Why Are Root Beer Floats Special? Because Science!

Should you rinse ice before you pour a carbonated drink over it? What’s the best way to store fresh bread? And is there a reason to drink room temp water between bites of ice cream?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  As someone who has been lucky enough to go to Napa Valley, I can tell you it's everything people say it is. Beautiful scenery, quaint, beautiful towns, and phenomenal food and drink everywhere you go. I don't even know that much about wine, but I know that every glass of wine I had in Napa Valley was excellent. I mean, there's no bad glass of wine and no bad meal. Choose between hundreds of wineries, tasting rooms, and chef-led restaurants from a low-key lunch on a vineyard terrace to a full tasting menu paired by the winemaker. Plan your trip at visitnapavalley.com. Start the day strong with Quaker Protein Products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker Protein Products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals.

• 0:43Dan Pashman?

  Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love like maple and brown sugar and blueberries and cream. Quaker Protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker. Available at a store near you.

• 1:08Dan Pashman?

  Swate to why bother with the air fryer if you're just using it on regular oven mode? Is it just smaller and heats faster?

• 1:13Speaker 01

  Okay, I need you to get an air fryer, Dan. It is so good and so useful.

• 1:19Dan Pashman?

  Do you not have one?

• 1:20Speaker 01

  It's a small oven. It doesn't need, take so much time to heat. It's a much more efficient space.

• 1:25Dan Pashman?

  But I have a toaster oven. I don't like kitchen appliance. I just finally broke down and bought a food processor.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  New York City living, one can safely guess that you don't have endless...

• 1:35Dan Pashman?

  I live in the suburbs. I have a whole house now.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Oh, are you serious? Oh, you should get an air fryer.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  For the level of food nerd you are, you need to get an air fryer, Dan.

• 1:50Dan Pashman?

  This is the Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food, learn more about people, and Happy New Year! I hope you had a relaxing and delicious holiday season with family and/or friends. And I got some good news to help you start the new year on the right foot. Listen up, we have two live Sporkful tapings coming up. March 19th in Brooklyn with Kenji Lopez Alt and May 1st in Boston, guest TBD. Links for tickets are at sporkful.com/events. Can't wait to see you. All right, let's jump into it. This week, we are opening the phone lines, but not just for any old kind of issues. We are taking your food science questions and arguments.

• 2:32Dan Pashman?

  So put on your nerd glasses and fire up those Bunsen burners. This is gonna be fun. All that said, look, science is not my strong suit. I know a bit, but not enough. I need some help. First up, you've heard her here on this forklift before, talking about phase change in Kachue Pepe. She's an industrial engineer, a columnist for the Hindustan Times, a contributor to Serious Eats and the woman behind the Substack and Instagram feed, Upgrade My Food. Joining us from Austin, Texas, it's Swayta Sivakumar. Hello, Swayta.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Hi, Dan. How are you doing?

• 3:02Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 3:04Dan Pashman?

  And joining me right here in the studio in midtown Manhattan, you know him as the editorial director of Serious Eats, where he's worked for more than a decade. He's also worked in professional kitchens at some of New York's top restaurants, starting at Chantelrelle when he was just 13. Is that right, Daniel? Yeah. You must be almost 16 now. 15 and a half. Let's not... I'm getting there. He's also publicly called himself a human garbage can, which I think is a feeling we can all relate to. It's accurate. Daniel Gritzer, how are you? I'm doing great. Thank you for having me. It's great to have you both. Swayta, you recently wrote an article for Serious Eats detailing several experiments you ran to try to find the best way to get seasoning to stick to homemade popcorn. First of all, I don't know that I've ever heard of a better example of service journalism.

• 3:48Dan Pashman?

  This is the research that our world needs. I feel like it's become very common, a lot of people coming up with all kinds of spice combos for popcorn, and you try them out, and you finish the popcorn, and what's in the bottom of the bowl? 80% of the seasoning, right?

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:03Dan Pashman?

  So, Swayta, what did you find in your research?

• 4:04Speaker 01

  When I started making the popcorn at home, I realized that there was a lot of salt stuck at the bottom of the pan that I was making it in, and also the lid. So the salt was splattering everywhere. And none, none of it was sticking to the popcorn itself. Now, you could argue that you could add the salt back in after the popcorn has popped. But remember, the popcorn's surface is so smooth, it slides right off. So it's really hard to get the salt to spread evenly throughout the popcorn. So I started testing different ways of spritzing seasonings. And if it's anything water-based, that's a definite no-no.

• 4:38Dan Pashman?

  So wait, just to understand one thing, Sweta, you're making popcorn in a pot on the stove, right? Sort of like the old-fashioned way, not with a popcorn maker?

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:45Dan Pashman?

  And are you, is there oil to believe in the pan?

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Yes, there's a little bit of oil. Now, Daniel recommended that I add a lot of oil and try that. I did that as well, and it changes the crispiness of the popcorn. The popcorn becomes a great texture when you add extra oil, but that does not change the amount of seasoning that gets stuck to the popcorn.

• 5:03Dan Pashman?

