‘Narnia: The Magician’s Nephew’ Trailer, ‘Slow Horses’ S6E5, and ‘East of Eden’ E5-7. Plus, ‘Girls’ Is Coming Back!

Chris and Andy talk about ‘The Land’ trailer (2:31), the news that HBO’s ‘Girls’ is coming back in the form of a five-episode limited run (13:15), and the ‘Narnia: The Magician’s Nephew’ trailer (21:27). Later, they discuss ‘Slow Horses’ Season 6, Episode 5 (27:44) and the last three episodes of ‘East of Eden’ (38:33). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Follow us on IG and TikTok! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Mike Wargon Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:05Speaker 03

  I need sports staff to clear the room.

• 1:08Chris Ryan?

  Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me in a new studio, he gets to find out what happened to Baby Grover. It's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:25Andy Greenwald?

  Look at us, back to the city where it all began.

• 1:28Chris Ryan?

  Girls is back.

• 1:29Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:29Chris Ryan?

  CR and Andy back in New York City. Thanks to you for making the time to come visit me here.

• 1:36Andy Greenwald?

  You're visiting me here, too. You weren't here today.

• 1:38Chris Ryan?

  Sure, that's true. Greenwald and I are coming live from New York. It's a Wednesday when we're recording, but we'll put this out on Thursday. A couple other housekeeping notes.

• 1:46Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, do that first.

• 1:48Chris Ryan?

  So what we're gonna do today is some news at the top. Girls, the land trailer, that Narnia trailer. We're gonna talk about the end of East of Eden in the most recent episode of Slow Horses, the penultimate one of the sixth season. Everybody's probably thinking to themselves, damn, dog. You're not talking about the Lowdown, season two?

• 2:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 2:05Chris Ryan?

  You're not talking about Vision Quest, season one?

• 2:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 2:08Chris Ryan?

  We will. You just gotta bear with us. You know, when you have takes this hot, this intellectually rigorous.

• 2:15Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 2:15Chris Ryan?

  Sometimes you gotta let the sourdough rise, you know?

• 2:18Andy Greenwald?

  That's beautiful. How is your sourdough starter doing? It's been six years, I think.

• 2:22Chris Ryan?

  I've had Vision Quest, kind of. I've had Vision, just sort of monitoring the situation.

• 2:26Andy Greenwald?

  I get it.

• 2:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and I think we'll have a special guest on Monday's show, as well as some news and notes and stuff like that. But we are going to, rest assured, we are gonna get to Lowdown, Vision Quest. There's a lot of stuff flying around. Carrie, many people are saying.

• 2:41Andy Greenwald?

  I thought you were boycotting.

• 2:43Chris Ryan?

  I don't know if I publicly said that.

• 2:45Andy Greenwald?

  Well, okay.

• 2:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:47Andy Greenwald?

  I thought you were avoiding.

• 2:49Chris Ryan?

  Here's my thing with Carrie. I'll just say that my priors are that I don't want to watch what happens in Carrie take place over eight hours. I thought it was executed perfectly in Brian De Palma's rather brief film.

• 3:02Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, I thought it was about the sheriff in Rushville of the recent HBO series, Lanterns. But just eight episodes devoted to her.

• 3:09Chris Ryan?

  I wanna watch it. It's spooky season after all. How you doing? How you enjoying New York City?

• 3:14Andy Greenwald?

  It's great. We're back to, are we still calling it Indian summer? Is that okay?

• 3:18Chris Ryan?

  I don't think so.

• 3:18Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, indigenous summer. It's beautiful, sun is out. You know, it's great to be in this part of town, too. Lower Manhattan, like, high in the sky. If Sean McDermott could see us now. You know what I mean?

• 3:30Chris Ryan?

  You see what? You mentioned the NFL. We're gonna get to girls, but I wanna ask you about the land. The land trailer. So for folks that don't know, this is a new show that has been within Holly Weird, pretty hotly tipped. I think that there's a fair amount of hype around this show. So it comes from Dan Fogelman, who's done Paradise and This Is Us, and is one of the last purveyors, I would say, of massive mainstream entertainment that still has some kind of, I think, appeal to people who maybe watch prestige television as well. He is the great crossover, current crossover artist.

• 4:06Andy Greenwald?

  That's right.

• 4:08Chris Ryan?

  And this show is about two families. Both, one owns the Cleveland Browns and one works within the Cleveland Browns organization.

• 4:18Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 4:18Chris Ryan?

  It is made with the participation of the NFL.

• 4:21Andy Greenwald?

  Shocking.

• 4:22Chris Ryan?

  So full logos, no Any Given Sunday or Dark Knight Rises style. What team is this that I'm watching as Bane blows up the stadium? You know? Which is really important to me, because I care about verisimilitude.

• 4:35Andy Greenwald?

  I know. You understood that Heinz Ward only wore one uniform throughout his career. And it was of the Gotham City Gophers, or whatever it was.

• 4:42Chris Ryan?

  Bane Orange. And they just dropped the trailer. The show comes out in February. And this is just something I've had my eye on, because I think sometimes you can see someone, whether or not this was in development during Landman or during any other kind of shows that I feel like it's rooted in or it takes its cues from. I feel like this is a big effort on the part of Hulu and Disney to get into that sweet, sweet Sheridan zone.

• 5:13Andy Greenwald?

  Of like, appealing to the hard land.

• 5:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, appealing to everybody, man. Who doesn't like football? Who doesn't like a dad with a complicated relationship with his son? Or a dad with a complicated relationship with his daughters? The cast is pretty packed. William H. Macy plays the aging owner of the Browns. Mandy Moore plays one of his daughters. I believe Chloe Bennett is also one of his daughters. And they're grappling with who's gonna get to take over from dad.

• 5:37Andy Greenwald?

  So is this Carly Ursay vibes?

• 5:41Chris Ryan?

  Man, can you imagine?

• 5:43Andy Greenwald?

  Speak to it.

• 5:43Chris Ryan?

  Bottle F of just Mandy Moore following Christopher Maloney around.

• 5:48Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, just with her own head. Listening on the headset?

• 5:52Chris Ryan?

  Maloney plays the coach. I think Omar Epps is like, I'm guessing the OC, based on what I'm seeing.

• 5:58Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. Do you think, is he calling plays from the booth like Sean Mannion?

• 6:01Chris Ryan?

  That's what I was wondering. I mean, he is up there. Chase Crawford is in this. And the trailer came with a pretty penny Led Zeppelin needle drop?

• 6:14Andy Greenwald?

  Well, it's not the only one.

• 6:15Chris Ryan?

  Oh, no, wait.

• 6:16Andy Greenwald?

  That was Narnia.

• 6:16Chris Ryan?

  That's all right. This came with Aerosmith.

• 6:19Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but they were both like, okay.

• 6:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:21Andy Greenwald?

  Rock is back.

• 6:22Chris Ryan?

  You guys spent some money on this. What'd you think of this trailer?

• 6:26Andy Greenwald?

  I would say that we've come a long way. Well, it makes me think we've come a long way, because the last full-on NFL show was ESPN's lone foray into scripted television, Playmakers. Which we, didn't we talk about that with Mina at the live show?

• 6:44Chris Ryan?

  I think so.

• 6:44Andy Greenwald?

  A couple years ago?

• 6:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:46Andy Greenwald?

  And Playmakers was a. Mina's live show, yes.

• 6:50Chris Ryan?

  You and I never done a live show.

• 6:51Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, no, for reasons that.

• 6:53Chris Ryan?

  We're like Steely Dan. It's better this way.

• 6:55Andy Greenwald?

  I can't reveal the lower half of my body publicly. I only exist.

• 6:59Chris Ryan?

  It's too Jim Sharkt out, yes. You just have a fin down there that you gave you at the gym.

• 7:05Andy Greenwald?

  Just, just really alarming calves. The issue with Playmakers was, you know, it was very ahead of its time in that it was like, quite salacious. And there was drug use on these teams. And there was, you know, stuff about CTE. And the NFL was not into one of its partners saying anything sideways about football.

• 7:25Chris Ryan?

  Yes, ESPN took that note.

• 7:27Andy Greenwald?

  They took it aggressively and ended the show. I think that this is either a sign of the league's understanding that basically it is a juggernaut and nothing is going to stop love of football or discourse about football in this country. Or we may end up with a kind of, you know, uncanny valley show where, you know, the main problem is these characters don't love tackling enough. And it improves their health and acuity.

• 7:54Chris Ryan?

  Sure, yeah.

• 7:54Andy Greenwald?

  You know, it's unclear. But it really is jarring for people of our age to see a fictional show use real teams.

• 8:01Chris Ryan?

  Nothing makes you a better father than playing center on a team that does the tush push, you know? I'm curious what it is about the Cleveland Browns organization that lends itself to these forays into filmmaking. Because Draft Day was also about the Cleveland Browns.

