Pod Insights Gone Medieval The Women Who Ruled Medieval Burgundy, and Europe About this episode What if the most powerful warlords in medieval Europe were women?
From wine country to empire, Burgundy’s Duchesses brokered marriages, bullied rivals, made kings and emperors, and ruled vast lands in their own right. Dr Eleanor Janega is joined by Susan Abernethy to uncover the formidable women behind one of Europe’s wealthiest, most sophisticated courts.
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Gone Medieval is presented by Dr. Eleanor Janega. Audio editor is Tim Arstall, the producer is Rob Weinberg. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.
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0:01 Matt Lewis? From long-lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places, to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr Eleanor Janiger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life, only on History Hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand-new release every week, exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.
0:42 Eleanor Janega? Hello, I'm Dr Eleanor Janiger, and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gob-smacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research, from the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes, to the Crusades. We delve into the rebellions, plots, and murders that tell us who we really were, and how we got here.
1:18 Eleanor Janega? If I say the word Burgundy to you, it's likely that the first thing that comes to mind is wine. That's fine, you should probably keep thinking that. However, for medieval historians, Burgundy is more than just a great glass of red. It was one of the most powerful duchies in the Middle Ages, and by the late medieval period, it managed to transform itself into what many would argue was an actual empire. The Burgundian throne was populated by the House of Valois, who you may remember as the cadet branch of the Capetian dynasty, and the rulers of France as well. Indeed, many of the rulers of Burgundy are big names, who we've discussed on Gone Medieval in the past.
2:03 Eleanor Janega? This includes people like Duke Philip the Bold, or John the Fearless. They enjoyed life in one of the wealthiest and most sophisticated courts in Europe. Patronizing artists and musicians, writers and bookmakers. But behind the big names and the flashy court, there was an even more impressive Burgundian legacy. It's women. Today on Gone Medieval from History Hit, I'm joined by Susan Abernethy, historian and author of The Formidable Women of Burgundy, to talk about the remarkable legacy of the Duchesses de Burgon. We will consider the power and prestige of these women, who not only made kings and emperors, but waged war, made connections,
2:48 Eleanor Janega? and ruled huge swathes of land in their own right and name. Susan, welcome to Gone Medieval.
2:55 Speaker 03 Hi, Eleanor. Thanks for having me.
2:57 Eleanor Janega? I am so excited to have you today because I loved your book. And also, I love the women that we are about to talk about today. And indeed, from a really nerdy standpoint, which is the only standpoint that I have, I am really interested in this political polity. So I'm going to start us off with a question that I think is going to need answering for a lot of people. When we say Burgundy in the late Middle Ages, what are we actually talking about here?
3:27 Speaker 03 Well, historians have argued over what to call this. Like, is it an empire or is it a state? Because it's just such an amalgamation of different territories. But I prefer empire because I love these Valois dukes and I think that they're fantastic and they did an amazing job. All these territories were carved out by these dukes. And it was comprised of the Low Countries, parts of northern France, and parts of the Holy Roman Empire. And Philip the Bold started out with Flanders, Rethel, Nevers, among others. And through purchase, inheritance, marriages, outright war,
4:12 Speaker 03 he added so many other entities to his empire. And by the time of his grandson, Philip the Good, the largest acquisition that would be made would be Luxembourg. And he gained this by bullying the Duchess Elizabeth of Gorlets.
4:30 Speaker 03 That's how he gained Luxembourg.
4:32 Eleanor Janega? Well, I agree with you completely because, you know, for me, I think an empire is when you have people of varying cultures and languages that are amalgamated underneath one particular ruler. And so I do think that Burgundy kind of counts, right? And of course, I'm going to say that because I'm a Holy Roman Imperial historian. So, you know, if that's how we're defining empire, that's how we're defining empire. The Angevins have an empire. The Burgundians have an empire, right? And so I think that it's really difficult for people to understand how powerful this
5:11 Eleanor Janega? particular part of the world is, especially in the 15th century. Can you talk about what makes this particular amalgamation tick?
5:22 Speaker 03 Sure. Burgundy was an economic and a cultural powerhouse. This area, especially the Low Countries, kind of served as the breadbasket to Europe with their grain exports. The Low Countries were known for their weaving and their wool and linen. So they produced a lot of materials, tapestries and clothing. The Valois dukes were really good at centralizing their government. They kind of brought all of these different territories together and collected a lot of wealth by doing that. And they used this wealth to put on a good show at their court. So the Burgundian court was known for its extravagance.
