104: How to Be Liked While Maintaining Discipline and Authority. Identify an Unclear Enemy. Improve Tact While Still Being Aggressive/Assertive.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:00:18 - How to lead laterally amongst peers were competition is prevalent. 0:04:47 - Dealing with Jiu Jitsu Schools with low-level training. 0:13:56 - How to improve tact while still being aggressive and assertive. 0:20:16 - Will Jiu Jitsu help with emotional bullying? And how? 0:30:32 - how to deal with bitter team members after you get promoted. 0:36:43 - How to prioritize and execute tasks that pile up quickly. 0:46:27 - How to deal with losing in Jiu Jitsu competition. 0:53:01 - How to still be liked while maintaining discipline and authority. 1:00:25 - How to identify an unclear enemy in life. 1:10:00 - Support: JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, Super Krill Oil and Joint Warfare http://originmaine.com/origin-labs/jocko/, Origin Brand Apparel and Jocko Gi http://www.originmaine.com, withJocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com, Onnit Fitness stuff, http://www.onnit.com/jocko and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. http://amzn.to/2szgaEj 1:27:49 - Closing gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 104 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  We're going to go right into Q and A.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 0:13Jocko Willink?

  I don't think there's anything to discuss. Let's do it.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's do it then.

• 0:16Jocko Willink?

  It's Q and A. It's Q and A time.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  All right. Question number one, you discuss leading and maneuvering up and down the chain of command. But what about laterally within your own peer group where the competition for advancement is fiercest? And your ability to set team objectives and implement some of the tools you discuss is limited.

• 0:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so you absolutely do have to lead laterally amongst your peers. And since you don't have rank or position, you have to do it another way.

• 0:49Jocko Willink?

  But wait a second, since you shouldn't use rank or position to lead people below you in the chain of command. And since you don't want to be led by someone that's throwing their rank and position around, then guess what? You need to do the same type of leadership that you would use up and down the chain of command to lead your peers.

• 1:09Jocko Willink?

  So what does that mean? That means you help them when you can.

• 1:14Jocko Willink?

  You support what they're doing. You try and build a relationship with them. That's what you try and do. Now, this, this part of this that we're, we're talking about their competitiveness. Like if they want to maneuver and try and make you look bad and jump in the spotlight and try and get all the credit. Guess what? It's fine. That's fine. Let them do it. And everyone is going to see what they're doing. And they might not see it immediately, but they will eventually be found out. So do your best to support them. Do your best to help them. Do your best to build the relationship. Make the mission the most important thing, not the little politics that you're about to dive into and get involved in. Don't make that the primary thing. Make the primary thing accomplishing the mission.

• 2:01Jocko Willink?

  Think about this, if you start fighting with them, you're expending energy on fighting your own team. That's what you're doing. Instead of fighting the enemy. It's, this is a blue on blue situation. This is friendly fire. It's fratricide. Don't do that. Disengage from the friendly fire and focus on how to make the team win.

• 2:22Jocko Willink?

  Take the high ground. Take the high ground, or the high ground will take you.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  Another one of those points that we always say, I know I do, and I always think this where people are watching, man. They see that. They see that. They see all that stuff.

• 2:40Jocko Willink?

  But let's play this game too. You know, the game where I play where like, who would you hire? Who would you rather have working for you? Who would you rather have working for you? The guy, the guy, oh, you got four guys. One guy is helping the other guys out, trying to help them with their mission. One guy, the other end of the spectrum is undermining people and trying to make himself look good. Which guy are you going to promote?

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:02Jocko Willink?

  All day long, you know who you're going to promote.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:04Jocko Willink?

  You're going to promote the guy that's trying to help the team win and not just look out for himself.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah, fully. And then

• 3:11Jocko Willink?

  That's it.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  And consider that with not just your boss, but like your peers as well. You know, even if there's competition, let's say there's everyone's competing.

• 3:19Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  And you're the guy who's jumping in the spotlight, always whatever, versus the other guy who's always helping everyone.

• 3:27Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Even the, even if they're competing with you.

• 3:29Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  The guy who's jumping the spotlight, he's gonna get ostracized if anything.

• 3:33Jocko Willink?

  He is.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  You know? So, man, yeah, they, they see that stuff, man. That goes socially too.

• 3:37Jocko Willink?

  You know what? Now, now, now, answer me this. When someone sees the world this way, that means they have a tendency to think that way. That means they might have a tendency to act this way. So they gotta be especially cautious. If you're looking at everyone like, well, I'm trying to compete with that guy. And if I might be getting screwed over if I don't, if, if I let him, you know, get the spotlight right now. If that's the way you're thinking, that's the way you're acting. And if you're acting that way, everybody can see it.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:03Jocko Willink?

  So don't act that way.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Don't act that way.

• 4:05Jocko Willink?

  Be a good team member.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:07Jocko Willink?

  The enemy is outside the wire.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good one too, where

• 4:12Speaker 01

  The good news about that is like, let's say you are acting that way, as long as you can admit it to yourself. Even if you do have those feelings inside, but you're like, hey, I don't want to act like that. And you start, even if, you know, it's kind of against your feelings. And then you start acting that way slowly and slowly, your feelings kind of accommodate where you don't feel that way anymore. You'll start to feel that way less and less.

• 4:32Jocko Willink?

  You'll start to realize how you should act as a human being, as a team member, as a leader, as a follower. Yeah, you'll grow up, you'll mature, you'll be a good person.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Feel the benefits.

• 4:41Jocko Willink?

  As opposed to just looking out for yourself, screwing over the other team.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that one's against me.

• 4:46Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Kill or be killed. Next question. My jujitsu school is small and I'm a white belt under three months. And there are typically two or three blues and maybe a purple belt in the class with us. When I train or spar with the blue and purple belts, I can win the advantage or submit them. More than half the time. They don't like me because of this. I like what my instructor is teaching, but I feel I need more of a challenge. Should I find more, a more competitive school? Your time is appreciated.

• 5:20Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so there's something very sus- suspect going on here.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:24Jocko Willink?

  There's something wrong with the school if you are a white belt that can submit blues and purples. And I don't know, maybe, maybe if you're 500 pounds or just a super athlete. But if you're a normal person, even if you wrestled in high school, maybe even if you wrestled in college. And you, you've been training jujitsu for three months. You should not be submitting purple belts. That should not be happening. There's, there's, now there is a small chance, a tiny, tiny chance. That they're just being like so super cool. That they're letting, that like they're saying, oh yeah, you know, oh, that was good. You know, you caught me at my arm and they're just giving it to you, you're just too dumb to realize that. But since you're saying that they don't like you because you're submitting them.

• 6:09Jocko Willink?

  That, that, that's very unlikely that they're just super nice. So I think you may actually be in a fraudulent situation where the school is not a proper school. And I haven't heard of one of these in a while, but you, a white belt should not be. On the regular submitting a blue belt and definitely a purple belt or any purple belts. If there's a massive size differential.

• 6:34Jocko Willink?

  It'd be an occasional occurrence, but on the regular, it shouldn't be happening.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:39Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Correct. Yeah, I mean, unless again, like there's maybe. And maybe it's a small school, you know, there's, you know, a few people, maybe like some real old people or something like that. Maybe this guy. I don't know how big he is, but let's say he was two, I'm getting real specific here. What if he's two twenty-five? Solid. Six two.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Mayorman out of being a college wrestler.

• 7:10Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Learned a few chokes, guillotine, um, you know, head and arm, uh, an arm bar, you know, guys pick up.

• 7:19Jocko Willink?

  So he's two twenty-five, college wrestler, six-two, and he knows basic submissions? That, that, that could be problematic.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  And then the rest of the people, there's maybe like a sixty-five year old, hundred thirty-five, hundred forty-five pounds, um, maybe, you know.

• 7:36Jocko Willink?

  If there's no extreme.

• 7:40Jocko Willink?

  Disparagey between you and the other students, we have a problem.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:45Jocko Willink?

  If there's an extreme disparagey, even then, you should go look around because even if you're, even if you're two hundred and twenty-five pounds, six foot two, wrestled in college. Most purple belts should be able to handle you if you've only been training for two months.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yeah.

• 8:00Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, even three, man, I was not to say my situation, so here's proof, I'm not saying that, but just an example. I was two, when I started, I was two twenty-five.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  I'd say when I really settled into it, I lost, I got down to about two fifteen, two twenty.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  And I was white belt over three months, by the way, and I rolled with this guy, George was his name, you might remember him, small teeny guy, five-six.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Purple belt and no chance I had with this guy. And I was, this is more than three months, by the way, this is after I started competing and everything.

• 8:36Jocko Willink?

  Good too.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, purple belt. He's the one who taught me butterfly guard, by the way, him and Jimmy. But yeah, no chance.

• 8:42Jocko Willink?

  A purple belt like him, you have no chance against.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, but this is not a big guy. This is a guy who's about five-six, not, you know.

• 8:48Jocko Willink?

  I think he might be smaller than five-six.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's a small guy.

• 8:51Jocko Willink?

  I like.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a great example. That's a great example. I'm trying to think, I mean, when I started jiu-jitsu, I was two hundred and fifteen pounds.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Well, it was bigger than you.

• 9:03Jocko Willink?

  Two hundred and fifteen pounds and Dean was a blue belt, just got his blue belt.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:11Jocko Willink?

  And I had no chance.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:14Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:15Jocko Willink?

  And he, and oh, and by the way, I forgot to mention Dean weighed a hundred and seventy-four pounds.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:19Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's very similar.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, you'd have to, like, yeah, the disparity between the two would have to be a lot, a lot.

• 9:27Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  So what do you think it is then?

• 9:29Jocko Willink?

  I think like it might be a fraudulent school.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Like how, like what?

• 9:32Jocko Willink?

  Uh, the instructor, the instructor's not a real black belt. The instructor knows he's watched enough YouTube to show an arm lock and he can actually do it on the purple belt because he's, he's bigger and stronger or something.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:45Jocko Willink?

  And he knows it a little bit better because let's face it, if you, if, if you're a, if you watched YouTube and you studied as hard as I could, as you could, and you owned a school.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:54Jocko Willink?

  And you trained all the time, you could be a blue belt level. And then you can be the other blue belts that you taught.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:03Jocko Willink?

