Trump Goes After Zelensky in Meeting | EYES ON GEOPOLITICS

Today we talk about what went down in the oval office last week with Trump, Vance & Zelensky the fallout and how Europe may have to stand up to Russia without U. S. assistance. New merch, patches, and stickers! ⬇️ https://theteamhouse-shop.fourthwall.com Support the show on Patreon:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Find Mick Mulroy here: Fogbow ⬇️ https://fogbow.com/ Lobo Institute ⬇️ https://www.loboinstitute.org/ Twitter ⬇️ https://x.com/mickmulroy?s=21&t=-Ze3F_Ix2vlJ18KFvORTCA LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-patrick-mulroy-31198b52/ Blusky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/mickmulroy.bsky.social Mick’s publications ⬇️ https://www.loboinstitute.org/publications/publications-of-michael-mick-patrick-mulroy/ Find Andy Milburn here: Twitter ⬇️ https://twitter.com/i/flow/login?redirect_after_login=%2Fandymilburn8 LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewmilburn2023 Substack ⬇️ https://amilburn.substack.com/ Andy’s book ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/When-Tempest-Gathers-Mogadishu-Operations Blusky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/andy-milburn.bsky.social Find Jason Lyons here: LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-lyons-666873316?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app Blusky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/bgsilverback73.bsky.soci Music by - Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio #trump #zelensky Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 1:01Speaker 02

  We gotta start coming up with leverages, leveraging what we have collectively, the West, against Russia. Yeah. Right? More sanctions. Don't agree to ceasefire. More sanctions. Don't agree to ceasefire. Release more of your frozen assets. Freeze more assets. Send more. You know, the only way that, the only thing that Russia understands, going back to Stalin, is strength. You know, we have this old expression with bayonets, you know? If you proceed with bayonets, if you find mush, continue. If you find steel, withdraw. Like, they don't listen to any platitudes. They don't care if you try to, you know, say nice things about them. They only respond to strength or weakness. That's it. And they'll tell you that.

• 1:45Speaker 02

  It's part of their, you know, their whole being. And we gotta start showing strength.

• 2:04Speaker 03

  Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Eyes On. I'm Demetri Kuntakos and I'm here with Mick Mulroy. All the other guys are not available today. Mick, so thanks for doing this.

• 2:17Speaker 03

  Had a pretty spicy last three or four days. I'm sure everyone by this, by now has seen the exchange that went down in the White House and the Oval Office between President Zelensky, President Trump and VP JD Vance. It was funny because I was just watching the entire, I watched the entire thing a little, a day ago. The beginning until the last five minutes where like the sparks really flew.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  People are saying that it was like kind of normal press conference, but I mean, you could tell that there was some, a little bit of tension in the air.

• 2:52Speaker 03

  There were a couple of moments where Zelensky like,

• 2:56Speaker 03

  you know, they, they made a joke of it, but when the part when Zelensky mentioned how Europe's put up a good, you know, more than the US and stuff.

• 3:07Speaker 03

  It, it seemed like it was okay and a lot of glad handing, like, you know, what Trump does normally. And then it devolved into something crazy. Mick, you've been in the Oval Office before, you've been in government. Have you ever seen something like this, but in public, in front of a pool spray where two world leaders kind of arguing back and forth like that in front of everybody?

• 3:31Speaker 02

  So, no, I haven't. In fact, I haven't seen that in public or private. And to be honest, I think if, even if it happened in private where, you know, obviously I wouldn't be at the table. I mean, I've been in a lot of senior meetings where I was back benching, as they call it, right? So I would imagine they would have told the backbenchers like myself to get out. That's what I would have guessed in the past. And I have been in meetings where there were certainly tense issues discussed. So it was unusual. I think we can all agree on that. You know, I was in DC the week before, talking our humanitarian stuff on the Hill.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  In the Executive Office Building, which is, I guess, technically the White House. But it was mostly on Gaza and Syria, which is where we do a lot of our, in Sudan. But Ukraine did come up and some, I've got friends on both sides of the political aisle. And my friends on the Republican side were essentially really concerned about this.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  They kind of foreshadowed that something could happen and it would be best if President Zelensky just kind of nodded and took what was coming. I'm not saying he should, but that's, it was clear to me. And then the same people, when this happened, were texting me and saying, told you. And essentially what I asked, like, this kind of looked to me as if it was prepared. Right? They said, of course it was. The Vice President is not going to inject himself in the middle of a meeting between President Trump and President Zelensky and essentially do what he did in front of the media unless it was planned. And, you know, they've changed their position on that.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  I don't think my friend did, but it was pretty clear to him that this was, this was something that was planned and that, you know, as a lot of people are saying, that President Zelensky took the bait, you know?

• 5:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  So whether it was or wasn't, I can leave that to the audience to decide. But I think if you really look at all the circumstances surrounding it, it simply wouldn't have happened if it wasn't planned. But that said, you know, there's issues much bigger than just this, this contentious meeting in front of the press, right? This is US national security interest, Russia's, who hasn't been asked to do anything yet, hasn't even agreed to come to the table.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Their belief that they might not need to come to the table because there's nothing pushing them that way. And then, of course, the consequences to the US when it comes to our relationship to NATO. Europe's obviously holding an emergency summit today on what they're going to do and whether this prolongs the war and potentially increases the likelihood that it could expand into Europe.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  So there's, there's much thing, there's things much broader than this contentious meeting, I would say. I mean, we could certainly talk about it, but.

• 6:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  Ultimately, you know, there's another conversation I had today. If you're not familiar with the concept of an Irish discussion, as an Irishman, I'll explain it. It is generally when, you know, you can have a regular discussion in which parties sit down and talk and all that, or you can have an Irish one, and I know that's somewhat of a stereotype, but we embrace our stereotype, that can turn into fisticuffs and flipping tables and all that, right? I would also say, and I think my fellow Irishmen, Irish Americans would also agree, that you could come back an hour later, and the tables put back in order, and they're buying each other drinks in their arm in arm. So I'm not saying that is what

• 7:29Speaker 02

  happened here. I'm not saying that's gonna happen, but I would hope that it would. I would hope that, since we already had the first part, that cooler heads would prevail on both sides, and not look at this as some kind of ego thing, but look at, you know, ultimately, the position of the United States as leader of the free world pushing back against autocracies like Russia and their desire to simply take territory, terrain, countries over in Europe. And if we don't, then they're gonna view that as potentially a license to continue, not just in Ukraine, but you know, there's also other countries that are in NATO that they could have their eyes on, or even NATO countries, if they

• 8:13Speaker 02

  think that ultimately, the US is not going to, and I don't know that this is the case, but not honor Article Five of the NATO Treaty, which requires every country to come to the aid of any country that's attacked, much like Europe did for us after September 11, 2001. So I think, hopefully, Secretary Rubio, potentially Mike Walz, who I think fully understands, both of them, fully understands the importance of the United States being a partner to NATO and Europe and Ukraine, and the consequences if we simply, you know, abdicate that role. So I think this needs to get back on track. Obviously, signing

• 8:57Speaker 02

  this minerals agreement we talked about last week is something that's kind of a prerequisite. Then I would say, let's do it and try to get our coalition back, because Russia, basically, their way they enter these things, and let's remember, in 2019, they signed a ceasefire with Ukraine. Two thousand nineteen and then invaded Ukraine in two thousand twenty-two. But um, I think it's

• 9:22Speaker 03

  That was the Minsk agreement, right?