• 8:18Andy Greenwald?

  I think it's all for one moment that's in the trailer. And I didn't actually write down the dialogue, but there is a moment where William H. Macy says, "How am I going to get us out from underneath these terrible decisions?" And I feel like it's just kind of a Deshaun Watson zag.

• 8:32Chris Ryan?

  Maybe, yeah.

• 8:33Andy Greenwald?

  To be like, oh, what was the decision? Who can say what the decision was? But look at my beautiful daughters, leading us into the future.

• 8:40Chris Ryan?

  Do you think this show will come with any of Dan Fogelman's signature timeline hopping?

• 8:45Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm. Oh, so you think we might go back?

• 8:47Chris Ryan?

  Well, This Is Us famously has, goes back and forth. And obviously Paradise does a lot of flashing back and flashing forward.

• 8:53Andy Greenwald?

  Huh. Do you think there is a version of, do we go back to a moment when? Like William H. Macy. So William H. Macy in this version, right? He's, was Al Lerner was the guy who like brought the Browns back? Was he the first owner of the new Browns?

• 9:09Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I can't remember. Yes.

• 9:10Andy Greenwald?

  Because the Browns fled Cleveland in the night.

• 9:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 9:14Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, no. Yes, right.

• 9:15Chris Ryan?

  Art Modell, right?

• 9:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, Art Modell moved the team.

• 9:18Chris Ryan?

  To Indianapolis or Baltimore?

• 9:21Chris Ryan?

  Baltimore.

• 9:21Andy Greenwald?

  Baltimore.

• 9:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 9:22Andy Greenwald?

  And then became the Ravens because the Colts, what happened to the, what had happened to the? Oh, the Colts went to Indianapolis.

• 9:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Baltimore Colts went to Indianapolis. Cleveland went to Baltimore.

• 9:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 9:33Chris Ryan?

  And Cleveland immediately started again.

• 9:36Andy Greenwald?

  Got a new team with Tim Couch, I believe, was their first.

• 9:38Chris Ryan?

  Well, he wins some, you lose some.

• 9:40Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly. Mostly lose them, I think. So the time shenanigans makes me wonder, like, is in this timeline?

• 9:46Chris Ryan?

  Is Tim Couch like four-time Super Bowl winner?

• 9:49Andy Greenwald?

  Or did they draft Donovan McNabb, you know? And so we lose no matter what. But like, is this on a timeline where the Browns never left Cleveland?

• 9:58Chris Ryan?

  Uh, or, I mean, is there, are they like trying? Or will it flash forward to like 2035 and the Browns have won three titles? But then it's like, how did they get here? And you know, all sorts of stuff.

• 10:10Andy Greenwald?

  Steve Belichick probably helped them. I desperately, the problem is this. This looks like a smart play. It looks star-studded and Fogelman is a guy that grabs you and makes the storylines that make you want to keep hitting next, even if you find it slightly preposterous. So I have no reservations on that front. But as we're talking about it, my desire for this to be more like Paradise, where it's actually about like a time ravaged head coach who has one more chance to avert the apocalypse if Cleveland becomes good and is thus sabotaged.

• 10:41Chris Ryan?

  The Browns are like the only human team playing against like an NFL team of Claude.

• 10:45Andy Greenwald?

  They don't show much in terms of on-field action, right? So it's possible, but is this set in the same, okay?

• 10:52Chris Ryan?

  Now I've got your wheel spinning.

• 10:53Andy Greenwald?

  I'm really spinning. Like, there's a Kevin Hart commercial that's airing right now, I believe, in which he is in the Philadelphia Eagles huddle, right? And the Eagles jerseys are represented, but it's all made up players.

• 11:07Chris Ryan?

  Is it for like a gambling?

• 11:09Andy Greenwald?

  I want to be clear, I watched a lot of NFL on mute during my travel the other day. So I actually don't know and maybe I dreamed it. But like, is that the Eagles in the land universe played by these extras?

• 11:20Chris Ryan?

  That would be interesting. It's like, what, what, what stars are going to be on these other teams?

• 11:24Andy Greenwald?

  Let's stay focused. Here's the, here's the main reason why, why I think you want to talk about this. You have made quite a pretty penny being the ombudsman for sports on camera.

• 11:35Chris Ryan?

  I, yeah, I mean, I just.

• 11:37Andy Greenwald?

  Actually, you've made nothing, but you do it for the love of the game.

• 11:39Chris Ryan?

  Sure. And I take my cues from my boss, Bill Simmons, who wants to be the sports czar and is always like, just ask me, I'll tell you if it's a good idea.

• 11:45Andy Greenwald?

  He didn't weigh in on the Lanterns offensive line debacle.

• 11:48Chris Ryan?

  He hasn't watched Lanterns. I got that from the horse's mouth. He has watched all of Carrie, though.

• 11:52Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, interesting.

• 11:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 11:54Andy Greenwald?

  Any sports in that? Anything happen in the gymnasium that he wanted to weigh in on?

• 11:58Chris Ryan?

  Um, go ahead. So what were we going to say though?

• 12:00Andy Greenwald?

  Well, no, so I like, are you anticipating lots of content for this? In the sense that like, if they are trying to show a team playing, you know, like a Sean McVay like wide zone run scheme, are you there to like diagram it and say?

• 12:13Chris Ryan?

  I do wonder, given the action that we saw on the field, whether or not the land cameras have been filming actual NFL action. Not necessarily like that Packers Browns game that's in the trailer, but

• 12:26Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 12:26Chris Ryan?

  I do wonder whether or not, can you get away with getting Chase Crawford on a sideline for like two minutes? Filming him and be like, oh, interesting, like.

• 12:35Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, our, our team just has a guy who protects the coach and wears an Italian flag on his hat on the sideline.

• 12:40Chris Ryan?

  And is a big lib.

• 12:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 12:41Chris Ryan?

  Big Dom, Big Dom the Dem, yeah.

• 12:43Andy Greenwald?

  He's on our team twice. This feels good, man.

• 12:48Chris Ryan?

  Oh, man.

• 12:48Andy Greenwald?

  You, my point is you can get anyone on a sideline.

• 12:51Chris Ryan?

  He's, he's a Dem. Big Dom, the security chieftain of the Philadelphia Eagles was, was spotted at like a Democratic fundraiser this weekend.

• 12:59Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 13:01Chris Ryan?

  I don't know how he feels about Shane Gillis's monologue, though. That's where, that's where everything gets kind of distilled down to, right?

• 13:06Andy Greenwald?

  Can't we reach across the aisle for that? The aisle in Studio 8H? Like, come on. Well, uh, okay. So you're in? Where are you?

• 13:15Chris Ryan?

  I'm curious. I'm very, I'm very curious. I think for sometimes, like what I like about the Taylor shows generally is there is 22% batshit crazy, no notes, like whiteboard writing and the dialogue can sometimes be so nuts that I, I find that that gets me over whatever hump I have of what is this episode about? Like, why are we doing this? If it's going to be just straight-faced, like dad, you need to let me be the quarterback of the Browns. No, son, you're not ready yet.

• 13:46Andy Greenwald?

  So like the, um, the Sanders household?

• 13:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 13:50Andy Greenwald?

  Basically.

• 13:51Chris Ryan?

  Basically.

• 13:52Andy Greenwald?

  I, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I'm glad it's not a Taylor Sheridan show because if this were a Taylor Sheridan show, it would be entirely about William H. Macy pounding Michelob Ultras and talking to other owners about how the players don't understand how hard his job is.

• 14:06Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 14:07Andy Greenwald?

  And then like one player's like leg would explode and he'd be like, god damn it, that's my money bleeding out there. And that would be the show.

• 14:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 14:14Andy Greenwald?

  Not as good.

• 14:14Chris Ryan?

  Not as good. Uh, what will be good is the fact that Girls is coming back. It was announced yesterday.

• 14:20Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 14:21Chris Ryan?

  That, I believe after, what is it, like a 10-year break?

• 14:24Andy Greenwald?

  10 years.

• 14:24Chris Ryan?

  10 years since we last had Girls. Lena Dunham is bringing her series back for, I believe, a five-episode limited event.

• 14:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 14:35Chris Ryan?

  Uh, most of the cast was announced as returning, including Dunham as Hannah, Allison Williams as Marnie, Jemima Kirk as Jessa. She was phoning in from the set of a Woody Allen movie for that introductory Zoom that they had.

• 14:50Chris Ryan?

  And Socha Mamet as Shoshona. Additionally, uh, it looks like Rannells is back. Andrew Rannells will play Elijah.

• 14:58Andy Greenwald?

  He had a square on the fun Zoom.

• 15:00Chris Ryan?

  Adam Driver, Ben Solo not there.

• 15:03Andy Greenwald?

  No, but Soderbergh has worked up a way to get him back into the Girls canon. If only Casey Blies had the courage.

