Neetcode: Google vs Amazon, Programming Interviews, Quitting Big Tech

Neetcode is the most well-known coding interview prep creator with over 1M+ subs on YouTube. I interviewed him about the latest on coding interviews, his career at Amazon vs Google, and what it was like quitting big tech to do his own thing. • My ergonomic keyboard project I mentioned, you can follow along here: https://read.compose.llc/ • The Kickstarter page for it: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ryanlpeterman/compose-simple-ergonomics-beautifully-done Podcast links: • YouTube: https://youtu.be/K15dND_Kfvg • Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-peterman-pod/id1777363835 • Transcript: https://www.developing.dev/p/neetcode-google-vs-amazon-programming Thank you to this episode's sponsor for supporting my work: • WorkOS: makes your app Enterprise Ready with easy to use APIs to add SSO, SCIM, RBAC, and more in just a few lines of code, check them out at https://workos.com/ Timestamps: (00:00) Intro (00:33) Quitting Amazon after 2 months (06:00) Testing Neetcode on Leetcode (12:57) Memorizing vs deriving solutions and intelligence (16:13) The story behind Neetcode (22:24) Getting a job at Google (27:47) How it was quitting big tech (29:38) What he hated most about Google (30:52) Top technical book recommendation (32:34) Advice for his younger self (33:46) Outro Where to find Neetcode: • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/navdeep-singh-3aaa14161/ • Twitter/X: https://x.com/neetcode1 • His website: https://neetcode.io/ • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@NeetCodeIO • GitHub: https://github.com/neetcode-gh • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/neetcodeio/ • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@neetcode.io • Discord: https://discord.gg/ddjKRXPqtk Where to find Ryan: • Newsletter: https://www.developing.dev/ • X/Twitter: https://x.com/ryanlpeterman • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanlpeterman/ • Threads: https://www.threads.com/@ryanlpeterman • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ryanlpeterman • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ryanlpeterman Referenced in this episode: • Neetcode's "Maybe Some People Should Just Give Up" video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsoEipuwXiI • Designing Data-Intensive Applications: https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Data-Intensive-Applications-Reliable-Maintainable/dp/B08VL1BLHB

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Anyway, I'll stop there before I do more reputational damage.

• 0:04Ryan Peterman?

  This is Lee Code. He's the most well-known creator teaching coding interview prep. And I asked him all about Lee Code and his career story at Google and Amazon. Where does that place you in the percentile of all elos?

• 0:17Speaker 00

  I don't know how people are gonna feel about this.

• 0:20Ryan Peterman?

  How's your experience quitting Google and doing your own thing full-time?

• 0:24Speaker 00

  I don't know if I should say this, but it's been like seven years at this point.

• 0:28Ryan Peterman?

  Do you ever miss Google?

• 0:29Speaker 00

  A lot. Like, I miss-

• 0:31Ryan Peterman?

  Here's the full episode.

• 0:36Ryan Peterman?

  You ended up unemployed. What was going on at the time?

• 0:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a funny story, I guess now in hindsight, but basically, like, I started working. I got my first full-time offer at Amazon. I'd heard it was like, you know, like, a pretty tough environment from like the online stuff, the things that you see on Reddit are blind. But for some reason, I just wasn't like nervous. I just thought like, okay, it'll be fine. And like, as much as I would use like the word intense, I think it was more so that it was like a culture shock for me, which is like, I was very like introverted and do like too many activities or extracurriculars. And then so being in a place where it's not really academic, it's like, there's a lot that goes into like having like a full-time job and like working with people and like all those other things.

• 1:23Speaker 00

  That was really, really tough for me. And so, among like other reasons, like Amazon was not like the ideal environment. In hindsight, I probably could have survived if I had to redo it, but I just didn't really know things at that point. And so, for whatever reason, I just decided to quit after like a couple of months. And it was just a really dumb decision because it's not like I had like a backup plan or I was like, like I was broke, like I couldn't afford to quit, but I still did it anyway. So it was just, I'm glad it worked out, but I wouldn't probably recommend it to most people.

• 1:54Ryan Peterman?

  What did you see at Amazon that made you want to quit so quickly?