• 9:24Speaker 02

  No, so the

• 9:25Speaker 03

  I'm sorry.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  Well, was it was the Minsk agreement? I don't know, but I think you might be right. The Budapest agreement was when they gave up their nuclear

• 9:32Speaker 03

  In ninety-four, right?

• 9:33Speaker 02

  Ninety-four, they annexed Crimea, of course, in two thousand fourteen and

• 9:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  Two thousand nineteen, it might have been called the the Minsk agreement. So somebody has to fact check this.

• 9:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  I know they signed ceasefire in uh, two thousand nineteen. So they're very concerned that if there's no securities assurance that the the paper isn't, you know, worth what it's written on, or that the the agreement isn't worth what it's written on because you know, they just did it for Ukraine and decided as soon as they had the advantage from their perspective, they launched a full-scale invasion, thinking they were going to take over Ukraine, the entire country. So this is something that needs to be addressed. Russia loves the fact that we're now not only arguing amongst ourselves, but completely splinter. They've managed to splinter uh, the US, not only from Ukraine, but right now, and you can see this uh, playing out in real time uh, with Europe, and that is not not in the US interest.

• 10:27Speaker 03

  It was pretty crazy to see like just unfold kind of on Twitter where you see all of the European um, leaders coming out saying they support Ukraine and uh, while it's going, while like the fallout's going on and like the news cycle's spinning and you you you see like every single leader in Europe and NATO just coming out hardcore.

• 10:52Speaker 04

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• 11:35Speaker 04

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• 11:52Speaker 00

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• 12:23Speaker 03

  Or like, yeah, we're with Ukraine all the way. And they signed the Minsk Agreement in 2015.

• 12:30Speaker 03

  So there might be another agreement from 2019.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  That was right after the annexation of Crimea.

• 12:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  And then they signed, there's something they signed. And I guess the point being is they've, they have violated their own agreement that they signed multiple times. So that's why it's so important to have security guarantees, either from the United States or NATO. Or if NATO won't do it because the United States, of course, is part of NATO, so it would be essentially doing a security guarantee, then Europe, right? So that's what I imagine is on the table today. I think it's a good thing that Europe has, you know, inspired itself to take its security much more serious. To be fair to both sides of this debate,

• 13:18Speaker 02

  including President Trump's consternation with how NATO has been in our European partners.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  I mean, they've they essentially spend collectively around three hundred and fifty billion a year on our own defense. The US is around eight hundred and fifty billion, right? So there's a bit of inequity when it comes to contributions to the collective defense. It's not, it doesn't go into a pool. Right. Right, it's but collectively, Europe has, I think, in many ways, not been the partner. It's, you know, all the countries as the United States, and they need to. And now they they they see it because they're concerned about our willingness to continue with NATO.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Now they're talking about substantially increasing their expenditures on their own defense. I think they said today that they'll all go to three percent, which is substantial. But they need to do more than that. They need to actually integrate their military so they can fight as a joint force, right? I mean, you could have, you could spend a lot of money on fancy, you know, aircraft and such. But if you don't have the capacity to, you know, the air-ground concept of modern warfare, maneuver warfare. If that's not completely integrated, it doesn't, it's not, it's not as effective as it could be, that put it mildly. So they're, if they're going to duplicate NATO, and that's part of a discussion, I think, today.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  You know, they're going to have to do more than just spend more. They're going to have to have a unified command structure like we do in NATO, right? The Supreme Allied Commander that runs everything. It has to have a unified ability to actually go to war and be successful in war. So and ultimately, if we could keep the NATO, you know, this is really putting the glass half full on this. But if we can keep the NATO alliance together and stay together, we'll come out at the other end with Russia going, oh, damn. That didn't work out the way we planned because now we have a Europe that is potentially as strong as the United States. The United States still as strong as we are.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  And in a unification behind Ukraine, which would not, you know, obviously be in Russia's interest, which is good for us.

• 15:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I can't, I don't see the like the the real aim in the US having such a for lack of a better word, belligerent view on this.

• 15:52Speaker 03

  Like, I understand, like, the reconstruction fund and stuff like that and like trying to, you know, invest in Ukraine after there's some sort of peace deal and ceasefire. But I can also really understand why Zelensky in Ukraine needs a security guarantee, right? Before they secede any territory, before they, you know, stop fighting.

• 16:12Speaker 03

  Because you can't trust a guy like Putin. You know, it's not because I'm anti-Russian, obviously not. It's just because the guy's track record's been pretty pretty terrible as far as like holding to ceasefires and things, things of that nature. Even if it meant like Ukraine says, I, all right, we won't be in NATO for 30 years, right?

• 16:35Speaker 03

  They need to have some kind of security guarantee before they're just like, yeah, no problem. Because like, what will stop Putin? Nothing. I mean, nothing stopped in three years ago, right?

• 16:44Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, what Shakespeare said, what is past is prologue, right? So you don't have to take anybody's word for whether you can trust Russia. Just look at whether history bears it out. It does, I mean, would, I think Ukraine would likely take a security guarantee from the United States or its European partners. That is essentially the biggest part of NATO.

• 17:08Speaker 03

  What would that look like, like an Article Five type, similar to that, comparable to an Article Five? Or what, like, just what would a security guarantee in theory look like?

• 17:19Speaker 02

  So from, I think, from Ukraine's side, although they might not be able to get this. When it comes to the United States, it would probably have to be codified by the Senate. Right? So the US promised Ukraine, when we asked them to give their nuclear weapons to Russia in the mid 1990s, we promised security assistance, but it never got ratified by the Senate, and so.

