Why 'Theo of Golden' Has Touched Millions of Readers with Allen Levi and Oprah

BUY THE BOOK! Theo of Golden by Allen Levi https://amzn.to/3Ru87sx What began as a quietly self-published novel, Theo of Golden by Allen Levi, has become a literary phenomenon. First introduced in 2023 with no agent or marketing campaign the book built a devoted grassroots following through word of mouth. It eventually gained national attention, secured a bonafide publisher and become a #1 New York Times bestseller. In this conversation Oprah discusses with Allen Levi the tender, life-affirming story about a mysterious old man who arrives in the small town of Golden who transforms lives by gifting portraits to the locals and helping them feel seen. Allen reflects on what it means to live a life of love, to find hope and beauty in everyday life and to recognize the goodness in all of us. Fans of the novel, whose lives have been moved by this book, including country singer-songwriter Walker Hayes, record producer Claude Kelly and designer and TV host Tamara Day join the conversation. Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Strangers would stop and ask me, hey, Oprah, have you read The Old Golden? It's your kind of book. The book started off self-published by a first-time author with no publicity or a marketing campaign to then topping the New York Times Bestseller list.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  There was no deadline, no editor, no writing coach, no publisher, no agent.

• 0:22Oprah Winfrey?

  This is unbelievable.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  I cried a lot as I wrote this book.

• 0:26Oprah Winfrey?

  You did?

• 0:27Speaker 01

  And fell in love with the characters because they all remind me of someone I actually know. This man could love lots of people unlike himself. I wonder if I could do the same thing.

• 0:37Oprah Winfrey?

  That's exactly what happened to me.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  For anything to be good, truly good, there must be love in it. It's the truth.

• 0:43Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  I think that if we accept that premise as a rule for life.

• 0:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  We have to figure out, okay, what is love? And then how do we live it out? And I think that the novel, for me, as I look at it now, was maybe an attempt on my part to answer those questions. What does it look like to live a life of love?

• 1:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Hi, everybody. I'm so glad to be here with you on the Oprah Podcast. Welcome to my front porch. So many people were telling me, so many people were telling me about this book. People I knew, people I didn't know. Strangers would stop and ask me, hey, Oprah, have you read The Old Golden? It's your kind of book. And it turns out, it actually is my kind of book. This book quietly became what the New York Times calls a word-of-mouth smash hit. The book started off self-published by a first-time author with no publicity or a marketing campaign to then topping the New York Times Bestseller list. It is my great pleasure to welcome the author,

• 1:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Allen Levi, to my front porch.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  And Allen Levi is delighted and honored to be here. Thank you, Oprah. I could never have dreamt in a thousand years that this could happen.

• 1:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, I so wanted to talk to you about this beautiful book because it is a balm of good, a balm of good feelings for readers.

• 2:06Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:06Oprah Winfrey?

  And I feel really honored to be able to sit here with you on my porch.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Well, thank you.

• 2:11Oprah Winfrey?

  And talk to you. So you're a former musician, I hear?

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Or you are still a musician?

• 2:16Speaker 01

  I piddle, I piddle. Yeah, the book thing has taken over my life the last couple of years.

• 2:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  But I was a traveling musician for 15 or 20 years.

• 2:23Oprah Winfrey?

  And you were an attorney?

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Was an attorney for 13 years.

• 2:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Was a judge for a couple of years.

• 2:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Which of those things did you like the most?

• 2:32Speaker 01

  You know, I liked something about all of the music. I really love, I love writing songs, still do, even though I've not done it much lately.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  But I really love the book thing.

• 2:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, you love the book thing.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  I love the book thing. And it's a surprise to me because it takes so long to write a book.

• 2:55Oprah Winfrey?

  First of all, can we just say this, Allen? Can you believe yourself right now? Can you believe the incredible, I mean, incredible and all that that word means? Appeal that this book has had for readers around the world?

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:13Oprah Winfrey?

  I mean, in your wildest, wildest, wildest dreams, did you imagine the outcome of the success of Theo of Golden?

• 3:20Speaker 01

  Never, ever. You know the story. I mean, it was never supposed to be published.

• 3:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, I know the story, but they don't know the story.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Can I share the story?

• 3:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Share the story.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I had just finished a short stint as a judge. I didn't know what I would do next. I didn't want to travel again as a musician. I was kind of tired of that. And I just happened to walk into a coffee shop with which I was very familiar. And there were portraits on the wall, 92 portraits, all done by a dear friend of mine, Gary Pound.

• 3:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Dr. Gary Pound has been a friend of Allen's for nearly four decades. He is an artist from Columbus, Georgia, well-known for his portraits, his landscapes and illustrations. Fountain City Coffee in Columbus, Georgia, is the beloved home for Gary's Coffee Shop series of portraits that served as one of the inspirations for Allen's novel, Theo of Golden.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  And I was looking at the portraits and I thought, wouldn't it be fun to buy all of these one at a time and give them to the people portrayed in the frames? So I bought four of them. I took them home and began to kind of ruminate on the faces. What is the story that that face tells? And so I wrote some scenes where I was giving the portrait to someone. And then.

• 4:32Oprah Winfrey?

  So you're Theo?

• 4:33Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let me disabuse you of that quickly. Theo is who I would like to be.

• 4:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  But, but I could tell there's a story here.

• 4:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, so we're not going to give, of course, the plot away to you all. My hope is that you all will buy and read this book if you haven't already, Theo of Golden. It's going to make you feel really good about yourself, better about your own life, and make you notice a lot of other people's lives. On its surface, though, the story follows an elderly man named Theo who arrives in a small southern city. And then he begins buying the pencil portraits, just like Allen originally did, of local residents, one by one, and returning them to the people that they depict. And this simple act then becomes an extraordinary catalyst for like connection and transformation. First of all, the four that you bought, did you ever contact those people?

• 5:27Speaker 01

  I did not.

• 5:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I still don't know who they are, except for one, the Ellen character in the book. And I've met her just recently. She is a delightful, delightful person. But I don't know the others.

• 5:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Had you been writing all along? I know you're a musician.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:43Oprah Winfrey?

  You wrote songs, but had you been writing stories?

• 5:46Speaker 01

  No stories, no stories. Yeah, a lot of times to set up songs in concert.

