Pod Insights Let's Talk About Myths, Baby! | Greek Mythology & the Ancient Mediterranean What Does it Mean to Rebel? (Ancient) Resistance to Imperial Violence About this episode Revisiting the story of Europa of Tyre alongside the true story of the siege of Milos. Submit to the quarterly Q&A at mythsbaby.com/questions http://mythsbaby.com/questions and get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby
CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing.
Sources: Hesiod's Catalogue of Women, translated by HG Evelyn-White; Nonnus' Dionysiaca translated by WHD Rouse; Reading from Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War, translated by Richard Crawley https://topostext.org/work/52.
Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions.
Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand).
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Liv Albert? Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com grouptrip.
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1:52 Liv Albert? So she, Europa, crossed the briny water from afar to Crete, beguiled by the wiles of Zeus. Secretly, did the father snatch her away and gave her a gift, the golden necklace, the toy which Hephaestus, the famed craftsman, once made by his cunning skill, and brought and gave it to his father for possession. And Zeus received the gift and gave it in turn to the daughter of proud phoenix. But when the father of men and of gods had mated so far off with trim-ankled Europa, then he departed back again from the rich-haired girl.
2:58 Liv Albert? Oh, hello there. Welcome to the Resistance? I mean, welcome to Let's Talk About Miss, baby. I am your host, Liv. And today I'm here to talk about, I won't give it away, you'll catch on fast. Today's episode is inspired by the world in which we're living. And while the timing might make it seem like I am directly aligning it with that creature taking power today, really, it's just him being a catalyst for so much more from this, just this, this world as a whole, one where so many things are happening at once.
3:43 Liv Albert? Now, originally, I planned to spend today talking entirely about the stories of Semelie and Europa, two women whose wombs held enormous power and who were both used by the king of the gods to seize and/or maintain that power over mortals and gods alike. And we will, we will still talk about them to an extent, maybe also next week. But I've, I've found there just needs to be a little bit more to it today. Because despite how I talked about them in the earliest episode of this podcast, that same Zeus episode that I shared a clip from last week, the stories of Semelie and Europa and all of the women Zeus used and abused go so far beyond gender and even sexual assault.
4:29 Liv Albert? So often in these stories of gods and monsters, women are a stand-in for everyone else, everyone who wasn't a free Greek man. Greek mythology is never just a story about what happens to one fictional character. Instead, its purpose was to tell the stories of everyone, to tell the stories of the humans who came before, and in ways that the humans of the time could understand.
5:10 Liv Albert? What does it mean to rebel? Ancient resistance to imperial violence.
5:31 Liv Albert? Once on the Sidonian beach, Zeus, as a high-horned bull, imitated an amorous bellow from his changeling throat and felt a charming thrill. Little Eros heaved up a woman with his two arms encircling her middle, and while he lifted her at his side, the seafaring bull curved his neck downwards, spread under the girl to mount, sinking sideways on his knees and stretching his back submissive. He raised up Europa, then the bull pressed on, and his floating hoof furrowed the water of the trodden brine noiselessly with forbearing footsteps.
6:14 Liv Albert? High above the sea, the girl throbbing with fear navigated on bullback, unmoving, unwetted. If you saw her, you would think it was Thetis, perhaps, or Galatea, or earth-shaker's bedfellow, or Aphrodite seated on Triton's neck. I sea-blue hair marvelled at the waddle-foot voyage. Triton heard the delusive lowing of Zeus and bellowed an echoing note to Cronos's son with his conch by way of wedding song. Nereus pointed out to Doris, the woman carried along, mingling wonder with fear as he saw the strange voyager and his horns.
7:01 Liv Albert? Now, the passage I read at the top of the episode was a fragment from what we call Hesiod's Catalogue of Women, one of the earliest surviving versions of Europa's story. The passage I just read now was from Nonus's Dionysia, one of the latest surviving versions of Europa's story. Some thousand years in between them? Because Europa's story, like Semele's, which we won't get to today, but next week, was and is so much more than just a story of Zeus, quote-unquote, "falling in love with a mortal woman."
