BREAKING: Brazil’s Defense Minister Says They’ve Had Alien Contact [Exclusive Interview]

Our Alchemist this week is Brazil’s former Minister of Defense, Aldo Rebelo. Please support the show by checking out our amazing sponsors below! Shopify: Start your business for just $1/month at https://shopify.com/jesse. Sponsored by Shopify, the commerce platform behind millions of businesses and 10% of all U. S. e-commerce. Cowboy Colostrum: Get 25% Off Cowboy Colostrum with code JESSE at https://cowboycolostrum.com/jesse Brazil's former Defense Minister and current presidential candidate Aldo Rebelo confirms the country has had contact with non-human intelligence dating back to at least the 70’s. He says that in 1977, in Colares, UFOs were injuring civilians in the Amazon with burns, puncture wounds and blood loss serious enough to trigger a classified military investigation. In 1986, six fighter jets were scrambled against 21 unidentified craft detected by radar – the objects were flying at Mach 20+ and making right angle turns, maneuvers well beyond the capabilities of the most advanced craft today. He also confirms that the 1996 Varginha UFO crash occurred, that non-human beings were encountered, and says he fully believes the neurosurgeon who came face to face with one of them in a hospital bed. He also confirms the American military would have had an immediate strategic interest in the case. Rebelo says there is more classified information about these cases and others, and that they should be released alongside America's. Rebelo’s confirmation of the events at Varginha is the equivalent of former Defense Ministers in the United States like Robert Baker or Jim Mattis saying Roswell happened; its world history that can’t be walked back. And it ends decades of condescension and gaslighting from top ranking officials on this topic. -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early/Ad Free Episodes) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Apply For Jobs ➤ [email protected] Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction 0:00 - Introduction 4:30 - Sponsors (Shopify, Cowboy Colostrum) 6:38 - Guest Introduction 8:08 - Rebelo's First UFO Interest 10:10 - Brazil's Three Major UFO Cases 11:02 - Colares: Chupa Chupa Attacks 14:14 - Operation Prato Still Classified 16:48 - Theories on Colares 19:53 - Disclosure and National Secrets 23:13 - UFOs, Religion, and Brazil 27:41 - Sagan, Science, and Fiction 31:01 - Brazil's Night of UFOs 1986 36:27 - Were UFOs Man-Made? 41:46 - Would Rebelo Open the Files? 50:12 - Varginha 1996: The Crash 55:56 - The Varginha ET 56:59 - Dr. Venturelli's Testimony 1:01:52 - US Military at Varginha 1:07:54 - Inside Brazil's Defense Ministry 1:11:11 - Rebelo Confirms Varginha Was Real 1:12:01 - Alien Bacteria and Soldier's Death 1:22:12 - Researcher Shot at Investigating Varginha 1:26:39 - Why Politicians Ignore UFOs 1:29:18 - Rebelo the Philosopher-Politician 1:38:04 - AI, Harari, and the Vatican 1:42:05 - US Reverse Engineering Programs 1:45:42 - Why Disclosure Is Happening Now 1:51:54 - Ubatuba UFO Metal Fragment 1:54:22 - Communist to Nationalist: Rebelo's Journey 2:02:24 - BRICS and Brazil's Future 2:05:56 - Party Controversy and Candidacy 2:07:08 - National Unity Vision 2:14:06 - Brazil, US, and China 2:20:09 - Brazil's UFO Reporting Mandate 2:23:01 - UFOs and Rare Earth 2:29:10 - Brazilian Soccer and Neymar 2:35:21 - Closing Remarks 2:37:02 - Outro Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:57Jesse Michels?

  There are places on earth where the line between the known and the unknown wears thin.

• 1:06Jesse Michels?

  Brazil is one of them. It's a country of rainforest, rare minerals, and some of the strangest UFO encounters ever recorded.

• 1:20Jesse Michels?

  Lights over the Amazon, beams from the sky. A creature with red eyes and skin that's lethal to the touch.

• 1:32Jesse Michels?

  There's no one better to walk us into that mystery than today's guest, Aldo Rebelo.

• 1:40Jesse Michels?

  Brazil's former Minister of Defense, current presidential candidate, and a man who's spent decades at the center of Brazilian power. A man who's probably seen firsthand into the UFO vault and who said on the record that if the United States opens its own files, he'll open Brazil's.

• 2:02Jesse Michels?

  Today, he's also the man who'll look you dead in the eye and tell you that the phenomenon is real.

• 2:08Speaker 03

  The records about such unidentified celestial phenomena date back to antiquity.

• 2:16Speaker 03

  They're not new.

• 2:18Jesse Michels?

  In this unprecedented candid conversation, we cover it all. We get into the Chupa Chupa attacks in Colares in the 70s, where UFOs in the Amazonian night sky allegedly fired mysterious beams that left villagers with burns, blood loss, and puncture wounds. A multi-month event affecting 200 people. So serious that the Air Force ran a real investigation on it called Operation Prata.

• 2:51Jesse Michels?

  We touch on Brazil's mass UFO radar incursions of 1986, an unforgettable night for the Brazilian military. And then, there's Varginha, Brazil's very own modern-day Roswell.

• 3:09Jesse Michels?

  Rebelo basically acknowledges that in 1996, in the small city of Varginha, something crashed. It was recovered. And a non-human creature, or multiple creatures, with slick, oily brown skin and big red eyes, was seen by multiple witnesses and even treated by a neurosurgeon in a hospital. I know that sounds like a Spielberg movie you'd want to watch. It's actually a case that Spielberg is familiar with.

• 3:43Jesse Michels?

  Except, this isn't Hollywood. This is the former Brazilian Minister of Defense sitting across from me, telling me it was real. In America, our equivalent would be a former Secretary of Defense, like a Jim Mattis or a Robert Gates, saying that Roswell was real. Saying candidly that, yeah, a saucer probably did crash in New Mexico and beings probably did emerge from it. And in doing so, he gives validation and voice to all the witnesses, researchers, doctors, military personnel, and ordinary people who have been attacked, dismissed, and ridiculed over this subject for decades. And he provides shelter and safe haven to those who haven't come out yet.

• 4:28Speaker 03

  Believing that a phenomenon like this exists, of course.

• 4:32Jesse Michels?

  To Rebelo, the real question isn't whether the phenomenon has occurred. It's where it came from, why it was here, and what it means for the future of science, society, defense, and where humanity stands in the universe.

• 4:47Jesse Michels?

  So with that, enjoy this historic conversation with Aldo Rebelo, Brazil's former Minister of Defense, current presidential candidate, and the man who'll tell you that some of the strangest stories you've ever heard might also be the truest.

• 5:04Jesse Michels?

  A blinking 3.5.

• 5:08Jesse Michels?

  How is this possible?

• 5:11Jesse Michels?

  Nothing too unusual about that.

• 5:14Jesse Michels?

  The existence cannot longer be denied.

• 5:26Jesse Michels?

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• 6:10Jesse Michels?

  Sign up now for your $1 per month trial and start today at Shopify.com/Jesse. Again, that's Shopify.com/Jesse, J-E-S-S-E. $1 to try Shopify, which is the state-of-the-art solution in e-commerce today. Thank you so much to Shopify for sponsoring today's episode.

• 6:33Jesse Michels?

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• 7:18Jesse Michels?

  Just head to cowboycolostrum.com/jesse and use code JESSE at checkout. That's 25% off when you use code JESSE, J E S S E, at cowboycolostrum.com/jesse. I'm here with Aldo Rabello, who is a former Minister of the Chamber of Deputies, former Minister of Defense, former Minister of Sport, current presidential candidate for the Christian Democracy Party, although there's some controversies I want to talk about there. But you've had an illustrious history. You are a cornerstone of Brazilian politics. You are currently running against Lula and Bolsonaro, but in many ways, you kind of exist at the intersection between both.

• 8:02Jesse Michels?

  You are kind of the almost Plato's philosopher king of Brazilian politics over the last 20 or 30 years. So I'm very excited to speak to you about your philosophy of Brazilian sovereignty. You're a long career. But the reason that I am here, as you know, I focus on kind of anomalous phenomena, the nature of reality, is that you tweeted something very interesting. You said, "As former Defense Minister, I am provoked to speak on the subject." You're talking about UFOs. "I know what the armed forces have in their archives. What I can say is that if the US government reveals its documents, I will do the same if I am elected president of Brazil." So I'm very excited to be here.

• 8:46Jesse Michels?

  Thank you for having me. It's an honor.

• 8:48Speaker 03

  Thank you so much, Jesse, and welcome. Welcome to Brazil. I know it's your first time here in my country, so welcome. I hope that your stay does justice to you, not only as a journalist, but also as a guest.

• 9:04Jesse Michels?

  What was the first time, if you can recall, that you started to take UFOs more seriously? Was there a moment, do you remember, when you first heard about UFOs?

• 9:16Speaker 03

  Yes, in my youth. There was this huge curiosity about these phenomena. And it was a type of healthy curiosity, because the news was divided between phenomena that were observed. And there was also sci-fi literature that used this subject matter as the object of writers, journalists, and also aficionados. So it got all of our attention. And we saw that in the movies, in literature, and yeah, it got my attention.

• 9:48Speaker 03

  I've never monitored it really closely, but I've always been curious about seeing it in the news, especially with regards to phenomena that is related to national defense concerns.

• 10:01Speaker 03

  In Brazil alone, there are hundreds of episodes. But three at least were closely overseen by the armed forces and the Brazilian intelligence and defense systems. One occurred in the state of Pará, in the 70s. Another one was in the 80s, in a town called São José dos Campos. And the other one was in the 90s, in the south of Minas Gerais, in the town of Varginha. These episodes were documented, were overseen.

• 10:34Speaker 03

  The armed forces were interested in the subject. Because there was a concern that these events could pose a risk to national defense and security. And naturally, this, for me, someone who's always been concerned with issues pertaining to national security and national defense,

• 10:55Speaker 03

  as also part of Brazil's foreign policy,

• 11:00Speaker 03

  this is what led me to keep up with at least these three events.

• 11:06Jesse Michels?

  Hmm, I'm very excited to talk about all three events. I want to start with, um, Prato. Operation Prato in 1977, Colares.

• 11:15Jesse Michels?

  It's a fascinating case, and it's a very dark case because you have the people in this village, this little fishing village, were being terrorized essentially. They called it the chupa chupa because their blood was being extracted. The mayor was in deep fear. You had men and women sleeping in 50 to 60, you know, in one place, just so, you know, the men could defend the women, because often it was younger females that were the targets of these sorts of attacks. And it felt like lasers and directed energy were being beamed at them. So what do you know about this? And what do you know about this specifically that the rest of the public might not know?

• 12:03Speaker 03

  Well, Jesse, what all of us who keep up with this phenomena know is what has been documented. And there's a lot of it. Because there is testimony of the military who were in charge of the operation, because they had to send a whole task force to monitor these phenomena. And there are accounts of not only military, but also a physician, a doctor, who attended to the victims of these incursions. Of these strange unidentified beings. At night, they would see those objects in flight. And the method never varied. As it was flying, the object would cast down a beam of light. That light illuminated the

• 12:48Speaker 03

  person and paralyzed them. From in that white light, came a second beam, which was yellowish in color and roughly 30 centimeters in diameter, that would be pointed at the person's chest. After that, there was another beam that was red. This beam would make a puncture. It extracted blood and also put something in the body of the victim. Something like an implant. There were several deaths.

• 13:22Speaker 04

  So there's a suspicion that they were laser beams, but no one really knows what kind of beam struck and affected those people. And after being hit, these people had perforations, blood loss, they were anemic. They also suffered other... they felt numbness in their bodies. A number of injuries that were identified by the physician who assisted these people. And the officers who witnessed it and set up the whole operation in this village in the state of Pará documented these objects as they were approaching.

• 14:07Speaker 04

  And they couldn't identify where they were. So that has been fully documented. Now, part of the reports and accounts of this event and the operation, I mean, it was a long operation, still remains classified, kept by the armed forces. But that which has been documented is substantial evidence of the existence of the phenomena, of the people that were victims of the contact with these unidentified objects,

• 14:49Speaker 04

  and accounts by highly credible people. These are officers from the armed forces and the physician who tended to these patients, who had complications and injuries that stemmed from the event that took place in the state of Pará.

• 15:10Jesse Michels?

  And you had an official investigation that it sort of prompted. It was, you know, Operatio Prato. And you had Captain Alondra Lima go in and investigate. He brought a whole team. They documented 300-plus encounters. They took 500 photographs and they were... Recorded fifteen hours of Super 8 film footage. And they had a whole documentation that was over 2,000 pages. He himself actually saw an alien being that was in a space suit. And, and the being sort of gave him a hug. And he went on record about this later, about two decades later in 1997. And then he sadly committed suicide a few months after that.

• 15:57Jesse Michels?

  The Super 8 footage, this is still, I believe, exists in the Defense Ministry. Did you ever see it? And do you have access to it?

• 16:09Speaker 03

  Jesse, there is no question that there was an official operation executed by the Brazilian Armed Forces to monitor this phenomenon with the title "Operation Pratú". So this isn't up for debate. The operation took place. It was an official operation led by the Armed Forces to monitor these phenomena in the state of Pará. The second fact is the existence of the diagnosis and the testimony of the physician regarding the victims that were affected by the same phenomenon.