• 5:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  I would write little vignettes that I might share between songs, you know.

• 5:53Oprah Winfrey?

  But how did you know you could write?

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Um, I didn't. And so this was a personal challenge. Could I write at all? And did I have the stamina or the muscle to sit still long enough to do a piece of long fiction? And so I started writing this story with no idea of what the plot was going to be, who the characters would be. Theo didn't come until, really, I had been writing for a while.

• 6:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  I was trying to figure out, how do I tie these bestows, these giftings of the portraits together? So it took me two or three years to do it. I would write off and on. Since there was no deadline, no editor, no writing coach, no publisher, no agent, I was free to do it at whatever pace I wanted to work at. So I did it off and on. And when I finally finished it, I patted myself on the back. I'm capable of writing a piece of long fiction, and was done with it. But I've got five friends with whom I spend a long weekend every year. These are old college friends. And they knew I was working on a manuscript of some kind. And they said, may we read it? And I was reluctant, but I said, yeah, you can read it, but it, it may not be worth your time. They read it, they liked it.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  They said, we think you should do something with it. And I trusted and still trust their judgment much more than my own. So I said, okay, we'll try to do something.

• 7:05Oprah Winfrey?

  And so then how did you find a publisher?

• 7:07Speaker 01

  I didn't.

• 7:07Oprah Winfrey?

  You didn't?

• 7:08Speaker 01

  I didn't. I was, I was talking with a niece of mine, Erin, who works with me still. I love the young woman. And she was looking for a job change. And I had finished the book. I've always been really, really poor at self-promotion or marketing. I was awful at it as a musician. But I said, Erin, here's what we will do. I have written the book. You're going to do everything else. You've got to figure out graphic design. You've got to figure out how we're going to market it. And she went to work. And I tightened up the manuscript a bit. Again, I didn't have anyone to help me.

• 7:39Oprah Winfrey?

  You didn't have an editor?

• 7:40Speaker 01

  I didn't have an editor. And so I.

• 7:42Oprah Winfrey?

  This is unbelievable.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  I stumbled forward all through the process, Oprah, and it was so daunting to me. But I honestly had no expectation. We would sell a copy, much less a lot of copies. But Erin and I just kind of figured it out. And she put it up online. And the kindness of strangers and the favor of God has gotten us where we are.

• 8:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, so you sold what, several thousand copies in the beginning, I heard?

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  So we started in November of '23. And we sold 3,000.

• 8:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  In that, that first month or two. And I would have been happy to retire the project at that point. But people kept sharing it and sales kept increasing. So by the middle of last year, sales were kind of impressive. And Erin and I were gobsmacked and overjoyed and shocked. And then we started getting calls from people in the business who said, can we take your book and do something with it?

• 8:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  There we go.

• 8:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, so you go from self-publishing with Erin to figuring out what the cover is with Erin, doing all that on your own. Then you get the call, you go with a publisher, and then you get the call that you're on the list that everybody, you know, dreams of as an author.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:53Oprah Winfrey?

  That, you know, seasoned authors wait for that Wednesday call to see if they made the list. What did you think when you got the call? Where were you when you got the call? It's your New York Times number one bestselling book.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  I was putting up birdhouses in the pasture and in front of my home, which is one of my favorite things to do and one of my favorite places to be. The book had started getting traction. It was a shock.

• 9:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  And we were delighted with that. But yeah, the team called and congratulated me and Erin on the sales. And so we shouted and, and hung up. And I returned to hanging bluebird houses.

• 9:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay. You came up with this idea for your character, Theo. And he begins buying the pencil portraits, one by one, and returning them to the people that they depict. What was it about those quiet, relational moments, the active giving back someone's own portrait, the bestowals, as you call them, that allowed us to see another part of what it means to be human?

• 9:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Keep in mind, Oprah, that when I was writing this, I mean, the world was and continues to be just in a place of real division and mean-spiritedness. That's my interpretation of it.

• 10:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  And it felt like a story of kindness might serve us well. Again, I was not writing for an audience. But I did have in mind, if someone were to read this manuscript, what might I like them to take from it? So I was trying to appeal to the better angels of our nature. And who doesn't like to be told that there is something really wonderful about their life? And not in a superficial or pretentious sort of way. And the old man seemed to have a real superpower at doing that.

• 10:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  And every time he gave a portrait, before he actually put it in their hands, he would say, "This is who I see in this face."

• 10:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, and it allowed people to think of themselves in a way that they hadn't before.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:50Oprah Winfrey?

  And you describe Theo of Golden as being like a story, you say, of creative generosity.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, of growing old well, of bearing grief. I just love that. Bearing grief gracefully, building friendships through, you know, sharing stories, right? All of that. And a call to live lives of little, nameless, unremembered acts. That's what you say, of kindness and love.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 11:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you ever, Alan, surprise yourself with how tender and powerful the themes became in this story?

• 11:24Speaker 01

  I did, I did, constantly. And I'm not an easy weeper.

• 11:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  But I cried a lot as I wrote this book.

• 11:32Oprah Winfrey?

  You did.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  And fell in love with the characters because they all remind me of someone I actually know.

• 11:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Really?

• 11:37Speaker 01

  I can't say that I modeled any of the characters on a particular person. But particularly Theo reminded me of my brother, who died a few years ago. He's younger than me, but he was my hero in life, my best friend, my mentor in so many things, my spiritual guide. And I realize now, maybe in hindsight, that I was channeling my brother's life into the old man. But I really fell in love with the characters, and that surprised me a lot.

• 12:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, and I heard that when you started writing the story, Theo of Golden, which I hope you all get, when you started writing the story, it wasn't fully formed.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  That's right. It was not even partially formed.

• 12:18Oprah Winfrey?

  And you just were hoping something would bubble up?

• 12:21Speaker 01

  That's right. Have you not heard that before?

• 12:23Oprah Winfrey?

  I heard it, yeah.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  It doesn't work.

• 12:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  It didn't work for me.

• 12:26Oprah Winfrey?

  It didn't work.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Oh, I worked and worked and worked, and nothing bubbled up. I just could not, I could not get a story to form. But I just stayed with it. And by the time I had finished what I think now has become the book, there were lots of sections that needed to be cut. So I took those out. I think I edited.