6:05 Eleanor Janega? This is one of my favorite things. I'm really drawn to a good court life. I can't help it. I'm such a sucker for it, right? If Eleanor of Aquitaine is doing it, I'm there. When the Burgundians are doing it, I'm there. And I suppose it's because for me, you know, if I was a rich person in the Middle Ages, this is how I would expend my cultural capital.
6:26 Eleanor Janega? And indeed, these people have it, right? It's, I think, hard for us to kind of get ourselves in the headspace of medieval people. And, you know, understanding that wool and cloth is incredibly important. But, you know, if you don't have central keating, you're going to be really interested in wearing wool all the time.
6:44 Speaker 03 Uh huh.
6:44 Eleanor Janega? I think it's one of those things. So, you know, this is what makes, you know, charente. This is what makes bruges. This is, places like that are, are built because of the cloth industry. And that money is going straight into the coffers of the Valois family.
6:58 Speaker 03 Exactly.
6:59 Eleanor Janega? Essentially.
7:00 Speaker 03 I'm thinking of, there's a picture from one of the medieval manuscripts of Philip the Good inducting his son, Charles the Bold, into the Order of the Golden Fleece. And that, to me, is just like, that's what the Burgundian court was like.
7:15 Eleanor Janega? Yes. Can you tell us a little bit about the Order of the Golden Fleece?
7:18 Speaker 03 Well, when Philip the Good married Isabella Portugal, it was his first international success, diplomatic success. And so for the wedding, he founded the Order of the Golden Fleece, which was a chivalric order on the lines of the English one.
7:36 Eleanor Janega? Knowing about the Order of the Golden Fleece will completely change the way that you relate to historical portraits for the rest of your life. Because when you see the gentleman, they're always wearing their little Order of the Golden Fleece pin or necklace or something like that. It's, it's a very important flex, I think. As important as these particular regions are, it's true, though, that this is a conglomeration that is brought about through politics and warfare, just as you say. And it's sort of always in danger of falling apart as well, isn't it?
8:09 Speaker 03 Yes, yes. The risks were huge because each principality had its own culture and view of how it wanted to be governed. Perhaps the best example of this would be the Duchy of Gelders, which didn't even want to join the empire. And it didn't until the reign of Charles the Bold. And the people of Gelders wanted to maintain their independence. In fact, there was a long war fought for many, many years. And and they wanted this independence no matter the cost. The Holy Roman Empire also had a claim to Luxembourg and they would fight to maintain that. Flanders had some very independent minded guilds full of laborers who would regularly
8:54 Speaker 03 rebel. Brabant, which is now Belgium, had an estate that just didn't like answering to the Burgundian dukes. So it it took a lot to hold this empire together.
9:06 Eleanor Janega? How central are women to the existence of this particular empire, do you think?
9:12 Speaker 03 Well, I I state this very at the front of the book, that the Valois dukes could not have done this without the women. And and I think they did recognize their importance. And I and I have to admire the dukes for allowing the women to have and hold the power. So there's a lot of good examples of this, and perhaps my favorite is Margaret of Austria. She ruled the, you know, as regent of the Netherlands for her nephew, the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. And and she certainly recognized her power. And she did everything she could to highlight the Valois heritage of the Burgundian empire.
9:54 Eleanor Janega? I think one of the things your book does really well, and one of the reasons that we're having this conversation at all, is that it really highlights the fact that these women are not just wives. I think that there's this tendency to think that, okay, sure, you have a good marriage and women are sort of a bargaining chip in terms of marital alliances. But that's a really reductive way of thinking about how power is wielded by women. You know, I just think that it goes a long way. All you have to do is really look at how Burgundy is run to realize that these are not just
10:36 Eleanor Janega? pawns, like, these are the women who are actually running these areas politically. And it's not seen as strange either. It's seen as basically what happens in Burgundy, no?
10:47 Speaker 03 Yes, yes, it's kind of like inevitable. Um, one good example is like Margaret of Mail. She was the ruler of Flanders, Rethel and Nevers. And so they expected her to rule. They didn't expect her husband to rule. So she was the governor of those, those realms.
11:08 Eleanor Janega? Can we talk a little bit about Margaret of Mail in particular? Who is she? How does she come into view in Burgundy?
11:14 Speaker 03 I really like her story a lot. She was the daughter of Louis, Count of Flanders, Rethel and Nevers. And her mother was Margaret of Brabant. And she was the second surviving daughter of the Duke of Brabant. And so through Margaret of Mail's father's mother, there was also a claim to the Franche Comte, or the County of Burgundy, the Free County of Burgundy, as opposed to the Duchy of Burgundy. And so Philip the Bold had been given the Duchy of Burgundy by his brother, King Charles V of France. And he harbored an ambition to combine the County and Duchy of Burgundy.
