Kimberley Chambers Swims With Sharks: The World’s Greatest Female Marathon Swimmer On Turning Adversity To Advantage

Close your eyes and imagine yourself 30 miles off the coast of San Francisco, swimming in the freezing cold, shark-infested waters famously dubbed the Red Triangle. No wetsuit. In the middle of the night. Most would call this lunacy. Kimberley Chambers calls this home. This week's guest is one of the most accomplished record-setting marathon open water swimmers in the world. Her story is incredibly inspiring, but not for the reasons you might imagine. Her story is inspiring because just nine years ago, Kim was not a swimmer at all, suffering a life-threatening accident that nearly claimed her leg and her overall enthusiasm for life. The morning started out like every other morning. The New Zealand born former ballerina and rower turned software executive left her San Francisco apartment and accidentally tripped, toppling down a treacherous flight of stairs. We saved your leg. But it’s unlikely you will walk again. The doctor's verdict presented Kim with a choice: accept permanent disability. Or prove them wrong. Needless to say, she chose the latter. After countless surgeries and an excruciatingly prolonged rehabilitation, a friend encouraged her to try swimming. Although foreign to the water, she immediately took to it. A ticket to freedom. But the real turning point came the moment she first jumped into the frigid San Francisco Bay. In an instant, she had found sanctuary. To this day, it's a love affair with cold water and the tight-knit community of like-minded souls who embrace it that changed everything about her life and how she lives it. An inner fire ignited, Kim began to channel her newfound passion into a series of death-defying, envelope-pushing open-water marathon challenges that have redefined the limits of human potential and transformed her into the elite athlete she is today. Among Kim's many accomplishments: * In 2014, she became the 6th person (and 3rd woman) in history to complete the Oceans Seven – the marathon swimming equivalent of the Seven Summits mountaineering challenge, with each of the 7 swims chosen for their treacherous water conditions and potential wildlife risks; * In 2015, she set a new world record becoming the first woman to swim 30 miles from the shark-infested Farallon Islands off the coast of San Francisco; * In September 2016, Kim attempted a non-stop 93 mile swim from Sacramento to Tiburon. However after swimming over 24 hours and 54 miles, sustained 30 knot winds rendered it unsafe for her to continue; * And just two months later, Kim led an international team of swimmers to complete an unprecedented historic swim across the Dead Sea to raise global awareness around the environmental deterioration of that critical body of water. This is a conversation about the boundaries of human potential. It's about the capacity to turn tremendous adversity into boundless opportunity. It's about finding joy and adventure outside the comfort zone. It's a conversation about reframing identity to step into and own — really own — our most authentic, fully actualized selves. And I suppose it's about how to not get eaten by a shark. Delightfully engaging, ever humble, and beautifully human, Kim embodies everything you seek in a modern day female super hero. It was a pleasure to spend time with her and it is my hope that our conversation will leave you deeply reconsidering the limits of your own potential. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  We all have fears, and they're different for all of us. But I can guarantee that when you pick a fear, you know, we all have many fears, pick a fear and decide to challenge it face-on, and you get to the other side, I guarantee you will have a transformative experience that will serve you for the rest of your life. Because again, life is not smooth sailing. And I feel like through these experiences, I've been able to equip myself with skills and lessons in how to deal with certain things. Fear is a motivator for me. If I am afraid of something, I know I have to do it.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Doesn't make it easy, and it's still scary. But I know, as I said earlier, that I know from experience now that...

• 2:04Speaker 01

  The treasure in life lies exactly right over the other side of where you are most fearful and where you are most uncomfortable. And that's magic. When you can experience it for yourself, it's magic. And so for me, fear is a motivating factor for me.

• 2:25Rich Roll?

  That's Kimberly Chambers and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:38Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. You ever wonder what it feels like to swim through freezing cold, shark-infested waters in the pitch black dark of night without even a wetsuit, mind you? Well, maybe you have, but probably not. Either way, I think you're going to be amazed. I think you're going to be uplifted by the incredible story of this week's guest, Kim Chambers. Kim is one of the most, if not the most accomplished and inspiring, record-setting marathon open water swimmers on the entire planet Earth. And we have a fantastic conversation. Before we get into it, thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you for subscribing to the show. Thank you for sharing it with your friends and on social media. Thank you

• 3:21Rich Roll?

  for clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. And thank you so much for supporting my work on Patreon. I love you guys. I got a bunch more cool stuff I want to say about Kim before we get into it today. She's just super amazing and this episode is fantastic. Again, a great conversation, but first.

• 3:47Rich Roll?

  Okay, Kim Chambers. Who is Kim Chambers? Well, Kim Chambers is a New Zealand-born and bred former ballerina. She was a rower at UC Berkeley and she's somebody who discovered swimming only six years ago while she was rehabilitating from this crazy devastating, life-threatening leg injury. And I think it's fair to say that from the first moment she jumped into the frigid San Francisco Bay down at Aquatic Park. She knew that was it. She was home. She fell in love with the cold water. She fell in love with the community of like-minded souls and was just magnetized by the pull

• 4:26Rich Roll?

  of this crazy subculture. And then she set about pushing the envelope of what is humanly possible when it comes to marathon open water swimming. Amongst some of her many accomplishments, some of her many palmeras, in 2014, Kimberly became only the sixth person and third woman in history to complete something called the Oceans Seven, which is the marathon swimming equivalent of the Seven Summits Mountaineering Challenge. It's basically seven swims that are each chosen for their treacherous water conditions and potential wildlife risks. It's just an insane adventure that we get into in the podcast. And then in 2015, Kimberly

• 5:09Rich Roll?

  set a new world record by becoming the first woman to swim 30 miles from the Farallon Islands off the coast of San Francisco. This is an area of the Pacific known as the Red Triangle because it is the largest concentration of great white sharks in the world. So wrap your head around that. And that's a swim that took her 17 hours. And then in 2016, Kim joined an international team of swimmers to complete this unprecedented historic swim across the Dead Sea, all to raise global awareness around the environmental deterioration of that critical body of water. So it was an absolute pleasure to sit down with Kim

• 5:48Rich Roll?

  in her home in San Francisco. She's absolutely delightful. She is inspiring. She is humble. She is very human. She's essentially everything you want in a modern day female superhero. So this is a conversation, of course, about her story. It's about the boundaries of human potential. It's about how to turn adversity into advantage, how to reframe setbacks as opportunities. It's about personal growth, shedding old skin, stepping into your most authentic, fully actualized self. And I guess it's about how to not get eaten by a shark, right? So listen up and enjoy.

• 6:35Rich Roll?

  Thank you so much for inviting me into your home.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:38Rich Roll?

  Here in San Francisco, you have this insane view of the Golden Gate Bridge right out your window.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Yep, it's a pretty special view. Yeah.

• 6:45Rich Roll?

  And it's just a hop, skip and a jump up the hill from Aquatic Park, right? Your home training ground.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Yes, I live this close by design.

• 6:54Rich Roll?

  So you just, do you just walk down there in the mornings or in the evenings?

• 6:57Speaker 01

  On the weekends I do. It's just a lovely 10 minute walk. But on, on the weekdays, you know, I'm training in a pool and then I'm in the bay, I'm all over the place.

• 7:06Rich Roll?

  What pool, what's your home pool?

• 7:08Speaker 01

  So I, you know, we're in San Francisco right now, but I drive up to Marin most mornings and train with North Bay Aquatic Masters. It's at Redwood High School. I love the coaches and people are like, why do you drive all the way to Marin when there are pools here in San Francisco? And, but for me, it's, uh, it's about the camaraderie.

• 7:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Do you know Chris Houth?

• 7:29Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 7:30Rich Roll?

  He coaches, he's my coach, but he coaches masters up in Marin. I don't know what pool he uses.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Okay. Yeah, this is at Redwood High School. And it's just, I mean, the coaches make fun of our lane. We're lane five and, you know, we talk a lot, but we swim a lot. The other day he like put his head over and he was like, uh, lane five, um, party of four, your table's ready. They were like, we're just, cause we're just talking all the time, but.

• 7:53Rich Roll?

  Well, that's nice because what you do is such a lonely solo pursuit, right? To be able to have some community.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, for me, that's, that's the key to all of this is community.

• 8:04Rich Roll?

  Well, let's, uh, let's unpack it. I want to get into it. Your story is fascinating. I've been following you for quite some time.

• 8:12Rich Roll?

  And I think we made an effort to try to hook this up a while back. Like I, I took a shot over the bow a while ago and just said, I want to talk to you. I don't remember when that was. And then I was, I had lunch with Adam Skolnick, our mutual friend. He's like, oh, you're going to San Francisco. You gotta, you gotta talk to Kim. And I was like, that's right. I do. I need to follow up on that. So I'm glad. That we could make this happen.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I'm just delighted to have you here. So thank you.

• 8:35Rich Roll?

  Well, the things you've done are extraordinary, you know, world's greatest marathon, open water swimmer. You've done so many and the challenge for me interviewing you is to not make it like, then you did this and then you did that and then what happened here? You know what I mean? But I think in order to kind of create context around the magnitude of the things that you've done, it behooves us to kind of take a step back and, you know, unpack the journey that got you to this place. Because you didn't grow up on swim teams.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 9:03Rich Roll?

  Swimming wasn't your thing.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 9:04Rich Roll?

  Grew up in New Zealand, right?

• 9:06Speaker 01

  I grew up on a sheep and cattle farm.

• 9:07Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  In the middle of nowhere.

• 9:09Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:10Rich Roll?

  And so you initially, you were a ballerina. That was your thing, right?

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I danced for 15 years, actually, under what's called the Royal Academy of Dancing. And I sat exams, I traveled around the country, performing on stage. It was a huge part of my life. And, you know, I think that it's given me a lot of skills for marathon swimming. You know, there's definitely this discipline that we all know about ballerinas, so.

• 9:43Rich Roll?

  And that was, I mean, that was the dream to be a professional, I mean, what do you call it? Professional ballerina?

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And then I, you know, I had a growth spurt. I got too tall and then it was sort of the time that it took for me to, you know, study ballet and school and have some sort of social life. There was a point where I had a sort of a love hate relationship with it because you see all your friends out having fun and, you know, you're stuck in a studio.

• 10:11Rich Roll?

  That's true of any, you know, elite athlete who's trying to master their craft, right? As a young person.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:17Rich Roll?

  And I experienced that as a swimmer. I mean, of course, you hear the stories of gymnasts and tennis players who are, you know, sort of locked up in these, you know, prisons of training in their youth, right? I mean, is that, was it that intense for you?

• 10:30Speaker 01

  I mean, it sometimes it felt that intense. But once I sort of, you know, when I was sort of, I got 15 was when I really sort of sprouted and I'm 5'10" now. Then it was sort of clear that, you know, that wasn't going to be my path. But I completed.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  All of my exams so that I became qualified to teach. So I danced until the age of seventeen. Um, yeah, and it's, uh, you know, it was quite a journey. You learn a lot about yourself. Um, in ballet especially and

• 11:02Rich Roll?

  Like what?

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Well, it just, it looks so effortless, but it is quite the opposite. And, uh, but there's been, uh, you know, what I learned as a ballerina, um, has really helped me with my swimming. But there have been a lot of differences that I've had to adjust to. Um, you know, as a ballerina, there was, when I was dancing, there was no concept of really fueling your body. Or really treating your body as this, um, machine. It was just, you just wore it down.

• 11:34Rich Roll?

  That's interesting because you obviously want it to perform at its peak and it's such a perfectionist pursuit, right?

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And then, you know, I have an exceptionally high pain tolerance and whether that's just something that I've always had or whether that was through, you know, years of, of ballet. I mean, there were times when I would take my feet out of my pointe shoes and not know how much pain I was in until I would see that the blisters, um, dripping blood through my tights. Just to be graphic. And then that connection in my brain was like, oh, yeah, my feet are really sore now. So, uh, that served me very well in, in swimming, actually.

• 12:18Rich Roll?

  You hear these stories of, of like cutthroat competition in ballet, right? A lot of eating disorders. That kind of thing, right? Did you experience those kind of pressures?

• 12:30Speaker 01

  You definitely, it, it was definitely part of, of that community. Um, and, and maybe, you know, there were, were a lot of us that had sort of disorders with eating because you just, you know, it's when you're not seeing anyone else fuel their body or it's. You know, you're watching what your peers are doing. Um, and you know, the being able to have that discipline to just keep pushing through, even if you are hungry, but it's just very strange, very, very strange now they look back on it.

• 13:02Rich Roll?

  But then you, you have this growth spurt. I mean, if there's probably not too many five, 10 ballerinas, right? Like it doesn't work anymore.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 13:11Rich Roll?

  Well, that had to be a bummer.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, um, but you know, I have really little feet, um, which is not good for swimming. And I think they've, that was sort of stunted through years of being on point.

• 13:23Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Um, so I joked that my feet have been bound at a very young age.