• 17:45Speaker 02

  We obviously did not hold up our, so that would be one, it's, I don't, I, I assume that would be the case with our European partners and Ukraine. I don't, they might have to have parliamentary approval, but you know, I don't know if Ukraine would accept just the word or some kind of written document signed between heads of state. But ultimately, and of course, we're having this entire debate before we have even asked anything of Russia. In fact, part of the component plan, part of the, that, one of the components of the plan that we put together, the US, was European peacekeepers on the ground in Ukraine after the ceasefire commences. They already rejected that. So, I mean,

• 18:27Speaker 02

  we, we have a, I think that it would behoove all of the West, including the United States, to have back room discussions on what we're willing to do and not do, and then have a unified front when it comes to the negotiations with Russia. Um, right now, we're, we've almost spun out of control without even starting the ceasefire negotiations. So, I mean, I don't, I think there's a way to get it back in the box. I hope we can do that. Even with the US? I think so. Yeah. I mean, we've all seen that President Trump can forgive, uh, even people

• 19:09Speaker 02

  that are currently in his most senior positions in his cap, right? So, okay, you want to look at Class F, well, uh, then it can be done. So, I think, and it's, again, it's in our own interest. I don't think there's anything wrong with the US, um, having an investment in Ukraine, either from the US point of view, or the Ukrainian point of view, right? From the Ukrainian point of view, it's kind of a good thing for US to have a rare earth minerals agreement in Ukraine, because it will take, and I'm no expert on this, but just reading, um, some of the reports that's put out, it'll take, you know, decade plus to actually get to these reserves. They're not proven, so

• 19:50Speaker 02

  we don't know exactly how much there is. It would take billions of dollars, uh, to do so, and it would be a long-term investment in Ukraine, and I think that's in the Ukrainian But ultimately, it had, there have to be a ceasefire for any of this.

• 20:06Speaker 03

  Right.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  To pan out, right? There's not a security guarantee in the minerals agreement. There's also not a promise to continue security assistance, which seems to be what would be the biggest benefit you for Ukraine. Giving fifty percent of the unproven mineral resources to the United States would be that we'd continue. You know, funding.

• 20:30Speaker 03

  Right, popping them out. Yeah.

• 20:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:36Speaker 03

  So my, what do you think happens like if this rift continues? Because there was some word when they were negotiating the bullets of the mineral agreement or the agreement to have a middle agreement at some point. About yanking Starlink internet from Ukraine. Also, because I mean, I know you can't comment on this, but I mean, I think. It's pretty clear that like US and allies have been. Sharing a bunch of intelligence with the Ukrainians, right? Military intelligence. Does that, does that train stop? At some point, like as a kind of bargaining chip from the, on the US's side on Ukraine?

• 21:20Speaker 02

  So that would be, if that happened, it would essentially be. Signing with the Russians.

• 21:27Speaker 03

  Right.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Right, so it would be beyond, we're not going to continue our support in the. You know, the amount that we have in the last four or five years. It would be actively promoting the military interests of the Russians. Right, it would be making them blind in many case, particularly the communication side, the intelligence side, the US by far has the. Most extensive intelligence.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  capabilities and assets than anybody in the world, right? So that would be put them in a position where they're blind. I don't know that the Europeans could make up for it. I think a lot of what Europe relies on when it comes to intelligence collection is the US. So that's going to be another thing they're going to have to address if they, if they really do have an alternative to NATO, or even if they don't, if they really try to create this European defense force. It's more than tanks and, and, you know, bombers. It's the intelligence capability. It's a standing, functional military, army, Navy, Air Force. It requires all of that.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Now, there's a lot of, you know, quite frankly, folks in the United States that can help them with that, that they might want to reach out to, since we are very good at that. But they need to, they need to do, I mean, yes, they have to have so much to talk about it, but it's going to have to move very quickly beyond words.

• 22:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:52Speaker 02

  And move in, move into action. In fact, the Polish president today said essentially, we have 500 Europeans begging 300, 500 million Europeans begging 300 million Americans to protect them from 140 million Russians. Right? So Europe needs to understand that they are responsible ultimately for their own defense. And right now they're, they're super concerned because they haven't prepared. Correct? I know I'm beating that drum pretty hard, but I think it's, I think it's important. I think they are, they collectively understand that now. It's just too bad it's taken this long. You know, the, the Chamberlain approach is made way to the Churchill approach.

• 23:37Speaker 03

  Um, some news out of today where the, a bunch of European leaders met with Zelensky. The UK Prime Minister.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  Keir Keir Starmer holds a press conference, some of the highlights that they're willing to send troops to Ukraine to protect the implementation of a peace deal. The UK and France have developed a plan to end hostilities in the Ukraine. Britain has loaned 5,000 air defense missiles to Ukraine. Starmer announced a new meeting with Trump on a peace plan for Ukraine.

• 24:10Speaker 03

  We will not recognize agreements like the Minsk agreements today. A number of EU countries said they wanted to be a part of a European peace plan in Ukraine. And Starmer apologized to the some of the leaders of Baltic states for not being invited to the summit. But it feels like the summit was kind of hastily put together, or I might be wrong on that. I don't know.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was probably put together because of the events.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  The Oval Office. I mean, they're not asking for me to how to run their plan for Europe, but I think it's safe to say that you need to invite everybody to the table. There seems to be a trend here.

• 24:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  You know, if if this is going to be a collective effort and every country contributes, they should have a seat at the table. Obviously, the big three are going to be the UK, France and Germany. But unless they want to take on the responsibility of protecting the rest of Europe, they need to include every country. Yeah, absolutely. What would why wouldn't you? I don't even understand why.

• 25:06Speaker 03

  Let's say the next couple of months go by and Europe gets their act together and they have some kind of framework for like a European defense force, right? Even if it's a carbon copy, if our NATO works, right? And the majority of EU countries are down. How long does that take to stand something like that up?

• 25:25Speaker 02

  It's going to take a while. Based on the to your point, they could duplicate or try to duplicate, use it as a model.

• 25:32Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  The NATO, the Supreme Allied Commander and all the staff that goes under that. But they have really relied on the US military capacity for NATO and actually everywhere we're deployed. I mean, that's one of the things that I guess it shouldn't have been surprising to me. But every time we talked about leaving a place, say Iraq, as soon as the US. You know, withdrew our infrastructure NATO couldn't be there.

• 26:00Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, it's Jack. I just want to talk to you for a moment about how you can support the show. If you've been watching it, enjoying it, but you'd like to get a little bit more involved and help us continue to do this, you can check out our Patreon. It is patreon.com/the team house. And for $5 a month, you can get access to all of these episodes of the team house ad free. The same goes with our affiliated podcast eyes on with Andy Milburn, Jason Lyons, Mc Mulroy. That one, you will also get all of those episodes ad free. And you support the channel and the show and we really appreciate it. The Patreon members are literally what has helped this company, this small business survive, especially during our early years.

• 26:45Jack Murphy?