• 16:47Speaker 03

  There is no question about that either. The only question that still remains is about a report that was not documented or disclosed.

• 17:00Speaker 03

  On part of the then-captain, who later became a colonel, when he passed, he was a retired colonel.

• 17:08Speaker 03

  That part of the report, which is still classified, which remains confidential,

• 17:16Speaker 03

  is what we didn't have a chance to analyze or witness what it's comprised of.

• 17:25Speaker 03

  So we only have access to that which has already been disclosed. And it's a full detailed description of the contact, the testimonials, and the testimony of the members of the Armed Forces that were responsible for leading the operation.

• 17:41Speaker 03

  So there's no doubt about that.

• 17:44Jesse Michels?

  Now, you seem like a very thoughtful person who doesn't just take in evidence that's anomalous and not think about it a lot. Do you have any leading theories about what Choleras was? Because it's such a bizarre fact pattern. You had puncture wounds, blood taken. It almost looked like ultraviolet burns on a lot of people. You had a physician who was present, actually, Dr. Carvalho, who famously went on record seeing two women who basically had strokes, who died due to these UFO contact events. Do you have any theories as to what caused all of this?

• 18:24Speaker 04

  There's a list of injuries, and all of this is part of the diagnosis of the medical report. It wasn't just a matter of the strokes, or anemia, or blood loss.

• 18:36Speaker 04

  Other consequences, like numbness,

• 18:42Speaker 04

  and a variety of others that resulted from the contact of these people with these unidentified objects and beings.

• 18:55Speaker 04

  You see, I don't have the scientific knowledge.

• 19:01Speaker 04

  I was not present during the event

• 19:05Speaker 04

  in order to develop a theory regarding the origin of whatever it was that was reported.

• 19:13Speaker 04

  Not only in this event that happened in Choleras, but the others as well, like in Vajinha.

• 19:22Speaker 04

  And if science itself, with all of its resources, all of its means, can't clarify, I think it would be reckless on my part in trying to develop my own theory on the origin of these phenomena.

• 19:38Speaker 04

  It really wouldn't be prudent of me to even attempt to provide a diagnostic after decades of efforts from experts and scientists and people who dedicated their whole lives, like Nick Pope himself, who went to his grave saying, "Well, I can't account for the 8% of the facts."

• 19:56Speaker 04

  Who am I to say anything?

• 20:00Jesse Michels?

  Fair enough. You know, Jacques Ballez is one of the godfathers of UFO research. He's French, he's an astronomer. He was actually involved in the invention of the Internet. And he came down to Colares to investigate. And he also came to the... He calls... His diaries are called Forbidden Science. And he came to the conclusion, because he spoke to Dr. Carvalho, who saw 35 patients who all had the same sunburns and puncture wounds, and the two women that died of a stroke. And he was just astonished that science can't even look at it. It's too... It's almost too much for humans to cope with, for our kind of epistemology to kind of understand.

• 20:45Jesse Michels?

  And so I think that's very fair to not come to a conclusion. But I hope that we can study this in a more official capacity. You obviously are running for president. There are rumors about conversations between you and Bolsonaro. I know you've had some issues with the Christian Democracy Party. If you were in office, would you start to have that conversation in a more official capacity? Would you try to get the best and brightest Brazilian scientists on these sorts of topics?

• 21:22Speaker 04

  Yes, provided that the common denominator is the national interest. The reserves have to protect national security. I believe that here we have a classic liberal, common notion that the state should not have secrets. People can have their secrets, companies can have their secrets, but there are some people who believe that the state should never hold secrets. I think there are secrets that are personal, secrets that relate to trade, corporative secrets, scientific secrets, technological secrets, and secrets that are national, of the public interest, that pertain to the state.

• 22:07Speaker 04

  The state, many times, is forced to adopt procedures that it can't announce publicly, especially in the areas of defense, foreign policy, and intelligence.

• 22:22Speaker 03

  This information will be revealed, taking into account that there is a common agreement with other countries.

• 22:32Speaker 03

  That's why I conditioned the disclosure of this information from Brazil to the disclosure of the same information from the United States. Because a significant part of this information, and I guarantee you, is shared. If a man, who is an expert, migrated from the UK to the United States to do the same job, it's because there was some level of reciprocity, or you could even call it complicity, between the intelligence services of both countries with regards to sharing this information.

• 23:10Speaker 03

  So to the extent that this information may be shared and disclosed under a reciprocal agreement,

• 23:20Speaker 03

  this should be done for the benefit of science, for the dissemination of knowledge, even if it does eventually, in many cases, raise a sense of uncertainty and suspicion.

• 23:35Speaker 03

  Because of course, if you admit that there is life outside of our planet, it's not a small matter. It isn't merely scientific. It involves morals, it involves philosophy, and religion. Some very sensitive nerves are going to be touched upon, that have to do with human history, human culture, and human traditions.

• 23:57Speaker 03

  So it's very important to be cautious when you touch on these very delicate, sensitive issues that have to do with the values of humanity. Action is a must.

• 24:09Jesse Michels?

  Brazil is very interesting to touch on what you just said, because it sits at the intersection between traditional Catholicism, but you have people practicing traditional Catholicism, and also Kendombe, Umbanda, Alan Cardich is a spiritist from the 1850s who obviously had his whole taxonomy of non-corporeal beings, you know, huge following in Brazil. And so, it's an interesting place in that you have the traditional religious element, but you also have the openness to some of these phenomena. And so, do you think UFOs, in your mind, do you think it's consistent with Catholicism?

• 24:52Jesse Michels?

  How do you think people in Brazil would react? Because in my experience, I almost think that it feels more natural and it feels like they're more open to the phenomena than in places even like the US.

• 25:06Speaker 03

  Jesse, the concern regarding this subject appears in a very indirect way. When I was really young, there was a book that was released here. It was super successful. Everyone read it.

• 25:23Speaker 03

  "Chariots of the Gods." The Portuguese title would translate to, "Were the gods astronauts? So, did they build the pyramids?" And that ignited a wave of curiosity. Science fiction movies, movies about extraterrestrials, the possibility or not of the existence of extraterrestrial life. All of this raises a huge commotion, a lot of curiosity, especially when fiction addresses these ideas. So it shows that people have a lot of interest and curiosity about the subject. And maybe even beyond interest and curiosity. It also reflects and reveals an existential concern.

• 26:07Speaker 03

  In other words, what are we in the world? Are we alone? What if we're not alone?

• 26:15Speaker 03

  How do you explain these other forms of life? These other beings? If we, here, were created in the image and likeness of God, if this was how man was created, are we ready for a different circumstance? Another hypothesis? I believe that this has to be discussed with a lot of respect and a lot of caution. It's not something that can be subject of mere speculation. Unless we're talking about fiction, then it's absolutely fine. Movies, literature, talking about if gods were astronauts, about an alien aboard a spaceship, that's fiction.

• 27:00Speaker 03

  Science, however, has another level of responsibility. It can't treat the subject that way. There's a book by Carl Sagan.

• 27:10Speaker 04

  Who was probably one of the greatest scientific exponents in the United States, called Demon Haunted World, in which he touches upon the amount of scientific ignorance of American society, of rulers, of statesmen. Ronald Reagan, for example, would rely on a card reader to make his decisions. Back then, he would say that there was only one that had a background in science, which was the Prime Minister of the UK who had a degree in chemistry. So he would say that the average American was so ignorant scientifically speaking that they had the equivalent mentality of someone from the end of the 19th century. So these people would look at science from a great, great distance.

• 27:55Speaker 04

  Their worldview is explained by the presence of demons and not by the presence of science. So that has to be taken into account, that situation. According to him, a survey was done with Americans, asking them how they believed the dinosaurs had vanished. And 90% of Americans would say, "Well, it's because they couldn't fit into Noah's Ark. And that's why they disappeared, because they were left out of Noah's Ark." So this issue has to be taken into account, and it's not exclusive to the US, it's all over the world.

• 28:36Jesse Michels?

  It's true, and that's a great book by Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World. Sagan's very interesting, though, because he also wrote the movie Contact and the book Pale Blue Dot. And so, and in his early diaries as a child, he speculates a lot about UFOs. He has clearly a wonder for, you know, the universe. And he talks about, you know, platonic objects, you know, things like higher dimensional space objects that, you know, like a tesseract that you would only see the shadow of if you were kind of on a lower plane. And so, you know, I go back and forth, I wonder what he actually believed about UFOs.

• 29:18Jesse Michels?

  And I know Nancy Reagan and probably Ronald Reagan had their astrologer, but maybe sometimes, you know, mystical ways of knowing.

• 29:28Jesse Michels?

  Are also, you know, valid too, you know, Baba Vanga would, you know, regularly advise world leaders. I believe Bolsonaro, who you've, you know, now have sort of a friendly relationship with, he, I think, has an astrologer as well.

• 29:44Speaker 04

  Yes, and there is a type of astrology, which would turn to knowledge as well, which is Egyptian astrology. It's not the astrology that comes from horoscopes that you read in the newspaper. That's another thing. The astrology that was referred to in Egypt was based on the rigorous examination of the stars. It wasn't this mere poppycock made to sell these packages with astrology and horoscope issues that was sold with daily papers. There's another important book by Carl Sagan, which it's called, I'm not sure in English,

• 30:29Speaker 04

  but in Brazil, it's called Billions and Billions. And he touches upon this issue with a lot of care and a lot of sensibility. And I believe that in this way, I believe that the care taken into how science should approach this subject has to do with taking into account the scientific knowledge of people. Because you shouldn't really breed desperation or create panic. It's very easy to create panic. You know, the Orson Welles story? The radio show? In other words, he created panic

• 31:12Speaker 04

  by simply telling a story that wasn't real. It was fake news. But since he was such a competent and efficient communicator, as Orson Welles was known for, he whipped up a panic on a news radio show. So I understand the caution and the prudence of science. Because it's different from a mere opinion, from a piece of literature, a short story, a novel, a movie. When science makes a statement about a specific subject, there's a weight to it. Which is not the same as what fiction authors write about.

• 31:58Jesse Michels?

  Very well said. I want to go kind of in chronological order. So we talked about Operation Prato, Colares in 1977. 1986, in May, you had 21 unidentified objects spotted in four different Brazilian states. You had six fighter jets that were dispatched from bases near Brasilia and Rio, and all of them were scrambled by these objects. And you have the Air Force making a very fascinating official statement on the whole thing, saying, "These were basically aircraft flying in ways that we technically don't understand. They were flying at extreme speeds and maneuverability." What do you know about that night in 1986?

• 32:44Speaker 04

  Yes, and in fact, the fighters that we had at the time were state-of-the-art. The F-5 jets, which were American, but also the Mirage fighters, that came from a base close to Brasilia, the Annapolis Air Base, which was built very close to the capital of the country. And those jets flew from the base in Santa Cruz, in the state of Rio de Janeiro, and from the Annapolis Air Base in Goiás, in the attempt to intercept the UFOs. But after that, other pilots in the Air Force reported very similar phenomena. And long after that, and in the 80s,

• 33:30Speaker 04

  there were many reports by pilots from the Air Force that were documented. One of them, for example, was a pilot that was flying from Chile to Brazil, flying a fighter jet. And he says that an object made its approach at a very high speed, and that when he tried to approach it, the object took off, and this is documented, at a speed of 25,000 kilometers an hour, according to what the radar picked up. So the existence of the phenomena is undisputed.

• 34:07Jesse Michels?

  I sat down with Jose Manuel Fernandez, who worked for the Brazilian Air Force for 34 years and was an air traffic controller at Sao Paulo's Congonhas Airport on May 19, 1986.

• 34:24Jesse Michels?

  This was the same night as the mass sighting known as Brazil's Night of UFOs. Fernandez watched in real time as fighter jets scrambled to intercept these UFOs, only to be completely outmaneuvered and outmatched.

• 34:40Speaker 03

  So I relayed the information. I could see the fighter jet. The F-5 fighter jet.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  You know, reach supersonic speed to try and reach the object.

• 34:57Speaker 03

  But, curiously enough, and I can assure you

• 35:03Speaker 03

  that I speak the truth. Even though the F-5 was moving at supersonic speed, as the fighter jet was in pursuit of the object, I could even see the tracks that were left by the fighter jet.

• 35:24Speaker 03

  You know, the object was just playing hide-and-seek. It would just show up and appear at a very distant point. So when the F-5 would try to come closer, the object would just simply disappear, and then just reappear further down.

• 35:54Speaker 03

  What's up for debate is what these phenomena are. That's what still has to be investigated, discussed, identified. And this could also be an effort that is more in the interest of science than the interest of defense. Because really...

• 36:18Speaker 04

  When it comes to the national defense of countries, this was never reported as a risk or threat, right? Or registered as such. The information that these objects would be trying to collect or capture really cannot be verified. However, in terms of threats or risks, or even damage for the defense of Brazil, the United States, England, Russia, there's no record that any of these phenomena resulted in damage for these countries. So therefore, from the point of view of national defense, it's a permanent reason of concern, but it's not really a risk. So much so that the concerns in Brazil

• 37:02Speaker 04

  in the area of defense have subsided. But what still remains is the question, the shadowy area, what hasn't been brought to light in terms of science. To this day, from a scientific point of view, there's more dark than light when it comes to these phenomena.

• 37:24Jesse Michels?