• 12:44Oprah Winfrey?

  How did you know? You didn't have an editor?

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was pure instinct. And so I took probably 100 pages of text out of the book and just hoped that what was left behind would constitute a story.

• 12:55Oprah Winfrey?

  How did you know then, like, we're certainly not going to go give the ending away. When did you know that it was going to be that ending?

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Pretty early on. Once I realized I don't have a story, and then started trying to conjure up something of a narrative, you know, a narrative arc. I had a little more definition within which to work.

• 13:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  But once, once I made the choice, okay, this is going to kind of be the flow of the story, then the ending came real, real quickly.

• 13:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, I, like you, I've known for a long time that we're all spiritually connected.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 13:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, to the energy of all creation, that I'm a part of it, and it's a part of me. And you write in the book, you say, "I fear we own all of the world's hurt together." That line stuck with me. And later you say, "Was there, after all, one big river that flowed across the earth?" You know, the word river is mentioned so many times in this book. My team says, "The word river is mentioned 65 times in the book."

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 13:56Oprah Winfrey?

  What is it about water and its flow that appeals to you? What is it about the river?

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the river is prominent. It actually almost takes the place of a character itself.

• 14:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, Golden is its own character.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 14:11Oprah Winfrey?

  The city of Golden is its own character.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  And it's on a river. I call it the Oxbow River. And then the Douro River in Portugal.

• 14:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Theo was a Portuguese man, grew up on the river. I think river as metaphor for so many things is a powerful image for all of us. The continuity of it, the depth of it, the purity of it, if it's allowed to run its course. And then again, just the connectedness of it. The fact that some of the water from the Douro River might have made its way across the ocean and up the Chattahoochee River to Golden to plant a seed on the bank of the river, something. But the idea of connectedness that water is on so many levels is, I think, why I chose that to be a prominent theme.

• 14:51Oprah Winfrey?

  You know, when I have discussed this book with friends, we all agree that the gift is not the portraits themselves, all right? That the real, the portraits themselves, that's nice.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:03Oprah Winfrey?

  But the real bestowal is the idea that Theo sits with each person, and each person is truly seen.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, they are seen. Something that I think everybody is yearning for. I mean, that's one of the big lessons I learned from the Oprah Show. You know, after talking to so many guests, I could see that there was this thread, that what everybody is looking for is to know, "Did you hear me and did you see me?

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:30Oprah Winfrey?

  And did what I say matter?" How did you come to this, to learn that that's what every person was looking for? Because no matter who Theo sits with, they come away with feeling seen and also having a different way of seeing themselves.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I think, Oprah, it's just the fruit of the spirit. I love people.

• 15:51Oprah Winfrey?

  It's the fruit of the spirit.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  It's the fruit of the spirit, you know, to love people. And, and I live in a very small community. I know a lot of the people in my community, but I love to hear people's stories. And to quote your book, "What Happened to You?"

• 16:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  People, people, I think, want to be seen. They want to be vulnerable with someone they can trust.

• 16:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  And I think just growing up around good talkers myself and being heard and seen by people who I love well, maybe inspired me to, to give that skill set to the old man and see what he could make of it.

• 16:25Oprah Winfrey?

  You know, of course, since I've been talking to people for so many years, I can honestly say that I have always recognized that for everybody who's watched our show, your story matters. But it's something about how quietly, how gently, and how deeply you tell this story. And it's something about how Theo's quiet, calming, yet warm dignity that actually made me, in my own life, more cognizant, more thoughtful about truly seeing other people. I want to know, how did your own life experiences, your time as a musician, your time as a lawyer, your time as a traveler, your time as a judge, shape the way you wrote Theo's generosity?

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think maybe on a, on a broader spectrum. I think all of my work has made me attentive. Part of it because I had to be.

• 17:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, interesting.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  If you get a case ready for trial, you better be real attentive to details.

• 17:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  As a songwriter, I woke up most days looking for something to write about, which meant I had to be attentive to possible subject matter. And then I think, again, just having a love for people, that's, that's a part of my faith. Love my neighbor as myself. Love God with heart, soul, mind, and strength in my neighbor. But being attentive to the fact that everyone has a story to tell, having time, because I live in a small town, maybe, that I can, can move at a somewhat slower pace. And then just living with an adorational attentiveness to what's going on around me.

• 17:54Oprah Winfrey?

  One of the things that makes the book so relatable, I think, is its mystery. Because we're all wondering along with the folks in town, "Who is this guy? He isn't famous. Who is he? What, what, what do you know about this guy? Was it a choice to make him a stranger?"

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Yes, very definitely.

• 18:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  I wanted something that would pull the reader forward because it's a slow-moving book. Most of the action in the story takes place on a bench.

• 18:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  And it's just people talking.

• 18:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, and you're waiting to see who's going to show up on that bench and if they're going to show up.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Right. And so I was thinking, how do I keep the reader engaged? And this, this aspect of secrecy about Theo, I thought, might, might just keep people involved in.

• 18:36Oprah Winfrey?

  How you knew how to do this, Alan? I'm just fascinated.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  It might be because I read a lot.

• 18:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, okay.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  I love, I love to read. I'm not a very good reader. I read slowly. My retention is awful. I complicate both of those traits by reading too many books at the same time. But I am an avid reader, and I'm a delighted reader. I love to read. And I think maybe just.

• 18:57Oprah Winfrey?

  I know, you sent me this beautiful letter saying that you've chosen a lot of books by the three words Oprah's Book Club.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  I have indeed.

• 19:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  I really have. And some of the books that, that have that.

• 19:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Oprah's Book Club?

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Oprah's Book Club seal on it have been mind-stretching for me. I love the fact that you challenge readers. They are not easy reads.

• 19:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, not all of them are, no. Yeah, yeah. Not intended to. They're, they're, every book I choose is meant to get you to think more deeply about yourself, your own life. Some of them are more fun, more lighthearted than others. But everything is chosen with myself and the reader in mind. I read it thinking, okay, can I get a million other people to like this?

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Well, well done. It, it works.

• 19:40Oprah Winfrey?

  It works.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  But I think, I think that reading a lot, just by osmosis, the style of writing, maybe that I'm gravitating toward, is just the result of reading other really good writers. I hope I become one someday.