  And then gave the blue belt because you gave yourself a black belt. That's probably what's going on.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 10:09Jocko Willink?

  Whoever this is, hit me up again and tell me what your school is.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:13Jocko Willink?

  On Facebook, wherever this question.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Once you do that and once you, you know, and I don't, I don't know, I mean, is that, is that like a, is that a hard move to be like, hey, this is my school and put it out there, you know? And here's my instructor. I mean, on one hand, you want to think if the instructor is legit, no, no.

• 10:32Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's what I would want to know. I'd, I'd want, if the, if the guy wasn't legit, I don't know what I'd do. I don't have a plan for that, but if the guy was legit, I'd come back on here and say, oh, here's the situation. We found out that this is what's going on.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:44Jocko Willink?

  You are a six-two, two-hundred-and-eighty-five-pound collegiate NCAA champion wrestler and you studied sambo. Or ju, like if somebody had sambo or judo under their belt.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Yep, that's true.

• 10:55Jocko Willink?

  But you wouldn't even be asking this question if you had that under your belt because you'd know the answer.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true too. Yeah, man. So, yeah, I think, yeah, the chance of that is, is fair. It's a fair chance fraudulent situation.

• 11:06Jocko Willink?

  I haven't, I haven't seen too many of those lately.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, because that's a rare thing.

• 11:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the internet can mop those up now.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:11Jocko Willink?

  It used to be all kinds of fraudulent schools.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense. I mean, think about it, the internet is all over everything.

• 11:17Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  You get even a halfway fraudulent person.

• 11:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  It's like, okay, is this guy fraudulent? You know what I mean? It's like, man, you're really held to the coals. So I don't know, maybe do it up.

• 11:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I was gonna say, we have some kind of thing on our website where we have, if you're legit school, like a Jocko approved school.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  In theory.

• 11:41Jocko Willink?

  Because how many times a day do you get asked, I live in Tennessee, where should I train? I live in Chicago, where should I train? How many times do you get asked that a day?

• 11:49Speaker 01

  Half, so every other day is, is that about?

• 11:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really? Okay, I get asked more than that. I get asked a lot. More than you. Maybe not tons more, but definitely I get asked repeatedly.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:00Jocko Willink?

  Where should I train? I live in Jacksonville, Florida. Where should I train? I live in wherever, Concord, New Hampshire. Where do I, where, where should I train? I live in Salt Lake City, Utah. You know what I mean? People are always asking that.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, the only risk with that is like, okay, so first off, we don't know all the schools. We really don't even know half the schools. And just because you say you're under Hickson, it doesn't mean you're legit. You know, so it's like.

• 12:22Jocko Willink?

  So we'd have to have some sort of an approval process.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then at the end of the day, let's say you approve, I don't know.

• 12:28Jocko Willink?

  Someplace and then it, then.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, people will see it. Or no, no, or people will be like, okay, here's the page or the website or whatever. They'll be like, okay, this school that I'm like looking at, I like it, but it's not on this list. I don't know, we didn't get to it kind of thing. And then it gets kind of like the ding, you know? In that way.

• 12:44Jocko Willink?

  It shouldn't be that much of a problem, by the way. There's not that many fraudulent schools. We're talking about one right now, possibly, but there's not many out there. Although there are some.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're like.

• 12:54Jocko Willink?

  They're in strip malls. You drive by like a strip mall and you see something that says jujitsu. I mean, now there's legit schools in strip malls too.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Comprido's school is in a strip mall and he's as legit as he gets. So it's, it's hard, you know?

• 13:09Speaker 01

  I don't know, but yeah, the.

• 13:11Jocko Willink?

  There's actually, strip malls is actually the normal place for Jitsu schools now that I think about it.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a lot of Gracie. Yeah, his one is straight up in the mall.

• 13:21Jocko Willink?

  Oh, and that's not a strip mall, that's a mall.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, a mall mall.

• 13:24Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna have to go visit Comprido.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. See, if you watch that video I did with him for Metamorphs a long time ago, it's like he'll, I forget if it was in the outtakes or not, but there's this cool, you know, those trains that go around the mall for the kids? He's like, I hate the chuchu train because it always comes by my academy.

• 13:41Jocko Willink?

  That's funny, especially because Comprido's such a nice guy. You figured he'd be like, I love that chuchu train.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Even, that's exactly how he said it. That's how he sounded, but he says, I hate it. Meanwhile, he's smiling and laughing. It's very interesting dichotomy. Anyway, yeah, more information needed on this academy. Next question.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  I am seen at work as a very assertive and aggressive dude. And I seem to rub people the wrong way. When they think I'm upset or frustrated at problems they they present, which is rarely the case. I'm just so fired up.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  How do I work on my tact while still being assertive with my team?

• 14:17Jocko Willink?

  You know what? I'm fired up too.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 14:20Jocko Willink?

  How you like that?

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Take it.

• 14:22Jocko Willink?

  And when I was young, I this is. When I was young, sure, I rubbed some people the wrong way. I know that. Even when I was a young kid working on a construction site, guess what I was doing? Working too hard, making people rubbing people the wrong way. When I got to the team, there was a little crew of us that were too hardcore. We were too fired up. We were. I would run the O course with my with with a rucksack with a forty pound pack, forty pound sandbag in it. No one was doing that. Like, everyone does it now, but back then, there was a small crew of us that were doing it. Running with jungle boots all the time instead of in sneakers. And I literally got pulled aside by some of the old guys. And by old guys, I don't mean NOM.

• 15:06Jocko Willink?

  I mean, old guys from wherever, you know, from the from the nineties. Or the late eighties. And, you know, I'd get the, hey, you just need to calm down, dude.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:17Jocko Willink?

  You know, you don't need to do that. And so, yeah, maybe I rubbed those guys a little bit the wrong way. Understandable. But when I got a little older and a little bit more mature.

• 15:28Jocko Willink?

  I got fired up to actually do a good job as a leader, to actually build relationships with my platoon mates. And I got fired up.

• 15:41Jocko Willink?

  For people to, instead of thinking that I was upset or frustrated, what I was fired up is I wanted people to think that I was calm and cool and collected. So how's that for totally different? It's like when we say default aggressive.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:53Jocko Willink?

  And I always say, hey, you're not being aggressive and this isn't being aggressive towards your people. It's not yelling. It's being aggressive towards your mission. I was, I'm aggressive towards making people think that I'm not upset. And that no matter what's going on, the thing is, man, Jock was, he's not going to lose his temper. He's super level headed.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:08Jocko Willink?

  Right? Now, now. That being shed, that doesn't mean that I was passive. That doesn't mean that I wasn't assertive. It means that I was aggressive and assertive, but I did it with tact and instead of coming at people straight on, I flanked them.

• 16:26Jocko Willink?

  I've listened to their little ideas or I made their ideas come from me, but they didn't know it. I listened to their solutions. I helped and supported. Well, you go so far just by helping people out. And helping them with their idea instead of trying to control them and make everything your idea.

• 16:44Jocko Willink?

  So that's my advice here. Relax, calm down, focus. Get fired up, get aggressive about being tactful, get aggressive about working with people. Get aggressive about showing your calmness. That's what you get aggressive about.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:04Jocko Willink?

  Don't get assertive, aggressive and create antagonistic relationships across your company.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:12Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, sounds good. He said he, he gets, or they think he gets upset or frustrated at problems that they present. Which is rarely the case, he said. He said, I'm just fired up. So it's, it's, it seems like, and I'm no expert, but I'm trying to put myself in this position where like, I think maybe like it is just a presentation thing. You know, like

• 17:38Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, definitely.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Is aggressive. Like he's saying he's not even getting frustrated.

• 17:43Jocko Willink?

  No, I'm getting frustrated with him for acting this way.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, aggressive is like a mindset. Yeah.

• 17:51Jocko Willink?

  It's definitely a presentation thing. No doubt about it.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:55Jocko Willink?

  But so that means you say, okay, I'm presenting the wrong thing. I will fix what I'm presenting.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do, do you think?

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Actually, I think you do think this or know this or whatever. Oh, you know how people they'll, they'll get nuts or whatever. They'll, they'll, they'll be aggressive. They get fired up, right? And you know, whether it be they'll lose their temper or they're behaving a way that's, that's aggressive towards people. And their justification is not to say that this guy does this. I don't know, but I'm just saying their justification is I'm just passionate.

• 18:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  About it. I'm just whatever, you know?

• 18:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Is that, that's just a justification, right?

• 18:40Jocko Willink?

  It is.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Because, yeah, like if, at the end of the day.

• 18:44Jocko Willink?

  It is, it's a ju- it's a justification. It is also a reality. So think about it from the other perspective. If, if you're dealing with someone, if you have someone on your team that gets all, that they're, they're passionate about something. And it can be problematic if they don't learn to control their passions, right? Cause they just get, hey, we're gonna make this happen. And they make bad decisions because they're so passionate about making something happen that they're not, they're not doing something logical. So yes, you could say it's just an excuse and there's no such thing as a passionate person, but that actually wouldn't be true. It's not an excuse. It's a real thing. Now, if you are aware of that, then why do you keep acting that way? You gotta put your passions into check. That's what you gotta do.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Yeah. And, and I meant more like it's an excuse for their behavior. You know, like to me, I personally, I think that being passionate about something that you're into is good. Way beneficial.

• 19:35Jocko Willink?

  Of course.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  But again, you know how I say like, there's a difference between what you feel and how you behave, you know? So if you're, if you're super passionate about something, it doesn't justify like all this irrational or emotional or like loss of temper situation, behavior. See what I'm saying? So, you know, yeah, be passionate, but don't behave in some crazy off the handle way.

• 19:59Jocko Willink?

  I agree.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  So I think that they use their passion as an excuse for their behavior.

• 20:04Jocko Willink?

  I just got a quick temper, man.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:06Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't mean that you can act like an idiot.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Well, that's worse. That's

• 20:09Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, but it's the same, it's the same thing.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Same deal. Yeah.

• 20:12Jocko Willink?

  Same thing.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Exactly. Right. Yeah. That's just who I am. I'm unique in that way. Next question. My wife told me that she thinks our 11 year old daughter is being bullied emotionally by some girls at school. As I drove into work, I wondered if jujitsu would give her some tools to help her deal with emotional stress and or bullying that might be taking place.

