#ICYMI - The Science of SailGP

In case you missed this episode on the Playing with Science channel…. Hosts Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice investigate the science-filled, data-driven world of SailGP yacht racing alongside Team USA member Hans Henken and Team USA performance analyst Phil Crain. Photo Credit: ©SAILGP-Javier Salinas.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chuck Nice?

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• 0:31Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 0:32Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 0:33Gary O'Reilly?

  And this is Playing With Science. Today Chuck and I are getting all shipshape and Bristol fashion, or in plain English, we're going sailing.

• 0:41Chuck Nice?

  Ooh.

• 0:42Gary O'Reilly?

  And what a beauty she is, too. The F-50 class catamaran competes in SailGP and is the fastest thing with a sail on water.

• 0:53Chuck Nice?

  That's right. And joining us from Team USA is SailGP performance analyst Phil Crane, along with crew member who is also an aeronautical and astronautical engineer and Olympic hopeful, Hans Henken.

• 1:06Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, and that's going to be a great set of interviews. But before we have them walk the plank, and we will get them to tell us all their secrets, and of course, where they buried the treasure. Yes, nothing better than buried treasure. But in all seriousness, SailGP is the sport at its best. And if you've never heard of this sport racing at this level, today's episode will whet your appetite, put you at the front of the pack. And once you've listened to this episode, go straight to the SailGP website. We'll give you the details later. But before we get to our first guest, we must congratulate the US team for their first ever win in SailGP. That was race five in New York, and really, it must have been brilliant to podium in their own country. First up, Chuck.

• 1:48Chuck Nice?

  And as we promised, coming to us right now is the flight controller for USA, a former world champion moth sailor, which I'm really interested in. One of the coolest things you've ever seen in your life. And he is also an aeronautical and an astronautical engineer, Hans.

• 2:10Gary O'Reilly?

  Does he know anything about science?

• 2:11Chuck Nice?

  Maybe, maybe he might know a little bit about science. It's Hans Henken. Hans, how are you, buddy?

• 2:17Speaker 02

  I'm doing great, thanks. How are you guys?

• 2:19Gary O'Reilly?

  We're good.

• 2:20Chuck Nice?

  Thanks for coming to us all the way from Germany.

• 2:23Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, we're pretty excited about you being on the show and talking about the SailGP experience because it's ridiculous when you think you are actually, or are you not? Are you flying or sailing?

• 2:37Speaker 02

  It's a little bit of both for sure. At its base dimension, we're definitely sailing the boat, but then there's kind of that third dimension where we kind of fly out of the water a little bit and get going a bit faster. So yeah, I'd say we're doing a little bit of both for sure.

• 2:49Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, and you know what? Why don't we get into that because, you know, I think for the listener, what'll be fascinating is the flying part. And, you know, we're talking about foil racing and the foil is, which is what is under the boat. And it uses kind of like the same physics as an airplane, lift and drag, to pull the boat up out of the water once the boat reaches a certain speed. So can you break that down for us and our listeners so that we can get kind of a mental picture of what's going on?

• 3:21Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  Sure, of course. So we have these big hydrofoils, which are these kind of L-shaped boards that go into the water. And as the boat continues to increase in its speed, we're able to add lift to these boards, the same way that an airplane adds lift to its airplane wings. And for a typical speed around 18 knots, the boat is able to have enough speed to generate enough lift to actually lift the entire boat out of the water. So the force that the boat is producing on the water, the foils are able to overcome that force and lift it out.

• 3:55Gary O'Reilly?

  So, you are, all right, so you are now using, if the wind is, say, 15, 18 knots, you can probably get to 50, 60 knots speed?

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, theoretically, that's the whole point of these boats is they go extremely fast.

• 4:11Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 4:12Gary O'Reilly?

  And, uh... But that's not right, is it? How do you, if you're wind powered, how do you go faster than the wind?

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Well, it all, that is all about apparent wind. So if you, if you think of it this way, on a still day, completely still, and you're riding your bike down the road, you kind of feel like there's wind on your face. That's apparent wind. So as the boat continues to go faster and faster, it actually is creating its own breeze. It's seeing a different kind of wind, an apparent wind in front of it.

• 4:38Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  And that's what allows the boat to continue to increase in speed and go faster than the breeze that we actually have currently.

• 4:43Chuck Nice?

  Wow. So you know what? You just sparked in my mind, you know, if.

• 4:47Gary O'Reilly?

  Is it food related? Cause if get out.

• 4:49Chuck Nice?

  Normally, I, normally it makes me hungry. Anything that we talk about normally makes me hungry. But I have to say, uh, you know, uh, it's funny cause you know, as a grand prix racer, it's kind of the same when you think about, uh, the foil, uh, creating lift, that means it also behind it has to create draft. So when you're talking about that apparent wind, that means that you can reach a certain speed that you create enough turbulence behind you to disrupt what you're doing in such a way to screw you up. You could actually go, you could actually go too fast.