• 15:10Chris Ryan?

  He wants to get, uh, Baby Grover into the Order of 66 before it's too late.

• 15:16Andy Greenwald?

  Did you read, did you read Fame Sick Lena Dunham's memoir?

• 15:19Chris Ryan?

  I didn't.

• 15:20Andy Greenwald?

  I didn't either, but every, everyone. No, everyone at work did though today and was talking about this. And the takeaway was that book doesn't say that Girls is coming back, but it is written in a way that would not give any of the people who are on that Zoom reason not to do it. And basically makes it clear, I mean, I think we could all assume.

• 15:41Chris Ryan?

  When you say that, do you mean it doesn't like cast any aspersions towards those people?

• 15:44Andy Greenwald?

  Towards the, those four, the other three girls, now perhaps women and Andrew, Andrew Rannells.

• 15:52Chris Ryan?

  Do you think they'll call it women?

• 15:53Andy Greenwald?

  I don't. I don't. What would Shane Gillis call it? But that.

• 16:01Chris Ryan?

  He'd just say it's comedy.

• 16:02Andy Greenwald?

  But that Adam Driver and, and Lena's former creative partner Jenny Connor would likely not be invited.

• 16:07Chris Ryan?

  Probably not.

• 16:07Andy Greenwald?

  To the reunion.

• 16:08Chris Ryan?

  If I had to guess.

• 16:09Andy Greenwald?

  Now, I will zag and say, I'm not mad about the Driver thing. Not because I don't love him as an actor and think his character was great. But when this is pitched as saying Lena had a story to tell, specific five episodes, we're going to shoot in the summer like we used to do it and we're going to tell this story. It makes me think that this has a little more pep in its step than say a Frasier or Scrubs reboot, which is really a reboot. So.

• 16:35Chris Ryan?

  Though Scrubs is actually doing quite well.

• 16:36Andy Greenwald?

  No, I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying that the mission for that, which is delightful to the people who are fans of that show, is more of the same, please. And I like the idea that they might pick up having wrecked, wrestled with both changes in the characters over the course of the first run of the show, but also maybe they've lived lives for 10 years and likely are not still hanging out with the same toxic boyfriends or whomever.

• 16:58Chris Ryan?

  It's a tribute to the flexibility of the premise of Girls, which is just four kind of friends in various states.

• 17:04Andy Greenwald?

  Increasingly not friends.

• 17:05Chris Ryan?

  I think towards the end, right, Socha was not really down with them.

• 17:09Andy Greenwald?

  Marnie was kind of like a nanny briefly.

• 17:11Chris Ryan?

  Moving back in, right? And then, uh, what's her face? Um, Jessa.

• 17:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 17:18Chris Ryan?

  Was like hooking up with Adam Driver, but.

• 17:20Andy Greenwald?

  That was happening.

• 17:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but not maybe in a relationship with him.

• 17:23Andy Greenwald?

  You, you got some re-watching to do, pal.

• 17:25Chris Ryan?

  I do. I have to get back into it till the late period. Um, you know, we've seen a bunch of shows come back over the last 10 years. Many of them driven by online fan campaigns and.

• 17:38Andy Greenwald?

  Gilmore Girls, Veronica Mars.

• 17:40Chris Ryan?

  And then there are the wish fulfillment things like Bring Back Community or Bring Back, you know, We Got Our Party Down season, we got, uh, Veronica Mars came back once, I thought, not so successfully. Once I thought quite successfully. Sometimes with those shows, it's like, would these guys all be still caterers? You know, it's been a minute.

• 17:59Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, they addressed it, but I can't say that that, but I, but I, I will say, I don't think we ever weighed in on the Party Down reboot, but I think that it lacks some luster.

• 18:07Chris Ryan?

  And I thought like part of that reason was the demand for it was greater than the inspiration, maybe.

• 18:13Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, and I think some of the.

• 18:14Chris Ryan?

  Necessarily specifically about that, but I would be like, sometimes that happens.

• 18:17Andy Greenwald?

  And some of the fondness for that show, for example, was like the Adam Scott, Lizzie Kaplan relationship. And then Lizzie Kaplan was unavailable for the reboot. So you sort of lose one of the special ingredients that made it pop.

• 18:28Chris Ryan?

  Was that like she was doing the Taffy Brody or actor?

• 18:31Andy Greenwald?

  I think she was. I think she was. Yeah, I think she was doing Fleishman is in Trouble.

• 18:33Chris Ryan?

  So I, I have high hopes for Girls because.

• 18:36Andy Greenwald?

  Do you only refer, do you refer to East of Eden as that John Steinbeck show? Like, do you only go by authors?

• 18:42Chris Ryan?

  Forgot what it was called.

• 18:43Andy Greenwald?

  I know.

• 18:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Did you remember?

• 18:44Andy Greenwald?

  Fleishman is in Trouble.

• 18:45Chris Ryan?

  There you go. Uh, but not anymore.

• 18:48Andy Greenwald?

  He's fine.

• 18:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, he was okay at the end.

• 18:49Andy Greenwald?

  He was released at the end.

• 18:50Chris Ryan?

  Um.

• 18:51Andy Greenwald?

  My sense is, and my sense is never wrong about these things. But my sense is, is that that show has grown in estimation a little bit or restored some of its, the fondness for it has grown in time. And I think in my own limited revisits of it, like that was one of the shows that we did for Stick the Landing. Amanda and I recorded it and re-watching it, I got to say, my number one takeaway was all of the discourse stuff was gone from my mind when I was watching it. And what I watched was a really clever comedy. Like, it was really funny in ways that I think got buried under the avalanche of takes at the time. And it was naughty and bumpy and messy, and it wasn't really that good at being a quote unquote TV show, which was also part of the charm.

• 19:35Andy Greenwald?

  And I think that the idea of Lena saying, I have a story to tell for five episodes, I think structure is going to help.

• 19:41Chris Ryan?

  I wonder if New York will be the setting.

• 19:44Andy Greenwald?

  Look where we are sitting right now. New York is not the same.

• 19:47Chris Ryan?

  She doesn't live here anymore, right?

• 19:48Andy Greenwald?

  She, she, like all of us with good sense, lives in London.

• 19:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 19:51Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think there's going to be a scene of her just like walking, like me last week, walking by the Guanas Canal being like, what the fuck? This is where they used to throw handguns and now there's like a bike lane? Trying to be Copenhagen?

• 20:03Chris Ryan?

  How are you doing with bike lanes here?

• 20:04Andy Greenwald?

  I'm, I'm doing all right.

• 20:05Chris Ryan?

  You gotta keep your head on a swivel.

• 20:07Andy Greenwald?

  Well, it's not the bikes, it's the e-bikes that get you.

• 20:09Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 20:10Andy Greenwald?

  You know what I mean? Like, I can, I think I can dodge a, a dude like pedaling with his child in the front.

• 20:16Chris Ryan?

  Sure, but not somebody who's coming 45 miles per hour in the wrong direction.

• 20:20Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, because the Chick-fil-A order is late and the other Chick-fil-A order is still coming. Like, it's, that's the vibe.

• 20:26Chris Ryan?

  This was not an official announcement, but it kind of became one, or it became a semi-official one. It's long been rumored that Nicolas Cage is joining True Detective season...

• 20:35Andy Greenwald?

  Five.

• 20:35Chris Ryan?

  Five, which Isla Lopez is back for this one, and that there would be some sort of New York City or New York City adjacent setting for this season. And then it kind of went into the ether. Nicolas Cage made a New York Comic Con appearance this past week, and kind of let it slip that he was ramping up True Detective stuff. So it sounds like that is also... Just I'm noting this because as HBO moves into the Skydance family of

• 21:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 21:07Chris Ryan?

  of networks and studios, one of the big things that's important to Skydance that they emphasize to everybody is IP.

• 21:15Andy Greenwald?

  And

• 21:15Chris Ryan?

  Yes. They are taking care of their HBO IP here.

• 21:19Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, I mean, it is, I do believe

• 21:22Chris Ryan?

  Jon Snow loading, you know what I mean?

• 21:23Andy Greenwald?

  Well, that movie announcement, like I do believe, I take Casey it as word when he talks about putting the creative first and he's not going to make a show if there's not a reason to make it. I do believe that.

• 21:34Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 21:35Andy Greenwald?

  But like we were talking about, his sort of, his canny moves behind the scenes to be the inevitable choice to be running the streaming television wing of the Skydance Corporation, having a lot of identifiable properties percolating so that if they do get the good script, or if they do get the right star, they can announce them. Like, that's just good business for when someone comes and takes a look at, you know, when David Ellison toured the lot or whatever before this was taken over and you got sort of a peek under the hood, it was very, very advantageous for them.

• 22:09Chris Ryan?

  He's like, we gotta bring girls back.