• 20:34Jocko Willink?

  I think we all know the answer that Doka will give to this question. Absolutely. Jujitsu will help. 11 years old is a perfect age for getting in there and you will learn to, she will learn to defend herself for real in physical confrontations, which will give her real confrontation, which will give her confidence. Because let's face it, emotional and verbal bullying is absolutely backed up by a either.

• 21:02Jocko Willink?

  Clear message of possible violence or a subliminal message of possible violence, right? I mean, a big, a girl that's getting picked on, the, the, the underlying message is there, the implied message is there that it's, it could go physical if it had to. And when that gets removed, because the, the daughter knows how to now fight and defend herself, that starts to impact these emotional bullies as well. So, yes, absolutely, get her training. I would throw some boxing in there too, just because that is a pretty empowering thing. You're punching something that feels good. And you know what? While we're at it, let's get some

• 21:45Jocko Willink?

  working out going on, right? Get a pull-up bar, get away the warrior kid. No kidding. Get, absolutely get her way of the warrior kid. Don't baby her too much.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:56Jocko Willink?

  You gotta be careful of that because she's your daughter and you say, oh, you know, it's so horrible. And these girls are picking at you. Don't, don't do that because guess what? She's going to be dealing with this her whole life. You're going to be get, there's always bullies in every environment, in the, in school environment, in the work environment, in everywhere, there's bullies. And she's going to have to deal with them. So, don't, don't baby her where she thinks that you're the one that's going to save her from it. Um, and I also think she should know that everyone gets bullied. I got asked that when way the warrior kid came out. Someone said, well, did you get bullied? And they think, of course, I would never get bullied because I'm a big dude. Well, guess what? When I was nine years old, I was a scrawny little

• 22:39Jocko Willink?

  nine-year-old kid and everybody that was 11 was bigger than me and stronger than me.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:45Jocko Willink?

  And then when I was 11, everyone that was 13 was bigger than me and stronger than me. And when I was 14, everyone that was 16 was bigger than me and stronger than me. So, so you, we, no matter who you are as a kid, there's always somebody that's bigger and stronger than you that's going to bully you if they're a jerk. So, I think she should understand that she's getting bullied right now, but that's, that happens to people and people get over it and get through it.

• 23:10Jocko Willink?

  And I do think you have to be, when you say that, you can't leave the, you can't overwhelm her and say, everyone gets bullied and you're gonna always get bullied in the office. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not saying to overwhelm her and think that's just like, there's a, there's a lot. Did you ever see the movie The Professional?

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Which one was it?

• 23:28Jocko Willink?

  The French guy?

• 23:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Leon.

• 23:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a great scene in that movie where the girl is, there's like a crazy fight going on between her parents in the apartment. They're yelling at each other, they're screaming, they're slapping people, domestic violence is going on and she comes out and she's sitting in the hallway. And she's crying and the assassin guy kinda walks up the stairs. And, and she looks, and he looks at her and she looks at him and, and she says,

• 23:58Jocko Willink?

  "Is life always like this or does it get better when you get older?" And he looks at her and says, "Always like this."

• 24:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:07Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta be careful that that's not the message that you're sending. Now, there is some reality to that statement. Like, yeah, guess what? Life is always gonna be hard and you do wanna give your kids enough exposure to the hard things so that they're not weak.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:21Jocko Willink?

  And they don't, they don't go into panic mode when something tough enters their world. So that's why things like jiu-jitsu and working out are good and exposing them and letting them experience some hard things. But again, you just don't wanna overwhelm her and that's that. And by the way, you might as well start training jiu-jitsu too there, dad. Get mom in there too. Yeah, now you got an excuse to get down in that gym, get your jiu-jitsu on. And I know that you don't train jiu-jitsu's cuz if you did, you wouldn't be asking this question. You'd be getting, getting her training.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:55Jocko Willink?

  You making that happen.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  So you emotionally bullied, right?

• 25:01Jocko Willink?

  So this is interesting.

• 25:04Jocko Willink?

  In the new Warrior Kid book, the bully, there's a bully in there, but he's not a bully like Kenny Williamson, who's a big, strong bully. He's a bully that's an emotional bully, kinda is. And every time there seems like there's gonna be a confrontation, he finds a way to weasel out of it.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:19Jocko Willink?

  You know, so he'll harass people, but then he'll get out of there. Harass people, he knows perfectly how to push the buttons. That's what Mark's dealing with, this kid named Nathan James.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Sounds vaguely familiar.

• 25:29Jocko Willink?

  Nathan James causes problems. Yeah, there's some layers to that name for sure.

• 25:34Speaker 01

  That I, so this, this makes a lot of sense to me because I have a daughter. Four and a half, by the way, goes to pre-K. It's like preschool.

• 25:44Jocko Willink?

  Pre-K, is that the jujitsu school she goes to?

• 25:46Speaker 01

  No. No, brah. Anyway, so she-

• 25:50Jocko Willink?

  Who's the instructor?

• 25:51Speaker 01

  She told me one day, um, she said that her friends, I'm not gonna say their name, doesn't matter. She said, this friend told me that she's not my friend, she's only this other girl's friend. That's emotional, that's emotional bullying right there, right? For the four and a half year old version of it, by the way. So it gets way worse at 11, by the way, and then probably way worse at

• 26:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  15, 16. It's just my assumption. So what I told her, not to say this is the right answer, but maybe it's something to think about. So my daughter does jujitsu, has done jujitsu.

• 26:33Jocko Willink?

  Double leg choke, I like it.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Well, that's what you wanna say. Oh, you'd smash the, and she's bigger too, she's bigger than, than everyone in her path, by the way. No.

• 26:45Jocko Willink?

  Alright, so what would you, what'd you tell her?

• 26:46Speaker 01

  My daughter's trained to be a nice person, so I always have this underlying thing, no matter if someone is mean to you, that doesn't mean you be mean to them, that makes you a mean person. I said, mean people will be mean to other people, nice people tend to not be mean to other people, right? That's really real basic stuff.

• 27:02Jocko Willink?

  Fundamental, I like it.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  But, she's four.

• 27:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Um, so you just keep reminding her, so, um, so I, I told her, hey, look, if she doesn't wanna be your friend, then she's not your friend, and that's okay. Does that mean you be mean to her? No. But at the end of the day, she and I said, are you stronger than her? And she said, yeah. I said, are you smarter than her? She said, yeah. I don't know if she is or isn't. Here's the thing. It's a self empowering thing, just like how you said, where she knows jujitsu. She's smarter, she's stronger, she can do more pull ups, she can do more burpees and stuff like that. All this stuff, it starts to form in her head, hopefully, this is the goal.

• 27:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Hopefully it'll form in her head that if they don't wanna be my friend, that's okay. That's no loss to me. Maybe if someone who was strong like me, smart like me, and whatever like me didn't wanna be. Okay, maybe that's something, but this isn't the case, you know? It's kind of that idea.

• 27:56Jocko Willink?

  I think that's good advice. I think the, the, the thing of just saying, oh yeah, that's okay. Not everyone's gonna wanna be your friend. That's okay.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:03Jocko Willink?

  And some people are gonna like you and some people aren't gonna like you. That's okay. You just be nice to everyone. That's fine.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:07Jocko Willink?

  I gotta ask that question, but when we did the One Warrior Kid podcast, a bunch of people asked, oh my, I, I feel like people don't wanna hang around with me. And I was, yeah, that's okay. Yeah, that's okay. You don't need to hang around with people all the time. I don't, I don't like, even like hanging around with people. I hate to say that because I don't want to turn everyone into an anti-social person like me, but.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes it in that thing, or I think you just said it where, because my daughter always asks, you know, did people not wanna be your friend? Or um, when she'd like bump her head real hard, she'd be like, did you used to bump your head when you were little? You know, she always wants to know, like, am I alone in this whole, whole deal? And man, it seems like it really helps when I say, no, I used to do all the time. I show her like my scars and stuff like that. And she'll be like, oh, and you can tell she feels better about it.

• 28:56Jocko Willink?

  That's pretty cool.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  It's weird. I think that would help with the bullying thing.

• 29:00Jocko Willink?

  And, and it's good, your daughter's smart and so she has the capability of formulating that question. I bet a lot of kids might not be able to even say, hey, did you bump your head too? Whereas a parent, if you just recognize that they probably feel alone. And so if you say, oh, I know you bumped your head. I used to bump my head too one time. Look, I got a scar on my head. It happened to me too. So they, don't make your kids beg for a partner in the world. Give it to them.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:25Jocko Willink?

  Follow the Echo Charles model of parenting.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  And that makes sense too, now that I'm thinking of it, because like even as an adult, okay, so you got a kid and they're like, hey, did you, I don't know. Did you bump your head like this and get blood on your head or whatever when you're little? And you're like, you're like, yeah. And if you add this, and this is how I dealt with it. Right? Because a lot of times like.

• 29:44Jocko Willink?

  You give them a little path.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly right. So you, you got, you know, you got this poor little kid. They bumped their head and it's like, dang, I don't even, I've never felt this before. There's a lot of pain, there's blood. Oh, that's scary. I don't know really how to deal with it.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  So of course you go to your dad. And then your dad's like, yeah, hey, yeah, I've done it. This is how I did it. This is how I dealt with it. And she's like, okay, maybe I can deal with it. And even adult, because adults, we do that too. You know, like dang, I'm getting, I don't know, audited.

• 30:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Getting audited. The first time, whatever. Jocko, hey, you know, or you know, your friend or whatever is like, hey, I, I got audited. And this is what you can expect. This is like how you deal with it and all this stuff. Boom, you feel better about it.

• 30:23Jocko Willink?

  Indeed.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  And more empowered. And that's on top of the jujitsu. If I got audited, I would way rather know jujitsu than not, by the way.

• 30:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Check.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Next question. I've got a leadership situation I need help with. I was promoted to a troop commander position over a fellow team leader. Who now reports to me. He has many years of experience and a lot of knowledge. He's very, he's very bitter. And not getting the promotion, at not getting the promotion and is letting me know. When I include him in decision making for the troop or try to tap into his knowledge and experience. He, he shuts down, refuses to give input. And says that I should already have the answers since I'm the troop commander.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  I know the troop would benefit from his input and team dynamics would be much improved. If it wasn't so negative. I've tried to let him know that I value, I value his experience. I feel that his input would be beneficial and that his negative attitude and bearing, and bearing are not acceptable. It is making him very ineffective team leader. I'm, I'm failing at getting through to him and I don't want, I don't want to fire him for his position. How can I get him to value his own position in the troop and become effective again?