• 5:25Speaker 02

  There is definitely that, there is definitely that problem. And for exactly that reason, we have two different sets of foils. We have a light air set of foils and then a high speed set of foils.

• 5:36Chuck Nice?

  Ah.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  The light air set of foils are used for conditions where it's significantly lighter. So 10 knots or under. And then as you got to go faster in about 14 to 15 knots, we add the high speed foils. So that, that exact problem is diminished.

• 5:50Gary O'Reilly?

  But they're, they're different shape.

• 5:52Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 5:52Gary O'Reilly?

  And they're on different parts of the hull. Yeah. Is that correct?

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. So those, those are two different types of hydrofoils that are added to the boat and they have to be done before we go on the racing. So every morning there's a forecast and then SailGP makes a call on what boards we'll use for that particular day.

• 6:09Chuck Nice?

  Right. Cause everybody has to use the exact, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. When, when you say SailGP makes the call, it's because the sanctioning body has determined that every single boat must be exactly the same. Right?

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Correct. Correct. Exactly.

• 6:23Gary O'Reilly?

  So it's basically like a set of tires on a racing car, on a Formula One that everybody. All right, I'm I'm trying. You've probably guessed I'm not a sailor. You've got a flight control system which is new as as opposed to what was a joystick. Is that correct?

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Correct. When the boats were kind of being test run and designed previously, there was a joystick controller.

• 6:45Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  And that turned out to be not very adequate to be used. It wasn't the response time of the joystick wasn't fast enough.

• 6:52Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  To keep up with the user interface that we needed to actually fly the boats in in bigger grease. So it's been changed to these two different knobs on either end that you're able to spin in a complete circle. And it allows you to have a much faster interface with the foils.

• 7:07Gary O'Reilly?

  What sort of time are we talking about from you actioning something at your hands to the reaction of the foils?

• 7:13Speaker 02

  It's it's almost one to one.

• 7:16Gary O'Reilly?

  Wow.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Almost the instant. I mean, it's not perfect. You know, every system has its delay. And that's delay and the system changing from the input of the turn radius to the foil. But there are gain settings that you're able to change on the flight controller to help. But for the most part, it is one to one.

• 7:31Gary O'Reilly?

  With you able to have a kind of one to one relationship with the foils. Are you reacting to the environmental conditions in the race or is someone instructing you?

• 7:42Speaker 02

  For the most part, I'm making calls of my own about how the boats fly into the water and the new pressure that's coming off off the land.

• 7:50Chuck Nice?

  Wow. So I had the great pleasure of watching you guys. I couldn't get on the media boat. And be out on the water because of course they know me.

• 7:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 7:59Chuck Nice?

  And they were like, no, don't let that guy on the boat. No. Uh, I I I couldn't stay for um, uh, you know, for the time that would take to get back to land. So I watched it, you know, from where the cameras were on land. And uh, the people that were watching who have never seen a sailing race before.

• 8:19Chuck Nice?

  Like people stayed the whole time. Yeah. That's how exciting.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was amazing.

• 8:24Chuck Nice?

  That's how exciting it was. People didn't say like, and this is New York, alright? This is New York. People see crap all the time and they're like, oh, okay. That looks alright. And then they just go on about their business. People were stopping and watching the entire race and races. Yeah. It was incredible because first of all, it's just so exciting to watch these boats come up out of the water. The amount of speed and the course is so tight. I mean, oh my god. Why make it easy? Yeah, so, and speaking of that, alright. Yeah, there you go. So, here we go. You guys are getting up to speeds, you know, routinely forty-five, you know,

• 9:07Chuck Nice?

  you can get up to fifty miles an hour, sixty miles an hour if you want it in a straight line. But with the winds being disrupted by the buildings and the water was real, it was a beautiful day on Saturday. It was a beautiful day. But the Hudson face got so much current. The water was a little choppy, okay? And the course is so tight. How, how common is it to see like a, a collision? Or how afraid are you of a collision? And not you, not you colliding, but somebody else hitting you. Cause I'd be more scared of that.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  I mean, there's, there's always that, that fear in the back of your mind that you're like, wow, you know, we're going really fast and everyone else is trying to do their best and stay in control as well. And I think it takes everyone on the teams to be able to look outside the boat and not only focus on what we're doing, but also try to focus on what everyone else is doing.

• 10:01Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  That way we're all in tune with every single maneuver. Cause you can't, you can't, the decisions we make highly affect the boats around us at the same time. So no matter what we do, other people are thinking the same thing. So it's, it's a group effort on keeping us safe. But at the same time, we're all very competitive. So we're trying to get that edge all the time, you know?

• 10:18Chuck Nice?

  Oh my god, that is, that's very. That's very much like Formula One and NASCAR. Yeah. Where, where, you know, you have to be competitive with the guy, but you also have to care about the other guy too. Like everybody has to care. About one another, but at the same time you want to beat them.