• 1:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, um, so it was, like I said, a very intense environment, but I think many people have dealt with that. I think there's intense environments that are like, people are still happy, people are like trying to perform like at the top of their game. And it's like, kind of like a, almost like a sport, I guess, where people are super competitive and they want to do the best that they can. But there are other environments, I think, that are like super cutthroat and it's not people trying to do their best. It's like people, you can tell people are not like rooting for each other. Like people are, I wouldn't say they're trying to like screw each other over. I wasn't really there long enough to judge that. But you can tell people are not friendly. Like there were some like meetings, like icebreakers that we had.

• 2:40Speaker 00

  And like, nobody, like all, it was like 10 people, like five of us were like new grads. Literally, we all had joined within the first month. The other half were like super burnt out, experienced people like,

• 2:53Speaker 00

  like mid-level and seniors and stuff. And they were just like very unhappy. And that like spreads very quickly to the rest of the team. And like I said, like I think every other new grad on the team probably survived that experience. Like, I didn't really keep in touch with them. I don't think they probably got pipped or whatever. But it was clearly like, most people left that team, I think, like within a year. Like, I have them all added on LinkedIn, so they were not happy there either, I don't think.

• 3:19Ryan Peterman?

  What gave you the confidence to just quit your job so quickly?

• 3:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it was like a very uncharacteristic thing of me. I think I was like 22 and, like, it's so weird because right before I had started that job, I was like, I'm on top of the world. Like, I'm like, everything is going so well. Like, I have, like, I was, I was broke and now I have like a job and like, okay, it might be stressful, but like, I'll have it for the rest of my life. Or maybe I'll switch to another job. Like, it's so crazy, like how quickly. Like, I was like literally on the moon and it all just like plummeted overnight. Like, it was like my first day, my manager's like, okay, like, the team's a little burnt out, trying not to ask too many questions. And so I'm just like, okay, like, whoa, like, what's going on? And then like, it's like a horror movie. Like, it keeps getting worse and worse. But, yeah, anyways.

• 4:08Ryan Peterman?

  Did you have to do Lee Code to get that job?

• 4:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, the funny thing is, I don't know if I should say this, but it's been like seven years at this point. The Lee Code questions for Amazon were actually like surprisingly easy. People always say that you can cheat now. At that point, I don't remember the exact question. It was like some variation of twosome and questions that really weren't that difficult. They really grill you on the leadership principles, though. And I think it's important to be at least a little bit honest with that because I think like I lied for every single question for that. Like, because it's like a personality test. It's like, okay, if you're in this situation, what would you do? And I know what they're looking for. Like, they're looking for like the personality type who has like high agency. Like, they're not really scared. They're gonna like, they're gonna take risks and they're gonna just, you know, they're gonna show up and stuff.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  And so I gave answers like that, but that's really not my personality. It's like very like the opposite, where like I'm very risk averse and like, I try not to like mess things up. And like, I take initiative, but at Amazon, like they want like really high initiative where like you're on your first day, you're just like making decisions. So it took some like getting used to.

• 5:16Ryan Peterman?

  Well, I ask is when I, when I was doing recruitment, I remember, this is a long time ago. Amazon, they did some weird thing where they had like this group SAT at my college where they sat down hundreds of us and gave us these, it's a sequence of logic puzzles, basically. It would be something like, I mean, this makes it, this makes it sound really trivial, but it would be like a multiple choice. And be like, you know, A, B, C, D, colon, and then it'd be like, you know, E, F, G, blank. What's the remaining? It's just, you know, continue the pattern, kind of stuff.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  I think I had something like that, actually. It was like an online thing. It was like one section of it, though.

• 6:00Ryan Peterman?

  You said you weren't good at Lee Code to begin with. And, I mean, today, like, let's say, I don't know how practiced you are right now. If I gave you the hardest Lee Code hard, could you solve it no problem?

• 6:13Speaker 00

  Probably not. And I don't, I don't think I was ever actually that good. Like, because Lee Code is like such a big spectrum where it's like, as you get better, most people can't really tell the difference between like a good engineer and like a 10x engineer. And that's like the level, like, that most people I think see like Lee Code, where like, somebody who's really, really good at Lee Code hards, like, they're just indistinguishable. But there's like, there's other platforms, like Codeforces, I think is like the other big one, where it's like the distribution is really like known because you'll be like on the completely other end of like somebody else who's better than you. But you might be the same, like on the Lee Code spectrum as they are, but like on a different platform, it's much wider.