• 31:42Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I actually think you're doing the right thing and you've opened the door for him. So I think that's a good first initial approach.

• 31:50Jocko Willink?

  But obviously doesn't seem to be working. Now, a couple of different courses of actions you could take. One of the things you could do is actually give him some higher responsibility. Right? Put his team in charge, put him in charge, the whole team sometimes. Maybe he will step up and start to lead and see that. He's now able to prove and that you have a lot of trust in him and all that stuff. There's also a chance, think about this, there's also a chance that you might be coming off as condescending to him. So imagine this, hey, I go, I value your experience. Oh, no, right? You know, the troop would really benefit from your input. It's like you're treating him like it's he's a kid and he's getting that those can come off as condescending. So we have to put those a little bit in check as well. And I think those are a little bit, you know, you put to put the person in charge, you try that.

• 32:36Jocko Willink?

  You've opened up to try and get their input and get them involved, but it's it might be coming, it might be coming across as condescending. Even if it's even if you're doing, even if you're just saying, hey, man, could really use your input on this thing. It'd be great. Even if you're doing it in like a cool way, in your mind, you might be hearing, oh, I could really use your help. So even if you're saying it in a perfect way, it still might be hitting his ears in a different way. So I don't know. At this point, I think what I would do is I would maybe just back off. I would just go forward. Treating him like one of the leaders and expect him to perform as you expect your leaders to perform. I think you've made the effort. It didn't really work. And now you have a job to do and you gotta get on with it.

• 33:18Jocko Willink?

  There's also, you know, the world doesn't revolve around his pouting and his being negative. And, and you, you can't let that happen. Now, on top of that, this guy's a powder and he's a negative guy. That's probably the reason he didn't get selected to be promoted. What we talked about earlier, the boss saw that. He saw something along the way where things didn't go his way and he, and he pouted into his negative and that's why he didn't get promoted. Meanwhile, the guy that did get promoted, when things didn't go his way, he's like, okay, cool. We'll, we'll drive on with what the new plan is. And that's why you got promoted. So I would say move on.

• 33:55Jocko Willink?

  Do your job, treat him like you would treat one of your leaders. I be very careful that you don't over correct. Cause you hear me say like, okay, I'm gonna treat him normal. Now all of a sudden you're treating him like crap. Don't do that. But treat him as firmly and as fairly as you would any one of your subordinate leaders. And we have to see where it goes from there. He may end up just not being able to deal with this fact. I mean, there's, there's a reason why some people get promoted and some people don't. And maybe he's one of these people that can't humble himself. Which is one of our biggest fears in somebody that's trying to be a leader is that they can't humble themselves. And if that's what's going on, he's gonna have a long, hard road. And you know whose fault it's gonna be?

• 34:38Jocko Willink?

  Never his, never gonna be his fault. It's gonna be everyone else's fault. And, and that's, that'll be problematic.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a tough one right there. Yeah, cuz in his mind, straight up that like, you're condescending, you don't deserve it, I deserve it, you know? And now you're kind of throwing it in my face.

• 35:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's already lacking humility.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  How's this? One time in football, in, it was junior varsity football. And we're suiting up to play game, right? And my brother Jade, he was, he's really good. So he, you know, you know how you have that one guy, especially in junior varsity, you have the one guy who makes the majority of the touchdowns and all that stuff. Jade was that guy. So we're suiting up and one of our team guys on the team, he was, he was that guy right there. He was, he wasn't, the thing is, but he wasn't very, he wasn't very athletic, you, you know? Um, and they kind of played the same position. Jade was running back, he was a running back too. I think this guy was a fullback though, I don't know, I forget.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Uh, anyway, so he goes, he goes to Jade, oh, time to show off again? Yeah. Holy cow, so you imagine the mindset, it's the same, that guy probably has the same kind of mindset.

• 35:54Jocko Willink?

  Absolutely.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  So it's like, man, it's like you can't, even if you are doing the right things, like you said, like saying everything all cool, in his ears, it sounds different.

• 36:03Jocko Willink?

  In his ears, it sounds different.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Showing off again.

• 36:05Jocko Willink?

  Yep. So, so sometimes when someone isn't gonna hear your words correctly, sometimes it's best not to say it.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:13Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes just keep the mouth shut. And you ever been in an argument with someone, but you're completely trying to deescalate it? And every single thing you said is getting taken the wrong way. Be quiet, listen, nod your head and agree. You know, like you're, you're not gonna, you're not gonna convince someone. You're not gonna get through to them. They're too emotional. This guy's too negative and yeah, everything you say is gonna be heard differently and not in a positive way.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Kind of what you call the opportunity cost of addressing it is just

• 36:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  It's too much.

• 36:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Next question. I'm often given tasks on the fly, whereas many of my tasks are given as a result of meetings. These days, an increasing number are coming from emails or my manager or client asking me to do something. I find myself quite disorganized when dealing with this. I'm writing things down when I'm told, but it's all over the place. Post-its, notebook, phone, et cetera. I don't have a solid method of keeping track of these things. I'm guessing that a possible solution is to write all these things down in the same place, but I've also tried that and didn't really make a difference. I'd appreciate any input or advice you have on how to record and track objectives in a functional and a reliable manner.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  As I'm subjected to a lot of information each day, week, month. I'm definitely overloaded to remember it myself.

• 37:35Jocko Willink?

  Discipline equals freedom. So, yeah, a few things. First, first of all, definitely write the things down in one place. And it sounds like since you're moving all the time or you're going to meetings, carry just a nice little notebook with you and write the things down as you get tasked with them. Then on top of that, you have to have a master list of some kind. Either paper or digital. I'm gonna probably recommend digital to track things overall in a prioritized method. So if you get tasked something in a meeting in your little notebook, you come back, you put it in the right place in the master task list.

• 38:12Jocko Willink?

  And then like twice a day to consolidate the information that's in the little notebook you have into the big master list. And then before you go to bed at night, you organize those things by priority on the master list. You put the most important thing at the top, and that's what you're going to attack the next day. That's part one on how you get these things organized. Now, the part two is you've got to schedule this stuff. And actually, I always say this, when people have trouble with tasks, put them on the calendar. You know, actually, Jamie does that for me. When Jamie's got something for me to do, she just doesn't email me and say, hey, you need to do this. She puts it on the calendar. So I look at my

• 38:55Jocko Willink?

  calendar. Boom, there it is. I got to go do this, whatever this task is done. So put these things on your calendar. And that includes scheduling time on your calendar so that you can have time to consolidate your lists and do a review of your lists. You know, whether that takes that probably take 15 minutes to do. And I guess there's a bunch of apps you can use. And I'm sure people will make recommendations. But there's a ton of to do list apps, including there's one, there's native ones on all the different phones. So you could look at that as a possible a voice recorder. You can either use the voice recorder app you have, or you can carry around a little mini voice recorder. Then you can just take notes with that. And

• 39:38Jocko Willink?

  then you consolidate those notes from your from your voice recorder into your master task list every day. And then you just got to prioritize and execute. That's it. Pretty straightforward. Write the stuff down. Put a little I always I always put little boxes in front of everything. Yeah. Does it? Do you understand? Like, when I have a task, I put a little box in front of it. So I can check it.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. It makes, bro, you're obviously compared to me a master at that. Like, all that is like, dang, you can do all that. Bro, I'm I'm on the fly, just like this guy, this person, straight up, like, on the fly, and new stuff comes up.

• 40:17Jocko Willink?

  You'd be surprised. You'd be surprised at how much more you could get done if you actually made a list of things you're supposed to do.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  How's this? How's this? I make a list, and I still try to try to nail it down.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  I'll make a list. I even, okay, so I have a book that Jamie gave me, by the way. Uh, a book, a to do list book. And then I have

• 40:41Jocko Willink?

  She was trying to encourage good habits.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  I think so. And then I have my phone and then I have this, oh, and then I have just a regular thing on the paper. And then I do this thing where I'll open Word and have it on my side screen and I'll put the list there. For the day, it'll just be up staring me in my face. And strangely, that's has proven to be the best one because I'm do, I'm in here, I see my mistake right now that I'm telling you this. I, I put it on, on the book that Jamie gave me, right? My to do list. I put it there and then

• 41:11Jocko Willink?

  Consolidate your lists.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Um, it's on my, that book. There's one on the, on the phone, which is different now, by the way.

• 41:18Jocko Willink?

  Need a master list.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:19Jocko Willink?

  There's some apps that make, so it doesn't matter if you put it in your phone, if you put it in your computer. I mean, obviously if, if, if it's on paper, you need to transpose it into a digital format, but there's, there's things to do. Yeah. You need to consolidate a list. You have a master list of things that you're trying to do.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  And then I need to attach myself as far as the routine goes to look at that list. You know how like?

• 41:42Jocko Willink?

  That's why you schedule it, which is what I just said. That's why you put it on your schedule. Hey, every day when I sit down for lunch, I'm going to do a five minute review of my list and make sure I'm on track. That gives you the afternoon to catch up on anything you might've missed.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  And just get rid of my other list. Cause, cause half of it is me trying different methods out. Right in the middle of carrying out one other method. You know, so it's like

• 42:03Jocko Willink?

  There's a bad thing about trying different, trying to combine a bunch of different methods. What you're doing when you do that is you're looking for the easiest way. And I'll tell you the funniest, clearest example of that. When Dean first started fighting and he was going through his various stages of trying to figure out how to cut weight. And he already cut weight. He cut weight in high school as a wrestler. He knew how to cut weight. But what happened is people would come along and say, hey, there's this trick, there's that trick, and there's this trick, and there's that trick. And he would try these other, all these little tricks out. And he would try them. You know, at the same time.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing.