  You've mentioned some of these UFO cases in the context of advanced technology. Do you think that some of what we've experienced maybe on this night, for example, in 1986, or some of these other Brazilian encounters, are not in fact, you know, other beings, but they're our own advanced technology? Obviously, the United States has conducted military, you know, secret operations in Brazil since World War II.

• 37:54Speaker 04

  Jesse, it's very hard to believe that the United States commands the technology to produce objects that can move at 25,000 kilometers an hour. The US sacrificed a generation of their best pilots in trying to overtake the Russians during the space race. When Gagarin, Yuri Gagarin, took his first orbit trip...

• 38:25Speaker 03

  And the world was astonished. The US entered a situation of despair and panic. Because they were surpassed in an event that gave the Soviet Union international projection. Gagarin was received in New York and Sao Paulo as a celebrity, respected, cherished, and admired around the world. To overcome this, an American author wrote a novel about this. They actually made a movie about it as well.

• 38:53Speaker 03

  They brought together the best pilots in America to an airbase. And the majority of them died trying to do it because they didn't have the equipment. They didn't have the material. It couldn't resist a spaceflight. And the widows learned of the deaths of their husbands, of these very young pilots, because they didn't have the right material. If the US in fact had the material that would resist what was seen involving these objects, they wouldn't have sacrificed their own pilots. I'm not sure if it was Paul Kennedy, a writer, who described this

• 39:35Speaker 03

  in a very nice novel about... No, it was the same one who wrote A Bonfire of the Vanities. This one that wrote a book.

• 39:43Jesse Michels?

  Tom Wolfe wrote The Right Stuff.

• 39:47Speaker 03

  Tom Wolfe. Tom Wolfe wrote the novel about the sacrifice of these young pilots for America in the space race. So I don't think that it had anything to do with espionage on part of the US or even the Russians. They didn't have that material available. With that degree of resistance that would endure that kind of speed, it would have melted by much slower speed than that. So that kind of explanation just isn't reasonable.

• 40:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I mean, even in the 80s, the US was just starting to build stealth craft. But the rumor, even the rumors of the most advanced stealth craft was Mach 4, Mach 5, which is, you know, 3,000 to 4,000 miles per hour. So 25,000 is just orders of magnitude more advanced than, you know, anything that we had. Maybe you had some unmanned drone there, but I don't know. I think it's very hard to believe. So you would agree with the Air Force Minister Brigadier Octavio Julio Morea Lima's statement that these things, we detected them, they were what they were, and that the facts are what they are, and we don't know what they are. You would agree with that, that these are sort of genuine?

• 41:07Speaker 04

  I agree absolutely, totally. We, we don't know what they are, what these phenomena are. We don't know what these objects are. And it's so hard to identify them, that science itself is unable to develop a theory on it. They can develop a theory about what they are not. They are not man-made. They cannot be man-made. Because in science, the ability to build that kind of material at that level of resistance, there's no alloy that can resist that kind of procedure of these objects and these phenomena. No man-made

• 41:48Speaker 04

  object would be able to move at that speed. I mean, look, in the 40s, in the UK, and then in the 70s, in the 80s, what kind of material would resist 25,000 kilometers an hour? Impossible. Not here, not in the US, not in Russia. Okay, but who else could have done it? Who was leading the special alloy production for rockets and spaceships? Were the US and Russia? That's it. But not at that level of sophistication, no.

• 42:24Jesse Michels?

  Some of the patterns are just remarkable. You see 90-degree turns, so it's breaking Newton's laws, conservation of momentum. And Captain Vireto recorded this thing on radar, and he recorded it Mach 15, doing a zigzag pattern.

• 42:43Jesse Michels?

  If you were elected president or vice president, would you ever sort of look into this radar data and consider exposing some of this radar data and maybe the Super 8 footage from Kalaris to the public for broader research and study?

• 43:00Speaker 04

  I would rather look into all those reports, to look at all the footage and talk and consult with those who are interested in the subject matter at hand. There is multilateral interest. We're not the only ones interested in it. There's probably this interest in identifying that phenomenon in the States, same in Russia, maybe in China as well, Germany, or the UK. So I believe that this should be the object of a multilateral agreement among countries

• 43:42Speaker 04

  with the inclusion of the two most important key elements, which are the fields of defense and of science, the world of science, perhaps an international conference to be responsible for that.

• 44:00Speaker 04

  A consultation with experts and scientists, physicists, and experts in defense, so that the world can start looking into this with more transparency, more responsibility, and more scientific curiosity, so that these phenomena are not just constrained to the world of fiction. Because fiction can explore, very successfully, the curiosity and humankind's existential concern as well.

• 44:37Jesse Michels?

  That's a beautiful vision, and I hope that happens because there are all these patterns that start to develop if you deeply research this stuff. But I think a lot of the scientific community just looks away. They don't look at the patterns. And so, one example is that, you know, the Amazon River Basin is 7,000, or I think it's 7 million square kilometers. And you have, obviously, outlets, rivers all over Brazil. And water is a very important part of the UFO phenomenon. They often seem to go, submerge into water, come out of water. There are indigenous myths going back, you know, centuries about, you know, water people and that sort of thing. So it would be very

• 45:21Jesse Michels?

  interesting to develop an international coalition and have our best and brightest scientists from all different countries, really, in an unbiased way, investigating this.

• 45:32Speaker 04

  Well, that's probably because when it comes to unknown phenomena in space, there really is no visible financial interest. Einstein got to the theory of relativity because there was a search by mankind to turn matter into energy. So you had capitalism and expansion. The system needed energy, which was scarce, but it was the main input for the development of capitalism. And scientists from all over the world were looking for a way to turn matter

• 46:14Speaker 04

  into energy. And the theory of relativity, Einstein's equation, which is comprised of "energy equals mass times the speed of light squared," is basically to turn a small particle of matter into a large amount of energy. That is what led to the theory of relativity. It has nothing to do with the need of understanding and identifying these phenomena. There's no clear financial interest in that. If there were, perhaps, the world...

• 46:53Speaker 04

  Would have mobilized academia, scientists. The United States spends over half of their budgets on military research. But this was never the focus of this investigation. So I think that, once that comes up as a possibility, maybe then, science will actually be interested, because now it's more of an existential issue, a curiosity. And unfortunately, science is funded, but it's not funded by curiosity.

• 47:32Speaker 04

  It's got much more practical objectives, and much more material drivers than scientific curiosity. However, governments can mobilize part of their science towards multilateral initiatives to first gather information. And once information has been compiled, to work out what's common, and how to move forward. Perhaps, nothing can be solved in a first conference on that topic.

• 48:09Speaker 04

  But you could establish a process to shine a light on a matter that, to this day, there's only been shadows.

• 48:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well said. And I think, as much as studying UFOs, or exotic propulsion, or some of these, you know, free energy, it seems sort of useless. I think in many ways, you know, even if you look at semiconductors, it came from a bunch of people who were considered crazy in Copenhagen, thinking about the nature of reality. And before that, they said electromagnetism was the last act. There'd be nothing, you know, after that. And then you get the quantum revolution. And even with electromagnetism, Marconi, you know, was told that he was, you know, not a very good student, and that he was crazy. That you know, you'd never be able to send electromagnetic waves as far as he did.

• 49:06Jesse Michels?

  And so I think there's a lot of value actually in government spending on science that seems useless. Because that ends up being the most useful. It's the science that is the most existential, deals with the contemplation of reality itself.

• 49:23Speaker 03

  Exactly, because

• 49:27Speaker 03

  science comes from experimentation. The steam engine has been around for 2,000 years. Someone from Egypt, from Alexandria, realized that when he heated up water, steam created mechanical energy. But that remained as it was for 2,000 years until someone in the UK said, actually, that mechanical force discovered by Heron from Alexandria, could actually move a steam loom. And then, Heron from Alexandria's steam engine became what drove the Industrial Revolution in England. And then, the Military Revolution.

• 50:11Speaker 03

  Because then the UK created the steam engine and the British Navy ruled over China and then over the world. So this transition from experimental research and knowledge to technological knowledge and economic activity is a natural step. And humankind is familiar with it. Most probably Einstein wasn't thinking about the atom bomb

• 50:40Speaker 03

  when he thought about turning matter into energy. But what happened was, just like the steam engine was turned into the steam gunboat. You see, matter, uranium, was transformed into the atom bomb, which was dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But that's how science works, for better or worse.

• 51:08Jesse Michels?

  There's a small town in southern Brazil called Varginha that has 130,000 people. And in January of 1996, something absolutely remarkable happens there. My friend is a documentarian, his name is James Fox, and he made a movie called Moment of Contact. And he's spoken to maybe 15 to 20 people between people who have seen beings and people who have seen the craft. He's triangulated the flight path. And basically, this cigar-shaped Tic Tac craft seemed to have some sort of puncture in it. Gas was coming out of the back. It crashed on something called the Maiolini Farm. An ultralight pilot named Carlos de Souza, who's also a geography teacher,

• 51:53Jesse Michels?

  held pieces of the craft in his hands. Na estrada, ele fez uma curva de 360 graus.

• 52:04Speaker 03

  Ele perdeu totalmente os motores e ele desceu. It seemed to have bounced the rear end of the craft, which was completely destroyed. There were pieces everywhere. And the front of it, which was practically half of it, slid further and ran into a tree. That's literally what it did. It ran into a tree, hit the tree and stopped.

• 52:31Jesse Michels?

  Thinking he's looking at a blimp or some kind of experimental aircraft, Carlos's first thought is that there were people inside. So he rushed to the crash site to help. And that's where he realized this wasn't a normal crash.

• 52:46Speaker 03

  The very first thing that I observed and that really caught my attention was the smell. Because at that moment, what I was expecting was the smell of diesel fuel or kerosene or aircraft fuel. It's normally a very strong smell. And on the contrary, the smell that I felt at the crash site felt like ammonia. It was very strong. I don't know what was the fuel or the substance that was there. But it was a very strong smell, something different. And it began to burn my eyes.

• 53:21Jesse Michels?

  A military convoy then pulled up, and soldiers started to secure the area. Before they reached him, something on the ground caught his eye: shiny pieces of metal from the wreckage. He picked it up. When he tried to crumple it, the material went back to its original shape.

• 53:40Speaker 03

  And a soldier, huge, really strong, probably 2 meters tall, really strong, came running, shouting, "Get out of here! Get out of here!" And just at that time, I could see quite a few pieces of debris on the ground, and I picked them up. And it was kind of curved. And then I was surprised to see how light it was. You know aluminum foil that you use to wrap up chicken to roast that you use normally in the kitchen? It was that kind of weight. It didn't weigh anything at all.

• 54:18Speaker 03

  And I thought, "Well, this is strange."

• 54:22Speaker 03

  "All right." So I said, "I'll keep it." And so I crunched it up. And so I made this kind of movement, you know, to put it in my pocket.

• 54:32Speaker 03

  And what happened was this foil or this sheet regained its shape.

• 54:37Jesse Michels?

  Sounds a lot like the Roswell crash material: foil-like, weightless, and impossible to deform. Carlos wanted to keep it, but things took a turn when he was ordered to leave at gunpoint.

• 54:50Speaker 03

  And then that soldier arrived, took his rifle, and started hitting me on the chest and saying, "Get out of here!" And I started to question him, saying, "No! There are people there who are going to need help. I'm going to help them. I'm a pilot, man. I know what they're going through." He took a step back, raised his gun, cocked it, and pointed it at my head.

• 55:15Speaker 03

  Pointing at my head, right here, and said to me,

• 55:20Speaker 03

  "I'm not asking. I'm giving you an order. If you don't leave, I'm gonna blow your brains out."

• 55:27Jesse Michels?

  And he was later apprehended by some men in dark suits. The beings then ran off. Three women who seemed very honest to me saw the beings. It was a red, you know, red eyes, brown with skin color. And it seems like one of the beings was also apprehended by the military, by a guy named Marcos Choracy, who was a soldier, and that he died due to a puncture wound from the being. And even Armando Fortunato, who did the autopsy, basically saw it was a bacterial that he had never seen before.

• 56:08Jesse Michels?

  And then all of these people at the hospital mentioned treating an ET being. There's a neurosurgeon, Italo Ventorelli, who manages the whole chain of three hospitals, Regionalis, where they held this being. He was there and he was checking the work of a guy who stitched up and actually worked on, did some basic, you know, operating procedure on this being. So you get thing after thing after thing, this whole chain of custody of this being, different witnesses. To me, it's the most interesting UFO case globally as far as documentation, because it's from the 90s and a lot of these people are still alive. What do you think about this case?

• 56:52Speaker 04

  You know that that event created a celebrity in Brazil. Its name is the Varginha ET.

• 57:01Speaker 04

  Nobody saw the Varginha ET, but everyone knows about the ET. By the way, this phenomenon, the Varginha ET, became a national phenomenon. In fact, sometimes people will kind of poke fun at it. They'll joke around about when someone becomes a celebrity or famous, they say that they're more famous than the Varginha ET. Now, even if the ET itself remains, shall we say, unseen, the phenomenon was documented. And also documented.

• 57:41Speaker 03

  Both by the military and in the field of health, the medical field, the testimonials, if not all of them, but most of them,

• 57:52Speaker 03

  are publicly well-known, disclosed.

• 57:55Jesse Michels?