• 6:53Speaker 00

  But I guess to answer your question, um, yeah, I'm not, I'm like decent still, surprisingly. Like, if you do something for years, it's actually hard to forget it. And I just kept making videos for years, even when I didn't need to. So like, I'm pretty like practiced with like the core patterns. I could look at a problem and like tell you like what the solution might be, but it'd be harder to like actually like hand code it up, especially now that I feel like most people aren't like hand typing code anymore, including myself. So, yeah, it'd probably be tough.

• 7:22Ryan Peterman?

  What percent of like Lee Code mediums could you do right now? If I just tested you right now, say, you know, do this one or whatever.

• 7:29Speaker 00

  I mean, I'd be curious, but I don't, not to, not all of them for sure. I think for the vast majority of them, I could probably at least tell you like what the solution would be or like roughly like the pattern.

• 7:41Ryan Peterman?

  Do you want to do a Lee Code?

• 7:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, we can try it.

• 7:44Ryan Peterman?

  So I was genuinely curious to see how good he was at Lee Code. And so we actually did do an impromptu Lee Code whiteboarding session where I asked him nothing but Lee Code hards and he had no time to prepare. If you're curious to see how he did, I uploaded it to my YouTube channel separately because it didn't fit in the podcast. Anyways, back to the original conversation. You mentioned the Codeforces. I think they have an Elo system in that, right?

• 8:08Speaker 00

  Right.

• 8:09Ryan Peterman?

  This is my, my mental model is there's, there's Lee Code is actually just the beginning. And Lee Code Easies, you're just barely doing it. Lee Code mediums, you get jobs. Lee Code hards, you're a bit better. But there's, you can go past that many standard deviations into Codeforces. And so where, where do you think roughly, uh, someone who can pass interviews decently well? Let's say they can do Lee Code mediums pretty well. Where does that place you in the percentile of all elos, did you say?

• 8:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, so that's really-

• 8:46Speaker 00

  I guess kind of funny and I don't know how people are gonna feel about this because I've I talked to a lot of people and I've spoken to a lot of people over the last few years. And some people have the mentality that like if you want to get a job at big tech today, most of them are still doing some variation of like lead code. They think that they need to like be able to do the hardest questions like super hards. And if they failed their interview, it's just because they weren't able to do all the lead code hards and somebody else did. Unfortunately, that's not what usually happens. The people who are passing their interviews, it's not that like they're dumb, like they are competent and they're just as good as like anybody else. But most likely they were just asked a question that they were able to answer and the other person just wasn't.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  And I mean, that's provided you meet like some bar of like, okay, you kind of know like the core patterns that you'd be able to solve a question you've already seen before and stuff like that. So I think unfortunately, like the answer is like it's wider than you think. There isn't like an average. I think you could be pretty like low on that end and still pass interviews. You could be pretty high and fail some interviews, but if you're like really high, like probably you won't fail most of them because it's like a numbers game at that point. But I think the average is lower than a lot of people think. I think if you can solve like some lead code mediums, like a third of lead code mediums, you have a pretty good chance, I think, of like passing an interview.

• 10:10Ryan Peterman?

  One story that really showed me how big the gaps are is, uh, this was in college. Google hosted some event where they invited all these colleges to bring their, you know, a team to go and compete in this set of puzzles. And one of the rounds was just pure competitive programming. The other ones were like word association and some other things. But then the, the competitive programming one, my team was full of people that were all stacked in terms of getting jobs, like lead code was no problem for them. But these problems were so hard, there, I think there was like 13 and, and no one got any of them.

• 10:54Ryan Peterman?

  And then one of the guys on our team was, he was a little bit, he was much better than all of us. And he carried us and he did like three problems out of like the 13. But the crazy thing is there's another college there was Caltech. They, they did all 13 and they just destroyed us.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  Damn.

• 11:13Ryan Peterman?

  So like, you know, there are, there are levels to this stuff. It's, it's really crazy. So I interviewed someone who's a complexity theorist. I want to know, so clearly competitive programmers, that's above lead coding. Where is complexity theory in all, on all this stuff, right?