• 19:53Oprah Winfrey?

  How did, well, listen, don't you think you are, once you're on the bestsellers list, and all these people are buying your books and talking about it?

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's nice.

• 20:01Oprah Winfrey?

  That's nice?

• 20:01Speaker 01

  That's nice, and it's very affirming. I don't at all diminish that. I'm, I'm more honored than I can begin to say. The fact that I'm sitting with you is, is kind of the crown jewel. But, yeah, so that is very affirming. But I know that there's a lot that I can improve in the way that I write.

• 20:18Oprah Winfrey?

  I thank you for that. I thank you for honoring me with your words. There is this sprawling cast of characters in Theo of Golden. You give them all complete, complex backstories with just a small amount of words. So how did each one appear to you?

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Early on, once I figured out, okay, this is going to be a story. And I want the main character to be someone who has an expansive

• 20:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  ability to engage with with people unlike himself. I wanted each of those characters to bring something different out of Theo. And so for him to to be able to engage so affectionately with a woman who was unhoused, who had had some real hardship in her life, that made him a character, I think, with a large heart, that he could engage with a school maintenance man.

• 21:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  That he could talk to a little boy who had physical challenges.

• 21:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Uh, that he would talk to a newspaper reporter who had been abandoned by a father and had really, really awful images of herself in her mind. Uh, I wanted those, I wanted all of those characters to bring something else out of Theo and and make us leave the reading experience with the with the the clear image. This man could love lots of people unlike himself. I wonder if I could do the same thing.

• 21:36Oprah Winfrey?

  That's exactly what happened to me.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 21:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  You do that, Oprah.

• 21:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, but it just enhanced it. It it tightened it. It intensified it in a way that that I hadn't. It made me pay. It made me more attentive is what it did.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 21:50Oprah Winfrey?

  It made me more attentive.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Just to be clear, me too.

• 21:53Oprah Winfrey?

  It did did the same thing for you writing it? Yeah.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And and when I say that Theo is an aspirational character to me, I really mean it. I really hope that I will be someone like Theo in the book.

• 22:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Like Theo.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, really.

• 22:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, social media, y'all, is just a buzz about Theo of Golden. Not only is it a bestseller, but everybody's talking about this book. One fan is country singer songwriter Walker Hayes. And you know him from his number one hit song Fancy Like. And he is joining us from his home in Tennessee. Hi, Walker. I hear this novel had a huge impact on you. How so?

• 22:28Speaker 02

  Unbelievable, life changing. Oprah, thanks for having me. Alan, it's an honor.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  It's been.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  I I could go on and on for days, my man. Uh, I felt adopted by this book. I truly did. I Theo, Theo to me is an adopter, um, kind of like God is, you know, for for all of us. And it made me want to adopt every single person I meet. My, it made me want to adopt my wife, my kids. It just, it changed me instantly. And and, uh, I promise you, man, I've sold you a thousand copies.

• 23:05Speaker 02

  I'm gonna sell you more and more, my man. I'm I'm blown away by this book.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Well, thank you.

• 23:10Oprah Winfrey?

  How did you come to it? How did it come to you? Was it word of mouth? Somebody said you should read it like they did me? Yeah.

• 23:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. My niece, my niece texted me and said, this book, uh, just reminds me of you of something you need, you need to read. And, uh, honestly, I'm not the the most, you know, the more people push something on me, uh, the less likely I am to dive in.

• 23:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know why, but man, I I I got a copy. My mom and my sister actually gave me a a physical copy. And and I, man, I I wept, I laughed, uh, I smiled. I just, you you did a really great job. And I'm telling you, man, the Lord speaks through people through this book that he he actually does.

• 23:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  Walker, I have binged on your music the last few weeks.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  And I have, I have wondered, where does this guy get the ability to write lyrics the way that he writes? I just assumed that you are a verbivore. You read all the time, maybe not, but I cannot tell you what a wonderful songwriter you are. And your love for people, your love for your family, your love for Christ, all of that comes through in your music. But the honesty of it and the authenticity of it is such an appealing part of what you do. Keep it up.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  Well, listen, you're you're so kind. And then that what you just said reminds me, Oprah, too, is is this book, it makes you think of the Theos in your life.

• 24:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  There there's many people that I called after this book. And I said, I would like you to read this book because you were this person to me. You were attentive to me when I did not think I was worthy of being attentive to, you know? And and I not, obviously, that makes me want to do that, you know, for for other people. But yeah, someone told me a long time ago, our attention is our greatest asset. And sadly, that's not how I naturally wake up. I naturally wake up and say, what do I need to get done today? What what's on my agenda? But honestly, thriving is sharing life together, getting deep, sharing our griefs.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Oh, my goodness, I'm united in grief with so many friends that I'll know till I die. And this book reminded me of those people who were brave enough to walk up to me when I was, when I was a leper, you know, and say, hey, man, I see good in you. I see sadness, I see this. They looked at me like a flower, you know? And that's what Theo did. And, uh, Alan, just, man, the feeling's mutual. We gotta hang out.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Oh, I would love it. I would love it. Tell your daughter I'm trying to learn the dance steps.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  And make sure you tell Laney that she is a hero for taking care of you and all those young'uns, right?

• 26:01Speaker 02

  She is.

• 26:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  She is.

• 26:03Oprah Winfrey?

  I I I heard that one of your favorite passages from the book is, most people will die with all of their songs still inside them.

• 26:11Speaker 02

  Yes, uh, for for me personally, that that hit me, you know? I was very, you know, I've I've I've been in Nashville 21 years and there there's no nothing says stay, you know, and keep doing this. There's not, you know, Alan, you've been a songwriter. You understand what I'm saying. And, uh, and so that that quote hit me. But can I mention another quote? Is it okay?

• 26:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, you can mention anything. Go ahead.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  I gotta tell you, there was a, there was a quote, Alan, that just crushed me. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna cry when I say it. But Ellen, in the book, she looks, she looks Theo in the face, you know, she's all dressed up. I'm not gonna spoil it, I promise.

• 26:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  And she says, do you think I'm nice? Am I making a good first impression?

