MURDEROUS MINDS: Charles Manson & The Manson Family Cult Pt. 2

In the summer of 1969, Charles Manson believed the world was about to descend into an apocalyptic race war he called “Helter Skelter.” But when his prophecy failed to materialize, Manson decided to start it himself… by convincing his followers in the Manson Family cult to commit some of the most horrific murders in true crime history. Murderous Minds is a Crime House Original. For more true crime content, follow us @crimehouse on TikTok and Instagram.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:32Vanessa Richardson?

  We have an exciting update. Mind of a Serial Killer is now Killer Minds, expanding beyond serial killers to cover cult leaders, crimes of passion, spree killers, and more.

• 0:45Tristin Engels?

  Nothing else is changing. Same expert analysis, same deep storytelling, now twice a week.

• 0:52Vanessa Richardson?

  New episodes drop every Monday and Thursday, right here. No need to do anything, just stay tuned. Now, enjoy the episode.

• 1:08Speaker 02

  This is Crime House.

• 1:14Vanessa Richardson?

  Loyalty is a powerful thing. The willingness to stick by someone's side through thick and thin creates a deep sense of trust. You know someone will be there for you, no matter what comes your way. It's an unbreakable bond. And in the case of Charles Manson, he used that bond to deadly effect.

• 1:42Vanessa Richardson?

  Charles's followers were so loyal, they obeyed his every order without question. They left their families, took all kinds of drugs, had sex with whoever he said, and of course, committed murder. But that wasn't all Charles asked of them. In the end, he wanted them to take the blame for what he asked them to do, even if it meant losing their own lives.

• 2:26Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is fascinating. It controls how we think, how we feel, how we love, and how we hate. And sometimes the mind drives us to do something truly unspeakable. This is Killer Minds, formerly known as Mind of a Serial Killer, a Crime House original. Every Monday and Thursday, we'll be taking deep dives into the minds of history's most notorious serial killers and murderers. The show is still the same, the name just changed. And if you're interested in more true crime stories from this week in history, check out Crime House, the show. Every episode covers multiple cases unified by the same theme, so every week you get something a little different.

• 3:11Vanessa Richardson?

  At Crime House, we want to express our gratitude to you, our community, for making this possible. Please support us by rating, reviewing, and following Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly matters. And to enhance your Killer Minds listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode ad-free, and instead of having to wait for each episode of a two-part series, you'll get access to both at once, plus exciting Crime House bonus content. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 3:45Tristin Engels?

  And I'm Dr. Tristin Engels. As Vanessa takes you through our subject stories, I'll be helping her analyze what drove them to commit their crimes as we try to understand how someone can do such horrible things.

• 3:58Vanessa Richardson?

  This is the second of two episodes on Charles Manson. Some call him a cult leader, some call him a serial killer. Some wonder if he can even be considered a killer at all, because even though he went to prison for murder, Charles didn't deliver the fatal blow to any of his victims. His followers were his weapon of choice. Last time, we went through Charles' early life and the road that led him to form the notorious Manson Family cult. Today, we'll follow Charles' obsession with fame, his descent into madness, and the tragic murders that still haunt society today.

• 4:40Vanessa Richardson?

  And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?

• 4:53Vanessa Richardson?

  By the time Charles Manson was 32, he'd spent half his life in a correctional facility, from abusive reform schools to federal prisons. He used that time to become an expert manipulator, using psychological techniques, religion, and his natural charisma to bend people to his will. After being released from prison in March 1967, Charles headed for the San Francisco Bay Area, where he started building the cult known as the Manson Family. Surrounded by the love and devotion of his followers, he was showered with the attention he'd always wanted. But that wasn't enough for Charles.

• 5:38Vanessa Richardson?

  He had big dreams of becoming a famous musician, and that wasn't going to happen in the Bay. So in November 1967, he and a handful of followers bought an old bus and drove it down to L.A.

• 5:54Tristin Engels?

  We talked about his many failed attempts at breaking into the music scene in Part 1, but let's break down why, despite this, he is still so dedicated to making it big. Obviously, he's seeking fame, he's seeking notoriety. But remember, he was fascinated by the Beatles, and he was primarily attracted to them because of the cult following that they had. They had an intense fan base that was worldwide. The footage of Beatlemania showed women in a frenzy, even fainting at the sight of them. This is what Charles is attracted to. He wants that scale of devotion. And even though he has been told by people in the industry he's essentially not what they're looking for,

• 6:38Tristin Engels?

  and maybe not as talented as he might believe he is, Charles is extremely grandiose. He believes he can control people's minds. He started his own cult and his own religion, so to speak, and he is simply not capable of rational thinking.