  So thanks for nothing, Daniel.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I tried.

• 5:07Dan Pashman?

  And in case it wasn't clear, you two both work at Sirius Eats, so this is why you guys are often collaborating. Okay, so you did all this research, you did all these experiments. After all your hard work, Sweta, what did you determine is the best way to get seasoning to stick to homemade popcorn?

• 5:21Speaker 01

  So I would hate to make you go out and buy an ingredient, but popcorn salt is such a game changer. I have bought it and I absolutely love it because it is in micron size. It is like one-tenth the size of a regular salt. And that makes it so much easier to get it to stick to individual popcorn pieces. So even Samin Nostr does that where she puts the popcorn into a box and she grinds up the salt with some spices, puts the whole thing inside a box, shakes it up or a bag, and then it gets coated so much more better than just kind of like taking an open bag and sprinkling it on top and throwing a hail mary pass, hoping it sticks to some of those kernels.

• 6:00Dan Pashman?

  Right, okay. So for popcorn enthusiasts out there, get yourself some popcorn salt. Daniel, let's see if you can keep up with that.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  No, I can't, I can't.

• 6:07Dan Pashman?

  What have you, what's something you've been working on lately?

• 6:09Speaker 02

  All right, I just wrapped up testing on something that I've been curious about for a long time. I thought I knew the answer. My testing showed I didn't fully, I wasn't fully right in my predictions. So you know when you'll see a recipe for, like a bread recipe, and they say, oh, well, you know, you have to add this much water, and then add more water, a tablespoon at a time, until you get to whatever the cue is, you know?

• 6:32Dan Pashman?

  Right, like until you press it and it bounces back or whatever it might be.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, like sticky but not wet, or you know, whatever the, whatever the language is. And the folk wisdom here that I've always heard is... This is largely because you have to adjust to the ambient humidity. You know, it's a, it's a very humid day. You're gonna need less water because there's all this water in the air that the dough and I think in particular, the flour, it's the primary ingredient.

• 6:58Dan Pashman?

  Versus the other side of the coin, if it's like the dead of winter and the northern part of the country, the air could be so dry.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  You gotta put more water.

• 7:04Dan Pashman?

  Okay, so yeah, I've heard that too.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  So I was convinced that this was just like utter BS. I was sort of going into this with the assumption that I was gonna do some tests and I was gonna find that ambient humidity is, is just a total non-issue. And I was, I've been waiting for the real cold weather to hit because I needed, I needed the air to be dry enough in much of my apartment that I could set up a bowl of flour there and then have another room where I got a humidifier going.

• 7:33Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, I was, did you have, what's the device that measures humidity? Is it a barometer?

• 7:37Speaker 02

  A hygrometer.

• 7:38Dan Pashman?

  Hygrometer, okay, so.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Indeed, I did.

• 7:41Dan Pashman?

  I don't think we need to hear the rest. I think you've proven that you're a nerd, but let's hear the end anyway, Dan.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  Ambient humidity can affect how much water the flour is holding. It's measurable. It's pretty minor. I think for most people, I would say it's one of the least important factors in why your dough is not right. If you have a scale and you know what, you know, if you have a properly developed recipe and you know what your target hydration is, you measure it properly, the ambient humidity is gonna really become a, almost a non-issue, but I can't say it's a non-issue. And if you are a really experienced baker and you're dialed in, you may notice the differences based on ambient humidity. So it's not totally a imagined thing.

• 8:19Dan Pashman?

  So not total BS, but also not as big of a deal as a lot of people say.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 8:23Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  You got it.

• 8:23Dan Pashman?

  All right, well, you have both proven yourselves, at least to me.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  Was that too much?

• 8:27Dan Pashman?

  I'm sure.

• 8:30Dan Pashman?

  All right, you two ready to take some listener questions about various food science issues, disagreements and all that good stuff?

• 8:36Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  And let's do it.

• 8:40Dan Pashman?

  All right. First up, we have some questions about sweet treats. Here we go.

• 8:44Speaker 03

  Hi, Sporkful team. This is Kat. I'm calling from Oak Park, Illinois. And my food hot take is that ice cream is best enjoyed with a glass of room temperature water on the side. The reason being is that when I eat ice cream, my taste buds freeze up and then I actually can't taste any of the flavor notes. I just feel the sensation of eating something cold and sweet. And so in order to optimize my ice cream eating experience, I defrost my taste buds with a glass of room temperature water in between bites so that my taste buds will unfreeze and I can taste actual flavors. People think I'm a little bit goofy here, but I truly believe my way is the way to enjoy ice cream to the max. And I believe ice cream science will back me up. Thanks a lot. Bye bye.

• 9:29Dan Pashman?

  All right, this is very interesting. Sweetie, I want to start with you because last time you were on, we talked about your two ingredient mango ice cream, which by the way, I went home and made and it was phenomenal. And then my wife was away for work and when she came home, she was so impressed that the kids and I had made ice cream. So what are your thoughts on this idea, just as a general philosophy, that when ice cream is very cold, that it might reduce your taste sensation?