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• 27:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, NATO was just like, we're leaving too, because we can't even feed ourselves. And this wasn't in an active war zone, right? This was in Iraq and the, you know, after the major combat operations to include ISIS. So this is something that they're going to have to really focus on intensely. I mean, almost, you know, To the exclusion of anything else other than economics, which is of course intimately tied to all this, to get up and running at any time that would be relevant to the current issue. But Russia's got to see that it's happening. So even even the process starting in earnest would send a strong message to Russia. They might double down on what they're doing in Ukraine to try to gather as much, and we can see that already

• 28:19Speaker 02

  today. They claimed to have taken more towns and they've obviously launched direct assaults on civilian infrastructure, war crime, of course, today, you know, after this has happened. But they need to, Europe, even starting the process, as long as it's more than just rhetoric and, you know, summits in London, it would send a strong message to the Russians. And there's also on top of this, right? So the biggest benefit they have right now is they are a nuclear power, even without the United.

• 28:50Speaker 04

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• 29:32Speaker 04

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• 29:50Speaker 06

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• 30:21Speaker 02

  States, right? So the UK and France have around 500 nuclear weapons. Unfortunately, the Russians have around 5,500 nuclear weapons. So I do, I do think there's going to be discussion on how to ensure the umbrella of nuclear protection between the UK and France is, you know, expanded to the rest of Europe. And if that's not easily doable, then I think you're going to see other countries like Germany looking to have their own nuclear arsenal. So we can also see a nuclear arms race spawn because of this.

• 30:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, huh? I was talking to my friends who are not like, don't read on this like I do, or obviously you do like where I like, I'm looking at this like all the time. And I told them like, cause there's talk about the US getting out of NATO, like from some senators and different people. Elon Musk, you know, I would, I would argue pretty, pretty influential people in the administration.

• 31:23Speaker 03

  And I told my buddies, like I got a couple of good amount of Greek buddies. I'm like, guys, imagine that we've never lived in a world ourselves without the US in NATO and having, I'm not saying an overarching hand, which I don't think we should have, we should be allies with these people. But we've never lived in a world where the US is not in NATO, right? And Greeks being Greeks, even if you're born in New York, know about the Turkish invading into Cyprus, all of that, right? We all know about it. NATO, Turkey's a NATO member, Greece is a NATO member. The US isn't there to like split up, stop a fight or provide arms or just keep the peace really. I'm like, you think it's out of the realm of possibility?

• 32:02Speaker 03

  I told, asked this to my friends where Turkey tries to take the rest of Cyprus or any of the other islands or something, right? Like, like we've never lived in a world where US isn't like the US influence isn't apparent. And especially Europe and across the world, right? So like, we don't know what it would look like with the United States completely isolated.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Right, and I imagine for those that want to be out of NATO, which obviously I think is a mistake. But that would also come with a significant reduction in any influence in Europe, right? So there's, I mean, with the same conversation, the people that are advocating for this, they're advocating to pull all of our forces out of Europe, right? So European Command, Africa Command are all in Europe. And that's to our benefit. I mean, I don't know how we would duplicate our forward presence for our own interest with that. Maybe there's some discussion on that, I haven't seen it. But it would also reduce not just the US's influence in NATO would go away,

• 33:12Speaker 02

  but also our influence around the world is we, they might not want us, or we might not want to be in Europe. I mean, the same, if that's the philosophy that holds true in, inside of our government, then our ability to project our force around the world is going to go down substantially. It's just a fact. You know, if you want to pull out of Europe, you want to pull out of NATO and pull our forces home, then, yeah, it's, it's the isolation, that would be the isolationist part of America succeeding, for sure.

• 33:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's interesting too, because it's not like there's a plethora of world peace going on. You know what I mean? It's not like we're, there's, everyone's getting along and everything's great. So you would think the US's instinct would be to not pull out of, you know, Europe or the rest of the world at this moment in time. I'm not saying invade anybody, but I'm saying, you know, use the pressure that 80 years has built to bring peace to this, you know, to Ukraine or wherever else.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it won the Cold War. This this alliance won the Cold War. And it's and it's only been used, you know, as far as the Article Five for benefit again. It's it's in, you know, and to my knowledge, nobody that came to our, I think it was one hundred to thirty something countries. They came to our assistance after nine eleven. Over a thousand dying in Afghanistan. I mean, I don't think they ever asked us for any money back.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  Uh, or to be paid back. I guess we could say, well, we cover your security. So there's that. But ultimately, it's in our own interest. I mean, we are the head of NATO, right? So it's and if if you're, I mean, I've I've criticized them a bit on their readiness to fight. But they can't fight. I mean, they can't fight. And if they get they get their act together, they do spend quite a bit on their national security, not as much as we wish they would, but they are they do. And more so than Russia, like if you just take the UK, France and Germany, they more than double expenditure of Russia's spends annually on their defense budget.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  Right? So the other part of this is the US is probably going to have to increase our defense budget. Right? Because we don't have the we would have, you know, taken this potential withdrawing from NATO. We don't have our allies. Right? So we're gonna have to make up for what they do provide. In more so than bases, but all the expenditures on their own national defense and capabilities. I mean, one could certainly make the argument that our budget annually would need to go from, you know, eight, nine hundred billion to one and a half plus trillion.

• 36:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, if. Yeah, I don't know how that's gonna go over with like voters and stuff like, you know, like. We all want a strong defense, but it's like what cost really, right? Like. Uh, you kind of got to thread that needle a little bit, at least pub, at least optically, at least PR wise. Uh, if you're a European country, one that doesn't have like a really strong military industrial base. And you're buying a lot of ton of weapons from the US. Are you worried? About like, let's say, the US does pull back. Maybe doesn't come out of NATO completely, but like, let's say.

• 36:42Speaker 03

  I don't know. They don't want to sell us weapons or give us parts to F thirty five. Like if I'm some small European country, Italy or whatever. And they don't want to give us parts to F thirty fives or things like that. Like, are you gonna turn more towards like European manufacturers to make sure that you get your stuff? Your orders filled and you make sure you have access to parts and stuff like that.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  Well, that's part of being in NATO is that you have preferential, you know, seat at the table when it comes to selling the arms made in the United States, right? So these are American, huge American companies that employ a lot of Americans. I could see Europe deciding, well, if you're out, then we're going to really focus on our own manufacturing of all these weapon systems and not. So you're probably gonna, I don't know if it'll be as public as you might expect, but there's going to be a lot of these huge defense industrial companies in the United States weighing in here pretty quick.

• 37:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  Um, and, and, and a point on the manufacturing, Russia produced more ammunition than Europe and the United States combined last year. So we got a series in the United States too, but also in Europe, we, we need to have the capacity, the manufacturing capacity, that if we're in a war, we can keep up. Now, we have the best, you know, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine, Space Force. But we don't have the capacity we need to even keep up with one hundred and fifty five millimeter rounds for artillery.

• 38:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  Uh, that's a fact. So that's something that Europe has to now look at and the United States that, um, essentially, we do, we have the best military. Europe could easily, I think with, with, not easily, with effort and expenditures, get to where they have the second best military.