• 22:10Andy Greenwald?

  That was his number. Honestly, though, from what we understand about him, that might be true.

• 22:14Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 22:15Andy Greenwald?

  You know what I mean?

• 22:15Chris Ryan?

  He's just a guy.

• 22:16Andy Greenwald?

  He's just a guy who thinks the way women dress in the gym is, you know, questionable. But the way girls are on TV is good. He contains multitudes.

• 22:25Chris Ryan?

  So that was it for HBO stuff. As a father of daughters, I wanted to ask you about

• 22:29Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you.

• 22:30Chris Ryan?

  Narnia: The Magician's Nephew, the new film from Greta Gerwig coming,

• 22:36Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 22:36Chris Ryan?

  I believe

• 22:37Andy Greenwald?

  It's early

• 22:38Chris Ryan?

  in February.

• 22:38Andy Greenwald?

  Twenty-seven, yeah.

• 22:39Chris Ryan?

  And

• 22:40Andy Greenwald?

  And Netflix is giving it a theatrical, but it is a Netflix

• 22:43Chris Ryan?

  It was supposed to be a this year thing, I believe.

• 22:45Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 22:46Chris Ryan?

  And it's got its first trailer. Now, we famously had a moment on this podcast several years ago.

• 22:51Andy Greenwald?

  Let me own it.

• 22:52Chris Ryan?

  Go ahead.

• 22:53Andy Greenwald?

  I have learned not to judge Greta Gerwig projects by their first trailers.

• 22:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 22:59Andy Greenwald?

  I will own that. I believe I said the words, "This Barbie film will never make a dime at the box office."

• 23:06Chris Ryan?

  I don't think you went that far, but you were like, woof. You did.

• 23:10Andy Greenwald?

  I was like, yeah, I was like the pound. I was like, "Dog incoming!" I went after it. But I'm accountable for my takes.

• 23:17Chris Ryan?

  Sure. Yeah, I wanted to give you the first

• 23:19Andy Greenwald?

  It seems I was wrong on that.

• 23:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 23:22Andy Greenwald?

  History has decided.

• 23:23Chris Ryan?

  Now, are you gonna play Brewer's Ball here and say, "Maybe this looks good, but I can't say for sure"?

• 23:29Andy Greenwald?

  And are you the Dodgers in this analogy? Just crushing me with inevitability?

• 23:33Chris Ryan?

  I was not blown away by this.

• 23:37Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. Are you, take a step back.

• 23:39Chris Ryan?

  I don't know anything about it.

• 23:40Andy Greenwald?

  No, me either.

• 23:40Chris Ryan?

  I believe it was read to me as a young child, C.S. Lewis.

• 23:44Andy Greenwald?

  By whom?

• 23:45Chris Ryan?

  My father.

• 23:46Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, good. You left that

• 23:47Chris Ryan?

  This lion that was up in my room?

• 23:49Andy Greenwald?

  There was a cabinet, and I kept opening it.

• 23:52Chris Ryan?

  I believe this was read to me, but I have no attachment to it. And vaguely understood

• 23:59Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 24:00Chris Ryan?

  what was happening in the trailer, but, and I knew Aslan or Aslan is the lion.

• 24:05Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, so I can talk on this.

• 24:07Chris Ryan?

  Didn't you just say you never read it?

• 24:09Andy Greenwald?

  No, but because I do the work for this podcast, I did a little research.

• 24:12Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 24:13Andy Greenwald?

  I Googled around a little bit. Yeah, I know nothing about Narnia.

• 24:17Chris Ryan?

  Claude, who's that lion?

• 24:18Andy Greenwald?

  There's some lions, some witches, there's a wardrobe, and some fabulous wardrobe on view in the trailer. The Narnia books began, this is kind of, let me put it in terms you'll understand. It's kind of like Lonesome Dove, in that the most famous book came first in terms of publication, but then later there were prequels written.

• 24:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 24:40Andy Greenwald?

  And so

• 24:40Chris Ryan?

  So this is like Dead Man Walk.

• 24:42Andy Greenwald?

  This is, yes. This is the first book chronologically, but it was written a decade after The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

• 24:48Chris Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 24:49Andy Greenwald?

  And the older character, professor character in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is the kid in this one. And this one

• 24:57Chris Ryan?

  God damn it.

• 24:57Andy Greenwald?

  This one kind of suggests the creation

• 25:00Chris Ryan?

  You're so wise.

• 25:01Andy Greenwald?

  of Narnia.

• 25:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 25:02Andy Greenwald?

  Like, there are many magical worlds, and they're in one, and then there's like a witch or a princess, and she becomes the witch in the other ones. And

• 25:09Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 25:09Andy Greenwald?

  Kieran Hines' voice, which lives rent-free in my head anyway.

• 25:13Chris Ryan?

  Because of Samuel Hamilton.

• 25:14Andy Greenwald?

  And then recently, he's just absolutely, he slays Samuel Hamilton. He's out in Selena's eating, and I don't mean lettuce.

• 25:22Chris Ryan?

  Just that, that sweet, sweet lettuce.

• 25:24Andy Greenwald?

  He is the voice of the young boy in the future.

• 25:29Chris Ryan?

  Oh.

• 25:30Andy Greenwald?

  Do you know who's the voice of the lion?

• 25:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, Meryl Streep.

• 25:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, say it.

• 25:34Chris Ryan?

  Aslan?

• 25:35Andy Greenwald?

  Speak on it.

• 25:36Chris Ryan?

  I just know that they didn't give us full lion.

• 25:39Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 25:40Chris Ryan?

  And I do wonder sometimes with these incredibly VFX-heavy

• 25:44Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 25:45Chris Ryan?

  movies, whether or not, like, the trailers always do them justice, because I think usually we're like, "I gotta show what we've got so far." But a lot of times, I think the final product winds up looking a little bit better.

• 25:56Andy Greenwald?

  I'll say, I'm glad you're saying this delicately. Like, I don't, I'm not gonna judge the movie on this trailer. I've learned from that. I will say that the parts set in our more recognizable world of 1900 London

• 26:10Chris Ryan?

  I think it's been updated to the 50s now.

• 26:13Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, really?

• 26:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think she did that.

• 26:15Andy Greenwald?

  Honestly, London, you know, pre-Canary Wharf, you know, before those great glass towers, it kind of looked the same for a long time. That stuff looked great. And Carey Mulligan is in that stuff, and it looks beautiful, and like, you know, the movie star is doing quirky things, Daniel Craig looking good in his costume.

• 26:30Chris Ryan?

  Emma Mackey looks cool in this.

• 26:31Andy Greenwald?

  When they go into the magical worlds, I gotta say, I found it kind of boring, because all magical worlds kind of look the same. And the idea of kids going into, "Oh, magic is real"? Like, I mean, I've just spent many years of my life working on shows where kids are like, "Magic is real."

• 26:47Chris Ryan?

  A question.

• 26:48Andy Greenwald?

  I get it. Yeah.

• 26:49Chris Ryan?

  What's your number one magical world?

• 26:51Andy Greenwald?

  Wow, okay, huh. What do you define as a magical world?

• 26:54Chris Ryan?

  Well, you know, I would say personally, for me, in terms of just movies, not like in books and stuff, I'd probably go Middle Earth.

• 27:03Andy Greenwald?

  I know you have that thing for Middle Earth.

• 27:05Chris Ryan?

  I have that thing for Peter Jackson's movies.

• 27:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 27:08Chris Ryan?

  And I dig it. Is that a magical world? It's pretty close to

• 27:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, there's wizards in it. What do you mean?

• 27:14Chris Ryan?

  It's magic, but is it magical because like, there's a, you know, a waterfall of gumdrops or whatever?

• 27:20Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, like a Willy Wonka world?

• 27:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 27:22Andy Greenwald?

  My magical world is Broad Street after the Eagles won the Super Bowl in 2024. That's my magical world.

• 27:31Chris Ryan?

  Setting off fireworks in your pants and stuff.

• 27:33Andy Greenwald?

  Just, just, just every light pole near my parents' apartment greased within an inch of its light. No, I mean, and they licensed Stairway to Heaven for this, which apparently has not been done. Like, they don't, the remaining Zeps don't let that out lightly. So clearly, we're making this an event, and Greta Gerwig just continues to surprise with every movie she makes. So it'll be interesting if the metier of this is, she's doing a contemporary, big-budget, CGI-addled

• 28:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 28:02Andy Greenwald?

  adventure. So what is she, so what's the special sauce that elevates it? In the past, it's been her. It's been her point of view. It's been the way she writes characters. And so we're not gonna get that in a trailer that is aimed at the widest possible audience.

• 28:15Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 28:16Andy Greenwald?

  So we'll see. But it was a, I would say it was a strange look, because maybe this is foolish of me, but I expected something that looked, I expected a more visually surprising experience.

• 28:28Chris Ryan?