• 9:52Speaker 01

  I absolutely love this idea because I'm the kind of person, you give me a bowl of food and I take it my diligent duty to finish it before like a timer runs off or something. I like to warm up my ice cream in the microwave for a few seconds.

• 10:06Dan Pashman?

  I do the same thing. Yes.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  Hold up, explain that a little.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  I'm not one of those people who can sit and wait and wait for the ice cream to melt.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  Just to make it scoopable, you mean?

• 10:15Dan Pashman?

  If it's softer, it's more flavorful and it's not so ice cold. And it's just, I think texture wise, ice cream is more pleasurable to eat when it's a little bit melty.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  I feel like you gotta just take it to its logical conclusion and drink custard.

• 10:27Dan Pashman?

  I mean, I actually have an idea that you would completely melt ice cream and then pour it on top of a scoop of hard ice cream as a sauce.

• 10:33Speaker 02

  That's a great idea.

• 10:34Dan Pashman?

  Thank you.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  You know, like, you know how when you put hot fudge on the ice cream, the layer that's right under the hot fudge is the best layer?

• 10:43Dan Pashman?

  Yes.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  It's got that semi-melted consistency. So I think if you can wait for that consistency, like a person like me, this glass of water idea is absolutely wonderful. I am all for it.

• 10:58Dan Pashman?

  The glass of water helps you with your tongue, but it doesn't help with getting the ice cream meltier. That's what the microwave is for, or time, if you're like. You know, very patient, which is not me and Suetta.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  I'm gonna try it, but I love the idea.

• 11:09Dan Pashman?

  Daniel, quick thoughts on this?

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a really interesting idea because of the method that this caller is using to try to warm the ice cream up. Instead of warming the ice cream, she's warming her mouth in between bites. The warmer things are, the more volatile they are, the more the molecules are moving.

• 11:25Dan Pashman?

  Volatile in this case is a good thing. It means that the flavors and the aromas are kind of moving around more and so they're going up your nose.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, the warmer it is, they're going up your nose and they're probably interacting more rapidly with your taste buds on your tongue, which would be just perceiving sweetness.

• 11:40Dan Pashman?

  Right. I'm 100% on board with this idea. All right. Well, thank you, Kat, for that suggestion that we all clearly love. Let's move on to the next one.

• 11:47Speaker 04

  Hi, sportful team. This is Morgan from Detroit. So last night I was enjoying a childhood favorite dessert of a root beer float. And I noticed a couple texture peculiarities that I have questions about. So for one, I love the texture of the foam that appears when you make a soda float. It's more airy and persistent than normal soda foam. So like, you know, normally when you pour soda, the foam disappears as the drink settles. But with root beer floats, the foam stays around for a while. Why? What causes the texture difference and the persistence of this foam? Secondly, adding soda seems to change the texture of the ice cream.

• 12:27Speaker 04

  I noticed like kind of icier patches of ice cream as I'm eating it if it's mixed with soda. I'm wondering also why this happened, why it seems to crystallize more. Thank you so much.

• 12:39Dan Pashman?

  So a lot to unpack here, Daniel. Let's start with the idea that the foam is different in root beer float versus other flavors like Coke or Sprite.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Okay. So there are a lot of variables here. I think there's brand variation. There's how is those soda dispensed?

• 12:55Dan Pashman?

  Some brands are, just have more carbonation than others.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. Is it coming out of a fountain? Is it? There's a lot going on there, but I think, Morgan. Has stumbled on something that is real, which is that a lot of root beers do have extra ingredients that not all sodas have. I think cream soda also has it. These are additives that increase bubble formation for a foamier head. There's an ingredient, it's an extract from the soap bark tree.

• 13:22Dan Pashman?

  I did once interview like a soda expert and I asked him like, what even is root beer? How do you define it? And he said traditionally it's soda made with roots, barks and herbs. Because of these different additives, it's possible that

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Root beer holds a bubble.

• 13:34Dan Pashman?

  Would be fizzier, but in general, it's true with soda floats that whatever the soda is, you get this like extra foam that's super light. What's happening there?

• 13:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there you're just, you're amplifying this effect because ice cream is largely cream. And if you think what is, well, what is cream capable of? Whipping. It's capable of holding a more stable bubble. There's something inherent to cream. It has proteins, it has fats. It takes a lot of energy for a bubble to hold. And so I think the addition of those proteins and those fats from the cream are amplifying the, the capacity for the liquid to foam and hold a stable foam for longer. And then root beer even more so because of these additives.

• 14:16Dan Pashman?

  Right. So Swayta, I'm going to stick with you for the topic of ice cream here. So the ice cream also, as Morgan notes, changes, it kind of crystallizes a bit inside the soda. What's happening there?

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Ice cream is a colloidal of three phases. It has the solid from the ice crystals. It has the liquid from the sugar solution and it has the bubbles that are trapped in. So when the soda hits, it's going to go in between them and kind of like the phase change of the ice crystals to back to liquid. And because it's still in the 30 degree Fahrenheit zone, it's going to try and combine itself back. And that's why I think it's kind of doing these quick reactions right inside as you pour the, pour it inside the glass.