11:57 Speaker 03 And to do this, he had to marry Margaret of Mail. So this is where you have the germination of the Burgundian Empire. So this is what he started out with, the Duchy, the County, Flanders, Rethel and Nevers. And he recognized all these claims too, especially the claim to the Duchy of Brabant. He was very interested in that.
12:22 Eleanor Janega? And I think this is such an interesting combination of power because this means that we see the territory that Burgundy is controlling kind of become a bit of a wiggly snake. You know, so it goes out from Burgundy, that's like in the middle of central France, kind of like near Dijon these days. But it also means that we've got Flanders and Rethel and Nevers and it's kind of in a bit of a snake that goes all the way around a bunch of the royal duchesses of France, which is funny. So it's kind of like enclosing these little bits that the, the king of France owns. And also it causes problems, a bit of a headache for the Holy Roman Empire because
13:06 Eleanor Janega? the Holy Roman Empire thinks the low countries are in the Holy Roman Empire. You know, they, it is very, very clear about that fact. So this is a headache for the two major state powers in Europe at the time, I would say.
13:23 Speaker 03 You have kind of a little tension between the king of France, the Duke of Burgundy, and the Holy Roman Emperor that's going on the whole time.
13:32 Eleanor Janega? And it's, it's just such a difficult, it's a really, really difficult kind of road to hoe. You're right in the middle of the two most powerful guys in Europe and they make this work. But, you know, Margaret of Vail is making this work, right? With this incredible influence that she has because she's the Countess of Flanders and the Duchess of Burgundy. Can you tell us a little bit about what that means in, in practice for her?
13:57 Speaker 03 Well, she kind of had two jobs. One was to rule her own properties, which was Flanders, Rethel, and Nevers. And then her husband allowed her to rule in his stead whenever he was away in France, dealing with his mad king nephew, King Charles VI. So she had a lot on her plate. And something that I found interesting was that the people of Flanders wanted her to live in Flanders. They said, you are our ruler, you should live in Flanders. And she kind of balked at that and would live in Picardy instead.
14:36 Speaker 03 So that was pretty.
14:37 Eleanor Janega? That's what the difference.
14:38 Speaker 03 Yeah, it was pretty interesting, but sometimes she would live in Dijon, sometimes she'd live in Boon, she'd live in different parts of of the empire while she was ruling for her husband.
14:48 Eleanor Janega? Do you think that it's it's fair to call her the matriarch of Burgundy? You know, that's I think that that's one of the things that gets thrown around about her a lot. And I I think it's apt.
14:57 Speaker 03 I think so. I mean, not just because of her children and what, you know, their marriage is and what happened with them, but just the fact that she was the one that started the Burgundian Empire.
15:10 Eleanor Janega? Yeah, and I mean fundamentally, if you start this empire through this marriage and you see a woman who is controlling these incredible swathes of land and by popular acclaim, right? Then everyone's going to say, oh, yeah, that's what happens there.
15:24 Speaker 03 Right.
15:25 Eleanor Janega? Like, that's that's just how we started things out. So everyone just kind of accepts it and it it sort of branches out from there.
15:30 Speaker 03 There was no salig law in this area, so women could inherit and women could rule. So, you know, it was expected.
15:41 Eleanor Janega? I think that that that's, you know, one of these things where you tend to, there's there is an assumption about the way that power works in the Middle Ages. And sure, yeah, I think a lot of the time, kings would prefer to have a son. It just makes things easier. But there's a lot of places where they don't care about that at all. It's like, that might be something that happens at the French court, but we're not all French, buddy.
16:02 Eleanor Janega? Now, you have just hinted at this a little bit. Margaret's daughters with Duke Philip, they go on to have really exceptional power in varying places in Europe, but particularly Catherine of Burgundy, and she ends up ruling the county of Ferret, which is in modern day Switzerland, right? Can you tell us a little bit about Catherine?
16:25 Speaker 03 Yeah, because she's my favorite. I just have to admit it. And everybody I talk to, you know, she's the one that comes to the fore because I I've just never experienced anyone like her in all of my studies of medieval women. Her father married her to the Duke of Austria. When she was a baby, basically, but of course she stayed, you know, with her parents until she was of age. And she eventually went to Austria with her and lived with her husband. And it was actually a very successful marriage. We have evidence that her husband treated her very kindly. The only thing was they didn't have any children, which was a big disappointment.