• 13:27Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  But yeah, I was too tall and, you know, and I was more interested in school as well. And, um, I love to study and, you know, that sort of perfectionism, um, definitely wove its way through all aspects of my life.

• 13:41Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. So you start to teach. When do you?

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Learned how to teach.

• 13:44Rich Roll?

  You learned how to teach. Okay.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, qualified to do that, but I didn't actually teach.

• 13:47Rich Roll?

  Oh, you didn't end up doing that. And so what brought you to the United States?

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I was a very young 17 year old when I came here. I can't believe my parents let me go. Um, but my older brother had been recruited to UC Berkeley, uh, to row. And I was fascinated by the fact that he was over here in America and, you know, I'd traveled as a child with my family, but you know, to go to college in America was just something so, um, amazing to me at the time. And, um, so I actually sat the SATs at my school and got into a few schools and chose Berkeley because my brother was there. And so I ended up going to Cal with my big brother and, uh, they actually recruited me

• 14:32Speaker 01

  onto the rowing team because they said basically, well, you're tall.

• 14:36Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  You're very coordinated and you've got great genes because of your brother and I mean, I had.

• 14:41Rich Roll?

  High pain threshold.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I had no upper body strength. Like I was not meant to be a rower. So I tried it for a few years, but, um, let's just say I wasn't that good.

• 14:52Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And your, what, is your brother still live out here?

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, he does.

• 14:56Rich Roll?

  What does he do?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Uh, he lives on the East Coast. He's in property management.

• 14:59Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  And, uh, he doesn't row anymore, but. You know, we still had these really close bonds with all of those teammates and that was real team sport for me. Um, and all hit, all the guys on his team were like my big brothers at Cal, so I felt pretty lucky.

• 15:15Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Good. So you're already multidisciplinary in your, in your athleticism.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:20Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:21Rich Roll?

  And so let's fast forward to the, the kind of, um, you know, catalyst that spurred you into what you do today, right? You suffered this, this terrible accident.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I, um, a total freak accident on my way to work. Um, and I look back and gosh, I didn't even know who I was at that time. I was, um, working in Silicon Valley, um, working long hours, making pretty good amounts of money. And, um, I was on my way to work like any other day and I used to wear really high heels. Um, you know, it's all about the outfit, right? Um, and I slipped down the staircase where I was living and my, um, I was wearing a pantsuit and I think that caught on my heel, went flying down

• 16:14Speaker 01

  the staircase. I hit my head and I hit my right leg on this big ceramic pot that I had at the bottom of the staircase. And, um, I actually didn't break any bones. I mean, people break their necks falling down staircases. I was just in a hurry, um, not thinking. And my first thought is like, I'm just gonna have a really bad bruise on my leg. It's just gonna be a really bad bruise. I've got to get to work. So I went to work. I drove to work. Meanwhile, my leg is swelling. Um, what I was diagnosed with is called acute compartment syndrome and it actually, um, is often misdiagnosed if you're at the hospital

• 16:55Speaker 01

  in the initial phases of it because sometimes it takes a while for your leg to actually swell. What happened with me is I eventually passed out from the pain and um I'm waking up after they've performed the first of many surgeries on my leg.

• 17:11Rich Roll?

  You pa- did you pass out at work?

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:13Rich Roll?

  So what, did they get an ambulance?

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I ended up at a hospital here in San Francisco. And um my leg, I mean, I'm trying to show you here, my leg was probably, I have, I'll fo- I'll show you the photos later today, but it was swollen right out to here, um so about four or five inches on each side of my calf muscle.

• 17:33Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  Um, and again, it's from blunt force trauma to a limb. And they performed a surgery called a fasciotomy where they cut through the fascia. Um, and I've learned so much through this, but the the fascia protects your muscles and it it doesn't give. And so the pressure was building up in my legs and the nerves were getting compressed and and dying. Um, so I I still have significant nerve damage in my right leg. But when the doctors came into my room um after they've done the first surgery. And I have, you know, they've just sliced me on each side of my calf muscle. I have two big gaping holes.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  Um, and they're telling me, you know, we saved your leg, but we we don't know if you'll ever be able to use it again.

• 18:20Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  And, you know, they, you know, I I we all have to.

• 18:26Rich Roll?

  So weird, like it it like it didn't break the bone.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  I didn't break.

• 18:28Rich Roll?

  So the trauma was so significant, the inflammation was so intense that it damaged all the surrounding areas?

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it just um it it causes this the pressure to build up, so it ha- can happen in any of your limbs. Um, but it's it's from blunt force trauma, so people in car accidents get it. Um, and, I mean, you know, I'm learning as I get older, we have defining moments in our lives, right? And.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  I I really have never forgotten those words and and and at that moment when the surgeon said that to me. I I I knew for whatever reason that I there were two choices for me. One was to like basically accept that. Um, that, you know, all of my mobility, all of all of that which I took for granted was gone and be essentially disabled. Or I could, you know, prove them wrong. And um, that was what I decided to do. I didn't know how I was gonna do it. Um, but

• 19:32Rich Roll?

  How do you think that you were able to make that decision as opposed to sink into a depression or kind of create an identity around being a victim?

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, I have. I mean, I think just growing up on a farm and and knowing that you just have to get stuck in and you just have to get things done. And I was so like horrified that this had happened. It wasn't like it wasn't like a a a traumatic, you know, skiing accident or a car accident. It was like I was on my way to work. And it was just this disbelief that this was my reality. Um, and I

• 20:13Rich Roll?

  Right, like yesterday, everything was fine.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Right. And my friends call me the sort of the Energizer Bunny. I go and go and go and go and go. I don't sit still for very long. And I was completely

• 20:24Speaker 01

  incapacitated. Um, and that was the first of many surgeries that I had.

• 20:29Rich Roll?

  How long ago was this?

• 20:30Speaker 01

  Um, coming up on 10 years ago. Yeah. Um, and I, you know, initially I was horrified with the scars, you know, I look back and I was like, gosh, I was so living such a superficial life then. And I really feel like you know, now, I mean, at the time, I thought it was the worst possible thing that could ever happen to me because it it took two years out of my life because it took me that long to walk again.

• 20:54Rich Roll?

  Wow, so you were you were in a wheelchair and then crutches for?

• 20:58Speaker 01

  No, I was on crutches, um, but they, after I transitioned out of crutches and I had multiple surgeries, uh, later, like I have a big skin graft taken from my thigh. Once the swelling went down, it took nine months for the swelling of my leg to go down. So then they're patching up those, you know, the big holes on the side of my leg with the skin from my thigh. Then, um, I had to do physical therapy. I did that full time and, you know, the applying the discipline of having been a ballerina, um, I applied that to, um, getting better. I mean, they, they said I was their perfect patient because I never missed a physical therapy appointment. Uh, I think there was one because I was sick. Um, but I just, I gave it everything. I didn't work.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  It was, that was my job and my job was to

• 21:48Speaker 01

  fix this, to be healthy and to be the person I was before. Um.

• 21:54Rich Roll?

  It's a beautiful thing when you can look back on something like that and recognize it as an opportunity for growth.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:00Rich Roll?

  I'm sure it wasn't fun in the midst of it and perhaps you didn't, you weren't able to sort of recognize that at the time.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:07Rich Roll?

  It's always magical when you can kind of take a 10,000 foot view and look down and say, not that you brought that into your life or that you did anything wrong or anything like that, but that the universe kind of knocks on your door in a way and says,

• 22:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:21Rich Roll?

  Hey, maybe you should look in, you know, in a little bit of a different direction for your life.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Yes, and I really feel like because I am such a focused person, in some ways, I needed to have my life completely derailed, um, to go in a different direction and.

• 22:37Rich Roll?

  And sorry to interrupt, but at that time, you were pursuing the Silicon Valley dream, right? Were you, is that, was that the idea?

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I had my, I, I, you know, graduated, you know, I demanded a grad at Berkeley, but I went back and I got my masters of science at Berkeley and, um, you know, I was working at, at big tech companies and really having money for the first time, um. And just really, a really superficial life now that I look back on it. But tho- that those two years when I was rehabilitating my leg and, and, and my sense of self, really. Um, because I don't like to ask for help and I had to get help for everything. Um, but at the time, I thought it was the worst possible thing that could ever happen to me.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  And now, I mean, I tell anyone that will listen, I'm like, that was the best thing that ever happened to me. The absolute best thing because it set me on a journey that I could never have dreamed of. If you'd asked me 10 years ago if I'd be sitting here talking about my swimming journey or having had the experiences I've had, I would think you were mad. That that wasn't, wouldn't be possible. Um, but I learned what I was made of in those two years.

• 23:55Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and the stripping down of your ego and, and you being compelled to be so humbled to your core.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 24:03Rich Roll?

  Creates like a fertile ground for rebirth.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And it was, it really was a rebirth. Um, and it just, you know, I look back, like I look at my life now and, um, my, my, my soul is so rich. Um, and I have this community that is just an amazing group of adventurers that, you know, have these sort of double lives. They work in tech or they work in government. And then they swim in cold water for crazy distances in their free time. And it's just the, it's opened up my world of possibility of, um, not only myself, but of like the human spirit.

• 24:49Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. I have my version of, of your story. That's very different in, in certain ways, but I think the, the arc is very similar, you know, to, cause I sit here and I'm like, what am I even doing here, sitting with you, having this conversation? You know, like I would have never mapped that out for my life and the things that I've done and the stuff that I do. And I would imagine the idea that you would be like a marathon, you know, open water swimmer, like what? Like you'd probably, I'm sure you had, no, I didn't even know that that was something that existed, right? Like so, it's so beautiful that. You know, an experience like that could like just sort of reform every aspect of how you live your life and perceive the world.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I mean, even just talking to you now, it chokes me out because I, I don't, every day for me is a total gift. And, you know, that's why I get up in the morning and I swim, even though, you know, we've had these crazy storms and it's freezing cold and your body and your mind saying, what are you doing? Every time it's doing that, but you just, we only have one life and you never know the direction it's going to take. And, um, and then when you find a community of people that nobody's saying, well, why would you do that? Or that's a silly idea. They say, that's a great idea, even if it is, you know, this crazy swim idea.

• 26:09Rich Roll?

  Well, your friends at the tech company might not have said that.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  No, they walk wide circles around me even today. But it's just, um, yeah, it, like, my life is so full and it's just through this sport, this crazy sport called Marathon Open Water Swimming.

• 26:29Rich Roll?

  But it's more than that. It's full because you opened your heart to a different possibility for yourself and you had the courage to pull on that thread and follow it, even though it might have sounded insane.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:41Rich Roll?

  And to continue to follow it.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:43Rich Roll?

  You know, that's, that's where the work part of it comes in and the courage and the faith.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And really, um, you know, I think we have it in all of us to pick ourselves up, um, you know, and life is this journey where you, you know, you don't know what's going to happen next. Um, but it's having that ability somehow to really reach deep inside yourself and, and, and pull yourself out of a situation. It's easier said than done. I know that. But, um, and it's not to say that I didn't go down some deep, dark holes in those two years when, um, you know, I, I couldn't, I still walked with a limp and, you know, my scars were just so, you know.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Angry, red, so pronounced and I was just horrified. Um, but you know, when I first got in the pool, I mean, that was, you know, it had been two years of um being a patient really for two years. Um, and definitely feeling other. I didn't feel myself and having been a ballerina, you're acutely aware of when your body is misaligned and when it's not right. And that's how I felt every day.

• 27:58Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  And I had to wear an ankle foot orthotic. It's called an AFO. Had to put that in sneakers so I couldn't wear, you know, nice fancy heel.

• 28:05Rich Roll?

  No more heels.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  And so it was just like my life is over. You know, it was just when I think back, it's just, oh my goodness. But I craved a sense of freedom uh so much that I was willing to put myself in a swimsuit in a pool in front of people because I, you know, I'd learned water safety as a kid in New Zealand. That's how we sort of grew up. And I'd always played in the waves as a kid in the summer. I liked the water. But my swimming style was pretty terrible.

• 28:37Rich Roll?

  Well, what what got you to the pool in the first place? Like, did somebody say, hey, let's go swim? Or like, what what was the initial trigger?

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Well, it was just this frustration of feeling stuck. I couldn't, you know, San Francisco is a great walking city and I couldn't even walk up hills. I I just, I just felt trapped. I felt really, really trapped and I was looking for

• 29:01Speaker 01

  freedom and I just subconsciously was drawn to the water. Um.

• 29:08Rich Roll?

  So wait, all right. So that's interesting. So in in kind of a mystical way, it was like pulling you or calling you?

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:14Rich Roll?

  So it wasn't like some friend dragged you to the pool or anything like that? Like, there was just some uh unconscious tug?

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And I guess just to feel weightless, um to feel.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, just to feel a sense of uh uh uh of freedom. Um. And so there's a great outdoor pool here in San Francisco called Golden Gateway. It's right along the Embarcadero.

