'Super weird' is the best way to describe this startup's pivot

This week on Equity, the podcast crew discusses several weird things and at least one cool thing. Kirsten Korosec, Devin Coldewey, and Rebecca Bellan first talked about the least weird thing of the week, how nice it is that Cohere co-founder Nick Frosst has a band that people really like. Then we get weird. First the good weird: a helmet that squeezes your head, but for a really good reason. It prevents hair loss from chemotherapy. Devin covered Luminate’s latest fundraise and news, and everyone was pleased that money was going to a startup that may really be helping people feel better about themselves during a difficult time. The company is hoping to improve at-home care as well. Next, Kirsten explained the weird phenomenon of Flink, the “quick commerce” startup that just recently was rumored to be on the block for about $106 million, instead raising $115 million. Quite a turnaround! But as the team discusses, it may be that investors see the possibility that the “tumultuous time” for this sector is ending and Flink may have a good grip on the German market. Still… Then the weirdness begins in earnest. Rebecca is at the “Principled Business Summit,” aimed at “reclaiming capitalism” from, apparently, itself. She is getting mixed messages from the crowd and the content, which seems to combine enthusiasm for doing the right thing with some fringe tendencies to do… other things. And weirdest of all, autonomous trucking startup TuSimple’s pivot to… AI-generated animation and video games. What?! Though there is some overlap between simulation and animation/gaming, it’s a wild and unexpected change for the company, and a lot of shareholders are not going for it. Apparently the new division is working on another adaptation of “The Three-Body Problem,” so that’s good… but what about the $450 million they were going to spend on trucks? That conflict is playing out before our eyes. Press play, and catch up! Equity is TechCrunch’s flagship podcast, produced by Theresa Loconsolo, and posts every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Overcast, Spotify and all the casts. You also can follow Equity on X and Threads, at @EquityPod. For the full episode transcript, for those who prefer reading over listening, check out our full archive of episodes over at Simplecast. Credits: Equity is produced by Theresa Loconsolo with editing by Kell. Bryce Durbin is our Illustrator. We'd also like to thank the audience development team and Henry Pickavet, who manages TechCrunch audio products. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Kirsten Korosec?

  Hello and welcome back to Equity, TechCrunch's flagship podcast about the business of startups. Today is Friday, September 20th. I'm Kirsten Korosec and joining me today is TechCrunch Senior Editor, Devin Coldewey. Devin, I thought about you this week because I see Amazon is pushing a return to office, which does affect you as a Seattleite. How are you feeling about this?

• 0:34Speaker 01

  Well, it's not great. I live like 100 feet away from the Amazon area of the city, South Lake Union, and it's already, the traffic there has been bad ever since it was converted from like a industrial wasteland to Amazon land. But after the pandemic, there was like this blessed period of freedom when you could just drive through there and then they had, you know, three days out of the week, return to office and now they're trying to do full. I mean, the traffic in Seattle is already, everybody says about every city, but like truly, especially in this particular area of Seattle, it's a nightmare every single day. And this is only going to make it worse and nobody at Amazon wants it except for Andy Jassy. I don't know why. And the office managers, I guess, so they can order more snacks and take home the extra. That's my guess.

• 1:19Kirsten Korosec?

  Those snacks, I mean, that is a reason to go into the office and to see people, you know, in real life.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, people. I've heard about this.

• 1:28Kirsten Korosec?

  All right. Well, you're the hermit, so I get it. Just a note, Rebecca Bellan will be joining us later in the show. We're going to be talking about Too Simple and this interesting pivot. Also, she's at this summit that we're going to dig into today and she'll go with her boots on the ground.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  It's a weird summit. It's a weird, it sounds weird.

• 1:47Kirsten Korosec?

  I'm intrigued. The rest of the show, we're going to talk about Luminate and Flink. So before we even get into deals of the week, did you read this really fun story about the Cohere co-founder, Nick, I think it's Nick Frost?

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And his band. Yeah, it's a, I think that's pretty cool.

• 2:04Kirsten Korosec?

  So the backdrop is he's got this like company valued at $5.5 billion, this AI startup. But he's got this band that, and it's not like, oh, I play at the local fair band. Like he's like playing a Lollapalooza and they have a following and it's this really fun feature. Of course, then I like proceeded to listen to all of his songs. Did you listen?