7:37 Liv Albert? Europa was a princess of the Phoenician city of Tir. You might have heard of Tir recently. It's one of the oldest, continuously inhabited cities in world history, inhabited from the Bronze Age up until today and vital to Mediterranean mythology all around.
8:00 Liv Albert? Also, Israel bombed the living fuck out of it last year because, well, because the world's most powerful forces allow them to do whatever they want. And also probably because Tir holds three Palestinian refugee camps. Refugee camps which are only necessary because of the Nakba, the catastrophe, the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes in 1948, making them refugees from their ancestral land just a border away. Refugees who still hold the keys to their homes, which are now inhabited by... Well, you get the idea. Europa was a princess of tear who, one fateful day, was unlucky enough to catch the eye of Zeus. He came to her disguised as a beautiful white bull.
8:41 Liv Albert? And so the story goes, Europa was immediately entranced by him, climbed atop his back, only for the bull to swim off deep into the Mediterranean Sea. They landed on Crete, where poor Europa, utterly traumatized and terrified, climbed off Zeus's bull back with shaky legs, turning around only to find not a bull, but the king of gods that weren't hers, a king of foreign gods, who tells her, "Sorry, girl, you're not going home now."
9:14 Liv Albert? Zeus assaulted Europa and then left her there to found the West. Or rather, to give her name to the landmass on which she was dropped, not from which she came. Europa's is a story of trauma, of individual and familial tragedy, but it's also the story of the mythological origins of the Western world's desire to take things that aren't theirs and pass them off as a unique culture and not one cannibalized from the cultures they colonized and destroyed.
9:44 Liv Albert? According to the world of Greek mythology, the story of Europa serves to explain a handful of things the Greeks, at the time, weren't interested in denying. Much of their culture, and especially their alphabet, was inspired by the southeast, by the Phoenicians, the people of Europa, and the Canaanites, broadly, the people of Lebanon and Palestine. What it also represented, though, was the beginning of the West's need for conquest at any cost. There are better myths to focus on when it comes to settler colonial violence, but no better myth to focus on when it comes to the West's desire for supremacy. What better way to show perceived superiority than by explaining the history of a people
10:27 Liv Albert? and even a landmass through the lens of a young girl from the Levant being brought to live in Europe?
10:35 Liv Albert? Give her name to Europe and even give birth to some of the foundations of Western civilization. Which is why we're also going to talk about the very real imperial violence of Athens and how they disguised it behind the veneer of... Democracy.
10:51 Liv Albert? By definition, democracy is great. The word means literally the power of the people. Obviously, on its face, that's awesome. It's absolutely what we want as the people. The problem is who gets to be defined as people? See, in ancient Athens, where democracy was invented and first implemented, the people in power of the people wasn't just what you'd expect, men. But it was a very, very, very specific subset of men. Sure, the enormous population of enslaved people of Athens, they didn't count as people. I mean, I guess we expected that. And the women, obviously, the women weren't people. Why would they be people? You know, they could be born and raised in Athens with two Athenian parents,
11:35 Liv Albert? and they might be able to genealogically link themselves to Athens's founding families, but that doesn't make them people capable of determining who will rule Athens, not even capable of selecting the man who gets to rule over, again, the people. So, okay, even if women and enslaved people didn't get to be counted as people, like surely that still left enough of a voting population to warrant the word democracy? You know, men are half the population after all. Don't be crazy. Even if you're a man and you're free from enslavement, you don't automatically get to be a person? That would be silly. No, in order to count as a person in the term of power of the people,
12:15 Liv Albert? you, the man, have to fall into a very strict subset of men, Athenian men. Now, what it took to be counted among Athenian men, even that varied quite a bit over time, depending on just how xenophobic they were at any given moment. You know, did both of your parents, despite one of them not being counted amongst the Athenian people, have to be Athenian? Yeah. It makes sense, doesn't it? The women don't get to be people capable of determining their own fates, livelihoods, or futures, but they are certainly capable of passing down the male Athenian lineage required in that personhood.