  We're talking about testimony from doctors, like Dr. Italo Ventorelli, a chief neurosurgeon from Hospital Regionale. By his own account, he showed up to work like it was any other day. His colleague, another neurosurgeon named Dr. Marcos Venesis, pulled him aside. At first, he showed Ventorelli a tape, grainy footage of what looked like a small child with a deformity getting patched up after a procedure. But then Marcos Venesis insisted that Italo see his patient in person. He brings Italo into the room, where he came face-to-face with the being for four entire minutes.

• 58:37Speaker 03

  He was just lying there with a surgical drape, one hand in and the other out, like this. Nothing here, and it's peaceful.

• 58:46Speaker 03

  The bed positioned upright, like we do for neurological patients.

• 58:51Jesse Michels?

  Eventually, the reality sunk in that this patient wasn't human.

• 58:56Speaker 03

  He had arms, he had a chest. Hal's wife asked if he had nipples. I didn't see nipples. I didn't see a nipple lying there like that. Neck, very small mouth. The eyes, like this, as if they were drops, like that.

• 59:15Speaker 03

  Lilac. And very peaceful. There was no suffering there, no suffering at all.

• 59:22Speaker 03

  There was no bad smell, no odor, no nervousness, nothing diabolical. A very angelic kind of being, totally at peace.

• 59:31Jesse Michels?

  It's hard to overstate how bizarre this must have been. A neurosurgeon walking into what should be an average day at work, only to find what looks like an alien creature lying in a hospital bed.

• 59:43Speaker 03

  It's not bleeding, it's not in pain. It's breathing normally, no problem, everything's fine.

• 59:54Speaker 03

  The being looked at me, as I always say, it looked at me with a very beautiful look. Not a judgmental look, not a look of fear. It had the look of someone who understands very well what is going on. But it was a different person, a different being. It wasn't human at all. It wasn't a case of human anomalies, it was a different being. I've been dealing with humans for forty-six years, but back then, about thirty years ago, we knew how to tell when it was or wasn't a human.

• 1:00:30Speaker 04

  What's intriguing is that they didn't lead to the initiative, for example, of submitting those who witnessed the events, both in the medical and military fields, to be questioned, to help shine a light on that event, and maybe lead to potential hypotheses about what was seen, about what was witnessed, what it meant, and the possible origins. No, they hid it under a rock, so to speak.

• 1:01:12Speaker 04

  The problem was treated with a lot of secrecy, and they didn't move forward with it. The possibility to clarify what happened never took place, except for the city of Vajina itself, which turned into a sort of reference, touristically speaking. The town hall created a museum to acknowledge and value the phenomenon, to document it.

• 1:01:39Speaker 03

  And to give it a sense of permanence, to take it away from the world of fantasy and turn it into something, a phenomenon that was part of the town's history, the region's history, here in the south of Minas Gerais. By the way, the town is next door to international soccer superstar Pelé's hometown. It's close to Tres Corazones, where Pelé has a property. I've had the opportunity to go to Varginha and Tres Corazones. And in Varginha, the phenomenon is undisputed. There's no doubt about whether it happened or not. Now, officially, for example, health authorities, the medical federal council,

• 1:02:24Speaker 03

  because there were physicians involved, they'd never get involved in the records or in the investigation of the event. And the armed forces were even more prudent, especially when it came to reasons that involve issues that have to do with national security. Not just defense, but national security, which is broader.

• 1:02:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I mean, you had a base there, ESA, and it seemed like they were all kind of mobilized immediately when this crash occurred. There was actually an air traffic controller that also claimed that, he said USAF, and he says the US Air Force was involved. And then there's even a pilot in the United States that just testified before Congress. I'm sure you're aware that a lot of the witnesses came to the US. They actually came on my show and they also went to Washington DC and they spoke with a bunch of congresspeople. And you have a US pilot now saying on record that basically there were missions that were now scrubbed from the record going on between CIA, Air Force,

• 1:03:32Jesse Michels?

  and Varginha around that time in 1996.

• 1:03:36Speaker 05

  My name is Fred Clausen. I'm retired US Air Force bird colonel and fighter pilot. In order to secure a cargo plane... A specific protocol must be adhered to. The tasking would be sent to Air Mobility Command at Scott Air Force Base, Illinois, who has command authority over all US Air Force cargo aircraft and refueling tankers. A paper trail has begun.

• 1:04:13Jesse Michels?

  So do you think that the US is involved in a lot of these sort of UFO events and crashes in Brazil?

• 1:04:21Speaker 04

  The United States are involved in everything all over the world. The question should be, what isn't the US involved in? It's obvious that events of that nature would immediately pique the interest of the United States. Because, let's just work on the basis of the hypothesis that an unidentified object was in the reach of a government. That unidentified object would raise interest across many different ways. Because first, the object, what was it built from? What kind of material?

• 1:05:06Speaker 04

  You see? What was the technology that allowed that object to move at such a speed? What were the alloys that were used to build that material? What were the communication instruments? Or what was the fuel that was used in order to make that object move? All of that involves the interests of defense, of science, and obviously, the US would definitely be concerned that such an object didn't fall in the wrong hands. So either we manage to find the object, or the Russians will, the Soviets will.

• 1:05:50Speaker 04

  So it's a matter of national security, of national defense, and also of science. Because you could reveal a whole world of perspectives, of possibilities, in high resistance alloys, just based on one of such objects.

• 1:06:13Speaker 03

  Eu não estou dizendo que isso é o que aconteceu. Eu só estou dizendo que haveria um interesse natural.

• 1:06:19Jesse Michels?

  Esse interesse não pararia em metal. Se você realmente está tentando entender a tecnologia das artes, você também vai estar interessado nos ocupantes das artes. E no Brasil, há uma história paralela sobre isso, com rumores de que a criatura de Varginha foi eventualmente transferida para a custodia dos EUA.

• 1:06:39Speaker 05

  A história foi que foi levado, carregado para Campinas, para um patólogo muito famoso, um amigo do Dr. Armandus, Palhares, e que eles então o levaram para a área 51. Eu não sei. É isso que eles dizem, certo?

• 1:06:57Speaker 03

  Há uma unidade, um batalhão de exército, na cidade de Três Corações, porque o exército lá tem a escola mais antiga no Brasil para a formação de soldados.

• 1:07:11Speaker 03

  Há outra escola de soldados para a Força Aérea, mas aquela está em Guarachinguetá, no estado de São Paulo. Então, nesta base, este exército, há um batalhão, que tem sua hierarquia, que pode mobilizar, e é muito próximo de Varginha, talvez 30 km de distância. Então, obviamente, a unidade, ou pelo menos parte dessa unidade, foi para fornecer suporte a uma operação

• 1:07:44Speaker 03

  que envolve a presença e a existência desses fenômenos. Então, eu não tenho dúvida de que haja um interesse dos EUA. Mas, se isso aconteceu e como, isso ainda está enroscado em algum mistério. E há, de fato, contato próximo entre os dois departamentos de defesa, especialmente quando esse fenômeno ocorreu. Eu quero dizer, o departamento de defesa do Brasil e aquele dos EUA, eu não tenho dúvida sobre isso. Porque temos uma história de cooperação quando se trata de defesa que se remonta à Segunda Guerra Mundial. Há uma história anterior com a Alemanha, com a França, mas, à partir da Segunda Guerra Mundial,

• 1:08:29Speaker 03

  a maior cooperação militar e de defesa que nos veio foi com os Estados Unidos, porque...

• 1:08:38Speaker 04

  There was a Brazilian army division that fought alongside the American soldiers in Italy against the German forces.

• 1:08:50Jesse Michels?

  You were a Defense Minister under Dilma Rousseff in 2015, 2016. Did you look into UFOs in that official capacity at all?

• 1:09:02Speaker 04

  No, we had other concerns. Inside of the Ministry of Defense, we have a classified area that is only shared by the Minister or some experts, but it's more geared toward the area of intelligence because we have military intelligence, which pertains to the High Command of the Army, which has an extensive history. We have naval intelligence as well. I believe it works similarly in the US, and we have Air Force intelligence also. And we concentrate information in the Intelligence Department of the Ministry of Defense. And as with any other institution, we have classified data and information that cannot

• 1:09:47Speaker 04

  be made available. There is the concern regarding cybernetic threats because there is the possibility of attacks on the institutions by hackers, by people who want to eavesdrop and collect information, or simply eavesdrop, snoop, and release sensitive information. So this is probably the area where the classified information is concentrated, and in Air Force Command, which is the institution that kept a closer eye and received reports with more frequency because they were conveyed...

• 1:10:34Speaker 04

  Both from military pilots and also civil aviation pilots that many times made the reports to control towers that are also supervised and controlled by the Air Force Command. So the information therefore is concentrated in this area. Same goes for the Army because they also participated in some of these operations. So the reports come from Army officers. However, the discussion in society with regard to this agenda

• 1:11:17Speaker 04

  has decreased in importance in recent years. I'm not sure if it's only in Brazil, but at least in Brazil. We see that the discussion and the information regarding these phenomena has migrated to the civil sphere much more rather than remaining only in the military sphere.

• 1:11:38Jesse Michels?

  You said that fundamentally you do think something happened in Virginia in 1996. When you hear the testimony of Italo Ventorelli, he's this neurosurgeon, he manages a few hospitals. Seems like a very competent guy who's never made a penny off of his testimony. And he says he sat face to face with what he describes as an extraterrestrial being for four minutes. Do you believe him?

• 1:12:07Speaker 04

  Of course I believe him. Why wouldn't I? Believing that a phenomenon like this exists, of course. Because these were phenomena that had the testimony of totally credible witnesses. Three girls had no reason to make up a vision or invent a creature just to testify about it. They couldn't and they had no reason to make it up between themselves that they saw. A different phenomenon or creature that hadn't made any appearances previously or had been witnessed. Same goes for the doctor and the military officers.

• 1:12:52Speaker 04

  They had no reason to make it up.

• 1:12:54Jesse Michels?

  One of them is Dr. Armando Fortunato. He's the forensic pathologist who performed an autopsy on the soldier Marco Sharisi. Marco, who is patrolling Varginha for the being while driving his vehicle, sees the being out of the corner of his eye. He tells his fellow soldier to stop the car. He jumps out and he grabs the being in order to apprehend it and take it to the hospital.

• 1:13:28Speaker 03

  The infection he had is extremely rare, not impossible. But its virulence and severity caught Dr. Janini's attention. A scratch or some sort of contact with an extraterrestrial shouldn't be ruled out.

• 1:13:50Jesse Michels?

  That infection quickly turned lethal. After his death, his case landed on the desk of Dr. Fortunato, and the samples went to one of Brazil's most respected pathologists, Dr. Zhao Jamini. Owner of IPD Laboratory in Varginha. What they found lying in Marco's body in that autopsy was so disturbing that both men are still talking about it decades later.

• 1:14:22Speaker 03

  Dr. Janini said recently, last year, that the bacteria found in the material examined in the laboratory is not common in our country. And that the bacteria was extremely virulent.

• 1:14:43Speaker 03

  And which are very progressive, deviating from the norm of everyday practice in Brazilian medicine.

• 1:14:52Speaker 03

  And that he did not rule out, given the circumstances that had come to him, that the bacterium could be an alien bacterium.

• 1:15:01Jesse Michels?

  According to Dr. Armando, Marco's sister said that Marco had come into contact with the Varginia creature. And later, Dr. Jamini told filmmaker and friend of mine, James Fox, that he thought the bacteria had strange evolutionary characteristics.

• 1:15:17Speaker 04

  I think it was like the term used was he'd never seen an advanced bacteria of this strain behave the way it did ever before or since. And even Cesario, who was working on him, it's like I threw the kitchen sink. That should have, all the antibiotics I gave him should have saved his life, but it didn't do anything. Like it just, because I've never seen anything like it before since either. So it was an adaptation or an evolution of a particular bacteria on Earth, but that they haven't seen under that type of evolutions. Because the best way he described it to me as a neophyte, so.

• 1:15:49Jesse Michels?

  So we're not talking about an unknown life form, but a native strain acting in a completely unfamiliar, unprecedented, almost upgraded way.

• 1:16:00Speaker 05

  Pelos elementos circunstanciais que chegaram a mim, foi de uma anhão determinado na pele no cheiro espirito. Eu acho que ele foi dito do da unha doente.

• 1:16:18Speaker 06

  We have pretty good testimony from a number of witnesses on the Brazilian side that the entities, the ET, went back to America, but we don't know what happened to the craft itself. As here, any rulers of where the craft went?

• 1:16:35Speaker 03

  The information that's held by the Ministry of Defense

• 1:16:41Speaker 03

  is strictly classified. Therefore, it cannot be disclosed or released under any circumstances unless there is an international agreement. I said that if the United States discloses its information, then we also have the right to do so. But that of course remains purely hypothetical.

• 1:17:04Speaker 06

  So if the Varginia incident didn't happen, then it wouldn't be classified?

• 1:17:09Jesse Michels?

  So that tells me. Oh, James, James, he already, he already said on records, I know it happened. We just need to interpret what happened.

• 1:17:18Speaker 04

  The problem is not the existence or not of the phenomenon. The issue is explaining, identifying precisely what happened. That's the object that poses itself naturally as a challenge. The phenomenon existed, it was there. The objects were there, the creature was seen. But what was it? And where did it come from? And why were they there? What did they want from us? I believe that this is what really is of scientific interest. So that we can begin to theorize about it.

• 1:18:02Jesse Michels?