• 10:32Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, but you don't care enough because I mean, and this is on water. So therefore it's going to take me about this long to mention pirates. You are going to be piracy because you're going to steal that other guy's wind. You're going to try and cut off his supply. And that tactic, I can see it over and over again in sailing. Is it still as relevant in racing at GP?

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Yes, bad air is still very relevant in sail GP and it's something that we have to deal with all the time. And you have to deal with it at higher speeds and not only bad air you have to deal with, you also have to deal with bad wake through the water.

• 11:04Chuck Nice?

  That's right.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  Turbulence in the water is a big deal for the boils to go through because we're sailing in two mediums.

• 11:10Chuck Nice?

  Right, exactly because what's going on above the water and what's going on below the water are equally as important for you guys.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  Very, very true.

• 11:17Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. So let me ask you this, speaking about what you said about, you know, wake. So you guys are sailing on the Hudson, which is not a river. People think it's a river. It's not. It's a tidally influenced estuary. The native.

• 11:29Gary O'Reilly?

  You should do you.

• 11:30Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. And well, I only noticed because I do some research for climate and so that's how I know.

• 11:34Gary O'Reilly?

  That's cool. I get that.

• 11:34Chuck Nice?

  So anyway, the Native Americans called the Hudson, the river that flows both ways. And that's because the currents are notorious. So.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're very strong all week.

• 11:47Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, man. So how do you guys, how do you deal with something like that, especially when the currents are changing direction? Uh, you know.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  I mean, that's, that's huge. It's, it's a big part of everything in our sport and it's something that's really relatable to sailing. So a lot of us are able to bring that back from typical normal sailing and, and apply it to the F50 sailing for sure. But it's a judgment call all the time. You have to, it's just like seeing pressure on the water from the breeze. You have to make a current a decision and calculation that goes into where you place your maneuvers, how to get around the race course as efficiently as possible. So it's just another one, another variable you have to add into the entire equation of what is sailboat racing all the time.

• 12:28Gary O'Reilly?

  So you mentioned the fact that you've got to be mindful of another competitor's wake. How often does that get done on purpose?

• 12:36Speaker 02

  I don't know if it's, you know, at this early stage of racing, I don't think a lot of us are really too worried about doing it on purpose quite yet.

• 12:45Gary O'Reilly?

  Alright.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  I think as you see, as you see it develop down the line in the next two events, I think we'll start to see more of the competitive edge and really trying to make that a big factor in how we sail the boats.

• 12:55Gary O'Reilly?

  Well, I was telling Chuck that the British team capsized just out of sportsmanship so as to allow the other teams a better chance of winning. You do realise that, don't you?

• 13:04Chuck Nice?

  The Brits are very polite, very polite.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I totally realise that.

• 13:07Chuck Nice?

  Very, very polite. Hey, so speaking of that, hey, you guys right now clocked the longest time for flight. So, you know, you guys clocked over an hour of flight in the race and you also have the fastest speed in a straight line thus far. I'm trying to figure out, is this something that you guys take and then use it? Like, you're like, oh man, what happened that when this happened? And then you work on that as a team? Because you're kind of like a hive mind. There's like five guys. Go ahead.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, so to piggyback off that, there's an extraordinary amount of data that comes off these boats, just like in F1. And all that data is being able to be processed and used by all of us on the team to be able to figure out why something works and why something else doesn't work. And so from all those episodes and all, from all those different kind of incidents, we're able to kind of diagnose with the data exactly why something's working really well and then we try to replicate that in the racing.

• 14:11Gary O'Reilly?

  Can you, how, how quick is that data from the boat to the shore and back to you? And do, I mean, you're not going to sit there and read your computer screen in the middle of a race, or are you?

• 14:21Speaker 02

  Well, so it's funny you ask. We have, we have onboard, we have... Six different computer screens giving us real time data on our actual boat. In terms of boat speed, lift, drag, all these different kinds of metrics are being displayed on our boats. Are able to make snapshot decision making based upon that data. But then over the course of the day, it's all collected. And with the, with the great help from Oracle, we're able to have kind of debrief same day with that exact data, looking at it and being like, okay. This maneuver right here at, you know, three o'clock, this was a really good maneuver. Why was it good? And you'll go back to the data and right there in the debrief be like, okay, it's because this, this and this happened. Let's try replicate that next time.

• 15:03Gary O'Reilly?

  So, so, oh, sorry, Chad. You're an aeronautical and astronautical engineer.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  I am, yes.

• 15:10Gary O'Reilly?

  And congratulations, uh, with no sarcasm attached to that, I mean it, congratulations, that's brilliant. Um, you're gonna need that just to be able to absorb that kind of data in the middle of a race.

• 15:20Chuck Nice?

