Maggie Q Is A Badass

Actress. Athlete. Activist. Entrepreneur. Fashion designer. Environmentalist & Plant-based icon. Maggie Q is the hero we all need. If you’re a fan of Mission Impossible, the Divergent films, Nikita, Live Free or Die Hard, Designated Survivor, and a slew of other films, then you’re already well-acquainted with this Hawaii native’s kick-ass, action screen presence. What you might not know is that she cut her thespian teeth in Hong Kong under the tutelage of martial arts master Jackie Chan. To this day, she’s known for performing all her own stunts. Off-screen Maggie is a passionate plant-based, animal rights activist and environmental activist. She’s a board member of Social Compassion in Legislation, a policy advocacy group fighting for animal welfare protection laws in California, such as the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics Act. And her work has been recognized and awarded by the City of Los Angeles, the State Senate of California, the California Assembly, PETA, Wild Aid, and many more organizations. In addition, Maggie is the creator of QEEP UP, an apparel brand made from entirely recycled and pre-consumer waste materials, and ActivatedYou a nutrition company and wellness resource that combines her passion for health with the expertise of podcast alum Dr. Frank Lipman (RRP #370), a renowned integrative medicine doctor. The question isn’t what can Maggie do — it’s what can’t she. Today, we walk through Maggie’s unique upbringing. We dissect her crazy career arc. Her work as an activist. And her passion for animals, human rights, and the ocean. She shares some epic Hollywood stories, including an epic, previously untold Tom Cruise yarn that gave me chills. We also discuss the importance of finding your cause. Fighting for it. And supporting others along their respective journeys. But more than anything, the lesson Maggie imparts today is the power of holding space for others—and why forgiveness is paramount to personal freedom. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll596 YouTube: bit.ly/maggieq596 Maggie is someone who is committed to self-growth and someone who knows a thing or two about catalyzing internal and external change. Wise and funny, she’s an excellent conversationalist. She brought her German Shepard, Romeo. By the end, our conversation turned into a therapy session. And for reasons you will soon discover, everyone here at the studio basically fell in love with her. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  I get to Hong Kong. At the time, Jackie Chan had a management company where he was sort of looking for the next generation of action stars. Like, that's what he was doing. And he knew that his name and his, you know, all the things would be a great headline to what he was doing. And he was, you know, kind of training all these young boys. And like, I was like the girl, and they took me on, and they trained me, his team trained me, and I became this sort of like, action star. And I was a runner, okay? So you have to understand, like, people who aren't runners, like, we're not a flexible people. Like, I couldn't touch my toes at the time. You know, and they're sort of looking at me going, "Uh, you look strong, and we think you are strong, and we think we can make you into something, but geez, like, this is gonna take a while." Right?

• 1:50Speaker 01

  And they're specialists in every discipline. So he's got like the Kung-Fu guy, the Taekwondo guy, the karate guy, like, everybody is specialized. And so, they sort of take you on, and they, they break you. And at least being with Jackie, I had some sort of protection against, or I think it was a protection, against a lot of, you know, that studio mafioso type of stuff that they do, you know, in all parts of the world, but over there especially. You know, it's sort of like, I was his girl in that. I was like someone he was bringing up, that he was raising in the business, so... I wasn't to be messed with too much. You know what I mean? Like, there was a sort of a blanket of protection a little bit. So that helped me. I'm Maggie Q. and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:42Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. What's happening? What's the word? This is Rich Roll. So, good news is if you are looking for my podcast, you found it. My guest today is Maggie Q. Maggie is an actress. You've seen her. You know her from movies like Mission Impossible 3, Live Free or Die Hard, the Divergent movies, the television show Designated Survivor, all kinds of cool stuff. She's also a plant-based animal rights activist, an environmentalist, an ocean preservation advocate, a fashion designer, an entrepreneur, and basically just an overall super badass, cool, human being. This is an awesome talk.

• 3:27Rich Roll?

  We definitely vibed, and it's all coming up quick. But first...

• 3:39Rich Roll?

  So Maggie Q. Maggie's got an incredible story. We talked about her unique upbringing in Hawaii, her crazy career arc, her work as an activist, her passion for animals, human rights, the ocean. She's an awesome talker. She's wise, she's fun. She brought her German shepherd Romeo, who was great. And by the end, it turned into kind of a therapy session, which was cool in its own, unique way. And for reasons I think you'll soon discover, everybody here at the studio basically just fell in love with her. Plus, she dropped some epic Tom Cruise stories, including one she's never before shared that gave me chills.

• 4:25Rich Roll?

  And I think you're gonna enjoy it. So here is me and Maggie Q. doing the thing.

• 4:35Rich Roll?

  It's super nice to meet you. I'm surprised that we haven't met before.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 4:39Rich Roll?

  We have so many friends in common.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  We do.

• 4:41Rich Roll?

  From the whole vegan community, animal rights community.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  And also, you were just really the first that I was aware of that was doing what you were doing on that level. And it was such a pioneering move. And so, yeah, I'm really surprised.

• 4:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I think we've probably been at some of the same

• 4:59Speaker 01

  Probably, yeah.

• 5:00Rich Roll?

  sort of benefit

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, all the fundraisers.

• 5:02Rich Roll?

  situations.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  I'm so boring that that's me going out, going to a fundraiser.

• 5:07Rich Roll?

  I'm just intimidated by everyone. I sit in the back and I leave early.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  I try to sit in the back and leave early, but they always want me to present something.

• 5:14Rich Roll?

  But you've been in it. You've been in it much longer than I have. It's been like 20 years or something like that at this point, right?