12:52 Liv Albert? So when I use the word democracy, both in the ancient and modern context, I want you to remember what it really means. Democracy on its face implies an egalitarian society, at least, you know, now that women and people of color are allowed to vote in Western elections. Except, well, when you consider mass disenfranchisement, and which disproportionately affects those people who don't fit into the imperial definition of person-hood, you lose a lot of what it means to be power of the people.
13:24 Liv Albert? There's a very fine line between oligarchy and democracy, and the people who define it aren't the people living through it. Anyway, we're talking about ancient Athens, but you really did need to understand how their version of democracy functioned. And also, probably remember that most Western democracies don't function much better today. They're just better at hiding it while they violently inflict the freedom of democracy on countries which aren't white and which may choose to simply run things a little differently, because the planet is a big place and different cultures exist.
13:55 Liv Albert? In 416 BCE, the Athenians laid siege to the small island city-state of Melos.
14:16 Liv Albert? You might remember from my Euripides series, but in case you need the quick refresher, in 416 BCE, the Peloponnesian War was raging. Athens and Sparta each had Greek city-states, which were allies and subjects of their respective empires. Neither Athens nor Sparta really regularly called themselves an empire to the degree of the Romans, so we often like to think that they didn't have empires. We like to imagine Athens as the place of intellectual discussions and the invention of the wonder, the wonder that is democracy, a political system that needs no adjustments lest one seek to be called a commie.
14:51 Liv Albert? But, well, let's read directly from the Greek historian whose definitive work on the Peloponnesian War, fortunately, survives for us today as a nearly firsthand account of the effects of Athenian democracy.
15:04 Liv Albert? This is from Thucydides's History of the Peloponnesian War. I'll be honest with you, we're gonna read a lot of it.
15:12 Liv Albert? The Athenians also made an expedition against the Isle of Melos with thirty ships of their own, six Cean and two lesbian vessels, sixteen hundred heavy infantry, three hundred archers and twenty mounted archers from Athens, and about fifteen hundred heavy infantry from the Allies and the islanders. The Melians are a colony of Sparta that would not submit to the Athenians like the other islanders, and at first remained neutral and took no part in the struggle, but afterwards, upon the Athenians using violence and plundering their territory, assumed an attitude of open hostility.
15:50 Liv Albert? Cleomedes, son of Lycomedes, and Tissias, son of Tissimachus, the generals encamping in their territory with the above armament, before doing any harm to their land, sent envoys to negotiate. These the Melians did not bring before the people, but bade them state the object of their mission to the magistrates and the few, upon which the Athenian envoys spoke as follows: "Since the negotiations are not to go on before the people, in order that we may not be able to speak straight on, without interruption, and deceive the ears of the multitude by seductive arguments which would pass without refutation, for we know that this is the
16:33 Liv Albert? meaning of our being brought before the few, what if you who sit there were to pursue a method more cautious still? Make no set speech yourself, but take us up at whatever you do not like, and settle that before going any farther, and first, tell us if this proposition of ours suits you?" The Melian commissioners answered: "To the fairness of quietly instructing each other as you propose, there is nothing to object, but your military preparations are too far advanced to agree with what you say. As we see, you are come to be judges in your own cause, and that all we can reasonably
17:13 Liv Albert? expect from this negotiation is war, if we prove to have right on our side and refuse to submit, and in the contrary case, slavery."
17:25 Liv Albert? The Athenian envoy replied: "If you have met to reason about presentiments of the future or anything else than to consult for the safety of your state upon the facts that you see before you, we will give over; otherwise we will go on." The Melians answered: "It is natural and excusable for men in our position to turn more ways than one, both in thought and utterance. However, the question in this conference is, as you say, the safety of our country, and the discussion, if you please, can proceed in the way which you propose."