• 42:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and that's exactly, and guess what? You don't, when you try all these different, because what you're really doing, you're looking for the, something that sounds easy, go, yep, I'll do that. It was the, you know, for Dean, it was like, oh, I'll go in the Epsom salt bath in the hot tub. And then it was, oh, you know, and I'll drink just distilled water for X amount of days. And it's all these, which all these things are viable, right? We know that they're viable options, but there's, you have to use them in conjunction. They have to, you have to, you can't just like pull the, pull whatever little piece you want.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:15Jocko Willink?

  And think you're going to be good to go. No, you've got to do, you got to follow the system.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, take one and go with it kind of thing.

• 43:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and what you're trying to do is you're looking for things that sound the easiest. And that's what you're trying to do.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:27Jocko Willink?

  It's what we call the easy path. We don't like the easy path over here.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  But meanwhile, like, you got three different paths, all effective. Meanwhile, you're jumping from one path to the other and you're not even getting there. That's exactly what I'm doing with my to do list. I have like four to do lists.

• 43:42Jocko Willink?

  Okay, you need a to do list that says consolidate all your to do list. That's step number one.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Then I gotta remember that that's the list that I'm checking. Then I gotta remember to check it because you know how you, because you always have that to do list in your brain. You always do, you know, you're like, oh, I got that thing.

• 43:57Jocko Willink?

  By the way, the one in my brain is real solid.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  What?

• 44:01Jocko Willink?

  Like the, the to do list in my brain is really, really solid.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:05Jocko Willink?

  Like I know what I have to do.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:07Jocko Willink?

  The only, the, the things I have to write down are things that are outside.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:11Jocko Willink?

  Outside the, the, the parameters of, of daily situations. Like, let's say there's some admin thing that only comes up. Well, if it comes out super rarely, I'll remember it. But if it's an admin thing that comes up once every quarter.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I, I probably won't remember that. It's not, it's not so far outside that I'll remember and it's not in the routine. So I don't remember it. So I gotta write that thing down. That's what's on my list.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  So do you write down the list that's in your head on the, on the, on the written list?

• 44:38Jocko Willink?

  I'll write down the things that I know are.

• 44:42Jocko Willink?

  Are subject to being forgotten.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:46Jocko Willink?

  Cause the other things, I don't forget them.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you're just.

• 44:49Jocko Willink?

  I don't forget them.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Hard like confident, you're not gonna.

• 44:52Jocko Willink?

  If I have a, let's say I'm going on a trip of a kind, like if I'm going on a regular trip. If I'm going to go to a company that I work with and they're in Atlanta and I'm going to fly out there for three days. I, I don't even, I don't even have to think about that.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:05Jocko Willink?

  Everything that I do is, is the, the work I'm doing, the prep I'm doing, everything I do is just standard. It's a standard operating, because even the, even the things I'm going to bring with me.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:15Jocko Willink?

  It's the same. I went on a one day trip to Vegas the other day, like in and out. I didn't even stay the night.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:20Jocko Willink?

  And I had the same suitcase that I take when I go on a five day trip. Like it doesn't matter. I'm not changing any standard operating procedures.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:27Jocko Willink?

  I, I got there and they said, aren't you leaving today? I said, yeah. He said, why, why'd you bring a suitcase? This is how I, this is how I travel. This is the standard operating procedure for me.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:34Jocko Willink?

  I'm not deviating from it, whether I'm going for one day, for like a, a nine hour trip to Vegas or a five day trip to Atlanta. Guess what? It doesn't matter. I'm carrying the same thing. Cause that's what I do. So if it's something like that, I don't need to, don't even need things. Some things don't make my list because they're already in my head. And my list in my head is solid.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:54Jocko Willink?

  It's things that are outside the bounds of the standard operating procedures. Those are things that'll make the list.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that makes sense for this question. This kind of this question, because he's getting stuff on the fly.

• 46:02Jocko Willink?

  He's getting stuff on the fly. He's got to, he's got to.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:05Jocko Willink?

  Write this stuff down.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think, yeah, I think we're all kind of the same way in that way where you're going to have one, two, maybe three things on your mind. That no way I'm going to forget this, you know, kind of thing. But man, those lists though, you gotta, you really gotta choose one path and stick with it and then remember it. That's the thing. I think that's my problem. I know that.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  How did you deal with losses in jujitsu?

• 46:35Jocko Willink?

  Jujitsu day today.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Losses, assuming in a tournament, right? I just had my first tournament and got the floor wiped with me.

• 46:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, welcome to jujitsu. The obvious thing is you got beat good. You learned, I think we've, I think we've, I think we've gone through that one. And then really, you know, how did you get beat? What areas were you weak in? Then you analyze and, and improve in those areas. And that's jujitsu, right? Don't dwell in, in, don't dwell in your loss, but learn from it and move forward. And actually, speaking of Dave Burke, I was talking to Dave Burke and he was explaining to me his psychological current status in jujitsu. So he's, however, he's, he's basically my age. I'm 46.

• 47:29Jocko Willink?

  He might be 45 or something like that. But he's been

• 47:34Jocko Willink?

  basically a master of kind of everything he's done. You know what I mean? I mean, he's like, like factually, if you look at his life, he's been top gun, top gun instructor. He was telling me that during Operation Southern Watch, which was pre, you know, post First Gulf War, pre nine 11, he was the,

• 48:05Jocko Willink?

  he was one of the very, very, very few guys that actually dropped a live bomb. And, and you know, back in the day where no one had any experience, he was a guy that had really, really done it. And, and then he was top gun, top gun instructor, you know, you're just, and then F 35, F 22, just all that stuff that he's done. And he was, he was telling me that like, if he thinks about it, he gets a little bit bummed out because he's just starting jujitsu right now. And obviously it's in his head and he's thinking, oh, I'm never going to reach the highest level that I should or could. If I had started younger. And so he, if he, he's almost like, if he thinks about that too much,

• 48:50Jocko Willink?

  it's almost like, well, then I'm just not going to do it. You know what I mean? But, but he immediately was like, of course, I know that I'm going to do it and I'm going to be as good as I can. But.

• 49:02Jocko Willink?

  You know, that that's that's also the way life is, right?

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:07Jocko Willink?

  Just like when you, how do you deal with losing in life? You learn from your mistakes, you move on, you don't dwell. It's the same thing as jujitsu. You study your weaknesses, you figure out what you can do, you fix those problems, you move forward. You don't dwell on the past. That's it.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:21Jocko Willink?

  Got beat, good.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Actually put into perspective even more where, okay, so this is just an assumption. I know. I just had my first tournament. I'm assuming white belt, maybe blue belt.

• 49:34Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  I'm assuming.

• 49:35Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  You know, it just doesn't seem like at brown belt or something.

• 49:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're not in your first tournament. Oh, you're not in your first tournament.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, typically, but you never know, but you wouldn't have this in your mind where it'd be like, how do you deal with loss? You you won't have that in your mind as a brown belt. Like, you know, you know, it's a little bit more clear. Anyway.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  So unless you, this is like scarred you for life, I lost and I'll never compete ever again. Kind of thing.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  I think this is, this is a good way to think of it where you know how

• 50:09Speaker 01

  it's like, I don't know, your first girlfriend in like junior high or something dumped you. Like at the time, it seems like dang, I got dumped or whatever. And then when you're an adult, you're like, oh my gosh. Same thing in jujitsu. So like when you're a white belt and you lost your first, you know, as a white belt and you're, you know, I don't know. A blue belt, purple belt, brown belt, black belt, whatever. And you're thinking about your first tournament? You're like, oh, my gosh, who cares? Doesn't matter at all. And really, when you kind of put into perspective, unless you want to dedicate your life to competing, the tournaments don't really mean anything. It's just fun. And if you take the fun out of it by putting everything on that one tournament that you're currently doing, probably you won't want to do it. And you'll kind of think that that's kind of what competing is about. It's not. So if you're

• 50:54Speaker 01

  If you lose your first tournament, my first match in my first tournament, I lost. I didn't get the floor wiped with me, but that's a common thing.

• 51:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  You think back on it and not only do you, well, I think you'll always remember the first one, but um, as far as like whether you won or lost, it doesn't matter at all. Totally doesn't matter at all. And you'll find that the more you compete, the less it'll matter. And then Jiu Jitsu competition, really, unless you're like really dedicating your, your, your life to being a, you know, a good competitor.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Jiu Jitsu competitions, you're gonna win some and you're gonna learn, lose some.

• 51:29Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna win them, you're gonna learn.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you learn and you learn, oh my gosh, that doesn't work if I don't time it correctly. Or dang, that doesn't work because that's not a real submission. I only do it to smaller guys and they tap because it's uncomfortable kind of thing. But in tournament, you learn these kind of things, you know, but it's not even gonna matter. Like dealing with the loss, it's not even gonna be a factor. Because you're just gonna know that's just part of it. And really, who cares when you're kind of just starting out, you know? Like if you ask,

• 51:59Speaker 01

  like a top level black belt competitor, you know, did you win? Ask Hoiler, okay, Hoiler, right? He tells the story about him and Hoise, they went into their first competition. Their dad said, "If you win, I'll give you 10 bucks. If you lose, I'll give you 20." So it takes the pressure off, like it's not that big of a deal. You know, if you lose, boom, you know, it's all good. That's what that was for. And Hoiler lost. Hoise won, Hoiler lost. He got the 20 bucks and he's like, sure, I would have, you know, had the, Hoiler, one of the greatest legendary guys, lost his first one.

• 52:37Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:38Jocko Willink?

  Puts it in perspective, huh?

• 52:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it doesn't matter at all.

• 52:41Jocko Willink?

  He got 20 dollars.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  You know, he's gonna get the 20 bucks, but just saying. It, um, yeah, it doesn't ma- it won't matter. And you're gonna think, same thing like high school, like the stuff that happens in high school. When it happens, it seems like it's a big deal, but then when you're an adult, you're like, uh.

• 52:56Jocko Willink?

  It even happens as an adult.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Cool, it's a cool memory, but you know, could have been better.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  Anyway, next question. Hello, Mr. Willink. I'm currently deployed to Iraq as an E6 in the Army. I have listened to your podcast and really enjoy your stuff, especially discipline equals freedom. I know as a sergeant and as a leader, your focus isn't to be liked. However, your soldiers should respect you, respect both you and your rank. My question is, how do you tell your soldiers to do the small stuff, tedious stuff? Like taking out the trash and still be liked?