• 11:31Speaker 00

  I feel like to do something and to like learn it or to just do anything, the, the best way to do it is to like actually do it. And so like, if you're training like another skill, it doesn't really work it out like the same way. I guess to use like an analogy, even with like muscles, like I feel like, I could be wrong about this, but if you're doing like a leg press machine, it doesn't actually help you that much for your squat. Like you'd think it would because it's like the exact same muscle, but for some reason it actually doesn't. It'll make like a very small difference. And I think that's how a lot of life works. If you're like preparing like for competitive programming specifically, you'll get pretty good at that, but maybe like your communication will suck during like the actual interview or you'll miss something else. In my case, I did a lot of videos and I think that actually doesn't make you that much better

• 12:16Speaker 00

  at solving the problems at a certain point because it's more of a distraction. Because it's like, if you, if you take like four hours to make a video, most of that is spent making the video and trying to understand like somebody else's perspective rather than making yourself better. So if I had to guess, I don't think like the complexity theorists are probably like as good under like time constraints and like typing as fast as they can. But maybe for like really like hard problems, they could probably like, I don't know, they've probably just seen way more stuff so they can kind of like recall something like, okay, like maybe this, this like algorithm or this technique will work on this problem or something. Because a lot of them get like really, really elaborate at that level where you like need like some really crazy obscure algorithm you couldn't have possibly heard of.

• 12:57Ryan Peterman?

  There's this idea, I think this was true throughout when I was learning math and you know, various things in school. This is this idea of like deriving something when you need it and then memorization. In this hierarchy, deriving it is the true intelligence. That's where you're really, you know, you, you come up into the math that you don't know the formulas, but you're, you're good with math and you can figure it out on the fly. What percent of performance in lead code do you think is, is just people memorizing the solutions versus, you know, deriving things when they hear the, the question?

• 13:38Speaker 00

  If I had to guess, and even just from like speaking with people, I'd say like at least 90% is people just kind of memorizing one way or another, which I think is fine. Because if you look at like the entire problem of like interview preparation, there's a lot to cover. And you just can't like possibly do it yourself. But the other thing I will say is that you can't just memorize. You do have to like, and this is what makes it really hard because you have to cover a lot of stuff. But at the same time, you have to like build at least some of the skills to like understand what's going on. So you're not just like blindly memorizing or you're not like asking yourself, okay, should I do like DFS or BFS? You should still have like some like high level understanding and that's really hard, I think.

• 14:21Speaker 00

  Like actually like covering things in like a smart way.

• 14:25Ryan Peterman?

  I guess since we're talking about this memorization versus deriving, and you've taught so many people lead code, is lead code an accurate assessment of intelligence?

• 14:36Speaker 00

  I think definitely not. I think there's components to it. I think like is the SAT like a sign of intelligence? I think not really, but it's a sign of like a lot of things that correlate with it. And it like some subset of it surely isn't intelligence because it's not like a dog could like pass those tests or like do a lead code problem or something. So like, yeah, but I think it's, I don't know. I think people get like caught up on that because then they've like, they see some people doing well and some people aren't. And they're like, well, it just must be intelligence or something else. Like maybe partially, but I think that's, it's not just that, like I'm just saying this just to say it, but I actually believe it now, like after meeting so many people and like seeing so much stuff. And I'm sure you've seen so many like high performing people and you've spoken to a lot of like guests and stuff.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  I feel like the, the number one thing, the, the number one bottleneck is usually like some level of enjoyment or passion or work ethic or just something of that nature where like somebody keeps doing something. Because I don't think I really did anything that special. All I did was just made a lot of lead code videos when most people wouldn't have been willing to do that or just not had the time to do that. And I think that's what most things boil down to, like a lot of the like really smart people that you have on the podcasts. I think they just enjoyed what they did and then just kept doing it and then built their life around that. And then it just becomes that. And I think the people usually in terms of lead code, they're usually people that either did a lot of math or programming or some kind of like math club when they were kids.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  Uh, like to get to a certain level, like the code forces level and stuff, you just have to have done that since you were a kid. Like if you're a chess player, like you have to just start early.

• 16:13Ryan Peterman?

  What kept you making these lead code videos for so long? Because you have hundreds of them.