18:01 Liv Albert? The Athenian envoys replied: "For ourselves, we shall not trouble you with specious pretenses, either of how we have a right to our empire because we overthrew the Medes, or are now attacking you because of wrong that you have done to us, and make a long speech which would not be believed; and in return we hope that you, instead of thinking to influence us by saying that you did not join the Spartans, the Lacedaemonians, although they are colonists, or that you have done us no wrong, will aim at what is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both, since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only
18:42 Liv Albert? in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
18:52 Liv Albert? The Melian commissioners replied: "As we think, at any rate, it is expedient; we speak as we are obliged, since you enjoin us to let right alone and talk only of interest. That you should not destroy what is our common protection, the privilege of being allowed in danger to invoke what is fair and right, and even to profit by arguments not strictly valid if they can be got to pass current; and you are as much interested in this as any, as your fall would be a signal for the heaviest vengeance and an example for the world to meditate upon."
19:33 Liv Albert? The Athenian envoy replies: "The end of our empire, if and it should, does not frighten us. A rival empire like Lacedaemon, even if Lacedaemon was our real antagonist, is not so terrible to the vanquished as subjects who by themselves attack and overpower their rulers. This, however, is a risk that we are content to take. We will now proceed to show you that we are come here in the interest of our empire, and that we shall say what we are now going to say, for the preservation of your country, as we would fain exercise that empire over you without trouble, and see you preserved for the good of us both."
20:20 Liv Albert? The Melian commissioners reply: "And how, pray, could it turn out as good for us to serve as for you to rule?
20:35 Liv Albert? Because you would have the advantage of submitting before suffering the worst, and we should gain by not destroying you,
20:44 Liv Albert? so that you would not consent to our being neutral friends instead of enemies, but allies of neither side? No, for your hostility cannot so much hurt us as your friendship will be an argument to our subjects of our weakness and your enmity of our power."
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22:56 Speaker 01 Host Thanksgiving with industry leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are no antibiotics in their meat department ever. So carve up turkey and spiral cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 brand. And guess what? All their delectable pies are made with no high fructose corn syrup. Gourmet Thanksgiving flavors with the quality you want only at Whole Foods Market.
23:51 Liv Albert? No, we're not done reading this section of Thucydides, but we are going to pause and break this shit down a bit. Athens is an empire. They're a colonizing force that has rolled up to an island state that was not posing any active threat to them aside from simply existing as a state that is not explicitly on Athens's side, a state that is not currently under their colonial yoke. Ultimately, the only threat they pose is maybe, possibly, they could side with Athens as enemies. Athens, like so many politicians these days, is just saying the quiet part out loud. The only threat they cause is existing. The potential
24:36 Liv Albert? that they could violently uprise against colonial powers, that is the threat. So yeah, because this negotiation between a colonizing force promising complete destruction to the colonized people with the explicit purpose of just broadening their imperial goals, it's absolutely not relatable at all in 2025. And the nonsensical war mongering of a state that's claimed superiority over others is just being quote unquote democratic and ruled by the people is definitely something exclusive to antiquity and doesn't at all resemble the current imperial power of Western civilization. It's just this topic is just, it's so utterly foreign and separate from the lived realities of people today. You
25:21 Liv Albert? know, because of that, because of that, we're gonna just return to this negotiation between this imperial power with one of the largest and most powerful militaries and specifically navies in the ancient Mediterranean, you know, versus this small island nation that's just trying to exist as free people. Just remember, though, that this is what the negotiations had been just before that little break.
25:50 Liv Albert? The Melian Commissioned asked, "And how, pray, could it turn out as good for us to serve as for you to rule?" And the Athenian envoy replied, "Because you would have the advantage of submitting before suffering the worst, and we should gain by not destroying you."
26:10 Liv Albert? So you would not consent to our being neutral, friends instead of enemies, but allies of neither side? No. For your hostility cannot so much hurt us as your friendship will be an argument to our subjects of our weakness and your enmity of our power.
26:31 Liv Albert? Is that your subjects' idea of equity, to put those who have nothing to do with you in the same category with peoples that are, most of them your own colonists and some conquered rebels? As far as right goes, they think one has as much of it as the other, and that if any maintain their independence, it is because they are strong, and that if we do not molest them, it is because we are afraid. So that besides extending our empire, we should gain in security by your subjection. The fact that you are islanders and weaker than others rendering it all the more important that you should not succeed in baffling the masters of the sea.