17:10 Speaker 03 But her father had refused to pay her dowry. And so she went to her husband and she said, hey, look, my dad's not paying my dowry. What can you do for me? And he actually allowed her to rule the county of Ferret. And this gave her an income. But it also allowed her to basically rule on her own. Now she kind of acted as a diplomat for her brother and her nephew, John the Fearless and Philip the Good, and for her husband. But she ruled on her own. She she even started petty wars.
17:50 Speaker 03 She made diplomatic and economic treaties with different parts of the Holy Roman Empire. So I think she's just fantastic. But the the really interesting part of her story is there was a man at her father's court, Maximilian Smashman. He was an Austrian nobleman. His mother actually was Burgundian. And so she knew him from a young age, but he offered to help her when she was ruling Ferret. I don't know, he must have been pretty handsome and charming. And they fell in love and she made a marriage to Maximilian after her husband died. She did not tell her brother. She did not tell anyone
18:35 Speaker 03 that she made this marriage. And So her brother said, you know, he didn't stop it. He didn't say, you know, let's done all this thing or whatever. He just told her to come back to Burgundy. But I'm just stunned that she did this without telling anyone. Eventually, Philip the Good intervened and he got the marriage annulled because he didn't want any trouble from Ferret.
19:01 Eleanor Janega? Typical Philip.
19:01 Speaker 03 He wanted to keep Ferret. So he, he, he had the marriage annulled. And I honestly think that she died of a broken heart. So.
19:10 Eleanor Janega? Oh, I mean, I just think that her story is so interesting because it shows us that women do have these ways of pushing forward what they want. So, you know, just saying, well, obviously li- listen, I am a Burgundian woman. Where's my county to rule? Like, let's, let's be having it, right? In the first place. And then in the second place, just, you know, get in your marriage. And, you know, okay, yeah, you can be forced to annul it. That's something that happens. But she got that for a while. And it's more than a lot of women can say for themselves.
19:43 Speaker 03 For sure.
19:44 Eleanor Janega? Good for her, Catherine.
19:45 Speaker 03 Yeah.
19:45 Eleanor Janega? Yeah.
19:46 Speaker 03 Yeah, I just think it's a great story.
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20:51 Eleanor Janega? Ken, we talk a little bit about Margaret of Bavaria because I think this is, this is one of these ones where it's like, ooh, the Avenger, no?
21:00 Speaker 03 Yeah, for sure. She was the daughter of Albert I, Duke of Bavaria Strabing, Count of Hanau, Holland and Zeeland, and Lord of Friesland. So he ruled a good part of the Low Countries. And her mother was Margaret of Lignis, and she was from the House of Pius, and had family relationships with many of the ruling houses of Central Europe, including Brunswick, Brandenburg, as well as the Bohemian and the Czech royal families. There you go. Makes Eleanor happy.
21:36 Eleanor Janega? She's just really incredible, right? Because she makes this very great match to John the Fearless. But when they get married, he's only 13 and she's 22. And that's a bit, that's a bit odd for the medieval period, right?
21:52 Speaker 03 I actually found a couple of other examples. Louis, Count of Flanders, who was the father of Margaret of Mail. His wife, Margaret of Brigant, was seven years older than he was. I kind of liken it to Henry VIII and Catherine of Baragon. It was kind of similar to that situation. And then Joan of Brabant, who was the sister of Margaret of Brabant. When she was 25, her father made a marriage to Venceslas, Duke of Luxembourg, when he was 10 years old. So.
22:25 Eleanor Janega? Ah, well, you know, listen, the House of Luxembourg and the Venceslas is therein. What can I say? They're a catch. They're a catch, right? Obviously, not that I'm biased or anything like that. I do think that that's an important point because, you know, these are not love matches, right? These are political matches. And also, if we are talking about women who are expected to run huge areas of one of the most important political powers in Europe. Yeah, we kind of want him to be a little bit older. No one cares. It's like, yeah, like, get a 22-year-old in. Great, fantastic. She can start working right now. You know, we don't have to worry about training a 16-year-old, right?
23:04 Speaker 03 Right.
23:04 Eleanor Janega? And this ends up becoming really good because John, he gets super involved in the crusade of Nicopolis.
23:12 Speaker 03 Right.
23:13 Eleanor Janega? And then he gets involved in the Burgundian Armagnac War over in France, right? And this makes these big opportunities for Margaret to really take center stage.
23:23 Speaker 03 Yes, because she was pretty much left on her own. By the time her son Philip the Good, you know, was older, he was available to help. But she ran things. I mean, like you say, she was older, she was more experienced. She even would help gear up for war against some of John's enemies. That's, that's just how good she was administratively at ruling.