• 6:55Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, unfortunately for Charles, no amount of self-belief could make up for his lack of musical talent. Even with the backing of his friend, Beach Boys drummer Dennis Wilson, nobody was willing to give Charles a record deal, including an influential producer named Terry Melcher. His move to LA wasn't a total bust, though. Within a year of getting to LA, the family had grown to about three dozen people. To keep the group together, Charles moved them to an old western movie set outside the city called Spawn Ranch in the fall of 1968. The days were filled with ranch working in the morning, LSD trips in the afternoon,

• 7:39Vanessa Richardson?

  and group sex at night. But it wasn't all fun and games. Charles used these activities to remind everyone that he was their undisputed leader, selecting work assignments, overseeing the drug trips, and choosing who slept with who. Throughout it all, he continued to preach the same new-age philosophy that he'd developed in San Francisco. And as winter approached, Charles added something new into the mix. He'd recently become obsessed with The Beatles' latest record, known as "The White Album." He was fixated on one track in particular, "Helter Skelter."

• 8:22Vanessa Richardson?

  Charles was convinced the song foretold an apocalyptic revolution triggered by a massive race war. Of course, he had a plan to keep his family safe from the violence. They would move to Death Valley, a stretch of unforgiving terrain in California's Mojave Desert. There, he believed they'd find shelter in an underground city of gold, outside of time and space. And by early 1969, there were signs that his prophecy would actually come true. Violent protests erupted in LA and all around the country, fueled by racial tensions and the Vietnam War.

• 9:04Vanessa Richardson?

  Charles told the family that the apocalypse would be upon them by the summer.

• 9:09Tristin Engels?

  For some time now, Charles has been exhibiting signs of delusions. The earliest delusion is the delusion of grandeur. And that is when someone has an inflated sense of self and believes that they are superior to others. And they often have unrealistic wealth or power in their mind. Often, delusions of grandeur manifest with a religious theme, which we have definitely seen here. But his belief that he can control the thoughts of others is also a delusion of grandeur. Now, he's exhibiting possible delusions of reference, which is when someone believes that ordinary events have personal significance. The fact that he believes he's getting a message of an impending apocalyptic revolution

• 9:53Tristin Engels?

  only to him, from the song "Helter Skelter", is an example of a delusion of reference. Now, does he really believe that the message he is getting is actually true? Or is he using that as a means to instill fear into his family to control them? That's the question. Charles has been a very difficult individual for professionals to diagnose because he is such a master manipulator. And it's been very difficult with Charles to discern what is a genuine psychiatric symptom from manipulation for secondary gain.

• 10:27Vanessa Richardson?

  Dr. Engels, how much of this can be chalked up to the massive amounts of drugs they were taking? Can LSD affect our psychology so much that it leaves us susceptible to delusions like this?

• 10:37Tristin Engels?

  That's an excellent question. And the fact that their drug of choice appears to be LSD, which is a hallucinogen in terms of its classification, it is very possible and very likely that the substance has been inducing persistent psychosis. Substance-induced psychosis happens very frequently, and it is a condition recognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. There are cases in which someone may have a predisposition to a psychotic disorder, and the use of substances awakens that. And then they end up having a psychotic disorder, and the condition itself can become fixed or settled as a result of persistent substance use.

• 11:22Vanessa Richardson?

  Whether or not Charles actually believed any of this, he was certainly acting like it. To prepare for helter-skelter, he taught the family how to fight with knives. He also took them out on what he called creepy crawling expeditions, where they practiced breaking into people's homes without getting caught. He even found a place for them to stay in Death Valley for when the apocalypse started. It was an isolated property in the middle of the Mojave Desert, known as Barker Ranch. The place was completely off the grid. Charles sold it to his followers as the ultimate spot to ride out the apocalypse while they found the fabled underground city.

• 12:05Vanessa Richardson?

  Conveniently, it would also make them completely reliant on him, with nowhere else to go, especially if they started to have second thoughts about their plan. Or maybe it's not so convenient. Mm-hmm. But Charles seemed to be all in. Down in LA, he got a cheap dune buggy and told his followers to get it ready for more rugged terrain. He made them gather extra supplies and even taught them desert survival techniques. However, all of this cost money. Money Charles and the Manson family didn't have. Most of the time, they got by with panhandling around LA and scavenging around grocery stores.

• 12:46Vanessa Richardson?

  But if Charles' plan was going to work, they needed a lot more. So he turned to a more reliable income stream: drug dealing. To do this, Charles connected with a biker gang called the Straight Satans. They were happy to help him get the drugs he wanted, as long as they could come to the ranch and enjoy them. Before long, the Straight Satans were a constant presence at Spawn Ranch, and so were their drugs. But the bikers used substances more potent than marijuana and LSD. They especially liked amphetamines, and they gladly shared them with the family.