27:18 Liv Albert? But you do not consider that there is no security in the policy which we indicate? For here again, if you debar us from talking about justice and invite us to obey your interests, we also must explain ours and try to persuade you, if the two happen to coincide. How can you avoid making enemies of all existing neutrals who shall look at our case and conclude from it that one day or another you will attack them? And what is this but to make greater the enemies that you have already, and to force others to become so, who would otherwise have never thought of it?
27:59 Liv Albert? Why, the fact is that Continentals generally give us but little alarm. The liberty which they enjoy will long prevent their taking precautions against us. It is rather islanders, like yourselves, outside our empire, and subjects smarting under the yoke, who would be the most likely to take a rash step and lead themselves and us into obvious danger.
28:26 Liv Albert? Well, then, if you risk so much to retain your empire and your subjects to get rid of it, it were surely great baseness and cowardice in us who are still free not to try everything that can be tried before submitting to your yoke.
28:46 Liv Albert? Not if you are well advised, the contest not being an equal one, with honour as the prize and shame as the penalty, but a question of self-preservation and of not resisting those who are far stronger than you.
29:03 Liv Albert? But we know that the fortune of war is sometimes more impartial than the disproportion of numbers might lead one to suppose. To submit is to give ourselves over to despair, while action still preserves us a hope that we may stand tall.
29:21 Liv Albert? Hope, danger's comforter, may be indulged in by those who have abundant resources, if not without loss at all events, without ruin. But its nature is to be extravagant, and those who go so far as to put their all upon the venture see it in its true colours only when they are ruined. But so long as the discovery would enable them to guard against it, it is never found wanting. Let not this be the case for you, who are weak and hang on a single turn of the scale, nor be like the vulgar, who, abandoning such security as human means may still afford, when visible hopes fail them in extremity, turn to invisible, to prophecies and oracles
30:05 Liv Albert? and other such inventions that delude men with hopes to their destruction.
30:12 Liv Albert? The Melians. You may be sure that we are well aware, as you, of the difficulty of contending against your power and fortune, unless the terms be equal. But we trust that the gods may grant us fortune as good as yours, since we are just men fighting against unjust, and that what we want in power will be made up by the alliance of the Lacedaemonians, who are bound, if only for very shame, to come to the aid of their kindred.
30:42 Liv Albert? Our confidence, therefore, after all, is not so utterly irrational. When you speak of the favor of the gods, we may as fairly hope for that as yourselves, neither our pretensions nor our conduct being in any way contrary to what men believe of the gods, or practice among themselves. Of the gods we believe, and of men we know, that by a necessary law of their nature they rule wherever they can. And it is not as if we were the first to make this law, or to act upon it when made; we found it existing before us, and shall leave it to exist forever after us. All we do is make use of it, knowing that you and everybody else, having the same power
31:27 Liv Albert? as we have, would do the same as we do. Thus, as far as the gods are concerned, we have no fear and no reason to fear that we shall be at a disadvantage. But when we come to your notion about the Lacedaemonians, which leads you to believe that shame will make them help you, here we bless your simplicity, but do not envy or folly. The Spartans, when their own interests or their country's laws are in question, are the worthiest men alive. Of their conduct towards others, much might be said, but no clearer idea of it could be given than by shortly saying, that of all men we know, they are most conspicuous in considering what is agreeable honorable, and what is expedient just.
32:12 Liv Albert? Such a way of thinking does not promise much for the safety which you now unreasonably count upon.
32:20 Liv Albert? But it is for this very reason that we now trust to their respect for expediency to prevent them from betraying us, the Melians, their colonists, and thereby losing the confidence of their friends in Helles and helping their enemies.
32:36 Liv Albert? Then you do not adopt the view that expediency goes with security, while justice and honor cannot be followed without danger, and danger the Lacedaemonians generally court as little as possible.
32:50 Liv Albert? But we believe that they would be more likely to face even danger for our sake and with more confidence than for others, as our nearness to Peloponnese makes it easier for them to act and our common blood ensures our fidelity.