• 14:53Dan Pashman?

  It melts a tiny bit and then refreezes like almost like within a few seconds.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  That was my best guess.

• 14:58Dan Pashman?

  Okay. Final question on this topic. What is the best way to consume a soda float? Straw, spoon or both?

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Straw for me.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  I think I'm a spoon person.

• 15:07Dan Pashman?

  Swayta, don't you, if you do straw, don't you run into the issue that you finish the soda and then you still have half a scoop of ice cream in the bottom?

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, then you add, just add more soda.

• 15:18Dan Pashman?

  To me, I think 100% you need a spoon because you want to manage those ratios and you want ice cream and soda in every bite.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Don't yep, I am.

• 15:25Dan Pashman?

  Look, you do it however you want, Swayto. I'm just, I would encourage you to try it with a spoon, though.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Do it however you want, it's just, you're wrong.

• 15:36Dan Pashman?

  All right, one more voice memo for this segment.

• 15:39Speaker 05

  Hi, sportful, I'm Thomas.

• 15:41Speaker 06

  I'm Pat.

• 15:42Speaker 05

  And we're calling you from Brooklyn, New York. We're calling about a habit my dad's had for quite some time with his soda.

• 15:49Speaker 06

  Probably for about 40 years. Before I pour soda, if I take the ice right out of the freezer and I pour my soda directly on ice, all the carbonation goes away. So I discovered, I put my ice in a glass, I go to the sink, I rinse it off with cold water, then I pour the soda, and my carbonation doesn't go away.

• 16:11Speaker 05

  So what do you guys think? Any validity to this? Have we discovered the latest and greatest upgrade to your soda routine? Thanks so much.

• 16:19Dan Pashman?

  First off, can I just say that I hope that you and all our listeners appreciate that we started with a call about ice cream, then went to a call about the combination of ice cream and soda, and now we've transitioned to a call about soda? I mean, the transitions here are seamless.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  The theme is consistent, and the hidden theme here is bubbles.

• 16:38Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 16:38Speaker 02

  We're back on bubbles.

• 16:39Dan Pashman?

  So, Daniel, there's actually a recipe on Serious Eats for nimbu soda, Indian-style lime soda, that talks about this exact thing, this idea of rinsing your ice. So what gives?

• 16:47Speaker 02

  So that, yeah, that recipe is by Show Spath, the former editor at Serious Eats, who grew up, at least partially, in New Delhi. And indeed, rinsing the ice with water is a critical step in that recipe to maintain carbonation. This is very real.

• 17:00Dan Pashman?

  So why? Why does rinsing ice maintain carbonation?

• 17:03Speaker 02

  Nucleation sites.

• 17:05Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Words of the day.

• 17:07Dan Pashman?

  What's nucleation? Why is it doing something here?

• 17:09Speaker 02

  It takes a lot of energy for a bubble to form, especially when they're so small, because it has to do with the ratio of the surface area of the bubble to its volume.

• 17:18Dan Pashman?

  Because a bubble is under pressure from the water, whatever liquid is around it. And so the bubble has to be strong enough to not burst under that pressure.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  That barrier of bubble formation is so high that it can happen all by itself in a nucleation site-free environment, but it is extremely...

• 17:36Speaker 02

  Difficult to make it happen. So what is a nucleation site? It's sort of these, if you could look under microscope at the surface of your vessel or this grains of salt or anything like that, pieces of dust. These are irregularities.

• 17:50Dan Pashman?

  Anything that makes the surface of the glass rough. I'm gonna go ahead and extrapolate that also like ice when it comes out of the freezer sort of has a rough surface. So the more rough surfaces that the soda is touching against.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  The more nucleation.

• 18:01Dan Pashman?

  The more nucleation and the more bubbles you have forming faster, the more the carbonation is escaping.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Is rushing out of the.

• 18:07Dan Pashman?

  Got it.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  Exactly. Think of those champagne flutes where they will deliberately make one nice big nucleation site. It's manufactured on purpose this way and you get that one dominant stream of bubbles coming up.

• 18:18Dan Pashman?

  Oh, so they put like a little divot in the bottom.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, they put more imperfect surface feature in the glass.

• 18:24Dan Pashman?

  So then am I understanding correctly that rinsing your ice makes the ice smoother?

• 18:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 18:27Dan Pashman?

  Which reduces the number of nucleation sites in the glass and therefore reduces the speed at which bubbles form and that way you don't have your thing fizzing and losing all your carbonation right away.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  You got it.

• 18:37Dan Pashman?

  Sueti, have you ever had nimbu soda?

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  In your experience, is the ice rinsing a really common practice for these sodas in India?

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've seen them do that. The street vendors do it.

• 18:47Dan Pashman?

  Really? So this is widely known?

• 18:50Speaker 02

  Widely known, yep.

• 18:51Dan Pashman?

  All right, well, I'm glad now we know.

• 18:56Dan Pashman?

