Office Hours: TikTok vs. Vine, the Value of Writing, and Late Career Transitions

Scott answers a question about what he calls one of the greatest missed opportunities in the history of tech — when Twitter sold Vine. He then takes a question on whether humanities majors can still succeed in business, and offers advice to someone thinking about leaving her established media career for the tech industry. Music: https://www.davidcuttermusic.com / @dcuttermusic Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Scott Galloway?

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• 0:49Speaker 01

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• 1:26Scott Galloway?

  Welcome to the Prof G Pod's Office Hours. This is the part of the show where we answer your questions about business, big tech, entrepreneurship, and whatever else is on your mind. If you'd like to submit a question, please visit officehours.profgmedia.com. Again, that's officehours.profgmedia.com. First question.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  Hello, Professor Galloway. My name is Sarah Horst. I'm a filmmaker. I first heard about you from the We Crashed podcast. I'm like, who is this guy talking about? Like, first thing was an incinerator.

• 1:57Speaker 02

  Like, who is this guy? This guy's good. Anyways, I had a question about Vine. Now, Twitter bought Vine. Vine was like TikTok before TikTok. It was the exact same thing. Super short videos, completely user-generated. It was super popular. You know, there were content creators on there who had monetized it, who had followings. And Twitter just shuts it down. This thing that they had bought, replacing it with nothing. TikTok takes the exact same concept, turbocharges it, and now it's taking over the world. Is there any reason with the rise of TikTok to now

• 2:37Speaker 02

  view this as anything but like an all-time moronic, self-inflicted dick punch? I'm really, really inclined to see it that way. Like, this was all back when Jack Dorsey was still, you know, levitating throughout Twitter HQ. So I blame him for all this. Love the pods. Thank you for your time.

• 2:57Speaker 03

  Sarah from We Don't Know Where You're From, you're even more cynical and harsh than I am. So Twitter purchased Vine for thirty million in 2012. And that seems, it almost feels as if it was a bit of an Aqua Kill. That's where the innovation stopped. Videos on the app were restricted to six seconds until they expanded the length in 2016. The longer videos didn't catch on. That year, the app had about 200 million monthly active users. Think about that, 200 million active users. And yet they still decided to shut it down. For perspective, TikTok currently has more than one billion. But I look at it, okay, they were a fifth the size of TikTok and they decided to close it down. It just, it definitely, this will go down as one of the biggest missed opportunities in history. That's the kind of thing that happens when you have a part-time CEO.

• 3:41Speaker 03

  I just, Twitter has been strikingly, it's been the land where innovation goes to die. It's an addictive product. It continues to attract more and more people, become more culturally relevant. But I don't know what the innovation has been, going from 140 to 280 characters. I don't. I can't think of how this, this place or how the product has innovated. Anyways, Twitter announced it was shutting down the app later that year. Why did they shut it down? They said they were struggling to grow the user base. They had trouble monetizing it in 2016. Vine had only captured about 4%. Of all branded social content and they also had pretty serious competition from Snapchat and Instagram. Instagram had introduced 15 second video clips in 2013 and later bumped

• 4:23Speaker 03

  it up to 60 seconds posing a huge competitive challenge to Vine. And as you referenced, lack of leadership, there was a lot of turnover and a lack of a vision for the product at all. So, back then, you can see the argument. We need to focus. Twitter, the core product isn't doing that well. And one of the most powerful things you can do in business and a good strategy is to say, all right, what's really important here? We need to get the core platform right. So, we're going to focus on it. Vine, we don't know what to do with it. It's a distraction. Okay, shut it down. That ends up being what looks like now, an enormous missed opportunity with TikTok, which I think is a phenomenon. I think TikTok's the most ascendant company, tech company of the last 10 years. What do they get right?

• 5:06Speaker 03

  They have this algorithm that based on the number of signals they get from their users, begins immediately calibrating in on things you like that you didn't even know you liked. It ends up, I love watching people get adjusted by chiropractors. I love dogs. I did know that. And I love people talking about social justice issues that also happen to be really hot. I sort of knew that. Anyways, within about 10 minutes, TikTok is serving you a stream of content that absolutely is captivating, entrances you, turns you into an opium addict if their algorithm is opium. I think what people mistake is that while the algorithm's amazing, no one's going to out-algorithm the engineers at Google. But what TikTok has is more signal liquidity. What do I mean by that? When you're watching Netflix, the

• 5:48Speaker 03

  recommendation gets two or three signals an hour. Did you watch it all the way through? Did you decide to watch the next episode? Did you pause it? TikTok, because of the short form nature of the videos, gets hundreds of signals. Did you go to the creator's page? Did you watch it again? Did you pause it? I mean, what did you do? It'll kind of demonstrate how interested you are in that type of content. They immediately use AI or different means of correlating the content you like with like-minded people and start serving you content that is more and more. Captivating. Anyways, I think TikTok is incredible. Obviously, huge victory for them, in my opinion. Incredible strategic thinking with simplicity. One of the most difficult things about business is not what to do, but what not to do. And what did TikTok do?

