Mindset Flip: Getting Real About Your Relationship With Alcohol | The Mel Robbins Podcast

Order your copy of The Let Them Theory 👉 https://melrob.co/let-them-theory 👈 The #1 Best Selling Book of 2025 🔥 Discover how much power you truly have. It all begins with two simple words. Let Them. — Today on the podcast, you and I are having a deeply personal and eye-opening conversation about #alcohol and your relationship to it. Rachel Hart is a best-selling author and master #coach who has helped thousands of people re-examine their relationship with alcohol, and that’s exactly what she is going to help you do today. Rachel knows the surprising reason you (and I) crave a #drink (or have the urge to shop, vape, play video games, scroll on social media, or want something sweet). She’ll also explain that weird cycle of emotions you experience after #drinking. Did I drink too much last night? Did I do anything I regret? Should I stop drinking altogether? Should I detox this week before the wedding next weekend? How do I drink less? Maybe it’s time I stopped altogether. You’ll learn that this agitation and conflict about alcohol are normal. The question is, How do you change it? Rachel says, by examining the desires underneath the urge. Today, Rachel will help you unpack urges and desires and teach you why boundaries go right out the window when you feel an urge. Today you’ll learn: - What your drinking might really be all about (it’s not what you think) - Why feeling conflicted about drinking is normal - Where do urges really come from, and how do you ignore them? - How your first experience with alcohol impacts your relationship with it - What your desires are trying to tell you - How to ditch the shame once and for all - The complicated messaging around alcohol - The 30-day plan Rachel uses with all her clients Not sure if you have a problem with alcohol? Worried about someone else who does? You're not ready to quit alcohol all together, but you wish you’d not reach for the glass of wine most nights. Wonder if maybe you should stop? Perfect. Listen in. You can change your relationship with alcohol. After this episode, you’ll know how. Xo, Mel In this episode: 00:00 Intro 02:24 Why is your relationship with alcohol so confusing? 09:12 The shame cycle I go through every time I drink 14:56 Has drinking become your way of belonging in a social setting? 18:15 You are creating boundaries that justify your cravings and urges. 22:02 What your urges and cravings are trying to communicate to you 29:35 Tool #1: Name the urge when it’s happening. 36:34 Tool #2: Change your phone wallpaper to this 40:32 Stop looking for answers from others. You have an inner knowing of what’s best for you. 49:39 Tool #3: Ask yourself, If you couldn’t drink for the rest of your life, what would it feel like? 56:30 Disappointment when you give up your urges is normal. 59:35 How to stop drinking without stopping drinking 1:02:25 The difference between your upper and lower brain and what you need to know 1:08:14 Learning how to change means having a different relationship with commitment. 1:17:13 Tool #4: Establish your "why" — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 0:08Mel Robbins?

  Okay, I'm so glad you're here today because today is one of those conversations where I need you to put your arm around me. You know how I always say that the Mel Robbins Podcast is like you and I going on a walk together and sorting out life and all kinds of topics together? Well, today, I want to talk about something that's been on my mind for a long time, and that is my relationship with alcohol. And if I'm being honest, I've resisted having this conversation on the podcast because I'm not ready to remove alcohol from my life entirely, but I am so conflicted about drinking. I know it's bad for my health. I have so many other healthy habits, and yet I still love to have a cocktail. I still love to

• 0:50Mel Robbins?

  have a glass of wine. And maybe it's because Chris doesn't really drink that much, and so I often am confronted with, do I have a glass of wine alone? Do I not? And this isn't just a conversation about alcohol. You may not have any issue with alcohol. You may be sober. You may not really drink at all. You may be able to have one beer or one glass of wine and never think about it. But you probably have something else in your life that you're conflicted about. Maybe it's how much money you spend. Maybe it's an addiction to sugar. Maybe you play way too many video games, or you spend too much time scrolling on social media. You know it's a problem, or maybe you wonder if it's a problem, and you keep going back and forth. I should stop, but I don't stop. Should I stop? I don't know. What should I do? Well, a friend of mine told me about

• 1:35Mel Robbins?

  this incredible woman named Rachel Hart. Rachel is an expert at helping people understand their urges and create healthier and normal relationships with the things in life that you crave. Her work focuses on creating, quote, "a normal relationship with alcohol," whatever that might mean for you. But everything that we're going to talk about today is going to help you take control of any area of your life where you feel this conflict, or you feel out of control, or you wonder if you have a problem, and you just can't seem to get to the bottom of it. Here we go. Put your arm around me, because this is going to be one of those episodes where I'm processing my feelings in real time,

• 2:17Mel Robbins?

  live in our conversation, as you and I are walking and talking. So, let's do this. Rachel Hart, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Thank you. Okay, Rachel. We're just gonna jump in with a confessional, is that okay? I mean, is this the way that we should start this thing?

• 2:33Speaker 01

  By all means.

• 2:33Mel Robbins?

  Okay, great. I've just noticed that I have a lot of agita about it. Should I drink? Should I not drink? Is it bad if I'm drinking? And I wanted to talk to you because I just love your approach. I love your approach to, as you say, having a quote "normal relationship" with alcohol in your life and understanding your urges. And I don't even know where to begin. The more that I learn about neuroscience and the body and the fact that alcohol is poison, the more I'm thinking to myself, "Why the fuck am I drinking? If it's this bad for me?" "Oh yeah, I know, because I like the taste of it." And every once in a while, it's fun to celebrate with friends. So that's me. That's me, the hot mess, Mel Robbins.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  Or maybe not a hot mess.

• 3:17Mel Robbins?

  A little bit.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  Maybe normal to be conflicted.

• 3:19Mel Robbins?

  Is it normal to be conflicted about alcohol?

• 3:21Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes, of course it is. I always say that the relationship that you have with alcohol is such a window into the relationship that you have with yourself. And so, from that place, it can be so much more than, "Oh, I just don't want to drink anymore." Or, "I want to drink less." Or, "I want to just make more intentional choices." And I think all of those are great goals. But the idea of, you know, what is it that you really want? Like, what is it that you're really desiring? I talk to people about that a lot. And I think that the work that you do to change your relationship with alcohol can be such a powerful window into that.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  This is also such a highly-charged issue, right? And so, a lot of times, people have that intuition. They have that kind of inner knowing of like, "I don't know, maybe I want to look more closely at this." But then like, "Oh God, what does that mean? Do I have to stop drinking for the rest of my life? Do I have to put a label on?" So... What you are experiencing, I just want to say is very normal. The conflict that you have, you know, for a long time, I was like, do I have a split personality? What is going on? Because part of me had so much desire and love to drink, and part of me was also like, I don't know that this is creating the best outcomes for you. And I thought that that conflict was a sign that something was wrong with me, rather

• 4:48Speaker 01

  than, you know, you've got two different parts of your brain that care about different things. And so, yeah, you're going to be conflicted sometimes about your desires. That's normal.