• 29:39Rich Roll?

  I used to swim there.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, it's a lovely pool. It's a great place to get a tan and swim. And I just started, I went there by myself and I got in and I remember the first time I got to the pool and I was just like, oh, my gosh, everyone's gonna be staring at my scars. This is disgusting. This is gross. I just felt just not myself, but I realized that when I got in the pool, you know, you're standing there waist deep and nobody was looking at my scars. They were just looking at me and um, you know, I'd swim some laps and then somebody said if you swim eighty laps, that's a mile. I think it was actually incorrect now. Someone's told me that.

• 30:17Rich Roll?

  Sixty-six.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Okay, well, I was doing a bit more then.

• 30:21Rich Roll?

  Depending upon how long the pool is, I guess, but.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so and I decided that I wouldn't get out of the pool until I'd done eighty laps.

• 30:30Rich Roll?

  The first time?

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Yes. And that was what I'd set my mind to. And so every time I went down there, that was what I did. And I'd just been swimming there for a month and a couple of guys at the pool, um.

• 30:42Rich Roll?

  First of all, before we even get to that, like, just the experience of being in the water. I mean, did you have that sensation of like, I'm home or this is, this is, I I am getting that sensation of freedom that I was looking for?

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it wasn't, it didn't feel like home yet, um, but it was a sense of freedom. And then just, it was so good for me mentally because I was just like everybody else. I mean, my stroke was pretty bad, but I was moving across the water just like everybody else. Whereas when I was on land, everything was just clunky and and, you know, I had this AFO, which is a big plastic thing that goes uh uh the back of your calf and slips into your shoe and it has a little hinge so you can pick up your foot. But in the water, I was just like everybody else. I was just wearing a swimsuit. There was no other extra equipment. Um, so that was really the.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  The real um.

• 31:40Rich Roll?

  Like freedom from from judgment of others and judgment of self.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And I think there was more judgment of self.

• 31:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  To be honest, I think we we always worry about what other people think and they're really not thinking what we're thinking, you know? But when you're feeling um vulnerable and you're feeling sensitive, it can be really overwhelming.

• 32:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think, you know, I I have I had I had a similar thing in high school. It was it was emotional. It wasn't physical, but like going to swim practice was safe.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:12Rich Roll?

  You know, and it was free and underwater. You could unshackle yourself from

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 32:18Rich Roll?

  those internal that internal dialogue.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:21Rich Roll?

  And the external pressures of the world.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes. It became a sanctuary.

• 32:26Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:28Rich Roll?

  So then a couple of guys come up to you.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they're now very good friends of mine and they said to me, have you ever thought about swimming in the San Francisco Bay? And I'd only been swimming at the pool for about a month. And I was like, but I'd been living in the Bay Area since nineteen ninety five. And I was like, that's ridiculous. It's cold and aren't there sharks? And all these things were going through my head, but it was a bit of a dare and I'll do anything for a dare.

• 32:56Rich Roll?

  Recruited into some strange religion.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:59Rich Roll?

  The foot soldiers are trying to pull you in to some bizarre cult.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I didn't know and they and they were kind of cute and I was like, wow, you know, and I'll I'll I'll challenge guys on a dare, you know, like, I don't know how I'm gonna do this, but I'll do it.

• 33:13Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  And so I said, okay, what do I need? And they said, just a swimsuit, um, cap and goggles. And they gave me, when I got there, they gave me one of these old school sort of thermal caps. And I I have that experience on video. And that was because they thought I was just gonna have this like freak out and just be

• 33:33Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  like a total girl and like.

• 33:35Rich Roll?

  Down down at aquatic park here?

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was in November of two thousand nine. So this is going into winter. And it was freezing cold and the water temperature was fifty fifty four, fifty five. And at the time, you know, I'd lost so much conditioning, you know. After I'd finished college, I was pretty much a gym rat. I work out all the time, but because I'd been incapacitated, I'd lost all, um, you know, definition. I was probably, I was really skinny. I was probably about a hundred and twenty pounds soaking wet. Um, and I'll show you the video and I'm, and I'm on the beach.

• 34:14Rich Roll?

  And by comparison now, you know, when you're, when you're ramping up for one of these challenges, you get up to like one eighty, right?

• 34:20Speaker 01

  One ninety five.

• 34:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, okay. We'll get there, but keep going.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  My ballet mistress would be horrified.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, I do remember her saying to us, a moment on the lips, a lifetime on the hips with the food. I just thought of that right now.

• 34:38Rich Roll?

  That's, that's, that's healthy.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Um, but yeah, and I'm standing on the beach and, um, and I have it all this, it what? I didn't know at the time was going to be another defining moment for my life. And they're sort of talking me through, um, you know, and I'm standing there and I'm like, my legs are numb. And they're like, your whole body's going to be numb in about three minutes. And then I was just like, okay, I'm just going to go for it. And I dive in and my stroke, I mean, looking back, it's just my legs are flopping up and it's just, but I got out there in the middle of the cove. Um, aquatic park is this wonderful sort of,

• 35:19Speaker 01

  um, little enclosure. There's no, uh, motorized boats are allowed there. There's like little sailboats are allowed there. People row there and it's a really safe place to, to swim, but you're in the bay and there's seals out there and seabirds and.

• 35:33Rich Roll?

  Right. For people that are listening, it's right at the foot of Ghirlanda Square in San Francisco. And it's kind of, there's like piers that jut out or jetties that kind of protect this swimming area, right? And there's a little clubhouse, the Dolphin Club clubhouse. We're going to talk about the Dolphin Club, but yeah. And every time you go by there, you'll see some nutcases out there swimming and you're like, what are they doing?

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So I'm one of those now. Um, but I got out there and I just, I remember just stopping and.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Jordan, who was swimming next to me, he's like, I've never seen anyone grin ear to ear. Like, I was just lit up because I looked out there and I was like, this is exactly what I've been looking for. This, this is it. And that was a feeling of I'm home.

• 36:21Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  It was like I, my whole body came alive. Um, I just, it was such an electrifying experience to just, I could see new possibilities for myself. I would, of course, I wouldn't imagine what I'd done since then, but

• 36:43Speaker 01

  I was, it was complete freedom for me and I could smell the ocean and it was just this adventure. Um, right here in the city.

• 36:51Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  I wasn't in for very long because it was very cold, but uh, I've, I've basically been swimming in the bay every day since.

• 36:59Rich Roll?

  That's amazing.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Rain or shine.

• 37:01Rich Roll?

  I have gone and swum at Aquatic Park maybe a handful of times. I did not have that experience. I enjoyed it. It was cool, but it wasn't like a lights on moment for me. I was like, okay, I did it, you know?

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. For me, it was, it was a reboot.

• 37:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's, that's, it's beautiful.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:18Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I.

• 37:19Rich Roll?

  I wish, you know, I wish that experience on everybody.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yeah. I, I, I try to recruit many people to the bay and it's sort of, I joke that it's sort of a baptism of the soul. Because it's just, um.

• 37:33Rich Roll?

  And what part of that is the cold versus just, you know, maybe other aspects of it? Like, is what, what is the fundamental component of the cold water? Like, the impact of that on that experience?

• 37:46Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's because every time you get in the water, it, it really, like, as I said, your mind and your body are saying, this is ridiculous. This is not a good idea. This is, you need to go get warm. But being able to push through that moment when you doubt yourself or you, you, you think you're cold, you think you can't do it, to be able to just dive in and push through that. You literally come out on the other side and you're like, I did that, even though I was cold, even though I didn't get much sleep last night. I did it and I'm out here. And then it really sort of sets up your day because you, you've really conquered the hardest thing of your day right at the beginning.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  But it is, the sensation of the cold water is, um. It's very strange. Um, you know, it affects people differently, but it is certainly refreshing. Um, I mean, you, your endorphins are fired up. Um, you're clearly awake and there's sort of this giddiness um, with being in cold water and also out there, it, it, it sort of connects with a playfulness that I think we forget about as adults.

• 39:02Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  Just to be able to frolic out there and I'll see seals and sea lions and I mean, people think I'm mad because I talk to them like they're dogs and they respond to me.

• 39:13Rich Roll?

  They kind of are dogs.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  They are, they're dog moon mates.

• 39:16Rich Roll?

  They're very dog-like, yeah.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and to, but to have an interaction where they're just as far away as you are, as close as you are right now to me across this table, where they just look at you and you can see their eyelashes and you can talk to them. And this connection and to, and to be, you know, in swims that I've done since to, to be fundamentally accepted in a, a, an environment for which really humans shouldn't be in. Um.

• 39:45Rich Roll?

  I think also in my limited experience in cold water, from a mindfulness perspective, it, it shuts down that part of your brain that kind of runs on automatic in the background all the time. Like it forces you to be very present with yourself because you are in this heightened state.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:02Rich Roll?

  There's no room for, oh, I gotta call that guy or I didn't pay that bill or all that stuff gets crowded out.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 40:08Rich Roll?

  And you're just, you have this palpable sense of just being in the moment and being hyper alive.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  That's, uh, yeah, that's an excellent observation. That's exactly it. You, you have to be in the moment. And equally, nothing else in the world matters, which is wonderful.

• 40:25Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Um, and, and I can guarantee whatever is on your mind, whatever is troubling you and you know, we all have bad days or we're worried about current events or whatever. For a brief moment, however long you're in the water, none of that matters. It's just you in nature. Um, and it's for me here, it's right here in the city.

• 40:46Rich Roll?

  Right. So you can have your urban life and you can have this incredibly primal, you know, life as well.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  It is very, very primal. Um, you know, your, your, your body becomes very in tune with the surroundings. For us, for those of us that are in the water every day, we can pretty much guess the water temperature within half a degree. Just because of how our body feels. Um, and then your sense of smell and

• 41:14Speaker 01

  it's, it really is very, very primal.

• 41:25Rich Roll?

  So you're all in from the first moment, right?

• 41:28Speaker 01

  All in. And I'm all or nothing kind of person anyways.

• 41:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I gather. I get that.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  It's obvious.

• 41:34Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 41:37Rich Roll?

  So then talk to me a little bit about, uh, the culture of the Dolphin Club, which is the swim club that kind of looms over that aquatic park. And the history, like it's this legendary club that dates back quite a long time, right?

• 41:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's, and there's actually two clubs there, um, side by side.

• 41:55Rich Roll?

  I didn't know about that.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. So there's the Dolphin Club and the South End Rowing Club. They're rivals. Um, but I'm a middle child and I belong to both. And I'm all in too. So I'm like, I want, I want all of it. And they're quite different clubs. Uh, everybody is, um, joined together with a love of either being in the water or on the water. There's a rowing program for both clubs. But they are, it's really like a secret society of adventurers. And we all have day jobs. We're all, um,

• 42:33Speaker 01

  you know, working in various aspects in the city and beyond.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  But when you come there, it's, it doesn't matter. It's a, it's a complete cross section of society.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Unlike any other club I know of, it doesn't matter how much money you have, doesn't matter what color you are, doesn't matter what you do for a living. That doesn't even come up.

• 42:54Rich Roll?

  Sounds like AA.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we're all addicts down there. It's just a swim addiction.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  It is very much a swim addiction. Um, but you you come together and

• 43:10Speaker 01

  the the bonds that you have with these people are so deep because it really is like this little secret society and everyone watches out for each other. But it's like this, every day it's like a little sitcom that's played out and um, you know, all ages, the the oldest woman at the Dolphin Club that's currently swimming is eighty years old.

• 43:33Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Her name's Mimi and she gets in the water every day, wearing just a regular swimsuit.

• 43:39Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  And I can tell you, when you're on the beach, a little cold, wondering whether you can do it because every day that happens. And you see Mimi saunter on and it's just like, oh, okay.

• 43:51Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  I can't not get in, you know, not that I've ever not gotten in, but you you know, and and it's just, it's really wonderful to have those connections with older folks as well. And, uh, you know, we have a club swims, we have uh swims against the other club. And the camaraderie there is just like, just fills the walls. It's it's amazing.

• 44:16Rich Roll?

  And there's a, there's this beautiful tradition as well, right? Like I said, it dates, it it's, this is not a new organization.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 44:23Rich Roll?

  These people, there's people that have been doing it for a very long time.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Since eighteen seventy seven.

• 44:27Rich Roll?

  Oh, is it that old? Wow.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:29Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And you look at the pictures on the walls of the the swimsuits they used to wear back then. And they only let women into the club in nineteen seventy seven.

• 44:38Rich Roll?

  Oh, really?

• 44:39Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes. So, um, that.

• 44:42Rich Roll?

  And what would happen if somebody goes down there and has a wetsuit on?

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Oh, no, it's totally fine.

• 44:47Rich Roll?

  Oh, it is?

• 44:47Speaker 01

  It is, it is.

• 44:48Rich Roll?

  They won't boot you out of there?