  We'll keep our eye on Narnia.

• 28:29Andy Greenwald?

  That is what we, as men nearing the end of their 40s, should do. Just monitoring the situation in Narnia.

• 28:36Chris Ryan?

  From behind these wardrobe doors.

• 28:38Andy Greenwald?

  From, just peering through, if you will, on these children in their magical world.

• 29:41Speaker 06

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• 30:14Speaker 01

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• 30:42Chris Ryan?

  So for everybody listening, this is spoilers for this week's fifth episode of the sixth season of Slow Horses. That's certainly turning the temperature up on the pot on the stove, bringing it to a boil, if you will.

• 30:55Andy Greenwald?

  I will.

• 30:56Chris Ryan?

  When I mentioned earlier in the year that I put my hand up and said I did binge these screeners, so I couldn't help myself, I talked about how I felt like this was the most brutal season of the show so far.

• 31:10Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 31:11Chris Ryan?

  And part of that was related to Co, but part of it was related to the fight that we see in this episode. And, you know.

• 31:19Andy Greenwald?

  In the opening moments.

• 31:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, like there have been, there have been scuffles, you know, in Slow Horses, and there have been famous kind of kills and funny set pieces, but it just felt very bare-knuckled and dangerous. And I think that that is something that I feel has been brought to the show, has been heightened in this show this year, is the possibility that nobody is safe, that this is really getting, we're in London, this is territorial, pushing by the Russians, obviously. And I think in Kyle Soler, and forgive me for not knowing the woman assassin's name, their characters, they're like sharks, man.

• 32:03Andy Greenwald?

  The actress's name is Myanna Buring. She plays Jane, and Kyle Soler, famously Cyril on Andor, plays Jim. Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't know the plot of the books. I've heard chatter that this series is diverging more than others have in the telling of it.

• 32:22Chris Ryan?

  It's combining things.

• 32:23Andy Greenwald?

  It's combining two, but that it's not, even the parts that are drawn from one in particular aren't as accurate as they have been, not accurate as.

• 32:30Chris Ryan?

  Faithful.

• 32:31Andy Greenwald?

  Faithful. But I do feel like there's a lot of credit to begin with, to your point, has to go to McCarran in the novel, because it is a challenge to make something feel stakesy when your books are about rejects who don't get within sniffing distance of the real shit. So the fact that there's this, I think, frankly brilliant construction of the wrong list was leaked, and so the wrong agents are being hunted, and then the person whose name was intentionally leaked is someone with this deep connection to River and to everything. It's just, it's a beautiful construction that puts these characters who are not fit for major leagues on the field. And the brutality of that scene was

• 33:11Andy Greenwald?

  also, again, it's like, it's how you set up the dominos at the start, where, other than Co, who was good at fighting, apparently not good enough, Sid and River are the most park-worthy agents that have ever been in Slow House, right? And so putting them in the role of people who have to actually do this stuff made sense. But again, there was, I think, the way that the season has made the Jim and Jane figures feel inevitable in a real, like, T-1000 sort of way.

• 33:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 33:44Andy Greenwald?

  Was really, really effective, and yet it's still Slow Horses. So when the confrontation finally comes, it is by a river or lake, sorry, it's by a lakeside, that, I mean, anyone who's driven in England, it isn't from there, when there's a sign that says, "Area of unnatural beauty," or like, "Of outstanding natural appearance." It's so formal. And Jane says that in the episode, so it's like, it's still Slow Horses in it. Yeah, and then Mick Jagger started singing, after they drown a man while he fights.

• 34:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 34:16Andy Greenwald?

  For his life.

• 34:17Chris Ryan?

  Do you feel like you have your hands around the Sid plotline?

• 34:22Andy Greenwald?

  In terms of where her allegiances lie, or whether she really did something.

• 34:25Chris Ryan?

  I thought like her phone call and her experience with Diana, and this was really cool, because it gives a little bit of a peek. Usually, outside of the Slow Horses, we really only get the dogs in terms of other elements of the park and other elements of the service. And this was a depiction of a working spy taking orders. Now, obviously, she has some misgivings about what is happening after a while, but her being offered up to Russia as basically a make-good, but would be bargained for shortly after. Not only is it just like Diana's got a lot of debt she's paying off right now, but it was also like an indication that not everyone treats this job with the cynicism that the horses do.

• 35:07Andy Greenwald?

  What the show has done this season with Kristen Scott Thomas and the Taverner character is pretty astonishing, because as we've said week to week, the show works, man. Like, it just knows how to be itself, and everybody plays a role and doesn't break character, and there's a lot of fun to be had by just shuffling the deck every season and putting them in different, putting them in different groupings. I didn't, what's the Shaq meme? Like, I was unfamiliar with your game.

• 35:33Chris Ryan?

  I was unfamiliar with your game, yeah.

• 35:34Andy Greenwald?

  I genuinely did not think that the show had the fortitude to say, a character that we have seen through one lens actually has no bottom, like that there is a different moral calculus for someone in the big chair.

• 35:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 35:51Andy Greenwald?

  And would see it through. Because one of the things about this episode, in her confrontation, like in her secret hearing, she does not back down, and she makes a case that I would imagine that in these rooms, or in more serious spy shows, we hear people make all the time, and is not too dissimilar from what I would imagine a Jackson Lamb might say in a similar role, if you were ever showered and cleaned off and sobered up and promoted to do it. So the fact that it is both like willing to put her there, and then keep her there, and hang her there, and not turn it into a, well, she's the big bad now, now we have to get her. I mean, maybe that's forthcoming, but I'm not sure that it is. And because of that ambiguity, we get another classic Kristen Gary banger,

• 36:33Andy Greenwald?

  while he's going through her gift basket, you know, of the two of them playing off of each other.

• 36:38Chris Ryan?

  That Kristen Gary dynamic is really cool, because, you know, we've seen multiple people in that first chair corrupt themselves, and, you know, Diana's had plenty of time to observe and kind of see what to do and what not to do. And she almost can't help herself. You know, she takes this quote-unquote "investment," and as Jackson says, like, now they own you. You know, if you can't take money and just be like, that's just a donation to national security. But Jackson has that luxury, because he is not exposed in any way, and not playing in like, real stakes anymore. And so I feel like the show subtly

• 37:20Chris Ryan?

  is asking questions about, you know, what comes with responsibility in a very cool way. There's also something that's been really interesting about spy shows recently, which I think is directly tied to headlines in real newspapers and developments in the real world, which is the rise of private corporations or non-nation-state actors.

• 37:44Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 37:44Chris Ryan?

  As major players, if not outright villains, in these stories. So in, certainly in Lioness, in this series, this series of Slow Horses, and to some extent in The Agency, you see extra governmental bodies popping up and being like, well, we've got at least the financial muscle to compete.

• 38:06Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 38:06Chris Ryan?

  And, you know, maybe you can, as with Slow Horses, you can chart that back to government investment from somebody, somewhere.

• 38:14Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I mean, think about, even today, we're recording on a Wednesday, and one of the headlines is about how Elon Musk has like.

• 38:20Chris Ryan?

  Turned off the internet.

• 38:20Andy Greenwald?

  Turned off the internet for Ukraine. And like, that's insane. That is insane that one real-life supervillain can just do stuff like that.

• 38:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 38:28Andy Greenwald?

  And is in the headlines along with whatever Russia and the United States are doing. So it is paying attention to it.

• 38:33Chris Ryan?

  It's fucking crazy that like, a guy can do, like, regardless of the fact that he did do it, it is, it's crazy that like, one guy's like, nope, I'm out, because Ukraine also, I mean, if we're gonna do it.

• 38:44Andy Greenwald?

  Let's do it.

• 38:45Chris Ryan?

  Ukraine also bombed some, like, bot farms in Russia.

• 38:49Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, so what are you, do the windhorse fingers? What are you trying to say?

• 38:53Andy Greenwald?

  Say it.

• 38:53Chris Ryan?

  I just know that my engagements never been higher.

• 38:57Andy Greenwald?

  That's right. Your fans are reaching out across social.

• 39:01Chris Ryan?

  My real fans.

• 39:01Andy Greenwald?

  I'm definitely more enthusiastic because as I've said, I think this season is exceptional. And it's exceptional for the sharpness of the writing and the elevation of the stakes. And the, you know, like, the first time that Hugo Weaving's Harkness character was on the show, he was fine, but he was kind of mustache twirly, like, ah, there's a big, bad origin story.

• 39:17Chris Ryan?

  Reading super spies, yeah.

• 39:19Andy Greenwald?