• 6:31Speaker 03

  It said, "Consumer choice is bad." Supposedly, households in America spend over 10 minutes a day deciding, not watching, deciding what to watch on Netflix. And again, one of our big themes here is that one of the biggest mistakes we make in marketing is believing that choice is a good thing. No, it's not. Choice is a tax. Consumers don't want more choice. They want to be more confident in the choices presented. And the only choice you have to make with TikTok, really, at the end of the day, is to tap on the app. It should be one of the most valuable companies in the world. However, its Achilles heel is painted in red, and specifically, they're linked to the CCP. There is no Chinese company that is separated or not under the control or influence of the CCP. And I've said over and over, I've said repeatedly recently,

• 7:16Speaker 03

  that this is a dangerous existential threat. Why? Because all they would need to do is put their thumb on the scale around certain types of anti-American content. You'd barely even know what happened. And what do you know? We produce a generation of young people that feel less good, more pessimistic about capitalism, democracy, and America. TikTok is a send-in. It's also a threat. It's also a threat. And you're right. You're absolutely right. Twitter shutting down Vine was probably one of the biggest missed opportunities in the history of tech. Thank you for the question. So cynical. So cynical. Have you tried edibles? Question number two.

• 7:51Speaker 04

  Hey, Scott. I'm an English professor at a liberal arts college in Virginia, and I get a lot of students who want to major in English or another humanities field, but are afraid they'll never be able to make any money with a humanities degree. I've heard you say here and on Pivot that the main value add of a college degree is certification, not education. Would you go so far as to say that it doesn't really matter what your major is? Can students major in the humanities and still succeed in the business world? I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Love the shows, both this one and Pivot. Thank you so much.

• 8:22Speaker 03

  Taylor from Virginia. Professor Taylor, English professor. Good for you. You're doing God's work. That sounds like such a nice way to live your life, to be an English professor at a liberal arts college in Virginia. I always thought I had this vision of how I'd retire and my vision of my retirement or retirement next phase when I get off this hamster wheel of just trying to make more and more money and be more and more relevant and being more and more impressive to people because I don't like me, so I need other people to like me. Not what you asked, but one of my retirement plans was I was gonna go teach at Darden. I've always been very taken with the University of Virginia. I think it's probably the second most beautiful campus in the world. I think Duke is right up there. Actually, also Pepperdine, believe it or not, is an incredibly beautiful campus. What do you know, overlooking the Pacific Ocean from the hills of Malibu.

• 9:06Speaker 03

  Anyway, I saw myself in Virginia and I'm glad you landed there. It's just incredible I can turn everything back to me, right? So in terms of the degree, I think that what you wanna do is you wanna be really good at something. And, you know, I've worked pretty closely with a lot of tech companies and I see them hire people from all of the disciplines. Now, having said that, if you're good at math, it's not a terrible idea to get a degree, an undergraduate certification in mathematics. If you enjoy programming, you know, a computer science degree or an engineering degree. Look, at the end of the day, if you have student loans and you're worried about paying off those student loans and you have an aptitude for those things, it's not a bad rap to have a degree in the STEM field.

• 9:50Speaker 03

  Having said that, I know that Google hires a lot of people out of the liberal arts. You teach English. I think, I think one of the most impressive skills that anyone can acquire as a young man or woman is the ability to write. I would put the number of people who are competent writers, it's somewhere between 1 and 3%. And one of the most brand enhancing things you can do is if you can write well, if you write a very tight, cogent, thoughtful, compelling memo that is grammatically flawless, it immediately says two things about your brand. One, it says you're well educated and two, it says you're smart. There's no way to fake written skills. I am shocked. I've worked with so many CEOs and a lot of times I ended up being their, kind of their

• 10:33Speaker 03

  scribe or their ghostwriter because so few people can write their way out of a paper bag. So if you're great at English and you love it, oh my gosh, by all means, become an outstanding writer and you're going to find a job, a good job, in a variety of different industries. Every company needs someone to communicate for them. But I would say the key is to try and get into a good school. It does matter. The certification is important. It's a brand that lives with you your entire life. And then be great at something, be great at something. I think you'd rather be great in philosophy than struggling through some STEM field because your dad said, "You can't get a job unless you have a STEM degree." These companies do hire people. What happens in interviews is everybody has, the company has their list.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  It's like having a list for a mate. And then they fall in love and they tear up their list. So if you come in as a history major and you're really smart and really compelling and can make, draw comparisons of World War II to certain business activity, people will find that compelling and want to hire you. So what's the key? Get to a great school and be great at something. Go really deep into something, whether that's computer science, or English, or philosophy. Thanks for the question and congratulations to you for building what seems like a very nice life for yourself. We have one quick break before our final question. Stay with us.