  All right, we're gonna take a short break, you two, but we have Grace in Minneapolis standing by on hold. When we come back, she's gonna join us live to ask for help in a longstanding argument with her husband about the best way to store fresh bread. Then later, is there ever a reason not to use the convection setting on your oven? We'll discuss. Daniel and Sueti, will you stick around? Sure will.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:17Dan Pashman?

  All right, we'll be right back.

• 19:23Speaker 07

  Ooh, advertisements, yummy.

• 19:27Dan Pashman?

  When you're cooking, ingredients matter, right? You use higher quality ingredients, you usually get better results. And if you're listening to this show, you're probably the kind of person who puts some thought and effort into your ingredients. But ingredients don't just matter with food, they also matter with laundry detergent. Of course, the cleaning job needs to get done, the odors and stains have to be tackled, and I wanna feel good about the detergent. And the ingredients in it. Because remember, whatever's in your laundry detergent is essentially in your clothes. And then you're putting those clothes on, you want good stuff in there. And All Free Clear uses only essential ingredients. It's 100% free from dyes, perfumes, parabens, and irritating residues. Check out the label and see for yourself, it lists all the ingredients and what they do. We've been using it in my house, we're very happy with it. And let me tell you, family of four, two teenagers, we do a lot of laundry.

• 20:12Dan Pashman?

  So we have put All Free Clear to the test. It's a powerful clean that you can feel good about. All Free Clear is the number one detergent brand recommended by dermatologists for sensitive skin. When it comes to laundry detergent, the choice is clear. All Free Clear. Pick up a bottle for your next laundry day.

• 20:29Dan Pashman?

  Start the day strong with Quaker Protein Products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker Protein Products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals. Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love like maple and brown sugar and blueberries and cream. Quaker Protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker, available at a store near you. Last year, right around this time, I got a new jacket from Quince, a lightweight fall jacket. And it has turned into my favorite jacket. And this is why you need a lightweight jacket and probably a new one because it's time to freshen up your look. You need a lightweight jacket from Quince because the beauty of a lightweight jacket is you can wear in the early fall.

• 21:11Dan Pashman?

  You can wear it in the early spring, but also it goes over a sweater, over a sweatshirt. And then suddenly your lightweight jacket is a great accessory for pretty much the whole winter. Bottom line, when the temperatures start to drop, Quince makes it easy to build on those everyday staples with versatile layers designed to keep you warm and comfortable all season long. They make elevated everyday essentials using premium materials and designs that are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again. So find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was this pork full. It's the best way to support the show.

• 21:57Speaker 08

  We know life is busy. That's why saving money should be effortless. With Atlantic Union Bank's Roundup Savings, every time you use your debit card, your purchase rounds up to the nearest dollar and automatically goes into savings. So whether you're grabbing coffee, filling the tank, or picking up groceries, you're saving without even thinking about it. It's just one of the ways Atlantic Union Bank makes managing your money easy. Learn more at atlanticunionbank.com or stop by a branch today. Atlantic Union Bank, any way you bank.

• 22:30Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman. You know, often we get emails from you, our lovely listeners, saying, "Hey, whatever happened to that episode from years ago? I really loved that one. I want to hear it again." Or, "I want my friends to hear it, and they're newer to the show." We have a service for you. It's called our Friday Reheats. Every Friday, we pull an episode out of the deep freezer and reheat it for you. Last week, we reheated a parody. This is one of my all-time favorite episodes. It's a parody of Serial, the true crime investigative podcast. We look into the true story of a woman whose lunch kept getting stolen from the office fridge. It's hilarious and riveting. You gotta check it out. We also recently reheated my interview with the legendary singer Patti LaBelle, who says she's an even better cook than she is a singer.

• 23:13Dan Pashman?

  Hard to believe, but listen to the episode to hear more about that. We even have calls episodes from way back when, including someone asking about what cheese you'd pick if only one cheese could remain on Earth. Check out all of our Friday Reheats wherever you found this episode. As we turn back to more of your calls, one quick note. We are already looking for callers for our next one of these episodes. It can be food science, but it doesn't have to be. If you have any kind of food feud with a friend or loved one, I want to hear from you. Drop me a line at [email protected]. All right, I'm joined once again now by Daniel Gritzer from Serious Eats. Hi, Daniel. Hello, hello. And Swayta Sivakumar, also of Serious Eats and the Hindustan Times. Hello, Swayta.

• 23:51Speaker 09

  Hi there.

• 23:52Dan Pashman?

  Time now to turn to a live caller joining us on the show. Hi, who's this?

• 23:56Speaker 09

  Hi, my name is Grace from Minneapolis.

• 23:59Dan Pashman?

  Hey, Grace. Say hi to my friends Daniel and Swayta.

• 24:01Speaker 09

  Daniel, Swayta, hello.

• 24:03Dan Pashman?

  What's the issue, Grace? How can we help you?

• 24:05Speaker 09

  Sure. So my husband and I have a longstanding argument about bread.