  I know you're, you're, you're speaking very casually about the phenomenon being real. And then the fact that we don't know exactly what it is. I just want you to realize how historically unprecedented and amazing, in my opinion, it is that somebody of your caliber is saying that. Because really, until this year, politicians all over the world at civilian agencies like NASA or intelligence agencies like the CIA or even elected officials were professionally gaslighting and telling basically the public that this stuff is all fake. And so I think it's amazing to have a former defense minister, current presidential candidate,

• 1:18:43Jesse Michels?

  who is kind of the ideological backbone of a lot of modern Brazilian politics. Say in such a kind of passe way, of course UFOs are real.

• 1:18:56Speaker 04

  Look, I believe that it would be the first time in history that nation states would start becoming interested in a non-existent event, you know? In something that is impossible. Why did the British prime minister organize a committee inside the Royal Air Force, inside the RAF, to study these phenomena? Why was there in the United States such dedication to the investigation of these phenomena? Why is it that in Brazil, the army and the air force created a unit to monitor these phenomena?

• 1:19:38Speaker 04

  ¿Por qué tienen pilotos de aviones de avión formidamente educados y entrenados para lidiar con todos los tipos de fenómenos de espacio aéreo? Reportados en más de una ocasión estos fenómenos en detalle. ¿Simplemente se inventaron que tenían un encuentro con un objeto que se mueve a 25.000 kilómetros por hora? ¿Por qué lo harían? Francamente, si no se inventaron... Si los médicos en el estado de Pará o los médicos en la ciudad de Virginia

• 1:20:19Speaker 04

  documentaron con sus credenciales profesionales, con sus responsabilidades profesionales estos fenómenos, la gente que los impactó ¿Por qué no darles credibilidad a estas personas? Ahora, esto es solo una parte del asunto, ¿ves? El testimonio, el testigo y la existencia del fenómeno. La otra parte, el otro asunto, es identificar el significado detrás de ellos.

• 1:20:56Speaker 04

  Esto significa que la inexistencia del fenómeno no puede ser la respuesta a ignorar la ciencia. Porque esto nos lleva de vuelta a un periodo, a los tiempos antiguos, cuando los humanos no creían que de hecho era la Tierra que revolvió alrededor del Sol. La gente no creía porque aún no lo sabía. Muchas veces la consecuencia de la ignorancia es la negación de aquello que no sabes. Así que simplemente atribuyo la negación de estos fenómenos

• 1:21:40Speaker 04

  a la incapacidad de explicar lo que significan y lo que representan. Pero todos los testimonios no pueden ser desafiados y la gente con autoridad en la vida proporciona testimonio como tenemos en todo el mundo.

• 1:22:06Jesse Michels?

  Well, I think millions of Brazilians, you know, after, hopefully this makes national headlines, will feel heard and will feel seen by their leaders around this topic. Because I think a lot of people have seen things in the sky. And in 1954, actually, in the Escola Superior de Guerra, you know, basically the National War College here, there was an Air Force captain, Olivera, and he said, "This phenomena is real." And, you know, he was very passionate about that. In the US, we have very many equivalents too. So I think a lot of people who've, you know, we have a great researcher here, Pacchini, who was very deep on the Varginha case he's filming.

• 1:22:48Jesse Michels?

  And, you know, a lot of these guys have felt very, probably unrepresented by their leaders. And so I think they'll be very, just feel very emotional and excited that somebody of your stature is sort of giving them that validation.

• 1:23:08Speaker 04

  I wasn't approached. They tried to kill me.

• 1:23:11Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:23:11Speaker 04

  Yes, I was coming. One of those.

• 1:23:14Jesse Michels?

  What did they try to do?

• 1:23:15Speaker 04

  What they did, they shot me. Shot my car.

• 1:23:18Jesse Michels?

  This is researcher Vittorio Pacchini. For others, it might be easy to casually dismiss UFOs as a modern psyop. But he remembers when investigating a crash like Varginha could get you killed.

• 1:23:30Speaker 04

  One of those days, because I used to go back and forth, Três Corações City, Varginha City. Mama was living there. I used to stay with my mama.

• 1:23:40Jesse Michels?

  So you were well-known as being the primary investigator of this, going back and forth?

• 1:23:45Speaker 04

  Yes, everybody. I was there. I went to the, I called the media to give the names who were involved, the militaries. I gave all the names, the operations. I was the one. There are videos all over the country, all over the world right now about it. So, everybody knew me. And the secret service, the intelligence service probably was paying attention in all of us. One of those nights, I was coming back from Virginia to Tres Corazones to have dinner with my mama, relax, have a good night of sleep. In the middle of the way, a car behind me.

• 1:24:29Speaker 04

  I, I, I don't speed up, okay, I, I'm nice and easy, listening to some Bocelli, okay, Laura Pausini, nice music. And then, the car didn't pass me. I, I felt that a little strange.

• 1:24:47Speaker 04

  Kept going, all of a sudden, bah, bah, hit my, my bumper, okay, my back bumper. Twice, okay, for, for the, the noise, I knew it was a, was a shot. I stepped on the accelerator to, to give me distance, okay? I got some distance from this car. I took distance so I could stop the car and, and abandon the car. Otherwise, I would be a rabbit running from the fox. Until a point that the fox would grab me. And I had a friend at that time with me all the time.

• 1:25:28Speaker 04

  It was my 357 Magnum, okay? Nobody knew, but I was at that time, the director of the Minas Gerais Shooting Federation.

• 1:25:42Speaker 04

  I had a lot of training with my 357 Magnum.

• 1:25:46Jesse Michels?

  So they were fucking with the wrong guy?

• 1:25:48Speaker 04

  Well, probably. So I, I stopped the car, got some distance, I abandoned the car and went behind the trees.

• 1:25:59Speaker 04

  Hoping that they would quit that operation. It didn't work very well.

• 1:26:04Speaker 03

  Very well, I escaped. But the car came, a black car. But since the headlights were on, I could see somebody with an arm and a gun outside the window. And he shot twice again. He missed my car.

• 1:26:23Speaker 03

  I wasn't in the car, but he missed because the first two shots hit my bumper, my back bumper. But the other two shots, they missed. I didn't. Because when they passed and I was behind a tree, right next to my car, when they passed, pa, pa, and they missed the car, they passed. I fully discharged.

• 1:26:48Speaker 03

  Six times, and I also heard ping, ping, ping. I broke the windows. And I hit, and I hit the metal. Okay, I had a speed loader. I emptied the gun. Got a speed loader. Once again, and six more. If you ask me if I killed somebody, I don't know. Because I didn't go there to check it out. Because I was afraid they were waiting for me. So immediately, I got back to my car and went back to Virginia to find a public phone and said, "Mama, they tried again. Don't worry, I'm still here. I'll wait for the sunrise and I'll be back in Tres Corazones, don't worry."

• 1:27:35Speaker 03

  The thing is, when it comes to politics, especially when the person holds office in the executive branch, they're driven by immediate events. You have to deal with practical problems, you have to solve practical demands. And that which demands no solution, because the solution doesn't involve a material economic interest, it's always sidelined or postponed. This means you have to entrust.

• 1:28:13Speaker 03

  The investigation, the debate of these issues to the people who understand that there is an importance that goes beyond the material, the importance of science, the importance of shedding light on that which, for humanity, can expand horizons that are still unknown to them, or that they still don't master. And especially the world of politics, and even the military, are driven by very immediate interests. Someone holds office and they remain there for two years, right?

• 1:28:56Speaker 03

  And two years is just enough time to pay some bills, to manage units, solve problems that pertain to human resources that they'll eventually have under their command. There's just not enough time to deal with goals and interests that aren't under their direct responsibility, and other the attainment of the solution that is possible to be provided by him. So this issue of investigating UFOs, objects, unidentified objects that appear here and there, is far removed

• 1:29:40Speaker 03

  from the demands of the authorities that tend to administrative issues and defense in governments.

• 1:29:49Jesse Michels?

  You're right, most political leaders aren't particularly academic or erudite. In the US, you had Woodrow Wilson, you know, in the early 20th century, who was president of Princeton, but since then, it's been very few and far between as far as, you know, people who are really well-read and polymathic and kind of Renaissance, you know, type people. It seems like you are. You know, I know from your son Pedro that you have a library of over 6,000 books, many of which you've read personally, you've taken notes on. He said that he was writing- You know, his thesis and he was using your books to research the thesis and that you had sort of notes, you know, all throughout the books.

• 1:30:33Jesse Michels?

  And so I think that allows you to think more broadly about some of these, you know, nature of reality questions than people who are just trying to execute on functional tasks ahead of them. And it's in the vein of, you know, Plato, who said that the king or, you know, not calling you a king, but people who are leaders should be also philosophers and they should be sort of the most learned. And, you know, I feel like in modern politics, that's kind of been divorced.

• 1:31:04Speaker 04

  Thought received its best contributions from those who dedicated themselves to abstract thought. Greek philosophers have lasted so long because they thought well beyond their everyday needs, well beyond their immediate concerns. Plato, Aristotle, even Arab philosophers, Jewish philosophers, the Romans, they were philosophers of abstraction. In other words, of general ideas. From general ideas, they attempted to explain everyday phenomena.

• 1:31:49Speaker 04

  But modern politics has lost that ability. It's all about the immediate power struggle. The abstract plane has all but been dismissed. It's all about conquering immediate power, remaining in power, working to maintain power. And anything that's not part of that is either dismissed or neglected, belittled. And it's not exclusive to Brazil. The same thing happens in the US with a few exceptions.

• 1:32:26Speaker 04

  But the democratic world lives off of managing its deficiencies, its crises, the contestation and protests of politics, the loss of quality among public people. It's lost its ability to select.

• 1:32:48Speaker 04

  In the US, which is the role model of democracy that the world looks up to with more interest. There used to be elections, but there used to also be selection parties, used to select their candidates. There was a time... The man who conquered the North Pole, Lindenberg, he used to be a celebrity, a well-known person. Had he been a candidate, he would have had 80 to 90% of votes. But he made a very interesting remark to Nazi Germany. And the leaders of the Republican Party said, "No, this could lead to conflict with Germany tomorrow.

• 1:33:31Speaker 04

  Our president cannot state such views." So he was sidelined in the convention of the Republican Party, specifically because there was, in addition to the elections, something previous, which was the selection. Politicians weren't just elected, they were selected also. There was a sort of committee, a senior group of people, more seasoned, who functioned as a sort of filter. And contemporary politics has lost the ability to filter. Democracy has become something very contradictory,

• 1:34:15Speaker 04

  because an increasingly more open democracy is a possibility. But the quality of public people unfortunately has collapsed, especially from that point of view of knowledge, the ability to perceive the world, to consult science, to support public planning and public policies. That's what's happening all over the world.

• 1:34:43Jesse Michels?

  Yes. There's a great book called "The Fall of Public Man", and it talks about how public life has become a panopticon prison. And there used to be a phrase called, you know, "Private vice, public virtue", where a lot of people who we consider great leaders, you know... Didn't have the most perfect backgrounds, but they were the man for their time, you know? And I think now today, you almost have this two-pronged thing where you have to be, you have to have a perfect personal record in order to, and so nobody would ever want to go into politics because you have to be this sort of, you know, jump through every

• 1:35:24Jesse Michels?

  hoop, start, you know, the perfect foundation here and virtue signal constantly. Or on the other side, you have reality TV stars and social media people, because they've sort of grown up in that and they don't even care. And so you, you end up with a completely intellectually vapid landscape. And it sounds like you sort of resonate with that, but that it's definitely the case in the US. And so it seems like you're, you know, an anachronism in many ways. You're, you're a rarity in today's political world.

• 1:35:56Speaker 04

  Yes, that's true. The same thing happens here because you have, in politics, there are celebrities in politics, communicators, the TikTok phenomenon. These are people with a lot of engagement from an electorate that isn't very well read, lacks education, and guide their decisions based on social media. It's based immediately on emotions. It's not based on information. The ability to move people is what drives the vote and therefore politics.

• 1:36:35Speaker 04

  And what starts to happen in the political world is this deficiency on part of the candidates. And what also begins to occur is a phenomenon that was called by an American theologian, the corruption of virtue. What's the corruption of virtue? The corruption of virtue is the use of virtuous causes for very non-virtuous objectives. So when you want to... Take oil from a different country, you don't say you want oil, you say you want democracy. So you bring down a government and you say that it was for democracy.

• 1:37:19Speaker 04

  Democracy is a virtuous cause, so people support it. But what you actually want is oil. And when you come to the Amazon and you say that you're going to defend the environment, people support that because the environment is a virtuous cause, an important one, a humanitarian cause, but it's not really about the environment. What's at stake is a different interest, maybe mineral resources, water, biodiversity, sources of energy, whatever is in the Amazon that is of interest to those people. So they resort to the environmental cause because it's a virtuous agenda.

• 1:37:57Speaker 04

  So the corruption of virtue is very present today in politics, in geopolitics, in diplomacy, in all international relations and politics across countries.

• 1:38:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, absolutely. It's very hard to criticize an NGO, a nonprofit, some sort of international organization that seems like it's here to help, when in fact, you know, those can be used in sort of predatory ways to gain leverage and, you know, to deplete resources and to do all sorts of things. I mean, one kind of interesting phenomenon that actually occurred today was just announced that the Vatican is working with Anthropic, which is this AI company in the Bay Area. And so you have this interesting idea of perhaps a religious organization weighing in on a technology and sort of, you know, attempting to possibly regulate it. Have you thought about this at all?