• 5:19Speaker 01

  It really has, yeah.

• 5:21Rich Roll?

  I remember you were part of Earthlings. We're both friends with Sean.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 5:26Rich Roll?

  I remember when that movie came out, and I was pretty new to the whole thing.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Really?

• 5:30Rich Roll?

  And I was at some, I think it was in Woodland Hills or like at Pierce College, there was some janky veg fest that no one went to.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 5:40Rich Roll?

  Whatever. There's like 10 people there. And Sean was like selling DVDs out of the back of his car.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Oh, of course he was.

• 5:47Rich Roll?

  And that was when I was like, tell me what this is.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  With the soft sleeves. Yeah, of course. We didn't have hard cases.

• 5:50Rich Roll?

  And we watched it, you know, and that movie's gone on to become quite a phenomenon.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, before its time, you know, as we were talking about earlier, I think that it was really tough for people to take. And now with the internet, you know, there are images and videos and things you can access all the time now. But at that time, I just think, I don't know. I always said to Sean, it's not that I think that people don't care. I think they don't know. And I think once they know, it's hard to not care.

• 6:15Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  And that was the point of that documentary.

• 6:16Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, cognitive bias still kicks in. I mean, that movie is Earthlings, when it's sort of like, oh, and you gotta like turn away because it's so intense, you know?

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 6:28Rich Roll?

  But then you're like, you turn back and then you have to turn away again.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah.

• 6:30Rich Roll?

  But you can't forget it.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  No.

• 6:32Rich Roll?

  And it stood the test of time. And it's still like kind of the touchdown film for, you know,

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:38Rich Roll?

  introducing people to just how dark and gnarly the whole

• 6:42Speaker 01

  And you're so right. It is so dark and gnarly. And when witnessing Sean as a director, producer, writer, you know, sort of sit You know, in a garage, essentially in a garage, you know, for months on months and months on end, you know, with 400 hours of of factory farm footage and going, no, that moment, like that cow, that that act of cruelty, that's going to matter to someone, right? Because it's all it's all awful. But I think one of the things that people don't realize is that these filmmakers and the people who are actually making the sacrifice to face this head on and full on, they're really brave people. They're people that

• 7:22Speaker 01

  are incredibly special and they are able to face things in a way where even for myself, I mean, I have pretty thick skin when it comes to certain things. And I think as I've gotten older, I'm less and less capable of witnessing any of this stuff, you know, and back in the day, I was a little more capable. Someone like Sean, who's such a gentle soul, he can sit there and watch all that cruelty for hours and hours, hours, and pick out that moment that's going to affect someone and change their life. And that takes requires a very, very special person.

• 7:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it is a unique type of individual that, you know, has that kind of sensitivity, you know, out of the womb, basically. I mean, like, the animal thing for you was from the get go, right?

• 8:03Speaker 01

  It really was.

• 8:04Rich Roll?

  Right? So there's something, I have this theory. I remember talking to Gene Bauer about this, like, I just think, I just think that Gene, like, people like Gene come out different. And they have, they're like, super sensitive to the way the world operates. And it leads them down this certain path. But not everyone's wired that way. Because like, I came in, you know, I've been vegan, plant based for 14 years now. But, you know, animal rights wasn't my entry point. Like, that's become really important to me.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  It was health.

• 8:34Rich Roll?

  But that wasn't initially. Yeah, it was more of a health thing.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 8:36Rich Roll?

  And it was like a vanity thing, if I'm being honest. There was a selfishness to it.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 8:40Rich Roll?

  That, you know, now, you know, I've become much more attuned and sensitive and passionate about the other things. But I'm not wired that way, the way like you are, or Gene, or Sean, or, you know, Joaquin, or these other people that just, you know, carry that sensitivity, which probably makes their life experience very painful.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  It is. Well, an empath's path is, it is really painful. I mean, you nailed it. It's exactly it, right? Because you sort of like, you can't shut off that feeling. And I remember, like, being a kid and

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Sort of witnessing just cruelty in general, whether it was to another adult, or a child, or an animal. And I remember thinking, I remember feeling a lot of pain over that. And it didn't have to be my own pain. I hated seeing people in pain, a life in pain. Let's put it that way, because the animals included, obviously, were a big thing. But I did witness a lot of that cruelty as a kid. And I remember when it came to the animals, it was especially unfair. Because they just, they had no choice, right? They couldn't get away, they couldn't call for help. There's no 911, you know, for a dog that's getting beaten up, or tied outside, or, you know, hurt in any way. Or a cat, or whatever it is. Like, they don't have the resource, you know, to do that.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  And so, it does take us, you know? It does take an outside source to say, I don't think that's right. That doesn't seem right to me, you know?

• 10:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You got to, so Earthlings was like 2005, right?

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:13Rich Roll?

  So you couldn't have been back from Hong Kong very long before that took place? Like, how did that come together?

• 10:19Speaker 01

  You know, Sean pioneered, obviously, everything. You know, Sean was already on it, collecting footage, doing everything he was doing. And, you know, when I got back, when I moved back from Asia to the States, it was, it was like, I was changed by, actually, by PETA. You know, PETA was the group, you know? And as you know, PETA's not a shy group, so.

• 10:40Rich Roll?