• 2:26Speaker 01

  I listened to a couple. It's like, it's not really my thing, but I'm like, okay, this is some well crafted like pop rock stuff.

• 2:32Kirsten Korosec?

  I'm always fascinated by founders who, first of all, it makes me feel like a little bit of an underachiever, quite frankly, because I'm like, oh, starts a successful company valued at, you know, many billions of dollars, but also is talented in this whole other area that just doesn't seem like there's an overlap, like being a musician or, you know, writes poetry or any of these other things that just really don't seem very tangential and also be successful in that. So I don't know. Did it make you feel a little bit like an underachiever, Daven?

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I'm, I have a superiority complex, so it's not a problem for me. But you know, I actually did meet him in Toronto at Collision. We talked about AI stuff. And in case you're wondering if he's like some AI true believer, big time, like AGI is gonna save the world. No, he's a very realistic, smart guy. And we had a good conversation about how AI is just AI. Like, everybody needs to chill.

• 3:25Kirsten Korosec?

  Well, I'm gonna say that maybe it's because of his multi-interests and music that helps keep him a little bit grounded. Also,

• 3:31Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 3:32Kirsten Korosec?

  One of the other deals I do actually want to talk about though, is the story that you wrote. It's really cool. It's this company called Luminate. And they've created this hair-saving chemo helmet. Please tell me about this.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  It sounds very sci-fi, but I covered them a couple of years ago and they just raised a new round. You know, sometimes you cover a company and you're like, well, maybe that's the last I ever hear of them because their proposal is a little too crazy. But they make a helmet that people who are in chemotherapy treatment, wear while they're actually having the treatment. And you know, the treatment is like toxic chemicals going through your, your, your system. And what happens is the reason you lose your hair, for some people lose their hair, is the, the toxins get into the cells that are your hair follicles and your hair falls out because it's poisoned. So what this helmet does is basically just, it sounds silly, but like, it basically just squeezes your head. It puts a little bit of pressure on your scalp so that the capillaries are closed.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  And that means the toxins don't get to your hair follicles. And it sounds simple, but like, it works. They just did their first clinical tests over in the UK, I think 75% of people retained a full head of hair. And they're getting ready to do US trials with a couple dozen people over here and try and get FDA approval. And it's, it's like, I mean, this is a life changing thing for a lot of people. You know, chemotherapy is hard enough and cancer treatment is hard enough without totally losing how you look and all this kind of stuff. So it's not just like, oh, you know, I really would prefer to have my hair. It's really a, an important aspect of people's identity. And this can help people get through cancer treatment happier and more whole.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  So I mean, I totally support it and they got a, I think it's a 10, 15 million dollars to continue developing this and commercialize it. And they're working on a couple of other things using the same principle, basically gloves and boots, because people get nerve damage. Neuropathy, I think in their extremities. And you can do the same thing. You just give it a little squeeze and it keeps the toxins from getting in there. I was like, isn't that basically what you could you just wear like a tight pair of gloves and like compression socks? And he was like, yeah, but those don't do it evenly and in like the exact right amount of pressure. So that's what we're working on.

• 5:44Kirsten Korosec?

  That's really interesting and you're right. They did raise like 15 million in a series A led by artist ventures. And to me, what really struck me about this was the seeming simplicity, which clearly it's not because it, as you mentioned, it has to be the right pressure. And just that right cocktail, if you will, of pressure.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:06Kirsten Korosec?

  But also I love these ideas where I'm like, why didn't anyone think of this before? And how long were they, do you have any idea or sense of how long they were working on this? And how they even came up with this idea or approach, I guess, in terms of using pressure as opposed to what I think a lot of people would go to, which is, oh, let's put like another external lotion or something like that, that like goes directly to the hair follicle. Instead, this whole idea around pressure is just really intriguing to me.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  It is, I think that they were, you know, there's been a lot of studies on this. Obviously, you want to study all the side effects of treatment like chemotherapy. And there's, it's different for everybody, but I think that the mechanism is well known. What was not known is whether you can block the capillaries and do this kind of pressure without damaging someone's head. I mean, you're putting on a giant mechanical helmet that's like, puts pressure on your head. To be honest, I would be, you know, unsure about taking that step myself. But they have shown that it is safe and that it is effective from now on. Like basically, that could be a standard of treatment. And that's what they're hoping for is that every place that does chemotherapy will say, hey, and your insurance will hopefully cover this helmet and you won't lose your hair. Or at least there's an 80% chance.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Like, I love that. And I know that there was a lot of work before this, but this is the operationalizing of the scientific work, which I love to cover that kind of thing.