• 1:39:01Jesse Michels?

  Is this sort of, you know, at all interesting to you?

• 1:39:04Speaker 04

  I have thought about it and I'm very worried about it because...

• 1:39:10Speaker 03

  Three or four weeks ago, the Economist magazine, on the cover of The Economist and their main news article, talked about the five main AI organization leaders

• 1:39:26Speaker 03

  and called them "the new barons of global economy", "the men who will replace oil tycoons, steel tycoons", "these are the new tycoons", "they hold a lot of power", so this article said that they have offered a study on

• 1:39:48Speaker 03

  the risk of finance

• 1:39:53Speaker 03

  being attacked by hackers in the US, and the study shows a huge vulnerability in the financial system. The US government is very concerned about that and asked them not to publicize the study, because if it were to be made public, it would confirm to those interested in hacking the system what they were looking for, because the study would show exactly where the vulnerabilities are in the financial system. But The Economist was talking about the exponential increase in crime in the financial system that originates from AI. Artificial intelligence isn't exclusive to banks,

• 1:40:38Speaker 03

  it's also available to those who want to breach bank secrets.

• 1:40:45Speaker 03

  So what is the problem? The problem is the US government only wants a small group of companies to have access to these AI studies. These companies argue that if this happens, China would be at an advantage, because it would make available to all of their companies this information and knowledge. Therefore, Chinese companies would have an advantage over American SMEs if only the major companies had access to it.

• 1:41:17Speaker 04

  The Israeli author Yuval Harari anticipated these concerns in his two books, Sapiens and Homo Deus. So mankind is creating the ability to create life and to exterminate life. And artificial intelligence is creating. His book claims that mankind will create an AI that will be so powerful that it will want to replace the Homo sapiens. The Homo macina will want to replace the Homo sapiens.

• 1:41:56Speaker 04

  That theory, which 10 years ago might have been considered science fiction, is a real thing today. So the concern on part of the Vatican is valid. Their concern is valid because it'll involve international efforts. And there will be a dilemma between freedom and control. How do you strike a balance between these two needs? Because they're contradictory and antagonistic. Because if freedom, if you have full freedom, then there is no control.

• 1:42:40Speaker 04

  And if control doesn't have any limitations, then there is no freedom. So this is a challenge that has to be shared by the whole world. And not only governments, but religious leaders as well. That must be the concern of the Vatican. No one is exempt from this situation.

• 1:43:01Jesse Michels?

  Speaking of extremely advanced technology, a documentary just came out of the United States where you had a former CIA director Brennan and former director of national intelligence James Clapper. And you had a whole host of intelligence officials. It quoted people like David Grush, who was, you know, former National Geospatial Agency, a bunch of people down the line saying that... The US is not only involved in UFO research, but they have materials, and they have saucers and crafts and hangars, where they are working on reverse engineering these UFOs. And they have alien bodies as well that they've recovered alongside these crafts.

• 1:43:46Jesse Michels?

  Really remarkable statements. Do you believe those statements are true?

• 1:43:53Speaker 04

  I would need more information about this situation. But if unknown machinery or equipment that might provide access to material that human engineering hasn't been able to develop is in the grasp of United States authorities, that would require a level of knowledge that perhaps isn't available to us. Even if global science has made such progress.

• 1:44:38Speaker 04

  Carl Sagan himself used to say that, "When it comes to the universe, human knowledge is still a grain of sand in the desert. It's a drop in the ocean, what we know compared to what's out there in the universe." So, first of all, I think science needs to be humble. It needs to acknowledge its limitations, or for lack of a better word, ignorance, scientific ignorance. And those who have dedicated themselves to learning more need to admit that there is still so much we don't know. And also need to admit that...

• 1:45:22Speaker 04

  Politics. Once Einstein was asked why man was able to take control of the atom, but not stop the atom bomb. And this was his answer. Because politics is a much more complex science than physics. Politics is much more complex. So we need to rebuild bridges between politics and science. Because politics built on ignorance and lack of knowledge can lead us to the worst catastrophes. So science really needs, first and foremost,

• 1:46:04Speaker 04

  to acknowledge its own limitations, its own ignorance. And it needs to keep an eye on and charge the field of politics more scientific responsibility. Because otherwise, we could get to the point of no return

• 1:46:24Speaker 04

  in that relationship. And this field of artificial intelligence is precisely the most sensitive point of the situation.

• 1:46:38Jesse Michels?

  Why do you think UFO disclosure seems to be happening globally now? Do you have a take on why this whole topic has so much momentum over the last five or 10 years in a way that it hasn't had for a century? And you know, the US, the Department of War is now dropping all of these documents. That it has, you know, the Department of War has a specific website that has 500 million hits, more than the entire US population. You have congressmen in the US that take up the UFO issue, that are seeing all sorts of amazing popularity because, you know, really people grab on to the issue. But do you have a sense of why now?

• 1:47:19Speaker 04

  What caught my attention was that the controversy came up recently because of a dialogue, let's call it a dialogue, between former President Obama and current President Donald Trump. So, they had this dialogue. And I wonder, why would a former US president, from a very recent period, and the current president, who has so many responsibilities, so many tough issues to deal with, in fact, he missed out on his own son's wedding ceremony to monitor negotiations with Iran very closely

• 1:48:03Speaker 04

  and to open the Strait of Hormuz to put an end to the conflict. But he had time to have this controversy with President Obama. A former president of the United States also has a very busy schedule: conferences, talks all over the world, not only in the US. So why would they waste time or spend time with a current president at a time when the world tends to underestimate, to treat in a belittling manner this issue and saying, "Oh, it's not important, it's not relevant at all, never happened, it doesn't exist." Why would two such important men start dealing with something that didn't exist? That supposedly has no relevance, no importance.

• 1:48:48Speaker 04

  Either something happened, or something is about to happen, right? I don't know exactly what happened or what could happen. What I can say confidently and with certainty is that if the current president of the United States, who doesn't have the time to go to his own son's wedding, has the time to deal with this issue, I mean, to deal with the war with Iran or relations with China...

• 1:49:18Speaker 03

  The President of the United States doesn't deal with more than two or three problems a day. It's impossible for them to deal with more than two or three problems a day that are key to the country. I know that. I worked very closely with presidents. I was a minister. I worked in political coordination. I was a political leader. I saw the president's diary. They delegate to ministers and they use their secretaries from different departments.

• 1:49:46Speaker 03

  Science and technology, defense, state secretaries, they all have their own schedules. And the president chooses two or three issues to deal with every day. So suddenly, in the middle of all that, this subject emerges and reemerges. The subject of unidentified objects, unidentified flying objects.

• 1:50:12Speaker 03

  Within controversy between both the former and current head of state. Obviously, this requires anyone capable of rational thought to realize that something important

• 1:50:30Speaker 03

  might be said or revealed. What exactly, only he knows.

• 1:50:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and Obama sort of walked his statement back. He talked about Area 51 and alien beings underground there. But then you realize the documentary that got made that I was talking about, it's called "The Age of Disclosure." John Brennan was his CIA director and James Clapper was his Director of National Intelligence. And then Obama has a production company where he's making a movie about the first abduction in the United States, Betty and Barney Hill in 1961. So he's definitely interested in the topic. Have you looked into those sorts of phenomena, like Close Encounters of the Third Kind, where people meet beings face to face? There's one that's famous here, Antonio Villas Boas. I don't know if you ever heard of this in the 60s.

• 1:51:22Jesse Michels?

  But there are many cases where people seem to like, you know, interact with the beings and go up on the ships. Have you ever? Seen anything like that?

• 1:51:34Speaker 03

  No, I've only heard what I saw in the news. It's an expression that we use in Brazil, too.

• 1:51:42Speaker 03

  There was a phenomenon,

• 1:51:45Speaker 03

  an event close to Uberaba in the state of Minas Gerais. This very well-known event involving a group of students who were on an excursion in the mountainous region of Minas Gerais. And one of the girls moved away from the group for a while and just vanished. And the investigations never came to a conclusion about what happened to her. This young girl, she was with this party. And the local press said that it was like a phenomenon of abduction.

• 1:52:29Speaker 03

  In other words, she disappeared due to a immaterial phenomena. And this is, of course, in the literature, but it's not part of my knowledge or domain, nor is it my role to make further considerations about it, this phenomenon.

• 1:52:51Jesse Michels?

  You know, the final case I'll bring up is there's a there's a Stanford professor named Gary Nolan. He's a famous professor in the US. And I guess there was a columnist here at O Globo. His name is Ibrahim Sued. And he was mailed a little piece of a UFO because this crash was seen by this fisherman on the beach in Ubatuba. Have you heard of this case in 1957?

• 1:53:21Speaker 03

  No. But they only got a part of it, of the object? They didn't get the whole thing? And that ended up with Ibrahim Swed? And he sent this, this part of the object to this scientist at Stanford in the United States?

• 1:53:41Jesse Michels?

  Yes, exactly. So this fisherman sees this thing zigzagging, flying in a sort of a pattern. It blows up on the beach and fragments fall out. He then mails this to Ibrahim Swed. Uh, he then mails it to Jacques Vallée, the French UFO researcher I met, I mentioned earlier. Jacques Vallée is close with Gary Nolan, the Stanford professor. And he says, I want you to do mass spectrometry on it, test it. And so he tests it.

• 1:54:12Speaker 03

  What happened? Did they perform the spectrometry?

• 1:54:14Jesse Michels?

  Yes, he has it in his lab today. I've seen it actually myself. And it has 99.9% magnesium, a level of purity in the magnesium that you would never find naturally on earth. You've only find magnesium with sort of alloys. So extremely interesting fact pattern.

• 1:54:37Speaker 04

  That's very strange. And even stranger is that science did not go any further. They didn't make any statements about what this could mean or about what it represents scientifically speaking. Who could ever, here among us, build similar material or process a similar alloy? And why was this type of alloy built? What was the goal of this? These are the questions that science should be asking as an alternative.

• 1:55:17Jesse Michels?

  I agree. Speaking of controversies between present and former presidents in the United States, I think you are very interesting because you exist at the intersection between Lula and Bolsonaro. In many ways, you're kind of the intellectual fabric between them. Obviously, you worked with Lula. Now it seems like Bolsonaro is taking up some of your ideology, but very few people can be described as sort of a former socialist communist, now nationalist. So you're sort of like this walking paradox, but I think you've remained consistent in some

• 1:55:55Jesse Michels?

  underlying ideology. How do you view your role now in Brazilian politics? And how do you think this next election is going to shake out?

• 1:56:06Speaker 03

  I've always been a nationalist. My origin is nationalism, earthbound nationalism, the countryman's nationalism. I was born in the countryside. I was born with the help of a midwife. I'm not sure how to translate it to English. I was educated in a rural school. Then I attended an agricultural school, technical agricultural school, and everything pointed to the importance of national history, domestic history, the national memory, national history as an explanation of who we are. Why are we a national community? Because we have

• 1:56:48Speaker 03

  a common history. And then I joined the Communist Party because we were under the military regime. I fought for freedom of speech, for amnesty, for the freedom of association, political association, and I spent a long time there. But I'd always been a nationalist. And as I stood by these convictions, I saw that the world in the past 200 years has been guided by two types of nationalism. The nationalism that resulted in the independence of the United States, which was a struggle against colonial powers. American independence was a nationalist struggle. The independence of the countries in Portuguese-dominated America

• 1:57:31Speaker 03

  and Brazil were nationalist struggles. The independence of the Spanish colonies in America...

• 1:57:38Speaker 03

  Was a nationalist struggle. So it was the nationalism of the emerging countries against the nationalism of the colonial empires. Because Britain wanted colonies to maintain its own nationalism. And the same goes for Portugal and Spain. So recently, we saw a wave of national struggles in Africa. We're talking about the nationalist leaderships that fought for the independence of African nations. Against France, England, Belgium, Portugal, who had African colonies. The struggle in Vietnam was a nationalist struggle.

• 1:58:21Speaker 03

  The defense of the country's unity, etc. And this is a contemporary struggle. You have a dominating nationalism against a defensive nationalism. Democratic. Therefore, I always attempt to see the positive sides of both Lula and Bolsonaro. Because no one votes on a party or a candidate because of their negative aspect. Every political leader, if you look closely at their biographies, solely focusing on the flaws of their private life, no one can escape.

• 1:59:04Speaker 03

  If you look at the private life of Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, you'll hardly look and say, "No, they're perfect." What should be examined is their contribution to the development of the world. Hellenization, promoted by Alexander the Great, recognizing the importance of Greek culture. So that's the lens we should look through. Here in Brazil, why does Lula have so much prestige? Because he has a social concern.

• 1:59:32Speaker 04

  Concern with the poor, with minimum wage. And this concern should be valued. People recognize this. It's not because he was charged with corruption because of the mensalon, Operation Car Wash. People don't vote for this. And why do they vote for Bolsonaro? Was it because he didn't, didn't deal with the pandemic the way the population wanted? Because he belittled the struggle and other important issues of the country? People don't vote because of that. People voted on Bolsonaro because they see in him the concern with the yellow and green, with the national symbols. Concern with family values, which the left wing many times see as something conservative.