• 44:49Speaker 01

  No, no, but you can't compete in the club swims wearing a wetsuit. Um, but yeah, no, you you can wear a wetsuit, um, but you know, people sort of have each other on and you know, like, oh, you don't need that. And but we all swim within our own limits.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  I think everyone should try at least once getting in their order without a wet suit because it's very amazing experience.

• 45:17Rich Roll?

  Many years ago, I did the Alcatraz swim without a wet suit. And all I remember, I remember a couple, it was, I can't remember, it must have been ninety four, ninety five, something like that. And it was not summer, you know, I don't know that it was, maybe it was October or March or something like that. And all I remember about that is when I got into, when I was way in the middle, like about the halfway point, it's not a long swim, it's only like a mile and a half, right?

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 45:46Rich Roll?

  Uh, like halfway in, you realize like, oh, you're like in a shipping lane. Like you're not, this is not like some pristine lake. Like it's, it's gnarly, you know? And then my hands and my feet went completely numb. So I felt like I just was swimming with fists, you know? It was exhilarating, but I also, you know, I was like, I, I don't know if this is for me, you know, like I did it and I did fine and it was fun. I did it with my friends. And the other thing I remember about that is I don't remember who the race organizer was. There was a series of these races. But the guy who conducted, who, who, who organized the race had a dog, like a, it was like a lab, I think. And this lab, his favorite thing was to do the Alcatraz swim.

• 46:31Rich Roll?

  Like he was so excited, like his favorite, he was, you could tell he just couldn't wait to get in the water and the dog, dog paddles the whole thing and beats half the field.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Well, they do have webbed feet, so.

• 46:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I guess, right.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  And four legs.

• 46:46Rich Roll?

  So when does the, uh, when does the spark to try to tackle a challenge come in? Is that, is that a gradual progression of doing these sort of competitions between the swim clubs? Or what happens?

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Well, it was just, I was just, without knowing, I, I'd sort of dropped into this community of amazing people. Um, and on the wall is a, is a, a record of all the people who have soloed the English Channel. You get your name there and your time that it took you to cross the channel. And I remember, I would just marvel at that wall because these are people that I was interacting with on a daily basis that had won the English Channel and.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  I just started to see possibilities and you know, I had a lot of encouragement from people um who at the club who were just like, you know, say, well, I can help you train for that. Or I can, you know, I know somebody has done that, but it really, it was my first, in the year uh twenty ten, um I did my first Alcatraz. That was six months after joining the club. And I did it on my birthday and I called it the first annual Kiwi Invitational Escape from Alcatraz.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  I had my New Zealand flag and everything.

• 48:06Rich Roll?

  It wasn't like a rate, you just did it.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  It was an organized swim, yeah. And I, I can remember stopping mid-channel and looking at Alcatraz and then looking at San Francisco and I was like, I'm doing this. I'm really swimming from Alcatraz. And what happened for me is I discovered that if I did one thing, well, maybe I can do this next thing. And then in, in early twenty eleven, I was introduced to a group of swimmers called the Night Train Swimmers.

• 48:35Rich Roll?

  Vito.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Yes, Vito Bialla.

• 48:39Rich Roll?

  No Vito.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  He's a very, very good friend and, and a mentor for me. And he actually, he was the person who believed in me when nobody believed in me. Um, he invited me to join the team. Um, and he said that I couldn't swim my way out of a paper bag with flippers on. And he, it's totally right, but he saw something in me and he invited me.

• 49:02Rich Roll?

  What did he see in you?

• 49:03Speaker 01

  He says that he saw tenacity and drive. Um, and certainly not swimming. Uh, there, there needed to be a lot of work on that. But at the time, they were um attempting to swim to the Farallon Islands. And now the Farallon Islands are thirty miles off the coast of California here. It's. Marine sanctuary, but it's, you know, where great white sharks frequent and some of the largest are there and they like to breed there.

• 49:31Rich Roll?

  Let's just paint the picture, you know, you're, you're making it sound a little bit more idyllic than I think it is. If anybody's been to San Francisco or driven across the, the Golden Gate Bridge, as you look out, you know, to the ocean side as you're crossing that bridge, uh, if it's a clear day, you can just make them out and they're like these foreboding jutting rocks that stick up out of the ocean that just are, look about as treacherous as you can possibly imagine. Like it's out of Lord of the Rings or something like that. Like it is, it is frightening just to imagine taking a boat out there, let alone swimming and then understand that it is this incredible, uh, nature preserve where, I mean, you know, thousands and thousands of sea lions and seals kind of breed there,

• 50:15Rich Roll?

  right? And as a result of that, it is like the red triangle of great white sharks.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  It is, it is. For me, it, yeah. I mean, I, it's a, it's a fantasy world out there for me. Um, and I can explain more, but it was Vito and the night train swimmers that thought that that was a very good idea to swim to those islands. And they had been attempting to do a relay swim. So with a relay, you have six swimmers and you swim an hour long shifts until you get, you rotate through until you get to your destination.

• 50:50Rich Roll?

  And Vito's got his boat, right? So you just, right?

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he's an expert, um, you know, um, captain and he's also a swimmer and among many other things, but he, um, he, he came up with this idea and there'd been many attempts because it's such a, it's a treacherous stretch of water and it's very, um, it's, it's just tricky with the currents, uh, with the winds. There's only a handful of days when it's actually the best time to swim there. So he asked me to accompany them on the boat as support crew. And it was just this wild, wild, wild west out there. Um, and I was just captivated by all of it. And then the, the last relay, which was actually the, the successful one, I was invited to be on the team.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Someone dropped out and I

• 51:41Rich Roll?

  But that first time they didn't, they, they weren't successful.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  It took four attempts. Uh, and I was on the fourth one. I was the only woman on, um, this coed team. And I remember when Vito left me the message to tell me, um, that I was on the team. He's like, this is the message you've been waiting for. This is the phone call you've been waiting for. You're on the team. And I felt like my Christmas had just come early. I was like, I can't believe I'm going to be part of this.

• 52:05Rich Roll?

  Followed quickly by a sheer terror or no, you know?

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Well, also because I wasn't the best swimmer. And, you know, when you're a part of a team, you don't want to be that one that lets everyone down. So he, I feel like he really took a gamble with me, but, um, again, he believed in me and I'll never forget that. So we were out there and, um, David Holsher on our team was the person who actually finished the swim. He had to slap a buoy because you can't touch the land there. And it was just before the sun was about to set.

• 52:40Rich Roll?

  So you take the boat out to the Farrelands and you swim back?

• 52:43Speaker 01

  No, we swam to the Farrelands.

• 52:44Rich Roll?

  You swam to, okay.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, it had never been done before. And we, because it's a marine sanctuary, we had these permits to, another permit to do it again. And I said to Vito, I said, you know, it'd be such a waste to give up that permit. Could I put together the first all women's team to do that relay? And he's like, sure, you know, he's, he's always up for adventure. So within two weeks, I managed to recruit five other women. Um, I managed to convince them that it was a good idea to swim in Shark and Festive Water. Um, and they are five of the strongest woman, bravest woman I know. Um, and we completed the relay and I actually ended up being the last person to get in that water.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  And it was dark and. You know, you don't want to be the one that lets down the team, but that was definitely a moment of truth where you are a mile out from the farmlands, you're about to set another record, you've got your team, they've done all their work, and now it's just up to you to do the last leg.

• 53:45Rich Roll?

  But the last leg, of course, being the hardest because not only is it you've been out there so long, but now you're entering the shark-infested part.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  And it's dark, and it's dark, and we've got video, and there's just this, you just see this little blue light on the back of my goggles, and you see the silhouette of the islands, and I, I, I watch it from time to time because, you know, you do these things, but it takes a long time to sink in. And, I mean, it was crazy. And, you know, I remember when David Holsher finished the swim and he slapped the buoy, and in this moment of just thinking I'm going to get eaten by a shark, and the adrenaline is just surging through your body, like, it, it, it's an incredible feeling. Um, I decided to kiss the buoy. And then because the water was so treacherous, I'm expecting to just be

• 54:34Speaker 01

  hauled onto the boat. And then the boat moves away from me. I'm like, Vito, like, I'm not a prima donna, I'm not high mainzins, but I just finished the swim and I need to get on the boat, I need to get out of this water, because I'm on a ticking time bomb.

• 54:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  But it was too rough, and so I had, actually had to swim to the boat, but...

• 54:50Rich Roll?

  What is the perimeter around the farmlands that's sort of, like, how far away do you have to be before you're kind of a little bit free and clear of the shark infestation?

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Five miles.

• 54:59Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow. That's, that's a lot broader than I would have thought.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  That's what they call the, the, the ecosystem.

• 55:04Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And so, it, you know, you, I did, had these experiences, I was like, I just want to do more. I just, that feeling of being out there, when you're in water that's 6,000, 10,000 feet deep, and you're just this little person on, on, on the top of the, of the surface of the water, and... Your mind just goes crazy thinking about what's swimming underneath you. And for me, it's just this wonderland out there. You know, we've gone back there on the weekends just to frolic in the water there. And I'll come back to work and people are like, oh, how was your weekend? I was like, well, you know, just did a little dip at the Farrelon, you know, and I do videos

• 55:47Speaker 01

  and I put music to it. And it's just, but it, um, so I became, I started to have a love affair with those islands. And, um, that sort of set a goal.

• 56:01Rich Roll?

  What is it about those islands that make it so special? Is it the treachery? Is it, is it the, the, the, the challenge of, of meeting your fear on such a profound level?

• 56:13Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, very much so. It, it, it, it's like being in heaven and talking to the devil at the same time, to quote Vito. He summed it up pretty well. Like, it, it is, it is a wonderland out there. You know, when I've gone out there on the weekends and there's, the, the visibility is incredible, sort of 50 feet either direction. And you've got all these seals and sea lions and they'll come right up to you and they're, they're swimming underneath you and darting underneath you. And, um, and you know that you're really not supposed to be there because a shark could come out of nowhere. And it's not like any of us are on sort of this death

• 56:58Speaker 01

  wish. But you, you really are, I think, it is tantalizing to, to, to, to be at that, at that, right at that edge. I mean, that is.

• 57:09Rich Roll?

  And super connected.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Um, it's like, I, I, if I could go to the Farrelons every day, I would. It's, it is, um, It really is just this, like I said, it's a wonderland and, and, and again, to be accepted by the, the creatures that frequent that water. And I have, I haven't had a shark encounter out there. Um, you know, they're there. You can feel them.

• 57:39Rich Roll?

  I know, like, when you did your solo swim, you had like a, uh, like a sonic thing on your ankle, right? Like it's some kind of sonar thing that's supposed to repel the sharks.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it lets off a magnetic wave, um, sort of creates a magnetic field around you, whether it works or not, I don't know. But, um, most importantly though, it doesn't harm the sharks. Um, I feel, you know, some people have said to me, like, is your boat gonna have a shotgun on it? And it's like, no, you know, that is, that's their living room.

• 58:12Rich Roll?

  Antithetical to the whole idea.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I, and, and, you know, and I, I, I do these sort of, um, I'm more of a spiritual person, but the times that I've gone out there, I just sort of say, you know, like I, I pray for a safe passage and I'm just passing through. Like that is, that is their living room and it has to be treated with the utmost respect.

• 58:33Rich Roll?

  Right. If you came in from an aggressive, an aggressive point of view and you did have a gun and you did, you know, all these things, it's almost like the energy that you would be bringing to that area would be very different. It's almost like you would be inviting a problem as opposed to, I mean, what it is really is total surrender. You're like, I'm here. This is what's, what's gonna happen is gonna happen. And a complete letting go, which is terrifying, but also plays into what you were saying about freedom.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  It is. It really is. I mean, I, you know, I, I control what I can control leading up to the swim, but there is nothing more exhilarating than jumping off that boat into that water for any of these swims. And it is

• 59:17Rich Roll?

  Not knowing.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  Not knowing. And that for me is captivating. It, it,

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Because we live a life on land where we think we know what's gonna happen and you walk out the door and you're gonna walk down the street and you're gonna get in your car and you're gonna drive a certain, e- everything seems so prescribed. You know, even looking at road signs where it's like, oh, caution, there's a curve ahead. When you're out there, it, it again, it's, it's so primal and you are at the mercy of Mother Nature, you're at the mercy of whatever could happen there and it is, every time I'm out there, I, I, I, I surrender and it is so freeing, um, it's so scary.

• 1:00:00Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  But it's, I mean, it's everything, it's just, and you feel like this modern day explorer, like I feel like an astronaut out there that I, I'm in an area where humans-

• 1:00:17Rich Roll?

  Well, in the history of humankind, how many people have actually gotten into the water around the Faroe Islands?

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Not many people.

• 1:00:23Rich Roll?

  If you take the night train swimmers out of that equation, maybe a couple?

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there's four, four, um, three men and, um, myself.