• 13:28Vanessa Richardson?

  Charles didn't seem happy about it. These new drugs made his followers moody and tense, harder to control. But with helter-skelter on its way, he was willing to put up with it.

• 13:41Tristin Engels?

  So let's remember that Charles first learned how to groom, recruit, and maintain women from the pimps he was incarcerated with, and that he spent most of his life in and out of institutions, learning how to be very criminally versatile. So it's no surprise that he would bring in a biker gang to help them make money. And it wouldn't be surprising if that also meant sort of trafficking his own family to these men in exchange for payment. And although he is struggling to control their behavior while on methamphetamine, he can still keep them dependent on him for the substances in the meantime. And I think that he feels this is an easier risk than cutting off the supply altogether. He is a career criminal, after all,

• 14:25Tristin Engels?

  and he will continue to show criminal versatility to get his way.

• 14:31Vanessa Richardson?

  However Charles felt about what was going on at Spawn Ranch, it's possible he was starting to doubt his prophecy. Because even with an apocalyptic race war to worry about, he was still trying to get himself a record deal. Charles had stayed in touch with Terry Melcher, the producer who was friends with the Beach Boys drummer Dennis Wilson. Terry came by Spawn Ranch sometimes, mostly to fool around with some of the women. Charles was all too happy to oblige him, as long as Terry gave his music another chance. And in March of 1969, Terry finally agreed to come over and listen to some of his songs. Charles was certain this would be his big break.

• 15:16Vanessa Richardson?

  But the day of Terry's visit to Spawn Ranch arrived, and he never showed up. Charles was furious. This was supposed to be his moment, and Terry had blown him off. On March 23rd, he headed to Terry's house to give him a piece of his mind. The house was atop Cielo Drive, a winding road in LA's Benedict Canyon. But when Charles got there, Terry wasn't home, because he'd moved out months earlier. Eventually, Charles did get ahold of Terry, and the producer promised to come back out to Spawn Ranch on May 18th.

• 15:57Vanessa Richardson?

  This time, he showed up, but it was clear he wasn't interested in signing Charles to a deal, and nobody else was either. There would be no music career for Charles. His dream was officially dead.

• 16:14Tristin Engels?

  Let's explore how he might have handled this news, given that we've outlined how he might deal with disappointment, especially if there's a delusion there. And let's break down what a delusion is. A delusion is a fixed belief that is unchanged. It cannot be challenged, even with evidence that suggests that the delusion is incorrect, or the belief is wrong. If you challenge the delusion, you can immediately become part of the delusion, especially if there is paranoia. But more importantly, you lose all rapport and trust. So this was a big letdown for Charles and his delusions of grandeur, not only for the reasons I've already highlighted, but on some level, I think he worries that whenever

• 16:55Tristin Engels?

  his grandiosity is challenged, his family will start to challenge him too. And losing the cult following, like I've talked before, is very monumental for him. That would be the biggest loss he could ever endure.

• 17:08Vanessa Richardson?

  So when dealing with self-centered people, narcissists, are they ever capable of learning from a reality check like this? Or do they tend to double down and only get worse?

• 17:18Tristin Engels?

  Yes, of course. I've seen individuals with delusions learn to reality test appropriately and regain rational thought. But this takes a combination of therapy and medication, in addition to abstinence from all substances. And it can be done. However, I've also seen individuals with the same severity of thought disorder as Charles, who have not been responsive to medication or therapy as well. It really is a case-by-case basis, and it depends on a number of variables, including the age of onset. Someone with an early onset of psychosis or delusions has a much less successful prognosis in the long term than someone with a more standard statistical age of onset.

• 18:02Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, it seems like Charles dealt with the disappointment by refocusing on his helter-skelter prophecy. As the summer of 1969 began, the 34-year-old pushed his family even harder to prepare for the upcoming apocalypse. Their creepy crawling expeditions turned to outright thievery, and his LSD-fueled sermons focused primarily on death. Before long, Charles started asking his followers if they'd die for him. They assured him they would. But as the days crept by with no sign of a society-ending race war, the family started to get antsy. Charles knew he had to do something.

• 18:47Vanessa Richardson?

  If the apocalypse didn't happen, then his followers might lose their faith in him. That's when Charles realized, if the apocalypse wasn't going to happen on its own, maybe he needed to start it himself.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  In 2010, a family of four in California goes missing. Investigators spend years looking for answers. Is this a family on the run, or is the truth far more sinister? From ABC Audio in 2020, this is What Happened to the Mixed Days. Follow What Happened to the Mixed Days for weekly episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Or if you can't wait, the entire series is streaming now, ad-free for subscribers to 2020 True Crime Plus. Find 2020 True Crime Plus on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today.