• 7:31Kirsten Korosec?

  Yeah, because oftentimes when we, you're actually keen on this, you look at a lot of and have written a lot on like research, you know, early, early tech. And it's so cool to be in the business of writing about tech long enough where the research paper becomes like a startup idea that it could actually happen. So it's neat to see this sort of come to fruition. The big question for me actually is going to be whether insurance covers it. But I know there's like many, many steps before we get to that point. But I'll be definitely tracking this company and see how their FDA approvals go.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And even if in the insurance doesn't cover it, like, how much would you pay if you're doing, going to be in chemotherapy for the next year or whatever? Would you pay $500 to keep your hair? Would you pay $1,000? Would you pay $10,000? I mean, does, not everybody has that kind of money to begin with, but a lot of people are willing to, you know, before you get reimbursed, they're willing to pay for this kind of a life-changing or a life-preserving measure.

• 8:29Kirsten Korosec?

  Yeah, I mean, certainly I see the business there.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:32Kirsten Korosec?

  Speaking of seeing the business, and this one is an interesting one because I see the business, but I wonder how successful they're going to be where they're doing the business. And the company I'm talking about is Flink. They're a quick commerce startup. They raised $150 million at a valuation of nearly $1 billion. And quick commerce is very popular, but not easy and definitely not easy in certain parts of the world, specifically in Europe, where this company is focusing its attention. Where I see a lot of promise is in markets like India. So I don't know if you've looked at this at all, but to me, that was really striking

• 9:17Kirsten Korosec?

  and interesting that they were able to raise this much with a focus on this region.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  You know, I really couldn't say whether there is a market or not. I think it's pretty complicated. My intuition is that this market is kind of like the scooter market where you can't succeed as one of like 10 scooter companies in a city. But if you're the only scooter company in a city, you stand to make a lot of money. And if you can capture a market, then you can be profitable. But as long as you're competing and you have to price like you're competing and your prices are not reliable or sustainable, then you can't make a profit. So I think that you hope that you invest $150 million and then Flink becomes the go-to quick commerce solution for Berlin, Munich, going into other countries, whatever, big

• 10:08Speaker 01

  cities, and then it squeezes out the competition and then you make money. So like it's a kind of a anti-competitive play in a way, like you want to establish a kind of like micro monopoly.

• 10:19Kirsten Korosec?

  And to that point, they are narrowing their focus. So I guess their plan is to double down on business in Germany and the Netherlands in partnership with Just Eat Takeaway. And it seems to be that they're following that strategy. Let's just like completely blanket these areas, become the only choice, probably, and this is, you know, speculative, just to be clear, probably not be profitable in these areas until they hit that scale to become. That's a little bit of a risky business proposition, although we see it all the time. And to your point, we absolutely saw it in the electric shared scooter business, and it did not work out well for a lot of those companies.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I think about it like betting on horses. If you could make a bet at the last minute, you know, rather than at the beginning, you know, you've seen the horses race, a couple of them fell down, a couple have passed each other. And then now there's only like two or three horses out front. And you're like, all right, I'll go with that one, the brown one. It's a better chance than at the very beginning when there's 20 horses and you're like, oh, I don't know. I heard this one's pretty good. So now when there's already been a winnowing of the market, you know, the obvious underachievers have been eaten up. So now there's only a couple options. They're coming down to it. You got to make your bet. Maybe you're making it based on merit. Maybe you're making it based on your friend is the CEO. I'm not saying that that's the case, but I bet it's happened. And, you know, and but it's that's, this is maybe the

• 11:41Speaker 01

  time to make that bet rather than the tumultuous time of the instant delivery market. It's been tumultuous since Cosmo.com. If anybody, any other elder millennials remember that.