• 1:00:32Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  And, yeah, and I would, I would do it again, heartbeat.

• 1:00:37Rich Roll?

  So you did the relay?

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:00:39Rich Roll?

  And then what comes next? Is it the idea of doing the, what is it called, the seven?

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  The Ocean Seven.

• 1:00:46Rich Roll?

  The Ocean Seven.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  So what happened after that was I was like, wow, I can't believe I've done that. What's the next thing? I need to do the next adventure. And I'd signed up to swim around the island of Manhattan in New York in a, in a relay.

• 1:00:58Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  And did that with a team of guys and I'd signed up to swim across the English Channel in a relay that, all that same year and I was living, um, with a bunch of guys, um, it was basically a frat house, but they were all, they're all like my buddies and they're adventurers and one of my roommates had climbed Mount Everest and he'd swam the English Channel. And he's sitting on my rug with his dog and we're talking about my getting ready to go to England and he's like, you know- You're going to England in a couple of weeks to do your relay, like you're spending all this money. Why don't you just do a solo while you're there? And I was like.

• 1:01:35Rich Roll?

  Enough with this relay nonsense.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  I was like, that's a great idea. I had no business doing that. Absolutely no business. When I started to tell people because I was so excited. They were just like, you are absolutely insane. Um, and you know, there's so much work that goes into a solo and um, a part of me still wanted to pull a rabbit out of a hat and.

• 1:01:58Rich Roll?

  Well, the logistics also, all the permitting and all of that is a major ordeal, right?

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it all came together, but um, I was not prepared and I, I think I wasn't even halfway across and they pulled me and. I definitely came back with my tail between my legs. I was very, I was very disappointed in myself, but I decided that I would come back there and I would complete that swim and I would be as qualified as possible. So then I started to think about, okay, what could be my first real solo? And at the time, my um, my grandfather, my maternal grandfather was in ill health and you know, he really was the, the proudest Kiwi I've ever known.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  And I was like, I'm gonna swim from the South Island to the North Island in New Zealand, across the Cook Strait.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:02:54Rich Roll?

  How many miles is that?

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  About seventeen miles. There's also sharks that frequent there. Um, yeah, one in six apparently.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  Um, encounter, they use that word a bit loosely, but uh, I made it across.

• 1:03:08Rich Roll?

  Wait, one in six, wait, one in six people that get in the water, they're encountering a shark?

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes. And it's one of the few swims.

• 1:03:15Rich Roll?

  Great white?

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Um, and it's one of the few swims where you are allowed, so for all of these solo swims, you cannot touch your boat, get on the boat at any time, but um, with the Farrelons and with the Cook Strait, you can get on the boat for ten minutes. I don't know who can get in the water after ten minutes after having seen a shark, but

• 1:03:34Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  the option is there for you.

• 1:03:35Rich Roll?

  Because they make that exception because of the sharks?

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Um, yeah, and that swim was an incredible swim for me. I mean, I was on home turf and

• 1:03:48Rich Roll?

  This was what, like two thousand ten or?

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  This was March of two thousand twelve.

• 1:03:51Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, so two thousand eleven was my relay year.

• 1:03:54Rich Roll?

  Got it.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  And then two thousand twelve, it was March of two thousand twelve, I had dolphins escort me.

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  I didn't, that was my first experience of that, and they were swimming underneath me, beside me. I was so close, I could almost reach their dorsal fins.

• 1:04:12Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  But I heard them squeak in the water first and it was just like, oh my gosh, the cavalry is here, you know?

• 1:04:20Rich Roll?

  They're gonna carry, these angels are gonna escort you.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the fact that they knew that I was a friend and not a foe and I joke now, I'm like, you know, I'm sure they were talking amongst themselves and being like, George, like, what is this thing in the water? Like, what, she can't even swim? Like, should we be worried about her? Like, what's she doing? You know, I'm sure they were like, talking. But I, they would squeak and I would squeak back and so, I mean, really, like, I'm like a twelve year old girl out there because it's just, I mean, it, it's so special every time, but to have these dolphins escort me for about forty, forty-five minutes. They were so close to me and I, I think they were protecting me. Um, but I, I didn't see any sharks on my swim and, and I finished the swim.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  Um, I, I, I had to go to hospital afterwards. I was a little hypothermic.

• 1:05:11Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. How cold is that water?

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  Uh, it's about, it was about fifty-seven, fifty-seven degrees.

• 1:05:19Rich Roll?

  That's not too bad.

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but I was also, you know, I've sort of, you, I've learned how to put weight on and, you know, you, with each swim, you learn more about how to train and, uh, you know, and I got to show my grandfather the video of me swimming with the dolphins and before he passed away, but.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  So I'd done that and then um I swam the length of Lake Tahoe. Um, and that was an interesting swim because there's nothing quite like training at sea level for an altitude swim. I was violently ill for most of it.

• 1:05:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:05:52Rich Roll?

  It's no joke at Tahoe. I've done that Trans Tahoe relay and you know, just without doing any preparation at altitude to go up there. You're like, whoa.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was a cha- a challenge and you know, and and this video of me getting out of the water and I'm just in tears because it's just um.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Every time for me, it there it there's this disbelief that really. You when you put your mind and your body to a goal and then you achieve it. It's just, you can't even quite comprehend it. Um, and I must say that for each of these swims, I've had a team of people escorting me and there's nothing solo about any of these swims.

• 1:06:36Rich Roll?

  Right. You don't just show up and jump in. There's a whole, you know, ramp up and it's very, you know, organized.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  From the person driving the boat to the person, you know, keeping an eye on you, cheering you on, like, you can't do this alone. And that has also been a wonderful. Um, learning for me to be able to ask for help and receive it, you know, because I I wasn't like that before. So did Lake Tahoe and we'd done an we'd attempted another night train relay down the coast. We were attempting to swim from San Francisco to Santa Barbara.

• 1:07:10Rich Roll?

  Oh, I remember that. Yeah.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  Yep. And I got stung by jellyfish. So each evening shift of mine. The sun was setting and the moon was rising and you could just see the jellyfish rise to the surface. And they're called siphonophores. They're actually not the gelatinous ones that we think of with jellyfish. They're actually like, look like little snakes. It was like being tasered for your whole hour. And I have a high pain tolerance, but um, it got to the point where I had difficulty breathing and we got to Morro Bay and we had to call a swim.

• 1:07:41Rich Roll?

  Right. You can go into anaphylactic shock, right?

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was the right call, but I I was I was really devastated because I was the one.

• 1:07:50Rich Roll?

  You were the one. Yeah.

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  Right. And nobody blamed me, but I blame myself and.

• 1:07:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How could you get stung by jellyfish? How dare you?

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  Right. And so then people were saying, well, Kim, you know, you we know you love your swimming, but. I don't think you can swim in water with jellyfish anymore. And I was like, I think I'm gonna try and prove you wrong. So I found-

• 1:08:11Rich Roll?

  Because once that happens, you become more susceptible the next time you're attacked, right?

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, well, I'd like to test that theory. And I don't like being told I can't do something. So

• 1:08:24Rich Roll?

  Clearly.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  So there's this stretch of water in Hawaii called the Molokai Channel, from Molokai to Oahu. Um, tiger sharks, Portuguese man o' war. So you've got a whole menu of-

• 1:08:36Rich Roll?

  Right. At least it's warm, though.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:38Rich Roll?

  That one's longer, though, right? How far is that?

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Uh, about thirty five miles. And, um, so the water temperature was just amazing. And I got in at ni- eight thirty at night and finished almost twenty hours later. Um, I got stung a few times by Portuguese man o' war. Um, and I can remember just trying to scrape off the tentacles off my, my swimsuit. Um, I had dolphins escort me in the middle of the night and lit up with a bioluminescent glow and, and then towards the end, I had humpback whales singing. And in Hawaii, they call it amacula, that that's your ancestors speaking to you. And I thought that that was my grandfather. So. But then I, because the conditions deteriorated, I was supposed to exit at Sandy's Beach

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  on Oahu, which freaked me out anyways, because I'm afraid of big waves. I don't mind them in the ocean, but I'm not a surfer. But I got pushed along and I actually had to climb up a vertical wall, uh, called China Walls. And with marathon open water swimming, you have to exit the water unassisted. So if somebody took pity on you and wrapped their arms around you to just not knowing, just trying to be helpful, you'd be disqualified.

• 1:09:46Rich Roll?

  Right. There's all these, there's all this, it goes beyond etiquette. These are actual

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:50Rich Roll?

  rules and regulations that will certify the accomplishment. And that was something that- You know, the controversy that crept up around Diana Nyad.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:59Rich Roll?

  Swim from Cuba, right?

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:01Rich Roll?

  Because she would occasionally hang on to the boat.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And so for, I follow what I, what we call traditional English Channel Marathon swimming rules. So no physical contact with your boat or your crew. No resting on the boat. People say, because you swim through the night, they're like, oh, so did you go down the boat for a nap? No.

• 1:10:21Rich Roll?

  No wetsuits, no shark cage?

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  No shark cage, no thermal cap, has to be a regular latex or silicone cap. You're allowed earplugs. I don't like water in my ears. I'm like, I don't know if you've seen those videos online where a cat like accidentally falls into a bathtub and like scrambles to get out like that's me if I get water in my ears. It's awful.

• 1:10:41Rich Roll?

  Well, when the water's really cold, it's painful.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, with, with that swim with Molokai, I was like, wow, I've actually done two of the Ocean Seven. And I was like, I just got five more to go. How hard can it be? And that was-

• 1:11:02Rich Roll?

  Is there a, there's no time limit, like in how, like how long it takes you to do all seven to be?

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:11:08Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  And what, and what I love also about it is that, you know, you're not competing with anybody else. Like, sure, you, you become interested in what other swimmers, how long it took them to cross that stretch of water, just because it gives you an idea of how long it might take you. But there's no, it's just, that's what I love. It's just you're testing yourself.

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  And that swim was almost 20 hours of non-stop swimming.

• 1:11:44Rich Roll?

  So when you're swimming for 20 hours, what are the sort of mental tricks that you employ to, you know, remain focused when?

• 1:11:55Rich Roll?

  You start to get tired or you feel like you want to quit.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:59Rich Roll?

  Or you're gonna lose your mind.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think all of those things have occurred. But you rely on a crew and you know, they, I pick my crew very, very carefully. There are people that know me really, really well and they're also, I've learned a lot through being on Night Train Swimmers with the way Vito puts the teams together because team is everything. And it's not just their connection with you as a swimmer, but it's their connection with each other because it is a journey. It's really this odyssey.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  And so they become very in tune with, you know, if you're struggling and so they might offer me, we call it a feeding. So every 30 minutes I have a carbohydrate protein drink or some snacks. I experiment with, you know, whole food as well.

• 1:12:46Rich Roll?

  Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

• 1:12:47Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And peaches, like canned peaches. Oh, oh my gosh, when you're out there, that is just, I mean, it's like dining at a five star restaurant when you have something like that or.

• 1:13:01Rich Roll?

  Really easy to digest.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's just, it becomes a sensory delight because you're so focused and then you have this thing that just makes everything in your mouth come alive and mentally too, it lifts you up.

• 1:13:13Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And what is the carbohydrate protein drink?

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  So, yeah, so I've experimented with a bunch of different ones. I use all goo products now, like the goo little gel packs and their energy drink. And then I take a lot of amino acids throughout my swim. So I'm becoming more scientific. In the past, it's been really hit and miss. But at the, I always have what I call my bag of tricks and I don't eat junk food, but you know, I grew up with like candy and that from New Zealand. And so it's this, it's this bag of tricks, which if they know that I'm close to finishing, they can, it's just pump me up with sugar. Give me a Mountain Dew.

• 1:13:56Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah. I mean, for that last leg, you can't do that. You know, if you're taking gels early on, you're gonna be in big trouble. Yeah, but those things work, you know? I mean, sugar works.

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, yeah, so I have all those sort of feedings and then just passing the time when I'm, when I'm really in my groove. I love, you know, I see the boat. I usually swim on the starboard side and I breathe to my left and I love to make eye contact with the captain. And then I just watched the crew. Um, the worst thing that can happen is your crew form a huddle because you know they're thinking about what they're gonna do with you. Uh, so you also become very devious. Well, me at least, um, when I swam across, um, from Northern Ireland to Scotland.

• 1:14:42Rich Roll?

  That was the hardest one, right?

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, that one I almost died. Um, but I knew I was having trouble breathing.

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  But I knew that if I told my crew I was having trouble breathing, they'd pull me. So I just adjusted my stroke and just took a breath every stroke.

• 1:14:58Rich Roll?

  Trying to pull one over on the crew.

• 1:14:59Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:15:00Rich Roll?

  I would not advise that.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  I know. But you know, when you can smell Scotland, when you can smell the grass of Scotland. And it's a goal. And that was my final seven.

• 1:15:10Rich Roll?