33:05 Liv Albert? Yes, but what an intending ally trusts to is not the goodwill of those who ask his aid but a decided superiority of power for action, and the Lacedaemonians look to this even more than others. At least, such is their distrust of their home resources that is only with numerous allies that they attack a neighbor. Now is it likely that while we are masters of the sea they will cross over to an island?
33:32 Liv Albert? But they would have others to send. The cretency is a wide one; it is more difficult for those who command it to intercept others than for those who wish to elude them to do it safely. And should the Lacedaemonians miscarry in this, they would fall upon your land and upon those left of your allies whom Brasidas did not reach, and instead of places which are not yours you will have to fight for your own country and your own confederacy.
33:58 Liv Albert? Some diversion of the kind you speak of may one day experience, only to learn as others have done that the Athenians never once yet withdrew from a siege for fear of any. But we are struck by the fact that after saying you would consult for the safety of your country, in all this discussion you have mentioned nothing which men might trust in and think to be saved by. Your strongest arguments depend upon hope and the future, and your actual resources are too scanty as compared with those arrayed against you for you to come out victorious. You will therefore show great blindness of judgment unless, after allowing us to retire, you can find some counsel more prudent than this.
34:41 Liv Albert? You will surely not be caught by that idea of disgrace, which endangers that are disgraceful, and at the same time too plain to be mistaken, proves so fatal to mankind, since in too many cases the very men that have their eyes perfectly open to what they are rushing into, let the thing called disgrace, by the mere influences of a seductive name, lead them on to a point at which they become so enslaved by the phrase as in fact to fall willfully into hopelessness, disaster, and incur disgrace, more disgraceful as the companion of error than when it comes as the result of misfortune.
35:22 Liv Albert? This, if you are well advised, you will guard against, and you will not think it dishonorable to submit to the greatest city in Helles, when it makes you the moderate offer of becoming its tributary ally, without ceasing to enjoy the country that belongs to you; nor when you have the choice given between war and security will you be so blinded as to choose the worse. And it is certain that those who do not yield to their equals, who keep terms with their superiors and are moderate towards their inferiors, on the whole succeed best. Think over the matter, therefore, after our withdrawal, and reflect once and again that it is for your country that you are consulting,
36:07 Liv Albert? that you have not more than once, and that upon this one deliberation depends its prosperity or ruin.
36:18 Liv Albert? The Athenians now withdrew from the conference, and the Melians, left to themselves, came to a decision corresponding with what they had maintained in the discussion, and answered, "Our resolution, Athenians, is the same as it was at first. We will not in a moment deprive of freedom, a city that has been inhabited these seven hundred years; but we put our trust in the fortune by which the gods have preserved it until now, and in the help of men, that is, of the Lacedaemonians, and so we will try and save ourselves. Meanwhile, we invite you to allow us to be friends to you, and foes to neither party,
37:01 Liv Albert? and to retire from our country after making such a treaty as shall seem fit to us both."
37:09 Liv Albert? Such was the answer of the Melians. The Athenians now departing from the conference said, "Well, you alone, as it seems to us, judging from these resolutions, regard what is future as more certain than what is before your eyes, and what is out of sight in your eagerness as already coming to pass. And as you have staked most on and trusted most in, the Lacedaemonians, your fortune and your hopes, so will you be most completely deceived." The Athenian envoys now returned to the army, and the Melians showing no signs of yielding, the generals at once betook themselves to hostilities,
37:52 Liv Albert? and drew a line of circumvallation round the Melians, dividing the work among the different states. Subsequently, the Athenians returned with most of their army, leaving behind them a certain number of their own citizens and of the allies to keep guard by land and sea. The force thus left, stayed, and besieged the island.
38:32 Liv Albert? Just in case you need a clearer translation of what's just gone down between the Athenians and the Melians. Well, the Athenians showed up to an island that wasn't theirs and essentially told these people to submit to the colonial rule of Athens, or they're gonna be destroyed. The Melians tried to break down the logic behind Athens's decision. They tried to suggest that, "We're not enemies, we just wanna live."