• 11:51Speaker 03

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• 12:54Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from Upwork. Trying to scale your business? At some point, you're probably going to hit a point where you need some help. Sometimes, the best way to break through that is bringing in the right talent at the right time. Upwork can help. Upwork is a one-stop platform where you can find, hire, and pay expert freelancers across more than 125 categories. Whether you need specialized skills for a single project or extra support to keep up with demand, it's easy to connect with experienced professionals, review their work, and find the right fit. You can move faster without taking on the commitment of full-time hires. And for businesses that need the very best talent, Upwork Business Plus provides access to the top 1% of freelancers on the platform. AI-powered matching connects you with qualified candidates in under six hours, cutting down the time spent searching.

• 13:37Scott Galloway?

  Upwork also takes care of contracts, payments, and other administrative tasks, so you can spend less time managing logistics and more time focused on what's next. Visit upwork.com/profg right now and post your job for free. That's upwork.com/profg to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's U.P.W.O.R.K. com/profg. Upwork.com/profg.

• 14:05Scott Galloway?

  Welcome back. Question number three.

• 14:08Speaker 05

  Hi, Scott. I'm looking for some career advice about pivoting into the world of tech as a second career later in life when one already has an established first career and whether or not that's even possible. For 20-plus years now, I have been a creator, executive producer, and showrunner of multi-platform entertainment content, creating original content for broadcast networks, cable networks, app-based streamers, and mobile-first platforms. I really love what I do. That said, for the past couple of years, I've been looking more and more at tech and wanting to get into tech. I'm really interested in the intersection between the creativity and the business and the ability to create products that people actually use that enhances their life. Anyway, you give great career advice.

• 14:52Speaker 05

  I wanted to know if it's even possible to make that shift if you're not right out of Stern and/or 23 and moving to Silicon Valley and super eager to start in any way you can as a coder. Thank you so much for your time.

• 15:05Speaker 03

  Corinne from Santa Monica. Thanks for the question and the kind words. By the way, I think we should all, we would all live in Santa Monica if we had that option. I went to Santa Monica a few weeks ago. I went back to my high school for my... For the last episode of the recently canceled CNN Plus show, No Mercy, No Malice, but I just remember thinking, Santa Monica is just such a nice place to live. Anyways, good for you. So approximately 90% of the people working in a tech company are not technologists, they're not engineers or programmers, they're finance people, or creatives, or designers, or people working as controllers, or business development, or in HR. So the transition here, it's not even a pivot, is absolutely possible. And here's the thing about aging. I remember

• 15:48Speaker 03

  talking to a friend who was applying to business school and he was 35. And he said, "I'm gonna be 37 when I get out of business school." And I said, "Boss, in two years, you're gonna be 37 anyways. Would you rather be 37 without an MBA or 37 with an MBA?" Because no matter how hard you try, you're gonna be 37, unless of course you get hit by a bus, but let's assume that's not gonna happen. So I would totally ignore the age thing. You absolutely, tech companies are hugely hungry for creative talent. Snap thinks of itself not as a technology company, but as a creative company. I would say the core competence of Airbnb isn't engineering, it's UI or UX UI, it's design and creating just such an intuitive interface that you

• 16:29Speaker 03

  just naturally wanna browse Airbnb or stay on the site. It has much greater usage time than any other hospitality site. Now, having said that, having said that, based on the fact that you are a little bit older, based on the fact that you've probably aggregated responsibilities, whether it's kids, or you're a little bit older and don't wanna live in a shitty apartment, you probably have a mortgage. What I would suggest is let the market decide. And that is start putting out some feelers, start going to the job sites, or looking at the listings for tech companies. We just talked about how Pinterest is launching 50 original programs. So find out who's in charge of that, and see if you can get an interview there. And it's never easy to get a job. It's like raising capital. People say, "Oh, it's an easy time

• 17:14Speaker 03

  to raise capital." I have never found it easy to raise capital. I just find that there's certain times when it's less hard. I always find it hard. Sometimes it's impossible. Sometimes it's just hard. As talented as you might be, maybe you have headhunters calling you, good for you, but I would assume That you're going to have to put out a lot of effort to find a new job. When I left Profit, when I sold my first brand strategy from Profit, I thought, oh, I'm just going to sit around and wait for the phone to ring off the hook. And I had a few opportunities to be CMOs of companies and on a regular basis I get offered positions, but for the most part, finding a job and raising capital is on you. You've got to be aggressive. You've got to get out there. You've got to make shit happen. But what I don't like is when people say, well, I'm going to quit my job and it'll force me to find a job in what I really want to do. No, it'll just force you not to have a job.

• 17:58Speaker 03

  So let the market decide here, Corinne. You're obviously very qualified. Put the age thing aside. Go get a job. That's the ultimate indicator whether you should do this or not is whether you get an offer. Anyways, thanks for the question, Corinne, and good luck. That's all for this episode. Again, if you'd like to submit a question, please submit a voice recording by visiting officehours.proffgmedia.com.

• 18:27Speaker 03

  Our producers are Caroline Chagrin and Drew Burrows. Claire Miller is our associate producer. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. Thank you for listening to the Prof G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you next week.

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