• 16:19Speaker 00

  The one thing I guess I didn't like about school, and for the most part I liked school, but I always thought that like the computer science classes especially, especially like every time we would get to a part where it's like starting to get really interesting, like whether it's databases or like ML or something else. Like you get to the end of the class and you do like your random project or whatever. And then you, you kind of know like the core stuff of that, that class. And then that's the part where I want to like go 10 times deeper. I just want to like do one thing and then do it really, really well. I think that's why I wasn't like, uh, in terms of like being the best developer I could be. I think I'm better at like other things than, than that. And, um, I, I think, I think when I got to lead code, I just like enjoyed that.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  And I felt productive as I was doing it, even though like it, it really wasn't on paper. I was like making a video, getting like 50 views and I was enjoying that. But it wasn't like I was ever gonna like make a living off of this or anything. So I just kept doing it just because I was like stubborn and I enjoyed it. And I was, I thought I was like helping people as well, so I just stuck with it.

• 17:23Ryan Peterman?

  You had this one video, I remember it was like, maybe some people should just give up. Or what was that the, that was the title, right? Yeah, it was like, maybe some people should just give up. And yeah, I guess a question to you is, do you think that anyone could be good at lead code? Are some people inherently not able to do it?

• 17:42Speaker 00

  I think the vast majority of people, especially anybody who like is a programmer and likes programming. I, I think they could get to that point. I think the, I mean, they might feel like they're not smart enough and like they might feel that like many steps along the way. And I think that'll probably like burn them out before they can like get to that point. Because it's not like any, everyone wants to do everything. Like if they, if they want to like pass their interviews or for whatever reason they need to, I think they could probably do that. But, um, I think most people will find like that there are other, like, most people decide for whatever reason that there are better ways to spend their time. Like there, most people will start the lead code grind and then give up. They're like, okay, screw this, like I'm gonna get a job another way. I'm gonna network. Like I'm not, I'm not about to like do a 300 lead code problems.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  And that's perfectly fine, I think, but yeah.

• 18:29Ryan Peterman?

  So when you say that maybe some people should just give up, what's your, your take on?

• 18:34Speaker 00

  Okay, um.

• 18:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I I don't like I don't recommend anybody to give up. I really don't. I swear. I like it for me. Like, I want the opposite. I really do. Like, I want people to like push themselves and to be like the best that they can be. And I don't know. I guess it's just that, like, the the reason I made that video, I guess, is like, there's a certain attitude that I feel like it just really like turns you off. Like, sometimes you'll see it in school, especially like early school, where like half the class like is paying attention and half the class just doesn't really care. And that's fine. Um, but it's like, I don't know. It's like the more seriously you take something and you spend like a bunch of time like making this video, explaining all these parts, and somebody asks you a question that like you know they could have answered.

• 19:22Speaker 00

  It just makes me like disappointed. It just makes me think like, like, I know you're better than this. Like, like, you can, like, you you can figure it out yourself. Like, you can, like, you're smarter. Like, you're too smart to like give up that early. Like, that's like how I feel. But obviously, like, the words that I said and like, when I like say it a certain way, like, I recognize that people aren't going to interpret it that way. So I have to live with that. But I think I had a lot of people. I'd say like ninety five percent of people actually like liked that video, like clicked like on that video, which was surprising to me. Most people that like reached out or commented, they said that, hey, like, I needed to hear this. This was like a way wake up call.

• 19:58Speaker 00

  And I had somebody like message me before they're like Microsoft intern interview and they're like, hey, like, I really needed this. Like, I'm gonna lock in for the next like couple of weeks. And I was like, okay, like, I guess I'll leave that video up because at least somebody got something out of it. But yeah.

• 20:12Ryan Peterman?

  I see. So the the energy in that is, um, it's like a disappointed teacher.

• 20:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:19Ryan Peterman?

  Disappointed.

• 20:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, because why would I make videos that are teaching people and then on the same side, like, tell people that they should give up and not do this? Like, it it doesn't make sense. And yeah, so like I said, I can live with like what I said. It wasn't the nicest thing. If I could do it over again, probably whatever. I think like, the only thing I said in that that video, though, I think that was actually offensive, is that I can't believe somebody would ask me this dumb. And I said another word after that, and I said, question. That's that's the literally the worst thing I said. I didn't make it personal with that person. I didn't call anybody like not smart enough or anything. But yeah, anyway, I'll stop. I'll stop there before I like do more reputational damage.

