Conflict Expert: Simple Frameworks to Make Hard Conversations Easier (With Jefferson Fisher)

On today’s episode, John Delony sits down with attorney and conversation expert Jefferson Fisher to discuss why winning arguments should not be your end goal. Next Steps: 👨‍💼 Learn more about Jefferson Fisher. 👨‍⚖️ Follow Jefferson on Instagram and subscribe to his YouTube channel. 📙 Preorder The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More on Amazon. 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John's Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors: 🌱 Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. 🔴 Get 15% off with code DELONY at Bon Charge. 🌿 Get up to 40% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth. 🔒 Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. 😇 Go to Hallow for a 90-day free trial. 💤 Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! 🥤 Get 20% off with code DELONY at Organifi. 💪 Get 25% off your order at Thorne. 🏋️ Go to Trainwell to get started! Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  You set yourself up for failure when you try to begin with the pleasantry, the small talk, the soft stuff. So how was your day? It's great. Oh, yeah. Was that good? Oh, did you see John today? And then way. And then you go, and then, exactly. If you haven't heard the end of it, you haven't heard the heart of it.

• 0:19Dr. John Delony?

  I've never considered that, dude. That's a fascinating take, Jefferson. I'm gonna have to stew on that one.

• 0:29Dr. John Delony?

  What in the world is going on? This is John, the Dr. John Deloney Show. So grateful that you are with us. And dude, you are in for it today. You're in for it today. Today is a special, special day for me. I sit down with my friend. We're running it back with the great and powerful and almost all-knowing Jefferson Fisher. Millions and millions and millions of people follow him on the internets. He is a licensed attorney in the Houston area in South Texas, and he's got a thriving practice. And a few years ago, he got in his car and started making helpful little notes for people to use on how to communicate well, and it exploded.

• 1:13Dr. John Delony?

  And we had him in 2023. It was the top episode of the year, and he has a brand-new book coming out called The Next Conversation. It's an outstanding, outstanding book, How to Argue Less and Talk More. One of the most common questions I get on this show is, how do we communicate better with our spouses, with our kids, with our, with our romantic partners, with our bosses, with our friends, with our neighbors? Man, in this, in this conversation, we get into some details on how to have hard conversations. We also do a lightning round where we take your questions that y'all sent in via social media, and we answer those. It's an amazing conversation. I walked away, I learned a lot, and I can't wait for you to check it out.

• 1:57Dr. John Delony?

  So buckle up, pull out a pen and a paper, and enjoy my conversation with my great friend, Jefferson Fisher.

• 2:06Dr. John Delony?

  I want to talk about the four most popular questions we get on the show.

• 2:10Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 2:11Dr. John Delony?

  And there's like five years of me rattling off answers. And I'm gonna hand it over to you because I don't think I'm doing a great job because I keep getting the same questions.

• 2:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, giving me five seconds.

• 2:19Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, alright, so these are four common calls I get and they're challenges here. Alright, so I'm gonna read you how it comes into our team.

• 2:28Speaker 00

  Alright.

• 2:28Dr. John Delony?

  Alright, so people email in or they call in, leave a long message.

• 2:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, most people I've seen like they call in and you're listening to it.

• 2:35Dr. John Delony?

  Exactly, there you go. So here's one that somebody wrote in. My husband treats me like a maid. I'm a stay at home mom, which my husband sees as being unemployed, so he's constantly bossing me around and making messes everywhere with the expectation that I should automatically clean him up because quote unquote, I don't have a job. Now he's complaining I treat him like a roommate and I'm not affectionate enough, but the truth is I don't feel affection towards him anymore. He just feels like a mean boss. And so for me, the meta question here is, how do I say what I want or I need, what I need without sounding horrible?

• 3:10Speaker 00

  One of the biggest mistakes I see, especially in marriage dynamics, is when somebody says, we need to talk. No, I mean, you can text that.

• 3:21Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 3:21Speaker 00

  And nobody likes to get.

• 3:23Dr. John Delony?

  It's off.

• 3:23Speaker 00

  That's right, right, right.

• 3:24Dr. John Delony?

  I, we're officially in a fight now.

• 3:26Speaker 00

  Officially, yeah, you officially hate me, whatever that is. So if, even if you're in the same room, you're texting, you say, we need to talk, period. It automatically goes, somebody's dead or I'm, I might as well be, it's gonna be me here in a little bit, what happened? And you're always looking for the worst thing. There is a sense of tension when you use the phrase need to, as like, you need to go sit down. You need to go do X, Y, and Z, and all we do is get defensive and like, well, what you need to do is. And so we want to match that behavior. And I feel like there's a, it's a way of asserting dominance sometimes. It's like, you need to go sit down, you need to go watch your mouth.

• 4:06Speaker 00

  And so anytime you get that, you want to make sure you don't lead with any kind of phrase that says, we need to, or I need to talk to you. It's gonna immediately draw the spikes. Instead, you need to begin with, can we? Can we talk about something that's important to me? Now, now it says.

• 4:22Dr. John Delony?

  It's an invitation.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  Is now when we say the rules apply to both of us, when you say, can we? So if it is, let's say for this particular caller, can we talk about something that's important to me? That's number one. Number two, you need to tell them where that conversation is going. I feel like particularly with males, like we just look for, is there a bear in the bush? Like what's going on? I need to know where is this conversation coming? Cause if I don't, we're going to cut in, try to fix it, try to solve it, try and like, oh no, this is what you mean. And this spouse says, no, no, no, no, that's not my point. Hear me out. Wait, wait, wait. And we get impatient. Like, can you just get to your point? Instead, it needs to be, and I'm telling you this because I'm feeling unheard here.

• 5:07Speaker 00

  Or I want to walk away from this conversation feeling more understood. Like you just need to give them a heads up of where that conversation is going. Because too often, we don't know what we're talking about until we're already talking.

• 5:21Dr. John Delony?

  Yes. Then we end up saying stuff that you can't get back.

• 5:23Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 5:23Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 5:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. You don't know what to say until you're already talking. And that's when you go to, no, no, give me a second. I'm still figuring out, you know, no, no, that's not my point. So anytime you're trying to land the plane, it's like you're just trying to find the runway when that happens. It typically is going to make the conversation go south. And then three is you need to try and get their buy-in into it. So it would be, can we talk about something that has been weighing on my heart here for a while? And I'm not asking you to solve anything. I just need you to hear me out. Can we do that? Does that sound okay? Is now a good time? And then when you get their buy-in in it, you know, now you're in the conversation because people don't like to break their word.

• 6:00Dr. John Delony?

  And if your husband says, I don't care, you got a bigger issue.

• 6:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, then you have a way bigger issue.

• 6:05Dr. John Delony?

  You gotta solve this thing.

• 6:06Speaker 00

  A way bigger issue than the conversation itself.

• 6:08Dr. John Delony?

  That's not a communication issue.

• 6:09Speaker 00

  That's not a communication issue. That's a relationship issue.

• 6:11Dr. John Delony?

  Do people, I've been wrestling with this when it comes to marriage and intimacy. I want to get your opinion on it because it's adjacent to this. I feel like I can weaponize the word need versus want.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 6:24Dr. John Delony?

  So like one of my challenges with like the five love languages is when I identify a way that it feels good that somebody shows me they love me. Then I tell you, you need to do it like this.

• 6:35Speaker 00

  Right.

• 6:35Dr. John Delony?

  Versus what I think is a more vulnerable approach is, uh, I, I want you to do it like this.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:41Dr. John Delony?

  Cause if I say I, I need to, I've put you on, on the block.

• 6:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:46Dr. John Delony?

  If I say I want to.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  Right.

• 6:48Dr. John Delony?

  You can go, I don't want that. And that's a vulnerable thing, right?

• 6:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 6:51Dr. John Delony?

  Is that right?

• 6:52Speaker 00

  I think that's.

• 6:52Dr. John Delony?

  I'm toying with it.

• 6:53Speaker 00

  No, there's nothing wrong with that. Using needs can be weaponizing in a way. So now this is one of my needs. Needs are more personal than, than they are.

• 7:02Dr. John Delony?

  You can't argue them.

• 7:02Speaker 00

  An obligation.

• 7:03Dr. John Delony?

  I can't argue them.

• 7:04Speaker 00

  Exactly. And, and so a lot of the times you can be even more, like, and people have problems saying to the other person, describing their needs, telling their needs, asserting their needs, rather than using, I like using preferences. It does the same exact thing. So I, I prefer if we did this, I prefer if we do that. It's a more indirect way of saying it, but it's just as strong. Because if I say need, then it goes back into that whole thing of dominance.

• 7:31Dr. John Delony?

  That's it. Then, then you have to, right? And if you don't, then you don't love me.

• 7:34Speaker 00

  You got it. Yeah, yeah. Dennis, why do you hate me?

• 7:37Dr. John Delony?

  Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. Um, here's another call. My wife is constantly accusing me of cheating on her with no logical reason. Ooh, that's a tough one. Other than I always have my phone on me. She has my location, goes through my phone on a regular basis. I'm at my wits end, don't, don't know what to do. Should I take a stand or continue to put up with the disrespect? And the bigger question is, how do you react to somebody who's trying to gaslight you?

• 8:02Speaker 00

  Gaslighting is, uh, something that can absolutely drive you insane because that's, that's what they're accusing you of.

• 8:07Dr. John Delony?

  Right, right.

• 8:08Speaker 00

  The way I like to handle gaslighting is a phrase that I use all the time, and this is what I teach, is I see things differently. I see things differently. And here, if he's already opened up his entire life to this human.

• 8:23Dr. John Delony?

  They've got a deeper pathology.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  They have a, there's a much deeper issue that's engaged in, in that than just gaslighting. But when you handle somebody who's gaslighting you, their whole thing is to kind of. Use a cat with a laser pointer. Like, they just wanna point you to different places in hopes that you don't address their whole issue. So they wanna continue to make you chase. It's kind of a, they'd like to dig a hole. And you have to go, "That's not what happened." And you start filling it back up. "No, that's not how it happened." And they go, "Oh, yeah, you did. You remember this?"

• 8:51Dr. John Delony?

  Right, and you're trying to fill that hole up.

• 8:52Speaker 00

  And then you go, "No, no, no, no, don't you remember?" And, and that's the game, is they continue to use it. If you've ever had somebody, you know the truth went a certain way. You knew the past events went a certain way. And instead, what they're doing is trying to go back in time and go, "Oh, no, don't you remember? You said this, and then I said that, and that's when..." And you go, "That's not what happened." They're controlling the narrative. They try and play it to their best favor. So often, the biggest move you can make is no move at all. And that is just to be still. Say, "Um, I see things differently. I understand you disagree with me."

• 9:23Dr. John Delony?

  Do you wait for an invitation there? To expound?

• 9:28Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:28Dr. John Delony?

  Cause I, cause my, my, I would feel tempted to say, "I see things differently." And then boom, immediately give the counter. But I feel like I'm playing, it's just a sophisticated way of trying to fill that hole back up.

• 9:37Speaker 00

  You got it. That's all it is. So it just needs to be, "I see things differently." Or, "You can disagree with me." I mean, that right there is-

• 9:42Dr. John Delony?

  And then just let it hang?

• 9:43Speaker 00

  Just let it hang. You just stop. Because that's much more powerful than, "That's not what happened. Don't you remember?" And blah, blah, blah. And you're trying to like prove it? All you're doing is just giving them more string to make a knot with. Instead, if you just say, "You can, you're free to disagree with me." Period. Pause. Nothing. What are they gonna do? They have to go find another hole to dig. And then, you know, they're just gonna get tired.

• 10:07Dr. John Delony?

  Um, third one. How do I get my husband? And we can edit this out if you don't wanna go this way. I just get all these kinda calls.

• 10:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:15Dr. John Delony?

  How do I get my husband to try new things in the bedroom? To switch things up, to spice things up? Usually, it's the opposite problem. It's the man saying, "We never do X, Y, or Z. I want my wife to be open to new things." But for us, it's the opposite. I'm not sure what to do. I feel like we're at a stalemate. He seems very closed off and isn't just really interested in me anymore. And so the bigger question here is,

• 10:39Dr. John Delony?

  I think it's two questions. One, how do you approach a topic with your partner that's highly sensitive? That you know you're pushing on a button?

• 10:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:46Dr. John Delony?

  You've gained 40 pounds. You're not coming home anymore. And you and I both know what that means. Um, I wanna try some things romantically and... Um, and then I guess the second question is-

• 10:59Dr. John Delony?

  I guess reverse, how do I bring up a topic that I know like tears are right here?

• 11:04Speaker 00

  Right.

• 11:04Dr. John Delony?

  Or that heartbreak is right here, but I gotta put on the table.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. So the answer really for both of those is almost the same.

• 11:12Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  You, you set yourself up for failure when you try to begin with the pleasantry, the small talk, the soft stuff, the fluff. When you can come into the conversation and it, let's put it in, let's put in a scenario. Maybe not in the bedroom context, but let's say you have something sensitive that you gotta say. And you begin with, so how was your day? That's great. Oh yeah, I was like, good. Oh, did you see John today? Oh, that's wonderful.

• 11:35Dr. John Delony?

  And then wait.

• 11:36Speaker 00

  And then you go, and then, exactly. And then what happens is you hear this, did you hear John today? That's great. Uh, that's crazy. So listen, um, you know, I had, right there, that's a, that's it. That's the transition. You heard it. So listen, and then all of a sudden, everybody knows the temperature in the room has gone down. Now it's, okay, where's she heading with this? I'm feeling like there's something that is hidden from me. You're trying to get to the point of, I wanna bring up this sensitive issue. All they hear is, I'm so bad, I'm so bad, I need to get defensive right now. I'm not so bad. So they need to put up, put up, put up. Instead, you need to just lead with the hard talk.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  So if it is, I, this is what I like to say, let me put in some business context real quick. So if something, somebody's calling me with bad news, like on my team. They're to say, you're not gonna like this, like right out of the gate.

• 12:31Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 12:32Speaker 00

  Soon as I answer it, you're not gonna like this. I go, okay, what we got? Gonna deliver it to me. When you can say things like, this is gonna be a difficult conversation. This is gonna be hard to talk about. This is going to be uncomfortable for me to bring up. This is going to be, I'm going to be vulnerable telling you this. Whenever you can just try and prime the conversation with exactly what it's going to be, this isn't gonna be fun for us to talk about. Then you get into the conversation, rather than trying to come at it indirectly with a whole lot of fluff where they're, it's just gonna work up their anxiety because they don't know where you're going throughout all of it. So that, that would be the biggest takeaway. So if you're saying something that you wanna have like a very sensitive discussion, let's say it is a.

• 13:15Speaker 00

  About things that happen in the home, then I would prefer that you lead very much with the hard intro and that is, this is something that's going to be important to me. That's something that's going to be vulnerable for us to talk about and I'm telling you about it because I know you want me to be vulnerable with you.

• 13:32Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 13:36Dr. John Delony?

  I often find in relationships, especially romantic relationships, that the phrase, we need to work on our communication is proxy for, they're not doing what I want.

• 13:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, when they say we, it's usually like you got a mouse in your pocket.

• 13:52Dr. John Delony?

  He needs to work on his communication.

• 13:54Speaker 00

  Exactly, yeah.

• 13:56Dr. John Delony?

  Or how do you, how do you help the person in this case? She already feels like an oddball.

• 14:02Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:03Dr. John Delony?

  She already feels like there's something wrong with her, right? And so that makes the conversation more personally sensitive. And

• 14:14Dr. John Delony?

  she's not getting the answer that she wants.

• 14:17Dr. John Delony?

  At some point, it feels like, oh, I just need to say it in a different way.

• 14:21Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:21Dr. John Delony?

  How do you teach somebody to exhale and say, no, you got the answer that you got?

• 14:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's hard to teach. Often it is the idea that you have to leave enough room in that conversation for what they're not saying. Often you have people who will very much tell you the truth, but it's in the silence of their words that's the real answer. They, they could say something.

• 14:45Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, like, are you cheating on me?

• 14:47Speaker 00

  Exactly. There's a difference in a pause versus

• 14:52Speaker 00

  of asking the question that comes after, you know, where were you last night? And there's a 10 second pause.

• 14:58Dr. John Delony?

  Right.

• 14:59Speaker 00

  They didn't say anything, but they said a lot.

• 15:01Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, that, that silence there, it may be the absence of words, it's not the absence of communication.

• 15:07Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  And so anytime it is more of the question of what are they not saying? And if it's something very vulnerable, another technique is to really just prime the room, prime the conversation, saying, this is going to be something that is sensitive for me.

• 15:23Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  And they're going to either engage with you or not, but if somebody feels like they're the, the odd person out and they're looking for the answer they're not getting, that's a much deeper relationship issue that communication is not going to solve.

• 15:36Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I think that maybe the magic is trying to find that balance between.

• 15:43Dr. John Delony?

  I'm not communicating in an effective way. Versus, I don't want to hear what the reality, the truth here is. And so I'm going to keep going back and going back and going back.

• 15:55Speaker 00

  Hoping for a different answer.

• 15:56Dr. John Delony?

  Hoping for a different answer, yeah.

• 15:57Speaker 00

  Praying for a different answer.

• 15:57Dr. John Delony?

  And that may just be grief, right? Like, we don't have a psychology culturally for grief, right?

• 16:03Speaker 00

  Of course, yeah. And I also feel that there are people who are in this same type of position and they don't know what answer they're looking for. They don't know the ultimate question of what they want answered.

• 16:16Dr. John Delony?

  Is that because they don't know or they can't handle that answer?

• 16:18Speaker 00

  Both.

• 16:19Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 16:19Speaker 00

  I think, I think some of it is they just know it's a feeling. They don't know for a fact.

• 16:25Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 16:25Speaker 00

  And so they actually don't know the final question of what's the answer that I'm looking for here. They just want to feel a certain way. So most of the time, whenever you find yourself in the same argument, if you haven't heard the end of it, you haven't heard the heart of it. It just is going to continue to go around because you're not, you're not hitting that root cause.

• 16:48Dr. John Delony?

  You've got a great picture in this book that I'd never seen before and I love the way it looks. And it has, it's about something different, but I think it relates here. Because really what this person is asking is herself is can I stay married to somebody who's not romantically interested in me?

• 17:04Speaker 00

  Right.

• 17:05Dr. John Delony?

  Can I stay in this?

• 17:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:07Dr. John Delony?

  We have an 11 year old and a 14 year old. We've been married almost two decades. Is this going to be the rest of my life? That's the question they're asking themselves. And they keep putting that on the other person. Am I going to stay with you? Am I going to, you, you help me?

• 17:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:18Dr. John Delony?

  You have a graph in here where it talks about when somebody asks you something, saying, maybe. And it has discomfort.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:25Dr. John Delony?

  But then the discomfort just goes indefinitely until this thing happens.

• 17:29Speaker 00

  Right.

• 17:30Dr. John Delony?

  And when I saw that, I started laughing because I'm so guilty of saying yes to a speaking event. And then being mad for the next two months at you for asking me and I said yes.

• 17:39Speaker 00

  Right.

• 17:40Dr. John Delony?

  But then you had a, the next picture was saying no and having discomfort high and then falling off.

• 17:45Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 17:46Dr. John Delony?

  And there's something about, you're gonna get the answer, should we stay married?

• 17:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 17:52Dr. John Delony?

  And if you keep looping like this, you've been married 17 years, it may be 30 years when this thing finally dissolves. And so you've lost almost 15 years of your life.

• 18:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 18:01Dr. John Delony?

  Just.

• 18:02Speaker 00

  Waiting.

• 18:03Dr. John Delony?

  Right.

• 18:03Speaker 00

  Waiting.

• 18:04Dr. John Delony?

  And so, how do you teach somebody to get to the question they're actually asking?

• 18:08Speaker 00

  Hmm, that, that takes a lot of inner work of writing it down.

• 18:12Dr. John Delony?

  What actually, that's, yeah.

• 18:13Speaker 00

  I mean, that's just, it's plain and simple. There's a difference between.

• 18:16Dr. John Delony?

  Distilling.

• 18:17Speaker 00

  Keeping it in your head and actually getting it on paper.

• 18:20Dr. John Delony?

  Ah.

• 18:20Speaker 00

  Uh, because that, that's going to make it much more tangible of what am I asking for? What is the question I need this person to answer? Rather than what is the feeling I can convince myself that they're giving me? And it's a big, big difference every time.

• 18:36Dr. John Delony?

  I've never considered that, dude.

• 18:40Dr. John Delony?

  Huh. That's a fascinating take, Jefferson, how often we go into a conversation, especially a difficult one or potentially difficult one. And the answer is secondary.

• 18:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:52Dr. John Delony?

  I wanna feel a certain way when this is over.

• 18:54Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 18:55Dr. John Delony?

  And no other person can give us that.

• 18:58Speaker 00

  Right.

• 18:59Dr. John Delony?

  And so if I ask you, are you cheating? And you say no, I expect to feel better. I'm not gonna feel better.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  No.

• 19:04Dr. John Delony?

  Cause I wouldn't have asked that question if I already felt good about our relationship.

• 19:07Speaker 00

  You got it.

• 19:07Dr. John Delony?

  Or you say yes, I'm gonna feel, and so there is no way that conversation can win.

• 19:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. So if you, you ask that hard question, are you cheating on me? And the answer, and Amy could go, no, the answer to your question, that didn't make you feel any better.

• 19:22Dr. John Delony?

  Because you weren't looking for.

• 19:23Speaker 00

  No.

• 19:24Dr. John Delony?

  A conversational answer, you're looking for a feeling.

• 19:26Speaker 00

  You got it.

• 19:26Dr. John Delony?

  And so you gotta extract that out.

• 19:27Speaker 00

  Yes. And so the person can't give you feelings. And that's, that's all something you have within yourself. I can't make you feel a certain way.

• 19:36Dr. John Delony?

  Right.

• 19:36Speaker 00

  You know that conversation. And so it's the same thing when they, they answer the question, but yet you still feel like I'm, I am, I need, I need, I need that feeling. I need that vacuum from you. Give me all the feelings where I feel comforted.

• 19:51Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 19:51Speaker 00

  Yes, let me feel good and safe and secure. You're not gonna get that, not in the way you asked that question.

• 19:57Dr. John Delony?

  Dude, that's profound. That means I would almost recommend somebody hold off on.

• 20:03Dr. John Delony?

  What I would say like the buck stops here conversation.

• 20:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:06Dr. John Delony?

  Until like you, you write about eloquently until you know exactly what you're asking.

• 20:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, how you want to feel after it.

• 20:12Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 20:12Speaker 00

  Because it's, it can be, even when you get the answer, it can feel very hollow.

• 20:16Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 20:16Speaker 00

  Cause you, you, they're not gonna give you what you were looking for. It was the feeling you were chasing.

• 20:22Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. I'm gonna have to stew on that one, cause I think that's.

• 20:27Dr. John Delony?

  I think that's a huge chunk of the marriage conflicts I enter into sitting with people is I wanted to feel a certain way and it's like.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. I want you to feel like you're connecting with me, be on the same page, but it's like, I'm answering your question.

• 20:38Dr. John Delony?

  There's no answer I can give you to help you feel, yeah.

• 20:41Speaker 00

  I answered your question. What are you talking about? What do you want from me?

• 20:42Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, dang. Okay, last one here.

• 20:48Dr. John Delony?

  We're seeing an epidemic of people cutting their families off. I think one out of every four questions we get. On the show has something to do with, and again, I'm gonna put, I'm gonna put abuse way out here, right outside the book.

• 21:05Dr. John Delony?

  When I was, my parents had me and they're 24 and they didn't give me fill in the blank. My dad is 62 and he votes this way and he won't shut up about whatever. Or every time we go to their house, they're watching this particular news channel, pick your news channel. And I just won't, whatever.

• 21:22Dr. John Delony?

  And then brothers and sisters. So question here is. What are conversations we can have to find out or maybe to still down? Is this a, is this a relationship worth cutting off, worth ending? Or is there just some relationships worth preserving even though they're annoying? Or they're gonna be uncomfortable? You know what I mean?

• 21:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's hard because there are some people, and we know who those people are, who will also weaponize their relationship in a way.

• 21:50Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 21:50Speaker 00

  Weaponize their friendship. If you, like, you do this, so I can't be friends with you anymore. On a base level, I understand that, but also understand you are putting them in a position of almost a threat. Of just that this is, if this is how you want to engage with me, then I can't do that. Depends what they're doing, but there are people who will use that too much when it's like, wait, you only see them maybe once every six months? Like, how much are they really weighing on your? Your peace of mind.

• 22:19Dr. John Delony?

  Right, right.

• 22:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, are you just trying to use this to also control your own environment and how they should react? I mean, my, I mean, you know me, I know you, we're pretty chill.

• 22:30Dr. John Delony?

  You're right, you're right.

• 22:30Speaker 00

  You know, if you're doing, if you're watching a show that I don't agree with, all right. You know, there's, and so it's how much are you carrying? Why are you picking it up? Why are you, why are you holding it? Now, again, if it's that dynamic with they continue to belittle me, put me down, they always make fun of me. They always make me feel less at that family reunion than you don't go. Like, so there's some practical things of just physically, let's put it in the physical sense. Are you, have to be physically near them? Do you have to choose to be around them or talk to them? I mean, that, those are some of your base levels, but.

• 23:06Dr. John Delony?

  And you're talking about in person? I'm like, so much of this nonsense happens in the imaginary zeros and ones world, right?

• 23:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:12Dr. John Delony?

  Like, I hate you because of things that you hearted on somebody else.

• 23:16Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh.

• 23:16Dr. John Delony?

  You're right, it's just, this is domino effect.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  Right, yeah, yeah, I definitely, and I mean, I have, I have my own grandparents that love to use all caps on their Facebook posts.

• 23:26Dr. John Delony?

  Right, you're right, you're right.

• 23:27Speaker 00

  Um, and so it, it, um, it's real easy to go, oh, they just have a different opinion than me, then I need to cut them off. Then this isn't, this isn't serving me anymore. You can get really, I feel like you can get really toxic with that kind of behavior when you put up so many boundaries that you can't move. And so.

• 23:45Dr. John Delony?

  That's a, you said something that gave me the ick, but I think that's.

• 23:49Speaker 00

  That was the point.

• 23:50Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, we have an ROI-ification of human connection these days. Whereas every person who's around me has to be some sort of, for, like, some sort of net benefit to me.

• 24:01Speaker 00

  Right.

• 24:02Dr. John Delony?

  And when someone's quote unquote, not serving me.

• 24:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:06Dr. John Delony?

  For some reason, that, that objectifies friendship and neighbors and parents in a way that's not the way people should connect.

• 24:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that's what I mean about weaponizing. It's they, they objectify it in a way of, well, this, this relationship isn't symbiotic. It's you need to, this isn't serving me anymore. I, I feel like that's a word that is, um, I get to say ick.

• 24:30Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 24:30Speaker 00

  It's just not, it's like, that's not, but there are people who, who won't take a second, they won't hesitate to use that kind of logic. I'm all for. If there is a line where, let's say you are in a position with a friendship and that person has continually just treated you poorly, turns out they're not a friend, they backstab you, they talk bad about you, cut them off.

• 24:54Dr. John Delony?

  Right.

• 24:55Speaker 00

  No problem.

• 24:55Dr. John Delony?

  Right.

• 24:56Speaker 00

  I also, from my own personality and how I see life and I think same way you do, is why, the quickest way to lose your peace of mind is to give someone a piece of yours. So you just need to also let them go. They don't have, because every time you bring them back up, you're putting them on the next page of your book.

• 25:17Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  You're putting them on the next page. Leave them in two chapters back. You don't have to continue. They're not meant to be in the rest of your book. So it is, you can cut them off, sure, and we can talk about, you know, what are the exact words or phrases, but it all goes in the different context. I just, I feel a certain way when people are saying, I need to cut this person off. Go, okay, well, how often are you with them? Is it because they posted something you didn't like?

• 25:43Dr. John Delony?

  Right.

• 25:43Speaker 00

  It's, then what are you caring? Why are you picking up with something they never asked you to hold on to?

• 25:48Dr. John Delony?

  Or have you experienced life untethered to your mom and your dad?

• 25:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 25:53Dr. John Delony?

  Cause it comes at a cost.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:54Dr. John Delony?

  Even if they vote weird and they've got, over the holidays, my mom was explaining to me about how she's figured out this world, like, and I was like, all right. You know what I mean?

• 26:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:05Dr. John Delony?

  But she also, I'm sure I left and she's like, he doesn't even know.

• 26:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:09Dr. John Delony?

  She's still my mom.

• 26:10Speaker 00

  He'll learn.

• 26:10Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, of course.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  She's still my mom. And it's her first time to be a mom too.

• 26:13Dr. John Delony?

  Exactly, right.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  It's her first time living this life.

• 26:15Dr. John Delony?

  That's right, that's right.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  And so you, I, you and I both emphasize the grace that you give other people.

• 26:23Dr. John Delony?

  Right.

• 26:24Speaker 00

  You know, how personally you take what they're doing is a direct reflection of how much grace that you're giving them.

• 26:29Dr. John Delony?

  Right. But that also means.

• 26:34Dr. John Delony?

  And we'll get to this later on in the show. That's the teaser for it to come back. But that means you and I have to be whole outside of that interaction.

• 26:43Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 26:43Dr. John Delony?

  Because if I need you to serve me so that I can breathe.

• 26:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:51Dr. John Delony?

  That's too much weight for another person to carry.

• 26:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, if I've made myself dependent on your supply.

• 26:56Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 26:56Speaker 00

  It's a problem.

• 26:57Dr. John Delony?

  It's a problem because that means I'm using you like a Xanax. I mean, then I'm a parasite.

• 27:01Speaker 00

  Like a Flintstone item.

• 27:02Dr. John Delony?

  That's it. Exactly. Awesome. All right, we'll be right back.

• 27:05Speaker 00

  All right.

• 27:08Dr. John Delony?

  This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Listen, right now, BetterHelp is offering the biggest discount I've ever seen. 90% off your first week now through March 31st. Listen, you've heard me say this a thousand times, you're worth being well, and I believe that therapy can help. So if you've been on the fence, this is your chance to try therapy for a fraction of the cost. 90% off your first week. And let's be honest, we all spend money on things that we hope will make us feel better. Like streaming subscriptions, new clothes, gym memberships, organic groceries. Some of y'all are even essential oil people, but when it comes to actually digging in and getting real about our mental and emotional well being, we hesitate. Please hear me, your mental and emotional health is just as important as your physical health.

• 27:53Dr. John Delony?

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• 28:36Dr. John Delony?

  All right, good folks, the modern world exposes us to things that were unheard of until just a few decades ago. And I don't mean lame AI influencers or scrolling and scrolling and scrolling. I'm talking about all the screens in our homes and our offices, fluorescent lights, EMFs, these things that can affect our mood, our sleep, our anxiety, and more. And that's why I'm so excited to partner with Bon Charge, a world leader in red light therapy and EMF blocking gear. I use Bon Charge products literally all of the time, every single day, and I love them. And here's why I think you'll love them too. Studies show that red light therapy can help boost your mood, reduce stress, and help with sleep.

• 29:19Dr. John Delony?

  Red light therapy can also help you recover from aches and pains, transform your skin, and even help with cellulite and stretch marks. My red light therapy panels, the infrared sauna blanket, the EMF mat, and more have become a cornerstone of my health and wellness routine. I use them every day. And I want you to check out Bon Charge's other amazing products like blue light glasses, EMF protection products, infrared sauna blankets, and 100% blackout sleep masks, and more. Go to boncharge.com/doloney and use coupon code doloney to save 15%. That's B-O-N-C-H-A-R-G-E, boncharge.com/doloney, and use coupon code doloney to save 15%. Go check them out.

• 30:03Dr. John Delony?

  So, talk to me about this book, dude. It's awesome.

• 30:07Speaker 00

  Thanks, man.

• 30:07Dr. John Delony?

  It's fantastic.

• 30:08Speaker 00

  Thanks, dude.

• 30:08Dr. John Delony?

  I was hoping it was gonna be terrible, and it's not. It's really good, man. It's frustratingly good.

• 30:12Speaker 00

  That's funny.

• 30:13Dr. John Delony?

  Tell me about it. How'd it come about?

• 30:16Speaker 00

  It came about, I never thought, John, I never thought I'd ever write a book, ever. I just never, never, it was never on my bingo card. And when I was posting my content, the stuff on Instagram, we'd just have these comments, "If you need to write a book, please write a book." I'd go, "Well, I guess I need to write a book." So I had to, I Googled, "How do you write a book?" And so I've been through that whole process. And the team that's publishing it said, "I think you really have something to say." And I said, "Well, okay, we'll figure it out." So what this book does is it distills really My framework for how I communicate.

• 30:47Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 30:47Speaker 00

  And my prayer is that when they, when they read this, they really don't need me anymore. Like, there's the, there's the, the, the framework. The framework is that when you speak, when you need to say what you need to say, you're gonna say it with control, you're gonna say it with confidence, you're gonna say it to connect. And those three really are your foundation for almost any conversation. Where you don't, you can start making your own Jefferson Fisher communication videos. Um, and the, the whole premise is that you can change everything in your life by changing the next conversation. I know that it doesn't matter what I said in the last one. I can change everything with simply what I say next.

• 31:22Dr. John Delony?

  Say next, yeah. So, control, connect, and confidence.

• 31:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:30Dr. John Delony?

  You launch into this thing, I don't wanna give away too much. You launch into this book with, the, when I opened the, when I turned the page, I started laughing. And I was like, well, there's 95% of my life.

• 31:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:41Dr. John Delony?

  And it is, don't try to win the argument. Don't try to win connection.

• 31:46Speaker 00

  Right.

• 31:46Dr. John Delony?

  Talk to me about that.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, so the, the whole-

• 31:48Dr. John Delony?

  That's my whole life.

• 31:49Speaker 00

  But, that's funny.

• 31:51Dr. John Delony?

  With every, with my dog, I'm trying to win. With my, you know what I mean?

• 31:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:55Dr. John Delony?

  Um, yeah, help me, bro.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, the, the whole premise of the book is to never win an argument. We have so many blogs and there's other books out there, How to Win Every Argument. I just think it's, it's snake oil. I just, it's empty, it's not gonna get you anywhere. Because when you win, you lose a lot more. You lose their respect, you lose the relationship. What did you win? I mean, okay, you and I are in an argument, I send that zinger that's gonna hurt and burn in your eyes, and you walk off and I won, great. Now what?

• 32:29Dr. John Delony?

  It's like, it's like the, like the golf clap, like, congrats, bro.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, you got it. And it's, what did you win? Congrats, you, you won their contempt. You won the awkward silence now as you pass each other down the hall. You still have to probably work with this person, you probably still have to live.

• 32:43Dr. John Delony?

  You're married to them.

• 32:44Speaker 00

  Exactly. And now, yeah, all you've won now is the, to be first up to apologize. That's what you've won, congrats. Congrats, good, yeah, uh, just enjoy that trophy. And so, the whole, the whole premise is- To never win an argument because you'll start to lose the relationship. And what you need to do is stop seeing arguments as something to win and as knots to unravel. When you can start, instead of pulling your way or my way and starting to go, help me see the knot. Begin to unravel them, meaning having something to learn rather than something to prove. Your life is going to be a whole lot better.

• 33:19Dr. John Delony?

  That feels like it takes an astonishing amount of inner confidence.

• 33:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:25Dr. John Delony?

  To be able to exit a conversation.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 33:28Dr. John Delony?

  When you know the person wasn't right, when you know the person. I remember the first, the first time I, I call them many depositions. It was, it was student conduct matters, but there were rooms surrounded by attorneys, right? And so I'm not technically getting deposed, but you're getting deposed.

• 33:42Speaker 00

  You are.

• 33:43Dr. John Delony?

  And I remember, um, it was a mutual colleague of ours, um, Rob being like, hey, stop talking.

• 33:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:49Dr. John Delony?

  Stop. And it was like, I have to, and it was like, almost like a be confident.

• 33:55Speaker 00

  Right.

• 33:56Dr. John Delony?

  Like just say what you need to say, be quiet.

• 33:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 33:58Dr. John Delony?

  And I realized my need to keep talking was because I wasn't super, super certain about what I was saying.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  Right.

• 34:05Dr. John Delony?

  But when I think about that with my spouse, when I think about that with my kids, when I think about that with my kid's teacher. Where do we get that inner confidence?

• 34:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:15Dr. John Delony?

  Cause I, I think you have to have that to be able to say, I don't have, I don't have to win this thing.

• 34:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why, and it's, it's a logical question because, and it's a, everybody's got this of, that's why rule two, rule two is say it with confidence.

• 34:29Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 34:29Speaker 00

  Because what happens is the, the more you, words you give, the less you say.

• 34:34Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 34:35Speaker 00

  The longer it takes you to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie.

• 34:39Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 34:40Speaker 00

  You know, the, the, if you really know a topic, you don't have to explain a whole lot. So confidence is very quiet. Insecurities are very loud. Like you've ever been at a meeting? And it's the person who typically has the most to say, has to have the, you know what? I'd like to give my take and they always have to give something in it who knows the least about it.

• 35:01Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 35:02Speaker 00

  The least in touch with what's going on in that company or that culture. Whereas the leader is typically very quiet.

• 35:08Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 35:08Speaker 00

  They know they don't have to say anything. Confident people know that they don't have to say anything if they don't want to. Insecure people have to say everything. They need to name drop. They need to make you know how smart I am, how many people I know, how many people have been on my show.

• 35:24Dr. John Delony?

  Right, right.

• 35:25Speaker 00

  You know, it's the names that they'll just like to drop just so that you know. It's really that insecurity that's talking at the, at the baseline.

• 35:35Dr. John Delony?

  I remember, um, this is right when I was starting this new weird world that we're in.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  It is weird.

• 35:40Dr. John Delony?

  And I saw an interview with Jaco.

• 35:42Speaker 00

  Oh, nice.

• 35:43Dr. John Delony?

  And the interviewer was like, all right, so somebody steps to you and your wife on the streets in San Diego. Like, what do you do? And I remember him just quietly, well, I probably just grab her hand and walk across the street and get on that sidewalk. And I remember, I'm paraphrasing it, but he said, but what about, like, you got to defend her honor? And he said with a smile, if it takes me beating up a vagrant on the side of the street, like to show my wife I honor her, I have failed her in every way. But it was like that, I remember going, oh, that's tough.

• 36:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, that's confident.

• 36:16Dr. John Delony?

  And then he went on to say, there's a handful of men on earth that could defeat me in hand. I can, but the flex is.

• 36:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:23Dr. John Delony?

  And I guess.

• 36:24Speaker 00

  So he knew he had that power, though.

• 36:26Dr. John Delony?

  And that gives you the power to walk away.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:29Dr. John Delony?

  Are there situations where, um,

• 36:34Dr. John Delony?

  I'm trying to think of something outside of safety when I have to, I've got to dig my heels in. Is that ever a worthy move?

• 36:42Speaker 00

  When you need to stand your ground?

• 36:43Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 36:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, but the whole thing of standing your ground, standing up for yourself is asking the question, is this person worth getting out of your chair for?

• 36:56Dr. John Delony?

  So it's just limiting the number of heels you're gonna die on?

• 36:58Speaker 00

  You got it.

• 36:58Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 36:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I agree with my dad going, don't make that your alamo. Is that gonna be your alamo? Like, is this really?

• 37:04Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 37:04Speaker 00

  Is this really? I mean, that would be his thing. I'd come to him with a problem, he'd go.

• 37:10Speaker 00

  Okay, so, and I go, but you don't understand. I go, this is happening, this is happening. Go, so, I mean, and eventually water me down to where you're at. I don't know why I'm making a big deal about it. Yeah, and so it's, it's a mindset of the confidence of knowing I don't have to act. I don't have to move. It's typically the most powerful people say very little. The, it's the little dog that yips the most.

• 37:36Dr. John Delony?

  That, yeah, yeah, yeah, just runs, runs, runs. Man, okay, here's something else I took away from this book that was pretty heavy.

• 37:43Speaker 00

  Thanks for reading it, by the way.

• 37:44Dr. John Delony?

  No, man, it's outstanding. It's frustratingly good, because I can't write that good. I want to talk about, it's kind of a, um, I'm going to bridge the gap between that question and the next one.

• 37:59Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 38:00Dr. John Delony?

  How do we try not to win everything in a world that's always competing with us? Because I think the temptation is just, I'm going to take my ball and go home.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:09Dr. John Delony?

  How do I stay present at a table? And you do this for a living. How do you stay present at a table? Unhook from every other emotionally reactive person?

• 38:17Speaker 00

  Hmm, you have to add a lot of silence. So when you can add distance between what somebody has said and how you respond, it, every time, it gives you a lot more control. And especially the perception of control. So let's say you and I are having it out. And all of a sudden, you just throw the worst insult ever. And I don't say anything back.

• 38:43Dr. John Delony?

  It's the worst, man. It's the worst.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  I mean, like.

• 38:45Dr. John Delony?

  It's like hitting somebody and they just look at you.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 38:48Dr. John Delony?

  It's Will Smith and Chris Rock. He hits him and he just looked at him.

• 38:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:51Dr. John Delony?

  And I was like, oh, that's, that's bad. It looks bad, right?

• 38:54Speaker 00

  Still looks bad.

• 38:54Dr. John Delony?

  It's, it does, but it will reverberate.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  Forever.

• 38:57Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 38:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:58Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  So whenever you, when somebody walks himself out on a plank, and you just let them hang there, I mean, that's, that's the, that's where you really have your sense of, your power move of using silence, because they know that they walked off on that ledge. So when you say unplug, it's really the, the concept of.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  Knowing the power of the pause, knowing that I don't have to say anything. Yeah, you can take your ball and go home, but it's more of the basis of I just don't have to move because I'm confident in what I know and what I have to say. Same thing we were talking about gaslighters. That idea of when you're confident, I see things differently. Now, you can disagree with me. That's fine. It's okay to disagree. And I mean, now you're cool.

• 39:47Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 39:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, now you're cool, Han Luke. Otherwise, when you're having to go, no, no, no, no, that's not true. And you're bouncing every which way, you're getting heightened, you're yelling. Now you're saying, I'm grasping for control. One with the pause says, no, I'm, I'm in control. Much, much different feeling, much different vibe.

• 40:07Dr. John Delony?

  So I guess the next evolution of that question is, talk to me about defensiveness.

• 40:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:13Dr. John Delony?

  And I guess what that communicates.

• 40:16Speaker 00

  Right. Funny thing about defensiveness is we, it becomes this cycle. So you take something, somebody says a certain way, and you don't like it. So you get defensive. You say something defensive. Well, in turn, the other person gets defensive and now you're convinced you're under attack. And so like, it becomes this loop, what I call a self fulfilling prophecy, that you say, I thought you were mad at me, kind of thing. You convince yourself that you were mad at somebody. When you get defensive, it's like locking the door in your room and then being mad at somebody that they can't come in. Like, they should understand me.

• 40:59Speaker 00

  You still expect them to cater to your needs when you've totally blocked out all of theirs. And so it just, it creates this wall that they should know, they should know how I feel. They should know that would upset me, but you care nothing about what's happening to the other person. Now, there's a, you can do certain things and techniques to prevent defensiveness from the other person. It's very hard to prevent defensiveness in yourself, aside from just dropping it, not taking things so personally.

• 41:27Dr. John Delony?

  Hard.

• 41:27Speaker 00

  It's extremely hard, but most of the time, the yell that somebody's giving you is truly just a bid for connection. Because they're, they're tight, they're tensioned, they're wanting you to hear. It's most of the time the yell is them wanting to feel like they are connected in some way. Now, it depends what they're yelling.

• 41:47Dr. John Delony?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, that could be very different. But the whole idea of defensiveness is that it is probably the number one conversation killer.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  If I were to tell you, you say something to me and I go, I can tell I'm getting defensive at that. Now, when you hear that, does that make you sound like I know what I'm doing? Like I'm in control of myself or I'm not?

• 42:10Dr. John Delony?

  When you say that I'm getting defensive about that.

• 42:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, if I say I can tell I'm getting defensive about that.

• 42:14Dr. John Delony?

  That makes me feel like you're weak.

• 42:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:15Dr. John Delony?

  When you say that.

• 42:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:19Dr. John Delony?

  But also, because I want to be like, when you say that, like, I'm getting defensive about that. I feel like, like if that's the goal here.

• 42:28Speaker 00

  Well, it's because you're a bully, that's why.

• 42:30Dr. John Delony?

  But then come at you. But also, it is.

• 42:40Dr. John Delony?

  I keep going back to fighting analogies, but that's you creating distance from us. I can't hit you.

• 42:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, you got it.

• 42:45Dr. John Delony?

  I can't, I'll swing again and that's you saying like, I feel my body doing X, Y, and Z. And so I'm getting out of striking distance. And as a guy that's trying to fire you up, that annoys me.

• 42:57Speaker 00

  That's a great metaphor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I once had a trial where the, we were probably halfway through. And this guy on the other side was such a fireball that he'd just get so heated about everything. And halfway through in a break, he goes, man, I really don't like you. I said, oh, that's okay, you know? He goes, no, no, I like you. I mean, you're great. He goes, the thing is, he goes, you don't give me an enemy. He goes, I can't get mad at you. He's like, I can't, he goes, usually I try and make an opponent. So I've become, like, before trial, of course, personally, we're fine. But when it comes to courtroom.

• 43:35Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, you put the gloves on and get after it.

• 43:36Speaker 00

  Exactly, it's like I'm the opponent. And so he wants to feel justified in saying mean things and this other side. And they're the, they're the enemy. But I never gave him that. Because I didn't, I didn't deserve it. You know, I hadn't done anything rude. I was always continuing to be kind and this like just water off a duck's back kind of thing. And that's, that's a main key is most people are just looking for an enemy when it comes to conversation. They're wanting to find a way to be mad at you.

• 44:07Dr. John Delony?

  So I would say the next derivative then is actually, I don't know if they're looking for an enemy as much as they're looking to feel justified being in a soup of their own feelings.

• 44:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:16Dr. John Delony?

  And the way they can feel justified in feeling miserable is if you're, if it's your fault.

• 44:21Speaker 00

  Perfect. You got it. That's it.

• 44:23Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 44:24Speaker 00

  That's it. They, they want to feel, they feel a certain way. So they need to dump it on somebody and it just, you happen to be the living thing in the room.

• 44:32Dr. John Delony?

  All right. So that, that distills down. Can I tell you what the biggest thing I left with this book?

• 44:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:39Dr. John Delony?

  Um, and disagree with me if you're like, that's not really what I meant. Um, this may be one of the top three or four countercultural books I've ever read.

• 44:49Speaker 00

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 44:50Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Here's what I mean about that.

• 44:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:52Dr. John Delony?

  I don't know that I've read a book in the last 10 years, maybe Arthur Brooks, that I closed the book and thought Jefferson sees more capability in me than I do.

• 45:08Speaker 00

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 45:09Dr. John Delony?

  And if I step back and look at the cloud hanging over our culture, it is I've got fill in the blank diagnostic, I've got fill in the blank childhood trauma. I got fill in the blank X, Y, or Z malady. And culture has convinced us over the last 25 years, you're irrevocably broken. Just go to the margin, we'll pat you on the head and we'll take care of it.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 45:34Dr. John Delony?

  Cause you can't.

• 45:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:36Dr. John Delony?

  And as I was going through this, I, I would say like, don't win the argument. I'm like, all right, man, but like. That means I have to just sit here and be cool.

• 45:46Speaker 00

  Right.

• 45:47Dr. John Delony?

  And I know me well enough to know that means I gotta still go see a counselor. And that guy, that means I gotta get with my wife once a week and plan the week out so that I give her some peace, so that I can have some peace. That means that I gotta exercise most of the time. Otherwise, I'm just kind of a ball of.

• 46:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:03Dr. John Delony?

  And it, I kept hearing this, oh, you can.

• 46:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:07Dr. John Delony?

  You can. Or don't get defensive, or get up and walk away, or just don't answer.

• 46:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:14Dr. John Delony?

  Nobody in culture is saying that. They're telling you how to fight back.

• 46:19Speaker 00

  Right.

• 46:19Dr. John Delony?

  How to slip the punch and swing. And so a, a, a statement I've been making over and over recently is, and it's just me, kind of a refrain that I'm repeating to myself, is I'm not solving for net worth. I'm not solving for the greatest sex in my, I'm solving for peace.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:37Dr. John Delony?

  In my house. And for me and my family, it means I'm not giving anybody any money. Right? If, if you can't take my house from me, then I'm gonna be, right? If you can't take my car from me, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna have peace.

• 46:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 46:45Dr. John Delony?

  I'm gonna solve for having hard conversations with my wife way up, upstream, so it doesn't turn into a nightmare.

• 46:52Dr. John Delony?

  But nobody's telling us we can do that. And that's this whole stinking book is you looking and be like, no, you can.

• 46:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:57Dr. John Delony?

  You can.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  That's awesome.

• 46:59Dr. John Delony?

  Do you sense the, the?

• 47:03Dr. John Delony?

  All right, let me ask you this. You work in the messy ugliness of people's lives on a day to day basis.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 47:10Dr. John Delony?

  You wouldn't have a job if injustices didn't happen to other people.

• 47:13Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 47:15Dr. John Delony?

  What gives you the belief in everybody? No, you can.

• 47:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. Cause I've seen it. I've seen it, and that's a wonderful takeaway that, it's a really just blessing to hear that from me, John, really. I've seen it. And my experience in the courtroom, depositions, cross-examination, just the everyday trenches of conflict. I have seen people that. Could not go into a room without crying, shaking uncontrollably. I have seen what I've been able to do once I spend time with them and teach them how to communicate. By the time that they're on the deposition, when they're on the stand in the courtroom, you would never have even known it. And it's like, I know it. I know that they can. Because I've seen the transition by just a few phrases of letting their breath be the first word.

• 48:06Dr. John Delony?

  That's a great story. I want to give it away. That woman is, that's a great story.

• 48:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's just little bitty things like that where I have been able to see them transform into everything about them, simply by what they say next. And by putting them in a position to where, rather than trying to control other people, the magic happens when all they need to do is control themselves and magical things happen. And it's a message that I don't believe that culture is really talking about. I never really thought about that until you just said that. I guess it is very counter-culture, very counter-intuitive.

• 48:46Dr. John Delony?

  I mean, you do a good job here of talking about like, when your body goes to fight or flight, you're not, you, you, your body protects you from thinking through your next steps. It just wants you to react.

• 48:56Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 48:57Dr. John Delony?

  And so we have an entire culture that's electric with reaction.

• 49:02Speaker 00

  Oh, they prefer it?

• 49:02Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. And so if somebody like Jefferson says, no, no, I think you can. And I can lead with my breath. If I can exhale, if I can do the work to be confident when I sit down at a table, not have, gosh, dude, the most common thing I ask on my show is, does that make sense? Right? After I give this explanation, here's what you need to do next.

• 49:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:20Dr. John Delony?

  Cool, cool, cool. Like, are we still friends, right? And like, just being able to say, hey, trust, trust yourself. And if you don't trust yourself, maybe you don't say anything, right?

• 49:31Dr. John Delony?

  But that allows me to not live in a world of reactivity. And then maybe I can be the only thinking mind in, in, at my dinner table or with my family. And when that happens, you can smile.

• 49:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:40Dr. John Delony?

  Granddad can say whatever and you can be like, alright.

• 49:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's been good to see you.

• 49:45Dr. John Delony?

  Exactly. Hey, we're gonna stay one night. It's Thanksgiving. We're gonna stay one night.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:48Dr. John Delony?

  And we'll have fun. We'll talk politics and talk how Pfizer, we'll do that. And then you'll have a great one. You know what I mean? And we laugh all the way home. Or... Yeah, I'm just gonna outsource my... to everybody.

• 50:01Speaker 00

  It's hard.

• 50:01Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, it is. So I guess, um...

• 50:03Speaker 00

  But that's the challenge.

• 50:04Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah. So I guess, thank you for believing in people.

• 50:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 50:08Dr. John Delony?

  And I, I, I hope people read this and they exhale and say, okay, when I can't see belief in myself, I got a toolkit now that my dad didn't have, that my granddad didn't have,

• 50:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:19Dr. John Delony?

  that my mom didn't have, but there's a guy who believes in me.

• 50:22Speaker 00

  And I was able only to get it because there are people who believe in me?

• 50:25Dr. John Delony?

  That's right, that's right, yeah.

• 50:26Speaker 00

  That's how it goes.

• 50:27Dr. John Delony?

  All right, when we get, come back, we will do some rapid fire, straight from social.

• 50:31Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 50:31Dr. John Delony?

  Awesome.

• 50:34Dr. John Delony?

  All right, it's Sleep Awareness Month, so now is a good time to shout out my friends at Helix and remind you that sleep is foundational to every single part of your overall well-being. And all of us know the critical importance of a good night's sleep, and we all know how great it is to have a safe, cool, dark place to sleep, and an amazing, comfortable mattress. My Helix mattress has helped me to get to sleep faster and to sleep more deeply, so I wake up super refreshed. And I love Helix so much that I got a Helix mattress for each of my kids, my sister, and even the revolving door of guests who come to stay with me all sleep on a Helix. And here's why Helix is great. They offer a mattress for every person's different sleep style.

• 51:19Dr. John Delony?

  If you run hot at night, if you got concerns with your spine, if you sleep on your back, on your side, or your stomach, however you sleep, Helix has a mattress for you. Plus, Helix offers a 100-night trial, and every Helix mattress comes with a 10- or 15-year warranty, so there's really no risk. Listen, during Sleep Awareness Month, let's prioritize real sleep. Get online and take the Helix Sleep Quiz, just like I did, and you'll find the perfect mattress for yourself in about two minutes or less. Go to helixsleep.com/duloni today for 25% off site-wide. That's 25% off everything site-wide at helix, H-E-L-I-X, helixsleep.com/duloni.

• 52:02Dr. John Delony?

  With Helix, better sleep starts right now. I reached out to, um, people on social media, my favorite place to...

• 52:10Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah?

• 52:12Dr. John Delony?

  I'm not great at it.

• 52:12Speaker 00

  You do fine.

• 52:14Dr. John Delony?

  I do fine, but...

• 52:15Speaker 00

  You do great. What's wrong with you?

• 52:16Dr. John Delony?

  I appreciate it. Good. I'm working on it.

• 52:18Speaker 00

  You really do. I, I've been watching your stories. I always heart your stuff.

• 52:21Dr. John Delony?

  You are?

• 52:24Dr. John Delony?

  Gotta tell you, occasionally I'll be like, in my car, I'll be getting out and be like, "I got something."

• 52:28Speaker 00

  You could.

• 52:29Dr. John Delony?

  Not getting in the car. I'm not doing that in the car.

• 52:30Speaker 00

  Why not?

• 52:31Dr. John Delony?

  That's like coming into your house and, no way dude.

• 52:33Speaker 00

  I got plenty of room.

• 52:34Dr. John Delony?

  I love the... I'll sit in the... I'm gonna start doing that. I'm gonna start doing it in the third row.

• 52:37Speaker 00

  Let's do it.

• 52:38Dr. John Delony?

  That's awesome. All right, here's the social questions rapid fire. You ready?

• 52:42Speaker 00

  I'm ready.

• 52:44Dr. John Delony?

  I posted a picture of us and said, "What questions do you want me to ask Jefferson?"

• 52:48Speaker 00

  And I have no idea what we're asking.

• 52:49Dr. John Delony?

  No, no, this is live. I love it.

• 52:51Speaker 00

  Live.

• 52:51Dr. John Delony?

  All right. What are your go-to open-ended questions to help people open up?

• 52:56Speaker 00

  Hmm, this is a good one that I like. I got this one from Chris Voss and Louis Howes, I think Louis got it from Voss, who's a fantastic friend.

• 53:07Dr. John Delony?

  Who's a mastermind.

• 53:07Speaker 00

  Who's a fantastic guy and friend.

• 53:08Dr. John Delony?

  He's a mastermind.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  Um, is opening with, "What's the chance?"

• 53:12Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 53:12Speaker 00

  "What's the chance we can talk about X, Y, and Z? What's the chance you'd be willing to go with me to do?"

• 53:17Dr. John Delony?

  Where?

• 53:18Speaker 00

  That's a wonderful opening to question. For people curious, open-ended questions are questions that don't assume the answer. Like, "Where did you go yesterday?" You can go anywhere. A closing to question is, "Did you go to the store yesterday?" So, closing to question assumes what the answer is. If you only have a yes or a no response, it's a close-ended. You want to open it up to get them talking. You can also begin your stuff with what or how, but don't begin it with why.

• 53:44Dr. John Delony?

  And I would add on to that, unless you're doing a murder investigation, don't ask. Don't...

• 53:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, for all you out there.

• 53:53Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, for all you not investigating murder. Don't try to catch people in lies. Life's too short. Your kids, your spouse, like, you know what I mean? Um, there's something about, "Where were you last night?" If you know you're at the store, you know, lead with...

• 54:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, if people feel like they're walking into a trap and in fact, then later you spring the trap, you just lost trust.

• 54:16Dr. John Delony?

  Forever.

• 54:16Speaker 00

  Forever. That's all you've done. It's not like you've proven your point. You've just...

• 54:21Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, all right. Ooh, this one's kind of close to home, kind of cool. "I'm a 1L, I'm a first-year law student, who is..."

• 54:32Dr. John Delony?

  Doesn't like conflict, public speaking and gets flustered easily. What are some tips?

• 54:37Speaker 00

  Oh, um, well, if you're in law school, I would still, I'm sure your law school has advocacy. First of all, this is very transactional like answer, but your school, your school probably has advocacy teams. I highly encourage those. They're a great way to, to learn and do any of that. If you get flustered, understand that that's probably just a sense of your nervous system. You, you need to be much more available to adding your breath. Breath is what's going to control those nerves. Um, and also understand if you just don't want to be somebody in the courtroom, you don't have to be. There's tons of trained exiled attorneys that never see the light of day of a courtroom and do wonderful things in the world.

• 55:17Dr. John Delony?

  You can have a good life and not get on a stage.

• 55:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. You can, uh, I mean, I, I know lots of attorneys that even go into a hearing would terrify them. So it's just takes all their time. They got, they got it. Go with what's natural.

• 55:31Dr. John Delony?

  How do you recover when you say that thing and the conversation goes bad?

• 55:38Speaker 00

  Oh, how do you recover? Immediately say, I should not have said that.

• 55:41Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 55:42Speaker 00

  Put it out there. Immediately take ownership of it.

• 55:44Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 55:44Speaker 00

  Like that, if you can say, I shouldn't have said that, or immediately that was unfair, or that was, that was unhelpful. Like you need to say what they're thinking. You have to go ahead and say what they're already accusing you of. That wasn't nice. That was unfair. That wasn't helpful.

• 56:03Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Or that hurt. Like almost even what they're feeling.

• 56:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:06Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 56:07Speaker 00

  That's, that's, you have to get that out front, apologize, depending on what you said, get back on it. But the, the longer you delay, like if you withhold that apology, there's lots of people where you know, all they have to do is apologize and they're wrong.

• 56:20Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 56:21Speaker 00

  They'll, they'll hold it. It only makes things worse.

• 56:26Dr. John Delony?

  How do you politely disagree with someone who isn't mature and who has narcissistic tendencies?

• 56:32Speaker 00

  Hmm, well, let's just put it as, how do you disagree with really anybody?

• 56:36Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 56:36Speaker 00

  I mean, you can disagree with a narcissist versus, it's the same, same thing. One is like we talked about, I see things differently. Another is, I lean differently, or I lean the opposite, I tend to lean the opposite. Uh, or I take another approach. I love to have, I take another approach.

• 56:54Dr. John Delony?

  I was gonna say, that one feels right.

• 56:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I like that one a lot. Uh, did you say, um, I, I take another approach? Period. I don't have to justify it.

• 57:04Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I don't have to explain it.

• 57:05Speaker 00

  I don't have to explain it at all. So, if it's, I tend to lean the opposite. So, I see things differently, I take another approach, or I tend to lean the opposite. The, the reason why I tend to lean the opposite is a little bit different because I'm giving them a history of what I typically do. I tend to. I tend to lean the opposite. That means I'm not just basing what you said right now. I'm just giving you, what I'm applying right now is what I apply to everything.

• 57:32Speaker 00

  So that way they don't feel nearly as, as called out. Say, this is just how my, this is how I typically handle things, but I tend to take another approach, or I take a different approach.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:45Dr. John Delony?

  This is kind of a, an aside here. Y'all can edit this how you want. This is an important question that just came to mind.

• 57:50Speaker 00

  Ready?

• 57:52Dr. John Delony?

  Is your ability, and I need to mine myself to ask my ability, is your ability to detach

• 58:03Dr. John Delony?

  and be still? Come from a place of, I could eviscerate you if I needed to. Could you play Dirty Lawyer if you needed to?

• 58:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 58:11Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Cause I, I wonder, I'm going back to that Jaco, Jaco question. It's not brave if he's not one of the strongest men on earth and has to run across the street.

• 58:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:24Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 58:24Speaker 00

  Right.

• 58:25Dr. John Delony?

  It's brave when I could and I'm gonna go across the street here. So as part of this, knowing, oh, I can really hurt my spouse and I'm not going to. I'm gonna choose.

• 58:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:34Dr. John Delony?

  That feels like, I don't know, there's something about it that makes it more powerful. Like you need to mine yourself and know how you can hurt people so that.

• 58:40Speaker 00

  Right. Yeah, it's, I mean, I, I know that if I had to play what as you term dirty lawyer.

• 58:47Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, mean lawyer.

• 58:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, mean lawyer. Like, I could. I could say really, I could say things, I could say things that would like hurt your childhood.

• 58:54Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:57Speaker 00

  But I, I have also had the wisdom poured into me from my family, my dad, my mom, and, and my walk of knowing that's a very lonely, empty road.

• 59:10Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 59:11Speaker 00

  And so I, the power of detachment is a true power. When you can see conversations happening and kind of step outside yourself, like you're watching them in a movie theater.

• 59:22Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 59:22Speaker 00

  Where you're just eating popcorn and seeing how the other person's reacting. You get to see yourself.

• 59:26Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. But it's not a detachment from cowardice.

• 59:29Speaker 00

  No, it's not a detachment from.

• 59:31Dr. John Delony?

  Strength, yeah.

• 59:31Speaker 00

  You got it. It's not a detachment from cowardice or from the conversation. It's a detachment of.

• 59:37Dr. John Delony?

  Reactivity.

• 59:37Speaker 00

  Needing to win.

• 59:38Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Okay, a couple more. How do you politely disagree? Oh, we already did that one. All right, a couple more.

• 59:46Dr. John Delony?

  Advice on respectfully shutting down rude or manipulative comments from elderly parents.

• 59:53Speaker 00

  Oh, from elderly, okay. So if anytime somebody's saying something that you need to shut down, you can't walk on, biggest thing is you cannot walk on eggshells and be like, oh, let's not say that, please. You know, if you're trying to, those kind of people will feed off of that. They'll try to lean to that anymore or even more. Instead, you need to stand exactly where you are. Instead of saying, beginning your words with you, like, you can't talk to me that way. It's, it's, I don't accept that tone. You can't yell at me, I don't respond to that volume.

• 1:00:29Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:29Speaker 00

  So whenever you can, instead of beginning it with you, begin with I, magical things can happen. And you can figure out how to do that with almost every single phrase. Instead of beginning with you, beginning with I, because you can't control what they're saying. You can't control their comment, but you can control yourself, beginning with I, and then you can quickly lay a boundary on that. I don't, I don't respond to those kind of comments.

• 1:00:54Dr. John Delony?

  That almost feels like a, again, like a, like a way to.

• 1:00:57Speaker 00

  It's a stiff arm.

• 1:00:58Dr. John Delony?

  I'm just taking a step back.

• 1:00:59Speaker 00

  It is a very polite stiff arm. In a, in a way of, you don't understand where you're going with this.

• 1:01:07Speaker 00

  I don't respond to those kind of comments. And if you keep saying them, this is the end of the conversation.

• 1:01:12Dr. John Delony?

  And I think respectfully shutting down rude or manipulative comments from parents

• 1:01:19Dr. John Delony?

  may come with consequences, may come with the, the holidays over, right? Or may come with, we're not gonna go out to dinner tonight, we're just gonna go eat back at the hotel.

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:01:28Dr. John Delony?

  And I think people wanna be able to, what's a magic way to say this so there's no consequence?

• 1:01:32Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:01:33Dr. John Delony?

  That doesn't exist, right?

• 1:01:34Speaker 00

  It doesn't exist, no, because you never know what they're.

• 1:01:36Dr. John Delony?

  I can't control what they're gonna do.

• 1:01:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, you, you never know what they're gonna say or what the comment is or it, what the context is. Maybe it's probably something related to when you were a child, that's triggering to you and they didn't have, maybe they didn't intend to it. I mean, when you can ask the question, did you intend to upset me with that? Did you mean for that to upset me? Like, when you can ask the question back, instead of a response, turn them into a question. So instead of like, oh, well, that hurt, that was rude. Did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you mean for that to hurt me? Did you mean for that to embarrass me?

• 1:02:07Dr. John Delony?

  It just sounds like someone shot you and it just bounced off.

• 1:02:09Speaker 00

  Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:11Dr. John Delony?

  It's so like, ah, it's just so dismissive in a, in a, in a powerful way.

• 1:02:15Speaker 00

  Oh, this, uh, I'm gonna say this real quick. This, I, on my way here, when I left San Diego, the, the way the airport's structured is, I just wasn't paying attention, but they have two separate wings to where I, I went all the way through security in one. I was like, where's my gate? And I keep walking and I walk out of that entire terminal and I have to go realize I ha, I have to go through security and another part of it. And I turned around and there was one of the TSA ladies. And I said, oh, my gosh, I think I went through that. I gotta go through this all again. And she said, well, you should have been looking at the signs. We had lots of signs. So, yeah, I guess I should have seen the signs. I just didn't, I didn't see them. She goes, no, it's your fault, sir.

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  It's your fault. Dead serious. This is what she said to me yesterday. And I just stopped and I said, did you feel better saying that? And all of a sudden she got ready. She goes, I'm sorry, sir. You're right. I'm, I'm sorry. I was frustrated. Yes, sir. Like, it was just a totally different. It's like that, uh, you can't let it, can't let it penetrate.

• 1:03:22Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. But there is something important sometimes to occasionally turn and just hold the mirror up and be like, is that what we're going for?

• 1:03:28Speaker 00

  That's what, you got it. And that's the whole point of asking those questions. You become the, the mirror.

• 1:03:33Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  And you can, you can, if it's really bad, you can ask them to repeat it.

• 1:03:37Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:37Speaker 00

  And then, then they have to have, be their own echo.

• 1:03:39Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:40Speaker 00

  But when you can say, did you, did you mean for that to be? And, but also it, I would say it also clarifies things.

• 1:03:46Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 1:03:47Speaker 00

  So like in a text message, like between me and my wife, if it's, did you mean for that to be short? That saves a lot of arguments.

• 1:03:54Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 1:03:54Speaker 00

  A lot of assumptions.

• 1:03:55Dr. John Delony?

  Yes. Or the, the old Brene Brown quote, the story I'm choosing to make up is,

• 1:03:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:00Dr. John Delony?

  you're mad.

• 1:04:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:01Dr. John Delony?

  No, I'm not mad. I'm running to the bathroom. I just needed to hit San Diego.

• 1:04:04Speaker 00

  Exactly. Or should I read into that?

• 1:04:06Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So before we go, I've got one thing here that I just vehemently disagree with. And, uh,

• 1:04:13Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, this is a glaring error.

• 1:04:14Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, the glaring error.

• 1:04:15Speaker 00

  Perfect, yes.

• 1:04:17Dr. John Delony?

  In the words of Jefferson Fisher, I see things differently here. Um, so you write this great book. You write on page four, if you're inclined to believe that I learned my communication skills in law school, don't. Law school teaches you how to apply the law, principles of contracts, but you won't hear a lesson on how to diffuse a heated argument. Law school teaches you how to read the law, not how to read people. I had to learn that part myself.

• 1:04:48Dr. John Delony?

  I see that differently. I think this is the part where you tell America and the world

• 1:04:56Dr. John Delony?

  that I taught you most of this stuff.

• 1:04:58Speaker 00

  Everything I know came from

• 1:04:59Dr. John Delony?

  I appreciate that.

• 1:05:00Speaker 00

  Dr. John Deloney.

• 1:05:01Dr. John Delony?

  I, gosh, I just needed that. I needed that.

• 1:05:04Speaker 00

  It was the feeling.

• 1:05:05Dr. John Delony?

  I got stuck on page four.

• 1:05:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:07Dr. John Delony?

  And

• 1:05:08Speaker 00

  You couldn't get past that.

• 1:05:09Dr. John Delony?

  I couldn't. Every page I would read, I would just flip back. I'd read 10 pages, flip back and be like, ah, I think I taught him everything in this book.

• 1:05:15Speaker 00

  For anybody listening, that's how we first met.

• 1:05:19Dr. John Delony?

  So for anybody listening, I don't know if I said this the last time you were on the show. You were one of those students that came in and all of our colleagues were like, hey, we gotta be real nice to this guy because we're probably be working for him someday. Like, pretty sure. Either you or your wife. Like, we're gonna be working for them, so we gotta be super cool. Dude, thank you for coming to hang out.

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  Thanks, man. Thanks for having me.

• 1:05:37Dr. John Delony?

  Nothing in the world makes me happier than your success here. It's awesome. And for the people that you help.

• 1:05:42Speaker 00

  Thanks, dude.

• 1:05:43Dr. John Delony?

  And on behalf of like, forget the, we've known each other for a long time and forget friendship and all that. I was just the dad of two little kids. You gave me a lot of language in this book that I can impart to them so that they will always feel like dad thinks I can. And so, thank you for believing in me by writing this book. Thank you for believing in millions of people who will read this book. And thank you for changing the cultural conversation about you can't to I think you can. It's a blessing, brother.

• 1:06:13Speaker 00

  That means the world to me, man.

• 1:06:14Dr. John Delony?

  Thanks, dude. Appreciate you.

• 1:06:15Speaker 00

  Later, dude.

• 1:06:17Dr. John Delony?

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• 1:07:01Dr. John Delony?

  a personalized plan, and then it's time for you to get to work. As you complete workouts, your trainer will keep tweaking them to help you get better. And I love the workouts and my wife loves them, and we both love how they adapt to our travel schedules. Trainwell takes away our excuses and makes working out easy, and they can do it for you, too. If you're ready to start taking control of your physical health, take the quiz to find your perfect trainer at trainwell.net/daloni today. And right now, they still have a special offer just for my audience. $69 a month when you lock in your plan. That's almost 50% off their regular monthly rate, plus 14 days of free training. Go to trainwell.net/daloni.

• 1:07:44Dr. John Delony?

  That's trainwell.net/daloni.

• 1:07:49Dr. John Delony?

  All right, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with my great friend, Jefferson Fisher. And I think it's important to note that he did admit in front of all of you all that he learned everything from me when I was the administrator for one year during his grad school experience. He was kind of a floundering student, didn't really know where he wanted to go, or what direction he was going to have. And then he met me, and then he learned everything he knows. And so now he's pretty famous. And so I'm glad that he finally admitted all that on the, not really. I think I said this in the interview. He was one of those students that all of us on the faculty, or all of us that were administrators, we all were like,

• 1:08:31Dr. John Delony?

  yeah, we should be nice to him because we're all going to work for him someday. Yeah, it's amazing conversation. We're going to link to everything with the book. Please go pick this book up. It truly is exceptional. It's The Atomic Habits for Communication. And it breaks it down. It makes it very simple to understand. It gives you a lot of clear, actionable steps on how to make your life better. Literally, how to make your life better. We'll also link to Jefferson's Instagram pages for the two or three of you who aren't already following him. And all the other good stuff we talked about, we'll link in the show notes. Listen, take control of your next conversation. Be clear, be concise.

• 1:09:14Dr. John Delony?

  Use conversation as a tool to connect with people, not as a way to try to win something. And man, you will talk, you'll just, your life will get more peaceful. Thank y'all so much for being with us. Love you guys. See y'all soon. Bye.