• 11:51Kirsten Korosec?

  It's the beginning. Yeah, I mean, that's what to me stuck out is like that quote that the tail end of a tumultuous time in the instant delivery market. Please let me know when that tumultuous time ends. I will note one other thing. They raised 115 million just a few months ago, like spring. It was rumored that they sell for 106 million to Gattier. So that's kind of an interesting change. I would love to have known what happened between April and now to completely flip it. Nope, we're not going to get acquired. Instead, we're going to raise even more money and then, you know, double down into these areas. So maybe that's the next story that we can push into and get the sort of behind the scenes story on that, how that went down.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  I hope so. Yeah, sometimes there is rhyme and reason to these about faces, but sometimes there isn't.

• 12:42Kirsten Korosec?

  That is very true. Well, that is the perfect ending to the first half of the show. After the break, we are going to have Rebecca Bellan come on. She's going to give us the boots on the ground take on this really interesting summit that she's at right now in New York City, and talk about a wild pivot of self-driving trucks company Too Simple.

• 13:07Kirsten Korosec?

  Alrighty, we're back and Rebecca Bellan has joined us. She's on a little bit of a field trip today. She's at this conference in New York called the Principled Business Summit. And the premise of this is reclaiming capitalism from cronyism and confusion. I, I'm a little confused. So Rebecca, what is going on at this conference?

• 13:30Rebecca Bellan?

  A lot is going on at this conference. I think that I was intrigued by it because there's some things that align with my values. I'm like, okay, I don't like cronyism too, right? And it seems like the mix of people that are here are kind of on both sides of the aisle. It's an interesting mix of people here. And from what I'm seeing, most of the people that I've spoken to and that I'm listening to are really about this like general mission of improving capitalism, right? Like we are in a capitalist world, whether you like that or hate it, like that's the, that's the economic system we're living in. So how can we make it better, right? And so one of the ways that a lot of the VCs here are talking about is impact investing, right? So picking technology that's going to do the most good for the most amount of people.

• 14:13Rebecca Bellan?

  And that can span across industries, right? There's a lot of life sciences startups. I mean, there's like a plant-based sushi thing that we got to taste, which was interesting. And there's, you know, people who focus on like sleep tech. And then, you know, obviously climate tech, green tech, and then it expands out from there. And, you know, it was surprising as well to have a, a talk that I was just watching. And they were talking about DEI and how, you know, there's a backlash against DEI at the moment. But really what DEI is about is just about finding great founders, no matter what their background is. And the applause in the room was like through the roof. So it was, yeah, I've, I've been surprised by what I've found is what I can say.

• 14:48Kirsten Korosec?

  Well, I know Devin has thoughts because really in his heart, he's an anarchist. So he doesn't even like fall in any category.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I defy any categorization. No, I mean, this kind of thing, I don't mind people talking about improving capitalism. Obviously, we live in a capitalist society and there's practical improvements, you know, reduce cronyism. Yeah, sure. But what I find is that it usually just means like, oh, wrong cronies. They're like, oh, we've been, we've been pursuing this incentive for 50 years. It's time to change that. And then you find out that it's just a different incentive with the same beneficiaries, usually the people who are already in power. It's, you have to see the cracks in the system as they happen when you have income equality. And you have to say like, what's failing systematically here? You can't just say capitalism and throw it away because that's, that's unrealistic.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  But you also have to say, well, maybe we should embrace capitalism, like peak capitalism less. And that doesn't seem to be the discussion that's happening at a place like this. They're not saying, oh, well, let's increase regulation on certain private markets. Let's socialize this or that.

• 15:54Kirsten Korosec?

  Right.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  There's a lot of interesting solutions to market based problems that are not, let the market handle it again, because that hasn't worked. And I don't think it's gonna work.

• 16:05Rebecca Bellan?