• 19:40Vanessa Richardson?

  As the summer of 1969 began, 34-year-old Charles Manson decided he wanted to kick-start the helter-skelter apocalypse himself. Inspired by a track from the Beatles' White Album, he was certain that an impending race war would drive the world into chaos. But so far, it had failed to materialize, and Charles was going to do something about it.

• 20:06Tristin Engels?

  Like I've previously mentioned, Charles Manson has always been such an intriguing case to so many experts because it's been very difficult to tease out what is manipulation and what is a genuine psychiatric condition. I have never met Charles Manson and nor have I ever evaluated him, even though I had been working at the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation at the time of his incarceration. I never worked at his institution, though. So what I'm sharing is based on what was made public, and it's obviously for education and entertainment purposes only. But with that being said, there have been a number of diagnoses over the years of Charles Manson.

• 20:47Tristin Engels?

  And in 1997, he was reevaluated by a team of psychologists. I have taken lectures from one of the forensic psychologists who was part of this reevaluation, and the results of this were made public after his death with his permission and with the permission of the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. And in these results, the objective testing indicated that he had likely a primary diagnosis of a mood disorder, something like bipolar disorder, but he had chronic hypomania, not mania. And they also found that he had antisocial personality disorder, but it was so severe when assessed with psychopathic traits.

• 21:31Tristin Engels?

  Remember, psychopathy is not a diagnosis, but his score on an assessment of psychopathy indicated that he was severe enough that it was the 98th percentile for male prison inmates and the 99th percentile for male forensic psychiatric patients.

• 21:47Vanessa Richardson?

  Could this desire of his to fulfill a prophecy like that himself be an indication that he never really believed in it in the first place?

• 21:56Tristin Engels?

  This is the thing where experts have largely been sort of divided. But the way I see it, given that he had a mood disorder as a primary diagnosis based on this reevaluation, and a mood disorder is considered episodic in nature.

• 22:13Tristin Engels?

  And he also had a personality disorder, and that is not episodic in nature. That's chronic. And that's where the manipulation was really driven from. Manson wanted fame and notoriety. This much we know. And I am not convinced, given the most recent assessments done on him and given all of the things that had been made public, including his own interviews, that he really believed in the apocalypse. I am not convinced that he did. I'm more convinced that he needed something for his followers to believe in. And that something has to be big enough for them to believe in him too. And I think that's what he was believing in, in terms of that.

• 22:55Vanessa Richardson?

  He'd promised his followers that they'd escape to an underground city of gold in the middle of Death Valley. But if they were going to survive in the desert long enough to find the city, they needed money, and their drug-dealing operation wasn't cutting it. To get the funds they needed, they'd have to steal it. After cycling through a few options, Charles landed on Gary Hinman, a music teacher and drug dealer he'd met when the family first moved to L.A. Charles believed Gary was flush with cash. He had a couple of cars, and Charles knew he had a big vacation to Japan coming up. Plus, one of Charles' best friends, a guy named Bobby Bosole,

• 23:39Vanessa Richardson?

  had it out for Gary. He apparently sold Bobby a bad batch of a hallucinogen called mescaline, and Bobby was happy to help Charles shake Gary down.

• 23:52Vanessa Richardson?

  On the night of July 25, 1969, Bobby and three of Charles' most loyal followers went over to Gary's house. The group included Charles' first recruit, Mary Brunner, the first male family member, Bruce Davis, and Susan Atkins, who'd joined the family in that first summer in the Bay Area. When they showed up at Gary's door, he didn't suspect a thing. He invited them right in. But Bobby didn't waste any time. He demanded Gary pay him back for the bad drugs. Gary swore he didn't have any money to give them, and that made Bobby angry. But even after he beat Gary to a pulp,

• 24:36Vanessa Richardson?

  he swore he didn't have the kind of money they were after. When Charles found out, he told the group to keep working on Gary until he gave everything up. For almost three days, Bobby Bocelé beat Gary within an inch of his life. Eventually, Charles told Bobby to kill him.

• 24:59Tristin Engels?

  So this is the first time that Charles Manson was able to get another person to kill at his command. And this is a level of power and superiority that he has not yet had. A line has been crossed now with his family, where they've shown their loyalty, and now they're further trapped in his grip, especially knowing that they could become a target themselves if they disobey or challenge him. They are now sort of further entrapped in this cycle of psychological and physical abuse that is the Manson Family cult.

• 25:34Vanessa Richardson?