• 53:34Jocko Willink?

  All right, well, first of all, if we want to get respect from people, we have to give them respect for sure. Think about this, think if you took out the trash sometime. You know, think if you're the, you're the boss, but you see that the trash is getting overfilled and you just grab it and take it out. Just think about what that does. Think about what that does to the attitude of the guys. If you took out the trash, you, you, maybe in your mind, you think you'd be losing respect. But you actually wouldn't be at all. Yeah. In fact, everyone looks at you and goes, oh, he's a good guy. He's taking out the trash. It was a little full and he's taking care of it. So maybe if you're insecure, you'd think you'd lose respect, but I think if you're secure in your ability to lead

• 54:17Jocko Willink?

  and if you know that doing some tedious stuff is going to make you guys appreciate you, then to me, that means it's kind of worth it.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully.

• 54:27Jocko Willink?

  Right? Um, another example, you know, we talk about taking out the trash, but like, what if the platoon space has to be cleaned? And on Friday, you, you, you just say, hey, guys, you guys can go ahead and roll out. I got this. Right? There's a chance they're like, hey, boss, we're not leaving.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:47Jocko Willink?

  We're, we're, no, we'll, we'll help you. There, there's, of course, there's a chance they'd be like, oh, that's awesome. Thanks, boss. And they bail. Over time, that might be if, if they don't respect you at all, they might bail. Now, in order to regain the respect, do you make them stay and boss them around more? Does that increase the respect for you? You see, see how interesting it is? Instead, if you go, hey, guys, that's cool. I'll do it. And you're working hard and you still got to maintain the discipline and you don't take any slack. But at the, you, it's the same balance, the balance we talk about all the time. So.

• 55:30Jocko Willink?

  The more that you treat them with respect, the more they're going to respect you and they're going to know that you're not, you know, too high and mighty. They're going to know that you're down to earth. When I was a platoon commander, task unit commander, I picked up brass. I cleaned the ranges with the boys. That's just the way I operated. And I would recommend that kind of attitude. It didn't make people think, oh, Jocko's doesn't have anything better to do. They actually knew I had stuff to do. But what I gotta do, pick up brass with the boys.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:03Jocko Willink?

  Build the relationships, set the example. They're going to respect you for it.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense. At the end of the day, do you have something better to do, right? Cause the whole, in the big picture, it's like how you say like, that's a leader.

• 56:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's like, sometimes you literally have something.

• 56:20Jocko Willink?

  No, no, like sometimes you literally, like, hey, the boys are picking up brass and guess what? You got a meeting with the commanding officer, you gotta go do, you know, there's sometimes where you actually do. And what's cool is tactically is, and you heard us saying this at the FTX, we were up in Utah. If you see the leader doing something menial, what you should do as a, as a follower is step up and say, hey, Echo, I got this. You can go and lead. That's what, that's what you want. That's what I want to do for my leader. I want to take things off my leader's plate as much as possible.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:53Jocko Willink?

  Now, the more you try and, you, you just have to build those relationships. The way you build those, if you don't have anything better to do, then you get down there and you help, you help clean up the range. You help pick up the brass.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:07Jocko Willink?

  That's the way it is.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  I actually did notice that about you and Leif too, um, where, you know, like I'll have my camera equipment and, you know, lights or whatever. And it's not a bunch of stuff, but you know. You're always like, oh, you'll like grab something.

• 57:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  And.

• 57:22Jocko Willink?

  You don't like when I grab your camera.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't touch, don't, don't touch it, don't touch it. But and when it's just me and you, it's kind of like cool because we're just kind of friends or whatever. There's no perceived or no like hierarchy kind of thing like you're, you know, but let's say like at the muster or whatever, it's like you guys have a specific job. I have a specific job, you know, kind of thing. And meanwhile, you and and Leif will like if if I'm around, I'm carrying something. You'll always like grab something or or say, hey, you need, you know. You left at the Utah thing. It's like, oh, are you good? I'm like, bro, you're the instructor here kind of thing. That's what I'm thinking in my head. And um, and yeah, you guys always offer to like help.

• 58:03Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Interesting. I'm like almost offended like, bro, like, do I look like I need help? Because you shouldn't really be asking me for help. Whatever, bro. Very capable individual.

• 58:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and the small tedious stuff. The other thing is you explain to them why it's important, right? About the answer we give all the time. Why is it important? Why is it important that the platoon huts clean? Well, because I want you guys to have time off over the weekends and not be stuck here cleaning because the commanding officer came in and saw that this place looked like a hellhole. Okay, well, that makes sense to us. We understand why you want us to clean now. You you want us to clean so that we can have time off. You want us to clean, so you want us to train hard? You want us to do this because because we want to be ready for combat? Because I want you guys to be able to come home to your families. Make sure they understand why they're doing what they're doing. And if there's no reason why to, if if if the reason, I mean, even cleaning, even taking out the trash, there's a reason for that, right?

• 58:58Jocko Willink?

  There's an actual reason for that. We can't just have junk everywhere. So explain why. Participate when you can. Build the relationships with your troops. You'll be good.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that that works.

• 59:14Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, thanks for your service, brother. I hope you're having a good time over in Iraq getting after it.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, second that for sure. That works for kids, big time. Explaining why you do it, and if you really wanna dial in the effectiveness is make that reason somehow, tie it to their interests, their direct interests, cuz sometimes kids can't see the big picture, you know? Like if I say, "You gotta clean your room." And, you know, "Otherwise, your room be messy," and then maybe, you know,

• 59:49Speaker 01

  later in life, you might be comfortable with a messy room, might get in the way of your effectiveness. Little four or five-year-olds, they're not gonna understand that, and they're gonna be like, "Cool, that sounds like terrible," but they won't feel it, you know? But if you tie it into their, like, direct interests as a four or five-year-old, or however old the kid is, it works really good.

• 1:00:09Jocko Willink?

  What if you don't clean your room, and there's a fire, and I come in here to get you, but I trip and fall down, and then you die?

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  That's one way, yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 1:00:20Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know if I'd say that, but it's cool.

• 1:00:24Jocko Willink?

  Good time for one more here?

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  Jocko, in war, the enemy is clear, but in life, in business,

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  not so easy to identify. Any tips?

• 1:00:42Jocko Willink?

  Well,

• 1:00:45Jocko Willink?

  I mean, first of all, that is not a true statement.

• 1:00:50Jocko Willink?

  And in, in war, the enemy is not always clear, not at all. The enemy, the enemy can be hard to identify. Very hard to identify. The enemy is gonna use camouflage to conceal themselves. They're gonna use deception to, to distract your attention. They're gonna blend in with the friendly civilian populace, and they're gonna take advantage of your benevolence. Right? In fact, the enemy is going to do absolutely everything in its power

• 1:01:24Jocko Willink?

  to obscure their position, to hide their purpose, to even mask their identity. So,

• 1:01:34Jocko Willink?

  it is not easy to identify the enemy

• 1:01:38Jocko Willink?

  in combat, in war. So what you have to do is you have to control what you can control. Right? You gotta be prepared, you've gotta train, you've gotta study, you've gotta rehearse, you've gotta remain vigilant.

• 1:01:52Jocko Willink?

  You've got to maintain discipline in everything you do so that when the enemy does reveal itself, you have the ability to outthink it, to outmaneuver, to outfight the enemy. And it's actually the same thing in business, right? The enemy can be hard to identify. Your competitors aren't broadcasting their next move. You don't know what the market's gonna do. You can't be certain about the next trend or the next downturn or the next bubble that's gonna burst. You can't know those things. So you have to do the same thing.

• 1:02:32Jocko Willink?

  You have to control what you can control, which is you. You gotta gather intelligence. You gotta analyze the metrics that you can track. You gotta train yourself and your team to be prepared for both the known and also be prepared for the unknown. Figure out what the likely contingencies are and have some plans to execute if those contingencies occur. Maintain discipline as an organization so that you have the flexibility and the responsiveness to maneuver effectively and efficiently when the unpredictable actually happens.

• 1:03:15Jocko Willink?

  So instead of suffering and falling apart in the chaos, you can take advantage of it and win.

• 1:03:26Jocko Willink?

  And that's business and life is the same. The enemy is not always clear in life. It can be hard to tell who's gonna try and bring you down.

• 1:03:39Jocko Willink?

  Or what is going to bring you down. There's distractions. There are things out there that will do you harm that are so camouflaged, you can't see them at all. There are deceitful people. There are accidents that can occur and diseases that take root. And there's bad luck and there's Murphy's Law and there's times when it seems that the whole world is against you. The whole world is the enemy.

• 1:04:19Jocko Willink?

  And the same rules apply.

• 1:04:23Jocko Willink?

  Control what you can control you. Train hard, learn, maintain the unmitigated daily discipline in all things.

• 1:04:38Jocko Willink?

  Train hard physically and mentally. Push yourself so hard that you become accustomed to the stress. You get used to it.

• 1:04:51Jocko Willink?

  Every day, make yourself stronger and faster and smarter and better. So that when the enemy does finally climb out of the shadows and expose himself to you, you are ready.

• 1:05:09Jocko Willink?

  You are waiting.

• 1:05:13Jocko Willink?

  And you can relish in the opportunity to attack and fight and utterly decimate and destroy him.

• 1:05:29Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for tonight. So Echo, maybe you could

• 1:05:42Jocko Willink?

  help us figure out how we can support ourselves and perhaps be better prepared for the enemy.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:53Jocko Willink?

  Of whichever kind and whenever it exposes itself so that we can smash it. And if you want to do that, you could also do that while simultaneously supporting this podcast.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  They want to, of course.

• 1:06:09Jocko Willink?

  Or we could just have a bunch of advertisers on here. Listen to us talk about stuff that.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah. Yeah, either way, hey, that's what I'm here to do. One of the things I was talking to, uh, actually that's, that's true that where you know how?

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  You know, you say that a lot and it's easy, especially me.

• 1:06:30Jocko Willink?

  What do I say a lot?

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Like be ready, you know?

• 1:06:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  You know, I'm, you know?

• 1:06:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, prepare, be stronger, faster, smarter.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  And you don't like a lot of things after a while. You hear it like enough, a lot of times, a lot of times, a lot of times. Sometimes it clicks, but then every once in a while you'll, it'll like.