• 38:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  But it, it still comes down to the, you know, attrition warfare where you have to have the manpower, which can be made up in some cases by drones. But you also have to have the manufacturing capability to keep up with the, you know, your adversary.

• 38:43Speaker 03

  Um, it, it, the one going back to that Oval Office meeting and the blow up, um, where J D Vance says like, are you were campaigning right with the opposition when he was in Pennsylvania? I mean, he went to Pennsylvania to see that Scranton factory that's doing the 155 millimeter shells. And okay, the Pennsylvania's got a Democratic governor. The, like, if a world leader's coming, you're gonna go there if you're the leader, the governor of any state, right? So I don't know if he was like Zelensky doing a campaign stop for, you know, Kamala and, and walls.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  Uh, it was just, I don't know, man, it was like, you want to berate somebody in, in, in private? Over to like, try to strong arm to get a better deal?

• 39:34Speaker 03

  Fine, but like doing it in front of everybody. While this guy Zelensky's like really trying to grind it out, like he's, he doesn't seem like he's having a great time, obviously, like who the hell would? Right? You're the president and your country's, uh, invaded and he didn't take off, you know, he wasn't like, uh, Gani, who just fucking rent fucked off. Um, so

• 40:00Speaker 03

  man, I just, I just don't see, I don't see the angle. I don't see the move that like, why we're doing this? Cause he was ready to sign that, that agreement to have a fund for 50% like, you got the mon- monetary, you know, you got the deal. So it's just, I don't even know, it's just super confusing.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  It is, and you know, uh, Vice President Vance voted against support for Ukraine. Right? So I'm not sure what he was talking about as far as thanking somebody. Um, I do think the Ukrainians should thank the Americans for the support, but I'm pretty sure he has.

• 40:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, like 30.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Right? So, um, it shouldn't be, you know, we require our partner countries to grumble, uh, in order to support them.

• 40:51Speaker 03

  Right?

• 40:54Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know about the campaign stuff, but obviously that if that was the case, that was not, not a good idea on the part of Ukraine. I imagine he didn't do that, but I'll, I don't know enough about that. But I would say that ultimately, if we wanted to goad him into something like that, it was, that's how to do it, right? And you also got to remember, the guy doesn't speak English that well. So if he, if he ever, I've speak, I don't really speak any other languages fluently, but I've learned enough to be able to communicate with people over my career. And not that I got in a lot of arguments with foreigners, but as soon as it, I've seen him in a room where there was an argument, I didn't understand what the hell

• 41:37Speaker 02

  they were saying. Right? It's, you've got to be, so I'm not making excuses for Zelensky with the, you know, folding arms and all that stuff. All I'm saying is ultimately, it's got to be bigger than any particular ego, even presidential egos. It's, this is in our interest. We, you know, other than China, which is clearly our adversary, Canada and Europe are our biggest trading partners. And actually, Canada is talking about joining the EU right now to protect themselves because they feel under threat economically. And so this, this could shift not only the international

• 42:15Speaker 02

  security alliances and allegiances, but also economic. It generally goes together, right? They generally, you know, if you're, if you're on the side, on my side in a fight, you're going to be my, on my side when it comes time to, you know, trade. So this is bigger than any particular meeting or person in my view, and it should be put back on the rails. I think Lieutenant General Kellogg, Special Agent Boy Kellogg, has the relationship with President Zelensky necessary. And obviously, Secretary Rubio, who has experience in foreign policy and has clearly been on the side of Ukraine in the past, as, as well as Mike Walz, right? So Mike Walz

• 42:59Speaker 02

  basically said that Zelensky was a modern day Churchill. Period. Right? And, you know, he's a...

• 43:07Speaker 02

  Former Green Beret, so when it comes to the compliments, that's about as high on the list as you can get. You know, Churchill's known for standing up to tyrants against all odds and, and leading his country. Yes, he eventually was like voted out of office. I know that's a point people have made, but we still consider him one of the most significant leaders in history.

• 43:30Speaker 03

  Right.

• 43:30Speaker 02

  Because of how he stood up.

• 43:31Speaker 03

  Right.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  To Nazi Germany. Right? So even if President Zelensky, and this isn't a, you know, is a President Zelensky's fan club session, but to your point, he didn't leave. He said, I don't need a ride. I need more bullets, right? So it's very Spartan, kind of horse or trailing, if you want to say. So, but if he leaves after this and Ukraine is, is intact and survives, then, you know, I'm sure he would do that. But this, again, this isn't about any, any particular person. This is about, one, our commitment to Ukraine, which people say, well, we didn't verify. That's like, that's almost like saying I had my hand behind my back.

• 44:09Speaker 03

  We didn't verify what? Like where the money was going?

• 44:11Speaker 02

  No, we promised that they, we would protect them if they gave away their nuclear.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  Oh, right. Okay.

• 44:17Speaker 02

  Right? So this, it wasn't a secret. It was an open, a consorted Russia, of course. And so did the UK.

• 44:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  But now we're saying, well, we never, we never got it, you know, ratified Senate. That's almost like, you know, saying I had my hand behind my back and fingers crossed, right?

• 44:30Speaker 03

  Sure. Yeah.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Dude, we have, do we have any integrity in our own word? And if that's the case, like that's just, what are we doing this time? We haven't even talked about Russia coming to the table for a ceasefire. And then if we get a ceasefire, they don't have any assurances from the United States that we're going to protect them if Russia violates the ceasefire.

• 44:48Speaker 03

  Right.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  Right? So, you know, from the Ukrainian point of view, and I think everybody would do well to look at, look at this issue from the other side.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Okay, so we gave you fifty percent of our rare earth minerals and we sign an agreement. Russia stops until they can get more North Koreans on the battlefield and we, you know, get their arsenals filled with artillery rounds, et cetera, et cetera. And then they start again.

• 45:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Right? So I think what the Europeans are gonna have to do in addition to getting their, you know, this European Defense Force is they're gonna have to, and I think you can see it today. They're talking about moving forces to the border, right? So this is, this is, uh, this is rapidly becoming what everybody was concerned.

• 45:35Speaker 03

  Right.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  It could be, it could be a massive war between Russia and Europe. And that would be in nobody's interest.

• 45:43Speaker 03

  No.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  And that would affect, you know, the world economy substantially.

• 45:47Speaker 03

  What is this, like the sixteen hundreds? Like Russia and Europe going about, you know, going to war? Knock on wood. I hope it never happens. Uh.

• 45:59Speaker 03

  Yikes. Oh, man, I never feel better after we speak. Um.

• 46:04Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 46:05Speaker 03

  That's okay.

• 46:07Speaker 03

  Um.

• 46:09Speaker 03

  I had a question. I forgot it. Uh, fuck.