  Was that the last one?

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I mean, all of us in the sport are a little stubborn. Um, maybe more so than others, but when you, you, it's a goal that you've trained for. It's like you, I mean, I end up in hospital after most of my swims. Um, in America here, I have great health insurance and they know me on a first name basis up at CPMC.

• 1:15:35Rich Roll?

  Don't do this at home, people.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  And people are just like, why would you do that? But it's just, I just wanna see what I'm capable of. I, I wanna see how far I can go. And and I've, I've had the opportunity to do a lot of that and really like my soul has a lot more wrinkles, you know, through these experiences.

• 1:15:58Rich Roll?

  So let's go through the seven. You had, you did the, the New Zealand one.

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, Cook Strait.

• 1:16:05Rich Roll?

  Cook Strait. What are the other ones?

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  I did the Molokai Channel.

• 1:16:07Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:16:08Speaker 01

  Um, then I swam across the Strait of Gibraltar from Spain to Africa. Um, that was an amazing experience to see a fisherman on the Morocco side and, um, I just said hello to him and he was just like.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:26Rich Roll?

  That's pretty rough, right?

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. And it's a big shipping, uh, shipping channel. And then I swam across, um, the Catalina Channel, so Catalina to the mainland. Had dolphins escort me and towards the end, it was like the floodgates just opened. It was just, there were thousands of them accompanying me to shore. And then I was like, okay, I'm ready to do the English Channel. Cause I, I told myself I was gonna go back there as prepared as possible. And that swim was a really fabulous swim for me. I, I wasn't sick. I felt happy the whole time and, and people make fun of me because, I mean, I'm always so happy out there in the water.

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  But I, again, I'm like a 12 year old girl and I'll, I'll be swimming along and I'll go woo. You know, it's just this expression of just joy. And I was swimming across the English Channel. It was as flat as a lake. It was gorgeous day and um, my boat captain, um, he just would stick his head out the window and he'd go woo. And he's just like this, you know, he's just like a real burly English guy. And uh, and then with that swim, uh, he was actually just visiting here in San Francisco. I've become very good friends with him because, you know, he, your, your boat captains are responsible for you. And they shepherd you across the sea.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  And after I'd done the English Channel, we, next day I invited him and my crew to go take the ferry across to France and find the spot where I made land. And he said, in all his years, he had never had a swimmer invite him to do that. And so we just have this instant bond and um, but it's just, for me, these are not swims at all. I mean, there's the swimming part of it, but they are, each of them are journeys of the self. And the people that are with you during these journeys are forever, you know, they forever have a place in your heart.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  And, and you learn gratitude, um, and you learn appreciation.

• 1:18:37Rich Roll?

  But underneath all of this for you. Is the, the current of joy, like joy is feeling this for you. It's not like, you're not coming into this with this hardened, like, I'm gonna prove that I can do this, coming from some kind of unhealthy place. Like you're just, you just love it, right? Like you're, this is what you're supposed to be doing.

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:55Rich Roll?

  Right? And when you're doing it, not only do you feel alive, you're completely in your, in your bliss.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  Yes, and I feel filled with purpose because all of these swims I do for charity. Um, and another great learning that I, I got from Vito and Night Train Swimmers, because we do swims around the world all for charity. And, and that's what I've incorporated into my solo swims. And so it's, it's really making these swims bigger than about yourself. Sure, there, you're, you're the one that gets the accolades and, um, but I'm the first to say that, you know, I didn't do it alone and I share all of these achievements with my crew. Um, and even the people that, you know, someone at the club or someone here in the city would just say, like, I read that you're gonna go do the swim, like, good luck.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  Like, just the fact that people are thinking about it. And then, you know, I have a GPS tracker on the boat and people can track me real time on a Google map.

• 1:19:55Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  And I've had my colleagues at work on their big monitors, like, track me and, and that helps.

• 1:20:01Rich Roll?

  You put them up on Strava?

• 1:20:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:20:05Rich Roll?

  You're like, I think you have the KOM for the Farallon swim.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:09Rich Roll?

  Nobody's gonna challenge that anytime soon.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So it's just the fact that people are interested as well in a sport that they might not understand, that they might not connect with. Like, I never used to understand why people climbed mountains, but now I understand why people climb mountains. And, um.

• 1:20:30Rich Roll?

  And that's because?

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  They're journeys. They, you are pushing the limits of your physical and mental self. And I think also, many of us are afraid to do that because a lot of times it's scary. And a lot of times it's uncomfortable. It's gonna hurt. And human nature is to avoid things that could potentially hurt us, that could make us cold, could make, you know, make us uncomfortable. But when you, and we all have fears, but when you really push through those fears, um, and again, human nature is to, is to retreat from fear.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  When you push through, there is the sense of self, there is a real, in my case at least, that's where the treasure lies. The treasure in life lies right on the other side of where you're most fearful.

• 1:21:29Rich Roll?

  Super powerful.

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:21:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, not only do we sort of recoil from the uncomfortable, we're sort of haplessly chasing these emotions that you're experiencing. Joy, gratitude, giving back through the charity, that sense of feeling alive. We're sort of encouraged to seek those out through material possessions.

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:21:51Rich Roll?

  Or social status.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:21:53Rich Roll?

  And that's what is encouraged in our culture. And the messages that we're sort of, you know, met with on every billboard and every television commercial and every magazine, right?

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:04Rich Roll?

  And the truth lies in shucking that aside.

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:22:08Rich Roll?

  And doing something that scares you.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:11Rich Roll?

  Whatever that is. And it doesn't have to be, you know, swimming the English Channel.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:22:16Rich Roll?

  You know, and it didn't start that way for you either. It started with you dipping your toe into a aquatic park that first time.

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. You know, and even getting in that pool. I was most afraid of people looking at my scars. I mean, so silly. But, but we all have fears and they're different for all of us. But I can guarantee that when you...

• 1:22:39Speaker 01

  Pick a fear, you know, we all have many fears. Pick a fear and decide to challenge it face on and you get to the other side. I, I guarantee you will have a transformative experience that will serve you for the rest of your life. Um, because again, life is not smooth sailing. And I feel like through these experiences, I've been able to equip myself with, um, skills and lessons and how to deal with certain things. Um, and then also just dealing with people and, and, and. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I, I walk around every day with a heart that's full. And I just want to give back and I, I want

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  everybody to feel just a little bit of what I get to feel in a ordinary day. I mean, I feel spoiled, spoiled rotten because I am, am in this world that is right where I am supposed to be. And, um, and then to be able to share it with people and I love, you know, I love talking to little girls and you know, you just see these sparks of possibility light up in their head and

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  you know, just knowing that we're capable of doing far more than we think we can. And it's just about deciding that you're going to tackle something that might be uncomfortable, that might be a bit scary.

• 1:24:03Rich Roll?

  How do you wear that mantle as an inspirational woman in a culture? In which, you know, in this sort of Kardashian infused culture where the, the, you know, the influences on young women and on girls is coming from that direction, right? Like, you know, I've said this before on the podcast, but this idea that, that, uh, well, there's no, you know, where are all the inspirational women? Well, there's plenty, you know, there's people like you, there's lots of other people, you know, anonymously doing amazing things. We just don't do a very good job of shining a spotlight on these people and, and sort of elevating them into mainstream consciousness so that their influence can spill down to the younger generation.

• 1:24:48Rich Roll?

  So how do you sort of, you know, think about that and, and carry your advocacy to, you know, the young, the young women that you do encounter?

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, and I think the difference for a woman like myself who are trying to show, lead by example is that, you know, we're, we're, we're doing this for very, um,

• 1:25:08Speaker 01

  Different reasons. We're not doing, you know,

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  we're not doing it for fame and fortune. Um, there's certainly no fortune um involved in Marathon Over Water Swimming. But that's

• 1:25:20Rich Roll?

  You don't have Nike calling you, offering you the multimillion dollar endorsement contract?

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  But that's the

• 1:25:25Rich Roll?

  They should.

• 1:25:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's the beauty is that you're driven by

• 1:25:30Rich Roll?

  It's pure.

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  It's pure. You're in it for reasons that are meaningful and, you know, I, it does upset me to no end. Um, the Kardashian culture and idolization of that. Um, that sort of life. Um, it's very, very sad and I'm sure, you know, being a young girl is even more difficult than it was when I was growing up. Um, but I just hope that by continuing to do what I do, that one girl at least sees it and decides that she's going to take a path and push herself in a realm she didn't know she could do.

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  That it's not about fillers in your lips and

• 1:26:19Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  You know, plastic Yeah, it's not about that, you know, um. And, and, and I know from my past experience before all of this happened to me that I was very superficial and it was about things like that. But looking back, I was so hollow inside. Like, I had no sense of um philanthropy or helping others and now because I, I, I, I do that and I feel drawn to doing that, I am, like I said, my heart is so full every day. That's not to say that I don't have bad days, stressful days, you know, we all do, but for the most part, I just feel

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  that I know where my life is going. I know why I am here. And if I can just keep doing what I'm doing, um.

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  And that it inspires, you know, one girl, two girls, ten girls.

• 1:27:18Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  Um, then that's pretty special.

• 1:27:21Rich Roll?

  That is.

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:22Rich Roll?

  So, did we go through all the seven?

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  No, we didn't.

• 1:27:26Rich Roll?

  We didn't, we were still, yeah, let's pick that up again.

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there were.

• 1:27:29Rich Roll?

  After the English Channel, then what, then what happened?

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  I had two left. So I like to say that I left the best two for last. Saguru Strait, which is between the northernmost islands of Japan from Honshu to Hokkaido.

• 1:27:43Rich Roll?

  That's exotic.

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  Yes, and they call that stretch of water the Flying Dragon. That's what the locals call it because the wind whips up there. It's a treacherous stretch of water. There's sharks there. Um, but I, you know, I left it. I wanted to be as prepared as possible for that swim. And I'd learned Japanese in high school and I love the culture. I just love the etiquette and the people and everything. And so I was, um, very quickly connected with a number of people there, including some colleagues from Adobe. I work at Adobe, um, from their Japan office. And I'd written a little blog post on our, um, internal newsletter. And I said that this is what I was planning to do. And I put a little, I spoke in Japanese and I said, you know,

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  at the end, sort of in jest, anyone interested in a little boat ride? I ended up with three colleagues from my Adobe office on my crew with my mum. So my mum from New Zealand, she is like my chief crew, um, member. And people often ask her, like, how can you watch your daughter go through so much pain and suffering? And maybe get eaten by a shark, but she knows that, hey, I would do it anyways if she wasn't there. But she understands that if something happened to me, that that's, that would be the way I want to go. Um, and so I had this crew from the Adobe office.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  And we met the boat captain the night before and the wind was sort of howling as it is today, actually, in San Francisco.

• 1:29:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, for listeners, you could probably hear the wind go in the backyard. It's classic San Francisco.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:23Rich Roll?

  You just need the foghorn.

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. And so, yeah, very similar to this, the wind was still sort of howling and the boat captain, who I'm meeting for the first time the night before my swim, there's nothing like putting your life in the hands of somebody you've just met, but.

• 1:29:41Rich Roll?

  So veto didn't come to this one.

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  No, no, no. And this was a local fisherman and he barely spoke any English, but he was just the sweetest man and I bought him a bottle of whiskey as a sort of a gift and I said to him, you know, you can't drink this until the swim's over, don't drink this tonight.

• 1:30:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't worry.

• 1:30:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, and you know, we, we started to talk about logistics and then he said,

• 1:30:08Speaker 01

  he sort of pulled me aside and he had this sort of twinkle in his eye and he said, I think the dragon's going to be sleeping tomorrow. Well, went back to the hotel with my mom and the wind just started to die. And when it was time to meet the boat very early that next morning, there wasn't a breath of wind. The dragon was sleeping and my swim, some, the handful of people that have completed the swim, it's taken them, people that are faster than me, 17 hours.

• 1:30:39Speaker 01

  That swim took me just over nine hours. Conditions were unbelievable and I got very, very lucky because my crew weren't experienced. I mean, they were great, the great camaraderie and.

• 1:30:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, your colleagues at Adobe, I don't know what they're going to be able to do if you ran into trouble, right?

• 1:30:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So that was a bit of a gamble, but you know, mother nature was looking out for me and when I finished the swim and I got on the boat, you know, I, I write about all my swims because I want to remember them and it was literally minutes after getting on the boat, the wind just started to whip up and it was just. I just sort of imagined that that was the dragon's tail, just kind of like, you know, coming to life. And it was, it was, it was just meant to be. I mean, I, Mother Nature blessed me that day.

• 1:31:28Rich Roll?

  The sharks are sleeping, the dolphins are escorting you, and the dragon decides to take a nap. So the universe is definitely talking to you.