23:46 Eleanor Janega? Fair play, too, because she ends up becoming sole ruler sooner than she would like, right? You know, she actually ends up seeing John fully assassinated, like, not, not killed, assassinated in about 1419, right?
24:02 Speaker 03 Yes. And I know that this is mentioned a lot in the book because this is one of those incidences in history that had a ripple effect and it went out throughout Europe. And that's what you see in the book and how it affected the lives of these women and these different entities. She ended up, like, declaring revenge on the Armagnacs. And she swore in writing that the Dauphin, the future King Charles VII of France, had caused her husband's death. And she used every administrative skill and all of her considerable energy to pursue this revenge. She started out by sending letters, demanding punishment for
24:45 Speaker 03 the murderers, and she would follow that with embassies and then a contingency of her counselors. She sent wine to the French court. She sent ambassadors to her son, insisting on vengeance. Contacts went out to the Pope, the Holy Roman Emperor, the King of Navarre, the Duchess of Bourbon, the Duchess of Lorraine, other entities and ecclesiastics in the Holy Roman Empire. She had astrologers contacted.
25:16 Speaker 03 And lawyers and secretaries were employed in placing the treasons, the machinations, and the evil deeds on record. However, as hard as she tried, none of this really worked because eventually the Dauphin became King Charles VII, and he had the power to protect, you know, the people that were responsible.
25:39 Eleanor Janega? I think that this is a really interesting story, though, because I think when we talk about the end of the Hundred Years' War, we get so wrapped up in the romance, for example, around Joan of Arc, that we don't really see why some people might have a real problem with Charles VII and why the Treaty of Troy had happened in the first place. And the big part of the reason the Treaty of Troy happens and, you know, like, Henry V is put forward as the King of France is because of Margaret of Bavaria pushing these contacts. So it's not as easy as just saying, oh, well, there is a rightful path of succession. All
26:21 Eleanor Janega? of this makes sense. You know, there are huge amounts of political intrigue swirling around this at all times.
26:28 Speaker 03 Oh, definitely.
26:29 Eleanor Janega? I mean, she also does a great line in pushing her daughters and granddaughters out into the various courts around Europe as well, right? Which you would think would help cement this claim to getting Charles off of the French throne, but unfortunately for her, not so much. After these particular marriages, though, what houses do we see have Burgundian women marrying to them?
26:54 Speaker 03 Yeah. Well, Margaret's oldest daughter, Margaret of Nevers, she was married to the Dauphin, Charles VI's son Louis, Duke of Guyenne. However, because her father had the Cabochean Rebellion in 1413 and killed the Duke of Orleans in 1407, Louis was not really happy with his father-in-law. And so he got his marriage to Margaret annulled. However, she did end up marrying the Count of Richemont, who was the brother of the Duke of Brittany. So she married into the House of Brittany. Her daughter Mary of Burgundy married into the House of Cleves. So she was the Duchess of Cleves.
27:39 Speaker 03 Two of her daughters made really good marriages. Catherine married the Duke of Gelders and she, oh, boy. She had a great story because she was not happy with her husband taking her money and her property from her. And so she conspired with her son to kick her husband off of his ducal throne and she was successful. So
28:01 Eleanor Janega? Oh, I love it.
28:02 Speaker 03 Isn't that a great story?
28:03 Eleanor Janega? It's my favorite.
28:04 Speaker 03 Yeah.
28:04 Eleanor Janega? Oh, it's my favorite. I absolutely love it when women kick their husbands off the throne, unfortunately.
28:09 Speaker 03 Just because they didn't give them their money.
28:11 Eleanor Janega? And then Listen, pay your wife, pay your wife and it won't happen. Okay.
28:16 Speaker 03 And another important match was Catherine's daughter Mary, her oldest daughter Mary, would be sent to the Burgundian court under Isabella Portugal's guidance. And she married James the Second, King of Scots. So she married into the Stuart House. And then Catherine's daughter Marie, Isabella Portugal, arranged for the release of Charles, Duke of Orleans, from being a prisoner of war in England over 20 years. She got him released and she married him to Marie of Cleves. And her son became Louis the 12th, King of France.
28:54 Eleanor Janega? It's just incredible.
28:55 Speaker 03 I love all of these connections.
28:58 Eleanor Janega? You can make a really great pin board with string that shows you where all these Burgundian women end up. And I mean, this is just networking par excellence, right? By the time you have this many relatives in varying courts, it just means that you can pull strings really, really well at varying points. You know, you can always get somebody on side because there are just these familial relationships. And that is how this stuff works. So it's incredible planning on her part.
29:31 Speaker 03 Yes. I had so much fun doing the family trees. In the, in the back of the book, just this one, this one, this one.