  I will say not everyone I spoke to is a free market capitalist, but some of the VCs I spoke to that I really enjoyed what they had to say with it, when they were just talking about like their new investment thesis, I'm using quotation marks because it's not really new. Really, they're saying we're going back to basics, old fashioned principles, right? Like looking at who we're gonna, who would acquire this company before we invest. Someone described it to me as like reverse VC, like really doing due diligence. One of the people on stage, she made fun of all the e-scooter craze. She was like, I was never going to invest in that. It's insane, the evaluations that these people got because it's like, nobody asked for e-scooters on the street, right? But what is the need that you're actually fulfilling? And go for that, like, how can we fund and back things that will actually change people's lives and, you know, make healthier humans?

• 16:49Rebecca Bellan?

  And I've had some great conversations. Let's just put it that way. Some very interesting conversations.

• 16:54Kirsten Korosec?

  That's always good. Before we move on, I am curious because there are a lot of. VCs there, it sounds like, and potentially startups. So is there a difference in their investment approach? That's what I'm really curious about. That would somehow eliminate this idea around cronyism. Is there a different funding thesis that gets us a different result?

• 17:19Rebecca Bellan?

  Well, yeah. One of the venture capitalists was talking about patient capital, telling founders to look for investors who are happy to be patient and go back to the, let you go back to the drawing board if you need more time, like focusing less on scale, scale, scale, and more on like, how are we getting this right? And how are we making sure that this has product market fit for as many people as possible? One of the people on stage said something about not investing for market share over profit. She doesn't invest in a company that's just trying to use that money to get market share. It's really just about like a sustainable growth model, which seems to be having a comeback in VC in general.

• 17:55Kirsten Korosec?

  Interesting. Well, speaking of, actually not speaking of sustainable growth models, this is a perfect pivot into the ultimate of pivots, which is another reason why we have you on here today. And that's to talk about Too Simple, a self-driving truck company, absolutely considered a darling at one point. And it's now not only shutting down operations in the US, that happened earlier this year, and sort of shifting its business over to China. It is changing to AI-generated animation and video gaming. Take us behind the scenes a little bit, Rebecca. They publicly disclosed this now, but really the story that you worked on was about a fight. And I believe shareholders involved.

• 18:39Rebecca Bellan?

  Yeah, so some shareholders had reached out to me actually before Too Simple announced its new business segment that has been quote unanimously approved by the board. And they had reached out a week or so before that happened and said that, hey, this has been something that we've been pulling together. They shared a letter with me that they had shared with the board. And the letter was saying, we're not really sure what's going on at Too Simple. You delisted from the stock market earlier this year. You have a ton of money and assets just kind of sitting there. And it looks like the company is trying to move those assets to China to fund a new business. Now, Too Simple's not been secretive about that. They've said, we need this money to fund our autonomous vehicle business in China. But I think a rain, what has happened is, is a range of issues, including like multiple lawsuits,

• 19:24Rebecca Bellan?

  temporary restraining orders from courts and a national security agreement with the US has made it, I think, probably difficult for them to pursue autonomous vehicles in China. And so they started pursuing another avenue, AI gaming and animation. Now, the problem that shareholders have is that they were not told about this, which, you know, two simple positives, we don't need to tell you everything we're doing if we're just, you know, trying something out. And not only that, but they accused the founder, Mo Chen, or co-founder, I should say, of self-dealing because Mo Chen's really into AI animation and gaming. He has several companies and a lot of the companies that are under his name or connected to him are also connected to his other companies like Too Simple and like Hydran, which is

• 20:09Rebecca Bellan?

  an autonomous ready hydrogen trucking company that he started around the same time that Too Simple went public. So there's like a lot of kind of incest between his companies. And yeah, it's been a little messy.

• 20:20Kirsten Korosec?

  Yeah. So Devin, I have to ask you, you're like our AI guy, right?

• 20:26Speaker 01

  That's what they tell me.

• 20:27Kirsten Korosec?

  Is there any overlap, as far as you know, between the machine learning that is used to develop the self-driving software of a robotaxi or self-driving truck and say, AI-generated animation, like any overlap?