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  I really feel that something has been watching over me because, you know, then the next swim was the North Channel from Northern Ireland to Scotland, and that's about twenty one miles. The water temperature is fifty three, fifty four. And, you know, so for these swims, I'm bulking up as well. So people have different theories on how you can kind of protect yourself from the cold. Definitely exposure to cold water helps. You have to just keep getting in the water every day. But having a little extra weight, I call it-

• 1:32:13Rich Roll?

  You could be like a seal.

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  You do. I mean, you don't see any skinny seals out there, do you? You don't see their hip bones. So I call it my insurance policy. And having to shift the mindset from being a ballerina has been, has actually been as difficult as I thought, I would have thought because when you're out there in the ocean, it is life or death. And you want to come back alive, and you want to complete your swim. And so I, for the North Channel, I was up to one eighty five, one ninety. I had back fat. There's a picture of me getting in the water, and I have back fat.

• 1:32:58Rich Roll?

  You just eat everything in sight?

• 1:33:00Speaker 01

  Everything. When I was not sleeping or swimming, I was eating. And I have a video of like, the night before my North Channel swim with my mum and my two crewmates, and I'm eating a, a whole pizza. And I'm like, you know, This is a, this is a marathon event of eating and this is not a glamorous sport. This is behind the scenes, this is what happens. But that swim, I was well prepared for the cold. I, I'd bulked up and I'd been swimming consistently in cold water. I'd even, um, I lived in a little apartment by the Presidio and I had a backyard and I'd, I'd ordered a kiddie pool on Amazon.

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  I would fill it with ice and water and I would sit there in my swimsuit for as long as I could, reading magazines and my-

• 1:33:48Rich Roll?

  Like Wim Hof style.

• 1:33:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's amazing. And it was very difficult and I didn't take any warm showers for six months leading up to my swim. So at these clubs here in San Francisco, the Dolphin Club in the South End, when you come out of the water, you have a hot shower and then you get into a warm sauna. That's the way you warm up. I avoided all of that. But the big risk for that swim were the jellyfish. So they have these jellyfish called lion's mane jellyfish. And their gelatinous bellies are sort of the size of a, the tire of a Mini Cooper. And their um, tentacles go twelve to fifteen feet below the surface. I mean, they look beautiful when they're floating by at a distance.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  And at that point, only twenty six people had crossed the North Channel, um, compared to over a thousand with the English Channel.

• 1:34:41Speaker 01

  And my captain said to me, if you're stung in the first hour, the chances of you completing the swim are pretty, um, unlikely. I got stung in the first hour. I didn't tell my crew because I was like, I just gotta suck it up. And the pain is, um, I mean, excruciating. But then it kind of subsides a little bit and you know, you sort of get in your groove and you've got your endorphins that are sort of helping take the pain away. But what happened was I got stung hundreds of times. It was like swimming through landmines. There was a point where my crew would blow a whistle and I would notice stop because there would be a jellyfish in front of me, a jellyfish on my right, a jellyfish on my left.

• 1:35:25Speaker 01

  And so they're like, Kim, go back, go back, Kim, go left, go left, go left. And this is how they would navigate me across the North Channel. Meanwhile, my body is trying to fight the toxins and um, not focusing on keeping me warm. So I'm becoming hypothermic.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  Uh, I had trouble breathing. I didn't tell my crew. Um, I finished the swim.

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  They hauled me back on the boat. I don't remember finishing the swim. And um, my, one of my best friends, he was on the crew. His name's Matt. And he had promised that he would shower me with Guinness beer when I completed the swim. And there's a picture of me and I look like a cadaver, like I look dead. And um, and he's smiling as he's like pouring the Guinness beer over me. And I warm up, uh, we get back to Northern Ireland, we go back to the bed and breakfast. You know, when you do these swims, it's like coming out of general anesthesia, you kind of have to be monitored just, you know, and you're in pain. So like my mom took off my swimsuit, she gets me in the shower. And the bed and breakfast people had brought us a bottle of champagne and I'm having a glass of champagne

• 1:36:30Speaker 01

  in the shower and it's just hot shower and it's just luxurious. And mom's sitting on the lid of the toilet seat next to me just to keep an eye on me and then I just become really emotional of what I've completed. I'd completed my Ocean Seven.

• 1:36:43Rich Roll?

  How long was the period of time from the first to the seventh?

• 1:36:47Speaker 01

  Two years.

• 1:36:48Rich Roll?

  Two years. Uh huh. And so six people have done it.

• 1:36:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:53Rich Roll?

  And three women, right?

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. I'm the sixth person to complete it. And uh, I became really, really emotional as to what I had accomplished. Um, then I had significant trouble breathing. I was rushed to a respiratory ward, local hospital there. And then um, I was there for a few days and they finally discharged me because I bounced back pretty quickly. But then they said, what worries us about you is that because you're so fit, you're likely masking symptoms that would not, would, would be really apparent in an average person. And that's what happened. Um, on the flight back here, you know, they cleared me to fly. I felt like I had broken ribs. Uh, having trouble breathing and um, came back to my apartment.

• 1:37:38Speaker 01

  My mom had to fly on to New Zealand and a couple of my good friends, they have a key to my place and they let themselves in and they're like, what are you doing?

• 1:37:47Speaker 01

  Hadn't slept all night and I'm typing just gobbledygook on my computer. And they're like, we need to take you to the hospital. So then I go back up to my friends at CPMC here and I'm in their cardiac ward for a week. I had fluid of both my lungs around my heart. It was pulmonary edema from jellyfish toxicity.

• 1:38:10Speaker 01

  Then everyone was like, your swimming's over. Like.

• 1:38:12Rich Roll?

  How many days after the swim was that?

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  About a week.

• 1:38:16Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:38:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, about a week. It just, everything, like my body was able to kind of keep things at bay for longer than a normal person. And um, that was, then I spent a month in my apartment, basically bedridden. I didn't work. Um, and people were like, wow, you know, your sw- your swim's over. You're, you know, you're done.

• 1:38:40Rich Roll?

  And is Adobe like, like, they seem like they're really supportive.

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  Oh, they're fabulous.

• 1:38:45Rich Roll?

  But are they like, okay, Cam, time to come back to work. Like, we're totally into the fact that you're doing all this stuff, but like, you still have to like.

• 1:38:54Speaker 01

  I know, I know. No, they have been my cheerleaders, which has been really special. Um, and, and I've made a point of only using my vacation time for these swims. Um, but that last one, I had a medical vacation, I guess. But, but yeah, everyone was like, well, you know, you should probably take it easy. I think you're done with cold water and swims. And, but there was one swim that I wanted to do. And I wanted to do that when I fell in love with those Farallon Islands. And I wanted to be the first woman to swim from the Farallon Islands. And not sort of like in a competitive way, but more because like,

• 1:39:34Speaker 01

  those are my islands. Like, that's my spiritual place and I wanted that for me.

• 1:39:41Speaker 01

  And, um, that's what I set out to do.

• 1:39:44Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. So how long after the bedridden, uh, jellyfish shock experience before the Farallon swim?

• 1:39:55Speaker 01

  Eleven months.

• 1:39:56Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I got a clean bill of health. Um. And I trained, you know, and with doing these swims, like you, you, you're training sort of, you know, benefits the next swim and, and so on. And, um, but that swim, you know, as I'm talking to you, I'm looking at the Golden Gate Bridge from my window.

• 1:40:15Rich Roll?

  Right over there. For the farallon swim, did you take the boat out to the farillons and swim back?

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:40:21Rich Roll?

  So that was the difference.

• 1:40:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:22Rich Roll?

  And, and I read somewhere like this, this moment of, like that, that terrifying moment of when you, you're sort of standing at the edge of the boat and you're going to slip into that dark water and the mystery that that holds, like,

• 1:40:35Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:40:36Rich Roll?

  not knowing what's right underneath your feet.

• 1:40:38Speaker 01

  I mean,

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  I could have easily have slipped into the mouth of a great white shark. I mean, it was pitch black. It was 11:15 at night. And to give you some context, just 10 days before, um, uh, my, my training partner, who's actually an Aussie, so we have this Aussie Kiwi rivalry. His name's Simon Dominguez, very good friend of mine, and he had been attempting to solo the farillons, but in a direction nobody had done before, which is from the gate to the islands. Um, and it's just, you know, the tides are different. It's, it's, there's, both directions are tricky, but you know, you're also going into that ecosystem when you're tired.

• 1:41:20Speaker 01

  Um, and for him, he was dripping blood from his neck because the salt water can become so abrasive. When you know, when you turn your head and you've got the hairs on your back. Um, he was dripping blood. Um, his wonderful wife Sally was on the boat and one of his daughters, and they spotted a shark. He ended up getting circled by a great white shark and they pulled him onto the boat. And he was three miles from finishing.

• 1:41:46Rich Roll?

  Oh my God.

• 1:41:47Speaker 01

  Three miles.

• 1:41:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but who cares?

• 1:41:49Speaker 01

  I know, I know. Yeah, yeah. And, and you know, and I think he's, you know, he came to terms with that pretty quickly. Like, he has his life. But that was sort of the, the, the backdrop for my swim. So people were trying to convince me, do not do the swim. The sharks are back earlier this year.

• 1:42:08Rich Roll?

  Right. The time of year was not great for this.

• 1:42:11Speaker 01

  Right. No, no. But, you know, I, when I'm locked into something like,

• 1:42:17Speaker 01

  I'm gonna do it. And what surprised me, looking back, there wasn't a moment of, oh, yeah, you know, maybe I should just, yeah, not do it. Not at all, which is a little bit scary. I was committed to it. And so that was why the sharks were firmly on my mind. And that morning, there'd been a shark, a seal with his head bitten off in that cove. So there'd been a predation there that morning. But yeah, you know, I'm on the back of the boat about to slip into that water. And my mum, she's so sweet and funny. You know, the tension on the boat was just palpable, you know. And she sort of pops her head over and she's like, well, hurry up then, get in the water. And I'm like, mum.

• 1:43:02Rich Roll?

  Like just stripping away, like this is, yeah, come on.

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like mum, I'm just having a moment. But she was just.

• 1:43:11Rich Roll?

  That's great that she comes out and is there for you.

• 1:43:14Speaker 01

  And she.

• 1:43:15Rich Roll?

  That's amazing.

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's sixty six years old. And she's got all the gear, the warm, because you have to be warm. And she is out there on the boat, watching me the whole time and cheering me on. And she, I mean, she loves adventure too. And so she is, she's my main crew person. But and that swim was just, I had swimmers escort me. So after three hours, you're allowed to have a swimmer join you for an hour. But they have to swim behind you. So you can't be accused of drafting off of them. And so I just, the team was just an amazing group. They have a special place in my heart forever. And, you know, coming underneath that Gondget Bridge,

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  I will never forget. And I'm in tears. So after every swim, I've cried.

• 1:44:07Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:44:07Rich Roll?

  I think there's a video of that, of you crying after that.

• 1:44:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's not sadness. It's just like, like, I did that. Like, I really did it. And it still makes me teary eyed today because, you know, I could see the ferrelons this weekend. And because it was so clear and.

• 1:44:29Speaker 01

  I mean, it's madness. I mean, it it's pure madness, but we're capable of so much more than we think we are. And, um, you know, came back to shore to dock the boat. There was media everywhere and, um, but I'd I'd vomited during the swim and, you know, all I could think of was, oh, my gosh, I've just chummed the water. The sharks know I'm here now. Um, and I got on land and then I was sick again. And so they decided to, um, I convinced the Tiburon Fire Department to drive me back to CPMC from Tiburon. Um, but so my whole crew was like, well, you know, she's going to be admitted. She'll be there for two or three days. So we'll go see

• 1:45:12Speaker 01

  her tomorrow. Are they all I needed was four bags of IV fluids. And then they discharged me at midnight. And, um, you know, all I was wearing was my swimsuit that's covered in lanolin because it helps protect against chafing. My hair is all just disheveled.

• 1:45:29Rich Roll?

  Basically, you cover your whole body in like Crisco oil, essentially.

• 1:45:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's a real sexy sport.

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  And

• 1:45:36Rich Roll?

  There was that great picture in the New York Times. You covered in like, not, there wasn't one, you know, square inch of skin showing. Your whole face is covered in it and everything.

• 1:45:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was zinc oxide to protect from the sun. And, and, uh, yeah. So who would have thought my swimsuit glamour shot would be in the New York Times. Um, not exactly, um, Sports Illustrated, but, um, you know, and, and, you know, you're, you just look disheveled. You look like you're either, um, gone on some sort of bender on with illegal drugs. And you you look like you haven't slept for a long time, which you haven't. So it's not a good look. Um, they let me out of the hospital and I, they put me in a taxi and I sat on this, the, the step outside my apartment building. And this is a, this is a, a, a street that's frequented by, you know, people going to bars and everything. So I thought,

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  well, I'll just wait there because my mom, she had the key and she's tucked up here in my bed because she's like, well, she's gonna be admitted to hospital. I'll catch up with her tomorrow.