• 46:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't know what the move is. Oh, like you, you brought up a couple of times. Um, that I feel like the media, especially American media is not really talking about is the fact that Russia hasn't really given any indication about any kind of concessions that they would make or that they're willing to do one thing or another in terms of making a deal. Um.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 46:38Speaker 03

  And that's not really reported at all. And like, you gotta have two people to dance, right? Like, there's gotta be two people to tango. Um.

• 46:48Speaker 03

  And I don't know how anyone trusts anything Russia has to say at this point.

• 46:53Speaker 02

  They don't, they shouldn't. And I think if you could look at it this way, if they're

• 46:58Speaker 04

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• 47:06Speaker 04

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• 48:28Speaker 02

  Is any pause, let's just call it a pause in the fighting. Yes, it could benefit Russia, but it can also benefit Ukraine. They could, you know, especially if Europe doubles. They're, the other part of this that nobody seems to be talking about, and when we talk about reparations or repaying, is there's about $325 billion worth of frozen Russian assets in Europe. I don't know the legalities of that, but you know what? That should be immediately released to Ukraine to purchase weapon systems and ammunition for the fight. Why are we talking about? I mean, that's who should, or maybe, and then if there's any leftover, then they can, then they can use that to repay the United States and Europe for our contributions. I mean, why?

• 49:11Speaker 02

  So we're now the, the smallest entity in this, right? Twenty eight times smaller than Russia is where everybody's focusing everything. The, the one country that was invaded had fifty thousand of their civilians killed.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  There's, there's three hundred and fifty or three hundred and twenty five billion, according to what I read. They need to immediately release that.

• 49:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  Immediately. Right? So that would be beneficial to the.

• 49:36Speaker 03

  Or use it, use it as like a, a character in the negotiations for an actual ceasefire, right? Like, we have this money of yours. You want any, any of it back? Cause if you don't, we're gonna make sure that Ukraine's flushed with javelins, one fifty five patriots and everything else they need.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  Everything, everything, right? And maybe you could even say every week that goes by that you don't agree to a ceasefire, we release fifty, fifty billion dollars, I don't know, something like that. And it just keeps getting released and released until it's now no longer a factor. But that's, but Ukraine gets the benefit of it. There's, there's, we gotta start coming up with leverages, leveraging what we have collectively, the West, against Russia.

• 50:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  Right? More sanctions, don't agree to ceasefire, more sanctions, don't agree to ceasefire, release more of your frozen assets, freeze more assets. Send more, you know, the, the only way, the only thing that Russia understands, going back to, you know, Stalin, is strength. You know, they have this old expression with bayonets, you know? If you proceed with bayonets, if you find mush, continue. If you find steel, withdraw. Like, they don't li- listen to any platitudes. They don't care if you try to, you know, say nice things about them. They only respond to strength or weakness. That's it. And they'll tell you that. It's part of their, you know, their whole being. And we got to start showing strength, which means, okay, you don't want a ceasefire, we'll double, we'll double what they're.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Okay, you don't want a ceasefire, we're releasing your frozen assets. And that needs to include Europe too, with all together collectively. And then they'll probably push them to the table for a recent ceasefire negotiation and it has to have some assurances. And in sending European forces into Ukraine could be an assurance, right?

• 51:24Speaker 03

  Right.

• 51:25Speaker 02

  If you start dealing European troops, you're essentially tracking attacking Europe and we can make that clear when they're deployed.

• 51:33Speaker 03

  Right.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  And another point, like the mineral deposits, right? Most of them are in the occupied areas. Right? So how do you?

• 51:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're right.

• 51:48Speaker 03

  It's not that, so it's not that simple, like of a deal.

• 51:52Speaker 02

  No, no, no. So I think it was surveyed in the Soviet times. That's why they keep calling them unproven, which means they don't actually know what they have. But say they do, say for whatever, for argument purposes, about 60% to my understanding, it is in the Russian controlled parts of Ukraine. So now we're working on 40% of unproven. It, it, it, according to the CSIS study that I read on it. It would take billions of dollars to put the infrastructure necessarily in place to get it out of the ground.

• 52:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  And it would take decade plus. If the US is willing to invest in it, which is, could be a really good investment. Especially if we're essentially not contributing to it. It's just a benefit. It also benefits Ukrainian people because the agreement would be made by, between the US and Ukraine. So we can't realize it if it's taken over by Russia, right?

• 52:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  So that, that I think, I think is a no brainer when it comes to President Zelensky signing it, maybe he's just decided.

• 52:57Speaker 03

  Right.

• 52:57Speaker 02

  He's decided, we can see if that will move on.

• 52:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:03Speaker 03

  Well, last thing, in terms of the 320 billion that Europe has frozen,

• 53:10Speaker 03

  you think there's a shot that Europe uses that as a negotiation tactic, like without the US involved?

• 53:17Speaker 02

  They could.

• 53:17Speaker 03

  Right?

• 53:18Speaker 02

  They control their banks.

• 53:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, I mean, it would seem like it would be the most logical and fair for them to use it to contribute to Ukraine directly, because they're the ones that had their country in it, right? And still, Europe does double, I think, their security assistance to Ukraine. This is all gonna, that's what the messages you want to send to Russia is. Anything else,

• 53:44Speaker 02

  not calling Putin a dictator, all that stuff doesn't matter to them. He's gonna look at whether we're strong or weak, and if we're weak, we're going forward. And actually, he might actually view nonstop compliments or non, non calling a spade a spade as weakness.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  I mean, how don't you? Yeah.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  Right, so, it really needs to be, I think, the US dictating terms to Russia.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  This is what we are willing to do, and this is what we're willing not to do, and this is what you need to be willing to do and start the conversation. And then have consequences if it's not going our way, okay? We're doubling our expenditures, so is Europe. Okay, we're moving European forces to the border. Okay, we're looking at taking in other European countries that aren't part of NATO into NATO. I mean, this idea that he only did this because Ukraine might be part of NATO is just not true. When Finland became part of NATO because of his actions, he said he didn't care. He literally, I think-

• 54:40Speaker 03

  And Sweden.

• 54:41Speaker 02

  But he said he didn't care.

• 54:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:42Speaker 02

  Right? And, you know, he knows he doesn't want to screw-

• 54:45Speaker 03

  He expanded NATO.

• 54:47Speaker 02

  He expanded NATO to countries that didn't join for the entirety of the Cold War. They stayed neutral, essentially, not neutral, but they weren't in NATO. They joined, right? So, there's gotta be consequences to Putin's continuous war in Ukraine. Or why stop? Unless he just runs out of bodies. I mean, they've lost, the amount of people they've lost is just staggering. It's it's truly staggering. It's, I mean, in two weeks, they lost more than we lost in the war in Iraq. Two weeks. Right? So but they don't care. I mean, Putin does not care about the the welfare soldiers at all. Clearly.