  However Charles felt at that moment, by killing Gary, he realized they had an opportunity to get more than money out of the situation. It was the perfect moment to begin helter-skelter. Remember, Charles was convinced the apocalypse would start with a massive race war. After Gary Hinman was dead, he had Bobby draw a paw print on the wall with Gary's blood, along with the words "political piggy." It was the symbol of the Black Panthers. Charles hoped it would seem like the Black Panthers viciously murdered an innocent white man, and then the uprising would start.

• 26:15Vanessa Richardson?

  Gary's body was discovered three days later, on July 31st. But the race war didn't materialize. Charles' plan was falling apart.

• 26:27Vanessa Richardson?

  A few days later, Bobby was pulled over while driving Gary Hinman's stolen car. The police searched it and found a bloody knife in the wheel well. And Bobby matched a fingerprint they'd pulled from the crime scene. He tried to make some excuses, but the cops weren't buying it. Bobby was arrested and charged with murder. When Charles found out, he knew time was of the essence. Bobby wasn't a patient guy, and if Charles couldn't get him out of trouble, there was a good chance he would talk. To get the heat off of Bobby, Charles decided they would do some copycat killings to make it seem like the real killer was still out there.

• 27:11Vanessa Richardson?

  And Charles had the perfect target in mind. Terry Melcher's old house on Cielo Drive.

• 27:22Vanessa Richardson?

  Now, there's some disagreement over why Charles chose Cielo Drive as the target. Some people think it was a way to get back at Terry Melcher for refusing to give him a record deal. But others have pointed out that Charles likely knew Terry wasn't living there by that point. So maybe he chose it just because it was a house he knew. It was secure, hidden behind a gate, so there was little chance of getting caught in the act or anyone escaping. Either way, whoever was in that house would have a lot of money for them to take to Death Valley. For Charles, that was as good of a reason as any.

• 28:02Vanessa Richardson?

  On August 9, 1969, Charles put a follower named Tex Watson in charge of the operation. He was joined by Susan Atkins, who'd been a part of the Gary Hinman murder, along with Patricia Krenwinkel and Linda Kasabian. All were fiercely loyal to Charles and willing to kill in his name.

• 28:24Tristin Engels?

  Hmm, we've talked about the various ways Charles was able to lure followers and how he maintained them. And just to recap on that, he preyed on young, vulnerable women who were looking for love, looking for belonging, and he gave them what they needed to feel that, while also isolating them from their family and the world. So how could he get them to be so dedicated that they would kill for him? Well, fear, isolation, and substance dependence is certainly a way to distort their reality and open them up to undue influence. Now imagine you've been made to believe that there was an impending apocalypse, that you needed money to prepare for, so that you could survive.

• 29:05Tristin Engels?

  And you're motivated in that survival because you want to protect each other as a family. That certainly could amplify their motivation. On top of which, you're isolated from anyone who could provide any reality testing and perspective against what Charles has been teaching. And when you add in the regular use of hallucinogens and stimulants, that could exacerbate paranoia, and it could absolutely cause impairment in judgment and rational thought.

• 29:36Vanessa Richardson?

  The details from the murders at Cielo Drive are well documented, so there's no need to go over all the grisly details here. For those who are interested in more specifics, check out The Life and Times of Charles Manson by Jeff Gwynn. But just like the Gary Hinman murder, the crimes at Cielo Drive were violent and bloody, and by the end of it, five innocent people were dead. Jay Sebring, Wojciech Frykowski, Abigail Folger, Stephen Parent, and, most famously, the house's current resident, actress Sharon Tate, who was pregnant.

• 30:18Vanessa Richardson?

  Even though Charles didn't get any money out of it, he did get something else he wanted: publicity. After the bodies were discovered the next morning, it was all over the news. The sheer violence of it was staggering, and there was the celebrity aspect. Along with being a famous actress, Sharon Tate was married to the director, Roman Polanski. But there was one thing missing. Even though they left the Black Panther symbol, nobody picked up on the attempt to link the murders to the Black Panthers, which meant Bobby Bosale would stay in jail, and the race war wouldn't start. Charles decided they needed to try again, immediately.

• 31:05Vanessa Richardson?

  He sent the group out again the following night, and this time, Charles went with them. In order to trigger his race war, Charles wanted to keep going after wealthy white people, so he decided to head to the upper-middle-class neighborhood of Los Feliz. Charles had partied at a house there a few times, so that's where the group went. When they got there, Charles noticed the place next door. It was pretty nice, and Charles spotted an older man sleeping inside on his couch. His name was Lino La Bianca. Charles had his followers break in.

• 31:45Vanessa Richardson?

  Then, they killed Lino and his wife, Rosemary, in the same violent fashion as their other victims. After the bodies were discovered, the murders were linked to the victims at Cielo Drive, but the attempted connection to the Black Panthers went unnoticed once again. There was no denying it. Charles' plan was a failure, and eight innocent people had paid for it with their lives.