• 4:58Mel Robbins?

  Is it appropriate for me to tell you this soon in our relationship that I love you? I've started to think about this like there's something wrong with me and I have a problem. And when I look at everybody's relationship with alcohol, it is kind of fucked up. I even look at our 20-somethings, and their relationship with alcohol is crazy, you know, like they just go on these benders, and then it's like, oh, I'm not going to drink all week, I got to get back healthy again. And that's what I used to be like. And I think about how much effort goes into the, am I going to have a gin and tonic tonight? Or am I not going to have anything at all? And then if I do have a drink, I should probably take some Advil before I go to bed.

• 5:42Mel Robbins?

  And the whole cycle that happens in the morning, when you feel kind of hung over, and I wake up and I'm like, why did I do that? Now I'm not as clear, and I don't feel like exercising. And I probably shouldn't have had that wine, and it tasted like shit anyway, and it was a lot of sugar. And so I realize that there's a lot of active energy that I have around alcohol, and I wanted to talk to you because I'm like, I'm pretty sure I don't have a problem, but what I do have a problem with is the amount of conflict that I feel like I'm doing something wrong. And I feel like I have a split personality, because I literally argue for it and against it every single time I use it, where I'm like, well, it's just a gin and tonic, for God's sakes. I mean, it's just, like, who cares?

• 6:26Mel Robbins?

  And then I'm like, well, you know, the poison, and, you know, you said you weren't going to drink tonight, so you're a liar, and that means you have a problem. And then I'm like, well, no, I don't, because I'm just having a gin and tonic, for God's sakes, and then I fill it up with Topo Chico after that, so... What's wrong with that? Well, you know, you said you weren't gonna drink and then that's a this and then you're gonna sleep like shit cuz you're in menopause and like it's like this beat down. So,

• 6:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:51Mel Robbins?

  Help me. Help me. Help all of us. How did you start doing this? Do you drink? I have so many questions.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. Well, so I mean, I will say that I started drinking in college. I was seventeen.

• 7:03Mel Robbins?

  Oh, that's late. I'm a way better drinker than you are. I started at fourteen, man.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  I was very quickly like, oh, this is the solution to all my problems. Like, we don't have to feel awkward. We don't have to feel anxious. I don't have to listen to any of my internal critic or any of my, you know, hangups. This is amazing. Where has this been? That was my experience. What you're describing, the kind of twenty-something that I like would work very hard during the week. Also during the week, a constant kind of PS, don't ever make any mistakes. Don't do anything wrong. You must do everything perfectly. And then the weekend for me was my outlet to be like, okay, like finally, not only do I get to stop feeling anxious and awkward and have these hangups, but also

• 7:50Speaker 01

  I can like be a little wild and mess up. And this is the way to feel sexy and confident and have fun. And so, you know, that was something that my brain was learning. And I think it's really important to to reiterate that we are learning something when we drink. The brain is always learning. So we're not just learning to acquire the taste. We're learning, hey, this is what we do when we watch the game or at sporting events or at celebrations or on vacation. So we're, we're learning both when we do it and we're also learning, this is how I relax, right? This is how I connect. This is how I open up. And so, all of that is unconsciously happening below the surface. And I think we get to

• 8:34Speaker 01

  this point where we start to wanna examine our drinking and maybe I wanna drink less or maybe I'm unsure about this. And we are trying to do it from this place of, okay, well, I know it's not good for me, right? I know I shouldn't do this or I should be more responsible. As opposed to, hey, you know, what has my brain learned, right? Can I start to understand that? Can I start to teach my brain something different about what alcohol is a symbol for? I mean, it's, it becomes a symbol for so many things. And I think We just look at it from the superficial of like, oh, I just like the taste, right? Or like, I was like, I'm just into craft cocktails. That's just my thing.

• 9:17Mel Robbins?

  I like the ceremony and the smoke and the sprig of rosemary that comes out of that thimble that they serve it in for $20, right?

• 9:28Speaker 01

  But right, there is so much, I mean, you think about it. You know, you go to a fancy restaurant and you're getting the wine pairing and the sommeliers coming over and it's, you're getting all this information about, you know, where it was grown and the type of grape and yeah, I mean, we are like building up all of this kind of excitement and drama around it. And by the way, I'm not saying any of that is bad, but I think we just have to understand that like, there's a reason that we attach all this kind of symbolism and desire and, and what it starts to represent. So that's all going on, you know, and then we have the other side of, okay, well, if

• 10:11Speaker 01

  I had too much to drink, I was obviously stupid and I should know better. And why am I still making these same mistakes? I should have grown out of this by now. So there's this idea that all of our desire and urges should just be conquered by our intellect and that doesn't make any sense.

• 10:30Mel Robbins?

  I just love everything that you're saying because I'm starting to realize that one of the reasons why I've never been drawn toward just being a person that doesn't have alcohol in their life. I know for some people, it's incredibly important and empowering and it is the choice that is the right choice and the choice you need to make. But for me, there was something about it that felt.

• 10:59Mel Robbins?

  Like a part of the thing I'm already doing, which is making myself wrong. About the urges. And I have always said to myself that I just wish I could be the kind of person that had no drama around it, that if I wanted a glass of wine, I had a glass of wine in the moment. I wouldn't have this whole shame cycle and conflict of whether or not I'm gonna drink or not drink. And when you said the thing about how, like, it's part of how we watch sports, it made me realize there are so many stories that your brain has learned about when and where and why you drink alcohol.

• 11:42Mel Robbins?

  And I think the single two biggest stories for me are, number one, that alcohol for me is about belonging. Not belonging to the alcohol. But my brain has hardwired the moment that I first had to drink when I was 14 years old. And I was dating somebody who was two grades ahead of me. And in, at that point in time, I think you could, it was still grandfathered in that if you were 18, you could buy alcohol in Michigan. And so my boyfriend could buy alcohol. And we would go out to Lake Michigan. And I remember when we were first dating, we pull into the state park.

• 12:26Mel Robbins?