  Did you choose that course study because you knew you were going to be a flight controller on a GP vessel?

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Uh, it never, never really occurred to me ever that my, my studies would be applied in this direct way in my athletic career. But I'm happy to have the background knowledge to be able to apply it to it. And yes, it, it, it helps me a lot having the engineering background to be able to understand all this data and, and be able to help my fellow teammates kind of diagnose and kind of digest it in our debriefs.

• 15:48Chuck Nice?

  So, speaking of the data and what, uh, Gary just asked you with the computer screens and the real time data transfers. And at the same time, when I'm watching a race, what I see is I see a foil come up out of the water. And then I see a foil drop back down in the water and, you know, i- is, is that something that is more intuition? It's like, I feel like I've seen these conditions before or are you looking at a screen and saying, oh man, I gotta do this? Or is it a combination of the two?

• 16:19Speaker 02

  It's definitely a combination of the two, and I think at first it's all intuition.

• 16:23Gary O'Reilly?

  How long did it take you to learn your vessel?

• 16:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, so these boats are really, really new, and it's been a really, really fast, steep learning curve, being able to keep up with everything that has to be new, everything that has to be learned and kind of implied in the racing sense. Because not only do we have to learn it very quickly, but then we have to apply it in a very competitive atmosphere to be able to be better than other people. And so, you know, it's an ongoing process, and things about the boats are actually slowly changing as people kind of learn about them. They say, hey, you know, this system needs to be changed because I'm not physically able to control that well enough yet. So since Sydney and our first event back in February till now, there's been quite a few tweaks to the control system to allow, you know, allow the flight controllers and the different manipulators on the boat to have a better feel and better touch on the boats themselves.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  So for now, it's still an ongoing process learning the entire boat, for sure.

• 17:15Chuck Nice?

  And that's pretty wild, man. You guys are trailblazers, that's what you are. Well, actually, wake blazers, I should say, not trailblazers. But anyway, how do you work with the helmsman? Because now, the helmsman is the guy with the steering wheel, right?

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, correct.

• 17:29Chuck Nice?

  And you're the flight controller, you're actually, you know, tweaking the boat in all these little, not even little, in all these huge ways and little ways. And so are you sometimes flying the boat and he's sometimes flying the boat? Or are you guys working in tandem? Or how do you distribute labor so that you're never working against one another?

• 17:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a really good question. Luckily, we have comm sets onboard, so it's so loud onboard, we're going so fast that you physically have to have comms to be able to talk to each other.

• 18:01Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  So we have onboard communication. And how that works is in maneuvers, as you were talking about earlier, there's boards going up and down. And so at different times, different boards are being controlled by two different people.

• 18:13Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  So as we go, you know, one way, I'm controlling the main board, which is to lured, the one that's being under power and allowing the boat to have lift. And then as we slowly change direction, the helmsman takes control of that board, and then the new board goes down, and I would be taking control of that one. So there's a communication handoff saying, hey, look, you're flying the boat now, I'm going to concentrate on the new board going down. And then there's, okay, new board going down, happy for the old board to come up. And so there's a little bit of... Kind of a verbal handoff and then a physical handoff per se.

• 18:48Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 18:49Gary O'Reilly?

  For anybody listening to this that's never.

• 18:50Chuck Nice?

  It's insane.

• 18:51Gary O'Reilly?

  I know, but you know what? That's what has to happen. What I think anybody who has never seen sail GP.

• 18:57Chuck Nice?

  Oh, man.

• 18:58Gary O'Reilly?

  What will blow them away? Apart from the fact that you guys fly. And it's counterintuitive because you fly the boat and I'm sitting there going, how do you fly the boat? Fly boat. And so you go and watch it and you realize that when you tack, you pivot almost on one foil. I've never seen a craft that size be able to turn in such a small circle. It's unbelievable. How on earth do you turn a vessel that size in such a small circle? Cause it's outrageous when you see the guys tack.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I mean, what it really comes down to is the amount of surface area that's in the water. I mean, we're, we're sailing the boat on a very, very small amount of foil.

• 19:36Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  There's the, the elevators on the rudders are about as long as my arm. So three feet. And then, you know, depend upon if we're on the high speed foil or the, the light air foil. There's only maybe about six feet of surface area in terms of length.

• 19:49Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  So in total, there's, there's very little in the water. So when we go to rotate the boat, we're rotating the boat like on a surfboard. There's nothing down there.

• 19:57Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  So it just spins right around.

• 19:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Right. And so. That is awesome.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  Majority of the time, majority of the time, we're actually slowing the turn down for ourselves to get across. We could whip ourselves right off. The G forces are so high that we're, if you, if you see the video, everyone's leaning into the turn all the time. Cause the G force is going to throw us right off the boat.

• 20:14Gary O'Reilly?

  What sort of G force are you experiencing?

• 20:17Speaker 02

  I would say we're probably pulling at least two, two and a half Gs.