29:39 Eleanor Janega? Yeah. I mean, I had to stare at them for a really long time because they're so complex that it is very difficult to, to just kind of take them in at first glance. But I think in and of itself, that tells you everything you need to know, especially just about the, the force of will that Margaret had. I mean, yeah, she doesn't get her way with picking the King of France as she would like, but also she gets pretty close. I mean, come on, like she's almost a kingmaker.
30:05 Speaker 03 She is. Yes.
30:07 Eleanor Janega? No, listen, we've been dancing around her. You've referred to her repeatedly. Can we talk about Isabel of Portugal? I love Isabel of Portugal. She, for me, is one of the most exciting rulers that we see in, in late medieval Europe.
30:21 Speaker 03 She's actually the person that got me into the Valois Dukes of Burgundy because I read a biography of her by Aileen S. Taylor. And I got to her because she is a grand, a great granddaughter of King Edward III of England. Her father was John I of Portugal and her mother was Philippa of Lancaster, the daughter of John of Gaunt. And so when I learned about her and she married Philip the Good when she was in her 30s.
30:51 Eleanor Janega? This is astonishing. I love it.
30:52 Speaker 03 This is astonishing. And then I found out about her son, who I think was mentally ill, you know? This got me started in, in the Valois Dukes.
31:02 Eleanor Janega? And I mean, she's really the first kind of connection into Burgundy that brings the empire up onto like really the international stage. I mean, by the time you're marrying, you know, Portuguese princesses, that, that puts you on the map, right?
31:20 Speaker 03 Yeah. He had, he had first married Michelle of France, the daughter of King Charles VI, because he, he was trying to have a, you know, an alliance with France during the, the Hundred Years' War. And then when she died, he married one of his cousins, Bon of Artois. But she died like several months after the marriage, so it didn't last very long. So then Philip sent these ambassadors to Portugal. And I have a description in there of the ambassadors going to. Portugal and meeting with the king and his sons and Madame Isabelle. And it's really, really quite intriguing. But this indicated that Burgundy was on the map as a major political player in Western Europe.
32:04 Speaker 03 And then when all of these nieces and nephews went to the Burgundian court and were under Isabel, this was a pretty big deal. And another indication is Isabel brokered the marriage from Mary of Gilders to James II of Scotland. So we're talking about international diplomacy now.
32:22 Eleanor Janega? Yeah, I think that this is a really important point because it does tend to be that people, if they're not at the royal level, and even when they are at the royal level, they marry the people next door, right? They marry people in their particular sphere of power because that's who you want to call on, right? You know, it helps if someone attacks you if you've got the county next door on your side, right? Because you can just say, hey, can you help us out? But by the time we're marrying people from the Iberian Peninsula, it just shows how much power the Burgundians have because it's like saying, well, we might have interests down there as well. You know, we might need, who knows, to put the French in a pincer movement from the south.
33:06 Eleanor Janega? This sort of thing, you know, it's, it's kind of a statement of intent in a way, I feel. Well, can we talk a little bit about the influence that Isabella has? You know, she's got, yes, this incredible knack of matchmaking, but she also very specifically is really good at brokering peace treaties, right?
33:25 Speaker 03 And I mean, Philip trusted her, you know, implicitly. He would send her on these missions. And so Isabel ended up making peace treaties between England, France and Burgundy, and essentially ending the Hundred Years' War. And with the marriage of Charles of Orleans and Maria of Cleve, she kind of ended that, you know, the Armaniac Burgundian conflict. That's like a combination of those two. Like I said, he trusted her implicitly. And actually, when she would be at these congresses, the people that were there to negotiate, they didn't want to deal with Philip because. He had betrayed them so many times. They insisted on dealing with Isabel.
34:10 Speaker 03 That that shows you how much power she had.
34:12 Eleanor Janega? And it just shows how people really do understand that she's a steady political hand on the tiller. You know, like the English are saying, not Philip again. Absolutely not. We need to deal with a reasonable person whose word can be kept. And, you know, if that's a woman, that's a woman.
34:31 Speaker 03 Right.
34:31 Eleanor Janega? It doesn't necessarily matter what your gender is. What matters is, are you a good statesperson? And Isabel is, you know, I think that it's a lot more difficult to negotiate peace than it is to be an idiot and keep blundering into war over and over again. That's easy, right? It's a very, very easy to annoy people.
34:52 Speaker 03 Sure.
34:54 Eleanor Janega? And also, I think that it's quite interesting because really, the last part of the Hundred Years' War, it is, you know, the Burgundians are as involved against France as anybody else. And we tend to look at it now as a conflict of England versus France. And that's just not the case. And also, I feel like that's really spitting in the face of poor Margaret of Bavaria.