  And there are all the seniors out there. And my boyfriend was a junior and I was a freshman. And I was so scared because I was the only freshman that was out at that beach. The sun was setting. We get out of the car. He grabs my hand. We walk towards all his friends. And one of the gals turns me and says, "Hey Mel, would you like a rum and coke?" And when she handed me that rum and coke in a red solo cup, I immediately exhaled and was like, "Okay, I'm part of the group." And so the trigger for me is anytime the waiter comes around or I'm going over to a friend's house. This just happened last night. I was, I was not planning on having anything to drink last night.

• 13:10Mel Robbins?

  And then I went over to my friend's house. She had two glasses out and a bottle of Sancerre. And she poured two glasses and said, "Let's go walk around the garden." And I'm like, "Okay." You know, like, "Okay, I'm gonna join in with you." And...

• 13:27Mel Robbins?

  It feels good to join in and the sunset tasted great and I had a glass of wine. That was that. And then I came home, but of course, as I'm driving home, Rachel, I'm like, why'd you do that?

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Right. Because you're making it mean that you did something wrong.

• 13:40Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  As opposed to like, can we just love your brain for a second? That it's like, hey, I want to belong. How normal of me, how human of me that I want to feel connected, right? And at some point, you're 14 and the brain's like, oh, this is how we belong. Like you have the red solo cup. I have the red solo cup. Look, belonging. And so that's what I'm talking about when I'm saying like, what was your brain learning? Right now, you not, may not have made consciously that connection in that moment, but at some point, your brain did make that connection. It did make that association. And so then it's like, wait, if, if this is the symbol of belonging and I want to belong, because

• 14:26Speaker 01

  who doesn't? And it's like, okay, so I go see my friend and she pours two drinks and I'm like, no, thank you. Are we disconnected now? Do I not belong?

• 14:35Mel Robbins?

  The other moment that I really love to have a drink is after a really awesome, busy day at work. It's a celebration and it is a lever because I work so hard. It's like, oh, this is signaling to my brain that I can turn off the working brain and I can shift down into, oh, it's time to relax and not think about work mode.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Well, it becomes a boundary, right? And so I, I talk about a lot of-

• 14:59Mel Robbins?

  A boundary? Oh, whoa. Wait a minute. So wait, wait. So a drink becomes a boundary? That is genius.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  I'm off the clock, right? This is my boundary. I have poured the drink. I am off the clock.

• 15:12Mel Robbins?

  Oh my God, you're right.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  And so then it's like, okay, so now I'm going to try to say no. I didn't understand that it was a boundary. So now my brain's like, okay, so we're still on the clock and I have to keep thinking, but I've been thinking all day long and I don't want to think about work anymore. This is my permission not to think.

• 15:34Mel Robbins?

  I freaking love you. I feel like you are literally showing me a whole new world. Because I have made it so much about the alcohol that I'm conflicted on the surface. And what you're trying to get us to see is, hold on a sec. Drop deeper into what the where and when means and why you have the urge. Like, it's almost as if you're saying, "Let's just remove alcohol from the conversation for a minute, and let's talk about this urge that you have, and why there's such a conflict." Holy shit.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. You've just kind of unconsciously practiced saying yes for a number of different reasons. And it will often kind of just be under this umbrella of, "I just like to drink." Right? "I like the way it makes me feel." But you're on autopilot, and in order to get you off, we have to start to figure out, "How do I interrupt?" And how do I interrupt the habit can be as simple as literally naming it and normalizing it. And so this is something that I teach people very early on, and it seems kind of too simple to work, to really just, you know, maybe you're like sitting on the couch, watching TV, you know, watching a show, and you see someone drinking, and then all of a sudden it's like, "Ooh, that would be good."

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Or maybe you find yourself like getting up out of your couch, headed to the kitchen, and you're like, "What am I even doing?" Right? And just like all of a sudden, you know, "Oh, I'm like going to pour a drink." Or you're driving home, and you have that kind of like, "Oh, I could like stop at the wine shop and pick up a bottle of wine." To just name what's happening and then normalize what's happening is so powerful. And what I mean by that is simply like, "Oh..." This is an urge. I'm having an urge. Of course, like, of course, my brain is expecting a reward right now because it's used to, my day is done, let's have a glass of wine. Or it expects that when we cook dinner, we have a glass of wine. So naming it, so naming

• 17:45Speaker 01

  what's happening, and then also normalizing it. So not making it a problem, not making it mean that something is wrong with you. It like, just that alone, sometimes is enough to interrupt the habit. It's enough to kind of take you off autopilot because all of a sudden, you're in the place of being the watcher. So you're watching what's happening inside of your brain. You're naming it. So you're in that place of authority. And you're also, I think, turning down the anxiety level. Because when people want to change their relationship with alcohol, they can start to have a lot of anxiety about the intensity of their urges, or about how many excuses they have. I have a lot of people who'll say, oh, my brain is so tricky, but will come up with all these excuses. And just

• 18:27Speaker 01

  be like, no, no, like, that's what the lower brain does. And I would say, like, one of the thoughts for me for the longest time was just, I deserve it. Right?

• 18:35Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  I deserve it.

• 18:37Mel Robbins?

  I just said that last night. Last night. I literally was just like, I fucking work hard. I have no vices, other than swearing and having a cocktail.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 18:46Mel Robbins?

  Seriously. Like, am I, is it really coming to this, Mel? Really? Like, come on, woman. You do a lot of good in the world. You're a kind person. Occasionally, you eat a Danish. I mean, you might hit the weed every once in a while, but you know, that's organic. So you want a gin and tonic, or a tequila on the rocks. Give yourself a fucking break. Like, literally, I deserve it.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  What's the it in I deserve it?

• 19:09Mel Robbins?

  The it, I guess, is...

• 19:17Mel Robbins?

  It's turning my brain off. It's a reward. It's the boundary.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Permission to stop thinking about work?

• 19:23Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there's so much awareness and insight that is available if you're able to approach your urges as like a source of inner intelligence. Like, it's trying to communicate something to you, something that you're desiring, something that you need, something that you want, that maybe has nothing to do with alcohol. We get so caught in this story as opposed to, maybe it's trying to tell me something about a deeper desire. Maybe it's trying to communicate, hey, what do I actually need? Maybe I need a boundary. Maybe I need to give myself permission. Maybe I need more belonging. Maybe I need more pleasure. But we can't get that information if the urge is always this thing that we hate

• 20:07Speaker 01

  and we wish would go away, and why do I have so many, and, you know, why is it so hard for me?