• 20:21Chuck Nice?

  Wow. That's, that's pretty, uh, that's pretty intense.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  For a sailboat, that's pretty intense.

• 20:25Chuck Nice?

  For a sailboat, that's pretty intense.

• 20:26Gary O'Reilly?

  That's serious.

• 20:26Chuck Nice?

  You know what I mean? Wow. Hey, listen, man. It has really been a pleasure, uh, having you on and, and talking about this exciting new sport that I think so many people are going to find, uh, and fall in love with. And, uh, we really appreciate you being here, man.

• 20:40Gary O'Reilly?

  Next race is in Cows and for anyone that doesn't know, that's on the Isle of Wight to the, the very south of England. Uh, and it's Cows Week and it's a, it's a, it's, it's a very, very famous regatta. And I wish you the very, very best of luck. Cause it's a, it's a kind of a mecca for, for sailing cows, most definitely. So.

• 21:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's gonna be, you know, Cows Week is a huge week in the sailing world. And for the F50 to be there on the 10th and 11th of August, it's gonna be fantastic. We're really looking forward to it.

• 21:08Gary O'Reilly?

  Wish you the best of luck.

• 21:09Chuck Nice?

  Hey, wishing you all the best, man.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

• 21:13Chuck Nice?

  You got it.

• 21:14Gary O'Reilly?

  Thanks to Hans. If you haven't seen SailGP, change that as soon as you possibly can. After you've listened to the whole podcast, we are going to take a break. When we come back, we have Phil Crain. Now, he's performance analyst. So the person that gets the data, sends the data back and gives the guys everything they need to know, particularly people like Hans, who's flight controller. It's him. So if you're interested and had your appetite whetted, we will have Chuck, the fifth Beatle.

• 21:43Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 21:44Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, so George Martin will be coming back.

• 21:46Chuck Nice?

  Or Little Richard.

• 21:47Gary O'Reilly?

  Or Little Richard, or whoever you wish. As long as that person's Phil Crain.

• 21:51Chuck Nice?

  There's so many fifth Beatles.

• 21:52Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes. I'm the fifth Beatle. I'm Spartacus. Right, we're going to take that break. We'll be back shortly.

• 22:04Chuck Nice?

  Is your wall empty? Welcome to the club. Does it need to be covered in science? StarTalk is here to help. Go to starTalkRadio.net/store and choose between our Let's Make America Smart Again poster or our StarTalk Universe poster. Get yours now at starTalkRadio.net/store.

• 22:27Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome back to Playing with Science and our SailGP episode. Now, we've spoken to Hans Henken and I think you'll agree with me, what a fabulous, fabulous insight into what it takes to be in control of an F-50 catamaran.

• 22:42Chuck Nice?

  Flying on the water.

• 22:43Gary O'Reilly?

  Flying the boat.

• 22:44Chuck Nice?

  Actually flying under the water and over the water.

• 22:47Gary O'Reilly?

  Don't confuse me.

• 22:48Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 22:50Gary O'Reilly?

  But in there is an awful lot of strategy and someone who is part of that strategy is analyst Phil Crain, who is performance analyst. So Phil, welcome to Playing with Science, sir.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me.

• 23:05Gary O'Reilly?

  You're welcome. So just, you're kind of like, we've described you as the fifth Beatle. I hope you don't mind that analogy. But how are you intricately involved in the race performance?

• 23:20Speaker 03

  Sure, so when the guys are out there racing or when they're practicing, I'm able to sit on shore and get live telemetry sent to me, both from our team and from all the other teams. So if the guys have a question as to why someone's beating them, I can help them answer it and we can do it almost immediately.

• 23:35Gary O'Reilly?

  You get the other guy's data as well?

• 23:38Chuck Nice?

  Well, the other guy's getting his data too.

• 23:39Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 23:40Chuck Nice?

  So everybody gets everybody's data.

• 23:42Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, I know, but it's interesting that from there, you're almost playing three-dimensional chess. You can now analyze all the other aspects and maybe it's another layer to your strategy.

• 23:54Speaker 03

  Absolutely, yeah, it's pretty unique to SailGP that we can see what everyone else is doing. It really levels the playing field and it makes it easy for teams that are less experienced to catch up quickly and keep the racing really tight.

• 24:05Chuck Nice?

  Well, it also is a great display of the skill of those who are in the boat if all factors are equal all across the board, you know?

• 24:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely, yeah, no, it's a true test of the athletes.

• 24:20Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 24:20Gary O'Reilly?

  What kind of telemetrics are we talking about here?

• 24:24Speaker 03

  Oh, everything, so we have over 1,200 channels of data.

• 24:28Chuck Nice?

  Jesus.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  Sent to us.

• 24:30Chuck Nice?

  Oh, my God.

• 24:31Gary O'Reilly?