38:56 Liv Albert? But, but there isn't any logic behind Athens's decision, and so wanting to continue living on the land they've lived on for, what did they say? Alright, 700 years. Add another, carry the one, right. It's 3,000 what I'm talking about. But here, here, just the Melians. We're not talking about anything else, it's the Melians. The Melians refused to be colonized.
39:22 Liv Albert? And when they refuse to be colonized and they refuse to submit to this imperial power because they refuse to give up their freedom on their land.
39:34 Liv Albert? Well, Athens was more than happy to, well, see as you heard after these, you know, seemingly good faith negotiations, huh, don't result in Athens getting exactly what they want down to the last tiny, tiny, tiny letter because it wasn't really negotiations. It was an imperial power coming and saying, if you don't do this, we'll kill you. It was just treated like negotiations because that's how they do it to make it seem like they're reasonable. Anyway, after that, the Melians dared to defend themselves. They dared rebel against this colonizing force through the only means available to them, violence. And, uh, well, I mean, you can just hear it,
40:16 Liv Albert? right? The Athenians are, they're saying something about terrorism.
40:24 Liv Albert? Anyway, the Athenians called them terrorists and used this violence to justify what can only be called a genocide. The Athenians killed all of the men of Melos. They enslaved the surviving women and children. And only a short while later, the siege of Melos was, oh, they were forced to acknowledge that it was one of the greatest atrocities ever committed by Athens. Not because they had any claim to the land, not because they needed this small island in the southern Aegean for any benevolent reason, simply because when an imperial power is threatened, or rather when they feel threatened by the freedom of another people, the imperial power is willing to kill or destroy the lives of as many innocent people as is necessary in order to defeat the rebellion. Or again, you might be more familiar with the term terrorism for rebellions like those. Because if history is taught us anything, it's only in hindsight,
41:08 Liv Albert? when people fighting for freedom from an imperial occupying force get to be called rebels or revolutionaries. They don't call them that in the moment. Not when you're living in the occupying force.
41:41 Liv Albert? Well nerds, that escalated quickly. Today's episode, honestly, it just kinda happened. Like, I had a plan and that plan involved Europa and Semelie, but then I woke up on Monday, January 20th, a day full of, honestly, just so fucking much. And I just found myself researching the episode a little bit differently than I planned, because, I dunno, it's, it's almost like it's easier to understand modern colonial violence and the ramifications of those who rebel against the absolutely destructive yoke of colonialism. It's just, it's a little bit easier to understand when we look back at a place like ancient Athens and not, you know, the one. Or ones? You know, the ones. They're basically one and the same.
42:28 Liv Albert? "The Western powers are failing, but a dying empire is arguably more dangerous than a thriving one. As in death, empires reach for more power. Their desperate attempts to hold on to what they're losing become some of the most violent moments in that empire." Um, and so just generally, today is a difficult one. Uh, "The ceasefire is holding for now, so the people of Palestine can breathe and mourn their martyr dead, but no one is free until everyone is free. A ceasefire is not a free Palestine. The imperial yoke of the West is still crushing them underfoot. It's just doing so for a little while without the use of bombs and bullets, but do not let them convince you that our work is done." And to the American listeners who actually listen to me and this show, gods, I'm thinking
43:12 Liv Albert? about you today. But get angry, don't get sad, get angry and use your anger to help yourselves and those under the imperial yoke. Because, nobody is free until everybody's free. From the river to the fucking sea. Let's Talk About Myths, Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert, Michaela Pangawish is the Hermes to my Limbians, my producer, select music by Luke Chaos. The podcast is brought to you by my incredible patrons whose names you can now find at mythsbaby.com/sponsors. Become one of those patrons by subscribing to the Oracle Edition, an ad-free way to support the podcast while getting capitalism as far out as possible. Plus, you get a bunch of cool shit. Patreon.com/MythsBaby.
43:59 Liv Albert? Resist. Resist, revolt, rebel.
44:06 Liv Albert? I am Liv and I love this shit.
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Previous Liv Reads Statius: The Thebaid (Part 1) Next RE-AIR: Very Extravagant Rich People, Ancient Sparta & The Spartan Mirage (Part Two) Page updated November 5, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated