Re-Air: Raven-Symoné & Miranda Pearman-Maday. Feel Better In Your Skin

In honor of Pride Month AND PTSD Awareness Month, we’re revisiting an awesome episode from 2022 with Raven-Symoné & her wife Miranda Pearman-Maday (content creator, producer, writer, doula)! They joined us to discuss defense mechanisms, their individual therapy journeys, and the confining nature of labels when it comes to sexuality and gender. They explain how their sexualities protected their true identities and their struggles with depression. Raven opens up about her past relationships with people with narcissistic tendencies, her parents’ reservations about therapy, and her PTSD and anger challenges. She and Mayim bond over their strikingly similar coping mechanisms from having grown up as child actors, their abilities to read others, and how celebrity can heighten people-pleasing tendencies. Miranda reveals how somatic therapy has helped her, and Raven shares her positive experiences with shadow and energy work. Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.

• 0:05Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 0:06Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to our Breakdown. Today, in honor of both Pride Month and PTSD Awareness Month, we're going to revisit an awesome episode that we did with Raven Simone and Miranda Perman-Maday. You, of course, know Raven from, if you're my age, The Cosby Show, but also from Disney Channel's That's So Raven, Raven's Home, and also The View. And she joins us with her wife, Miranda, who's an incredible content creator, producer, writer, also a doula. Raven opens up about her trauma journey in a very vulnerable way that we actually hadn't heard her speak about elsewhere. She talks about the confining nature of labels when it comes to sexuality and gender, and how sexuality actually helped protect her

• 0:50Mayim Bialik?

  true identity.

• 0:52Jonathan Cohen?

  They also broke down their experience with somatic therapy, shadow and energy work, and Raven also discusses her past relationships with people with narcissistic tendencies. She and Mayim actually bond over their strikingly similar coping mechanisms that they developed growing up as child actors, and their ability to read others.

• 1:13Mayim Bialik?

  Plus, how can being a celebrity heighten your people-pleasing tendencies? We thought this was a perfect conversation to share with you, again, in honor of Pride Month and PTSD Awareness Month.

• 1:25Jonathan Cohen?

  For more content you cannot get anywhere else, check us out on Substack. And for ad-free versions of the show, Mayim Bialik's Breakdown on Substack.

• 1:35Mayim Bialik?

  Please enjoy our conversation with Raven Simone and Miranda. Break it down. It's really fun to get to talk to both of you, especially since Jonathan and I are people who work together, work together closely, and really, really have a lot of respect for the work that the two of you are doing together. And it's really just exciting to get to speak to both of you. So, welcome.

• 1:57Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you for having us.

• 2:00Mayim Bialik?

  You are in LA, but Raven, you were born in Atlanta. And Miranda, you're from LA, is that right?

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Yes, like you, born and raised.

• 2:08Mayim Bialik?

  I was actually born in San Diego, but raised here. But it is rare to meet people who are actually from LA. And...

• 2:18Mayim Bialik?

  There's, there's work that you do together that I do want to talk about, but I do also want to ask Raven just like a couple of questions to kind of orient people. So first of all, you, you look amazing, like you look like you have not aged. I mean, obviously many of us, you, you came into many of our consciousness when you were a wee one. And you actually had started modeling at 16 months, like you were a, I don't know if it was like a toddler model? Is that a thing?

• 2:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, diapers where I was killing the game. I was dripping in diapers.

• 2:51Mayim Bialik?

  I would imagine you don't have any specific memory of that.

• 2:54Speaker 02

  I don't remember yesterday.

• 2:55Mayim Bialik?

  Right, same. One of the things that I wanted to sort of ask you about is, you know, you, you are a person who really grew up, literally, you know, kind of with that consciousness of other, you know, observing. What do you sort of like, even reflecting back, like when you think about, you know, that 16 month old? What do you sort of, you know, imagine that sort of trajectory was like and sort of how that impacted you? I know it's kind of a big question to start off with.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's my whole life. I don't really have anything to compare it to. So impacting is, I mean, I could answer that question as easily as saying this is all I've ever known. So any of my actions or behaviors stem from that, good, bad and ugly. I think that growing up in the industry from the age of 16 months to 36 years old, leaves an interesting trail of breadcrumbs that can be used in a positive light for others, can help others, can inform others. And when it comes to me personally, I'm dealing with that through my therapist. Thank you very much.

• 4:04Mayim Bialik?

  You were cast in The Cosby Show when you were three years old. And here's a strange little fun connection. I was on a show called Blossom when I was 14 to 19. We premiered after The Cosby Show in 1990, I guess it was. So Cosby was still on, must have been, I mean, it was a kind of funny overlap and I never got to interact with, with you. With any of the cast members, it didn't kind of work like that in those days. But that's just kind of a special connection that I had with that era of television. You were a very, very cute child, and that was a lot of that kind of appeal.

• 4:43Mayim Bialik?

  You brought life to an aspect of a show that was so beloved and so long running as well. But you stayed in this television world and you have thrived. I mean, you are still actively working. Has there been a time in your life when you were not working?

• 5:04Speaker 02

  I'll answer that question, but first I want to say thank you to you and the work that you did during that time. No, we did not interact, but a female heading a sitcom was in the cards for me to pay attention to and study because that was very rare.

• 5:22Mayim Bialik?

  Very rare.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  And you were young and I studied that entire show from top to bottom, just so you know.

• 5:30Speaker 03

  And I did too, not for my acting career, but just because I fuck, can I curse? Because I just fucking loved Blossom. I was like, yes.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  Yes, I definitely, a lot of my outfits on The Cosby Show were inspired by you.

• 5:42Speaker 03

  The hats, it was classic 80s.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  The floral.

• 5:45Speaker 03

  Early 90s real.

• 5:46Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, and Felicia Rashad was actually, she was in our first episode. The character of Blossom had a mother who left the family to pursue her own interests, which again, in 1989, when that script was written by Don Rio, people were like, a woman who wants to live her own life and leaves her children? What kind of beast is that? And we built this show around a girl who had essentially no mom raising her. And Blossom's fantasy mom was the mom from The Cosby Show. And so actually, Felicia Rashad decorates an entire cake of fallopian tubes and ovaries in our very first episode, because Blossom gets her period. And it is Mrs. Cosby who explains it all. But yeah, tell me about sort of the time in your life when maybe you weren't working,

• 6:30Mayim Bialik?

  because you have a very prolific career.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  So like you said, I'm sixteen months old. I did the Cosby Show. I was modeling. I did a couple commercials. Three years old, I started on the Cosby Show. I ended that at six. Between six and seven, I had my first album and went on tour. Seven to eleven, I was on Hang with Mr. Cooper for four years. That aired during TGI Fridays. And every weekend, I would go on tour with that as well. After that, I did Dr. Dolittle, and I kept working, kept working, started on my Disney career albums and movies. And then 2011, I did a six-month stint on Broadway. During that time,

• 7:09Speaker 02

  I had a little bit of a mental realization that from 1980 something till 2011, I had not taken a break that last, like, I could count up the days, and it probably equaled like a year and a half of doing nothing. I've always been doing something. And so I took it upon myself to say bye industry. And I went to school. I had about a three-year break. And then, um, Whoopi Goldberg and everyone at The View kind of asked me to come on and pulled me back in. And here I am again. So I had like a three-year stint, uh, 2011, 12,

• 7:50Speaker 02

  13, where I was able to decompress and kind of look at life. But it wasn't long enough. And I continue to find ways to kind of separate myself from the industry. So at some point in my lifetime, I can say, you know, longer than three years of relaxation.

• 8:10Mayim Bialik?

  While we had very, you know, kind of different experiences up until college age, you know, I literally walked off of a television set and onto a college campus. And, you know, I, yeah, I did Blossom. I was two years out of high school when Blossom ended. And, um, you know, I was like, really ready to have a different experience, you know, as I'm sure you can relate to, and then some. I know it's like a weird question, like, what was that like? Because like, for me, it was weird. It almost took three years to kind of like even feel whatever normal's supposed to feel like. I don't even know. And everybody's like, nobody's normal. Okay, but some of us are less normal than others when we've like, been on your TV

• 8:50Mayim Bialik?

  set, you know. So do you remember? Or like, do you have any sort of notion of that adjustment? Or, you know, where it fits into kind of your life now?

• 8:59Speaker 02

  I like to tell the story that my mom was, um, never watched any of my shows. Didn't really like my character on the original That's a Raven. She thought I was acting crazy and ridiculous. And she wasn't truly proud of me until I went to college and I got my AA. So the journey was I, I actually did college online for the three years and I only went to the campus during summer school. Um, it wasn't because I was afraid because I had gone to public school from elementary to high school during hiatus weeks. Um, so I knew what it was like to be integrated into normal population, you would say.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  However, I did not take the leap to go to college campus because I was tired of being around people every day and I just wanted to be by myself. And do the work and like, you know, drink and not wake up until four o'clock in the afternoon. Like I was having all of those teenage moments that people did in public by myself during those three years. And, um, when I went to school, of, well, I went to the Academy of Art University based in San Francisco. And I remember taking a fine arts class and a printmaking class.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  I thrived in printmaking class, but I felt the judgment of the kids during my fine arts class. Because, oh, she's famous. She thinks she can draw too. Because there's so many people in our industry who take full advantage of their celebrity name and claim themselves across so many boards. When, you know, they draw a stick figure and it sells for seven million dollars. I'm like, I have a degree and I'm going to do this the way it's supposed to be done. And my teacher was like, why are you here? Like, because I'm trying to grow another aspect of me. I can't act for the rest of my life. I have to have something to fall back on. So it was a very enlightening experience. I walked to school every day in the dirty streets of San Francisco. Nobody knew who I was. I, you know, kept it real low key.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  It was a great experience and I want to do it again. Actually, they just called me asking me, tell me if I got a refund from a couple of years ago. And I'm like,

• 11:10Mayim Bialik?

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• 11:54Mayim Bialik?

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• 12:39Mayim Bialik?

  It's the best way to support our show.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  At School Refrain, thank you.

• 12:42Mayim Bialik?

  There's so much that I relate to about you and your story that is very particular, but there's also this kind of universal notion of like people's expectations of us and you know, what they think we're capable of and also what people want to be true because it serves their own kind of narrative. I am curious about the recognizing thing because you know, I have found that that unadorned women, you know, the unadorned feminist is sort of the academic term. That's the best way for me not to get recognized is what I've noticed. And having more of a mellow and laid back presence actually is something that's very comfortable for me, but it also has fed into a lot of like the way that I dress, like my

• 13:26Mayim Bialik?

  slouchy posture, like trying to disappear and like weight is a protective element. Can you speak a little bit about sort of like the disappearing that you have gotten to do?

• 13:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. I got lucky in my career because the brand that was sold at such a young age was this uber feminine, hair straight and eyebrows on fleek type world. And so when I would go out, the true me is more masculine presenting in a way and no makeup and trust me, I'm a flashy. Like I, I wear flashy stuff. I got a flashy car. I'm all of that, but it's not in the uber feminine sense. So when I was at the height of that so raven, I got away with a lot more than people actually knew because I'd be out in these streets, like in the same restaurant as all of the tween stars that were getting pictured, but they didn't know it was me because my friends call me by one

• 14:22Speaker 02

  of my many other names and I live in a different world. I understand what you're saying about the anonymity of it all because it's something I'll never have for the entirety of my entire life and neither will you, no matter how much we slouch and hide and gain weight because everybody will judge it. But yes, there are tricks of the trade. And I think, you know, one thing that Miranda and I have actually been talking about over the course of the days is

• 14:54Speaker 02

  there is something different about the celebrity that has grown up in the industry. There's just something different and we don't talk about it enough because it's such a niche, it's such a community. It's a different lens we look through. It's a different world we live in, in our minds. And yes, we, we conform to social normities and things of that nature, but at the end of the day, we have been filmed and recorded for the pleasure and entertainment of so many people. We know how to shape shift. We know how to manipulate situations. We can read the room in a different way. You know, the thing Miranda says is like, you can't assume that I'm angry.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  I'm like, literally, I've had 200 scripts that show me 2,000 ways of anger by every single writer out there. If I don't know how to read anger, I didn't do any of my job right. And then she's like, but I'm not. I'm like, dang, I missed one moment. But like, it is true. There are some things that we have to learn as child actors and actors, but ones that have been in the industry since. You know, since time, not the two, early 2000s, but like even farther back, where it's just a little bit different and it's hard to put into words where we don't sound disrespectful. It's, it's hard. Could you, you know what I'm talking about?

• 16:16Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I think also you've handled this with a lot of grace and that's something I've really admired about you really for, for all of your adult life, especially when it sort of became something that people were, you know, asking you to speak to is this notion of like, nobody wants to hear like, oh, poor little rich girl, you know, and because, and then, and I don't, and I don't hear that in you and I don't hear it in myself, but I think other people sometimes do. It's like, you made all this money. What do you expect? Like, your life is so easy. Like, everything's amazing. And, you know, you get to like, wear all these pretty clothes and like, what do you have to complain about? And one of the reasons that Jonathan and I started this podcast is because like, guess what? Mental health doesn't care how much money you have

• 16:57Mayim Bialik?

  and doesn't care anything about you because we're all kind of equal opportunity humans on this planet. So, but I definitely, I do relate also to that notion of like, oh, she thinks she's so hot because, and all I wanted to do was just not be special.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  I used to get so excited when I was in chorus class and I would get chosen in the, you know, the alto section for a, a solo Monday through Friday and then literally on tour with NSYNC on that weekend and not caring because that's just my job and it's whatever. But I was more excited to wear that ugly, you know, chorus outfit, black pants that didn't fit because I had too many of the pizza snacks at school. And I was like, I'm in chorus. And my dad is like, you just made a shit ton of money over at NSYNC. Like, what's wrong with you?

• 17:50Mayim Bialik?

  When I was 16, I was on Blossom. Every Saturday, I would volunteer at the Holly It was on Fountain and Cole. It was the Hollywood Senior Citizen Center.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:01Mayim Bialik?

  And I would put on my little like hairnet and my plastic apron and my gloves. There was not a happier human than me serving up a chicken breast and thigh and green beans to a bunch of people in their 80s and 90s who had no idea who I was. Like, because they, they were, they treated me like a, a real person, which meant sometimes they were mean to me. If they were in a bad mood, I heard it. Sometimes they were nice to me. I didn't have that notion of like, are they just being nice to me? Because, like, it was, and that's what I did. I served up the chicken so happily.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  I love it. I love it. And I totally understand it. And I think sometimes the people in this generation are missing that because they've been brainwashed to believe that it's so awesome to just be famous.

• 18:48Mayim Bialik?

  Totally.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  They've been brainwashed. Like, no, I'm gonna have that. I'm like, you don't, you just got here, bro. You just got here. I need you to take like 10 years and then you'll be... I told Miranda this the other day. I said, I had an idea with a friend of mine that I would go ride public buses and see who would recognize me and who wouldn't and like actually live that life. That's why I love going to other countries.

• 19:11Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Because I can, oh my God, I remember when I was 18, I went to London and it was for a, just a fun vacation. And I went with a friend of mine and I woke up early at like 6:00 AM and I got on the train, on the tube. And then I got on the city bus and I went to Stonehenge by myself. I was 18. I had already done concerts where I needed a military bodyguard and people out, five hours signing autographs at Walmart and things like that. But I was on the tube in London.

• 19:43Mayim Bialik?

  Going to Stonehenge.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  Going to Stonehenge, like the happiest human in the world. And it's, it's an interesting want because everyone else wants what we have naturally. And it's like, it's, it's not always greener. And trust me, do I want it every day? No, I really do love my Tesla. But at the same time, you know, going back and forth doesn't hurt.

• 20:05Mayim Bialik?

  Right. I do want to ask one more thing that you mentioned about sort of, you know, having a more masculine presence or getting to be yourself, whatever that, you know, kind of looks or feels like. Did you have a notion of kind of like gender identity, sexuality at that time? Or was it more just like, this is what feels like me?

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Oh, no, I knew what I knew what was up, but I knew that the mask was necessary because there was a brand being built and I was told my whole life that nobody's gonna buy that being called a dyke on in concert by my own team because I wanted to wear a tie and a vest and doing all that and hiding it. And one of my boyfriends being like, when you when you're at work, you're such a girl. When you come home, you're such a dude. I was like, I can't help it. This is just how I am. But Miranda actually has been the only um, person in my life who has made me feel super comfortable to be me on a morning, noon and night basis. Uh, and I'm learning, as we all know, slow programming, programming

• 21:09Speaker 02

  takes a while to deprogram, but I'm learning how to do that more and more when the camera is on. And that's hard to do because my parents used to call it razzle dazzle. It's like, I don't care if you're sick, tired, or under the weather. As soon as they say action, nobody cares about your feelings. You better perform. So she's helping me kind of feel better in my skin.

• 21:30Mayim Bialik?

  I love that. And I I do want to, um, you know, kind of welcome Miranda more to this conversation because you you had knowledge of the industry and you have had a lot of different, you know, kind of identities in the industry and you've done a lot of really neat stuff even before the two of you met. But how did you meet and connect?

• 21:49Speaker 03

  We met. Well, we like to joke that we were on the Warner Brothers lot at the same time because my father worked at Warner Brothers for almost as long as I've known him. But he was, I was three years old and my dad started working at Warner Brothers and Raven was doing Hanging with Mr. Cooper. So we joke that we were both there. I was, I learned to drive on the back lot. I mean, that was like where I grew up to a certain extent, but she did too. So like, we totally passed each other then if it was at the commissary or a soundstage, whatever. In actuality, we met at a karaoke night at a bar in West

• 22:27Speaker 03

  Hollywood. Raven was a host of this event. And I was there with some friends and she was there with some friends and we started talking and I kind of. Felt a vibe very quickly. I felt very comfortable with her, which is huge for me. Right? So feeling safe with somebody is not my norm and I have a lot of anxiety and I really felt this level of calm. That was a big ping to me. And then we just kind of had this natural conversation and as quickly as it started, it ended because she was like, okay, I have to go. I've had my two drinks. I've done my job, my job. And now people are starting to kind of like

• 23:09Speaker 03

  crowd me. And I was like, wait, wait, wait, I'm just getting warmed up. And that was it. But we obviously exchanged numbers and

• 23:16Speaker 02

  And I could tell that she didn't know who I was, which was the best part.

• 23:20Mayim Bialik?

  With all due respect, like what rock were you living under that you didn't know?

• 23:23Speaker 03

  I was just going to say, excuse me very much. I don't live under a rock. Cause that was literally gonna be my response. I, I actually did know who she was, but it wasn't interesting to me.

• 23:36Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 23:37Speaker 03

  And I also wasn't a fan. I think that's the biggest thing. I, I, I knew who Raven was and I knew of that. So Raven, but I had never seen the show. I had never watched Miss Hangin' with Mr. Cooper. I've never seen to this day, an episode of Cosby. But then I also like to say, I was born in 1987 and it's like the things that I was watching, I was a little young.

• 23:58Mayim Bialik?

  Totally.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  You know, I, that was like, I was watching Barney and stuff.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  And your family comes from a theater background. So I'm sure that what was on television wasn't necessarily like that kind of show. What was, what were your parents watching? Do you know?

• 24:14Speaker 03

  I mean, I know as a young kid, we watched, my mom loved Sesame Street and Barney and I watched those shows consistently. And then I was telling Raven this actually, because the other day she was like, how have you not seen a single episode of Cosby? And I was like, listen, I used to get the stomach flu a lot and I used to have nightmares a lot. And my mom would take care of me and whatever that was, like after I'd peed the bed or thrown up, she would put me in front of the TV in her room and I would watch late night television, but it was like Nick at Night or I was watching Dream of, I Dream of Genie and I was watching The Munsters and I was watching Bewitched and

• 24:53Speaker 02

  As was I.

• 24:54Speaker 03

  That was kind of that. And then it became Sabrina, the teenage witch and Full House and Family Matters. Those were like my real. Go to shows.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  Step by step.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  Step by step. Fuck, yeah.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  Did you ever watch any Mr. Cooper?

• 25:11Speaker 03

  No, I never, I haven't.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Cause literally came on the same night as all of those other ones.

• 25:17Speaker 03

  Literally, she's naming.

• 25:20Mayim Bialik?

  Literally, that's like the rundown of like everything.

• 25:22Speaker 03

  I know. And this is what she, this is how she shamed me with That's So Raven 2. Cause I was like, I watched Lizzie McGuire. I watched even, and she's like, the show that came before or the, in the middle or, I was like, I don't know. But anyhow, I didn't know who she was. I wasn't a fan, but I am now.

• 25:39Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, I love you too, babe.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  I am. I think my wife is extremely talented and very cool. And That's So Raven slash Raven's Home. I mean, That's So Raven really is fantastic. It's, it's awesome.

• 25:53Mayim Bialik?

  Um, and can I ask, and you are.

• 25:55Speaker 03

  I'm serious.

• 25:56Mayim Bialik?

  You're completely welcome. First of all, you two are adorable. You are completely welcome to not answer this. You know, I, I ask it because,

• 26:07Mayim Bialik?

  it's the kind of thing that might be helpful for people listening to hear. Had you been in a relationship, either of you, with a female person before? Or was this a first for either or both of you?

• 26:18Speaker 03

  I had been in, well, yes, yes. I had dated, oh gosh, I think, maybe two? Or three?

• 26:31Speaker 02

  And let me count them real quick.

• 26:32Speaker 03

  I don't know, before you? But I will tell you this. So in high school, I was a very like awkward, late bloomer type of person. I didn't have my first high school boyfriend until my senior year. And he was my first everything. And then I ended up dating a few other people after that. And then I met a girl. But Raven was the first person that I remember having this moment. We were actually in New York. She was on The View at the time. And I remember walking down the street with her and we were just like shooting the shit, whatever. She had just finished a day of work. And I had this real like, I don't even know what to call it, aha moment where I was like, wow, I.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  Might forever be in a lesbian relationship and have to really understand like what that might mean for myself because this is my person. This is my person. And I just really knew that. And it felt really okay. But yeah, she wasn't my first girl, but she's my last.

• 27:43Mayim Bialik?

  Just the Hallmark cards are just being written as we speak. And what about you, Raven?

• 27:47Speaker 02

  That one on you. So good. I'm a little bit of a hoe. No, listen, I was.

• 27:54Speaker 03

  She's like 20. I'm number 31.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 28:01Speaker 03

  Raven likes to do this. This is the classic Raven move with us. Well, she'll be telling a story and then she'll go, and then I was with my partner at the time. Sorry, babe. I love you so much. Like she feels like she has to apologize for the fact that she dated people before me, which I.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  You don't want me to stop doing that?

• 28:17Speaker 03

  I do.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Okay, done. Done. Great.

• 28:19Speaker 03

  Okay, look at that. We just had a therapeutic moment together right here.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  So you can't be mad at me when I say.

• 28:25Speaker 03

  We just prevented a breakdown. Thank you.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  Oh, patoom toom. Okay, so my first kiss was a girl. Then I started dating guys, but less than after girls. And then my longest heterosexual relationship, we thought we were going to get married, but my conversation to him was always, so I'm gonna have a girlfriend when we get married, right? Because I can't just be with you for the rest of my life. And then we broke up. Thank God. Dated a couple more guys and then also dated a couple of girls. And then there was a moment, which I'm not going to get into too much, but let's just say I threw up and my body was not happy with what I was putting it through.

• 29:07Speaker 02

  And I was like, no more guys. Bye. And then I just stopped. And.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  Honored myself a little bit more.

• 29:15Speaker 03

  You were just like, super gay. That's all it is, babes.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  You were just-

• 29:19Speaker 03

  Is that an official title within the LGBT community? Yes, exactly. It's an official. You just knew.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 29:25Speaker 03

  You knew from such a young age, too, which I think is part, we were a little bit different there as well.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 29:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  Like, I did notice, young age, and my friends would say, "You're such a dude." And I'd be like, "No, calm down. I just really like Jay-Z and like, wanna be him when I grow up." But like, "Don't worry about it." And then I would be, yeah, I did know it very young age.

• 29:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:44Mayim Bialik?

  It is also possible, just again, speaking to sort of like, the larger human experience, it is also possible to, like Jay-Z, wanna be him when you grow up, and also not be gay. I have a 13 and a 16-year-old, and Jonathan has a 14-year-old. So, there's also like, this culture that, you know, this generation is growing up in, where like, everything really, I don't mean to say like, anything goes, but the notion of like, uncoupling even our expectations about gender. You know, we are really like, deconstructing gender and sexuality. I think on a, like, you know, at least for me as a mom, like, on a day-to-day basis of like, "You can be like this and still be this." Or, "You may feel like this or like that."

• 30:28Mayim Bialik?

  But, you know, part of it is like, the labels can be so confining, and in many cases, not helpful, you know? And I would say the same thing about even like, spectrum disorders. Like, the terms help until they don't. And I think that's true of kind of like, you know, the terms gay and lesbian, and also like, feminine and masculine.

• 30:49Speaker 03

  I totally agree, and that's something that I have kind of intuitively always known. Meaning, so many people would ask me in my life, "Oh, okay, so you're gay now?" And I'm like, "I, I, I don't really know how to answer that." Because it never felt- Necessary for me and I don't want to be dismissive to the work and the struggle that so many people have had to do within our community to stand proudly in their ability to say, I am gay and I have these rights and I love this person because it is, it's a true, it's been a true struggle and still is to this day. But for me as an individual,

• 31:33Speaker 03

  I never, even tomboy, right? So growing up, like I enjoyed wearing a bigger fitting shirt and I still kind of do and you know, not a lot of makeup, but then there were days when I wanted to be super feminine and I always played with Barbie dolls and I always had this really kind of imaginative world and liked having ribbons in my hair and I had blonde curly hair. So I, you know, kind of felt like Goldilocks from Goldilocks and the Three Bears was my girl. And so it's like I had these differences within myself, but my parents never tried to confine it or define it. And I think when I continued

• 32:13Speaker 03

  into my life and my adulthood, I just never have felt inclined to label myself in any way. And I don't know, I, I see both sides of it and how it is very important for some, but for me, straight out saying, and Raven will joke with me and she's like, you haven't even come out. You're not even out. And I'm like, dude, I don't know what else. I mean, but I, but I'm more married. I'm out, but you know.

• 32:37Speaker 02

  But I grew up in a different type of community, right?

• 32:39Speaker 03

  Right.

• 32:39Speaker 02

  So like our gender expression is totally different than your gen, than your sexual orientation. So let's separate the two immediately. And I think that goes to my sentence of, you know, you're tomboy. I want to be like Jay-Z or whatever, whatever.

• 32:52Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah. Can you explain that? Because I think some people still don't get it.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  Gender, gender expression is the masculine, the femininity, the, you know, no gender expression whatsoever, the skirt with the. You know, blazer on top, the, the makeup with a full, like, it's just how you express yourself on the outside. But sexual orientation is who you wanna be in love with and have a sexual relationship with. That's totally different. But in my community, there are still, um, the importance of labels, you know, stud, femme, masculine, mask, uh, dyke, twink, like, there are so many derogatory words, but we've, you know, grabbed for our own.

• 33:41Speaker 02

  And I think that in some communities, we're starting to break down those stereotypes and those labels. But, you know, that was one of the things that I said a few years ago that, you know, ran rampant on the internet. Raven doesn't want to be labeled. She doesn't want to be labeled.

• 33:56Mayim Bialik?

  You were ahead of your time, though. People didn't get it.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  And I didn't explain it very well. I'll definitely say that. I've learned how to talk better now that I'm married to Miranda. But I, that's what I meant because I liked girls and I liked guys at the time and I dressed like a boy and I dressed like a girl. And I had this thought and that thought, and I didn't have a label for myself. I got married and I was like, yeah, I'm in a lesbian relationship. And somebody was like, oh, you're labeling yourself now? I said, yeah, for you, because you can't think outside the box. I'm cool with it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm over here expressing myself in all kinds of ways. Um, but again, it's really important to separate sexual identity and gender expression because they are not the same and they don't really need to live in the same box. You know what I mean? Sexual, sexual orientation is totally different.

• 34:45Mayim Bialik?

  And when you say your community, can you be a little more explicit?

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Before I answer that, I want to say I am not, um, I do not want to be a spokesperson for all of the black community. I don't consider myself that. I consider myself a part of the community, but I'm a part of a lot of different communities. My experience has been my experience, meaning I am on television since I was three. I'm a female. I'm a black female. I'm light-skinned and I'm married to a white woman. So my experience in the black community is everywhere and everyone's experience would be different. That being said, there's my disclaimer. I think that there is, um, a historic understanding within the black community that one...

• 35:37Speaker 02

  Interracial relationships are scary, dangerous, not the best, blah, blah, blah, blah. But that's being broken down nowadays, which is beautiful. Also, within the lesbian community, it's like, are you, where are you in your relationship? Are you the masculine one? Are you the feminine one? Are you happy and two studs can't be together? Femmes can always be together. And it's just like, that's what it is because of our understanding of the heterosexual relationship and how we have to function in society. It's just the unconscious programming that we give ourselves. But I will say, I don't think that's just the black community. I think that that lives in a lot of communities.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  I know there's one that I can't speak as an expert on, but they do not, and I'm also going to name what it is, but I know this to be true. They do not agree with being gay, but if the male has a sex change, they will be accepted as a female. You've heard of that? So it's like, all right, the standards and practices of certain communities are necessary for the cisgendered religious-based people to feel comfortable. That's all we're doing. We're just trying to make other people feel comfortable, but not this generation. This generation don't give a about anybody, so I love it.

• 36:58Mayim Bialik?

  I wanted to thank you also, both of you, for being so candid about this. I hate to make you feel like you're under a microscope or like you speak for all, any type of human being. But I think that there's so much fear around talking about it, and I think it's really helpful to hear people's experience, even when it's not neat, you know? And I think that's also what it is. Like, people want it really, they want it to be neat. They just want to be like, who do you have sex with and what genitalia goes with it? And I hope they match, because that's what makes me feel the best, right? Like, that's, you know, anyway.

• 37:31Jonathan Cohen?

  Like, we try and put so many labels on it, but then that separates us from the inner-knowing, Raven, that you were speaking about. Like, you were being guided by a somatic understanding of what you wanted. And I don't want to call it a higher power, but like, it sounds like there was an intuition there. And sometimes being in the mind and trying to label it, what am I and putting it into a box or a category separates us from being able to follow what we instinctively know. So it sounds like, you know, those two things have to, you can't do both at the same time. Sometimes you just have to either intellectualize it and understand it and then go from there. Or more often, it's like, oh, wait a second, we have a feeling. And by making space for that and trying to not label it and just feel it and see where that guides us, it makes it clearer.

• 38:17Speaker 02

  I, I want to agree with that. I feel like, you know, a lot of people are always say, you turned out so well. How come you didn't end up like all these other people? And, and when I say other people, I mean other child stars whose trajectory was not as positive. And for the longest time, I was like, um, I don't know. But as I grew up and I came out, I think my gay self really stayed in a box and protected the true me. So then when it was time for me to live, um, it was protected because like you said, my higher self, I do call it, I call it my higher self, was protecting me, knowing what I was needing

• 39:01Speaker 02

  as I got older, if I survived. Um, I say it saved me. Um, I'm going through shadow work now that is, you know, super difficult, but it's, it's a lot easier to go through because I know that my brain split, like I knew what I had to be in order to survive the world that I was living in. And I know who I am in order to be my best self and authentic self now. So I agree with you.

• 39:27Speaker 03

  And that's something that we talk about a lot, actually, because Raven and I love kind of self analyzing and therapy and having deep conversations. And I've had a slew of mental health. I don't even know the word issues, problems, challenges. That's much nicer sounding, but really kind of being able, and despite the fact that we have different experiences, right? She grew up on a set. I didn't, blah, blah, blah.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  We're both riddled with depression.

• 39:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, but we both have very similar results from life experiences and these defense mechanisms. You know, I think that listening to what you just said, Raven, it's like my gay self was protective or I was protective of that inner self. And that was really valuable for a long amount of time. But then there became a point in time where it no longer served and you had to come out and do the next level. And for me, I've had so much of that where I'm like, wow, this defense mechanism, thank you. You were keeping me safe. You were helping me cope with the circumstance of my life at that time. You know, for me, around the age of seven years old, my parents split up.

• 40:39Speaker 03

  A lot more fear, anxiety, worry came into my, my ether and food became my comfort and my best friend. But then there became a point where I was like, okay, yo, you're 16 years old. You cannot be housing pizzas on a Friday night.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  Without me.

• 40:57Speaker 03

  Without Raven, because you need one other person to help you eat two pizzas. That's just the reality, but that, that, that comfort that I was seeking was no longer okay in that space. And it was now was, you know, I flipped it and it was becoming destructive. So I think everyone has those to an extent and it doesn't matter. Kind of my, what you were saying too, it's like just the humanness that we all share in common. We will all find these similar themes in our lives in one way or another, regardless of being famous or not, or being poor, rich, or whatever. It doesn't, it doesn't, these things don't care.

• 41:36Jonathan Cohen?

  There's such a universality to it. Replace gayness with anything that you need to change a defense mechanism that had previously protected us. And now we have to move on. And if we stay trapped in, not even trapped, if we stay stagnant, if we're not moving towards becoming something else and, and finding more about ourselves, then we're stuck.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  And there's people that you can come into contact with that help you unlock, that unstuck it, that help you unlock it. I mean, I, before I met Miranda, I truly, truly went about my dating career. Each person taught me something about myself that I did or did not like. And as soon as I broke up with that person, I

• 42:18Speaker 02

  I implemented the changes that I wanted for myself, right? And I was like, okay, if we're supposed to be together, then we'll still be together. If not, these are the things I'm changing. Break up with them, change what I need to. And then that type of human never came back in my life. But there was one uh toxic trait that I was not aware of in the humans that I was picking.

• 42:42Speaker 03

  What was it?

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Narcissistic behavior that I was picking um because I didn't understand that part about me. Right? So then I meet Miranda and now I cry every night, not from her, but.

• 42:56Speaker 03

  But also, wait, pause, because you said that you had people come into your life. You'd break up and they never came back, but I came back.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  Well, that's what I'm, you did come back because if she says that I never said this and it's possible because I I have a memory issue. But I remember distinctly breaking up with you and saying, if you're supposed to be in my. I did say that, didn't I? I know I did.

• 43:21Speaker 03

  It was actually, I remember that breakup like yesterday, okay?

• 43:24Speaker 02

  Okay, I said that, though.

• 43:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, she gave me a hug.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  No, me, cuz she just, this is on recording, right? This is the thing.

• 43:32Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, I'm watching the whole thing. Best show on television. What's happening right here?

• 43:37Speaker 03

  So start, you have to start with a hug.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  No, I don't, I don't remember it. All I remember was saying this. You, go ahead and you tell the story.

• 43:43Speaker 03

  No, I'll just tell this part. She, she breaks up with me. We stand up. I'm getting ready to leave and she gives me this huge hug and she holds me and I'm like, what's happening? Then she pushes me back. She has both her hands on my shoulders and she looks me in the eye and she says, you deserve someone who wants to hug you like that every day.

• 44:00Speaker 02

  And that's not what I'm talking about.

• 44:02Speaker 03

  I know. And then you said, and I was like, oh, my God, that's terrible.

• 44:07Speaker 02

  Then I said, if we're supposed to be together and back in each other's lives, we will be. You have to let something you love go. And if you, if it's supposed to be there, it'll come back. And I, and I truly believe it.

• 44:20Speaker 03

  And then she went and made tacos and I left and walked the streets of New York City crying hysterically.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  And tacos were good.

• 44:27Speaker 03

  Like a mess of a human. And I ended up, I mean, if you want the real story.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  No, nobody wants the real story. So here's what happened. She came back and we're both back.

• 44:38Speaker 03

  The real story, trust me.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  I don't want to hear it.

• 44:40Speaker 03

  We met in LA at the karaoke night mentioned earlier. Raven and I saw each other two more times in LA. And then she was like, hey, so I'm moving to New York in about a week because I'm going to be hosting The View. And she.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  You want to tell them about the sick ass party I threw?

• 44:57Speaker 03

  It wasn't that sick. Anyhow, she then says, if I buy you a ticket, if I buy you a ticket, will you come? And I was like, no, I'm not coming.

• 45:05Mayim Bialik?

  Red flag. She's trying to buy you a ticket. You just met her. That's a red flag.

• 45:10Jonathan Cohen?

  Never go to a secondary location.

• 45:12Mayim Bialik?

  Don't go to a secondary location.

• 45:14Speaker 03

  I know you guys, you're, you're right. I should have said, I should have stuck to my guns, but I said no. And at this point, she had packed up her house in LA.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  With a sick ass party that everyone still talks about to today.

• 45:26Speaker 03

  It wasn't that sick. And she was staying at my place. So the last four days that she was staying in Los Angeles, and this is the second week of my knowing her, she was, she lived with me. So she.

• 45:37Jonathan Cohen?

  Also red flag.

• 45:38Mayim Bialik?

  That's a lesbian thing.

• 45:39Speaker 03

  It's a lesbian thing. It's a lesbian thing. And she could have stayed somewhere else. She just wanted to stay with me.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  Obviously.

• 45:44Speaker 03

  Anyhow, I go to New York with her.

• 45:47Jonathan Cohen?

  You gotta get your claws in there.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know what I mean?

• 45:50Speaker 03

  Um, she goes to New York. I fly out like a week and a half later and we go on a camping trip. And I was in my head, she bought me a one-way ticket and I figured, you know, I have a life in Los Angeles. I have an apartment. I pay rent. I have mail, but I stayed.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  Mail, mail.

• 46:07Speaker 03

  I really remember having anxiety about my mailbox. I was like, the mail.

• 46:10Mayim Bialik?

  It's not about the mailbox, honey. It's not about the mailbox.

• 46:14Speaker 03

  But anyhow, we um, I ended up staying, I ended up staying in New York for basically the month of September, came back a little bit in October and then flew back to New York end of October and I stayed until the breakup, which is where we left off.

• 46:30Mayim Bialik?

  Until the breakup. So when was the breakup? Six years later, five minutes later?

• 46:34Speaker 03

  No, it was eight months later. It was eight months later in 2017 and

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Thursday.

• 46:40Speaker 03

  We were living, yeah, right, at exactly 4:30 PM. And we were living in the same, we were, Raven had an apartment in New York. I moved into that apartment, but at the time I had also had to let go of my apartment in LA. And there was a studio that became available in the same building. So I rented that studio, which had become basically a storage unit and

• 47:05Speaker 02

  She's asleep in the tub.

• 47:07Speaker 03

  Oh my God. So anyway, she breaks up with me and I was like, cool. Now I have to move from the sixth floor into the fourth floor studio.

• 47:14Mayim Bialik?

  From the sixth floor to the fourth floor?

• 47:16Speaker 02

  In the same building.

• 47:17Speaker 03

  I was moving on down, moving on down and

• 47:21Speaker 02

  You had a question?

• 47:21Speaker 03

  In the same building.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  You had a question?

• 47:23Jonathan Cohen?

  I do have a question. Again, this, the writer in me wants to set a little bit of additional context.

• 47:28Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 47:28Jonathan Cohen?

  So we're going to be a little circuitous, but you're, there's a breakup. You've moved down two floors. You're in the same building. I have my hands like, I imagine the apartments are right above each other, just so the vibe is there, but that's irrelevant. The movie version, they're right above each other. What precipitated the breakup in the relationship? And I have a menu of choices. None of them could be right. All of a sudden it got real. You're like, holy shit. It's been eight months. Like this is, you know, I know, I'm no longer checking my mail in LA. Miranda's finally gotten comfortable. Now Raven is like, holy shit. I got this girl here. Now what do I do with her? Like what, what's happening in the dynamic of the relationship that sparks the breakup?

• 48:12Speaker 02

  What's happening is the same thing that's happening in our relationship now. It's real. There's real conversations happening. There's conversations of future and how we want to be and what we want our lives to be. And I wasn't ready for it. But I'm ready now, which is why we are together, which is why the conversations are stronger now. Because I ran like a little coward and now I'm back with my tail between my legs, hoping that she forgives me for that moment. But it's.

• 48:39Speaker 03

  I have. And honestly, to be fair, I kind of knew too that that wasn't going to be our end, even though I was very sad and very, very heartbroken and walking the streets of New York, crying like a lost little puppy, but nobody cared in New York, right? The people were just like, move out of the way, you crazy. But I knew that there would be something that brought us back together.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  And our therapist told us that it's very bad to um squander in the past and not bring it up. So for the safety of our relationship, can we talk about the now? Because I have a lot of things to answer for that time that I don't want to talk about right now.

• 49:16Jonathan Cohen?

  Hold just one second. You'll see where I'm going.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 49:19Jonathan Cohen?

  This is important because a lot of relationships have this, like, they talk about the chase, but I don't think it is that. I actually think it's when two people are coming together, it does get real. Like, we begin to realize that, oh my gosh, this is real. And the comfort of each individual is a kind of like moving. And as you sort of get together, there's a freak out that happens. Everyone, like every couple, everyone I hear, it's very rare that both people are like totally calm and centered, come together, it gets super real and no one has that catastrophic freak out. And what happens is that you you withdraw because in order to be in a relationship with someone, you have to expand and start to merge. And we're talking sort of like in the energetic space and emotional state.

• 50:02Jonathan Cohen?

  And you're no longer an individual and you give up some of your freedom and you.

• 50:06Mayim Bialik?

  You have to have sex with someone that you actually like, instead of someone you just are lusting after. It's very exhausting.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  Very different. Very different.

• 50:15Jonathan Cohen?

  Very different. Every time we're talking to people who especially who are are known people, we say it's not, you know, everything that they go through is mirrored in in other other people that are not famous. It's not about the fact that they're famous. We all have protective mechanisms. And earlier in this conversation, Raven has a look in her eye that scans when when people are talking, that's like looking for bullshit. And there's a parallel in, you know, in the early part of this conversation. My and Ray, the way Raven was telling the story, a lot of parallels in my experience. And, you know, I've been. Able to spend quite a bit of time with Mime over the last two and a half years and getting to know her. She has that same look.

• 50:58Mayim Bialik?

  What, the "I don't trust anyone and that's never gonna change" look?

• 51:03Speaker 02

  Exactly. It's a club, you're welcome.

• 51:07Jonathan Cohen?

  And a lot of people have it, but I think it's heightened being in the industry because everyone is... You're a product in the industry. You gotta turn the camera on, you have to perform, there's no sick days. No one cares about what your internal world is. And when no one cares about what your internal world is, and you have a lot of time that you spend where no one cares about what your internal world is, it's very hard to then transfer into a relationship with the cameras off and trust that people are gonna care about what your internal world is.

• 51:37Mayim Bialik?

  Also, I'm the boss everywhere. Meaning, I also have a life of people just like lying to me all the time, that I'm amazing when I'm not. People don't tell me if I hurt their feelings, even if I wanna know. Like, you can't even get a straight answer from people sometimes. Like, even if you're like, "Oh, did I just hurt your feelings?" No, it's fine! Like, you'd have no idea. So, what's also a challenge, and like, I was, you know, I was with someone for 15 years. I dated, I was married, we had kids. Like, it's very hard to go from also being like the boss person. Or, not even the boss person, but like, the person that everyone's tending to. But then other people have needs too. And it's like, but I'm not done having my needs, cuz those were my work needs.

• 52:21Mayim Bialik?

  Now I have personal needs. Who's gonna tell... Like, it makes me feel like I was like this like, just bottomless pit of need. Like, is there room for me to give to anyone else? Cuz I still need taken care of. It's just got real personal, real fast.

• 52:36Speaker 03

  Mime, I have a question though. Were you able to identify what your personal needs were and communicate them?

• 52:44Mayim Bialik?

  No.

• 52:45Speaker 03

  No?

• 52:46Mayim Bialik?

  No. How could I? I was always told when I was hungry, when I was angry, when I was sad, when I was happy. It was like... I mean, and also, I was just like, my parents are first-generation Americans, and I was raised very like, "I'll tell you when you're cold, put a jacket on." "But I'm not cold, but yes, you are." So like, also, that's just the way a lot of us were raised in the, you know, 70s and 80s. So like, add that to then, like, the industry, and also, like, you know, my parents did the best that they could. Like, my mom actually protected me a ton, like, a lot more than a lot of kids were protected. But still, it's like, my entire consciousness was built around, "How do I make you happy?" "How do we know that I did my job well?" you know?

• 53:27Speaker 02

  If they're happy, you're safe.

• 53:29Mayim Bialik?

  That's it!

• 53:30Speaker 02

  And you can go about your business and go cry in the bathroom somewhere else.

• 53:34Mayim Bialik?

  And, and that doesn't make for necessarily easy, productive, healthy relationships, because also, you know, that, that's why drugs and alcohol and food and sex and all those things, like, they numb it.

• 53:47Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm not trying to call either of you out by any stretch of the imagination, but circling back to like, that freak-out, it's really hard to settle in and to trust. It's really much, you know, the programming is to pull back and to say, "I can only figure out my needs alone," instead of in relation. So, you know, that's sort of where I was going full circle in terms of, you know, you moving down to that second, to the fourth floor.

• 54:10Mayim Bialik?

  The fourth floor!

• 54:11Jonathan Cohen?

  Is, that makes, you know, a lot of sense, and I was almost, you know, just saying it more as like, "Of course, of course, when it gets real, anyone with the programming that you have to figure out your needs alone is gonna, is gonna try to figure out their needs alone."

• 54:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Jonathan, you hit a lot of different nailheads, bro. Congrats.

• 54:31Mayim Bialik?

  I, I wanted to ask, like, I got into therapy, basically, as soon as I, it was humanly possible. I'm curious, kind of like, what, what works best for, you know, both of you together or separately? What, what kind of work is sort of nurturing you now?

• 54:47Speaker 03

  I feel like I've been in therapy forever and, and I mean, seriously, I think like at seven years old, my mom was like, here, therapy, because she was getting a divorce and I started making like clay models of my feelings. But I think recently, what has been helpful, honestly, is more of the somatic therapy approach, because I am highly aware of my shit. And I can very easily say, well, this happened and it triggered this, and this was the trickle effect, and then this was the result, and now that's why I feel X, Y, and Z about myself, or this environment, or the situation, or this person. But the

• 55:26Speaker 03

  awareness seems to have less impact on the action, or the feelings, and especially those that end up stuck in my body. So figuring out how to feel a sensation and react to it appropriately, or let it go, has been really big for me. And there's so many different ways to get there. I do have a somatic therapist, and I actually haven't seen her in a little bit of time. But a lot of the work that she would do with me was, she had some, she had a lot of visual representations, and she had something called a pillow, that had

• 56:04Speaker 03

  pillars of identifications of different feelings, and models as how to express yourself, release energies from your body. And it's really interesting. It's a different, it's a different style than I'm used to, than just like, kind of standard cogbee or talk therapy. But I also have found that things like acupuncture, and meditation, to an extent, I am not the best meditator, but affirmations, and just being super conscious in that world, and

• 56:37Speaker 03

  Feeling into my body and not attaching meaning to it more so than it needs to be, not assuming every feeling is fact, has been big and has been significant. And I mean, we were in therapy together and that's more standard.

• 56:55Mayim Bialik?

  Talk therapy.

• 56:56Speaker 03

  Talk therapy.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  Osteologists.

• 56:59Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, an osteopath?

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, we go to an osteopath now.

• 57:03Speaker 03

  Oh. Um, she calls herself a manual therapist. And that's been something too, that's been really cool. And we have a kind of our slew, and this is so LA, but like our slew of, you know, healers and body workers and energy people, but it, it makes a difference. I mean, it, it does.

• 57:24Mayim Bialik?

  What is the shadow work, Raven? Can you tell us a little bit about that? I, I've read about it, but I don't remember how it works or what the theory is.

• 57:31Speaker 02

  I, um, I will, I'm starting and learning, so I have no idea what I'm doing. So let me just start from the top of mind though, because at 18, I told my family that I wanted to go to therapy and they were like, what? Therapists in certain communities are looked down upon. You're telling people your secrets, they're going to tell your business. Um, started there, uh, got pretty much the understanding that I have PTSD and, um, I don't have bipolar syndrome, but I have like depression that is in that world. So took some medicines for that and I took a medicine once and I found myself underneath the table while filming and could not get up and kind of got off of that. Not really happy with it.

• 58:14Speaker 02

  Then I stopped going to therapy and started doing energy work and meditations and Netrim Buddhism for a few years until they started asking me for money. And I'm like, wait a minute. By just going through the motions and there realizing my own personal power and energy grids that I can create for myself to release my mind and body from the shackles of pain and allow my higher self to run. Wayne Dyer and all of those self-help books really put me on a path of personal mental work. However, not really touching my anger at all and not realizing I have anger because

• 58:58Speaker 02

  it was passive and you're not supposed to be angry when you're a little kid.

• 59:02Mayim Bialik?

  I don't, I don't know what that emotion, I don't know about that emotion. I've actually been working on this lately and my therapist was like, name some situations that make you angry. And I'm like, um, and I'm like, I always have a different word for it. It's like, well, I'm disappointed. Or like, or like, I know rage. I'm really good with rage, but like, I've also had to curb that. But I, it was like she was speaking a different language. And it was like, my brain was working so hard to try and figure out like, what is anger? And she was like, can you imagine it being productive? And I was like, no. And she's like, oh, but just like, sometimes you cry and you feel better. I'm like, mm, no. Like, when people are angry, things break and people get hurt and everybody cries and leaves.

• 59:48Speaker 02

  Exactly. Why would I be angry?

• 59:49Speaker 03

  She's talking the exact same crap as you.

• 59:51Speaker 02

  Why would I be angry? It ruins people's lives. That doesn't make sense.

• 59:54Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and how could it be produc- like, what, you feel good after being angry?

• 59:57Speaker 02

  You don't feel good after being angry because after I'm angry, it doesn't work, it just doesn't happen. Like, who are, where have you been on my life?

• 1:00:06Mayim Bialik?

  I'm just right here, suffering.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  With me.

• 1:00:10Mayim Bialik?

  No, I don't, I don't know, I don't know what that one is, anger.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  I don't know what that is.

• 1:00:14Mayim Bialik?

  I've had therapists be like, will you, because like, some people have tried to like, make me like, get it out, where you like, do like a role play with like a person. And I was like, no, that made me just start crying. I was like, I don't, and they're like, oh, well, it can be really helpful. Just like, get it out. I'm like, I don't think that's how it, that's not where it's gonna go. I don't know, but that's not.

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  She was like, you need to get rid of your anger. You need to go scream at the top of a mountain. And she went, she took me to like a neighborhood and I was like this.

• 1:00:42Speaker 03

  No, but you know, can I tell you what's really interesting about this conversation? Can I, listen though, you-

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  I'm learning.

• 1:00:49Speaker 03

  I know, you're totally learning. But Raven is somebody who will look at me and tell me to express my anger. And she'll be like, get angry, get angry with me. Tell me why you're angry. And I can't. And I fear becoming angry so much. And I also-

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  Similar to the conversation earlier and what I kind of say is like, I'm a people pleaser, but the fear of making anyone feel unhappy or not showing up with, oh, everything's fine. Or you were talking about your needs and you know, just being like, oh, I don't really know. I don't have any or whatever. I, I have such a tendency to do that because I'm so afraid of disrupting anything with saying, actually, wait, this didn't work for me, or I don't really want to go there today, or I'd rather do. And so it's like, it coexists.

• 1:01:40Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, but there's, but I.

• 1:01:43Mayim Bialik?

  We win, Miranda. We win.

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  It's a little different.

• 1:01:45Mayim Bialik?

  It's a little different.

• 1:01:46Speaker 02

  It's a little different because I say that to you, what are you angry with me? What are you angry at me for? Or tell me what you don't like about me, right? I can handle people angry.

• 1:01:56Mayim Bialik?

  Why, why can you handle it? Say it.

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:01:58Mayim Bialik?

  Wait, wait.

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  Why, why can I handle it? Cause I've been handling it my whole life.

• 1:02:01Mayim Bialik?

  There you go. So I can, I will take everyone's upset over mine because I'm, because my goal is to fix it. Because then we move on, right?

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  And then I learned, I learned, I learned that I'm, we're not supposed to fix it. People are supposed to go through their own emotions and shit.

• 1:02:18Mayim Bialik?

  Whatever. Then I don't want to hear about it. I'm a live alone and I'm going to also marry God. Cause I don't want to be with another human.

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  If you have a problem, don't tell me and I won't try to fix it for you because I am outside looking in and this is your issue. What's my issue? Don't worry. I'll fix it myself because I'm not, I don't need you to fix it for me.

• 1:02:35Mayim Bialik?

  But what that really is, is don't look at me. That's, I mean, for me, that's what it is. Just like, no, because it's, it's true. Like I can spend all my time thinking about the him in the room, the her in the room. Like I will, I'll, I'll take on the government also of this country, right? Like I'll spend my time there because what's hardest is saying like, oh, ouch, right? I hurt. Like I have, you know, who's going to hold me?

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  And when, when I am angry, like the smallest thing set me off and my entire body is just vibrating at such a speed to where my hand, I'm like, I'm Harry Potter. I have like magic fingertips of pain coming out to the point where, let me see what I do, right? And Taj is on, our publicist is on, Miranda's here. Miranda's getting in the industry. She loves glam. She's like, I can't try, I can't wait to try out the new glam person. And in my head, and I've never said this babe, so in my head, I'm like. Honey, you'll learn to just do it yourself because why be angry at anybody else when they mess up when you can just learn to do it yourself and you don't even have to have that irritation like I have such irritation with people.

• 1:03:43Mayim Bialik?

  Well, I was just gonna say what you said is like, I mean, this is, my mom said that when I was little, I needed my back rub, I wanted my back rubbed a lot, I wanted comfort, right? And she would get so exhausted like rubbing my back, rubbing my back, and I would say to her, I'll rub my own back, like when she would leave and, you know, and it was a cute story that my mom always told of like, she's so independent, but what it was, was like, if it's not how I want, I'm gonna take care of it, I'm, I'm just, and that's what it's gonna be. And then I can't be upset, I don't have to be like, I don't have to be disappointed because I took care of it.

• 1:04:21Speaker 02

  And no one's ever gonna take, and I know, and I'm learning at this sentence, this is an old thought process, I'm working on it, but no one's ever gonna take care of it as well as I will.

• 1:04:29Mayim Bialik?

  True story.

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  And people, they ask so much of you and they're, and I give them 100,000%, which is why I love the Japanese culture and their culture and in their work culture, if they're building a cup, the person who melts the plastic melts it to 120% so that the next person can do their job to 120% and next person does their job and then by the end of the product, it's gorgeous. Here, in this country, we do 10% and hopefully the next person does 80, so by the time I get it, I'm fixing the problem and it's wasting my time and energy. Let me do it from the beginning, I'll make it myself.

• 1:05:10Mayim Bialik?

  Jonathan is sometimes a, I don't wanna say a hider of emotions, he's a protector of emotions and you know what? That's his freaking prerogative. He's Canadian, they're really, really sweet, but it really bothers me because also you said something that I think is so interesting.

• 1:05:25Mayim Bialik?

  I pick up on things that other people don't. And I wish people would just trust me. Like, I know when he's upset. And it makes me so frustrated because he'll just like, and also, forgive me, it sometimes is a dude thing. It's the like, "I'm fine." And then they like pout around and huff and puff for like two hours. It's like, okay, but why don't you just like say what's going on? But there's this notion, like you had said, it's like, I've read so many scripts. I know how to communicate. So many different emotions, so many different ways. You think I can't read your face? Oh, you think I can't read your face, Jonathan? That's the problem.

• 1:06:04Jonathan Cohen?

  The flip side of that is when I'm truly not upset, but she's expecting me because the script version in her head is like, "Oh, he should be mad about this." And she's like, "You're mad, right?" And I'm like, "No, really, I'm not. I kinda have to eat." Or I'm like thinking about something else. Like, "I'm not thinking about you at all."

• 1:06:24Mayim Bialik?

  Everyone's thinking about me all the time.

• 1:06:26Speaker 03

  Who are you talking about? We are the world.

• 1:06:28Mayim Bialik?

  Narcissist. Anyway.

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  I have, see, I have, I have the issue of, I know that when I'm in my mood, I shut down. I had a partner once come to me and she goes, "You ruined my entire three days." And I'm like, "How did I ruin your entire three days? I didn't even talk to you." She goes-

• 1:06:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, her energy is so strong.

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  "Your energy is so strong when you are in a mood that no one can function around you."

• 1:06:54Mayim Bialik?

  That's him! That's you! He will suck the joy right out of her room.

• 1:06:59Jonathan Cohen?

  But I'm like, "It has nothing to do with you. Just like, let me take care of my business and I'll be back when I'm available."

• 1:07:05Speaker 02

  And that's my sentence.

• 1:07:07Mayim Bialik?

  Before we let you go, I do want, I mean, I could just talk to you forever about all this stuff.

• 1:07:12Speaker 02

  Same here. Can we do this again?

• 1:07:13Mayim Bialik?

  This is super fun. But I do want to give you, I do want to kind of like give you the space also to talk a little bit about the YouTube channel that you have, which is so cool. It's called 8pm. The P and the M being your last names, correct? It took me a second. I was like, "What happens at 8pm?" Like a dodo, and then I kept reading.

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  It's the new, it's the new happy hour.

• 1:07:35Mayim Bialik?

  It's actually like getting into bedtime. But you, you have, you have some really cool content and you talk to really fun people. And the two of you are obviously so much fun together. And I just love kind of this dynamic. So tell us a little bit more about what happens on, on 8 p.m.

• 1:07:52Speaker 03

  Well, like you said, we have some, some videos are us in the kitchen. Some are us talking to cool people. Some of us are driving in our car. So we have a bit of a vlog, a lifestyle. Tea time is one of our series where we sit down with a specific topic and just kind of talk about it over a cup of tea. But ultimately it's meant to just be a fun, feel-good, real space where people can come and hang out and watch a couple be a couple.

• 1:08:27Mayim Bialik?

  I love that.

• 1:08:28Jonathan Cohen?

  We heard there's a podcast in the works, which is a title that I think is amazing.

• 1:08:32Speaker 03

  I have started, I've started a podcast. It's called The Things We Carry. I am a birth doula and that is kind of what sparked the idea because a lot of people are so interested. I also love just talking about mental health and the things people do and the shit we think about. And that's what we carry. And the things that we carry become defining principles of our lives. So let's, let's talk about it. But yeah.

• 1:09:01Mayim Bialik?

  It has really been a pleasure. You know, Raven, I've, I've seen you, obviously, your whole life. And I know that, you know, you have an existence that is so unique. And I know that it's hard to feel seen and I would imagine it still is, but it is really, really such a pleasure to get to, to talk to you and let you just, I don't know, like you just seem very comfortable in your skin and I hope that that is the case. And it's been really a pleasure to get to know both of you.

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  Mayim, I want to say that, you know, I'm sure you know a lot of people in our community and everyone has their own experience, but it is really, really something special to sit with a female like you who understands the situations that I've been through because being a leader of your own show and celebrity and fame at a young age, especially during that time period as well till now. Like we said at the beginning, something's a little different and it's good to hear because a lot of the things that you said about how you are with anger and work, Miranda and I talk about on an everyday basis.

• 1:10:09Speaker 03

  And I have to jump in, sorry to interrupt you babe, but I want to say this about the both of you, which is also very true. You both are extremely smart and I think that that can work for and against you in a lot of ways.

• 1:10:21Mayim Bialik?

  It mostly works against us.

• 1:10:23Speaker 03

  I know, and I get it because although, again, I didn't grow up the same way you two did, I have similarities and that level of intelligence and awareness and self-anализation can become overwhelming at times and can become also extremely isolative and that's a blessing and a curse in and of itself, but you both are just very smart.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  It feels, it feels very kindred and I appreciate you and applaud you and thank you for telling me your truths in that way. And Jonathan, thank you for saying things as well that I haven't even been able to put into words myself because of the work that I've been doing. So this is beyond the podcast, but honestly, this conversation was needed in my life right now for both of us to hear and I appreciate you both and thank you.

• 1:11:07Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you so, so, so, so much.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:11:14Mayim Bialik?

  I like when I meet people who are so much like me.

• 1:11:20Jonathan Cohen?

  I mean, the parallels are fairly uncanny.

• 1:11:23Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, I assumed. I mean, it's so much more for her. Not that it's a competition, but like, like she said, she doesn't know any other existence, you know, she's had to build so much up to be such a strong, confident person. It seems like this relationship is just really beautiful and strong and I can't even imagine. I mean, working all week and then touring all weekend.

• 1:11:47Jonathan Cohen?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:11:48Mayim Bialik?

  Really unbelievable. And, and also she was so loved for how cute she was. So it's like the pressure then of like, can you have an awkward phase? You know, like what, like, you're gonna grow up, you have no idea what you're gonna look like when you're 16, at the time that you're three, you know?

• 1:12:06Jonathan Cohen?

  What's relatable, though, because we always say it's not about the celebrity. The celebrity just heightens this performative, people pleasing, shoving your feelings inside requirement. This scanning that happens, the what's out in the environment, who's gonna be upset? How do I contort myself to avoid that emotion or that reaction? And that hyper vigilance, as we talked about in the Dustin Hoffman episode, and we've spoken about with Jeanette McCurdy. She had a huge, I think every child who has grown up with significant time on sets has that similar experience, but doesn't matter if you've grown up on set or not. If you had a hypercritical parent,

• 1:12:51Jonathan Cohen?

  if you grew up in a stressful environment where your parents were fighting a lot, it might not have had anything to do with you, but you may have looked externally to try to control or try to analyze, is any of your behavior going to contribute to the volatility in the household? It's just such a relatable condition that breeds many of the same restrictive coping mechanisms that make people want to disappear or not have needs or constantly looking to evaluate how they're gonna come across or what they can do in order to control or impact the environment outside of themselves.

• 1:13:26Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and I think like, you know, as humans, we're constantly juggling. You know, as we talked about, expectations and, and yes, control and, um, you know, especially, you know, for any child, we're at the mercy of these people who are taking care of us. So we kind of have to go along with all the things that they do, right? Whether it's like, oh, we take pictures and we put you on television, or we go to the zoo, or like, whatever it is, we are all like, that's the human experience of being a dependent child. And, you know, as I think you and I have highlighted over and over, what happens when you're a child, it stays with you. You know, even if it's in the things that you want to do different, or that you want to experience different,

• 1:14:10Mayim Bialik?

  like, welcome to being human, people. That's all I have to say about it. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time.