• 55:25Speaker 03

  You you have to assume at some point that's going to kind of come home to roost a little bit because like sure, you could probably get a bunch of, you know, mobilize a bunch of people from outside of St. Petersburg and Moscow for the most part, but you're going to run out of people to mobilize at certain points. Um, you're going to have to start pulling from like where those the power areas are in Russia. Where he's going to feel it at least at home, you would think.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're right. You're right, D, because there's there's not a whole lot of folks from Moscow on the front lines.

• 55:58Speaker 03

  Right.

• 55:59Speaker 02

  Right. His people are, you know, back there blogging about it, but it's those far flung regions of Russia where they're just going in and and taking people and send them to the front line with no trading or empty prisons or or hospitals, military hospitals. I mean, you've seen the reports of these guys on crutches in the front line sitting in a trench.

• 56:20Speaker 03

  On the donkeys to the where they're using donkeys to move equipment and stuff like that now.

• 56:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's what I don't get. Like, there's got to be some kind of turbulence back at home. I know he controls media and stuff like that, but you know, they got to have VPNs there or some shit like they got to try and, you know, disseminate some information that's like an again, like a anti Putin thing where, you know, your sons are getting chewed up into this war machine because if it's really 700,000 casualties, I try to imagine what it would be like in America if we were in a land war with somebody and we lost 700,000 people in 2024, 2025, they would be riots in the street. We would not be going for this. You know what I mean?

• 57:06Speaker 02

  Like in a land war of our choosing.

• 57:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  I mean, we launched the war in your scenario. If the US launched a war that we were didn't have to do and lost that we I mean, there would be no government in the United States. It would be sustained. They'd be all.

• 57:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Right. And rightfully so. But, you know, Putin doesn't have that problem. And interesting enough, although there's calls for Scolinski to resign, nobody's calling for Putin to resign. Right. The guy who started the war. Right. So I just think we need to get our priorities in order. And and I think we can. I don't think it's it. We know, bad week, bad week. It started last this week, I should say.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  You know, with us saying that, you know, Ukraine started the war and ended with that when we saw in the Oval Office. But, you know, next week is another week.

• 57:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, I feel like it can't get any worse.

• 57:57Speaker 02

  Flip the table back over, buy some rounds for everybody. Let's chill us. Let's get back on the same same team.

• 58:04Speaker 03

  Chill everybody out. I mean, yeah, I think Europe is going to need to step up big time. Germany's gonna have to step up big time.

• 58:12Speaker 03

  I'm sure the German public is not thrilled about like them building up their military back again, just from like historical kind of.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  There's a lot of jokes about that, you know, with Germany, like asking the world, are you sure you want us to create a giant land army in Europe? But, you know, they don't have a choice. So.

• 58:29Speaker 03

  No.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  They don't have a choice. Their army's only like sixty four thousand.

• 58:33Speaker 03

  I know. It's crazy. And they have eighty million people?

• 58:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, they could. They could easily quadruple the size of their army. Of course, it takes time to get trained and all that stuff. But again, part of it is showing Russia that it's happening.

• 58:52Speaker 03

  Right.

• 58:52Speaker 02

  Like if they laid out the plan, this is what we're gonna do. And by the end of it, we're gonna be, you know, the second strongest military in the world behind the United States, Russia will see it happening and then do it. They don't just, you know, tweet it and give speeches about and at summits. It's gotta be. It's gotta be something they they visualize on the ground happening. And it'll be in the best interest of Europe and the best interest of the United States as a partner to Europe if they do. And that, I think, not just President Trump, but President Biden, Obama, Bush, all said that. All said that Europe was not doing their fair share when it came to the collective security of the coalition.

• 59:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, interesting times, man. I didn't, I, you know.

• 59:40Speaker 03

  What else? Uh, I mean, you want to touch on Gaza and what's going on there? Um, quickly?

• 59:47Speaker 02

  I can, yeah. So it looks like there was an effort to extend the first phase of the ceasefire. Or there was an effort, you know, Israel asked for that to happen. The reason being is the second phases is essentially the end of the war, right? So you've got Prime Minister Netanyahu, who would have to agree to withdraw Israeli Defense Forces for the second phase. That means a vacuum of security. That means Hamas, what's left of it, could potentially regrow and reconstitute itself in some form of authority in Gaza. That's unacceptable to the Israelis. It would be unacceptable, I think, to any country. So you got to recognize

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  just how difficult that decision would be for, and it might bring down the coalition government, which is not, you know, the world's issue, but from Israel's perspective collectively, not just Prime Minister Netanyahu, leaving Gaza without an assurance that Hamas won't rebuild and then constitute threat against, just not acceptable. So if they expand the the first phase, which Hamas apparently is against,

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  they would continue to have the three hostages come out and the 300 Palestinian prisoners released. They would agree to the increased humanitarian aid and according to many reports today, Israel is going to cut out humanitarian assistance if they don't agree to the, to the extending the first phase. I mean, the situation in Gaza is going to get extraordinarily dire and the war is going to start again. Potentially.

• 1:01:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  Because if those hostages are coming out, then from Israel's perspective, the war is back on and we can see them preparing their call, their, you know, notifying units, putting them on a state of readiness, which means it could resume fighting and they're giving reservists notice and they're calling out reservists. So it looks like that's where we're headed unless Special Envoy Whitkop can, can get these second phase negotiations started in earnest and an extension of the first, first phase.

• 1:02:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, so don't take your eyes off of Israel and Palestine and what's going on there. And you see what's also going on with Syria too. It seems to be

• 1:02:13Speaker 03

  a concerted kind of effort to try and keep Syria decentralized and weaker by Israel, Israel.

• 1:02:21Speaker 03

  I mean, that's just another whole can of worms. We'll have Lister back on. He's, he's great.

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, he is. He's a good guy to talk to on Syria for sure. Middle East Institute, which I'm a part of.

• 1:02:33Speaker 03

  Um, anything else, Mick?

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  Well, I would like to say since I had, and I mentioned this before we started, I had the opportunity to speak to the Naval Academy on Stoicism yesterday.

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  Super in inspired, to be frank, it was, it went well beyond what it was scheduled for because of the questions. That's why I'm bringing it up. And they, it was clear, and if you're not familiar with Stoicism, it's a very old philosophy that's been infused in Western, Western civilizations since democracy. Right? So it's made a resurgence. I've been a stoic for my whole life, but it's good to see that it's a resurgence and it really has come on strong in the military. Right? So it's like required reading at most of our academies or OCS efforts inside the military. It was the Marine Corps for sure. And it was clear that these young midshipmen knew what they were talking about based on their question. So.

• 1:03:32Speaker 04

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture, Depamocumab ULAa. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extenture is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extenture is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicine. Including steroids unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection.