  No, yeah, not quite.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  No, not quite, I wouldn't use that word. But PETA, as it were, was opening an Asian office at the time. And so, I didn't even know they had a presence in Asia. I mean, PETA's, they're very famous, right? So you know about what they do at New York Fashion Week, and all this sort of stuff, and it's all very sensationalized, and kind of like, you know, this sort of fun thing, cultural thing that people make fun of. But. In Asia, there really was no representation for the animals. I mean, at that time, it was sort of like Animals Asia, who's still in business and they've been around for about 30 years. But other than them, like these bigger, more organized groups like hadn't come in. So they come in to open this office and that's what changed me. So I was already changed when I was living in Asia because I was sort of like this self-professed animal lover,

• 11:27Speaker 01

  but was still doing all the things, you know, that were cruel and unacceptable. And so that's why, as we were talking earlier, it's very easy to like meet people where they are and have compassion for people who don't get it because I was that person. I can't, you know what I mean? I wasn't born conscious. I wasn't, I was born empathic. I was born sensitive, but I wasn't born like understanding it from a larger perspective and going, oh, okay, well, my action has a chain reaction and this is what's happening in that chain. So I was changed already. And then when I came over and met Sean, it was just like that perfect timing of like, I was just new and kind of ripe in this. I'd come from a region where animal rights and cruelty and the voice of animals is non-existent.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  And so I was really on fire too, to like get this message out. And I think that the easiest, if you can call it that, the easiest region in the world to do that is the West, if you're going to start with anywhere.

• 12:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I can't imagine the temperature in Asia around animal rights is anything remotely similar to what it is here.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Not even. I mean, the spotlight, the discussion, I mean, they're still coming to it and we're getting there, you know, because of this younger generation. I mean, I think we're getting there because of what we were talking about earlier, about kids changing their parents and kids having a different kind of compassion than their parents did. But, you know, I'm the daughter of an immigrant mother. You know, my mother like, you know, fled from a war-torn country and came to the United States. And like her MO was not like, oh, how are the dogs feeling? You know? You know, I've got to save some cats.

• 13:05Rich Roll?

  What my daughter has to say about, you know, the world.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Exactly. You know, I remember once complaining about like the toothpaste or something. It was too minty, too strong. It was like some cheap toothpaste and obviously everything we bought was on sale. We didn't, I didn't grow up with money and I complained about toothpaste. And she was just like, oh, really? Oh, really? The toothpaste that we can afford is not good enough for you? And that toothpaste went away fast. She was like, you know what? You can get a job by your own toothpaste. So it was very.

• 13:32Rich Roll?

  So, your mom's Vietnamese and your dad was deployed to Vietnam?

• 13:37Speaker 01

  That's right, yeah. Yeah, they met the war.

• 13:39Rich Roll?

  So they met there, wow. But you were born in Hawaii?

• 13:41Speaker 01

  I was born in Hawaii. I have a brother and sister who were born there and then they were married, came here and then they had three more kids, of which I'm the youngest of five.

• 13:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:51Rich Roll?

  Right, so grew up in Oahu?

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Born and raised, yep.

• 13:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Hawaii girl.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  A Hawaii girl, yeah.

• 13:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, what was that like?

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I mean, it's... Your connection to nature is... And your upbringing is sort of one and the same, right? So there's no separation between you and like, respect for, you know, all that we have in Hawaii. And you lived in Hawaii, so you understand this, right? It's sort of like, we don't litter, we don't do this, we don't do that. I mean, we don't harm the environment, or we try to. I mean, there are people, there are always people who do what they do. But we really do sort of live this profound connection to the world around us. And that's a very island mentality. And so I think that's what gave me my connection to the oceans in a very real way.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  It was like, I remember just having this respect for the ocean that was so different than people that I'd met, you know, who grew up on the mainland and whatnot. Because that was a world that was undiscovered, that we really know very little about, to be honest. I mean, we know a lot and we know nothing about the ocean. And yet, somehow, we feel that the ocean is at our disposal. And I remember as a kid thinking, no, no, this, the respect that I had for it was almost like, almost like a fear that you have for someone you respect. You know, like a superior. I kind of felt like the ocean was my superior. And I had this like, you know, this respect that came from a place of like, almost fear. Because it's such an unknown, and yet, it provides so much for us.

• 15:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  We take and we don't know much.

• 15:28Rich Roll?

  There is a weird energy in Hawaii, like you can feel it. There's a darkness, there's a lightness, there's a heaviness. Like, I find myself, I was there in January for a month on the Big Island. And I definitely-

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Oh, I was there all of December.

• 15:41Rich Roll?

  Oh, were you?

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Funny, yeah.

• 15:42Rich Roll?

  On the Big Island?

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:43Rich Roll?

  Oh, you were?

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:44Rich Roll?

  Cool, I love it there.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  In Kona.

• 15:46Rich Roll?

  You definitely have this, there's a sense of reverence, but also like, like, oh, like, I'm very conscious of making sure that I put away my garbage in the right way.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  100%.

• 15:57Rich Roll?

  And that I don't like move any of the rocks. And it's like, I don't want to like upset, you know, Madame Pele.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  The balance.

• 16:02Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 16:04Rich Roll?

  Because that whiplash comes quick-

• 16:05Speaker 01

  You don't want her to blow, yeah, it does.

• 16:06Rich Roll?

  You know, on the island. And I noticed that living in Kauai, I was, I had Laird Hamilton here not too long ago, and we were talking about that, like, like, you can feel, you know, there's like karma comes faster in Hawaii, I feel like, you know?

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Isn't that funny?

• 16:20Rich Roll?