  And Hans was quite flippant about, "Yes, I'm able to assimilate the information that's coming at me." So you can't just data dump on your flight controller. You've got to be selective, surely, or not?

• 24:44Speaker 03

  Absolutely, yeah, you know, I could give them way more than they could process. We typically, you know, try to pick out a few key things that we may be focusing on in that day or on that race and talk about those because there are so many different things you could focus on. You could get overwhelmed very easily.

• 25:00Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, with all those hundreds of data points, can you give us some of what you would consider most critical? I mean, circumstances are going to dictate that that will change. But are there any that you would look at from race to race and say, "All right, here are some critical keys that I have got to focus on"?

• 25:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, so one thing that we look at a lot is the wing profile. So we can, we have these rigid carbon fiber wings in place of a sail.

• 25:29Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 25:30Speaker 03

  And you can control the, control the shape of them very accurately. So you can adjust the camber and the twist and all the teams do that a little bit differently. And that's a big driver that, you know, that's where all your power is coming from. So you're trying to compare between the teams and see, you know, who has the best wing profile for that day in those wind conditions is a big thing from race to race. Another thing is the, what we call the rudder average, which controls the pitch of the boat. So how bow up or bow down you are. And that's another thing that we look at very consistently across the fleet.

• 26:01Chuck Nice?

  Wow. So what, has there ever been a time when you're looking at just, let's just take those two data points and then maybe, you know, some environmental data points at the same time. And you look at another team and say, oh my God, look at what they're doing. Are you able to then in real time make the adjustment to your team? Or is it something that you wouldn't do because you're focused on perhaps that that might work for them, but it won't work for you?

• 26:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, it depends. You know, you have to make the call and that's something the coach and I talk about a lot is, you know, that these guys are doing something differently, but do we want to emulate it or not? You know, are we happy with where we are?

• 26:42Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 26:43Speaker 03

  But it's good to, you know, feed them the information and have everyone as a team kind of discuss that. And, you know, there was an instance in San Francisco, we were just, you know, practicing and doing lineups with, with another team. And they had, you know, I mentioned the, the term rudder average. They had a different rudder average than we did. They were going faster, you know, fed that information back to them, you know, just a few seconds after they finished that lineup. And they went and lined up with them again after changing to the same setting and were faster at the same speed. So we can make very quick changes if we want to.

• 27:12Chuck Nice?

  Nice.

• 27:13Gary O'Reilly?

  It's, it's really, yeah. But it just shows you the, the level of complexity we are operating at in this particular sport. It is, I mean, as you said, you've got to be selective about what you bring forward because in the end, the flight controller's got to be aware of the climatic situation around them. There was a lot in the New York race, I heard the commentators talk regularly about puffs and downward pressure. Now that sounded as if that was something quite unique to this particular race.

• 27:43Speaker 03

  Yes, New York was probably the most challenging conditions we're going to see on the whole tour. And it is pretty unique. You get puffs going around the buildings on the Hudson River, coming from completely different directions so that the wind will kind of wrap around one side of those buildings and wrap around the other. And you could see 80-degree, 90-degree wind shifts and massive changes in the pressure. So in particular, in that venue, the guys really need to keep their head out of the boat, looking, because you can see on the water when a puff is coming and looking for those. And that's critical in a place like that.

• 28:16Chuck Nice?

  Wow. So, you know, in New York, I read that you guys clocked over an hour of out-of-water flying time. How do you process that information and then take that and improve the team so that when you're not in those conditions, you might be able to replicate it? Because I would assume, and I may be wrong, I would assume that the goal is to stay out of the water as much as possible, to do as much flying as you can. Am I right?

• 28:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. So when you're out of the water, you're minimizing drag, you just have those hydrofoils in there, and that's the fastest that you'll be, you won't be flying around the course all the time. And so, you know, we can look at a day like that day and figure out, in particular, some maneuvers that you want to look at, because those are the areas that you are most likely to drop off your foils. So if you're going in a straight line, it's pretty easy. When you're maneuvering, making a turn, it's hard to stay on those foils. So, you know, we look at things like the turn rate, the different settings in the computer, you know, how the guys actually on the boat are handing off control of the boat, and, you know, try and figure out what was working that day and figure out how we can replicate it in other locations.

• 29:27Chuck Nice?

  Now, does every team have a data analyst? Because, or I know Team USA does, but does every team have a person like you on shore relaying information, processing information? Because that extra set of eyes has got to be invaluable. I would see every team having to do this.

• 29:47Speaker 03

  At the moment, not every team does. I think more and more, you're going to see all the teams doing it. But USA is one of the first to identify that as an area that's very important.

• 29:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Makes sense.

• 29:58Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 29:59Gary O'Reilly?

  I have to ask you, you've got something like a 24-meter-high wing.

• 30:04Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 30:04Gary O'Reilly?

  A fixed wing. And we spoke to Hans just a minute ago, and we sort of related Formula One motor racing with the F50 and how SailGP is going and operating.