• 26:58Speaker 02

  And I just, I was like, you know, that's everybody, you know? Everybody that that's making something or doing something, you just want somebody to put it on the fridge, man, you know? And and and we are, God, God is creative. Every single person is creative.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  And and you're noticing that, Alan. Like, you didn't even know you had this book in you, my man.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  And, uh, and it is a beautiful, beautiful book. But that quote, I told my kids about that. I said, you know, kids, I know that you wake up like this, and I want you to know, you are, you're you're capable of saintlyhood. There, you're gonna make mistakes, but my goodness, God loves you, and so do I. I'm gonna do the best I can to not choose me and choose you as much as I can. Anyway, I could, I'm sorry, I babble on, my guy.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Let me, let me, let me at least pay you this compliment. It crossed my mind the other night. I was driving home and, uh, and was listening to your songs. And I thought, you know, if I didn't have the dad that I do have, and I'm forever grateful uh, that A.C. Levi is my father, I love him. But if I could choose another dad, it would be you. And just seeing you with your kids and the way that you engage high school kids, particularly in some of your videos and whatnot. I do some work with high school kids back home. And I love that you are investing, uh, in in kids younger than you, obviously, and

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  and pointing them to the truth. So bless you for that.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  Well, look, I'm, I'm gonna make them read your book is what I'm gonna do, my man.

• 28:26Oprah Winfrey?

  He's gonna sell you some more books. That's what he's gonna do for you.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  I'll buy them. I'll just give them to them.

• 28:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Walker, thank you so much. Appreciate everything you said here today. Thank you so much.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me.

• 28:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you for joining us.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  Thank you, Walker. All the best.

• 28:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Congratulations on Seventeen Problems.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you very much.

• 28:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Thank you, Oprah. Y'all are amazing.

• 28:47Oprah Winfrey?

  When I was speaking in Australia recently, uh, speaking of favorite quotes, I actually mentioned one of my all time favorite quotes from the book, one of my favorite quotes of the year. On page 119, you write, for anything to be good, truly good, there must be love in it. I'm not even sure I know fully what that means, but the older I get, the more I believe it. There must be love for the gift itself, love for the subject being depicted or the story being told, and love for the audience. Whether the art is sculpture, farming, teaching, lawmaking, medicine, music, or raising a child, if love is not in it, at the very heart of it.

• 29:33Oprah Winfrey?

  It might be skillful, marketable, or popular, but I doubt it is truly good. Nothing is what it's supposed to be if love is not at the core.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 29:48Oprah Winfrey?

  And he's saying, I'm not sure I even know what that fully means. But the older I get, the more I believe it.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:54Oprah Winfrey?

  For anything to be good, it has to have love in it.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  You know, there's another way that that has been expressed in ancient literature. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. I think that was St. Paul's attempt.

• 30:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, yes.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  To say for anything to be good, truly good, there must be love in it. It's the truth.

• 30:33Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right. There's a gift itself, but it has to have love in it.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  And you know, that's tricky to me, Oprah, because I think that if we accept that premise as a rule for life.

• 30:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Which I have, we have to figure out, okay, what is love? And then how do we live it out? And I think that the novel for me, as I look at it now, was maybe an attempt on my part to answer those questions. What does it look like to live a life of love? And so the fact that Theo does his bestsols as quietly as he can. You might remember there was a scene when one of the characters says, why don't you just buy all 92 of them and get it over with?

• 31:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  And for him, that was defeating the whole purpose of what he was doing. He wanted to sit close enough to the person that he could touch them. He could look them in the eye. He could read their countenance. He could read the tone of their voice and he could listen attentively just to them. If there had been 92 people in the room.

• 31:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Couldn't do it.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Couldn't do it. But doing it one at a time and listening very carefully to what they said, that was the magic of the whole thing.

• 31:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, so did you get up every morning and write? Did you write sporadically? Did you, did different characters come to you while you're building the bird's nest?

• 31:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. You know, writing, as you probably know, I mean, once you get an idea in mind, it was this way when I was writing songs. The difference being that I could write a song in three hours and a book is going to take three years. But it, once, once the story started going, my mind was constantly on the story. But if I got frustrated, again, because I had no deadline, I had no expectation of publishing anything. I'd take a month or two off and then pick it back up. And finally, when it started feeling like a story, I said, okay, I'm going to really finish this thing. I'm going to hunker down and get it done, so.

• 32:19Oprah Winfrey?

  But you didn't have a ritual hour every day like a lot of people do.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Not so much. I do now, and I've always been a morning person. So most of my work was done early in the day. I love early morning. So it might be three or four o'clock that I'm working. It might be six or seven o'clock, but morning hours are when my mind works best.

• 32:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, we now have a record producer. I don't know what is about musician. We have a record producer and songwriter Claude Kelly joining us on Zoom from London.

• 32:46Speaker 03

  Hello.

• 32:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Is it late at night or early morning? Anyway, thanks for staying up for us.

• 32:50Speaker 03

  A little bit of both.

• 32:51Oprah Winfrey?

  A little bit of both. And I hear you're still on an emotional high from reading this book. Tell us about that.

• 32:56Speaker 03

  This one?

• 32:57Oprah Winfrey?

  This one?

• 32:58Speaker 03

  You got me.

• 32:58Oprah Winfrey?

  You got you.

• 32:59Speaker 03

  You got me.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Good, good, good.

• 33:00Speaker 03

  I'm a tough cookie, but I cried.

• 33:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 33:03Speaker 03

  I cried. This book felt like fiction. It felt like philosophy. It felt like a life lesson in all the ways. I found this book through TikTok. TikTok has been a beautiful book community. And a dear friend on TikTok read it and jumped on immediately in tears. And I was like, if it's making her cry, I gotta go buy it. And as soon as I finished it, I jumped on in tears because I had to share with everybody. I always say that books and pets and music choose you. You don't choose them. They choose you when it's the right time.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:38Speaker 03

  This book, at the end of 2025, was the perfect reset for my life and for my new year in all the ways. So first of all, I have to profoundly thank you for these words. And thank you for this platform to say thank you to both of you because this book is top five of all time for me. It has a permanent space on my bookshelf.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 34:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Nice.