  I don't know what that is, but there is a sensibility around that there.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Well, it's a very, it's a deeply spiritual place, you know, number one. And anytime you're, you have a connection or a closeness to native culture, you're gonna feel that. I mean, I even feel it like when I'm on native land, like in Arizona or in different places in the US. Like, there's just a different spiritual penetration and awareness in, in, in, in everything you do. And so there's a checks and balance, it's different. It's almost like if you felt that angels or guides or something were closer to you, and if you felt that they were watching you-

• 16:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there is that sense of being watched.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Right? Yes, absolutely.

• 16:56Rich Roll?

  And there's also-

• 16:57Speaker 01

  It's ancestral, it really is.

• 16:59Rich Roll?

  Me being like a white dude, like, it's very different. I've spent enough time in Hawaii, like, I know what it's like to be in Hawaii, not at the resort, you know, like, to be in-

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:08Rich Roll?

  Where, you know, people have been living for generations.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Right, real people live.

• 17:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, native inhabitants and stuff like that. And so there's also, you know, a palpable sense of, like, you're a visitor here, like, this is not your place.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Oh, we make people feel like that, though.

• 17:23Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah. I mean, yeah, yes, for sure, right? Like, oh, you better tread lightly, dude.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Right, correct.

• 17:29Rich Roll?

  Or you're gonna get into trouble, and it's gonna, it's gonna go south quick on you.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, Hawaii's the only place I know of where, like, white is not might, you know? I mean, the rest of the United States, and, I mean, I, the first time I experienced, like- Somebody that was like, you know, kind of treated me differently was like when I lived in Japan and it was like a bunch of white girls from Texas and they thought I was Mexican. Which, and if I was, what's the problem with that? And so they sort of, they wouldn't talk to me and it was this very strange thing of like, I just never experienced that because in Hawaii, as you know, I mean, everyone's mixed race and there's really no, and if you're, you know, if you're white, you have to tread lightly and if you're not, you know, it's a different existence.

• 18:08Rich Roll?

  Well, and Oahu is different because it's so cosmopolitan comparatively to the rest of the islands and it's very much like a Japanese culture.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  100% it is, yeah, yeah.

• 18:16Rich Roll?

  So you end up going, you have a very like unique and interesting path, like at 17 you end up going to Tokyo to model, right, originally?

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Funny enough that you say that because when people ask me about that, I go, you know, it wasn't really that much different culturally from growing up in Hawaii, like all my, I would say 95% of my teachers growing up were Japanese.

• 18:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  You know, so I'm just used to that sensibility, the food, the whole thing, but, but obviously I was in a huge city, fast, expensive city that was very foreign to me.

• 18:44Rich Roll?

  How did that, how did that happen?

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Well, I was just a broke student. I mean, I was an athlete. So I was a, I, my season was cross-country and then swimming and then track and field and then, you know, water polo here and there. And so that was my year. And I ended up sort of like, we were all swimmers, my sisters and I, one of them was a diver, but I think that it was decided for us and then as I became an athlete and really got into it, my body and my skill dictated that I was actually a runner.

• 19:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  And that really was what I excelled at. And then, and then it was distance running and started to get honed in and honed in. And so that's what I got my scholarship for, was cross-country. And I just, I just, I couldn't do it. I was already living on my own. I was paying rent. I was working retail. I was trying to keep a scholarship. To a private Catholic university that was

• 19:38Rich Roll?

  Onahuahua.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Onahuahua. That was expensive, you know, and it wasn't a full scholarship. It was, you know, seventy percent, something like that. So there was just really no way I was gonna make those ends meet. Because, you know, as you know, as a college athlete, you're training in the morning before school. You're training after school. And then I had to have a job and all the rest of it. And it was completely unsustainable, you know. And at the time, you know, I mean, I guess if you had like that support or whatever it was and you didn't have to work, you could make it work. But I wasn't in that position. Yeah. So that's kind of how it happened. I had a girlfriend, beautiful friend, who said, "You know, I go to Tokyo in the summers and I make a bunch of money and come back." And I'm like, "Wow, that sounds amazing."

• 20:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, right.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  But she was a legitimate model. So yeah, of course you go to Tokyo and make money because you have a career and experience and you're an actual model. But she was such a good friend and we're still friends today. And she just, I think she felt really sorry for me. I think she was just sort of like, "I don't know how this chick is gonna make it. I don't know how she's gonna sustain this lifestyle." And she got me a contract to go with her and I went with her. And it was, you know, it was modeling in the nineties. It was indentured servitude.

• 20:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I've heard stories, terrible stories about how, yeah, the indentured aspect of it is not good. Like most of, all the money is going towards, they're overcharging for all these things and all the money that you make goes towards...

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, they'll charge you like five thousand dollars US in the nineties for one room in an apartment where there's three other rooms. And you're like, "This seems like a lot."

• 21:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, is it still that way? It sounds horrible.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  I think it is still that way on some levels, especially like overseas. But it's just sort of like, even just the mental aspect of like, we had this agency that was just awful. And you'd walk in and there was a whiteboard right next to the door where they weighed you every Friday. And they would put your names up and like you had all the categories. And so you could walk and you could see everyone's weight. So if somebody was gaining weight, you know, immediately you'd go, "Oh, so and so is a few pounds heavier," you know. But that's what, it was intended to shame you, you know. And the only reason that I, I was like the benchmark. They were like, "Oh, Maggie," so everybody's gonna be like Maggie because she stays skinny. I'm like, "That's because I can't afford food."

• 21:49Rich Roll?

  That's crazy. So you're working and booking stuff and you still can't feed yourself?

• 21:53Speaker 01

  I wasn't booking stuff because I wasn't my, I sort of booked like one commercial at the end of my long stay there and it was a big one and that's how I paid them back.