• 20:45Speaker 01

  There can be. I mean, I, I think this, this pivot is absolutely bonkers, but it's not that there's zero overlap. Like, one of the huge parts of creating autonomous vehicles is simulations and making realistic 3D environments for agents, which are the drivers in this case, but could be pedestrians, dogs, trees, whatever, to interact with realistically. And you have to do physics simulation, you have to do light, right? Because if your environment isn't realistic, then the cars won't understand how to, you know, what something looks like in real life. There's actually a fair amount of overlap in that sort of department. I would say though, that AI anime-

• 21:29Speaker 01

  As what I've, you know, the people that I've talked to in the VFX and animation world, like I was just at Siggraph in Denver, I think they would laugh at this because the animation world is getting so sophisticated and the AI stuff is in generating animations from prompts and producing physically realistic stuff. There's a lot of core competencies that are not in the simulator and car side. There is some overlaps for sure. And I think that them switching to this, it's better than if you just started cold because they have some expertise in various ways, but it's definitely still super weird. And I would not like it's

• 22:08Kirsten Korosec?

  Super weird is definitely one. And like, here's the thing, like, there are simulator companies out there already, and this has been a part of a self-driving world for a while. And I would assume, maybe incorrectly, that Too Simple had a robust simulation team already. And maybe, maybe that's the part that they're preserving. It just seems like that's not even what they're even pursuing. It's more video gaming and applying some of that skill set to that.

• 22:38Rebecca Bellan?

  Yeah, I would say that one of the issues with even using kind of the tech that they had developed in the US is that because of their national security agreement, there's kind of like a silo on the data and technology that they're allowed to transfer to China. So it's like, what base of data and tech are you even using to do this? It seems like maybe starting from scratch, but kind of using the funds from the old business. And I should also add that Too Simple says that they are not giving up on autonomous driving. This is like a near-term profitability segment, and they are happy to license their tech and work with partners to fund the development of autonomous driving technology in China. So that's what they say. And I just thought I should say that, too.

• 23:20Kirsten Korosec?

  You know what that sounds like, though? Reading between the lines?

• 23:24Rebecca Bellan?

  Yeah.

• 23:24Kirsten Korosec?

  It sounds desperate.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, we're losing so much money. We have to really quickly make a ton of money in this other super easy thing, which is AI animation, which nobody has made money on at all, let alone hundreds of millions of dollars. Yeah, it does sound a little desperate, very desperate, actually.

• 23:41Kirsten Korosec?

  Right. And reflective, actually, of how hard it is in the AV space. I mean, it has been very much like a Hype cycle type of industry. A few years ago, we were seeing companies, anything with autonomous vehicle in their pitch deck or whatever, getting millions of dollars or being acquired for tens of or hundreds of millions of dollars. And there's been a ton of consolidation. There's really very few left standing. I mean, even just earlier this week, Motional, which is this Hyundai backed company, their CEO and president stepped down, which doesn't seem like a big deal, except for the fact that this this guy was really actually the an early pioneer of the industry

• 24:26Kirsten Korosec?

  and really was a co-founder of what emotional is today. It just shows that it's like, it's pretty hard out there. So it doesn't surprise me that there is a pivot. What surprises me is their choice of pivot.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:40Rebecca Bellan?

  Yeah. Well, they claim it's a $600 billion industry and it's just ripe for the picking. And they've got some decent partnerships already. They so they're doing like a three body problem, which Netflix just did a series on, I saw.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  What is $600 billion? Are they just talking about the entire film and TV industry? I love those total addressable markets where they're like, oh.

• 24:58Rebecca Bellan?

  I know. They're just they're just throwing it out there.

• 25:00Kirsten Korosec?

  Oh, I know. Tams are Tams make me laugh every single time.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Every single time.

• 25:05Kirsten Korosec?

  Well, best of luck. Thank you for coming on and telling us all about this. So I could have a little good chuckle. We'll see. Maybe we'll be proven wrong.

• 25:14Rebecca Bellan?

  Hmm. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go back out to the lion's den and keep interviewing people about why they're here and what they believe in.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Good idea.

• 25:22Rebecca Bellan?

  Yeah.

• 25:22Kirsten Korosec?

  Well, thanks again for joining us and we'll see you next time.

• 25:26Rebecca Bellan?

  See ya.

• 25:29Speaker 03

  Equity is produced by Teresa Loquenzolo with editing by Kell. Bryce Durbin is our illustrator, and we'd like to give a big thanks to our audience development team and Henry Pickavet, who manages TechCrunch Audio Products. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk to you next time.