• 34:02Speaker 03

  The words are, they jump off the page and it's not just about the fiction. It's about the depth of the words in the story. That just blew me away in every way.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Claude, I know, I know your history. I have studied your work and I know that especially early on, but even now, you are well known for the lyrical content of music that you write and produce. And coming from you, your compliments about the book, they carry great weight. But I'm curious, have you often read to improve your, your writing skills as a songwriter and producer?

• 34:39Speaker 03

  Reading is what informs my songwriting. I read at least eight to 12 books a month just to live in other people's shoes.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:48Speaker 03

  And maintain empathy.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  So I can tell stories that are outside of my own experience. I write a lot for women. I write a lot for people that don't look like me. And to do that, you have to understand and be open.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:59Speaker 03

  And so reading is a big part of my career, but also my personal life. So I'm always looking for ways to understand the human condition better.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:10Speaker 03

  And every book teaches me something new. They all don't work, but this one worked a little bit too well.

• 35:16Oprah Winfrey?

  I love what you're saying, Claude. I love what you're saying about you're reading to understand the human condition. And that's what I felt with every person that sat on that bench with, with him. We were learning something about their particular human condition. And it also, I'm sure did this for you too, as it did for me. It made you think about everybody you encounter. It's just like what Walker was saying earlier. Everybody you encounter, you feel like you want to give them more attention, pay more attention to their story because of what Theo is doing in this story.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:50Speaker 03

  Even more than attention, it reminded me to give everybody grace.

• 35:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Ah, even better, even better.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  What people are going through, both good and bad, what their history is. And if I can go even deeper than that, the word, I was eavesdropping. You talked about the word river, but the word that kept popping up for me, which is such a simple word, is the word good.

• 36:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 36:12Speaker 03

  And the word that, I'm gonna cry now. The word, it's a word that both tortures me and fuels me. Because it's a simple word, but I'm always asking myself, what does it mean? Am I being a good man, a good citizen, a good son, a good friend, a good musician?

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:31Speaker 03

  And I'm not sure there's a right answer for it.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:34Speaker 03

  But there were so many profound quotes in this book about what goodness means.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 03

  As it pertains to art and friendship and support.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:43Speaker 03

  Can I read a quote? Is that, is it okay?

• 36:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah, please do. We'd love to.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 36:47Speaker 03

  Goodness. Around the same part about, about there must be love in it. Right before that, it says, it's hard enough to define what art is, much less good art. But I guess if a work of art makes us see something familiar in a new way or makes us feel something we ought to have felt all along or shows us our place in the world more clearly, maybe then it qualifies as good.

• 37:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 37:09Speaker 03

  And as a songwriter who's always putting myself out there, which is very scary. You know this.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  True.

• 37:16Speaker 03

  I'm always wondering, am I doing this right? Are people going to receive it? Am I even good at this thing?

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:22Speaker 03

  And it was so comforting to know that the process of just trying to relate to people makes you good enough.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 37:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  Claude, it's interesting to write about goodness. Toni Morrison says it is much more difficult to write about goodness than, than evil.

• 37:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  And she, she talks about how it takes like a fully developed, competent adult to write about goodness. But I was reluctant to write about that as much as I did in the book because I think we have become so cynical by nature.

• 37:54Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  That when we write about goodness, kindness, they're just these defenses that go up.

• 38:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  But I'm really glad that you gravitated to that. We talked about another quote just a minute ago, that most people die with all of their music. Their songs still in them. Can I commend you for being one who will not do that? You, you are getting your music out. You're exploring, you're pushing the boundaries, all of that. And, and thank you for doing that. Maya Angelou, she talks about the songbird.

• 38:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  We don't, we don't, the songbird doesn't sing the song because it has the answers, but because it has the song. And sometimes I think maybe the songs that you write, we don't know how people will interpret them or how they're going to hit a heart. But thank you for what you do. It's brilliant.

• 38:42Speaker 03

  That means the world to me because you just don't know who you're reaching. What I know for sure is that my goal when I write is that it'll bless somebody. Oprah, at the beginning, you said this book was a bomb.

• 38:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:55Speaker 03

  That's how I, because it's, it's medicine, you know? It's medicine for the Creator as they make it. It heals you first, hopefully. And then if it heals you first, you know the medicine works.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Amen, good.

• 39:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Amen, amen. Thank you.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Claude, what a privilege.

• 39:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Thanks for staying up to talk to us.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:13Speaker 03

  Anytime, thank you.

• 39:15Oprah Winfrey?

  All the way from London. Thank you so much.

• 39:17Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 39:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Thanks, Claude. There's such a beautiful spiritual thread through this book that, that you all will find that is not preachy, rather it's about, as we were talking about here, caring for other people about hope and the willingness to be generous without having an agenda.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:33Oprah Winfrey?

  It feels like Theo Golden was shaped by your own beliefs of goodness.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 39:38Oprah Winfrey?

  And seeking that for yourself and what you felt about hope and beauty.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Was it?

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, no doubt, no doubt. Oprah, I think it's fair to say that everything that I've done creatively has been an expression of my faith. I hope that everything I do every day is an expression of faith. I think you and I would share that, that view. That everything we do.

• 39:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Is an expression of what's deep down in the well.

• 39:59Oprah Winfrey?

  It's coming out of your love of yourself and love of God and God's love for you.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 40:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, everything, everything about the book is just an attempt on my part, really to articulate, even for myself, what I believe to be true. But I hope that, you know, someone else can read. I got the most interesting email this morning.

• 40:19Oprah Winfrey?

  What?

• 40:19Speaker 01

  And I don't get many. I don't use media very much. I don't read any reviews. I don't engage with any social media. But every now and then my niece will send me a message. She sent me one this morning from. From a woman, and she had read the book. She said, I'm 71 years old. I've never written to an author before. And she said, because of child trauma in my life, she said, I am an atheist. She said, I just, I just don't buy into, to the God thing. But she said, the book really spoke to my heart. And she said, I just wanted you to know that the book touched a life from someone not in your intended

• 41:00Speaker 01

  audience. And I would like to make clear that my intended audience is every person that stands up or can read a book. No, no walls, no barriers. The book was never meant to be for a select group of people. I hope everybody will read it and be blessed by it.

• 41:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, how did you feel about getting that particular email?

• 41:19Speaker 01

  I was very gratified. And I will respond to that one. Maybe she and I will become friends. I don't know. But yeah, it's really gratifying to know that, that goodness.