• 30:19Gary O'Reilly?

  Motor racing, lowest center of gravity you can possibly get, yet you've got a 24-meter-high fixed wing.

• 30:26Chuck Nice?

  You guys are working with essentially a low center of gravity.

• 30:31Gary O'Reilly?

  So how have you come to terms with that in technical terms to be able to still ensure that you do what you need to do with such a thing going on?

• 30:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, the wing is necessary indeed to be that tall. You get more air, the wind's moving faster as it's aloft. And they have tried very hard to minimize the weight of loft, so it's a completely carbon-fiber skeleton with just some shrink wrap over it. So for what it is, it's very light. But it is still quite tough to balance the boat, and that's just like any sailboat. But these sailboats in particular are balancing just on one very small point because they're up in foil. They're extippy, if you will.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  And yeah, it takes the best sailors in the world to keep them upright all the time. And as we saw in the New York event, some people don't keep it upright all the time.

• 31:20Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, you're referring to the Brits. And we've already discussed this with Hans. That was a generous offer from the Brits to take themselves out of the equation to allow others to win. I hope you're aware of that.

• 31:31Chuck Nice?

  They're quite sporting.

• 31:32Gary O'Reilly?

  It's very sporting.

• 31:33Speaker 03

  They're nice guys.

• 31:34Gary O'Reilly?

  Aren't they? Wonderful.

• 31:37Chuck Nice?

  How do you know what data is just useful and what data is undeniable? Because Hans told us, okay, like, a lot of this is my intuition. It's my sailing knowledge, you know? So how do you go to somebody like Hans, or how do you go to a helmsman and you say, "Look, man, here's what the data is saying, and I know it might feel like it's the wrong thing to do, but we gotta do it like this."

• 32:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it's great that we have so much data to go by because you can really get good answers to those questions of what is faster around the racetrack. And one metric that we use is called V M G or velocity made good.

• 32:21Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 32:22Speaker 03

  So that's, you know, you can't sail directly upwind or directly downwind in a sailboat. So that's a component of your velocity that's going upwind or downwind. And the books, that's the critical thing right there. So if we compare two teams and say, you know, this is the big difference between us in our setup and their V M G is better, you can put hard numbers on that and say, you know, we need to try that.

• 32:43Chuck Nice?

  Interesting.

• 32:44Gary O'Reilly?

  It is. So let's go to the simulator that's based in London. And once the guys have finished competing in races, they generally assemble there and work on a simulator. And am I right in that you've designed this yourself or are you part of a team?

• 33:02Speaker 03

  I'm part of a team that's worked on designing it. It's been a huge project and a great success. Yes.

• 33:09Gary O'Reilly?

  I mean, how difficult has it been? I mean, we're talking about world-class sailors here, but how difficult has it been for them to learn what is basically a brand-new craft?

• 33:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, these are the most technically advanced boats sailing in the world right now. And it's really important to have something like the simulator out there because the control systems are so complicated as well. But yeah, for them to come and learn in the simulator and capsize that boat as many times as they like, they can try different positions, try all kinds of different configurations, and they can do that all in the simulator with no risk. First off, you start and just kind of throw the guys in there and let them get a feel for it. It is just like a real boat.

• 33:50Gary O'Reilly?

  Like a real boat.

• 33:51Speaker 03

  It's realistic enough. Yeah, the guys can feel it just like they would feel a real boat and try and balance it just like you would balance a real boat.

• 33:57Chuck Nice?

  Gotcha, gotcha. So now, speaking of that, is there a time where you will have enough data points?

• 34:05Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes.

• 34:06Chuck Nice?

  Where you can make your whole thing predictive so that you're actually, you know, anticipating from the data what may happen because you've been in New York enough times, you know that there are parameters that are going to pretty much dictate the way the race is going to go and the conditions, and so boom, you would be able to predict.

• 34:34Speaker 03

  New York would be a pretty tough one. Of all the venues, that would be the toughest to sort of predict the weather and how the boats might line up. San Francisco venue that we went to previously, that would be much easier. It's relatively consistent. We gathered very good data on the wind conditions and the current conditions there. So theoretically in the future, you know, we could have a much better, better current model, better wind model and predict, say, which side of the race course might have better wind and would help you win the race.

• 35:02Gary O'Reilly?

  What I find interesting is, and Chuck's touched on this, we have identical boats for each team.

• 35:09Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:10Gary O'Reilly?

  The thing that makes them different will be the human involvement, the crew, the helmsman, the flight controller. And thinking about that, you've got five crew members, you've got a weight limit, there's got to be a strategy involved in there. You know, your grinders are going to have to be power to weight ratio. You've got to have people like that. Are you balancing out, quite literally, how you structure a team?

• 35:35Chuck Nice?

  Wow, yeah.