• 1:06:48Jocko Willink?

  Leave a mark.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  No, no, no, the opposite. Sorry. The, the opposite, like, um, okay, you know?

• 1:06:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  I get it. I get it. I get it. I get it. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Next kind of thing.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  And these things like when you really think about that one, like we, there's this saying, I don't know. I'm sure it's not new when I heard it was like chance favors the prepared man. Is that the correct?

• 1:07:08Jocko Willink?

  Fortune favors the brave.

• 1:07:13Jocko Willink?

  Wait, wait, what are you looking for?

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  That, that quote.

• 1:07:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  It's like basically something chance favorite, though the one that I heard was chance favors the prepared man.

• 1:07:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  So it's all, it's all the same thing.

• 1:07:22Jocko Willink?

  There's some variations of that one. I went straight to the fortune favors the bold or brave.

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, the prepared, right? So if you're prepared.

• 1:07:30Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  You know, you're gonna seem to have more luck, you know, with victory and all this other stuff, right? So it's like, you know, in any circumstance, like if you take working out, working out is like the easy one because like if you're in shape or you're, if you're strong or if you're not weak or if you're not incapable, you know, like you don't work out, so your back's out or something like that or. Compare it with being strong. Being strong is always more beneficial in pretty much every single situation there is than being weak. Yes.

• 1:08:00Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  Or being in shape or, or, you know, being healthy.

• 1:08:03Jocko Willink?

  Being smarter.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  Being smarter. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:08Jocko Willink?

  You hesitate a bit. It's always good to be strong, but occasionally it's good to be dumber.

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  No, I'm not saying, it's not one of the, it's, it's one of those things where, where, where the result of working out and being strong is always going to add a tangible benefit to most of this, pretty much everything you do in life.

• 1:08:23Jocko Willink?

  And you don't believe that about being smarter.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  I'm not saying that. I'm not just gonna jump into, yes, that's true too, because I didn't think about it.

• 1:08:30Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  About this.

• 1:08:31Jocko Willink?

  Well, this is a smart move of yours.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  See, there you go.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, but I think that's one of those things where. We kinda, it's my opinion that what you just said there is should be taken to heart. Hundred percent.

• 1:08:47Jocko Willink?

  Concur.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Not just some cool thing like, let's face it, that sounded good. That sounded cool.

• 1:08:53Jocko Willink?

  But I'm over here, I don't, I'm, I don't listen to it because I'm saying.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I thought it sounded dope.

• 1:08:58Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  But it's, it's absolutely true. And you know, and there's little micro struggles, you know, in life. Let's face it.

• 1:09:07Jocko Willink?

  I know you have some micros.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  There was a lot of micro struggles. All my struggles are micro. Seemingly, but guess what? No problem, you know?

• 1:09:17Jocko Willink?

  No factor.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  No factor. I was filling up jugs and I use this example before, I'm gonna do it again. You know why? Because it's it, every time I fill up jugs, I think about this.

• 1:09:28Jocko Willink?

  The struggle is real.

• 1:09:28Speaker 01

  Water, jugs. They're like, what, forty pounds, right? I think like.

• 1:09:32Jocko Willink?

  Uh, seven pounds? How many gallons are they?

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  Eight pounds per gallon, right?

• 1:09:35Jocko Willink?

  Seven.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  Seven? Okay. So they're five gallons each.

• 1:09:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  So. That's, you know, but no problem, you know?

• 1:09:43Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  I can do it. No, I don't need a cart to carry them, you know, kind of thing.

• 1:09:47Jocko Willink?

  How many do you carry? Just one in each arm?

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, one in each hand. Let's see what it is, see what I'm saying? They'll see how you're like, that's nothing, right? That's nothing. But for a lot of people who don't work out or nothing like that, that's not nothing. It's something.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, uh, I'm just saying, like, if you're prepared.

• 1:10:05Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so tell us how we can prepare better.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. So first thing you do is maintain.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Maintain your, your, what do you call it? Your, your, your structure.

• 1:10:18Jocko Willink?

  Foundational structure.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  Foundational structure. Make sure you're not breaking down, starting with your joints. As always said, Chaco has some supplements. Krill oil and glucosamine and chondritin supplements. Chaco super krill, krill oil.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  And what's called joint warfare, Jocko joint warfare. That's glucose, I mean, can join and some other good stuff for your joints.

• 1:10:44Jocko Willink?

  It's funny, the other stuff is actually really beneficial. So go to originmaine.com and read so that you can realize the benefits that you're getting. Because it's good for you.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'll go beyond just good for you. It's the kind where, and I'm saying this firsthand, firsthand account, my account. Before you take this, you you're gonna have joint pain and even non factor joint pain. I was talking to Dave Burke the other day.

• 1:11:15Jocko Willink?

  Dave Burke's popular today.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. So Dave Burke asked me about krill oil, just in general. He's like, well, I don't have joint pain, like most of the workouts and hard workouts I do. See, and that's the thing. So I was like, I was kind of like that too, where I didn't know. And I don't want to be the guy who's like, no, you do have this problem. And they're like, bro, I don't have this problem. No, no, you do, and you need this product. You know, I don't, I'm not, I didn't want to be that guy. I didn't want to come off like that guy. So I'm like, yeah.

• 1:11:44Jocko Willink?

  You'll save coming off like that for the podcast.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  No, he made a good point.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  If you don't have like joint pain or whatever, um, then yeah, you won't have the exact experience. I did because I did have joint pain and I had joint pain in places that I didn't kind of realize it. You just feel like, oh, don't dang, I'm like.

• 1:12:06Jocko Willink?

  You think that's just normal, that's your baseline.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  You get used to the pain on top of the fact that I had pain that I didn't, that I knew wasn't normal. You know, just more stiff now that I'm getting older, whatever. But nonetheless, I was like.

• 1:12:17Jocko Willink?

  You're looking old.

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  I think, bro, how do I look? You know, it's my birthday in two days, by the way. Boom, anyway.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  Sure, you could not have joint pain, but the even before I had like any kind of pain from working out or whatever from joint or in my joints or whatever. I should have started taking it before that. I should have, and I'm not saying people will take it or I'm not saying that necessarily. Um, so Dave's question to me was, should I start taking it? I said, yes.

• 1:12:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:12:53Jocko Willink?

  It's good advice.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  But I did have to let him know if you legitimately are not having joint pain, don't think that it's going to be a miracle thing like it felt like for me.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  That's the point. Nonetheless, it's the best stuff cuz it's from Jocko, right?

• 1:13:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, it's the best stuff cuz it's the best stuff. It happens to be.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  Happens to be. Anyway, go to originmaine.com for this super krill oil and Jocko joint warfare. On the top says labs. I always see that. It's on the front too. So it's real obvious. Just go there. Originmaine.com. There's also some gees. If you're still wondering about what gi to get, don't wonder anymore. Straight up.

• 1:13:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:13:36Jocko Willink?

  There's actually, there's actually no comparison, to be quite honest with you. There's no comparison. Every other gi is not made here in America.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:46Jocko Willink?

  With American hands, American material.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:51Jocko Willink?

  So there's no compare. You can't compare. You literally can't compare. There's no comparison.

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and I, I don't wanna turn this into like, you know, putting down any other gi company. So I'm not necessarily gonna do that, but

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  let's face it, in certain manufacturing

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  industries, I guess, brands, a lot of brands, they go, they all go to the same supplier in Pakistan or wherever.

• 1:14:24Jocko Willink?

  All of the things come from the same place. And that's why I said there's actually no comparison. And it's not just no comparison cuz it's made in America. It's no comparison because it's been designed from the ground up by people that do jujitsu.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:14:39Jocko Willink?

  By people that do jujitsu on the daily at Origin Factory. Then you know what the next building is? The Origin Training Facility. So it's like, it's like, we're gonna put on our gees and train, and then we're gonna make sure that it's squared away.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:53Jocko Willink?

  From the materi- By the way, it's not like, oh, well, we want it to look like this, and we'll just have to use some random material. No, we'll design the material. Design the weave of the material.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  Yes, and.

• 1:15:06Jocko Willink?

  So that it's optimum for jujitsu, and that's what we'll make and sell. So there's no comparison.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he was like

• 1:15:13Jocko Willink?

  There's no one else doing anything close to that.

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:15Jocko Willink?

  The closest would be, hey, we're, we're making it look, we're putting a color to it or putting a patch somewhere. Or, you know, that's the closest you could do to saying we're doing something like this.

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:27Jocko Willink?

  No one is designing from the ground up.

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:30Jocko Willink?

  From the material up, from the threads themselves.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, the typical scenario.

• 1:15:35Jocko Willink?

  By the way, it's not just the geese, the rash guards, same thing.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:39Jocko Willink?

  The material created by Origin.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, the typical scenarios you get, you know, hey, I'm gonna, you'd be surprised, man. Even these like kind of established gi brands like, um, doesn't matter which ones, whatever, but they'll be like, hey, yeah, let's do, you know, let's make this gi, oh, by the way, let's get the same blanks that we've always been getting and that everyone else. And let's just put a cool stitch on there or something or patch or, or design. That's just the way it typically works, not even necessarily that there's anything wrong with it, because if you like your gi, you like your gi, that's good. That's how I am, but yeah, the origin, once you kind of put it on, I will argue that you're, you're gonna kind of understand. My opinion, nonetheless, origin main.com, that's the, that's the good one.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  Also, for legit fitness gear, go to on it.com slash Jocko, good kettlebells on there. They got some Star Wars kettlebells.

• 1:16:41Jocko Willink?

  That's cool.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, see, that's the thing, man, you don't really care that much about these, these cool kettlebells.

• 1:16:46Jocko Willink?

  I'm trying to be nice about it.

• 1:16:47Speaker 01

  I do, I think they're dope, nonetheless, um, yeah, kettlebells on there. I got into kettlebells a while ago, very glad I'd wish I had done it earlier.

• 1:16:58Jocko Willink?

  Did I get you into kettlebells?

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:01Jocko Willink?

  I got you into krill oil and kettlebells.

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:03Jocko Willink?

  Give it up.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  But both, yeah, both not necessar- not actively.

• 1:17:08Jocko Willink?