• 41:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  To Claude's point, goodness, kindness, those are universals. God has hardwired that into every one of us, I think.

• 41:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  It gets beat out of us.

• 41:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  And maybe because of trauma, we, we lose our ability to access that on a regular basis.

• 41:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Or to receive it, or to receive it.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Or to receive it.

• 41:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Receive and accept it.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  But.

• 41:48Oprah Winfrey?

  That's what we loved about the character Theo and Theo of Golden is that every character comes to him with a different background. I don't know who was atheist or who believed in God or who didn't.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 41:59Oprah Winfrey?

  But he was accepting of every one of them.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Without any judgment.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Which is.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  And that's what Jesus.

• 42:06Oprah Winfrey?

  How we try to live, how we try to live, but most of us don't succeed.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  And that's what Jesus was about.

• 42:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  I mean, okay, you got that sordid past. Please come. Let me welcome you.

• 42:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Like, like Walker was saying, that whole idea of being adopted. Theo would adopt anybody that would sit at the other end of the bench with him.

• 42:23Oprah Winfrey?

  May I say, that ending, I couldn't even believe it. You knew that ending was coming, though.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  I did.

• 42:30Oprah Winfrey?

  You did.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I had been criticized mightily for it. But it had to happen. It had to happen the way that it happened. I tried to work, I tried to work other endings to get to the same very end of the book, but none of them worked. And, and you've heard said that good art makes us feel something. I knew that, you know, that part of the book was going to make people feel something deeply. I can live with that. I like that.

• 42:55Oprah Winfrey?

  You can live with it.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  I can live with that.

• 42:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay. Host and designer Tamara Day from the hit show Bargain Mansions is joining us.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  Hey Tamara.

• 43:02Oprah Winfrey?

  From our home in, in Kansas. Tamara, how did the book impact you?

• 43:06Speaker 04

  Oh, well, it, it's been incredible. I, I feel like, one, I want to thank you for hosting this. And I get the benefit of being at the end of, of this lovely hour. And I didn't think I could adore you any more than I do. I already did. But now, Alan, you've just, you've, you've touched my heart in a whole new way than I even expected. The book was such a meaningful book for me at such a meaningful time. And I think for me right now, as a, a mom turning 50 and having four kids, two of them out of the house, and one of them getting ready to leave the home. My, my biggest takeaway is that I want them to be a bit of Theo in the world.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 04

  But I hope that they go into the world and find somebody that's a Theo. And that they get, they get to receive and give that. I love the quote that you said, there was Theo before Lisbon and after Lisbon. And I feel like I am Tamara before Theo.

• 44:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Really?

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 44:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow, wow, wow.

• 44:13Speaker 04

  It's just so beautiful in so many ways.

• 44:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Tamara, did it, did it ever strike you that what you do is exactly what, what Theo did with people? You, you happen to do it with structures. But I thought, I think there's such an interesting parallel between what Tamara does with these, these structures that just need someone to love them. You adopt them. You can see beyond the shell. You can see the potential that's hidden behind the boards. And, and you do this wonderful reconfiguration that turns into beauty. That's exactly what Theo did. And you do that, obviously, with your family. I've, I've read a lot of what you have on, online. Yeah, especially about your son who recently graduated, I think. But you and Bill have done such a wonderful job with your family.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  And that, that's a blessing to all who know what you do out there.

• 45:02Speaker 04

  Thank you. I really appreciate that so much. I, I think that there, there's value in every home that I, I work on. And there's value in every person. That's what I think I learned so much in Theo is that there is so much value and potential in every person.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:17Speaker 04

  And like Oprah said, I don't think everyone feels seen in life. And this really gave me an opportunity to look and say, everybody is going through a sadness.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:27Speaker 04

  And a joy.

• 45:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 45:29Speaker 04

  And just look a little deeper.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's good.

• 45:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you, Tamara. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining us.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Tamara, every blessing.

• 45:35Oprah Winfrey?

  I feel the same way. I, I mean, I, I, we love the book. I've read a lot about Alan Levi and his whole story. And then you meet him and it's like, wow, this guy is the real deal.

• 45:48Speaker 04

  The real deal.

• 45:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  Thank you, Tamara. Likewise. My love to Bill.

• 45:52Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 45:53Oprah Winfrey?

  So Theo observes a sadness, as we were just talking about with Tamara, about this joy and sadness. And you write on page 214, "It is another of life's great mysteries that sadness and joy can coexist so compatibly with one another. And there is the beautiful possibility that great love can grow out of sadness if it is well tended. Sadness can make us bitter or wise. We get to choose." What does it look like for sadness to be well attended, do you think, Alan?

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we have to prepare for tending it well before we ever get there.

• 46:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Ooh, yeah.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 46:31Oprah Winfrey?

  I do know what you mean.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  I mean, we know it's coming.

• 46:32Oprah Winfrey?

  You know it's coming.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  We know it's coming means Theo was 86 when the story began. And by then, no one could have lived eight decades and not been hurt deeply. All of us, all of us have to deal with it. One of the reasons that I included that, and it was actually late in the writing, Oprah, was because I wanted for people to come away with the impression that this story is about the world that I know. And all of us live in a world where there is, is sadness. But I think to be able to say, okay, this is part of the human experience. It doesn't have to undo me. Oftentimes it does, at least for a season. But I can prepare for this and I can love myself through this experience. I can accept the love of God through this experience and I can share it with others.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  And of course, when we hurt and survive, then it just opens the door for us to help others when they go through the same thing. And we can, can look at our experience.

• 47:25Oprah Winfrey?

  I think that's what our, our surviving and hurting is all about, is, is turning it into

• 47:32Oprah Winfrey?

  something useful for other people, being able to use it to share.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Which is what you've done throughout this book. You know, a lot of people listening to us right now, a lot of you have been either read Theo of Golden and as our, our guest today, felt something profound. Or you were called to be more thoughtful or kind or generous, seeing one another in a way that you hadn't before. And now will be moved to read it, hopefully, if you have not. But if you could have everyone understand one truth from this book, what would it be?

• 48:05Speaker 01

  It would be the one that you've already mentioned.

• 48:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  That if we are going to live our lives well, we have to pray that it all comes from a well of love that can only come from God to us.