• 20:12Mel Robbins?

  Rachel, what you're talking about right now is the crux of this whole topic, because it's not about alcohol at all. At least, that's what I'm getting from you. The alcohol is just what we are doing in response to the urge. And what you're saying is the urge is what you need to start to understand. In my case, that means the urge to belong, or the urge to set up a boundary and turn my work brain off. It's not really about the taste of a gin and tonic. It's that the taste of the gin and tonic has gotten fused with that urge. Wow. Okay, we got a lot to unpack.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:51Mel Robbins?

  So let's hit pause, hear a word from our amazing sponsors. And when we return, we're going to dig deep into urges and how to get control of them. We'll be right back.

• 21:09Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins, and I am so glad you're here. You got your arm around me on this walk we're taking together. And we've got Rachel Hart here, who works with clients around the world who want to change their relationship with alcohol, whether that means going completely sober or... Or it means just taking control. And what Rachel's been teaching us is that this really isn't about the alcohol. It's about taking control of urges, urges to drink, urges to spend money, to stay in bed when you said you would exercise, to reach for your phone when you feel bored, to play video games for hours on end. And learning how to control your urges and your responses to them, that's the secret to everything.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I want to start with the word control because I think a lot of times people come to this work and they think, oh yeah, controlling my urges would be, I can make them go away.

• 22:01Mel Robbins?

  Oh, you can't.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Well, unless you can get rid of your lower brain,

• 22:08Speaker 01

  we're not going to be able to make the urge go away. Can you tell us about that? At a very basic level, we have a lower brain that is concerned with the immediate moment. It does not care about tomorrow. It does not care about the future. It cares about right now. Let me find pleasure. Let me find a reward. And the brain was designed that way, and that's normal. That's not a problem. What we have to do is figure out, how do I get into that place of, yep, I see that you want it, right? I see that you, that we have this desire. How do I feel more comfortable with it? So really like naming and normalizing is a huge thing for so many people.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  Like, of course I have this desire. Like, just that can be so powerful for people.

• 22:55Mel Robbins?

  So the higher brain is the one that you're using to tolerate the urge.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, but notice how you're a little disappointed when I said that to you.

• 23:03Mel Robbins?

  Yes, very.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  We're not going to be able to make the urge go away. Why are you disappointed?

• 23:08Mel Robbins?

  Because it would be nice if I didn't like have any urge because then there would be no conflict because I wouldn't be thinking about it.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  I think what we forget is that like urges are part of the human experience for everything, right? It's not just like the urge to drink, right? Like, we have the urge to eat maybe more than we want to. We have the urge to stay in bed when actually we told ourselves that we were going to wake up and exercise in the morning.

• 23:31Mel Robbins?

  Rachel, how do you change your relationship with those urges? I mean, do you recommend to the people that work with you that you just go cold turkey and you stop drinking? Kind of like a lot of us do for Dry January?

• 23:41Speaker 01

  That's a question that I get a lot from people in terms of, so should I, should I just stop, right? Like, what's the right answer here? And, you know, I always really want to have people back up and sometimes actually take forever off the table because culturally, we have this idea that if you have a problem, the solution is to stop drinking for the rest of your life. And that is so overwhelming for a lot of people. And so sometimes I just say, listen, like, what if we stop making a decision for what you're gonna do, you know, starting now until you're 80? What if we just say, like, what do I want to do today, this week, this month? I mean, that's why I really think it is very powerful to

• 24:26Speaker 01

  experiment with periods of taking a break from drinking. That was something that was really powerful for me. And I think the truth is, I don't know. I don't know what's the right answer. And I also think it's okay if your answer changes over time. So I think that's the other thing is, we don't really examine alcohol or drinking as a relationship that can change over time.

• 24:51Mel Robbins?

  I guess it can change over time. I know, my relationship with alcohol has changed over time, but it strikes me that your approach is so counterintuitive. Because I've always thought that the answer for me was, Mel, you just got to stop drinking, period, altogether, forever. That's it. We're done here.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  When I work with people, and taking a break is one of the things that I have people do as an experiment.

• 25:15Mel Robbins?

  You mean, like, the same way we go 30 days and not drink during Dry January?

• 25:20Speaker 01

  So a lot of people are familiar with, like, Dry January or Sober October, right? Like, these ideas that we can spend a month removing alcohol from our lives and practicing saying no. The piece where I kind of struggle with that is, we don't really give people any tools on how to do it, other than just don't drink, and maybe avoid temptation, or don't put yourself in compromising situations. And taking a break is part of one of the things that, that I have people do as an experiment. But it's all about using a set period of time to practice skills, right?

• 25:56Mel Robbins?

  I'm not following how your approach is different than, say, the times that I've taken a break from drinking and participated in Dry January.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  I have people take a 30 day break from drinking.

• 26:10Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  And I believe it's very different than kind of like a dry January or sober October, because what I'm always telling people is the 30 days, I want you to focus on using the tools. Yes, we are using the tools to say no, but I want you to focus on like all the techniques to manage my urges, all the techniques to talk back to my excuses. You know, dry January, the point is making it 30 days.

• 26:37Mel Robbins?

  Hmm.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  And I'm like, listen, we're doing these 30 days. It doesn't matter if you drink on day number two. That's good data. Right? That means something didn't work. Let's look at what didn't work. I want you to focus on using the tools. I'm going to be using these tools and I'm going to be discovering some work better than others. I will tell you, that's a huge mindset shift for people. A lot of people, you know, they say I'm all or nothing when it comes to drinking. I actually think they're all or nothing about commitment. Right? I either was committed and I did it right and gold star, or I broke my commitment and now it's like, okay, why bother? Right? I made a mistake, so now I get to have as much as I want.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Learning how to change means developing a different relationship with commitment. Like, okay, yesterday.

• 27:30Mel Robbins?

  Wait, say that again.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Learning how to change means developing a different relationship with commitment. You can't have an all or nothing relationship with commitment. It can't be, I was good, I was committed and I followed through and I was good, or I broke my commitment and I was bad. That mindset, you're screwed.

• 27:50Mel Robbins?

  So what do you do with that person who says, okay, we're going to do the 30 days of not drinking and I'm going to try the tools? And you get really, really horrible news. The last time I wasn't drinking, I got news that a friend of ours died. And I was like, fuck this shit, I'm having a cocktail. So if I were doing the 30 days with you, what is the data, like, what can I learn from that day where I didn't keep my commitment to myself?

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, look back, what was happening in the moment? Right? Like, when you were saying, "Fuck this shit", what was going on? What were you saying, "Fuck this shit" to?

• 28:33Mel Robbins?

  Um, life being hard, commitment being hard. If I go a little bit deeper, it was being really pissed off and really sad that my friend had died. And wanting to just,

• 28:48Mel Robbins?

  like, numb it out.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:51Mel Robbins?

  All I wanted to do was fucking have a drink and lay down on the couch and cry about my friend.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, so all of a sudden, we get to see it like through the lens of like, oh, it was sadness, it was grief. It was the belief that like, this emotion is too big, it's too much, I can't handle it, I don't want to be with it, I shouldn't have to be with it. Which also, so normal.

• 29:17Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  And so it's like, yeah, of course, your brain went to the thing that it's like, I know how we get out. Like, I know the shortcut. Here's the shortcut to not have to feel our emotions, we have to drink.

• 29:30Mel Robbins?

  That's the lower brain, right?

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:32Mel Robbins?

  That's the lower brain going, I recognize this pattern.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Right. And so all of a sudden, it's like, oh, okay, what, this wasn't me breaking my commitment and being bad. This was me in the moment of having all of this pain and sadness bubble up, not feeling like I had an alternative for how to manage it or handle it.

• 29:52Mel Robbins?

  Hmm. How does recognizing that help you have a stronger muscle when it comes to commitment? You're either good or you're bad. You're either have integrity or you don't. You either stick to your promises or you're a fuck-up. And you never will. Like, you know, like that kind of thinking. And if I take on a 30-day challenge and I fuck it up on day 12, then

• 30:20Mel Robbins?

  I fucked up the whole thing.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Right. But remember, what did I say the, the goal of the challenge was?

• 30:27Mel Robbins?

  It's not to not drink for 30 days?

• 30:29Speaker 01

  No, I know.

• 30:30Mel Robbins?

  Isn't it to not drink for 30?

• 30:31Speaker 01

  It's not drinking, right? We said not drinking. It's not drinking.

• 30:35Mel Robbins?

  The goal was to use the tools.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Use the tools.

• 30:38Mel Robbins?

  But I didn't lose the tools, so I actually didn't do the challenge. See how quick I am to like go bad, Mel.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Okay, so now we don't use. So like this happens on day two, so day three, we can't go back to using the tools?

• 30:51Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, we can.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  I mean, you just make progress so much faster, right? When we're not, it's kind of like, oh, well, I tried and that didn't work. Now I was bad. Now I'm gonna go into shame spiral. And I'm either just gonna like, stop trying, right? Because it's like, see, nothing works. And I'm just gonna like, give up. I would either go into the like, okay, nothing works. Let's just like, F it. I just have permission to like, drink and eat and like, do all, all the things that I want to do. Or I would go into the place of like, okay, now we're gonna make like, this super crazy restrictive rule, because I was so bad, but like, deep down, I know I can't follow it at all.

• 31:29Mel Robbins?

  People do that on diets, nonstop.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:33Mel Robbins?

  I see such a direct parallel with eating.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:39Mel Robbins?

  I'm starting to see that if you take on a 30 day challenge like this to use the tools, and to use the tools to not drink for 30 days as a way to learn and develop the muscle of commitment and understanding yourself better. If you screw up on day two, or 12, or 28, and then you bash yourself for not having a perfect streak,

• 32:10Mel Robbins?

  the likelihood is, I would then just bail on the challenge altogether.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Except what if it wasn't a screw up? Like, what if you didn't make a mistake? I mean, like, what if the decision to say yes to the drink wasn't a mistake? It wasn't a screw up?

• 32:28Mel Robbins?

  Well, how could it not be if I am making a commitment?

• 32:32Speaker 01

  Because maybe it's trying to give you insight into something that you are missing, like a skill that you don't have, or a response that you don't have to an excuse, or something that you're, you know, like you're not aware of, like maybe you don't have the awareness, so I'm using it as a boundary.

• 32:48Mel Robbins?

  Rachel, you just keep dropping the knowledge and I just keep having epiphany after epiphany, and I know that it's one everybody's going to relate to. So I'm going to share this insight that I just had right after we return from a short break. Stay with us.

• 33:10Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's your friend Mel, and you and I are here with Rachel Hart. And I don't know about you, but I am having a lightbulb moment after a lightbulb moment. And just before the break, I had a huge insight that is another reason why I have so much conflict about alcohol. And the insight is, I hate being told what to do.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Me too.

• 33:31Mel Robbins?

  Even by myself.

• 33:35Mel Robbins?

  Even if I said I want to do this thing, I'm not going to do that thing that I said that I would do. I'll show you.

• 33:44Mel Robbins?

  Is that a normal thing that you hear with people?

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Yes, this is a huge thing. I often talk to people when they're really struggling. It's like, okay, so what is the language that you're using to say no to the drink? And they're like, well, I'm just saying that I can't have a drink. Okay, when you tell yourself you can't have a drink, how does that make you feel? Pissed off.

• 34:04Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because here's the thing, it's not even true that you can't have a drink.

• 34:10Mel Robbins?

  Explain that.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  You're like, but we said we can't. Well, I mean, we're, you're an adult woman. Of course you can drink. You're choosing to say no. There's such a big difference between like, when I tell myself I can't have something versus, okay, I'm choosing not to, and here's why.

• 34:34Mel Robbins?

  The more I listen to you, the more it's really sinking in. I'm so fixated on the gin and tonic, but this isn't about alcohol. Because the urge to numb, or escape, or join in, or relax, or turn off your work mind, or just find pleasure, that's not gonna go anywhere. You're always gonna have those feelings.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Most people come to me and they just say like, how do I get rid of it? Like, I don't want to have this desire. I don't wanna have the urge. I wish it wasn't there. And I think what we forget is that urges are part of the human experience for everything, right? It's not just like the urge to drink. I think we have the urge to eat maybe more than we want to. We have the urge to stay in bed. And so, again, instead of having this idea, spend 30 days and just like, fight against these excuses. It's like, well, what if we could learn how to talk back to them in a way that's really believable?

• 35:25Mel Robbins?

  Wow.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  Of course, the urge is here. Or even just, I mean, one of my first things really is just naming that you're having an urge. And when I introduce that to people, so I was like, what is this woman talking about? You just want me to say, oh, I'm having an urge? And I think it's incredibly powerful and beneficial because all of a sudden, we're activating our higher brain. All of a sudden, we're not just on autopilot, we're narrating what's going on. Oh, this is an urge. Of course I'm having an urge. It's 5 o'clock. My brain learned, this is what we do. We get a reward at 5 o'clock. Of course it's here.

• 36:02Mel Robbins?

  Well, when I have that urge, my first reaction is, there's something wrong with you, Mel. There's something wrong with having the urge to have a glass of wine tonight. But you're saying, don't focus on the glass of wine. Just recognize, oh, there's that urge to have one.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  If you're trying to say no, if you wanna drink less, all of a sudden, it's like, oh, God, the urge is here, and now my anxiety has just kicked on too. Because I wish it wasn't there, and I wish it would go away, and I think that it's a sign that something is wrong with me, or my brain is broken, or whatever.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  And so like, can we just name it? Can we normalize it? Like, yeah, of course, when I watch baseball, I'm having the urge for a beer because at some point, my brain learned, this is what you do when you watch baseball.

• 36:52Mel Robbins?

  What's so great about this is that it's still empowering you to understand the psychological drivers. So you understand and know yourself better. And that supports the work you're going to do if you are sober. Or if you go through all of this and where it leads you is to just a totally different relationship with alcohol that works for you. You still have to do the deeper work to understand psychological data that is driving you to try to answer the urge with a drink.

• 37:33Mel Robbins?

  That's really amazing.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  We don't just have urges when it comes to a drink. We have urges around food. We have urges around spending money. We have urges to procrastinate. Like, we're always going to have competing desires, right? We always have this part of us that has the dream and the goal. And this is what I want to do. And this is how I want to spend my time. And we have the part of us that's like scrolling through TikTok, right? And looking for that easy way to distract ourselves or feel better or stay in our comfort zone. And so that's always going on. And I like, I personally think that learning this work around my urges to drink is what kind of took my life to the next level. Because it was like, oh, okay.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Now I can apply the skill to anything that I'm doing. It's not unique to just saying no to a drink. It's something that I can apply across the board.

• 38:28Mel Robbins?

  It's an essential life skill.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Yes, and we don't teach people like this is what's so frustrating for me is we're constantly giving people messages, just say no, drink responsibly, enjoy in moderation, know when to say when. We're getting all these messages about what we should be doing and nobody gives us the how. Nobody explains how we're supposed to do it. And so I think what happens is people start to internalize, this should just be something I can naturally do. I should instinctually know how to say no, be responsible, right? Know when to say when. And if I can't figure it out, oh, something must be wrong with me. As opposed to, no, people gave you

• 39:11Speaker 01

  a bunch of messages with no tools, no techniques, no understanding about the brain. I mean, that just is, that really infuriates me.

• 39:22Mel Robbins?

  I can tell. So let's just take, for example, the second I'm done talking to you, I'm gonna leave my podcast studio, I'm gonna look out at a beautiful sunset, and I'm going to have an urge to make a margarita.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 39:40Mel Robbins?

  So when you say, name the urge, does it, is just saying, did I just do that?

• 39:46Speaker 01

  No, I'm like, when it's happening.

• 39:48Mel Robbins?

  Oh, okay. It's happening right now, because now I'm talking about it, but.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  I love the sunset piece though, because like the number of people that I have coached on, like, how am I supposed to sit on my porch anymore and like enjoy a sunset? And it's like, sunsets were enjoyable before you started drinking, right? We just, the brain started to associate, oh, I get a reward when I watch a sunset. So now when you take the reward away, it feels like something's missing from the sunset. Nothing's missing from the sunset, right?

• 40:16Mel Robbins?

  You're right. Except for the drink.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:21Mel Robbins?

  I'm making a joke out of this, but I'm not really this cavalier about it. So when I leave here and I have the urge, I just, as I'm walking downstairs, I say, oh, I'm having that urge to make a drink.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you can say it to yourself, you can say it out loud.

• 40:35Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Both of it works. The idea is really just acknowledging what's going on, like, oh, this is an urge. I'm having an urge right now. This is desire. Oh, how normal. Of course it's here. Right? This isn't a problem. This is what my brain learned. Oh, of course. This is desire. I think that's a very, very powerful thing to start to be able to narrate what your brain is doing, because all of a sudden, you're not at the effect of your brain.

• 41:04Mel Robbins?

  Right.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Part of you is watching it.

• 41:07Mel Robbins?

  That makes sense. But how do you counsel your clients about the fact that drinking is bad for your health? I mean, medically speaking, the newest recommendations that I just saw published in academic journals was absolutely no more than two drinks a week if you're gonna drink. And it is poison. I mean, we can agree on that. And yet, I'm one of those people that I know it's poison, and I still do it, which of course makes me feel like even more shitty about myself.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  I'm not denying that it can have negative consequences. But what I see happen to people, and I did this with myself as well, you start going down that rabbit hole of all the ways that it's harming you, and all the, you know, poisonous, toxic effects that it's having on your body, and you're still struggling to say no, or you're still drinking more than you want. And now you're waking up the next day, and you're like doubly stupid, because now you really should know better. So not only was it like, oh, God, why did I have that like, fourth glass, but and I know all the harm that it's doing, and I know how bad it is for me.

• 42:17Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  There's already so much shame around drinking. People are so hard on themselves. It just becomes like another layer of, see, something really is wrong with me, because now I know how bad it is. I know it's poisoning me. As opposed to like, listen, alcohol is just, it's a fact of being alive on this planet. Right? So what if instead of fixating on it's so bad, right?

• 42:43Mel Robbins?

  But it's true, Rachel. So why shouldn't we focus on how harmful it is for our health?

• 42:48Speaker 01

  I think that takes you away from this conversation that I think is more powerful. Right? What does it represent? What is my desire really about? Why is it hard for me to say no? How do I feel when? You know, I'm the odd man out, right? What are those emotions that come up for me? That is so much more powerful area, I think, to start to get curious about rather than all the bad things that it's doing.

• 43:12Mel Robbins?

  Well, I agree with you. And when I gave that example of it's dinner time, the sun is setting, I'm gonna make a cocktail. The truth is, the desire is to stop working. The desire is to exhale and stop thinking for a minute. The desire is to reward myself for a job well done. And in naming that, it also takes my focus off the drink. And it helps me get present to what I actually want. You know what's crazy is that if I start shaming myself by saying, Mel, it's poison in a wine glass.