  Now, like, the fact that we don't really know what he's doing is a win, that he's just another figure on the game board while they sort it out. Similarly, like, as cool as Slow House in the Rain is, they're all out of it. So everyone is at play, where at previous seasons, some characters have been stuck there fielding phone calls, or being bored, or being grounded by Jackson. Like, everyone is in the field in a way that's really fun. I don't know if that's repeatable, but it is really exceptional. And I'll just say, like, you know, I had dinner with a friend who works in the TV business and spends all of her life making shows, reading scripts, watching shows, all of it. And the thing she said about Slow Horses that stuck with me, which really speaks to not just how exceptional this season is, but how unique the show is, and one of the reasons

• 40:03Andy Greenwald?

  why it is overrepresented at the Emmys every year, is she's like, it's the one show I look forward to, and I don't look at my phone. It is pleasure. It is just dialed in on how to engage you in a way that feels as old fashioned as the pit is. I'm not going to be tempted. I want to watch this. I'm looking forward to it.

• 40:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and they also have like this skeleton key of, just when you start to like, go beyond missing it to, oh yeah, Slow Horses, it comes back.

• 40:32Andy Greenwald?

  That said, if there's one criticism, but I'll save it, it's not, it's more of a light concern trolling.

• 40:39Andy Greenwald?

  Six episodes? Incredibly successful for their production model. But I do, I guess I find myself wishing for a Slow Horses season that broke out of the rhythm of the six episodes, just because of the way.

• 40:54Chris Ryan?

  Like the case of the season kind of thing?

• 40:55Andy Greenwald?

  Not just the case of the season, but the cadence of the episodes, I think, do match pretty closely, season to season. I like this season more. I like the story more.

• 41:03Chris Ryan?

  That is true.

• 41:04Andy Greenwald?

  But the way the fourth episode into the fifth, into the sixth, tend to go, feels very familiar, which is probably part of the special sauce.

• 41:11Chris Ryan?

  There's still adaptations, and there's a lot of like, this is a novel convention, a novel with like, a piece of fiction convention, where, once it's time, it's go time. People become incredibly candid, and you're like, I've always wanted to own a piece of an intelligence service, or whatever.

• 41:29Andy Greenwald?

  Who among us, yeah.

• 41:30Chris Ryan?

  Speaking of adaptations, let's wrap up our thoughts on East of Eden. In her interview with Alison Davis in Vulture, Zoe Kazan talked a little bit, very briefly, about having originally plotted this out as eight episodes. And it was reduced to seven, I imagine, for budget reasons, or what have you.

• 41:48Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 41:50Chris Ryan?

  I think you can feel that a bit in the Cal and Aaron stuff, which I, maybe in the beginning of our conversations about East of Eden, mentioned as like, in my mind, being the main characters of the novel. And I think that was recency bias of like, that's what I most remember from the novel, because they are the latter two thirds of the book, or the latter third of the book, or what have you.

• 42:14Andy Greenwald?

  And also the James Dean of it, right? Like, isn't that?

• 42:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I mean, certainly that Cal character has been sort of made an icon by Dean's performance.

• 42:26Chris Ryan?

  In this show, I think the chess pieces get moved around a little bit. Not only do you have Kathy, and a much more penetrating psychological investigation into like, what makes Kathy Kathy? And not merely saying, she is a product of original sin, she is like a primordial dark ooze coming out of the ground, but she is somebody who may have been sexually abused as a young child, has definitely always been taken advantage of by men, and has turned that around into this pretty evil vibe that she gives off, especially when she's wearing all black, and is rocked out of her mind on morphine.

• 43:04Andy Greenwald?

  That is a wild aura, that she's walking around slowly to sit.

• 43:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Also, came to the wrong state, if you wanted to avoid sunlight.

• 43:11Andy Greenwald?

  It's fair.

• 43:13Chris Ryan?

  This last couple of episodes also introduces a non-book convention, which is Mike Face Charles.

• 43:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 43:21Chris Ryan?

  Character as a devil on the shoulder of, sort of, manifestation of Kathy's subconscious. And I would just say that, like, working backwards from the very end, and we're gonna spoil the last few episodes of East of Eden now, if that matters to you. I was incredibly moved by the very ending.

• 43:46Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 43:47Chris Ryan?

  And there were about half a dozen things that happened in this show, that I felt like were pretty breathtaking.

• 43:57Chris Ryan?

  Whomley's performance, Kieran Heinz's performance, take your pick of a dozen Florence Pugh moments.

• 44:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 44:04Chris Ryan?

  I thought Abbott was really good, in a very, very, very hard role. Adam Trask ages quite a bit, goes through an old man's life early in his life, and then has a youth in his middle age, and then becomes.

• 44:18Andy Greenwald?

  That's goals, honestly.

• 44:19Chris Ryan?

  But it's like a beautiful character, and he's able to give it some real life and some real sadness and sorrow.

• 44:28Andy Greenwald?

  I know this might sound odd, but like, when we've talked in the past about what makes genre movies, fantasy movies, comic book movies successful historically, it's often casting Shakespearean-trained British actors to deliver the monologues of nonsense, like in Ian McKellen or something. So it just grounds it in some reality, because these actors are used to taking totemic statements and making them feel lived in. And to me, Christopher Abbott's performance in this is analogous to that.

• 44:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 44:57Andy Greenwald?

  He is not British, I'm sure he's done Shakespeare in his time, but there is such a, sort of, subtle power in his plainspokenness and the simplicity, I'm sure not internally, but the external performance is very, very straightforward and plainspoken, and it gathers power across the hours to me, like a snowball rolling down a hill, so that at the end, when he is voiceless, it's almost incomprehensibly intense and powerful. It is a really unique performance.

• 45:30Chris Ryan?

  I thought that, what did you think of the kids who wound up playing Cal and Aaron in that storyline?

• 45:36Andy Greenwald?

  So this is Joseph Zada, and another child of one of our friends, Kate Winslet's son.

• 45:45Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 45:45Andy Greenwald?

  That's how I think of that, sorry, that's just how I think of her. Do you know her as something else?

• 45:51Andy Greenwald?

  That.

• 45:52Chris Ryan?

  Jo Anders.

• 45:52Andy Greenwald?

  Jo Anders, yeah. And Jo Anders was in Cape Fear.

• 45:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 45:57Andy Greenwald?

  Recently as well. I thought they were really good. I thought they were really interesting. I think I'm with you in the sense that, I don't know whether it's TV brain, or the way that the story was broken across seven episodes, that sometimes I had trouble shifting, like, shifting from characters to characters, as to who we're paying attention to and why. I mean, it is a unique challenge, that I think they did a remarkable job with, considering, of introducing these characters as babies, casting them differently as kids, having these guys show up as those characters later, and having so much to carry late in the game. I thought they were really good. I thought they were particularly powerful, both of those kids in their reactions. Jo Anders at the brothel, you know, it's a wordless, and delivers on what must be a very challenging day of shooting.

• 46:41Andy Greenwald?

  And I thought Joseph Zada at the end also, like, had the right amount of hunger for humanity that felt, like, that connected with. I gotta say, like, I'm with you. I was, I don't want to say I was skeptical, but there were times in the early going, when, and I joked about it last week, where I was like, the majesty of this is so, it was shot knowing it's important. And that sometimes makes me recoil a little bit.

• 47:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:11Andy Greenwald?

  Like, has it earned that, like, that pomp and that circumstance? And ultimately, yeah, it did. It fucking did. Because what Zoe Kazan did here with her collaborators, and the direction was beautiful. Gart Davis, we talked about, but these last episodes were directed by Laura Declaramtonaire.

• 47:30Andy Greenwald?

  They made the case for why the book is timeless, to me. Because sometimes we read old books that are important or canonical.

• 47:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:40Andy Greenwald?

  And you're like, well, I'm reading this because I'm supposed to. And then the most beautiful thing that can happen when you read those books, you know, whether you're in school or like long past school, is suddenly you see yourself in these texts and you're like, oh, wait, we've always been here. We're still alive.

• 47:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:52Andy Greenwald?

  There's something like that is eternal and essential. And there are moments watching East of Eden where I'm like, ah, yes, my sons Caleb and Aaron, surely you shall both be good. And we're like, okay.

• 48:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 48:02Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, can we fast forward this? But what she did in this TV show was give me these moments where like the humanity and like the connective, like we are all emotionally alive here and we've all have challenging relationships with our fathers or siblings or whatever, and made it feel like hot again.

• 48:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 48:19Andy Greenwald?

  Like, there were moments that caught me, knocked me sideways. Not even the most expected ones. Like, not even a moment of Florence Pugh acting her ass off or whatever, but just like a simple moment of Hoon Lee arguing for what a father should or could do, you know? Or this idea at the very end that it brings up to of like, do not reject him. Break this cycle.

• 48:39Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:40Andy Greenwald?

  I was like, god damn. Like, that is... I mean, your man John Steinbeck was... He was smoking on that legacy pack.

• 48:48Chris Ryan?

  No, I mean...

• 48:48Andy Greenwald?