35:16 Speaker 03 Right.
35:18 Eleanor Janega? She would want you to think this is a Burgundian conflict, you know? Come on.
35:21 Speaker 03 Right.
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36:26 Eleanor Janega? But I think also, we have to talk about, obviously, Margaret of York.
36:31 Speaker 03 Of course.
36:31 Eleanor Janega? Can't get out of a conversation without talking about Margaret of York. And indeed, around history towers, in particular in the Gomme medieval dungeon, there is a lot of discussion of Margaret of York because of the incredible power that she wields and also her dalliances with annoying the English court.
36:51 Speaker 03 Yes.
36:52 Eleanor Janega? Can you tell us a little bit about her and how she's this interesting representation, not only of the, you know, French and Burgundian claims, but English ones?
37:02 Speaker 03 Sure. Margaret was the daughter of Richard Duke of York and Cecily Neville. And her brothers were King Edward IV of England and Richard III. Her marriage to Charles the Bold was probably one of the most brilliant matches in English history. And I have to say, Isabella Portugal was instrumental in making this match. She wanted this match for her son. For the first few years of her marriage, she was not heavily involved in the government of Burgundy. It was only later that she started taking on a lot more responsibilities, especially when Charles was away, waging war, which is what he did. And then she started pretty much to manage the entire empire.
37:46 Speaker 03 And along with this, she and Charles's daughter Mary of Burgundy had a very close relationship. It was like mother daughter, even though she was a stepdaughter, but she considered her her daughter. One of the things that Margaret did during her reign as duchess is she went to England for, I think, about four months on a trade mission at her brother's court, Edward IV. So that shows you she was starting to get into managing things and taking on responsibility.
38:13 Eleanor Janega? Can you talk a little bit about her role after Charles the Bold dies? Because, you know, we talk lots about Charles the Bold, and quite rightly, because, you know, he's one of the most influential men in Europe, but it doesn't really stop her from taking over at all. She's just like, oh, yeah, well, he's dead anyway.
38:33 Speaker 03 Actually, I think this is when she came to the forefront. This is just my personal opinion, but I think that the way that things were handled after Charles's death. I have to attribute it to her. She arranged for concessions to a lot of the estates in the Low Countries that Maria Burgundy made. There was a charter, a huge charter, where some freedoms were given back to these entities in the Low Countries because they they kind of balked at what Charles the Bold was doing because he was kind of heavy handed in the way he ruled. And so I think she was key. She was totally
39:12 Speaker 03 key. Maria Burgundy was allowed to keep the title of Duchess of Burgundy even though Louis XI had seized the Duchy of Burgundy. So she wasn't really ruling that any longer, but she was allowed to keep the title. And I think that also Margaret arranged for the marriage of Maria Burgundy to Maximilian, the son of the Holy Roman Empire. And so this is where the end of the Burgundian Empire starts, is with that marriage.
39:42 Eleanor Janega? Yeah, because it does end up sort of just getting absorbed into the Habsburg conglomeration at that point, right? I mean, the Habsburgs, if you leave them alone for five seconds, they will just absorb your your land. That's an unfortunate truth about Habsburgs. But I will say that within this, Margaret plays an absolute blinder because she's super instrumental in bringing up her grandson, who will become Charles V, the ruler of the largest European mass the world had seen up to that point. And I mean, yeah, he he becomes the Holy Roman Emperor par excellence, right? And Margaret plays
40:27 Eleanor Janega? no small part in his education in getting him ready to be that person.
40:31 Speaker 03 That's right. That's right.
40:32 Eleanor Janega? We never get to talk about Charles V around here because he's technically, since he's technically early modern, but I'm super interested in this.
40:38 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah.
40:39 Eleanor Janega? God bless him. I love it. You know, the man is he's born in the Lowlands. He controls Spain. Don't worry about it. He's a polyglot.
40:45 Speaker 03 And America, too.
40:46 Eleanor Janega? Yeah, like an absolute. I mean, now there is an emperor. Okay, like that's, say what you will about the Holy Roman Empire. I don't I don't care what Voltaire has to say. This is this is an empire. The major reason we end up talking about Margaret of York around here is because she is also a huge supporter of the pretender to the throne Perkin Warbeck.
41:07 Speaker 03 Yes.