• 1:46:39Rich Roll?

  It's just normal. Yeah.

• 1:46:41Speaker 01

  And then so I had to wait for a drunk couple to come into my building. And I think they were just like, you live here? And I'm like, yeah, no, I live here. And, um, yeah. And then it was just. I mean, still, you know, but then what also happens after these swims, it's kind of this after drop. You know, you, you, you're striving for something and all your focus is on it. And there's a couple of days of you're still in sort of this fog of disbelief of, of joy. And then there's a, there's a drop.

• 1:47:20Rich Roll?

  Like that, that sort of

• 1:47:25Rich Roll?

  depressive state that comes in the aftermath, like that vac, because there's a vacuum, right? And you don't have that goal anymore.

• 1:47:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And for me, I've found that it becomes very lonely because when you are out there in the ocean, you are dealing with life or death.

• 1:47:46Speaker 01

  And

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  not many people have experienced that, um, and probably wouldn't recommend it, but you're looking, because you've connected it with life at such a primal level,

• 1:48:03Speaker 01

  it makes it more difficult to connect with people who haven't. And it's not to put me on a pedestal by any means. It, it's more that I have had experiences that few people have had and you, you want to connect with people at that level.

• 1:48:19Speaker 01

  So that's, that's always been a challenge for me.

• 1:48:21Rich Roll?

  Superficial interactions become less and less

• 1:48:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:26Rich Roll?

  tolerable.

• 1:48:27Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes. So it's just, there's so many learnings and it's, you know, and even when I do sort of go off this drop afterwards, it's sort of,

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  I reassure myself that this is, this is part of the journey and, um, and to be able to just feel those feelings of, um,

• 1:48:47Speaker 01

  you kind of feel like your, your anchor is loose and you don't know.

• 1:48:53Speaker 01

  Instead of.

• 1:48:54Rich Roll?

  So do you feel that urge or that pull to then set a big goal once again to fill that vacuum?

• 1:49:00Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes. And I haven't, I haven't completely settled on my next goal, which is frustrating for me because.

• 1:49:10Rich Roll?

  But it's, I think there's, there's a teachable moment in that too, because how do you find a way to experience gratitude and joy and, and feel fulfilled?

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:22Rich Roll?

  Without having to live so extreme. You know what I mean?

• 1:49:26Speaker 01

  Because it's not.

• 1:49:27Rich Roll?

  So maybe there's something there for you to learn.

• 1:49:29Speaker 01

  Right. Because it's not, um, I can't do this forever. And it's, you know, and it's the, the likelihood of it not ending well is it gets higher and higher.

• 1:49:41Rich Roll?

  Well, I think it requires you to examine it and try to parse what aspect of it is unhealthy versus healthy. Right. Cause there's definitely that, you know, as somebody who's prone to extremes myself, like you can, you can have an unhealthy relationship with that.

• 1:49:56Speaker 01

  Right? Yes. Yes.

• 1:49:57Rich Roll?

  And, and you will be championed for doing it and, and, and you will garner self-esteem and all these positive benefits of it. But on some level, there's that tinge, you know, that light dusting of sort of, of, of, of maybe an inappropriate relationship with it. Right. And so.

• 1:50:15Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Absolutely.

• 1:50:16Rich Roll?

  How do you find a, a new path as you get older?

• 1:50:19Speaker 01

  Right. Right. Because yeah, absolutely. Um, because when you know that you are sort of an all or nothing person and you give these adventures, everything like, um, you know, when I train for them, nobody's telling me, oh, you gotta wake up at four. And it's, you're accountable for yourself, but I do everything that I possibly can because I want to know that at the end of the day, because mother nature is always the boss. Um, but at the end of the day that I've controlled what I can control. And that I can tell myself that I gave it everything because I would feel disappointed in myself if I didn't give it everything.

• 1:51:01Speaker 01

  So there's just so many lessons and learnings and.

• 1:51:06Speaker 01

  It's a strange sport.

• 1:51:09Rich Roll?

  But you have a gift now, which is these experiences and what you've learned from them.

• 1:51:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:17Rich Roll?

  And a platform and a capacity to now deliver that message in service to other people.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:51:25Rich Roll?

  Right? And I think you can find a lot of that. This has been my experience. You can find a lot of that contentment

• 1:51:33Rich Roll?

  in the giving back.

• 1:51:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:35Rich Roll?

  You know, like that can fill the vacuum in a healthy way.

• 1:51:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And that's why I love, I mean, I'm a talker, so.

• 1:51:43Rich Roll?

  I know you get, you do, you do a lot of public speaking, right?

• 1:51:46Speaker 01

  And I love it. I just love it because I want people to realize like, you know, like I've said, that you're capable of doing far more than you think you can. And sure, I've done these swims that are extreme and that doesn't mean that you have to do them. But it's just motivating someone to think of their life differently. And to see possibilities.

• 1:52:08Rich Roll?

  And to break the chains of, of social expectations, to give yourself permission to explore, you know, an interior and exterior life that lives outside of kind of what you're quote unquote supposed to do, or what somebody else thinks that you should do.

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. Because our lives are pretty prescribed. And to be able to step out of that. And you might be surprised what you learn about yourself and equally the people that come into your life. I mean, I feel like I just, I live in this little bubble. And with these amazing people who I admire and I look up to and

• 1:52:52Speaker 01

  and they're just ordinary people. We're just ordinary people. I mean, we go to work every day. We have relationships. We, you know, but we're able to push ourselves

• 1:53:08Speaker 01

  and learn more about ourselves. And like I said, my soul has a few more wrinkles with every one of these swims. And my heart is so incredibly rich.

• 1:53:17Rich Roll?

  How would you articulate

• 1:53:21Rich Roll?

  your relationship with fear and overcoming fear?

• 1:53:27Speaker 01

  Fear is a motivator for me. If I am afraid of something, I know I have to do it. Um, doesn't make it easy and it's still scary. But I know, as I said earlier, that I know from experience now that

• 1:53:48Speaker 01

  the treasure in life lies exactly right over the other side of where you are most fearful and where you are most uncomfortable. And that's magic. When you can experience it for yourself, it's magic. And so for me, fear is a motivating factor for me.

• 1:54:10Rich Roll?

  I think that's a beautiful place to end it, but I do wanna ask you one more question.

• 1:54:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:54:17Rich Roll?

  For somebody who's listening to the podcast, who's maybe feeling stuck in the rut of their own experience and who has struggled with trying to see their way through to a more, you know, vibrant, fully actualized way of living, or somebody who maybe is, is sort of comfortably residing in that self-imposed prison of fear, uh, you know, what are, what are some steps that people could take to kind of, uh, cut that chain and become more fully expressed?

• 1:54:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a great, great question. I would say that because for me, doing these things that I'm fearful of, I haven't done it alone at all. I think it's about picking an area that is scary to you and finding a community that partakes in whatever that activity is, right? Because when you surround yourself with, it's about surrounding yourself with people that encourage it and say, and don't.

• 1:55:27Speaker 01

  You don't want somebody to say, well, that's, that's really scary. Like, you probably shouldn't be doing that. Like, you know, surround, find the people, find the people that are doing what you wanna do. That is scary to you. Like, I'm terrified of big waves on the beach. Terrified. My friends make fun of me. I'm like, how big are the waves? They're like, double over ankle. I'm like, what? That's too big. You know, um, and I'm trying to surround myself with people that I, I try and, I'm trying to get over that fear by getting back into that water. But the key is that, don't try to do this alone. Because it is about community. It's about camaraderie. And it's about finding those people who are gonna say, why not?

• 1:56:13Speaker 01

  That's a great idea.

• 1:56:15Rich Roll?

  And trusting your instinct, right?

• 1:56:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:56:17Rich Roll?

  Whatever that little tickle in the back of your mind is, that's bugging you to go try something new.

• 1:56:22Speaker 01

  Cause it's there for a reason. It's there for a reason. And knowing that, you know what? As far as we know, we've only got one shot at this life. And, um, to put it bluntly, like, you've just gotta suck the marrow out of it. Because it's all we have. And, you know, tomorrow is not guaranteed for any of us. All we have is right now. And

• 1:56:46Speaker 01

  I think it's up to all of us, we owe it to each of ourselves, to be the best version of ourselves. And I can guarantee when you face your fears and you break through those fears, you will get closer to being the best you can ever be.

• 1:57:03Rich Roll?

  Boom. We did it. That was so awesome.

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:57:08Rich Roll?

  That was fantastic.

• 1:57:09Speaker 01

  Thank you for listening. I told you I was a talker.

• 1:57:13Rich Roll?

  No, it was great. You're, you are an inspiration. Uh, we need more powerful women like yourself. And I just applaud all the things that you have done, but more importantly, um, the way that you articulate. You know, I think, I think people are gonna be really inspired by this and, and your message is super powerful. So, thank you.

• 1:57:32Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

• 1:57:35Rich Roll?

  Cool. So if you wanna connect with Kim, the best way to do that is you can go to kimswims.com. That's your website.

• 1:57:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:57:42Rich Roll?

  Uh, at Kimberly Swims on Twitter, right?

• 1:57:46Speaker 01

  Yep, yep. Spelt the Queen's way. K I M B E R L E Y. Kimberly Swims. And also on Instagram. Yes.

• 1:57:54Speaker 01

  I'm part of the com- and also on Instagram, Kimberly Swims.

• 1:57:58Rich Roll?

  And you have any upcoming like speaking engagements or anything like that? I guess on your website probably.

• 1:58:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm still trying to get those locked down for the year. And then I'm also thinking about what my next adventure is and I can't wait to share that with everybody.

• 1:58:10Rich Roll?

  Well, when you figure that out, come back and talk to me about it.

• 1:58:13Speaker 01

  I will.

• 1:58:14Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 1:58:14Speaker 01

  I will. Thanks. Thanks so much.

• 1:58:16Rich Roll?

  Awesome. Peace. Blatz.

• 1:58:28Rich Roll?

  I don't know, you guys, I don't think it gets much better than that. Kim is just amazing. She is so well spoken, so articulate. Her story is just unbelievably captivating and inspiring. And my hope is that she has not only inspired you to do more, but that she has triggered something in you to help you rethink, reframe, how we perceive our lives, our paths, our trajectories, our limitations and our collective potential. Again, if you're digging on Kim, you can find out more about her at kimswims.com. Also, I wanted to point out that there is this wonderful documentary about Kim that highlights her Farallon swim. It's aptly titled Kim Swims.

• 1:59:13Rich Roll?

  It was directed and produced by Kate Weber, who I also would like to thank for the photos of Kim that we used in this episode. And you could find that documentary and watch it and learn more at kimswimsfilm.com. Kimswimsfilm.com. As always, these links can be found in the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com, where you will find tons of additional articles and resources, all relevant to today's conversation. If you would like to receive a free short weekly email from me, I send something out every week, every Thursday called Roll Call. It's basically five or six interesting things that I stumbled across over the course of the week, a book I'm reading, an article I read, a podcast I listened to, a documentary I watched,

• 1:59:56Rich Roll?

  a product that has enriched my life somehow. And that's it. Often it's things I don't share on social media. There's no spam. There's no affiliate links. I'm not trying to make any money off this. I'm just trying to cultivate community and kind of connect with you guys more deeply on subject matters relevant to the podcast, but sort of also tangential to it. So. If that sounds like something you would be into, no pressure, you can sign up for it on my website at ritual.com. And that's it. Never going to spam you. I've got a new resources page on ritual.com also that I'm continuing to kind of fill out. It's still in its infancy, but basically it's a place where I'm going to put all the books, all the products, all the kind of websites that I think can help enrich your life, all informed

• 2:00:39Rich Roll?

  by my journey and kind of the journey of this podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in today. Again, I appreciate you guys sharing this show with your friends. If you haven't done so already, please leave a review. It's a great way to support the mission and click that subscribe button if you haven't done so already. Keep using that Amazon banner ad at ritual.com. That does help us out a ton. And mad love and mucho respect for everybody who has gone the extra mile to support my work on Patreon. That just warms my heart. Every time I get an email indicating that somebody is supporting what I pour my heart and soul into every week and doing it by reaching into their pocketbook, it just blows my mind. And I just, I can't thank you enough for that vote of confidence and that level

• 2:01:21Rich Roll?

  of support means the world to me. If you would like signed copies of our books, Finding Ultra, The Plant Power Way, we've got cool t-shirts, we've got tech tees, all kinds of cool, sweet schwag and merch. You can find all of that on my website, ritual.com. I also want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiello for audio engineering and production, Sean Patterson for all his graphic wizardry, Chris Swan for all the heavy lifting on compiling the show notes and additional production assistance and background research and all kinds of stuff. And theme music, as always, by Analemma. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here soon. Appreciate the support. Have a great week. Make it count. Be great. Be yourself. Be authentic. Stay true. Peace. Thanks.