  Like, he was deep into what makes people human. And he tried to do it with this book. And Zoe Kazan reminded us what he was doing and gave it to us visually. And that's remarkable.

• 48:57Chris Ryan?

  I'm trying to think about whether or not this production would have been, not necessarily improved, but what would have happened if they had brought... The character of Aaron.

• 49:06Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 49:06Chris Ryan?

  Uh, is certainly more spiritual than I think he's depicted.

• 49:11Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:12Chris Ryan?

  Um, in the book, he's like training to be an Episcopalian priest, maybe? I can't remember the... exactly. But like, there's definitely an air of like... It's more embellished in the book that Cal has like that...

• 49:26Andy Greenwald?

  He's gonna become an Episcopalian priest.

• 49:28Chris Ryan?

  And Cal has that dog in him. That Cal is going out at night, that Cal is getting in trouble.

• 49:33Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:33Chris Ryan?

  That, that move in the show, I think there's like a dinner scene. And it's just like, oh, Cal, why can't you be more like your brother? And you're so... you're not applying yourself.

• 49:44Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, that was...

• 49:45Chris Ryan?

  It feels a little sudden. In the book, it is not sudden. It's like, these guys are growing up and you can feel them being pulled in their different parental and...

• 49:53Andy Greenwald?

  And that's also why I think that...

• 49:54Chris Ryan?

  Angels and demons.

• 49:55Andy Greenwald?

  Abbott had such a hard job. Because a lot of it fell to him to being like, I like you and not you, much like my father Tracy Letts said.

• 50:02Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 50:02Andy Greenwald?

  Hours ago. But for whatever reason, in his performance, he sold me on it because I felt the, the way, I mean, the way all of us, even those, even on our best days, are kind of doomed to repeat some history or model behavior on things. Like, it felt very human to me, not just expositional that he was behaving in that way.

• 50:19Chris Ryan?

  So there's that element. And I think what Kazan did was focus on this idea of Tim Schell, with this idea of the ability to transcend or move past inherited behaviors, inherited trauma, and just your inheritance. Um, and that you can move forward and that, you know, your future progeny don't have to, don't have to live under the same sort of yoke of your, of your past. And by the end of that, I think the lead character is very articulate about being like, you have to talk to this kid.

• 50:53Andy Greenwald?

  Right now.

• 50:53Chris Ryan?

  Because he is the last of your line. Like, this is it, you know? Your brother is dead, your other son is dead. Like, you know, we are, we are, this is it for us. And you have to like, let him go and let him be his own man. And I thought that was quite beautiful in a way that didn't overly rely on the Old Testament stuff of the book or whatever. So any complaints I had about like, oh, I wish we got a little bit more depth of, of, depth of field with the story with Cal and Aaron. And the thing I had kind of completely forgotten, but had been reminded of by Kieran Heinz's performances, is the Hamiltons make up half the book.

• 51:33Andy Greenwald?

  I, I...

• 51:34Chris Ryan?

  And I think that's just like, one of the bravest, smartest things she could have done. Is just be like, this is not gonna be a 16-episode show. Things that work in novels and paralleling these two families is not gonna be as effective as we're going all the way towards this moment of these three guys in this room as one of them passes away. And that has to be the end.

• 51:55Andy Greenwald?

  And what Sam, but what Sam brings to the world is vital. But we have to be selective about what it is. And with a vision of what it could be to be a man in this world or to be a father or to be...

• 52:06Chris Ryan?

  What makes you rich, you know what I mean?

• 52:08Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 52:09Chris Ryan?

  And even if you could give somebody all the love in the world, but they could also kind of maybe have a failed life.

• 52:13Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, so I, I mean, I, we've copped to it, but I feel like I need to cop to it more that like, I, my memory of this book was almost nonexistent.

• 52:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think it's...

• 52:20Andy Greenwald?

  I read it, I read it in high school. And my, my, this past weekend, my daughter wants, wants to read it. So we bought a copy. And I was like thumbing through it a little bit and trying to jog my memory. And, you know, the scene that...

• 52:32Chris Ryan?

  Your daughter just pushing Infinite Jest aside for a minute to get into East of Eden?

• 52:36Andy Greenwald?

  No, it was Age of Innocence, actually. But she's, uh, but, but, uh... So I, last week, I was like, I feel like the show was at its best when it was really like inventing possibilities for Lee and Samuel Richardson. That's from the book, man. I, I was wrong. I was like, John Steinbeck was ahead of his game.

• 52:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 52:53Andy Greenwald?

  And Zoe Kazan was correct to lift this up and, and celebrate the scene. But it, look, I mean, Kieran Heinz is incredible in this. And like, he makes, his presence is felt in the entire series, which is why you cast an actor of his caliber. So even though the part is curtailed, like, the, the legacy in the shadow remains. But I, I don't know if we would have enough time on this podcast or our next podcast to talk about Hoon Lee in this performance.

• 53:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 53:20Andy Greenwald?

  It is a absolute star-making, jaw-dropping, like revelatory, deeply, deeply moving enmeshment of actor and character and creator and moment.

• 53:34Chris Ryan?

  Not to be corny, I've seen him talk about this. And he's like, I was born to play this part. And it's like, that's true, you can see it, that's what that looks like.

• 53:41Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 53:41Chris Ryan?

  People say that, be like, I was born to be...

• 53:43Andy Greenwald?

  It's really special.

• 53:44Chris Ryan?

  The Winter Soldier or whatever. But like, he, he was born to play this part.

• 53:48Andy Greenwald?

  And it doesn't matter if awards don't come, but if this is what Emmys are for, honestly, is for what he does. The show doesn't work without his performance. It doesn't work without the slow, subtle build of his performance that can take a character from the age that he is when we meet him to the age that he is meant to be when we leave him, so that we understand, like, in lesser hands, and I mean this for a creator too, like, his detour, his great try of going back to Chinatown in San Francisco, could feel like a added-on appendage or something as opposed to essential for the person that he is at the end and the way he speaks to the people around him. And, I mean, it's just, it's just, it's, it's an amazing, and it's a moving performance.

• 54:29Chris Ryan?

  Let me ask you this.

• 54:29Andy Greenwald?

  I feel choked up talking about what he does on screen.

• 54:32Chris Ryan?

  I wanna, I mean, I remember that, I, another one of the breathtaking moments of the series that we touched on before was the, the scene with him and Samuel, like, when he finds out like, that's not how he talks.

• 54:43Andy Greenwald?

  That's the one, yeah.

• 54:44Chris Ryan?

  Um, let's not Monday morning quarterback it too much. But is there a world in which that Lee episode that shows him going into San Francisco, trying to find this old scholar that he had used to work with?

• 54:59Andy Greenwald?

  That's his father.

• 55:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And, oh, right.

• 55:02Andy Greenwald?

  It's Father Figure, but yes.

• 55:03Chris Ryan?

  Father Figure, yeah.

• 55:04Andy Greenwald?

  But the, the man who raised him.

• 55:05Chris Ryan?

  And they were gonna open a bookstore and he's just like, how do you think I bought books? Like, I've always been down, went down with the dark side. And it's an amazing, amazing episode. Do you think that in a different world, on a different maybe execution of the series, could have been a roadmap to the Lee episode, a Cal episode, an Aaron episode? Like, something to basically flesh out that second half of the season when there's maybe not as much character interaction? In the books, I guess.

• 55:37Andy Greenwald?

  I, I don't, I mean, I don't know the answer. I think so, but, but I feel like you're asking the question because you'd like more...

• 55:42Chris Ryan?

  Is there a 10-episode East of Eden?

• 55:44Andy Greenwald?

  Probably, but I didn't feel, so there were moments when...

• 55:46Chris Ryan?

  You weren't like, I, what I really want is three more hours of this.

• 55:49Andy Greenwald?

  I definitely know. Not just because, not because I wasn't enjoying it, but because I felt like it got... I actually think the cuts were kind of amazing. I mean, I'm, I'm curious about what was left out or what she intended or what she had to collapse in order to do this. I felt like there, the Kate story was a little bit done before it was done.

• 56:08Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:09Andy Greenwald?

  It doesn't mean that Pugh wasn't incredible. I mean, I think that for as much attention as she's going to get, and rightly so, for the first three episodes, first four episodes of her work, the scene after Aaron sees her and when she is crying but turns it into a devil, like an insane, desperate, hysterical, in this, like, the, the emotional sense, not in the judgmental sense, laugh that everyone in her hell pit joins in on.

• 56:31Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 56:32Andy Greenwald?

  That's the, that's the moment for me.

• 56:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 56:34Andy Greenwald?

  Like, that's what, that's the whole, that's where it's all been going. So I didn't feel like there was a lot left on the table because so much of the story is like these big, literally biblical shorthand strokes of like, this is what happens. So we could have spent more time with Aaron and Cal, but also, you kind of get it.

• 56:55Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:55Andy Greenwald?