• 21:00Ryan Peterman?

  When when you, when you were recording this, uh, you know, video, because well, I I like the video, by the way. But when I saw the packaging and, you know, it was like this unhinged thing that you had dropped. Were you? Were you worried at all on your side? Because you you gotta record it, watch it over and click send, right? So.

• 21:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I watched that video a couple of times, actually, because I was like, am I sure? But like, sometimes I'm just like, I think when I made that video, if I could like somehow find a way to harness that energy, I'd have so many viral videos by now, but I really can't. Like, I'll just like every like few months, I'll just get like mad about something and just like make a rant video. But I really wasn't planning it. Like, that video, like, when I when I look back at it, it was just a really long, like, ramble where I went off on like five different tangents. So make my point. I'm like, you know, if I was trying to make a viral video, this could be a little bit like better.

• 21:54Ryan Peterman?

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• 22:32Ryan Peterman?

  You can check them out at workos.com to learn more and get started. And I appreciate them for supporting my work and sponsoring this podcast. In your career path, I mean, you you went to Amazon, you you instantly quit and you started making these videos, right? You you keep creating these videos and later you get your, you know, your quote unquote dream job.

• 22:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. So when I was making the videos, I was hoping that somebody would like give me a job interview at some point and that I'd like ace it. It took a long time. It took like almost a year. And then it just happened to be Google. I was like, you know, I kind of would have actually preferred somebody else so that the interview would be a little bit easier. But I was like, okay, well, like, I guess, like, here goes. And the interview itself, I wasn't very nervous for for whatever reason. I guess I just prepared so much. But, um, and then getting into Google, pretty much like you said, it was like my dream job. I think a lot of people, like young college students, they see like a tech company like that. And like, once you're in, like, you feel like, you know, you've made it. And that's definitely how I felt. And I was making like pretty good money. I was up in here in Seattle.

• 23:36Speaker 00

  And, um, like, everything was going well. Like, my team was really nice. It was kind of the opposite of Amazon, where like everybody is like super friendly and like willing to help. And the work was, I would say, fine, like, it was technical at least, but it wasn't the most interesting. It was a lot of like processes and bureaucracies. So that was kind of boring. Um, but, um, then I got to a point where I felt like I could actually like go full time into like the YouTube neat code thing. And, um, that was pretty risk averse. Like, I probably could have done it actually a lot sooner. And, um, yeah, I I really enjoyed my time at Google, but it was just something that I I felt like I enjoyed like algorithms and stuff more.

• 24:19Speaker 00

  And it was an opportunity that wasn't gonna like be there forever. So I just wanted to take it. But I could have definitely seen myself working in big tech my whole life. A lot of people I talked to, they don't feel that way. A lot of people are like, I'm just here like until I don't have to be here anymore for how many ever years that is. Um, but for me, I was pretty happy just like doing something technical my whole life.

• 24:40Ryan Peterman?

  You mentioned that some, you know, some like Google's interviews maybe were a certain level of hardness in lead code. If you were to come up with a tier list of like the just purely lead code, so purely, uh, which companies ask the hardest lead code questions? And if you pass that bar, you must be pretty great at lead code. What's your tier list?

• 25:02Speaker 00

  I think the labs ask pretty like tough questions these days, like OpenAI and Anthropic, but they're not like exactly like the lead codes, traditional lead code format. They're a lot different. But yeah, I think like the it usually just comes down to like the supply and demand, like how many people are trying to get into that company and like how like, how many roles does that company actually try to fill? I I feel like the smaller companies are usually harder.

• 25:25Ryan Peterman?

  You said OpenAI and Anthropic's interview process is a little different. How does OpenAI and Anthropic do their coding interviews?

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've heard a lot of mixed things. Like recently, what I've heard is that definitely like knowledge of data structures and algorithms will be pretty helpful. Like, it's pretty hard to get through it without that. But it's it's definitely not like a lead code interview is what they would say. It's that like there might be components of like an algorithm or like multiple files or like you're just given like a problem and you kind of have to like reason through it. Some of them mentioned that like they have AI access, but I I think for Anthropic, it's not. And I think the most recent person I asked for OpenAI also said that they don't have AI access, which is really interesting to me. I think like interviews are just kind of really random lately. I'm trying to figure out like where this is going.

