside the plates, there are more frequencies, more energy, and that should make the plates smash together, or at least move closer to each other. I'm being hyperbolic, but is that what happens, Daniel?

• 46:59Daniel Whiteson?

  So for a long time, nobody knew. This was predicted by Casimir in 1948. Very cool idea. I love when physicists come up with clever ways to trick the universe to reveal what's actually happening, right? That's like the real genius of experimental physics.

• 47:16Kelly Weinersmith?

  But this is not like a complicated experiment. Why does nobody know?

• 47:23Kelly Weinersmith?

  Why not just do it?

• 47:24Daniel Whiteson?

  Not a complicated experiment. You have to have mirrors separated by like microns. This thing is going to be a small effect.

• 47:31Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 47:31Daniel Whiteson?

  And so it wasn't measured until 1997.

• 47:34Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh.

• 47:35Daniel Whiteson?

  Steve Lammerow at University of Washington pulled this off. He didn't have two sheets. He had a plate and then a sphere. The idea being bring the sphere really gently close to the plate and see if you can measure any force between them. So he has a sphere or a plate and then he's shining a laser onto the sphere and then measuring to see like, does the angle of the laser change? The key is to set it up really clean so you can measure really small effects. Because, you know, if you have two mirrors with an area of like a centimeter squared and you're able to put them within a micron of each other, not easy, right? Then they're going to have the attractive Casimir force of about 10 to the negative seven Newtons. That's like the weight of a water drop that's half a millimeter in diameter.

• 48:20Daniel Whiteson?

  So this is a really, really small effect.

• 48:23Kelly Weinersmith?

  And then the idea would be that that effect would ever so slightly bend the laser and they'd be able to measure the bend in the laser?

• 48:31Daniel Whiteson?

  That effect would move the sphere and the laser is bouncing off the sphere. And so it changed the path of the laser.

• 48:37Kelly Weinersmith?

  Got it. Okay.

• 48:38Daniel Whiteson?

  They hear they're using a laser just to tell where is the sphere?

• 48:41Kelly Weinersmith?

  Got it. Okay.

• 48:42Daniel Whiteson?

  It's sort of like in torsion experiments when you want to see like, is my pendulum bending at all? And so you have a mirror on, you shine a laser, just amplifies a small effect into a measurable effect. It's part of the experimental cleverness.

• 48:56Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yes, yes.

• 48:56Daniel Whiteson?

  Anyway, so this was finally seen in 1997. It was confirmed at just the size that Casimir predicted, right? So not only does it happen, it happens exactly the rate predicted by the calculation.

• 49:07Kelly Weinersmith?

  Wow.

• 49:07Daniel Whiteson?

  So you're like, whoa, that's awesome. What does that mean? Does that mean the vacuum is real? That we're actually sitting on a Pacific Ocean of juice slurping out the last details?

• 49:19Kelly Weinersmith?

  But then doesn't that make all of the like spacetime stuff not work? Like shouldn't?

• 49:24Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah.

• 49:24Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 49:24Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, it definitely breaks everything about the cosmological model if it's real. Right? And so there's a raging debate about this. People say, yes, it's real. Other people say, actually, there are other ways to explain it. So Bob Jaffe at MIT, not like a fringe guy, like a very well-known physicist. After this experiment came out, he was like, I don't know, this is crazy.

• 49:48Kelly Weinersmith?

  I'm on team Bob.

• 49:52Daniel Whiteson?

  He came out with this paper called Casimir Effect in the Quantum Vacuum in 2005, and it argues that what you're seeing there is not necessarily the quantum vacuum. He was able to derive the same effect just using van der Waals interactions, just saying like, "Look, I know what the charges are in these conducting plates. Can I use my knowledge of nuclear forces to predict the same thing?" And it comes out to be an effect of the retarded van der Waals forces. Basically, the fact that information doesn't flow at infinite speed. And so there's like a time delay based on where things are, and this adds up in a certain way. And so that's fascinating because he doesn't ever reference a quantum vacuum in his derivation and gets exactly the same numbers.

• 50:35Daniel Whiteson?

  But then philosophers weigh in and they say, "Okay, you can calculate that in this context, but it's sort of a pedagogical point saying that this effect is due to the materials we have there in space," when that's also what Casimir was saying. He's saying, "You put these materials in space, you change the nature of the quantum vacuum." This goes to the heart of the question you were asking earlier, right? "We've changed the nature of the vacuum by putting those plates there." So there's still a raging philosophical debate about, "Does this show that it's real? Is it just van der Waals? Does that mean the same thing anyway?" And in fact, these are two different ways of computing the same thing, which makes it philosophically very confusing about what it means.