• 32:16Vanessa Richardson?

  But Charles didn't spin it that way to the family. He used all the press coverage as proof that it was a success. The true apocalypse might not happen immediately, but the process had begun. That meant it was time to get out of town. The family packed their things, and in early September, he and over two dozen followers drove north to Barker Ranch out in Death Valley. To keep the helter-skelter story alive, Charles sent his followers out into the desert. Their job was to go on foot to look for the entrance to the underground city of gold. For the time being, the family was still devoted to Charles,

• 33:00Vanessa Richardson?

  though it was split between true believers and those who were just too tired from searching the desert to question him.

• 33:08Tristin Engels?

  I think at this point, we really need to start exploring the impact of trauma on his followers. He recruited people who already had pre-existing familial trauma. This is well documented in their own interviews on the matter. Most of them lacked family or family support. They had come from dysfunctional homes, and the majority of them were women who were quite oppressed in that time. Now they are experiencing varying degrees of witnessed and experienced violence, coercion, and some of his followers have even since admitted to having been sexually assaulted during their time with the Manson family. And when it comes to trauma reactions, many people are aware

• 33:50Tristin Engels?

  of the fight, flight, and freeze response, but very few are aware of the lesser-known response known as fawning. And that was certainly not something that was identified back then. Fawning is a coping mechanism that is usually developed in childhood and predominantly experienced by women due to societal norms and pressures. It's a series of people-pleasing behaviors that are used to avoid conflict and any perceived danger. People who experience fawning are overly agreeable. They have difficulty saying no or setting boundaries. They are overly reliant on others, and they do not know how to prioritize their own needs over another person's. All of these behaviors

• 34:35Tristin Engels?

  are done out of fear or conflict or disapproval and to appease their aggressor. They are no doubt living in fear of Charlie, fear of being caught, fear of being retaliated against by the Black Panthers or others, and of this impending doom of an apocalypse that they themselves have started. And I think it's important to consider that their loyalty has also become a form of psychological and physical survival.

• 35:05Vanessa Richardson?

  Does it seem like Charles' followers felt like they had no other choice? Or was there some glimmer of hope that his prophecy could still be true?

• 35:14Tristin Engels?

  I think it's very likely that it's a combination of both of those things. But given all the trauma that they have experienced and continue to experience, the only real way for them to see what is happening clearly is to remove themselves from the situation and place themselves into a safe one. But even then, that will take a lot of time for them to process first, to realize what's really going on.

• 35:41Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, naturally, the city of gold was nowhere to be found. And surviving in the middle of the desert was a lot harder than scrounging for food around the city. Many of his followers remained fiercely loyal, but Charles finally started to lose his grip on some of them. People started slipping away in the middle of the night, risking the difficult walk into the nearest town in order to escape. And even though the desert was isolated, it wasn't empty. Locals took notice of the strange things going on at the family's new ranch. Eventually, the police started poking around and realized that Charles and his followers were driving stolen cars.

• 36:25Vanessa Richardson?

  On October 10, 1969, the authorities raided the Manson family's ranch and took most of them into custody. Charles wasn't home at the time. He was down in LA trying to round up some food. But when he came back to Death Valley a couple days later, he was arrested too. Charles had gotten out of scrapes with the law before, but there was no talking his way out of this one. Some of the defectors were eager to tell the police about the murders and that Charles had ordered them to do it. After some questioning, the police realized the leather cord Charles used as a belt had belonged to Lino La Bianca.

• 37:08Vanessa Richardson?

  The pieces fell into place from there. On December 9, 1969, he was charged with murder in what was being referred to as the Tate and La Bianca killings. All four of the family members involved in the crimes were charged as well. Charles finally had what he'd always wanted. Fame. Stories about him were plastered over every newspaper. Anytime he entered a courtroom, hordes of onlookers were there to see him. The more people learned about Charles, the more fascinated they became. It just seemed inconceivable that such a diminutive, unassuming guy could be capable of such atrocities.

• 37:53Vanessa Richardson?

  Not only that, he somehow got other people to do them for him. The question was, who would be punished for it?

• 38:10Vanessa Richardson?

  In December 1969, Charles Manson and his followers were charged with murder. The trial began a little over six months later, in June 1970. The whole thing was a huge spectacle, not just for the murders, but for the people accused of committing them. People couldn't understand what made Charles so special that his followers would kill for him.

• 38:37Tristin Engels?