• 26:15Speaker 00

  But it it's really impossible. Like, I thought it was gonna be AI assisted, but like all these companies are still like figuring it out as they go. So it's it's been interesting to watch.

• 26:25Ryan Peterman?

  You went to Google and you liked it, but it sounds like you you left because you wanted to pursue full time. Like, it wasn't like you were running from something. You were going towards lead code and content creation. I I remember back in the day, you were faceless. Were you nervous at all to post your your face?

• 26:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, it's it's kind of funny, I guess, because it's been six years now since I like made the YouTube channel. And for the first three years, I think I was faceless. And like roughly three years ago, this month, I think, is when I did it. And so now I've had like half and half. And I think, um, I I think it's been great because I've gotten to like actually be like a person. And after I did that, I had a lot of people like reach out to me. They're like, hey, like, I didn't know, like, you're the guy who did that. Like, hey, like, let me know if you're ever in town, blah, blah, blah. And um, I I guess it was cool to like actually like meet people and I don't know, just meet people, I guess, that you can like relate to, like content creators, like we met as well. Yeah, I mean, so there's a part of me, I guess, that kind of liked the faceless version as well, because you just get to be like really introverted and just like not have to

• 27:29Speaker 00

  like ever deal with people. But people are pretty nice to me and I I don't have any regrets about that. Once in a while, like, I'll be out and somebody will like recognize me. And if I'm with a friend, it's like, you can kind of like show off or act like you're a big deal. But for the most part, I don't know. I just, yeah, it's been fun meeting like other nerds and stuff.

• 27:47Ryan Peterman?

  How's your experience quitting Google and doing your own thing full time?

• 27:52Speaker 00

  I I think in my case, um, I really enjoyed what I was doing, so it was a lot easier for me. I have a lot of people reach out that like they don't really enjoy their jobs, but they don't really know what else they want to do either. I think that's a lot harder. Um, for me, it was just that I liked algorithms and doing things around that, whether it was like building my site or making YouTube videos. And I just kind of leaned into that. And that's been working out for the past few years. And more recently, I've been trying to like expand into other areas and stuff. But I guess what I've learned is that, like, I I guess passion really matters. And it's like, if you're passionate about one thing, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll be passionate about everything. But

• 28:32Speaker 00

  um, yeah, I think it's, I I've definitely had no regrets. I think it's been a success for the most part. Um, but yeah, it's not, it's not like perfect. I wouldn't reckon necessarily recommend like every person out there needs to quit their job or do their own side hustle or whatever. I don't like buy into a lot of that stuff.

• 28:51Ryan Peterman?

  Do you ever miss Google?

• 28:53Speaker 00

  A lot. Like, I miss, like, I can afford food now, but I still miss the free food for some reason. I don't know if you had that experience because they really like make it like in a way that you'd miss it if you weren't there. Like especially the free coffee and stuff because I'd always get like a latte. Um, but anyways, but um, yeah, I miss, um, I mean, the one thing I miss is the culture. Because I could like add my neat code and like I could hire a bunch of people and kind of create my own culture. And it's really nice that you have like the freedom to do that, but I, I'm not really like a culture builder. I'm more of like a person that just does things or solves problems or whatever. Like, I don't consider myself a manager, but I've had to do that a lot the last couple of years. And it's, it's been a learning experience.

• 29:38Ryan Peterman?

  You mentioned what you miss about Google, but what is it that you hated most about working at Google?

• 29:44Speaker 00

  That's a good question. I think it's just really slow. Like urgency and like speed doesn't seem to matter, which is fine. I guess the reason that's a problem because some people would see that and think like, oh, it's like a work-life balance paradise. You can kind of just chill and do whatever you want, which is, which is true because there, there's that side to it. But the other side is that like, if you're ambitious or you're trying to like get your project delivered sooner, or you're trying to get promoted or just anything, you're going to be fighting against like all that like work-life balance culture. Because you're trying to get somebody else to do something and like, you don't want to like put too much pressure on them. You don't want to like mess with their work-life balance because then they're going to mess with yours and like, yeah, it was just really slow.