• 24:11Speaker 09

  And how we can best preserve bread in our house. Uh, once every three to six months or so, my husband, who has really great taste in food, will go on a Jag and he will visit one of our local artisan bakeries. And he ends up buying maybe three or four big loaves of bread. Now, we have a small family. It's myself, my husband and my 12 year old son. And he'll bring these breads home and they'll put it, be put on the counter. And I am so delighted, but at the same time, I'm facing this decision. How do I best preserve these breads for longer term use throughout the week? My idea is let's put the loaves in the freezer that we want to save for later.

• 24:56Speaker 09

  Um, maybe three or four days from now, and then cut into those loaves that we want to eat immediately. He is very adamantly opposed to putting bread in the freezer. He says that he can tell when bread is frozen and then re thaw or thawed that he claims it maybe dries out. I don't notice a difference on that. So my conundrum and our argument is, does bread really dry out in the freezer more quickly than it does on the countertop or vice versa? How do we eat fresh bread or preserve it for longer?

• 25:31Dan Pashman?

  Uh, this is a great question. Wait, can I ask one quick sort of like logistical question here, Grace? Why is he only going to the bake, like is the bakery like four hours away? Why is he only going like once every three to six months? Why doesn't he just go once a week and get one loaf?

• 25:44Speaker 09

  You know, probably our busy schedules.

• 25:46Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 25:46Speaker 09

  Let's just say this, even if he were to go once a week, he'd still get three or four loaves. Sounds like my husband.

• 25:55Dan Pashman?

  All right. So, um, Sweta, let me start with you. What, when you put fresh bread in the freezer, what happens to it?

• 26:02Speaker 01

  So when you put something in the freezer, especially starches, whether it's cooked rice or bread, the water content inside the bread will phase transition. It will become just frozen. And so when you take it back and thaw it, it's going to go back into water form. If you let it sit in the fridge instead, what happens is starch, as the temperature drops, it undergoes a process called retrogradation. The starch molecules start aligning, especially the amylose, aligning themselves with each other, kicking the water out. So the drying out actually happens more so in the refrigerator. And in the freezer, it's like a snapshot in time. The water molecules just freeze and becomes ice.

• 26:40Speaker 02

  I'm curious, Grace, I don't want to doubt your husband's discerning palate.

• 26:46Dan Pashman?

  But.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  Maybe he really can tell. I mean, and surely freshly baked, high-quality bread is going to be at its peak.

• 26:56Dan Pashman?

  When it's fresh.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  When it's fresh. The freezer's not better than that. But what do you end up doing? Do you put it in the freezer? Who wins this argument?

• 27:05Speaker 09

  If I choose to follow what he wishes for the bread, I will leave it on the counter in the plastic bag that it was wrapped in from the bakery. Sometimes I can get away with sneaking a loaf into the freezer and then pulling it out before he notices that it's thawed. And then he won't say anything when he eats it.

• 27:25Dan Pashman?

  Oh, that's, that's pretty damning.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  Now I'm starting to doubt his palate.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  What is the packet that it's covered in?

• 27:34Speaker 09

  Typically, it's like a loose plastic bag. If it comes in paper, like a lot of really nice artisanal baguettes come in like a paper sheet, I will transfer that to a more loose bread bag.

• 27:46Dan Pashman?

  Got it. Sweta, I want to ask you this question. If you are going to keep bread on the counter, rank for me from best to worst of the options of how to store it.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  So if you do like a paper bag, it'll really dry out super quickly. And so most of the supermarket bags that you find, usually you'll find they are plastic bags because then the water transpiration rate is a lot reduced. And so you want to hold the moisture in. But not so much that you get mold in it. So you kind of have to balance out the let the kind of the bread breathe. But also you shouldn't let too much of the air out. That's why you'll find the baguettes, especially with the ones with the comes with a paper bag, dries out super quickly. Because then the the starch just it's just like rice. You know, you put the grain of rice outside, it starts to get really hard like a

• 28:33Dan Pashman?

  And and also a baguette has a lot of surface area in relation to volume. So things can escape from a baguette even more so. So is loose plastic bag the best? Because it sounds like what you're saying, Sweta, is that too tight of a Saran wrap, a plastic wrap could lead to mold. So is loose plastic bag the best?

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Loose and thick plastic bag. It has to be a thicker one. Even in plastic bags, there are different variations of oxygen and water transportation rates. So it has to be that nice thick ones.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  I do have another question, which is, how are you reheating the bread? When you take it out, do you just defrost it and then eat it? Do you put it back in the oven? And similarly, if it's on the counter, like what it because what you do with it is also very important.

• 29:11Speaker 09

  Most of the time, I'd say I would take it out of the freezer and just let it sit on the counter without any heat applied or anything for maybe about an hour so that it comes back to room temperature.

• 29:22Dan Pashman?

  Daniel, is that the best way to defrost bread? Put it on the counter at room temp?

• 29:26Speaker 02

  I would lean towards reheating it.

• 29:29Dan Pashman?

  From frozen?

• 29:31Speaker 02

  I haven't tested it, but you might you might want to let it defrost before you throw it in. You can also there's tricks where you can like wet the crust with water.