• 35:36Speaker 03

  I mean, the athletes are the critical component here. And that's why we have a level playing field, as you say, in most any other aspects. What makes the difference is the quality of the athletes. And sure, it's very important to have extremely strong grinders who train regularly and they really, you know, without them, the boat wouldn't go. At the same time, it's important to have, you know, extremely skilled flight controllers and wing turners to keep that boat stable. It's all, you know, one big team right there. And yeah, it's putting together the right team is critical.

• 36:08Chuck Nice?

  Hey, speaking of teams and the fact that everybody has a level playing field, does everybody get to use your simulator?

• 36:16Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. They're all, all the teams come, use the simulator. It's open to everyone.

• 36:22Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 36:23Speaker 03

  And all the teams have come and they've all said how realistic it is and they'll be coming back, especially if they need to train new crews. But even in between events, they all come and they give very limited time on the real boats.

• 36:35Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 36:36Speaker 03

  On the water. So they have to supplement it with the simulator.

• 36:39Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 36:40Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, here we go, because you're probably the person to answer this question. How much more do you think these crews can get out of with your help in terms of performance for the F-50?

• 36:57Speaker 03

  It's, yeah, it's hard to quantify it, but I think we could very easily see USA, you know, competing for the top spot in the league.

• 37:03Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh.

• 37:04Speaker 03

  They need, you know, they need a little bit more time and I think we can, we've gathered good data so far and with a little bit, um, yeah, I think we have the right sailors there to, uh, to make that happen.

• 37:17Gary O'Reilly?

  Nice. Well, we're looking forward to that day. That is for sure. Yeah. And next up, Cows in England. Cows. Cows, spelt with an E. Cows. Cows, yes. I knew that word entertained. The cows. It's on the Isle of Wight. It's very famous. Don't mock it. Send the Queen round with her corgis. Why, why is this, why is, why is Cows such a famous sailing place? It's, it's historically for however many years been the week where everybody that sails on the open ocean. Anybody who's, anybody who sails goes to Cows. You bet. That's why the guys are there. Not the cows. The cows. It's not the cows. You, you can, you can wave goodbye to us after this interview. I'm still gonna have to work with it. It's the way of life, my friend.

• 38:01Gary O'Reilly?

  I can't wait to go to the cows. Okay. And we, the US team, all the very best in Cows because yeah, it's a fab, it'd be a fabulous place for you to notch up a success. All right, Phil?

• 38:14Speaker 03

  Thank you very much.

• 38:15Gary O'Reilly?

  You're welcome. You are welcome. Thank you. Phil Crain there, the performance analyst for Team USA in SailGP. Yeah, man. Grand Prix sailing. Yeah, but it's a brand new sport with brand new vessels. As he said, these are cutting edge. There's nothing more, there is not a more technical, advanced sailing craft out there. Now, if you're interested, it's sailgp.com. Yeah. But don't go there till you've listened to the whole show. That's right. It won't be long now. You'll have your chance. Yes. Um, I mean, by all means, there's Japan, China, Australia, the Brits, the French, and of course. The USA. And so you've got plenty of choice for a team to support, but I'm guessing you'll go with USA.

• 38:58Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 38:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Which is understandable.

• 38:59Chuck Nice?

  The cool thing about it is when you watch these teams out on the water, it's such a great thing to see that you don't even care. It's like you're just, you're just so happy to be watching it. That, you know, you want, yeah, of course I want a Team USA to win, but like when Japan won, I didn't care. I was just like, these guys are rocking.

• 39:18Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 39:19Chuck Nice?

  Like all these guys are cool.

• 39:20Gary O'Reilly?

  And once you see it, you'll realise why Chuck and I are so excited about this sport. It really is an awesome, awesome sport. And we wish them, this is their debut season, so we wish them the very best of luck for everything coming forward. And I think Phil there was a little bit understated about as how much more they can get out of it. Because every craft is identical.

• 39:39Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 39:39Gary O'Reilly?

  So it has to be down to the ability of the crew. And as we've touched on already, and Hans there, a little bit modest, he's world class. He is a world class sailor.

• 39:50Chuck Nice?

  Yes, he is.

• 39:50Gary O'Reilly?

  And he and others around this event are exactly in that category. So when you talk about them being athletes, that's where we are. We are dealing with world class athletes and sailors. We wish them the very best of luck. Chuck?

• 40:03Chuck Nice?

  That's our time. It's time for us to sail away.

• 40:06Gary O'Reilly?

  I don't know whether there's a sunset involved in that or not, but anyway, I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 40:11Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 40:12Gary O'Reilly?

  This has been Playing with Science, our Sail GP Special. And we've enjoyed your company and look forward to it in the very near future.

• 40:33Chuck Nice?

  Wish you could listen to StarTalk commercial free. Join StarTalk on Patreon for as little as $5 per month and the ads will disappear. Learn more at patreon.com/starTalkRadio.