• 2:00:17Speaker 04

  He values family. Religious values, which are very important especially for the poor. Bolsonaro values this. So I think that it's important to bring together that which, from the population's viewpoint, is important in both figures. Being concerned with the poor is important. Being concerned with Brazilian sovereignty is important. It's important to be concerned about national values, about family values, about religious values. So my nationalism is a democratic nationalism. So it's about reducing inequalities and appreciating democracy. And this is what I mean.

• 2:01:00Speaker 04

  I'm not talking about the form of parliamentary democracy. I'm talking about the ability of a country to establish dialogue, analyzing its conflicts, and finding common solutions. Because we are united in our problems. Public safety is not a problem exclusively of the left or the right.

• 2:01:22Speaker 04

  The price of fuel doesn't have a left-wing or right-wing agenda. When you go to the gas station, you don't find a different price depending on which candidate you voted for. I think it's the same around the world. In the States, the gas price is the same for Democrats and Republicans alike. If a criminal is going to mug you, he's not going to ask, "Who did you vote for?" "Oh, you voted for him." No, he's gonna rob you, period. So if the problem unifies the country, so should the solution. I was a minister, under Lula. I was Speaker of the House when he was president. I was government leader in Congress.

• 2:02:02Speaker 04

  And I worked alongside Bolsonaro for more than 20 years on the same committee of foreign affairs and national defense. We would travel together, we'd talk. Of course, we had disagreements because I was from a left-wing party and he was more conservative. So it's important to be able to disagree, but to also find common ground, common solutions. I was Speaker of the House from a left-wing party, and I was invited by the Speaker of the House in the United States, who was a Republican, to visit. I was very well received. We had an important agenda.

• 2:02:46Speaker 04

  We talked about Brazil, Venezuela, Bolivia, and I was welcomed by the Assistant Secretary of State for South American affairs, and we became very close. After that, he became ambassador to Brazil at the time I held office as a minister. So I think this is what it's about, Jesse. You have to hold on to your beliefs, but you should place the common interest, the national interest, dialogue above everything else.

• 2:03:20Jesse Michels?

  You mentioned The Economist before. I used to read The Economist all the time, and in the kind of mid-2000s, you had a term that The Economist would always write about: BRIC, B-R-I-C, Brazil, Russia, India, China, the developing economy. And there was this narrative that all four of those countries were going to sort of overtake the developed world in a lot of ways. Lula obviously pulled a lot of Brazilians out of poverty, but you've had setbacks since the protests in 2013, and, you know, things haven't gone, I think, the way that in the mid-2000s, one would have hoped aspirationally as a Brazilian.

• 2:04:01Jesse Michels?

  How do you get back to that momentum when it comes to GDP growth and future progress?

• 2:04:10Speaker 03

  Bueno, Brasil es un país muy rico, pero también es un país cerrado, bloqueado.

• 2:04:20Speaker 03

  En términos institucionales, en Brasil tenemos las reservas minerales más grandes del mundo. China tiene tanta tierra rara porque ha examinado todo su territorio. Brasil tiene más tierra rara que China en todo su territorio. Si vas a Joraima, en el norte de Brasil, es muy difícil no encontrar tierra rara. Incluso cerca de Vajinha, en el sur de Minas Gerais, encuentras una densidad extrema de tierra rara. Si vas a Goiás, en el centro oeste del país, encontrarás tierra rara de alta densidad.

• 2:05:01Speaker 03

  Estados Unidos compró una mina única de tierra rara por 14 mil millones de reais. 2.5 mil millones de dólares. Podríamos tener 200 de estas minas autorizadas, pero todo está bloqueado: extracción de petróleo, potasio, extracción de oro. Así que es importante levantar estas restricciones en la minería, en la agricultura, en la crianza. Brasil es el mayor océano de proteína y gránulos del mundo. Brasil es el mayor fronteriza de energía del mundo. Podríamos aumentar nuestra generación de energía hidroeléctrica dos veces si establecimos cinco o seis plantas en el Amazon. No hay sistema de ferrocarriles en Brasil, no hay sistema de agua.

• 2:05:46Speaker 03

  China ha construido 50.000 kilómetros de ferrocarriles y ha estado haciendo esto durante 15 años.

• 2:05:55Speaker 03

  Y Brasil no tiene un tren único que conecte sus dos ciudades principales, Rio de Janeiro y São Paulo. No hay un tren único que conecte la capital federal, la capital de Brasil, con cualquier otra ciudad del país. Así que el país necesita cambiar. Estados Unidos conectó el Atlántico y el Pacífico en el mitad del siglo XIX.

• 2:06:15Speaker 04

  Railways across the country. To this day, we have not been able to reach the Pacific Ocean by rail. So Brazil is a country that's blocked, that needs to be unblocked, unrestricted, so that we can create a sovereign rare earth fund, issue bonds for rare earth, and even receive royalties for rare earth. And in very little time, Brazil can become a prosperous country with very good growth rates, as long as these restrictions are lifted. But for that, you need public policies, not only economic policies.

• 2:06:52Jesse Michels?

  Hmm, there are rumors now, and I guess I want to ask you. The Christian Democracy Party seems to have come up with something around expelling you. And so what do you have to say about that controversy? I know you reject the idea. And then on the backs of that, people are now saying that you might be throwing your hat in with Bolsonaro. And so I want to ask you, are you going to be running alongside Bolsonaro?

• 2:07:21Speaker 04

  No, I'm going to remain a pre-candidate. The leader of the party invited another pre-candidate, who hasn't said anything thus far. But they looked into his performance, and his polls were very low. So I'm keeping my pre-candidacy on my agenda. Because my pre-candidacy isn't just about the elections. I need to communicate my agenda to Brazil to bring back the development of this country. The agenda of national value, national defense, national science, national technology,

• 2:08:02Speaker 04

  national diplomacy, infrastructure, employment, increasing income, especially for lower-income people living on minimum wage, who can't live with dignity. That is my agenda. National unity. I don't want a fragmented country. You can win an election with a polarized country, but you'll never govern a polarized country. You'll be wasting energy. And you need to gather energy, creativity, and enthusiasm.

• 2:08:40Speaker 03

  Of people around hope. What do I mean by hope? Economic development leads to hope.

• 2:08:49Speaker 03

  Development leads to discipline. When people see the possibility of doing better in life, they study. They look to become more qualified, to go and look for a better job for their lives. And when there's no development, when there is no hope that, as I said, leads to discipline, what you get instead is despair. And despair is the road to perdition, especially among the young. That's what drug trafficking in the Amazon is all about. It's an alternative for young people who don't have an economic alternative. They live off government aid. A very large part of the population in the Amazon

• 2:09:34Speaker 03

  depends on government aid because there's no economic activity there.

• 2:09:40Speaker 03

  So we need to pick that up again across the country. We need to bring the country together around shared objectives.

• 2:09:50Speaker 03

  In the 19th century, Brazil became independent as a monarchy. And that monarchy protected the unity of the country because republics would have segmented Brazil. So we had a monarchy that brought the country together. But there were still civil wars, local leaders who wanted their own republics.

• 2:10:18Speaker 03

  The emperor, at a certain point, invited the most important of those leaders and said, "I want to have an administration that will reconcile people. I want to have a ministry that will reconcile both parties. I want you to have an administration with both parties." So there's a huge division in Brazil now. It's almost like a cyber-civil war. It's a war in social media. It's online, but it's civil war. There's a lot of hatred, a lot of intolerance. We need to put an end to that so that this country's energy can go towards building something. Of course, there will be lots of disagreement on many points. But will we only have disagreements?

• 2:11:02Speaker 03

  Is there nothing that brings Brazilians together? What unites Brazil? What brings us together? Business owners, workers, the middle class, academics, the military, religion? For the country to get back to growing, we need to decrease inequality. We need to place value on education. I think we can bring this country together. A country that places value on democracy. Democracy is the ability to talk. Okay, you think you're left wing, you think you're right wing, but the country is above that. Citizens are not left or right wing. They want a solution to their problems. They want to be able to pay their bills at the end of the month, to pay for groceries, to make rent,

• 2:11:46Speaker 03

  to pay for their car, their children's school, the pharmacy. That's what they care about. They don't care if an administration is left or right wing. They want an administration that can solve their problems. Can we offer them this administration? So let's see. You're in favor of two people of the same sex being able to get married, and you're against it. Okay, let's talk about it. Okay, you think that there is racism in this country? Fine, let's talk about it. But that cannot be above the common shared interest. I believe that this is the political solution. The economic solution is to unblock the country. The political solution is to unite the country around everything that can bring people together.

• 2:12:31Speaker 03

  Unite people.

• 2:12:34Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. Have you studied other success stories when it comes to governance over the last 70 years? Places like Singapore with Lee Kuan Yew, or Taiwan, you know, Ching Kai Shek, where you have massive growth? And do you think like a certain industry can be what reboots growth here in Brazil? You mentioned rare earths. Obviously, that's a key area of contest between the US and China, specifically when it comes to refinement. Is that it? Or do you have other ideas for how Brazil really gets back to high-growth territory?

• 2:13:13Speaker 04

  Eu tenho um exemplo interessante nos Estados Unidos, que foi a escolha de Lincoln. A escolha de Lincoln como candidato do Partido Republicano em uma convênio quando ele não era o candidato mais forte. Havia dois governantes que se opõem um ao outro, eu acredito, que eram candidatos muito mais fortes do que Lincoln. Mas o conflito entre esses dois... ...suaídos fez Lincoln se tornar a solução de consenso. Ele era um advogado que perdeu uma eleição no Senado. Isso foi descrito no livro, e há um filme sobre a sua história, A história de Lincoln.

• 2:13:55Speaker 04

  E o que ele fez depois de ser eleito foi pedir para seus competidores que governassem com ele. E ele deu o Departamento Estadual a um, o Tesouro ao outro. As posições-chave foram dadas a aqueles que competiam contra ele na...

• 2:14:12Speaker 04

  ...convênio. Então os Estados Unidos tem esse exemplo de unidade e de disputa. Por exemplo, o que aconteceu com o movimento da independência. Havia diferenças-chave

• 2:14:28Speaker 04

  entre os líderes que levaram o caminho para a independência dos Estados Unidos. Eu acabei de ler a biografia de Alexander Hamilton, e ele fala sobre essas diferenças. Mas foram abordadas por um interesse compartilhado, um interesse comum, e o mundo inteiro é assim. Se você olhar para qualquer processo de transformação no mundo, há sempre conflitos, disputas, mas há também unidade. E a unidade deveria proteger o que está no interesse do país. O Brasil tem muitas oportunidades de ter relações com os Estados Unidos e com a China, mas aqui eles querem escolher um lado.

• 2:15:12Speaker 04

  Ou estamos parados com os Estados Unidos e vamos seguir a agenda do Partido Republicano, e o outro lado com o Partido Democrático.

• 2:15:23Speaker 04

  Either with the US or with China. Why does Brazil have to make that choice? Between the US or China, Brazil should choose Brazil. Why is that? Because we have a very powerful bond with the US. They were the first country in the world to recognize our independence. Our emperor was the first foreign head of state to visit the United States. The first trip of a US secretary of state abroad was to Brazil.

• 2:15:57Speaker 04

  So we have a longstanding relationship. Culturally, we're very close. Every Brazilian, with a certain degree of education, is very fond of American literature. Walt Whitman dedicated a poem to Brazil's proclamation of independence. A poem dedicated to both constellations. We have a constellation on the Brazilian flag, and there is a constellation on the US flag. And that was celebrated by the greatest poet in the United States. We always had the habit of keeping up with the literature of the United States.

• 2:16:40Speaker 04

  Reading, for example, Mark Twain, Jack London, American poets, and more recent literature. We all admire literature from the 30s, the 40s. All of this, American movies. But of course, we also have our differences. Why? Because the US is a powerhouse with geopolitical interests around the world, and here too. So

• 2:17:11Speaker 04

  we were recognized by the US as an independent country, and the following year, there was a rebellion. A successionist rebellion in the Northeast, and the US supported that. When the leader of the succession was killed, an American citizen was also killed, who was encouraging the separation in Brazil. And the emperor reacted violently, with a lot of repression. And that created a huge diplomatic standoff, because the US government, the embassy, and the consulate tried to put a stop to it. In 1964, we had a coup in this country with support of the US. But right after that, the military cut relations with the US because of the nuclear program and the space program.

• 2:17:56Speaker 04

  In the Second World War, our main agreement was made with the United States. We gave the busiest airspace to the US, which is in the Northeast. We provided rubber to the Allies. There couldn't have been a war without rubber. They needed steel, oil, and rubber. You can't build a warship, a plane, or a tank without rubber. Japan took the rubber from the English in Asia. Roosevelt, President Roosevelt, came to Brazil twice. Once to Rio to meet with Vargas and to Rio Grande do Norte. Vargas never left Brazil to travel to the US, but Roosevelt came here twice,

• 2:18:37Speaker 04

  and he came specifically to ask for rubber and an airbase. Also because Germany had a plan to invade the Northeast of Brazil to stop support from leaving Brazil to go to the Allies in Asia and Africa. So we've always stood together, fought together, differences, disputes, and unity. And we should remain united in the interests that we share. We shouldn't do anything to go against the United States, and we shouldn't accept anything from the United States that goes against our interests. It's like having a draw. Okay, what are our shared interests here? We are committed...