• 29:38Speaker 09

  I've done that. I've done it. I've given it a little shower and then put it in the oven. That tends to work really well.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  That kind of delays the it prevents the crust that's already probably pretty baked from browning too fast or burning and buys you more time. And Sweta, do you know like so the starch doesn't really stale, retrograde when it's in the freezer. But it maybe still when it defrosts is firmer, do you think? And that the heat kind of replasticizes the starch? Or am I just BSing here?

• 30:05Speaker 01

  No, no, you're right. I think you you definitely want to reheat. It's just like you take frozen waffles, you know, when you're reheated. That starches are best served at about sixty degrees Celsius. You have to toast it. And then you serve it at, you know, you serve it back.

• 30:20Dan Pashman?

  So right, you you reheat, correct me if I'm wrong, we when you reheat the bread, that sort of undoes. A lot of, but not all of that retrogradation of the starch and you get back to that chewy texture that you would have had when it was fresh.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Yes, and also you want to avoid freezer burn. And that's the other thing I wanted to ask you, Grace, is that when you put it in the freezer, make sure you have those thick plastic. And sometimes I double wrap my bread when I put it in the freezer, just so that I have no freezer burn on it. I always double bag my bread when I put it in the freezer.

• 30:50Dan Pashman?

  Grace, how are you storing bread when you freeze it?

• 30:52Speaker 09

  Oh, I will just do a single layer of plastic. I, Sweta, I really like your suggestion of double bagging.

• 30:58Dan Pashman?

  All right, so I mean, I think we can feel the direction this is headed in, but Daniel, what are your thoughts on this?

• 31:03Speaker 02

  I absolutely agree with you, Grace, that if you cannot eat your fresh bread right away, freezing it well wrapped and also reheating it nicely afterwards is the surest road to enjoying it later. And the fridge is the worst.

• 31:17Dan Pashman?

  Right, the fridge is worse than the counter.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, the fridge is terrible.

• 31:21Dan Pashman?

  Sweta?

• 31:22Speaker 01

  I'm team Grace all the way.

• 31:23Dan Pashman?

  All right.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Great, go ahead and do it and subject your husband to a blind test. I think that would prove the point better. Do a blind tasting test and get him to disprove the theory rather than you trying to prove the theory.

• 31:37Speaker 09

  Sweta, you have such a good point. We are a very pro-blind taste test family, so I think he'd be on board with that.

• 31:45Dan Pashman?

  What other blind taste tests have you done?

• 31:47Speaker 09

  We've done blind taste tests for cider, for root beer, for cheese, for yogurt. We've done a lot.

• 31:55Dan Pashman?

  Wow, this ain't been yet not for the biggest point of contention in your relationship?

• 31:59Speaker 09

  I know, I'm ashamed that I didn't think of it before.

• 32:04Dan Pashman?

  I think also it'd be fun if you just gave him like five different breads and they were all had been frozen.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Hey, no tricks.

• 32:16Dan Pashman?

  That's a classic fun blind taste test trick. Well, Grace in Minneapolis, thanks so much for your call. I hope that you enjoy your next loaf of fresh bread, whether or not it has been previously frozen.

• 32:28Speaker 09

  I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, everyone.

• 32:34Dan Pashman?

  Great work helping grace in Minneapolis. It's time to move on now. Are you two ready for the lightning round? I don't know. I'm scared. Well, you should be.

• 32:44Dan Pashman?

  Okay. Derek asks, is there ever a reason not to use the convection setting on your oven? Sueta?

• 32:51Speaker 01

  You don't use it for baking. You don't use it on things that doesn't need quick drying on the surface. You want a crispy surface. Convection is your friend. If you don't want a crispy surface, you want a moist surface on the top, you don't want to use the convection.

• 33:07Dan Pashman?

  Daniel?

• 33:08Speaker 02

  My colleague at Sirius Eats, Leah Collins, just published something about baking cookies in her air fryer.

• 33:14Dan Pashman?

  And I should note, just in case people don't know, an air fryer is essentially just like a a super convection-y convection oven.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  Precisely.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Wonderful invention.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  But yeah, so if the recipe doesn't say convection, it wasn't developed with convection, I wouldn't turn it on particularly with baking. But you can bake cookies with convection because Leah does it.

• 33:31Dan Pashman?

  I feel like a great cookie should have sort of concentric circles of different textures. So that the very edge perimeter should be crispy. And then you should get, as you move towards the center, you want chewy. And then right in the bullseye, you want gooey.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 33:44Dan Pashman?

  And if you're cooking the cookies in an air fryer and getting more of that drying and crisp and cooking it a little faster, I can imagine accentuating the variation of those textures.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  I could imagine that that that may be right.

• 33:56Dan Pashman?

  All right, maybe I do know something about food science.

• 34:00Dan Pashman?

  All right, let's keep the lightning round moving. Allison in Quebec has an issue. She says, I'm eating a traditional Eastern Quebec salmon pie for lunch, which I bought frozen at the farmer's market. The instructions say to cook from frozen, but the bottom pastry is soggy and basically raw, and it's not getting baked. I've tried defrosting the pie pre-bake, but that doesn't seem to help. Are pre-made frozen pies just doomed to have soggy bottoms? Daniel?