• 30:25Speaker 00

  If you're a technical person, you, you want to be there because they're not going to probably at Google like cut too many corners. But sometimes you wish they would because it just goes so slow and like, like they prioritize processes over actually like making it, like an impact for like a customer or like getting a project delivered. It's just like, yeah, they care too much. I think about like what the engineers think and like what they feel rather than like actually trying to serve like customers. So it's like the opposite of Amazon, I'd say in that respect.

• 30:52Ryan Peterman?

  What's the top technical book recommendation for software engineers? Do you have any thoughts on that?

• 30:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I guess I really liked DDIA, Designing Data Intensive Applications. I, I just spoke with somebody a month ago and they were telling me that they, they did read through it, but for them, like most of it didn't really stick. And I think that's fair. Actually, I think for most people it wouldn't stick. But I think my brain is just kind of like wired a different way where like, rather than like, I think most people learn by like getting an introduction to like a high level topic. And then like digging deeper into that. But for me, I like understanding like the actual like building blocks of something. And that'll like help me understand like the higher level stuff. So like, for example, like why did like data warehouses use like a completely different query engine than like our actual transactional database? I mean, most people don't need to know and it doesn't really matter most of the time.

• 31:42Speaker 00

  So you probably won't remember, like even if you did learn it, but like there happens to be like the way the data is actually assembled. And for certain query patterns, blah, blah, blah, like these things do matter. And like, the, the reason I say it's a good book, uh, based on that, isn't because like you'll necessarily take those exact details and then apply, uh, apply them to like some problem. But it like changes the way your brain thinks about things, like the same way learning algorithms will help you think about things differently. Understanding like just general like computer science problems and distributed systems and all that stuff. Uh, for me at least, like I noticed a lot of like parallels and stuff. Like when I'm reading DDIA, practically every single chapter, I can like find at least like a few leaked code problems that like can like,

• 32:24Speaker 00

  help explain like certain things or like help me understand certain things. And so in that way, it's been useful for me, but I, I wouldn't necessarily say for everybody it would be.

• 32:34Ryan Peterman?

  Last question is if you go back to your younger self, when you just graduated college and give yourself some advice, what would you say?

• 32:42Speaker 00

  Definitely focus a little bit more on what you enjoy because my priority at that point was just trying to get like some job that I would reasonably enjoy. Um, and I thought like anything technical will be fine. And then so like as I was doing computer science, I started learning a lot about like web development because I saw people talking about that online and learning React. But I think probably my career would have been just as well, if not better, had I done something like really random and obscure, like operating systems or databases or something, which I would have enjoyed a lot more. And, uh, I think I probably would have been better at it than I was at web development, even though people say like web dev or just like building apps is like the easy thing. I feel like it's not really easy if it's like boring to you. And to me, it was pretty boring.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  So, um, yeah, like people say the same thing about leaked code, like it's hard, but for me it was, I guess, easy because I just enjoyed it. So yeah, I'd say, yeah, I think a lot of people are asking that question now. And so I would just say that like, try to enjoy it at least a little bit.

• 33:42Ryan Peterman?

  Awesome. Well, thanks so much for your time. You really appreciate it.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, appreciate it. Yeah.

• 33:46Ryan Peterman?

  Hey, thank you for watching this podcast. If you liked it and you want to see the show grow, please support with a comment or a like. Also, if you have any recommendations for people you want me to bring on, please drop a comment. Guests like Barbara Liskoff, Mike Stonebreaker, Mark Booker. These were all people that I brought on because someone left a comment. On another note, aside from the podcast, I'm working on building the ergonomic keyboard that I wish existed. Here's a glance at the prototype. It's a split keyboard. So there's two sides. Um, this is in the case, but yeah, we launched on Kickstarter and we hit our goal within eight hours of launching. I really appreciate it if you were one of the people who grabbed one of the early units. Um, we're now working on the long journey of building the tooling now.

• 34:30Ryan Peterman?

  And so if you still want to pick one up, I've left the late pledges open on Kickstarter. So you can grab one there. I'll put a link in the description. Thank you again for watching the podcast and I'll see you in the next episode.