• 43:54Mel Robbins?

  You know what happens is it just makes me want the poison in the wine glass even more. And then it makes me feel even worse. And now my internal conflict is all about how bad it is when what you're saying is, if you go that route of shaming yourself, you miss out on the way more powerful insight and breakthrough that you can have, which is noticing without judgment, oh, I have the urge to drink right now. What is that about? The workday is over? Oh, I want to turn off my brain. That makes sense. So what do I need to do right now to take care of myself?

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 44:34Mel Robbins?

  What immediately came to mind is I need a hug.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  But isn't that harder to ask for sometimes than a drink?

• 44:44Mel Robbins?

  Well, you can't order one from a waiter.

• 44:50Mel Robbins?

  It's true. And I can make myself a drink, so I don't have to ask for anything, right?

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:56Mel Robbins?

  If I go to the 14-year-old me, that red solo cup represented...

• 45:02Mel Robbins?

  A hug and being welcomed into the group.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 45:05Mel Robbins?

  And so I can see what you're saying to name when you feel that urge that is deeper than the food, or the drink, or the pair of jeans you're about to buy. And so of course you would want the thing. And of course, not giving yourself the jeans, or the ice cream sundae, or the Mai Tai feels like you're punishing yourself.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think a big thing is just watching it pass. So that's a huge thing that a lot of people struggle with. It's like, listen, if I don't say yes, it's going to be nagging me all night long.

• 45:44Mel Robbins?

  Can I confess something to you?

• 45:46Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 45:48Mel Robbins?

  Is it normal for someone to be worried that you're about to tell me not to have a drink tonight?

• 45:57Speaker 01

  That I'm about to tell you?

• 45:59Mel Robbins?

  Yes, that you're about to coach me through this process of noticing the urge, letting it rise and fall. And then at the end of this, I'm now going to have more conflict off of the urge. And then you want to know how fucked up I am? Then I'm going to feel like this is now all evidence that I have an even bigger problem. That's how much of a shame cycle I'm in around this.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Yes, this is very normal. I'm not going to tell you anything to do.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  I mean, I think that's actually a huge piece of my approach, is that I don't know what's best for you. I'm not going to tell you what to do, because you're just going to be then looking to me, or looking for someone outside of you to tell you what's right. I think you have wisdom and information inside of you, and that's not like a wink wink, you know, you shouldn't drink. I really do think that we have this ability to know what feels good for us, and what feels like too much. But we can't access that if it's constantly in this place of like, oh, God, I shouldn't even be wanting this, or I shouldn't even have this desire.

• 47:11Mel Robbins?

  I can totally see how that's true. At least it is for me.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Right? Like, I didn't think more is better just with a drink. I thought it was better with food. I thought it was better with stuff. I thought it was better with success. I thought it was better with money. I thought it was better with praise. Like, that was just kind of the overarching principle of how I was operating. And it wasn't just showing up for me in one place. And that, I think that created a lot of freedom for me because I walked around for a long time being like, I don't know, I've got like eight different problems. Like, or not. Or maybe I have, I have one thing that I'm working on, which is how to understand,

• 47:56Speaker 01

  like identify how I'm feeling and what I need and how to be okay with an unmet desire and how to fulfill it elsewhere.

• 48:03Mel Robbins?

  You're exactly right. How did you figure this out? Like, was there a particular moment? Like, did you have like a massive bender and then you're like, I can't drink again? Then you like reverse engineered this? Did you go to school for it? How did you figure this out?

• 48:15Speaker 01

  I spent my twenties going like back and forth between I'm drinking, I'm not drinking, I'm drinking, I'm not drinking. But the not drinking was always, you were bad, you should be ashamed of yourself. Now it's time to punish yourself. We're just gonna focus on saying no. And so I would say no and say no and feel like something was wrong with me. And I was missing out and I, you know, was very healthy, but wasn't enjoying myself as much. And then eventually I would give in and go pick up right back where I left off.

• 48:44Mel Robbins?

  I'm sure that's how everyone feels about drinking. And being in this back and forth, I'm on, I'm off, I'm drinking, I'm not drinking, I'm bad, I'm good. I mean, that's exactly where I am right now, which is why I wanted to talk to you and learn more about the process that you use with people.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  I was in this process, in this cycle for so long. And I had some awareness that...

• 49:08Speaker 01

  It was bigger than the drink. I felt like I wasn't able to access a part of myself without the drink. I remember believing that like the fun Rachel, the real Rachel, like she comes out with a drink. And again, there was a part of me that was like, I don't think I always needed that, right?

• 49:26Mel Robbins?

  It's so relatable. I feel like the relaxed, I'm off the clock Mel comes out with a drink. The Mel that's not racing through her day, got a million things I need to do, tons of people I need to call, people that are relying on me. I pour that drink and I'm on vacation. I'm off the clock. It's the Mel that can sit down, put her feet up, stop thinking, and just take a breath and look at the sunset for a minute.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  We have such a limited, narrow conversation, how we talk about this. It's kind of like, do I have a problem or don't I have a problem, right? Am I an alcoholic or am I a normal drinker? We're very black and white. And I think there are a lot of people that feel like they're in this kind of in-between. And being in that in-between can feel incredibly frustrating. And it's like, nobody understands my situation or what's going on for me.

• 50:14Mel Robbins?

  So, all of this makes so much sense. And now I'm, of course, leaning in and going, I want to learn more about the actual process. So when someone comes to you, Rachel, and they say, can you help me figure out what a normal relationship with alcohol would look like for me? Or even broadening it out, for those of you that aren't like, dealing with this with alcohol. Anything that you're struggling with. A normal relationship would look like for you with shopping, spending money, vaping, video games, porn, the urge to avoid things, overeating. Rachel, what is the process? And how do you start it for yourself?

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think that one of the most important things to do is really first understand your mindset. And when I say mindset, I mean, when you think about, well, what are my reasons for drinking? And what do I make it mean that I struggle to say no? Right? What do I make it mean when I struggle to follow through on my commitment? If you think about being told that you couldn't drink again, what about that would be upsetting for you? Because when you start asking these questions, it's going to reveal some of your thoughts about yourself, your ability to change, your urges, alcohol, all of that.

• 51:26Mel Robbins?