• 34:25Speaker 02

  So one thing she could do is put a baking stone or a baking steel or even a cast iron pen in the oven and preheat that with the oven. So it's really hot and has that retained heat. And put the, I assume the frozen pies in an aluminum pie plate. Put that against the hot surface. That is going to conduct more heat directly into the base of the pie and will increase the chances that she gets some crisping.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would expand on Daniel's idea, which is basically you want to conduct heat to the bottom of the pie. And either you could do that with his cast iron stashed pizza plate idea, or you could just increase the temperature of the oven going in. And then maybe, maybe put a foil on top and then you decrease the oven a little bit to the regular temperature. That way you kind of get the kickstart for the bottom.

• 35:16Dan Pashman?

  All right. One more in the lightning round. Macy in Virginia asks, why are some spicy foods like wasabi felt more in my nose than on my tongue? And why are spicy peppers felt more on my tongue than in my nose? Daniel?

• 35:31Speaker 02

  There's two different molecules at play, or families of molecules, anyway. So for hot peppers, chili peppers, it's capsaicin. And for wasabi, which is in the mustard and brassica family, it is, oh, boy, isothiocyanins, I think. With capsaicin, it's a contact. It gets on your tongue. It

• 35:49Dan Pashman?

  It's the physical contact

• 35:50Speaker 02

  Physical contact.

• 35:51Dan Pashman?

  Of the hot thing on your tongue.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  Primarily, it can vaporize and you can get kind of burning from, I think, capsaicin in the air, but primarily it's on your tongue. It interacts with the pain receptors on your tongue, sends the signal to your brain that you are being hurt. You're not technically being hurt, but it's telling you you are. And you then have a pain reaction, a pain experience and an inflammatory reaction potentially. With the wasabi, the isothiocyanins, say that three times fast. They are volatile. They float up into your nasal passages and they also interact with your pain receptors in your nasal passages.

• 36:27Dan Pashman?

  So capsaicin, hot peppers is more of a, it works more through physical contact and wasabi, mustard, those things work more through airborne transmission?

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's definitely the tendency.

• 36:38Dan Pashman?

  All right. Well, we'll end on that. Before we wrap up, I want to remind everyone listening that we're always looking for folks to call in for these call in episodes with food related disagreements and disputes, your hot takes or questions. If you've got something to say, drop me an email or a voice memo to hello at sporkful.com.

• 36:57Dan Pashman?

  My thanks to everybody who called in, and to Swayta Sivakumar and Daniel Gritzer. Find both of them on seriouseats.com. Swayta also has her Substack and Instagram called Upgrade My Food. Daniel's Instagram is at D Gritzer. Thank you so much to both of you. Thanks for having us.

• 37:12Speaker 10

  Thank you, Dan.

• 37:13Dan Pashman?

  And while you're following people on Instagram, hey, follow me. Sometimes I post video clips from our interviews. I post about things I'm cooking, hanging out with my kids, weird things from my childhood. You never know what's gonna be there. Follow me at The Sporkful. Next week on the show, French reporter Samia Bazil has always hated the idea of eating popcorn at the movies. So she does a deep dive into how it even became a thing, then sees if she can be convinced to love it. That's next week. Why wait for that one? Check out our Friday reheats when we share some of our most beloved, most classic Sporkful episodes, as well as last week's show with actor Stanley Tucci, talking about his classic movie Big Night and his more recent CNN series about Italy. That one's up now. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM

• 37:57Dan Pashman?

  app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. This episode was produced by me along with managing producer-

• 38:23Speaker 10

  Emma Morgenstern.

• 38:24Dan Pashman?

  And senior producer- Andres O'Hara. It was edited by-

• 38:27Speaker 10

  Camille Stanley.

• 38:28Dan Pashman?

  Our engineer is- Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 38:38Speaker 10

  And this is Beth Johnson calling from Antigua, Guatemala, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 39:01Speaker 11

  Fidelity Active ETFs have the flexibility to shift and transform as markets do the same. So instead of just riding an index, they can seek to outperform it by adapting to market conditions and pursuing new opportunities as they emerge. And while you get the potential outperformance of an actively managed fund, you can still buy and sell it on your terms, just like any other ETF. Markets can change in real time. Make sure your ETF can too. Learn more at fidelity.com/activeetfs. Before investing in any exchange traded fund, you should consider its investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. Contact Fidelity for a prospectus, an offering circular, or if available, a summary prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully.

• 39:45Speaker 11

  While Active ETFs offer the potential to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC, member NYSE, SIPC.

• 40:03Speaker 12

  Hey, that's me, Teddy Swims. You hear that? That's life. So go grab it. Grab your old friends, grab new friends, grab a White Claw. Grab flavor for everyone in your group. Grab music, laughter, and moments you'll never forget. You'll never regret it.

• 40:22Speaker 09

  Hey Teddy. Oh, hey, man.

• 40:24Speaker 12

  Grab new friends, grab old friends, grab life by the claw. White Claw. Please drink responsibly. White Claw Celta Works, Chicago, Illinois.