  You know, and you, you also understand the cadence of the first few episodes where it's like, could we have had more Mike Feist? Like, yes, and they manufactured something just to get him back on screen, which was cool because he was great. But you also kind of get it. And that the story ultimately is about seeing repetition.

• 57:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 57:13Andy Greenwald?

  And then having the chain broken more than anything else. And I think that more time spent with them maybe would have robbed that last moment of its impact.

• 57:20Chris Ryan?

  Do you think, uh, this will be a test to see if a show that comes out, when did this air? Early October, was it? Early October is when it aired, can keep its legs for Emmys next year?

• 57:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I think that's an interesting question. I, I would imagine it will, both because of its excellence, but also because Netflix will not let voters forget. Like, there will be a big press push. Big panels moderated by The Ringer's Chris Ryan, no doubt, with, with all the boys, all the Trask boys, just hanging. But like, you know, Philly snack foods with the Trask boys or whatever.

• 57:54Chris Ryan?

  Who are your guys? Yeah. Did you, I've been watching, uh... There's been a lot of like Flo Pugh, Mike Flo Pugh Abbott videos of them doing the usual like, try a wing, play with a puppy, take a lie detector test, kind of promo stuff.

• 58:15Chris Ryan?

  Chris Abbott, man, I love you, dog. You gotta get used to it.

• 58:18Andy Greenwald?

  He's uncomfortable with this.

• 58:20Chris Ryan?

  I don't think he goes, I think he takes these things at very face value.

• 58:23Andy Greenwald?

  He seems like a serious fellow.

• 58:24Chris Ryan?

  And so Prof X is coming, you're gonna be on that promo tour for a hot second?

• 58:29Andy Greenwald?

  Totally.

• 58:30Chris Ryan?

  Warm up to hot ones. You know, like get, get used to that vibe.

• 58:33Andy Greenwald?

  I think that he has made, I mean, yes, I think he has a long runway to be ready for the world that he has kept at arm's length and is now going to join.

• 58:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 58:43Andy Greenwald?

  He really is that good of an actor, so I hope that he is able to navigate the nonsense.

• 58:47Chris Ryan?

  They're all great.

• 58:48Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, Pugh is generational at this point, and for her age and what she's doing and the way that she does it, it's, it's exciting. To your point about like whether it has legs, sometimes, you know, I keep trying to reach for these stupid, maybe it's because it's, you know, it's election season, but it's like the moments when like history and politics rhyme or whatever, like there's a, sometimes it's cool to see.

• 59:11Chris Ryan?

  The moment when Ken Paxton goes to Dubai.

• 59:13Andy Greenwald?

  Do it. You haven't done Ken in a minute. You don't want to do it?

• 59:16Chris Ryan?

  I think Kathy had a good point. She's a small business woman.

• 59:20Andy Greenwald?

  And yet, does he like women? So I think it's complicated, but.

• 59:25Chris Ryan?

  I think they're equally hostile towards humanity.

• 59:27Andy Greenwald?

  Fair.

• 59:28Chris Ryan?

  Kathy.

• 59:29Andy Greenwald?

  I think they have the same impact on the world. Yeah, I agree.

• 59:32Chris Ryan?

  That Kathy got raw deal.

• 59:34Andy Greenwald?

  See? Come on, I want to draw this out of you. They're already coming for you. The bots are coming.

• 59:39Chris Ryan?

  No, the, I'm saying.

• 59:41Andy Greenwald?

  Get them from both sides. Both sides them.

• 59:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, that's right. That's right.

• 59:44Andy Greenwald?

  When things end up on the right platform or right network, like that is a silly inside baseball kind of thing to say, like excellence is excellence no matter what, but there have been, like, for example, Station 11 should have been on HBO, and I feel like maybe that would have helped it not only be seen by more people, but then maybe the, the, the sequels that, that Patrick wanted to make maybe would have had a better chance.

• 1:00:06Chris Ryan?

  Maybe. I mean, I think the very.

• 1:00:06Andy Greenwald?

  We don't know.

• 1:00:07Chris Ryan?

  Timing that made Station 11 seem so prescient was also difficult for some people to be like, do I want to watch a show about a pandemic?

• 1:00:13Andy Greenwald?

  A million percent. But I, but I, I'll say that like if you think about this show and its success and how it was made and how people are engaging with it, it is hard to argue that it would have been better served anywhere else. I'm not saying it is not quality enough to be on HBO, but HBO doesn't really do things that are this straightforward and earnest. I think they usually like to do something that is a little bit zaggy or a wrinkle or slightly different, you know, or if they're going to do a novel, they're not going to do like the most iconic one. They're going to do Mildred Pierce or something like.

• 1:00:45Chris Ryan?

  But in the same way that the pitch showed us that there is like a huge appetite for an elevated procedural, like, week to week series, I think that East of Eden might be a, like, you know what, some people just really like a, a very moving, deeply felt, well-done story.

• 1:01:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I think the comparison is more Shogun, honestly. But I think the other reason why Netflix has an advantage here is that everyone has Netflix. And they, and in this case, this is not an easy binge watch. I basically watched it in two, two binges on airplanes, which I loved and the people around me had questions about. But, but I think that its momentum is definitely helped by people being able to engage with it as they want to. I think week to week on this may, it may have sunk it in terms of like, we don't know what we're getting next week. It's going to be quite different and it's heavy.

• 1:01:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and the shows weren't ending on like cliffhangers, really, you know, like they were.

• 1:01:35Andy Greenwald?

  Because the show, because the show is based on some cursory, it's assuming some cursory knowledge either of the book or of the Bible to get you through it.

• 1:01:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:42Andy Greenwald?

  I think like it wouldn't have fit on Apple because Apple doesn't have the same audience or reach. So I think that it's a good moment of Netflix flexing a muscle that maybe it didn't know it had and reaping the rewards for it, which will extend, I think, into Emmy season because Netflix can pay for that.

• 1:01:56Chris Ryan?

  And last one is, do you leave this series with your hopes higher or lower for Lonesome Dove?

• 1:02:04Andy Greenwald?

  Great question. Higher.

• 1:02:05Chris Ryan?

  Higher for me as well.

• 1:02:07Andy Greenwald?

  And we say this for people who don't know, Zoe Kazan and Jeb Stuart, her collaborator on this, are making Lonesome Dove for Netflix.

• 1:02:13Chris Ryan?

  The only thing I would note is that she obviously had to make some decisions about how she was going to get this story on the screen. I could see Lonesome Dove being multiple seasons.

• 1:02:23Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's.

• 1:02:24Chris Ryan?

  Like Lonesome Dove, not.

• 1:02:25Andy Greenwald?

  The book itself. Not just they're gonna do the second season, it'll be Streets of Laredo.

• 1:02:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:29Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I think anything is in play, from what I understand, but I, for me, it comes back to that thing of like, I want an adapter who makes choices. I want an active hand because I don't want, I don't, I don't want the book read back to me and I don't want someone who's so worried about pleasing everyone all the time that you end up with mush. Like, I want someone decisive. I want an authorial voice.

• 1:02:52Chris Ryan?

  Well, ever since Yandex got blown up, nobody's talking about what Green Lanterns are supposed to do, you know?

• 1:02:56Andy Greenwald?

  It's tough, right? But the thing that I was saying before that I think she just, it just blew me away that she was able to do, because it's even hard to articulate, which is like, there were moments that made me feel the way great literature feels. It connected me to like, just plugged me into the source in a really rich feeling way. And if she can bring some of that over to Lonesome Dove, then we're in business because as the original mini-series proved, like, the story rips. Like, people are going to like the story, but can she bring some of the stuff that makes most men and women weep? Can she bring that, and not just the sad parts?

• 1:03:33Chris Ryan?

  I think she can.

• 1:03:34Andy Greenwald?

  I think she can. I think that's the muscle that we really saw getting flexed here.

• 1:03:38Chris Ryan?

  Thank you for joining me here today. Thanks to Wargon for producing us here and Kai for producing us in California. We will be back on Monday with, I think, a special guest, and then next Thursday, we're gonna do our Big Fat TV roundup at some point.

• 1:03:50Andy Greenwald?

  Big Fat TV roundup?

• 1:03:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, because we've got a lot of stuff to talk about. That's new.

• 1:03:54Andy Greenwald?

  I, I, your silence.

• 1:03:55Chris Ryan?

  And by that point, end of Slow Horses.

• 1:03:57Andy Greenwald?

  Your silence on HBO's Crazy Rich Asians series is deafening, by the way.

• 1:04:01Chris Ryan?

  I just missed the cut, making the rundown today.

• 1:04:03Andy Greenwald?

  Is it making the Big Fat rundown?

• 1:04:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:05Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, I look forward to that.

• 1:04:06Chris Ryan?

  Thanks, guys. We'll talk to you next week.

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