  And I got you into Metcons too.

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  Metcons.

• 1:17:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you used to not do Metcons, I remember you sent me a text sometime, like, it was like, what's the deal with this, this metabolic conditioning? You said, what should I do? And I was like, said, and now all of a sudden you started doing Metcons and your cardio on the mat got a lot better.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, quick too, by the way.

• 1:17:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  Metcons, Metcons with kettlebells and krill oil, ooh, that's the combo right there.

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  Anyway, and there's a lot of cool other exercise stuff on there like create, kind of create more creative stuff. You know, keep your workouts interesting.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  That is on it.com slash Jocko. Check out some stuff on there. They got some really good stuff, really good stuff. Audrey's smart with that, where he's always like pushing like the good stuff, you know. Anyway, also Jocko has a store. It's called Jocko's store, Jocko's store.com. It has, if you want to get these shirts that we make, that we happen to make, they're good shirts too. They're not like free shirts. You know, the free ones that you like, cool, and you never wear it. It's not that kind, very wearable. I made it a point to make them like good. You know, some women's stuff on there, rash guards, patches, hoodies. I know it's getting colder now. Places, they're thicker hoodies.

• 1:18:27Jocko Willink?

  Is it cold in Kauai right now?

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  It is. Actually, it is. It's like 60.

• 1:18:33Jocko Willink?

  There's snow on the top of Kauai, right?

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  No, not quite. That's a big island.

• 1:18:36Jocko Willink?

  That's a big island.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:37Jocko Willink?

  Dang it.

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  Mauna Kea.

• 1:18:38Jocko Willink?

  I just revealed my

• 1:18:41Speaker 01

  Not everyone knows.

• 1:18:42Jocko Willink?

  Non Hawaiian.

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  That's all right, Brett. You're coming to me. I'm a man. I might have to suspend your mai ka'i card for a little while though after that one. Anyway, we got some hoodies for people who are in places other than Hawaii. Or if you're on Mauna Kea. Thicker hoodies, all this stuff. Anyway, I'm not saying buy stuff. I'm saying go on there, check it out. If you like something, get something. It's a good way to support. Also, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already on iTunes and Stitcher and Google Play. However, you listen to the podcast, you subscribe. Seems obvious, I know, but if you haven't subscribed, good way to support. Also on YouTube, we have a YouTube channel.

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  There's various reasons to subscribe to YouTube, but the main one, I think, main two is if you like the video version of this podcast. And you like little excerpts, whether we put some music behind them. When I say we, I mean me. Put some music behind them and some various effects.

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  Or not, there's excerpts, you know, a little shorter than the whole version of the podcast and you can share them, listen to them or whatever. Lot quicker. Anyway, subscribe to YouTube is what I'm saying, if you want. And if you do want to, and you do, it's a good way to support. Also, Psychological Warfare, if you don't know what that is, it's an album on iTunes that you can get with tracks.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  That on your campaign against weakness, on the path, trying to get in better shape, you're trying to get in shape. You want to maintain your shape. You want to, what, wake up earlier?

• 1:20:22Jocko Willink?

  I think you covered it, dude.

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no. These are, I'm saying, you know, but here's the thing, psychological, it, cause, okay. So it seems obvious, right? You're trying to get in shape. You're gonna have hard days, you know, days where you're like, I'm gonna skip the workout, right?

• 1:20:37Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  It seems obvious. That's an element of life on the path that's, it seems obvious you'll run into like points of weakness. It's obvious. And I dig it. And there's a track for that. Jocko tells you why you shouldn't do that. You just listen to it. Boom, get right back on track. But I don't always, what I don't always talk about is that there's tracks for other things, like the creativity thing. Like if you got like a procrastination situation, how's that one?

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  The reason you're looking at me like this is because you already know this, but not everybody knows this.

• 1:21:11Jocko Willink?

  You're procrastinating me finishing this podcast.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  No, no, no. We are finishing this podcast strong with boatloads of value. Because I'm letting people know. I'm letting people know. This is what it is.

• 1:21:24Jocko Willink?

  Why don't you just say Psychological Warfare, it's an album with tracks on iTunes, MP3, Google Play, Amazon Music. If you're gonna run into some issues, it'll help you out getting through those issues. Next topic.

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess I could have said it like that.

• 1:21:43Speaker 01

  That's more of like the Jocko way to say it, you know, like I don't, I feel like if I come from a place of, you know, authentic relation to the struggle. I feel like it'll, it'll, it'll pass the message in a more accurate way. I think.

• 1:22:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  You don't skip workouts.

• 1:22:06Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  You, do you, okay, here's this, how's this? Do you ever sit in your gym? Sit on the bench or whatever, where the bike can be like, man, if I, and make deals with yourself, hey, if I skip today,

• 1:22:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  I'll just do it double tomorrow.

• 1:22:24Jocko Willink?

  I'll tell you what I'll do is like if I'm doing something that's gonna suck, like squats. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll procrastinate. I'm in the gym, like it's gonna happen.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:22:36Jocko Willink?

  But I'll like, okay, let me just stretch out my back, you know, you know, but it's, it's one of those things like the outcome is known.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:44Jocko Willink?

  The outcome is not in question.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:22:46Jocko Willink?

  The workout will happen.

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:22:48Jocko Willink?

  I'm just being a complete baby about it.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:22:52Jocko Willink?

  So then I just have to suck it up.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. So see, that's why you're looking at me like that. Because me and a lot of people like me, we're not like that. We're trying to be like that. We wanna be like that. I know I do. I wanna be like skipping the workout is straight up a non, not an option ever.

• 1:23:11Jocko Willink?

  Skipping workouts is total lie.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  I wanna be like that.

• 1:23:13Jocko Willink?

  You won't let it happen.

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  But there are times and have been times where I'm sitting there, got like, there's been times I drove to the gym before I got my own gym. Drove to the gym, sat in there. It was like, you know what? If I, look, if I just walk right out of here right now, I skip this workout. I need recovery. I need, I'm not gonna get a good workout anyway. Oh, you know what? I'll, I'll just come back in on Saturday. That was my active rest. I'll come back in and I'll get it then. Today will be my rest day, right? I'm like that. Some other people are like that. You're not like that. That's why you don't understand.

• 1:23:45Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm doing right now? With some shuffling my papers?

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  Being passive aggressive, I know, which is very unlike you, but you know, hey, man, it's all good. Nonetheless, psychological warfare. I'm trying to make, make this a point. This is a for real point. Valuable point is a track that Jocko Even though he tried to talk me out of explaining this to you right now, he will talk you out to, out of, effectively, talk you out of skipping the workout, talk you out of pressing the snooze, or whatever, all these little points of weakness going there. If you look at them, you'll see all the little points of weakness that these tracks address. It's good, very effective.

• 1:24:26Jocko Willink?

  Cool. Are we done with that section?

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  Very good way to support the podcast.

• 1:24:31Jocko Willink?

  All right, Jocko White Tea, you can get that on Amazon. It will guaranteed 100% double-blind placebo-tested.

• 1:24:40Speaker 01

  Triple-blind.

• 1:24:40Jocko Willink?

  Triple-blind. You can deadlift 8,000 pounds, so you might want to pick that up on Amazon. You can read the, if you don't believe me, that's fine, go read the, go read the reviews on Amazon, where every verified purchase is like, they're deadlifting minimum 8,000 pounds. Books, got some books, weigh the warrior kid, if you have a kid or you know a kid, then help a kid.

• 1:25:03Jocko Willink?

  Help them be a better person, have a better life.

• 1:25:08Jocko Willink?

  Get them the way of the warrior kid, Extreme Ownership, the new edition is out, and you all helped write it because it has questions from this podcast. Also, the new foreword, also the color pictures, lame, didn't want them.

• 1:25:24Jocko Willink?

  But made up for that by just making the cover black, because black. And that book has all the fundamental principles of combat leadership. It's for you and your team, you don't need to hide it. Remember in the beginning, people would want it, they'd get it, and they'd want to keep it for themselves. Because they want to hide the knowledge, because they want to look, they want, don't do that, it doesn't help. The more people know it, the more people are on board, the better it's going to work. Also, from an individual perspective, to get yourself on the path, there's a book called Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, it's available everywhere.

• 1:26:00Jocko Willink?

  And you might be wondering if it'd make a good gift.

• 1:26:06Jocko Willink?

  Well, not only is it heavy, have you noticed how heavy it is? It's a heavy book. It's a big book. It's a substantial book. It's completely unique. Because it has black pages and the outside of the pages are also black.

• 1:26:23Speaker 01

  It's a work of art, for sure.

• 1:26:25Jocko Willink?

  So, get some copies for the people that you know, because beyond looking really cool,

• 1:26:35Jocko Willink?

  there is no better gift than discipline. So get some copies and also if you want the audio version. See now, look, I'm doing the same thing you just did. But let's watch how long this takes. If you want the audio version of Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, you can get it on iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play and other MP3 platforms, period, right there. Now everyone knows what you took 15 minutes to explain. If you're in further need of more fire support in terms of basic leadership,

• 1:27:11Jocko Willink?

  besides the podcast, beside the books, and you want to have more interaction, take it to the next level. We have a leadership consulting company. It's me, it's Leif Babin, it's JP Donnell, it's Dave Burke. You can email [email protected]. And if you have questions for us, or you have answers, or you have directions,

• 1:27:35Jocko Willink?

  or you want to share something,

• 1:27:38Jocko Willink?

  you can hit us up on the interwebs, Twitter, Instagram, and

• 1:27:49Jocko Willink?

  Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And thanks to those people out there that give us the freedom and protection to make this podcast possible, our service men and women in uniform, protecting us from the enemy and fighting the good fight. Thank you and to the police and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and the rest of the first responders out there. Thank you for answering the call when we call.

• 1:28:19Jocko Willink?

  And to everyone out there, there's an enemy. And whether that is a literal enemy like our military personnel face, or a metaphorical enemy like people face every day. Don't fear the enemy.

• 1:28:37Jocko Willink?

  Respect the enemy. And out of your respect for the enemy, prepare.

• 1:28:46Jocko Willink?

  Prepare and train and learn and stay vigilant and stay disciplined. So when the enemy comes, you are ready to get after it.

• 1:29:01Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko out.