  So we've already talked about how fear, how the abuse cycle, how grooming, substance dependence and trauma really played a role into why he had this following and why they may have been willing to do this for him. But I also think that people have a hard time understanding that because they don't understand the complexity of who Charles is and the environment he created to get to that level of devotion. Everyone from the outside looking in is seeing it rationally. They are seeing a man who is not rational and wondering how someone as seemingly unwell as him could be so persuasive of others. But they haven't been isolated from their loved ones.

• 39:22Tristin Engels?

  They haven't been living in survival mode for years, so it's hard to really grasp this. Manson has been learning to control people since he was a child. He spent more than half of his life in institutions, and this is how he perfected his ability to control others. In fact, a former colleague of mine from the Department of Corrections here in California... They actually did work at the institution where Manson was held. And they had told me that he was so persuasive. He had to be housed on the top tier of his unit at the very back end. So that no one would have to walk past his cell.

• 40:03Tristin Engels?

  He was so persuasive that he was successful in smuggling in drugs more than once during his incarceration, which means he had help twice. Whether he was convincing enough to get people to assist on the outside or employees on the inside or both. But I think it's likely both, given his fan base and how very little the Department of Corrections wanted him interacting with other incarcerated individuals and staff alike. The institution had to take precautions to prevent him from influencing others for the safety and security of the institution and everyone in it. All that to say, he knew how to identify a person's insecurities and vulnerabilities,

• 40:47Tristin Engels?

  exploit them, instill fear and gain control through manipulation, drug dependence and abuse.

• 40:56Vanessa Richardson?

  It seemed like everyone was paying attention to the Manson trial. The trial was so captivating, it even caught the attention of President Richard Nixon. He was so invested, he made comments about it during a speech on August 3rd, 1970.

• 41:12Tristin Engels?

  Which Charles surely loved, having the president speak about you on national television was as close to Beatlemania as he was ever going to get.

• 41:20Vanessa Richardson?

  Oh yeah, no doubt. It certainly seemed like everyone wanted to weigh in on the Manson trial, which was why the judge had the jury sequestered, so they wouldn't be influenced by any more media coverage or presidential speeches. There was a lot to consider, especially given the nature of the charges against Charles. Along with conspiracy to commit murder, he was charged with the murders themselves, which was hard to prove when he didn't lay a hand on any of the victims. And his followers were definitely willing to take the fall for him. In fact, three of them weren't allowed to testify for that very reason. Their lawyers likely didn't want them to take all the blame while Charles got away scot-free.

• 42:07Vanessa Richardson?

  In the end, the jury didn't either. When they reached their verdict on January 25th, 1971, Charles was found guilty, along with the three followers who'd committed the murders on his behalf. But Charles wasn't ready to give up, not by a long shot.

• 42:30Vanessa Richardson?

  There was still a lot at stake. The trial was now in the penalty phase, which meant guilt and innocence were no longer in question. It was time to determine punishment. And the defendants were facing the death penalty. Charles and his followers were all free to plead their cases for a lesser sentence. It was a pivotal moment, the last chance for the Manson family to turn on their leader. If they argued that he'd brainwashed them or made them do it, they might be able to save their lives. Instead, they did exactly what Charles wanted and chose to sacrifice themselves.

• 43:14Vanessa Richardson?

  And it wasn't just Charles' co-defendants speaking up for him either. At least eight members of the Manson family, who weren't involved in the murders, came to his defense. They all claimed he had nothing to do with the murders.

• 43:29Tristin Engels?

  I'm glad you mentioned "brainwashing" in here, because I think it's really time to highlight that concept. And for anyone who's not really familiar, "brainwashing" is the systematic effort to persuade a non-believer to accept a certain allegiance, command, or doctrine. And it's designed to psychologically manipulate human thought or action against the desire, the will, or the knowledge of the individual. The fact that this has been done systematically over a very long period of time makes it unsurprising to me that his followers maintain their support of him. And not simply because of the "brainwashing", but because, technically speaking, he did not lay a hand on anybody.

• 44:14Tristin Engels?

  They did it, right? But for- For anyone who is brainwashed, for them to undo the effects of that, they need to deprogram it. And this is not something that comes fast. It takes time, and that time will vary based on the individual. But it takes intensive, long-term psychotherapy, psychoeducation regarding what coercive control is and what boundaries are. Medication is warranted in some instances to help manage the intensity of anxiety or depression symptoms associated with that deprogramming. And they need to be able to rebuild their own self-esteem. And this can take years for some people.

• 44:56Tristin Engels?

  And at this point, none of his followers have even started the deprogramming process, let alone had gained insight into the fact that they'd been brainwashed.

• 45:09Vanessa Richardson?

  And in the end, their devotion didn't really matter. The jury had already determined that Charles was guilty, and nothing they heard from Charles' followers changed their minds. When they were sent to deliberate on March 26, 1971, it only took them a few hours to come to a decision. All the defendants were sentenced to death.