• 22:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  But if I didn't get that, I wouldn't have been able to leave because they wouldn't have been paid back yet.

• 22:08Rich Roll?

  So your friend who, you know, so kindly introduces you to this world, didn't tell you this part of it.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  She didn't.

• 22:14Rich Roll?

  The dark underbelly?

• 22:16Speaker 01

  The dark underbelly, but she also.

• 22:17Rich Roll?

  You can come to Tokyo, but we're gonna live in a basement and, you know, eat, you know.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Eat chef R D. Yeah, pretty much. But she, she has always lived a sort of charmed life. So she, I think her experience was, she always worked and, you know, always kind of like was able to pay the bills and she was popular and very beautiful and people loved her. And so, you know, I think her, her view on it was her experience. And so it was quite good, you know?

• 22:43Rich Roll?

  And did you, was this like a summer thing or did you stop out of college?

• 22:46Speaker 01

  It's like a summer thing. Yeah. And then it sort of like led into the fall a little bit. I, I went back to start school and I had made enough money to like pay them back, as I said, but I didn't make enough money to like, you know, you know, make my ends meet back where I was. And so, um, so she says, well, you know, next up Taipei. And I'm like, what? No, I hate traveling. I hate being in these places where I don't speak the language and I don't know anyone. This is so impossible. And she's like, no, no, no, Maggie, you'll, you'll, they'll like you there. Like, you know, it won't be like Tokyo where they didn't like you, you know?

• 23:22Rich Roll?

  And, um. Because in Tokyo, what, they wanted the, the blond haired, blue eyed?

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Well, no, what happens in the summer is that there's this influx of like Eastern European, you know, like Russian, like every girl and their mother, I mean that literally, they bring their mothers, comes to Tokyo and there's like this influx of like four to 5,000 girls that will come during the summer. So there's, there's just a lot of, it's very competitive, you know? So, um, but we were a handful of mixed girls. So if they wanted mixed race girls, they, they knew where we were.

• 23:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  But the rest were like, you know, pretty white girls. So, um, a lot of competition and that was the big deal. So I went to Taiwan and when I, when I got to Taiwan, that was actually when this trend of like blonde hair and blue eye, that's all they wanted. So I'd walk into a room and they were like, get out. Like, we don't even want to see you. So it was like, you're either famous and Chinese, or you were blonde with blue eyes.

• 24:10Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  And so that rejection and that part of my life where I went there and nobody wanted to see me and I didn't work, became a very, a very lucky actually strike for me because it pushed me to Hong Kong.

• 24:26Rich Roll?

  Right. So how long were you in Taipei for then?

• 24:28Speaker 01

  I was probably there for like a few months and it was just, just bad. It was just sad.

• 24:34Rich Roll?

  And then you didn't speak Cantonese?

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Uh, in Taipei it was Mandarin.

• 24:39Rich Roll?

  Mandarin.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  So, and I, you know, I'm not Chinese, so I didn't speak a word. I had no clue what was going on. I had no friends. I had no, I mean, I was so lost.

• 24:46Rich Roll?

  Right. So this is not going well.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  This is not going well.

• 24:49Rich Roll?

  You're like, strike two. Like, why don't you just go back to Hawaii? What, you're like, I'm gonna go to Hong Kong now?

• 24:54Speaker 01

  I know. Well, funnily enough, she, um, she, my friend was pissed off, same friend. You know, she went to her agency and she said, "I don't understand why Maggie's getting rejected on this level. Like, what's happening?" And she said to her, she said, "Well, I'll tell you, do you want to hear the truth?" And she was like, "Yeah, I want to help her." She said, "The problem with Maggie is she's not cute, which is one thing we like in this market, and she's not beautiful. And that's another thing we like in this market." They were like, "She's, she's neither." And so she falls between the cracks. And my friend was like, "Oh my God, how awful." And I ended up, you know.

• 25:32Rich Roll?

  That's such a terrible thing to say.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And she told me and I was like, "I don't think I'm those things either. I hate this industry. It's so terrible." Like, it drives girls to the brink of insanity. I don't want to do this. I just want to go to school and like be an athlete and like, that's what I wanted to do, but I just didn't have the money to do it. So, um, I was like, they're not telling me, so I'm not heartbroken. I don't want to be a model. It sucks. This is awful. Like, you know, I wouldn't recommend it. I know you have two daughters. I don't recommend it.

• 26:03Rich Roll?

  Nonetheless, next stop, Hong Kong.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Unless next stop, Hong Kong. But funnily enough, like, I get to Hong Kong and I sort of like did, I mean, I use the word modeling very loosely. I mean, I did commercial work, things like that. And then within that year, I, at the time Jackie Chan had a management company where he was sort of looking for the next generation of action stars, like that's what he was doing. And he knew that his name and his, you know, all the things would be a great sort of headline to what he was doing. And he was, you know, kind of training all these young boys. And like, I was like the girl and they took me on and they trained me, his team trained me and I became this sort of like action.

• 26:45Rich Roll?

  Right. So you just, you just blew up in Asia. And it's hard to imagine how big Jackie Chan was in Asia at that time, probably still, right?

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. And in America, you know, cause like he had already hit here and he was huge. So he'd become this global superstar. And then in his own, in his backyard, he wanted to create another business. And the business was training these young people and creating the new generation of action stars.

• 27:11Rich Roll?

  And then just becoming more of a producer.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  And becoming more of a producer in that respect and still starring in what he was doing, but not necessarily, you know, we were starring in these smaller movies and he was still doing his big stuff.