• 1:04:15Speaker 04

  Common cold sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or flu like symptoms. Joint pain or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extensure. Learn more at Extensure.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 1:04:33Speaker 06

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• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  And if you, and again, if you're not familiar with it, it, uh, there's much to it. But one of it is essentially the four cardinal virtues of courage, wisdom, justice and self discipline is what I like to refer to the fourth one as. And it is, it is something that our society, I think, should be based on. It has been in many cases in the past, and certainly it is a pivotal part of any military member's career. Cause all of those things are needed and will be challenged. And I think they understand that, and it was really inspirational to hear the level of understanding of what we were talking about and interest for sure.

• 1:05:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of, uh, young men could really use it. I think it, it would, not the bastardized version of it, obviously, like the real version of it with people that are like good faith practitioners.

• 1:05:59Speaker 03

  I think a lot of people could benefit from it in a time where like, there's not many, there's not many role models out there for like young, young dudes. Myself included, I might not that young and, uh, shout out to Greece because we started it.

• 1:06:14Speaker 02

  You did, yes, started in Athens and. Right around the time is the dawn of democracy, right? You can actually go for those and I bet you there are some Stoics in our audience. If you get to Athens, Google the James Joyce Irish pub and not just because I love me some Irish pubs. Because if you go to it, you're standing right next to where they found the stoa polki.

• 1:06:36Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 1:06:37Speaker 02

  Literally, it's right next to the American group, academic group, found it. And bought the taverna that was on it. And now they are excavating it. You could sit in the pub. You know, have a pint and it's right there. I mean, you can see it. Yeah, it's literally like, you know, like 10 feet from the front door and then you've got, you know, tables and stuff and. You know, if it's like two of my favorite things, right? And it's right there. So if you're, if you're in, in Athens in particular, I would highly recommend it. It's right next to the Agora, right under the Acropolis, right where everything significant happened in ancient Greece, quite frankly. When it came to philosophy and democracy.

• 1:07:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, all the good stuff. So you're welcome, world. I'll take the, I'll take the full.

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  And we do need, I mean, yes, I think young men do really come to Stoicism for good, good outcomes, but we need more. We need women. We need, it's, it tends to really attract the military people and, you know, and. And it certainly attracts business people now, especially the business people want like a broader meaning to what they're doing. Athletes are a big, when I go to these conferences, those are the three main groups, but we need everybody. It's scientists, scientists. That's how I got into it. My dad was scientist. So those are the groups that I see mostly, but we need to expand it. We can expand it to.

• 1:08:09Speaker 02

  Make it not a, you know, a male thing. It needs to be. And if you really, if you go back and I don't want to turn this whole thing into a, throw us in a podcast, which I could.

• 1:08:17Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:08:18Speaker 02

  If you could go back to Zeno, the founder, he wrote an alternative to Plato's Republic. And if you have a time to read about that, you would be surprised at just how advanced it would be even for today. Even for today's world, it would be advanced. And I think he did that on purpose. But it is very inclusive. It's very meritocracy. It is very against the caste type of system of hereditary leadership, uh, which you could argue Plato's was more aligned with.

• 1:08:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  So it is, it is a very relevant, uh, to not just, you know, military, uh, folks or males. It is very relevant to everybody and it always has been. If you looked at it, it's the origins. You'll see just what I mean.

• 1:09:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, you wrote a great article about that too. Uh, the, what you just discussed. Yeah.

• 1:09:09Speaker 02

  Tale of two republics.

• 1:09:11Speaker 03

  That link is in the description, actually, if you guys are interested. So you could go check it out there.

• 1:09:17Speaker 03

  Mick, this is great. I appreciate it. I was worried we weren't going to have enough to talk about, but I'm glad we,

• 1:09:22Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:09:22Speaker 03

  We, we crank through it. I feel like we could have sat here for a longer too.

• 1:09:28Speaker 02

  Hopefully it's helpful to people. We're trying to give, give the facts and some analysis and not just, uh, you know, you know, a political, I don't have a political perspective.

• 1:09:37Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  This is, this is a national security perspective.

• 1:09:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, guys, don't, we're in a group chat and I try to get it out of Mick, even in our private group chats and he still doesn't give it to me. So,

• 1:09:49Speaker 03

  so you could trust Mick. Uh, me, not so much, but

• 1:09:55Speaker 03

  guys, do me a favor. Check out Mick's, all of his links are down, uh, down in the description. His, uh, Twitter, Blue Sky, LinkedIn, Lobo Institute, Fogbo, doing great work. Uh, all the mixed publications too. If you want to read that article that he wrote about Stoicism, it's in the, the description and in the show notes. If you're listening to us on audio, everybody else's links as well. Andy Milburn's book, When the Tempest Gathers, down in the description. Jason Lyons, everybody. Um.

• 1:10:26Speaker 03

  Buy some merch. We have eyes on merch, you know, eyes on t-shirts, eyes on mugs. Check it out. That link is also in the description. And the best way you could possibly support the show is the patreon.com slash the team house. I'm almost done with my sales pitch. You get ad free episodes. You get early access to episodes. What else you get? If you become a $10 member, I myself send you a patch, a team house patch. And if you're want to get crazy and become $100 member, you could do zoom meetings with Jack and Dave once a month if you want. So patreon.com slash the team house. Thanks for through my, my sales pitch. No problem, buddy. See.

• 1:11:07Speaker 04

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture, Depomocumab ULAa. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extenture is an ultra-long acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma eosinophilic type ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extenture is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection,

• 1:11:50Speaker 04

  common cold, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or flulike symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extenture. Learn more at extenture.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 1:12:07Speaker 00

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• 1:12:36Speaker 03

  Thanks, next time. See you next week.

• 1:12:48Speaker 04

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture, Depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extenture is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extenture is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection, common cold, sinus infection,

• 1:13:33Speaker 04

  inflammation in the nose, flu or fluke-like symptoms, joint pain, or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extenture. Learn more at Extenture.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 1:13:48Speaker 00

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• 1:14:29Speaker 04

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture, Depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting... It may be time to try something else. Extensure is an ultra-long-acting prescription-maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extensure is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose, every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection.

• 1:15:12Speaker 04

  Common colds, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or fluke-like symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks, and ask your doctor about Extensure. Learn more at Extensure.com, or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 1:15:29Speaker 06

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• 1:15:57Speaker 04

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extensure. Depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extensure is an ultra-long-acting prescription-maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extensure is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose, every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection.

• 1:16:40Speaker 04

  Common colds, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or fluke-like symptoms, joint pain or sore may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extensure. Learn more at Extensure.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 1:16:58Speaker 06

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star Trust Pilot Reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at OnDeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.