• 45:40Vanessa Richardson?

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• 46:25Vanessa Richardson?

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• 47:10Vanessa Richardson?

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• 47:54Vanessa Richardson?

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• 48:08Vanessa Richardson?

  Even with Charles behind bars, the world didn't forget about him. He received hundreds of letters a day. They contained all sorts of messages, admiration and love, but also death threats. For someone on death row, that wasn't exactly something to worry about. But about a year later, on February 18th, 1972, the state of California abolished the death penalty and Charles' situation suddenly changed. He and his followers' sentences were all reduced to life in prison.

• 48:46Vanessa Richardson?

  Not only that, under California law, he would be granted a parole hearing in seven years, which meant he had a chance of becoming a free man again, if he could survive that long. Charles' fellow inmates didn't like how much attention he got. He was moved around different facilities for his own safety, eventually ending up at the notorious San Quentin Prison, north of San Francisco. He spent a lot of time in isolation, away from the general population. But just because Charles was out of sight, didn't mean he was out of mind.

• 49:26Vanessa Richardson?

  In 1974, the lead prosecutor on his case, Vincent Bugliosi, published a book about Charles called Helter Skelter. It was a massive hit, and so was the TV miniseries it inspired. All of a sudden, Charles wasn't just a notorious criminal, he was a bona fide celebrity.

• 49:47Tristin Engels?

  Just what he wants. Well, when we continue to explore what made Charles so fascinating, we would be remiss to not also consider the era that this happened in as well. It was the peak of the counterculture movement, where hippies were rejecting mainstream values and were wanting to embrace peace and free love and psychedelic drugs, which is exactly what Manson and his family appeared to be doing. And this was also a time of cultural and political change, and music was at this epicenter of a lot of that, because it really shaped these decades. And Charles Manson not only convinced people to follow him, masquerading as a form of

• 50:30Tristin Engels?

  a guru, but as you shared already, he also managed to become friends with Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys, who once referred to Manson as "the wizard." If we recall from the story, Dennis even opened up his home to Manson and Manson's family, and he connected him to other industry people, including Neil Young and Terry Melcher, who I don't think we mentioned, was the son of Doris Day, and obviously a very high producer at Columbia Records. So if all of these highly influential people believed Charles was a likable and talented individual, that can be hard to reconcile with the individual that the public got to know throughout the trials.

• 51:14Tristin Engels?

  Even actress Angela Lansbury's daughter, Deirdre, had fallen victim to Charles Manson. So from the outside looking in, a known-name ex-convict was able to befriend and influence some of the most influential people of that era. And seeing this can certainly fracture a person's false sense of security. And then naturally, they want to understand, how did this happen? But more importantly, how can I feel confident that it would never happen to me? And the irony is, when you're being brainwashed, you lack the insight to see that as it's happening.

• 51:51Vanessa Richardson?

  Whatever it was that made people so interested in Charles, he was firmly in the zeitgeist and has remained there ever since. And he also spent the rest of his life in prison. He knew just as well as anyone that there was no chance he'd be released on parole. It's been a half-century since the Manson family murders. Even though Charles has been dead since 2017, he continues to have a powerful grip on our imaginations. From TV shows like Mindhunter, or movies like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, people can't help but be fascinated by him, or try to understand the crimes he committed.

• 52:35Vanessa Richardson?

  But that's easier said than done. The Manson murders were violent, random, and indescribably tragic. Innocent people lost their lives because of his so-called prophecy, which was nothing more than the ravings of a madman.

• 52:55Vanessa Richardson?

  A couple months after Charles's trial ended in the 1970s, John Lennon was asked for his thoughts on the Manson murders, especially since they were inspired by his song, "Helter Skelter." Lennon was baffled by the whole thing. He didn't understand why Charles thought the song predicted some kind of apocalyptic race war. In fact, he didn't understand how Charles got anything from it at all. According to Lennon, the lyrics of "Helter Skelter" were totally meaningless. And in the end, maybe Charles Manson was too.

• 53:48Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another murderer.

• 53:55Tristin Engels?

  Killer Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at Crime House. And don't forget to rate, review, and follow Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.

• 54:16Vanessa Richardson?

  And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Killer Minds ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting bonus content. Killer Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Killer Minds team: Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Laurie Marinelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Sarah Kamp, and Sheila Patterson. Of the many sources we used when researching this episode, the one we found the most credible and helpful

• 55:00Vanessa Richardson?

  was "The Life and Times of Charles Manson" by Jeff Gwynn. Thank you for listening.

• 55:09Vanessa Richardson?

  If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.