• 27:22Rich Roll?

  So you kind of go to like, action movie star university, right? Like you gotta train in martial arts and become this, you know, badass warrior for the screen.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  It really, and I was a runner, okay? So you have to understand, like, people who aren't runners, like, we're not a flexible people. Like, I couldn't touch my toes at the time, you know? And they're sort of looking at me going, huh, you look strong and we think you are strong and we think we can make you into something, but geez, like, this is gonna take a while.

• 27:50Rich Roll?

  So what was that process like? Like, what do they have you doing?

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Well, Jackie has a team of like 10, anywhere from like 10 to 15 people who are with him at all times. And this is his team of like martial artists, right?

• 28:03Rich Roll?

  Those are the same people that fight with him in all the movies, right?

• 28:06Speaker 01

  So like, when I watch Jackie's movies, I know every single person he's fighting. Cause I know them all, right?

• 28:11Rich Roll?

  Right, it's the same dudes.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Right. And what people don't understand is like, you can't just throw someone in to fight with Jackie Chan. He's too good, right? So you have to know him and be able to fight. So basically, like, his team moves with him and every movie he's in, if there's a villain, like, they have to plug in his guys. The only people who can fight him.

• 28:28Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:29Rich Roll?

  So what is the tradition, like the martial arts tradition that they indoctrinate?

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Those are the guys that train you, like his team, right? And they're specialists in every discipline. So he's got like the Kung Fu guy, the Taekwondo guy, the karate guy. Like, everybody is specialized. And so they sort of take you on and they break you. I mean, they break, I don't know.

• 28:51Rich Roll?

  But what's the pitch? They're like, Maggie, okay, here's the upside opportunity. You're gonna be in all these movies.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  Oh, that conversation never happens.

• 28:59Rich Roll?

  So what is it?

• 29:00Speaker 01

  So that's a very Western thing that you're... So everything you're saying makes sense in a logical world. And then you're in Asia, and nothing makes sense. So they don't give you any foresight about like where you're gonna head or what's gonna happen. It's basically like, here, let's break you first, see how good you are. And if you're actually good, then we'll see where it goes, kind of thing, right?

• 29:24Rich Roll?

  And are they paying you and supporting you in the meantime?

• 29:26Speaker 01

  No.

• 29:27Rich Roll?

  How are you feeding yourself?

• 29:28Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I was feeding myself through like commercials and things like that.

• 29:32Rich Roll?

  So you got an agent or, I mean, how does it work? Like, what is the, what's the parallel or the disconnect between like the Hong Kong version of Hollywood and like Hollywood, Hollywood?

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Well, there's no unions, there's no agents, there's no publicists, none of that. None of what exists here is there. I mean, you have a manager and that person handles absolutely everything you do.

• 29:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  They're like your life, basically. But they don't specialize in all those things. So, you know, there's no protections. I mean, there was a time I was on set for like 30 hours. And there was no, nobody said, okay, we should probably go back and sleep now, you know? And there was no one to call. There's no like union hotline where it's like, hey, I'm being treated badly.

• 30:12Rich Roll?

  Martial arts and death-defying stunts.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Right, and tired out of your mind, like really, truly is like a form of torture. Where you're like, the level of physicality is so high and yet you're just under-resourced in every way. You're tired, you're not getting the right food, you're not, I mean, the whole thing.

• 30:27Rich Roll?

  So it's sort of like the early days of Hollywood where the actor was sort of employed by the studio system.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say that.

• 30:33Rich Roll?

  You go here and you're getting your pittance of a wage.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  100%. I would say that, yes. And at least being with Jackie, I had some sort of protection against... Or I think it was a protection against a lot of, you know, that studio, you know, mafioso type of stuff that they do, you know, in all parts of the world, but over there especially. You know, it's sort of like, I was, I was his girl in that I was like someone he was bringing up, that he was raising in the business. So I wasn't to be messed with too much. You know what I mean? Like, there was a sort of a blanket of protection a little bit. So that helped me a lot.

• 31:08Rich Roll?

  Right, right. So you survive all this and you end up getting, I mean, you are under his wing, right? So this like blows you up into this massive star in Asia.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:19Rich Roll?

  I was listening to the podcast that you did with Justin Long.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:22Rich Roll?

  And he was like, just expressing like how amazing it was to like discover like what a big deal you are.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  We went to, because we did Die Hard together, right? So we go to like, you know, they sent us to different places and stuff. And so I go to, you know, we're doing this junket and Bruce was somewhere and then, and then Justin and I were somewhere else. And we walked, I think we were in Singapore and they had like hubbed Singapore as like all the Asian press had to come down there because we didn't have a ton of time, right? We had a premiere in Tokyo and then we went straight down to Singapore and then we had to go to the world premiere in Berlin. But we're in Singapore and I remember like we walked through this place and he looks around and he's like, holy crap, all the posters are you.

• 32:02Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Like, you know how you see the Die Hard poster and it's like Bruce, you know, with like the, you know, the small eye, you know, sort of thing that he does, the winkie winkie. And they were me and he was like, oh my God, like what's happening? Like, how come he's not up here? I'm like, I don't know. He's like, is he not big here? I'm like, he's huge here. And they're like, but he just couldn't, he couldn't wrap his head around it.

• 32:23Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  He thought it was the funniest.

• 32:25Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah. And is it like, I'm trying to wrap my head around, you know, that experience being in Hong Kong, like. Is there the same, you know, there's a premiere and there's a red carpet and there's paparazzi and there's magazines and like, how does that whole like kind of infrastructure around the film industry operate to like create stars and all of that?