• 2:19:22Speaker 04

  This is what I said when I was the Speaker of the House when I visited the US. We are committed to putting our best effort into fighting drug trafficking. That is what we'll do. And secondly, putting our best effort into making sure that there are no terrorist bases on our border or in our country.

• 2:19:42Speaker 03

  And we will not accept US military bases in South America. Because that's going to create a difficult situation. One country is going to want an American base. Another one's going to want a Russian base. Another one is going to want a Chinese base. And it's going to be a mess.

• 2:19:59Speaker 03

  So we should have good relations with the US and with China. China doesn't fund any NGOs here. They have their interests here. Food security, rare earth, infrastructure, energy. Those are Chinese interests. Brazil sends more than a third of its exports to China. So Brazil must also have a relationship with China that respects Brazilian sovereignty. And the same with the US. Whatever is beneficial to Brazil and to China and is a shared interest, we should do. There's a lot that Brazil can do, both with the US and with China. Brazil has everything the world needs. Food security, we have it.

• 2:20:43Speaker 03

  Energy security, we also have it. Mineral, strategic mineral resources like rare earth, we have it. Biodiversity for the economy of the future, we have it. What are we missing? We just need to choose in accordance with what fate has given us. That's what we need.

• 2:21:06Jesse Michels?

  Hmm, yeah, that's a beautiful vision. I want to switch back to UFOs briefly and say that actually Brazil is very forward on this subject. As of 2009, there was an ordinance called 551 GC3. And it basically, any military branch that sees a UFO, they are mandated to give that information to the Central Aerospace Defense Command. And so I want to ask, did you ever look into that in 2015? And if you were elected president now, would you look into this?

• 2:21:41Speaker 04

  This ordinance has the objective naturally of concentrating information and the ability to make decisions regarding the behavior and actions surrounding these events in the Air Force, which is the right institution to adopt mechanisms to act because they have what is required. It shouldn't be the Navy, or the Army, or the intelligence service. The first action should be taken by the Air Force, naturally.

• 2:22:25Speaker 04

  And today, in the world, there is a change going on. There's no longer just one Air Force. They've been turned into aerospace forces. Speaking of which, military attaches, when I was Minister of Defense, wouldn't introduce themselves as Air Force Attaches. You have the Navy Attache, you have the Army Attache, and there was the Aerospace Forces Attache. Brazil still hasn't adopted that nomenclature, but it will have to because with the militarization of aerospace or the possibility of the militarization of aerospace,

• 2:23:10Speaker 04

  we're not just talking about air defense. We're talking about aerospace defense. And as such, it's going to have to deal with predictable phenomena, known phenomena, but also unpredictable, unknown phenomena. It's not a choice, it's a given. Either you prepare for that, or you cannot fulfill your duties, your mission in the defense of space and in the defense of aerospace.

• 2:23:51Speaker 04

  This is the correct and up-to-date nomenclature.

• 2:23:57Jesse Michels?

  You mentioned rare earths being present near Virginia. Which rare earths specifically? Which, uh, yeah, rare earth minerals?

• 2:24:07Speaker 04

  It's rare earth and strategic minerals that are found in the south of Minas Gerais. It's a quadrangle that goes from Posos de Caldas to the municipality of Andradis. There you can find the important presence of exploration of these minerals. Also in the area of Minas Gerais, which is known as the Minas Triangle, you can find niobium, which is very important in the fabrication of high resistance alloys for aerospace applications.

• 2:24:51Speaker 04

  And the information from the geological reports about the presence of these minerals in the region of Virginia points to rare earth of very high density and very high quality that supersedes anything that has been explored in the world today. Very close to Minas Gerais, we have Posos de Caldas City. Okay, around that area, it's plenty of uranium. And they process uranium to make the yellowcake. The yellowcake is the last stage of uranium before you turn it into plutonium. Or enriched uranium.

• 2:25:35Speaker 04

  Yes, right next to Virginia, for example. But it's not only uranium. There's a lot of rare elements, okay, in the whole Minas Gerais state. And if, when people ask us, "Why Minas Gerais?" Well, the answer for us is quite obvious, because there's a lot of rare elements. You can find all of them, most all of them, of the periodic table of the chemical elements. You will find in Minas Gerais. And you'll find many caves. We have more than 4,000. Different caves around Minas Gerais states with all these minerals.

• 2:26:17Speaker 04

  For us, there's a close relationship between the UFO phenomenon and those rare elements, minerals in the whole state. Because it's incredible. It's the center of the UFO event in Brazil, although all over the country, we have many accounts. But in Minas Gerais is the center.

• 2:26:38Jesse Michels?

  It seems like UFOs often show up around areas with rare earths. Sometimes they're uranium mines and, you know, rare, yeah, rare minerals and elements that you wouldn't find elsewhere. And kind of geomagnetic anomalies present. And this is throughout, you know, there's a famous case of sixty-one schoolchildren in Rua, Zimbabwe, seeing a UFO land and a being coming out, and it's right next to uranium mine. And that's very, very common.

• 2:27:06Speaker 03

  Well, according to legend, the territory which today is the state of Joraima on the border of Guyana and Venezuela is very rich in rare earth and strategic minerals.

• 2:27:21Speaker 03

  So it is believed that when these American satellites that can perform these scannings, searching for minerals all over the planet, when they cross over the state of Joraima, the signal is so strong from the presence of rare earth that the satellite shakes violently, almost to the point of dropping because of the vast presence of rare earth in Joraima. So Brazil, here's the thing, it's all under indigenous reservations. Wherever there's minerals and rare earth, there has been demarcation campaigns on the part of NGOs on indigenous land.

• 2:28:06Speaker 03

  And if it's indigenous land, you can't explore in it, touch it. It's frozen, so to speak. And it can't be used for economic purposes. But there's a lot of that in Brazil. You have that presence in the north, for example. You have very important mineral reserves. And this is because... When the mineral deposits were formed on the planet, this happened during the period that geologists denominate the pre-Cambrian era. And these deposits are not made up of only one type of mineral. They're what you call associated minerals.

• 2:28:49Speaker 03

  So much so that in Brazil, these reserves are called national reserves. So you take the mineral that has the highest presence, for example, copper. But it's copper and associated minerals. Because with copper, you have gold, you have tungsten, a variety of other minerals that can be found with a very high density. And Brazil, one time in the Institut de France in France, talking to a physicist, he had a map of minerals in the Brazilian Amazon. So I asked, "How did you make this map?" And he said, "We didn't make this map in Brazil, we made it in Africa." Because you know, at that time, the two continents were joined together. You didn't have the Atlantic Ocean separating the two.

• 2:29:34Speaker 03

  So African reserves were developed at the same time as the Brazilian reserves. So if we take into consideration that they had a greater presence, the French, in Africa, which is on the same parallel of the Amazon, we'll have the same in the Amazon as well. So I said, "Very interesting." So whenever Brazil decides to explore these minerals, these French companies will already have this information available.

• 2:30:07Jesse Michels?

  I want to end on a more fun note, which is you're a big football fan. And we're here in Sao Paulo, where you have the team Palmeiras, which you are as deep on the history of as honestly anyone. You've written actually like a book about this 1945 trophy that you found that was covered in dust. Some legends like Roberto Carlos and Cafu have come through this organization. I want to ask you, it's, you know, on everybody's minds right now. In this most recent World Cup, Neymar is being called back. The once kind of wonderkind legendary football player is obviously very controversial. And he's being called up to be on the Brazilian national team. Do you have an opinion on that?

• 2:30:54Speaker 04

  One has to understand what soccer means to Brazil. Soccer is much more than a sport. Soccer is a phenomenon that challenges sociologists, historians. Why is soccer so dear to Brazilians? Why is it so beloved? Even for people who can't go to stadiums to watch games, because they're poor, they can't pay for tickets. But they love soccer, the teams. In my view, it's because soccer was the first way of rising up the social ladder for poorer people. At a time when the country gave no opportunity for a young, black man.

• 2:31:37Speaker 04

  Misogenated, mulatto, from the impoverished outskirts, because he couldn't make it to university. There was no economy that would give him the opportunity to become middle class, for example. He was condemned to poverty, condemned to scarcity. And then along came soccer, which promoted and gave the young black man, mulatto, poor, for the first time in history, validation, admiration, respect. So when the first young black man had a position in society, it was through soccer. And poorer people came to see in soccer this virtue

• 2:32:20Speaker 04

  of being a democratic sport. A sport that really opened up opportunities for those who didn't have any. So people embraced the sport. It became a national phenomenon, unique. The teams in Brazil are not restricted to states or cities, like they are in Spain. The team is from Barcelona, or Madrid, or Catalonia, or the team is from Castilla, or Basque Country, or Galicia. Not here. Here the teams are national institutions. And people identify with the sport of soccer because of these virtues.

• 2:33:02Speaker 04

  It was the first institution that promoted the young black man.

• 2:33:09Speaker 04

  That recognized his talent, his capacity. Only a young man from the middle class could receive this kind of recognition. Soccer created this opportunity. And it became the sport of the workers, of the downtrodden, of the immigrants, of the Italians, for example, who created Palmeiras. The Italians suffered a lot of discrimination here by the old elites of the country. So they created these teams, the rail workers. The rail workers went and created their own teams. So I myself, as a very young man, still living in the countryside of Alagoas, started supporting Palmeiras. Because next to Santos, which had Pelé, and Botafogo, which had Garrincha,

• 2:33:54Speaker 04

  it was one of the country's best teams. And in 1951, or rather, in 1945, there was a classic match between Corinthians and Palmeiras in São Paulo to raise funds for the Communist Party campaign. So I wrote a book called The Red Game. And why were they raising funds for the Communist Party? It was a recognition of the role of the Soviet Union in the Second World War, the effort of the Allies. The Communist Party mobilized people to go and fight the Nazis and Nazi Germany. So there was this recognition. The team managers were not a part of the party.

• 2:34:39Speaker 04

  They merely wanted to pay this tribute and raise funds for the party. In 1951, there was a championship that was organized by FIFA with all the big teams from Europe. And Palmeiras participated in this tournament and won. So they asked FIFA to recognize this as the first...

• 2:35:03Speaker 03

  Club World Cup. And some time passed with FIFA hesitating to make a decision. And when the World Cup was finally held in Brazil, it was Palmeiras' centennial year. So FIFA brought together a committee meeting, and finally, they recognized this title. But above all, I have a deep admiration, a deep appreciation for the role soccer played in Brazil as an institution of social change, of validation of poor people, validation of the dispossessed, and of promoting the unification of the country. It is truly a national passion.

• 2:35:47Speaker 03

  And Neymar is Brazil's most recent idol. He can still play in this World Cup. And we have high hopes that he's going to be in good physical condition and that he can fulfill such an important role in the team and that Brazil can keep its status as the country that participated in the most World Cups and that won the most.

• 2:36:18Jesse Michels?

  Well, there you go. I'm sure, you know, the whole country is waiting to see what happens. And you answered that in a way that is kind of worthy of how religious the following is of, you know, Brazilian football. So thank you so much for your time, Mr. Rabello, Minister Rabello. This has been an honor for me, and I really appreciate just how forward-thinking you are on a topic that most politicians aren't really able to speak eloquently about. So it's, it's, it means a lot. And hopefully, this is just the, just the start, and maybe you get elected, and, you know, this is the beginning of a much longer conversation.

• 2:36:58Speaker 03

  Thank you so much for the visit, for interviewing me.

• 2:37:04Speaker 03

  And I hope that you can take from Brazil, in addition to information, a good impression of our country, our history, our culture, our cuisine. And that when you go back to the United States, you'll feel the urge to come back as soon as possible to Brazil. Thank you very much.

• 2:37:58Jesse Michels?

  If you want to access our episodes 24 hours early and want to watch them completely ad-free, please consider supporting the show by joining our YouTube membership. Just click the link in the description to join today. Your support helps us so much and it allows us to keep making the show and go deeper into the kinds of stories we care most about. And a little early access and not getting bogged down by ads is kind of a cool perk, so join today. If you've made it this far in the show, then I know you care enough to hear about this. Our show, American Alchemy, is growing super fast. It's bursting at the seams. We are looking for an amazing editor to join the team. If you're an experienced YouTube editor, podcast editor, trailer editor,

• 2:38:43Jesse Michels?

  or documentary-style editor, maybe you're even a traditional Hollywood editor and you're just really into our content and you want to work on some of the most mind-bending stories in the world, we really want to hear from you. We're especially looking for people who are deep into the content and who have a real editorial eye. Someone who can dig through long and sometimes dense conversations, find the most powerful... Moments, build tension, create great hooks. Basically, people who can turn these raw conversations into very high-quality, almost cinematic episodes. Strong technical skills are a prerequisite, but especially for the documentaries we make, we really need somebody with taste, who has strong instincts around pacing, music, sound

• 2:39:27Jesse Michels?

  design, story structure, you know, all the things. And big bonus points if you're genuinely into UFOs, consciousness, frontier science, and big questions about the nature of reality. So if you're a strong, experienced editor, and you know how to keep audiences engaged, and you want to work with us on some of the coolest stories in the world, please email all your relevant work and your application to apply@jesse Michels Media dot com. And if you have a friend who would be great for this role, please let them know. Thank you so much, and we look forward to hearing from you and maybe working with you. Mr. Monopoly here. Miss me? Monopoly is back at McDonald's with millions of prizes.

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