41:08 Eleanor Janega? And who I And most people maintain steadfastly was a pretender to the throne. But some people around here are big fans of Richard III and like to pretend that Perkin Warburg is really, sorry, I'm laughing too hard. I love to make fun of Matt. He likes to believe that Perkin Warbeck is actually a claimant to the English throne because that lets him think the princes didn't die in the tower, which is very sweet. But one of the arguments that he makes here is, well, why would Margaret support him otherwise? And I'm like, because she's incredibly powerful and it's very funny to mess with the tutors.
41:46 Speaker 03 Well, there's something else.
41:47 Eleanor Janega? She can, you know?
41:48 Speaker 03 Something else too involved. Her brothers Edward and Richard had given her grants for trade and she was receiving income from that. And when Henry VII took over, he took that away.
42:02 Eleanor Janega? And it's just not that hard. Fundamentally, she's got the cash to throw behind to pretend or she could go, yeah, like, let's, let's see how this boils down. And if it works out, great, she's got her trade agreements back again. It's not that much of an ask on her part. And the upshot is huge. So of course she's going to support this guy, right?
42:25 Speaker 03 But she did end up writing Henry a letter apologizing, saying she would no longer interfere, so.
42:33 Eleanor Janega? She shouldn't have apologized, in my opinion. She did nothing wrong. Give it a, give it a go. I think, I think it's very, very funny to, to mess with the tutors personally. I think that's a good thing and we should see more of it. Susan, do you have any favorite Burgundian women that we haven't gossiped about yet this time?
42:50 Speaker 03 Yes, we do. Because Philip the Bold's daughter, Mary, married the Duke of Savoy. And I have to tell you, Savoy has a really, really intriguing history. And her son Louis married Anne of Lusignan and they had like 13 kids. I mean, that survived, which was highly unusual. But one of her daughters, Charlotte, married King Louis XI of France. She was nine years old and he was 28.
43:20 Eleanor Janega? Oh, wow.
43:21 Speaker 03 But it actually worked out. And then she had the daughters Anne de Beaujoux, who ruled France for eight years as the regent.
43:29 Eleanor Janega? Of course.
43:30 Speaker 03 And also her daughter Jean, who was born with disabilities. Louis forced Louis, the Duke of Orleans, the future King Louis the 12th, to marry his disabled daughter. I mean, you can't make this stuff up. It's just a great story. But he ended up divorcing her and then she started a monastery and was eventually made a saint. Another one of Anne and Louis's daughters was Bonn, Urbana of Savoy. She married the Duke of Milan, the crazy Duke of Milan. And she actually ruled Milan for a while as regent for her son.
44:08 Speaker 03 So the regency thing is, I say in the book that Catherine of Burgundy was kind of the Duchess of Austria and the Countess of Farette. She was kind of the first one to kind of rule on her own. And so this tradition of having regents in the Low Countries and in other places like Milan, started with her. But anyway, those women, I just, I just love those women. The women of Savoy, they're great.
44:37 Eleanor Janega? Anything else that you want to talk about that I haven't prodded you into yet?
44:41 Speaker 03 I don't think so, but I think if you read the book, you will become as intrigued with the Valois Dukes of Burgundy and their women as I became.
44:48 Eleanor Janega? I cannot recommend this book enough. It's a real, real page turner. And it really explicates the realities of ruling a sophisticated political conglomeration in the late medieval period. There are a lot of people who think that medieval succession is just very by the book. It's very dull. It's men talking about men. And I think your book and Burgundy show that that is simply not the case.
45:18 Speaker 03 Yes, yes. That's what makes it so intriguing. Just the way that they amassed all these territories in different ways. Marriages, war, it's just fantastic. Bullying the women, that's one of the big ones. There are several women that get bullied in this book.
45:37 Eleanor Janega? I like the women who bully a little bit more, I'm afraid. But, you know, on the other hand, that is no shade at the ones who do get bullied. It is a bit of a snake pit to walk into. Gotta have your wits about you if you're going to be one of the ruling women.
45:50 Speaker 03 Yes, for sure.
45:51 Eleanor Janega? This has been an absolute delight. Thank you so much for coming on to talk to us. And please write another one about all the other women you've uncovered.
46:00 Speaker 03 It's just like you read, oh, this woman had these daughters and then these daughters did this and, oh, man, it's fantastic.
46:11 Eleanor Janega? Thank you so much to Susan once again for joining me. And thank you for listening to Gone Medieval from History Hit. If you were interested in some of the topics we mentioned in this episode, you might want to go back and check out our past episodes on the Hundred Years' War and Joan of Arc. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original TV documentaries, including my recent documentary on the Trials of Joan of Arc, and ad-free podcasts by signing up at historyhit.com/subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify, where you can leave us comments and suggestions, or wherever you get your podcasts. And tell all your friends and family that you've gone medieval. Until next time.
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