• 32:47Speaker 01

  It's very unruly, I have to say. Like, there was a, there was a period of like, two years before I actually left Hong Kong and got my first film here in the US, I, I didn't want to be in this industry anymore. It wasn't, to me, it wasn't something that was worth it because the paparazzi issue was so bad and the invasiveness was so, it was, it was so awful, like to the point where, I mean, for me, like, I'm, I'm a woman who looks a certain way and so in that region, you get targeted for different things, right? So, I had been having trouble, you know, in the media because I had a relationship that ended and they were like, "Oh, it must be her fault. She must be evil. She must be the, all this sort of stuff." So like, "Don't go out, please, don't go out. Just

• 33:32Speaker 01

  stay home and let this blow over." I'm like, "Ah, whatever." So I'm at home and I have a friend call me and he says, "Hey, you know, we're out on the water today. It's so beautiful. You gotta come out of there." I was instructed not to leave my house. I'm not allowed to leave my house. My friend said, "Maggie, we're on the boat in the middle of nowhere. Like, you know, please come out. Like, I mean, please, you're stressed. Like, just come. Like, it's just us and we're just gonna hang out." So I, you know, I sneak in a taxi and literally I had to call the taxi into the parking garage. I laid down in the backseat because they're just sitting outside of my...

• 34:00Rich Roll?

  Oh my god.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  So I get to the thing, I evade them. I get into this little dinghy. I get to this boat. I see my, a couple of friends of mine that I know. I'm so happy. It's sunny. I'm like, "Oh, this is so great." And then, four days later, I'm walking by a newsstand and there's this magazine and it says in Chinese, "Maggie doesn't get out of bed for less than 200 million." I'm like, "What in God's name?" And then there's a picture of the boat and there's these telephoto lenses.

• 34:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  And they, they caught me on the spot. I don't know whose, I don't know whose boat it was. A Western friend of mine from Boston.

• 34:33Rich Roll?

  Fancy boat.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, some, I guess the person who owned it, I didn't even know who he was and I guess I had passed him on the deck. I never met him in my life.

• 34:42Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Passed him on the deck, go say hi to my friends and they got that photo of us passing each other and then it was just this three months.

• 34:49Rich Roll?

  So basically saying you're in a relationship with this person.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh no, 100% or that I was, or that I'm some kind of high-class hooker that, you know, sort of like is in this relationship. And I'm like, really? I take taxies everywhere. I mean, you know, what, what, what lifestyle is it that you're trying to prove I live?

• 35:04Rich Roll?

  That's intense. So this is what, like, early 2000s?

• 35:08Speaker 01

  It's early 2000s and I just, I just, it was so gross that I was just like, I don't, this is not worth it to me. It's not, I mean, I don't, I don't typically ever seek attention anyway. I'm really not that person, like even here. I mean, I do my work and I go home. I really am like that boring.

• 35:24Rich Roll?

  Was that, was that a big part of the impetus to leave and come back to the States?

• 35:29Speaker 01

  I kind of knew that somewhere I was, I was heading back this way because I couldn't take it anymore anyway. And, but I was in a complicated situation because I, I got Mission Impossible and I was going back to the States in 2005, but my best friend was dying at the time. She was very ill and she was living there. And so I just sort of had this thing where I got this break, but then the person I loved the most in this world was not well. I had been taking care of her already for two years and now I had to go into this movie. And she was always this like uber-wise, kind of sagey human being and I got the film and

• 36:12Speaker 01

  I had to say goodbye to her to go to this movie, but I was like, I'm only going to be gone X amount of months and then I'm going to be back. Be back and I'm going to take care of you and I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving you. And, and she looked at me and she was like, you're not coming back. And I was like, no, no, no. What? Of course I'm coming back. And she's like, Maggie, you don't belong here. I don't want you back. You belong over there. You need to be doing the things that you're meant to be doing and it's not here. And it was a weird thing when she said that because it, it hit me and it scared me that, that I'd come back and she wouldn't be there.

• 36:49Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and I kind of- What a beautiful gift.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  What a, what a beautiful gift, truly. And then, you know, I was on the movie-

• 36:55Rich Roll?

  Did she pass when you were-

• 36:56Speaker 01

  On the movie.

• 36:57Rich Roll?

  On the movie, wow.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  And I knew, I knew she was going to do that.

• 36:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  I just knew it. I knew that she was going to let go while I was gone because I knew that she knew I would have come back. She just, she just did. Yeah, and she didn't want that and told me as such, and so.

• 37:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was interesting.

• 37:14Rich Roll?

  That also gave you the ability to have that clean break.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  It did, and it was really funny because public perception versus what it is that you deal with, I couldn't go back to Hong Kong for years because I was in a lot of pain over that. And I couldn't even go back for her funeral, like the schedule didn't allow me, I couldn't even go back and say goodbye. So it was, and it's not my movie, right? It's Tom Cruise's movie. Like, I don't walk into the production office and go, hey, can you do me a huge favor? I'm number nine on the call sheet, you know?

• 37:40Rich Roll?

  But in Asia, did the posters all have you on them instead of Tom Cruise?

• 37:43Speaker 01

  They, no, no, no. They had, they had all of us, yeah.

• 37:47Rich Roll?

  Well, there's so much here that I want to explore.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Can't trump Tom Cruise. Impossible.

• 37:52Rich Roll?

  First of all, it's absolutely bananas that the first American movie that you book is Mission Impossible with Tom Cruise and J.J. Abrams. I mean, that's insane, right?