• 51:17Kelly Weinersmith?

  So I guess being on Team Bob is the same thing as being on Team Casimir.

• 51:22Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, exactly, in the end. Or a better way to say it is that there's some philosophers who say, "Actually, you guys agree."

• 51:30Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 51:31Daniel Whiteson?

  But there are other ways to see the effects of the quantum vacuum. There's like the Lamb shift in the hydrogen atom. There are energy levels that, according to the Dirac equation, should be totally identical energies, but they're slightly different because they are interacting with the vacuum. Vacuum fluctuations of the electromagnetic field nudge the electron, slightly shifting its energy. And this has been measured, and it's totally accurate. The Lamb shift is a real thing. And again, this comes down to a philosophical question like... Okay, it's not like there are particles popping out of the vacuum that you're interacting with. The field is there. The field has this energy. You can interact with the field. And so this is another piece of evidence that it's out there, right? It's real. So I

• 52:15Daniel Whiteson?

  think in the end, the weight is in the direction of the quantum vacuum is out there. It's real. We don't know what that means from a cosmological point of view, but it certainly seems like all our predictions are saying that we're sitting on this massive ocean of energy. But the question of the episode is not, is the quantum vacuum filled with energy? Or where does Kelly have to put her hand inside a goat?

• 52:37Kelly Weinersmith?

  Well-

• 52:37Daniel Whiteson?

  It's can we make use of the quantum vacuum?

• 52:40Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah. Well, and when you brought up the Lamb shift, I thought you were going to bring us back to prolepses, but I guess you didn't. But it's-

• 52:48Daniel Whiteson?

  How did I miss that obvious connection? I'm thinking of Willis Lamb. I wasn't at all prepared to make that joke. I apologize to all the listeners.

• 52:55Kelly Weinersmith?

  I'm a little disappointed in you, but that's okay. It's all right. We're gonna move on. We're gonna move on. Okay, so it might be a real thing. Is it a thing that we can use? And should you be paying $50,000 to buy it to make energy to cook your toast?

• 53:10Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, don't buy an overunity machine. The issue is that to make use of energy, you need an energy difference, right? You need a gradient. You need a high and a low. You know, like if you have water on a mountain, you can't use the potential energy of the water being up on the mountain unless you can flow down somewhere and then you can extract that energy. It turns into kinetic energy. It spins your water wheel, et cetera. Or if you have like a voltage difference inside of a battery, you can take advantage of that. So what you need is a difference. But this quantum vacuum energy, this zero point energy, this is the lowest energy of the field, right? You can't go lower. And so if you can't go lower, not only can you not extract any energy because it can't go

• 53:54Daniel Whiteson?

  lower, right? But also there's no gradient there. There's no difference. There's nothing to use.

• 54:01Kelly Weinersmith?

  But there's all that energy there.

• 54:03Daniel Whiteson?

  There's all that energy there. And it feels like, but didn't we figure out how to use it? I mean, we have the Casimir effect. It applies a pressure. Can't you somehow extract that energy? You can turn Casimir pressure into energy, like, you know, you have a little piezoelectric device which creates electricity. When you squeeze it, you can put it between Casimir plates, right? Casimir plates, squeeze it, you get electricity. Oh, my gosh, have we built a Casimir over-unity machine? Should we be selling these to our listeners for $50,000? Well, you know, this works once, right? The plates get pulled together, they generate energy, but then you have to reset them. And so, in effect, all the energy comes from the configuration that you built. It costs energy to put the Casimir plates in that

• 54:47Daniel Whiteson?

  setup and set everything up. And then you recover that energy when they collapse, which is like carrying water up a mountain and then saying, look, free energy, it flows down the mountain. Cool. But now you're going to carry it back up the mountain, right? And the original energy came from you carrying it up the mountain. So, Casimir batteries are not useful, right? It's the configuration of the plates which cost energy. You're not really mining the vacuum.

• 55:11Kelly Weinersmith?

  Do you think there's any chance that we could figure out a design where you could extract energy?

• 55:17Daniel Whiteson?