• 48:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  You know, there was a time that a lawyer asked Jesus a question. And he said, what is the great commandment? And there were, there were hundreds that he could have chosen from. But very quickly, he responded, "Love God with heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself. All of the law and the prophets hang on these commandments."

• 48:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  And that is what life is about. Sometimes it's hard to know whether we're doing it well or not.

• 48:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  And we have to define it. We have to figure out what it looks like. If I'm an insurance salesman, a teacher, a stay at home mom, a pastor, a bricklayer. Love looks different in those different settings. But at the end of the day, I think we all want to be able to honestly put our head on the pillow and say, I loved well today. And I think at the end of our lives, it would be nice if, if we could say, Lord, I didn't do it perfectly, but my aim in life was to love. And Oprah Winfrey, you do that in a way that makes the rest of us envious. Your story is so well known. But the thing that endears so many people to you is behind all of your expertise and your professionalism,

• 49:20Speaker 01

  your heart explodes with, with, with love for people, love for God. I listened to part of your story the other night, a hard part of your story, where you said that during those hard times, it was God, your Father, and Jesus, your brother, who held you up.

• 49:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Absolutely.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  And that comes through in so much, everything that you do. So in behalf of so many millions of people, I just want to say thank you.

• 49:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  Thank you for what you do.

• 49:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you for that. You know, we have never had a guest here on television in all the years do for our Zoom readers what you just did for everybody, making them feel so seen, just like, just like Theo, just like Theo.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  You do it. You do it every day. So thank you.

• 50:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you. Well, you're someone who's absolutely paid attention to your own life and to the human condition. I wonder, what, what is your definition of a well-lived life? You seem to have one. But what, how would you define a, a well-lived life?

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Okay, I will repeat myself. A life lived in deference or submission to the idea that we, we honor God and love people well. And every day, our mission is that. Honor God, love people well. A, a life well-lived is one where we look beyond our own needs, our own preferences. We accept others where they are, asking nothing and without condition. And to, to go back to what Walker was saying, we adopt. We illuminate the lives of others by the way that we love them.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  If we could do that well, I'm sure the, the world would look a lot different than it does now.

• 51:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  What would you say? Can I ask you that question? What does a, a life well-lived look like to Oprah?

• 51:07Oprah Winfrey?

  I think a life well-lived is a life understanding. What I was saying earlier, that you are connected to a source that we call God, that's greater than you, that that source is a part of you, living, thriving above, above, around and through you in all ways. And that your goal in life is to exemplify as closely as you can the teachings and the love that is offered from your Creator, God.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:44Oprah Winfrey?

  And a well-lived life is when you can do that in such a way that you benefit, but everyone else benefits also.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. Good Theo did that in the story, right?

• 51:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, he did.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  And I think if anyone asked the old man if he thought he enjoyed it more or the recipients of the bestowals, he would have said, no one enjoyed this more than me. It's that idea that it's more blessed to give than to receive. That really works.

• 52:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, and I do believe that too. I do believe that too, as I know you do.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  I do.

• 52:15Oprah Winfrey?

  And I know many of you listening will be pleased to hear that Alan is writing a sequel titled Alan of Golden.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Yes, indeed.

• 52:23Oprah Winfrey?

  How far along are you and what can readers expect?

• 52:25Speaker 01

  I have had my teeth in it for a while, but I've got a lot yet to do. She's been a difficult character to wrestle to the mat.

• 52:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Does she still have that bicycle?

• 52:35Speaker 01

  She's still got the noble invention. And she is really a beautiful character, but the story will be different. I don't think I'm tipping my hand in any way by saying this. She's homeless and she's very bright. She is very well-read. And I've got to explain, how does someone with that sort of erudition also have that sort of eccentricity? And she's had a hard life. And so the storyline will be a bit different. And the tone of the story, at least for a good portion of the text, will be a bit different than Theo.

• 53:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And are you having, is it coming easy to you? Is it challenging?

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Oh, it's so hard. And Oprah, here's why. I think it's kind of like what Claude was saying. There was no expectation on the first book. I wasn't trying to please anybody. I was just trying to prove to myself I could write a book. And now there are a lot of people that have read Theo, who have read Theo, and they're probably expecting...

• 53:31Oprah Winfrey?

  There's an expectation.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really hard. It's really hard, but...

• 53:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you're no longer just writing for yourself. You definitely are not, and you know it.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 53:39Oprah Winfrey?

  And you have a bestseller list to prove it.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  But I'm loving it. I will say that.

• 53:43Oprah Winfrey?

  You're loving it.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  I still, the characters all jump into bed with me at night. They are living with me 24 hours.

• 53:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Do you write longhand or do you write computer?

• 53:52Speaker 01

  I'm old school.

• 53:52Oprah Winfrey?

  You're old school.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  It's all longhand. I type it up and do my edits in longhand. Very inefficient way to write, but I can't write any other way. I'm a dinosaur.

• 54:01Oprah Winfrey?

  That's that old attorney in you.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  It is, it is.

• 54:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Coming through. Well, y'all, Theo of Golden is out now, and it's available wherever books are sold. And I thank you for this really magnetic, magnificent story, and for the reminder that really every life is worth noticing, is worth being attentive to.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Indeed.

• 54:21Oprah Winfrey?

  And as Claude said, offering grace to. And I hope our conversation today in this beautiful book inspires you all to find your Theo within. Thank you, Alan Levi.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 54:32Oprah Winfrey?

  For coming all the way to my porch.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  I love it. Thank you.

• 54:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you, Walker, and thank you, Claude and Tamara for zooming in. We'll see you next week, everybody. Go well. If you're looking for a story that's going to warm your heart, I know for sure, oh my goodness, you're going to love Theo of Golden. The QR code to buy it is right there on your screen. It's as easy as easy can be. It's a novel that's centered on kindness, connection, and the extraordinary impact that one person can have on a community. I know so many people who've read it and feel that their light has been enhanced by the reading of it. This book stays with you long after this last page. And you can buy it right now. Scan the QR code on your screen. It's so easy.

• 55:20Oprah Winfrey?

  And happy summer reading. Enjoy it and then pass it on. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing, I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button, and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about. So thank you for watching and listening.