  We were at a friend's house the other night and they opened up one of those super expensive French bottles of wine where you have to like push the gray dust off of it. And I'm like, ooh, I'm not gonna miss out on that. I hadn't had a drink that night, but the second they pulled that out, it's like FOMO. This is gonna be expensive. I'm gonna try this shit. The big question that you asked at the end, which is what does, what was the big question? Because it made my heart go, oh, God.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Sorry, Mel. We're telling you, you can't drink for the rest of your life.

• 51:56Mel Robbins?

  I would feel like I'd never have fun again.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:59Mel Robbins?

  Like I'd miss out on all the celebrations.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  I mean, I was like, I'm sorry, how are we supposed to watch March Madness? Like, what, am I ever gonna have sex again? I don't understand. Like, what? They were just so, it's like, are you kidding? So am I ever gonna go to a wedding? Should I just not go to weddings anymore? I'm not gonna have sex. We're not gonna enjoy sports. Like, I guess I'm never gonna dance in public. There were just like so many things. I was like, well, you gotta be kidding me. Like, you're literally talking about a miserable life. So, yeah, no, thank you. I'll pass.

• 52:37Mel Robbins?

  So what do you do if that's everything that you think? When somebody fills all that out and they're like, okay, I'm never gonna have sex. I'm not gonna dance in public. I can't go to a sports game. My life will be no fun. All my friends who drink won't ever invite me out. I'm gonna endure awkward moment after awkward moment where everybody else urges a drink. And I'm like, could I have a seltzer, please? Can I have the mocktail menu? And I don't want to miss out on all the fun. And I don't want to do, like, when you write out your excuses, that almost makes you feel like you would retreat toward binge drinking.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it's like, oh, we're, we have nothing to look forward to, right?

• 53:12Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  So one of the things I talk about in all those situations that I listed, like, the worst thing that's going to happen is a feeling.

• 53:21Mel Robbins?

  That's true.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  But I don't think we understand it that way. Like, no, the worst thing that's going to happen is my life is going to be over.

• 53:31Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  So you start to be like, okay, so what is that feeling that comes up when I get on the dance floor, right? Totally sober. What is that feeling that I'm having when I'm sitting in the stands watching baseball and everybody has a beer and I don't, right? Like, what is that feeling? Like, to start to identify, the real issue here is not the drink. The real issue is this feeling, oh, God, if this comes up, then there's nothing to do. Right?

• 54:02Mel Robbins?

  Mm-hmm. What you're doing is you're just teaching people how to handle the feelings that come.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it starts even just with identifying what the feeling is, because that's a huge piece that I work on with people. It's like, I'm fine. I'm like, I'm fine. Okay, fine's not a feeling. Like, how are we actually feeling? So again, much like your urges, the ability to just name and notice and also not make it a problem.

• 54:33Mel Robbins?

  Can you give us an example of what that sounds like when you notice the urge and name it and not make it wrong?

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Like, I feel disappointed right now. How human of me. That's okay. We're supposed to feel disappointed sometimes. I can feel disappointed now because I'm not having the drink, or I can feel disappointed later because I didn't follow through on my commitment. But disappointments come in either way, so which one am I gonna choose?

• 55:00Mel Robbins?

  Oh, my God, I just got something.

• 55:03Mel Robbins?

  I just got something really powerful. Holy shit. Do you want to know why I always lose the battle with myself when I start a Sunday night and I say, you know, I'm not going to drink this week. I'll just wait until next weekend. And then Monday rolls around 6 o'clock, I go downstairs, it's the sunset, I feel the desire to pour a gin and tonic, because this is my boundary between work. I now understand what it is.

• 55:36Mel Robbins?

  When I start to get in conflict with myself, Rachel, "Well, you said you weren't gonna have a drink, but I feel like having a drink. What's wrong with having a drink? Well, you said you wouldn't, and that's a lack of a..." I have a drink to shut that conflict down.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:48Mel Robbins?

  I'm not having a drink because I'm addicted to alcohol. I'm having a drink because I can't tolerate being in conflict with those two competing parts of me.

• 56:02Mel Robbins?

  Holy shit. That's why the drink habit always wins, because it shuts it down.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  It's really like even less about alcohol, right? It's just like, how am I making it okay and normalizing conflict? Like, internal conflict is okay.

• 56:22Mel Robbins?

  Yeah. That's pretty cool. I think I'm gonna try the 30 days. Not today. But no, I wanna do... I'm like really interested in this, because I'm tired of the conflict.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:37Mel Robbins?

  Within me. And I think there's peace that's accessible in this. And it is very freeing for somebody like me, and I think for a large number of you listening, to go, "Oh, wait a minute. I don't have to choose between I drink all the time and I don't drink at all." I can end the internal conflict that I feel, and I can learn more about urges and desires and tolerating things, and operate from my higher brain instead of letting my lower brain control me. And I can get myself out of this cycle of shame and management and conflict and all this shit by simply trying what you're saying for 30 days of using these tools. And naming the desire and tolerating the desire and watching your excuses and going a layer deeper.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  I had a client once say, when I was working with her on her compelling reasons, I had her say, "I just wanna be the captain of my own soul." And I was like, "Yeah."

• 57:33Mel Robbins?

  I love the captain of the soul because I am somebody who is uber intentional and uber in control and have done so much work on myself. The one area where I have this friction between old and new is this conflict I feel around whether or not I'm gonna have a cocktail. And you have been so profoundly helpful because I have realized I have a major issue with a boundary between work and relaxing and turning my brain off and the desire to join in and belong with others.

• 58:18Mel Robbins?

  And they're all tied up with alcohol for some dumb reason. I've been focused on the alcohol, not the much richer and deeper opportunity of knowing myself. So, thank you.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

• 58:36Mel Robbins?

  Of course. And thank you for being here. Thank you so much. I could feel your arm around me as we were having this conversation and now I want to put my arm around you. I want to make sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life for yourself, however you define that, whatever that means for you. And what that means for me is, I am gonna try this 30-day thing. So, thank you for being here and helping me find the courage to take a look at this because it's a hell of a lot easier to face your stuff and change together. All right, I'll talk to you in a few days.

• 59:18Mel Robbins?

  Okay, squeeze into this. Oh, wow. Wow, this is like Tool City, man. Tool City. Okay. Oh, shit. Um, Jesus, my kids always call while we're having a podcast. Goodbye. Okay. Mama's ought to talk about drink. That's a boundary, okay? I'm still on the clock.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Excuse me. Let me take a sip.

• 59:47Mel Robbins?

  So, is that straight vodka in the thing that you just had a drink?

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, this is, yeah.

• 59:58Mel Robbins?

  Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.