  All right. So, here's what Daniel sounds like, a grifter, right? Yes, absolutely, because we clearly don't know what's going on here. Like, we have this bizarre situation where we have a very accurate theory of physics, like quantum field theory predicted up the wazoo and down the wazoo, 12 decimal places. It works, folks. It's amazing. It works so well that I almost had a spiritual experience when I first saw these calculations. And I thought, this is like, you know, not the hand of God, but like, this is the underlying mechanism of the universe itself. This is the territory, not the map, right? On the other hand, it makes this bizarre prediction, which is deeply at odds with

• 55:59Daniel Whiteson?

  our knowledge of the expanding and accelerating universe and everything we know about gravity and cosmology. So, something is clearly wrong. And the best part of being on the cutting edge of physics is the humility it requires. Right? Something we know is fundamentally wrong. And in 50 years, people are going to look back and be like, wow, how did they not see it? It was so obvious. Like, they just had these two things in their head at all times. It's nuts, right? And so something here is wrong, which means that everything we've said today could be totally wrong. And it could be that we discover the quantum vacuum is very different from what we thought it was. And a theory of quantum gravity gives us new insight as to what's going on. And there isn't energy out there in these fields, or there really is. And quantum gravity shows

• 56:44Daniel Whiteson?

  us that these rules we think are hard and fast about quantum field theory, that there's a minimum zero energy, you can't go below. Maybe that can be broken sometimes, right? Maybe quantum field theory is emergent. It's not exact. And so there's some situations in which it doesn't apply. And in those situations, you can do crazy things and, you know, get to negative energy to stabilize wormholes and all sorts of crazy stuff. So yeah, it's definitely possible that in the future, we're going to be extracting energy from the vacuum due to an improved theory of physics. But with our current, obviously flawed and incomplete understanding of physics, there's no way to get energy out of the vacuum. And so if somebody out there is trying to sell you a machine, ask yourself, has this person invented quantum gravity? And yet I've never heard of them. And now they're on the internet

• 57:29Daniel Whiteson?

  selling devices for $50,000 instead of collecting Nobel prizes? Hmm. Ask yourself, would that make sense?

• 57:36Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay. Well, so that's exciting. We're either going to like, have a Nobel Prize winning discovery in physics where that like absolutely changes the way we look at the universe.

• 57:45Daniel Whiteson?

  Yes.

• 57:46Kelly Weinersmith?

  Or we're going to be able to extract almost infinite energy.

• 57:52Daniel Whiteson?

  Or both, right?

• 57:53Kelly Weinersmith?

  Or both, maybe both.

• 57:55Daniel Whiteson?

  Exactly. Yeah. And nobody knows where that discovery is going to come from, or who is going to make it. These grand revelations sometimes come in the most unusual, unexpected places.

• 58:05Kelly Weinersmith?

  Probably not from prolapsed goats. And you never brought my goat back, Daniel.

• 58:10Daniel Whiteson?

  No, that's what I was about to do. You never know where you're gonna find it. So sometimes you gotta pull on those gloves up to your elbows and you gotta dig around inside the weirdest of places and keep an open mind for what's in there. It could be quantum gravity, Kelly.

• 58:24Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh, wow.

• 58:25Daniel Whiteson?

  So when your goat gives birth in a couple of weeks, who knows what's gonna come out? Could be secrets of the universe.

• 58:31Kelly Weinersmith?

  I know. Ada said we're gonna name the first goat Sprinkles, but maybe we should name it Quantum Gravity.

• 58:37Daniel Whiteson?

  Casimir.

• 58:37Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's right. The Casimir effect in quantum gravity. We'll, uh, we'll see what happens. All right. Well, I've got high hopes.

• 58:44Daniel Whiteson?

  It's too bad there's not a kid effect in physics because that would be a great name for a lot of these babies.

• 58:49Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, yeah. Anyway, all right. Well, we covered a lot of ground today, probably a surprising amount of ground today, but we had a lot of fun and we ran away from politics as fast as we could. And thank you for joining us on Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe.

• 59:12Daniel Whiteson?

  Thanks, everybody, for listening. Please go and do us a favor and rate the show on whatever podcast app you're using. It really helps people find us.

• 59:19Kelly Weinersmith?

  Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is edited by the amazing Matt Kesselman.

• 59:24Daniel Whiteson?

  He really is a wizard. You can also find us online on Blue Sky, Instagram, and X, D and K Universe. Come engage with us.

• 59:34Kelly Weinersmith?

  You can email us at [email protected]. We really do want to hear from you.

• 59:40Daniel Whiteson?

  And you can find our website, www.danielandkelly.org, where you'll also find an invitation to join our Discord, where everybody comes and talks about the amazing universe.

• 59:51Kelly Weinersmith?

  And we also have the most amazing moderators. This is an iHeart Podcast. Thanks for joining us.

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