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely insane.

• 38:03Rich Roll?

  And I want to get to that, but first I want to spend a couple of minutes on Jackie Chan still, who's really the Tom Cruise of Asia, right?

• 38:10Speaker 01

  You know, funny you say that.

• 38:12Rich Roll?

  I mean, this guy is like a perfectionist bar none, right?

• 38:15Speaker 01

  I have said that to everyone who's asked me about it. I'm like, there's no one who works harder than Tom Cruise or Jackie Chan on different sides of the world. Same work ethic, same just tenacity, same leadership skills. I mean, they're very similar in that respect.

• 38:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:32Rich Roll?

  So what did you learn? So I would imagine the boot camp under Jackie and his team, like, really, you know, sorted you out and made you prepared. Like, it's crazy, like, looking back in the rearview mirror that it all lined up like that. Like, had you not trained under Jackie, you wouldn't have been able to manage Tom Cruise, I would imagine, right? Like, that would have just been an energy blast.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  A thousand percent, a thousand percent correct, but also I... I had a work ethic, I think, that was just second to none, right? Like, over there, you don't... There are no breaks, there are no compliments, there are no... There is no encouragement. It's like, you either get the job done, or you don't. You know, you're out, you're completely out. And I was on sets where, like, you know, I had three or four different stunt women at the same time, you know, because not one of them was skilled enough to cover me in different bases, and that we're getting...

• 39:26Rich Roll?

  In Hong Kong, or on Mission Impossible?

• 39:28Speaker 01

  In Hong Kong, that we're just getting screamed off-set and fired left, right, and center, you know? And the... I mean, these are professional stunt women, where the director is yelling at them and saying, "If you're not better than the actress, get off my set." And, I mean, it's like that. I mean, it's doggy, it's crazy. So, the training prepared me, not just for the level of physicality that I would face when I got to the States, but also just the discipline and the work ethic to be able to just continue to push through until the job is done right.

• 39:58Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  And there's not a lot of people with that work ethic.

• 40:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. No, I know, right? I mean, we all heard that, you know, Tom Cruise outburst of whatever movie he was on, where they're trying to shoot a COVID, and he got all pissed off because people weren't following protocols. And it's like, he's the producer, he's the star, he's trying to make sure the ship is moving, and everybody has a job.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  He has every right.

• 40:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  To me.

• 40:24Rich Roll?

  And so, I heard that, and I was like, "Good for him."

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Okay. And I also, because I know him, I know how fair he is in the professional realm. Like, obviously, you know, I don't know him outside of the professional realm, besides his, like, housewarming. But like, outside of that, I'm not like, you know what I mean? On that level, but as a professional, he's fair, you know? He comes to work, and he's like, "I want everything to work, and I want to provide for people." He's a provider.

• 40:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, he's... I mean, I'm sure, if you did the math, I mean, he's responsible for, you know,

• 40:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  a lot of what the industry makes.

• 40:56Rich Roll?

  Of course. He sets the bar incredibly high, and then he outworks everybody else. And at the same time, it's hard to connect with it. You're like, "Is this guy a human being? Or is he, like, from a different planet?"

• 41:07Speaker 01

  It becomes very robotic.

• 41:07Rich Roll?

  Right? Like, what is the experience of actually working with that guy?

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Um, you know, the... He, okay, there's two things. One, he has an enthusiasm like no one I've ever met in my life.

• 41:18Rich Roll?

  Like, it just seems almost, it's so off the chain that it feels like, is this manufactured? Or is this real?

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Well, here's the thing.

• 41:25Rich Roll?

  And you're like, I think it's real with this guy.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  When I got to...

• 41:27Rich Roll?

  How does he maintain that?

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Well, when I got to the States, I didn't know any of the hoo-ha around his new relationship, like, all that stuff in 2005. Like, I just didn't, because I just, I wasn't following it, and I was on the other side of the world. And so I got back, and it was like, it was Carrie Russell, who I did mission with, who I was like, what's happening here? Like, who's the girl? And I think she's like, oh, you don't know about Oprah and the couch jumping? And I'm like, no, my God, what is this thing you're talking about? So we go to lunch, and she explains to me, like, there's this new relationship, and he's like, jumping all over couches and all this sort of stuff.

• 41:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, well, maybe he's just excited. She's like, I don't know, Maggie, there's like speculation. I'm like, oh, this is so weird. And then, you know, as we got into it and we started working, like, that enthusiasm, later, once I knew him, I was sort of like, I looked at the couch jumping thing with new eyes, and I went, no, that's him.

• 42:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  He does stuff like that all the time. Like, that's not over the top. That's what he does. Like, we're in Rome, and we're filming, and his door bursts open, and he's like, buongiorno, and he's so frickin' excited about the day. And that was every day. It wasn't like...

• 42:31Rich Roll?

  So what is that? Like, where is that coming from? Like, what is that about?

• 42:36Speaker 01

  I think that, number one, he genuinely enjoys what he does. And I think he still has fun doing it, you know? And I think at his level, like, who wouldn't have fun doing it, right? But, but I've worked with other A-listers, you know, at his level in terms of box office and pay grade, all that, and they are not enthusiastic about coming to work. So I wouldn't say it's the same as other people at his level. So that's special. And then, the other thing is, you know, he, I think that he knows that he is in a leadership position that can change the tone or galvanize the tone on a set, like that. And he's well aware of that. And he's right, because I'm not Tom Cruise,

• 43:19Speaker 01

  but I've been number one on my shows and things like that, or movies. And it is top-down. I mean, if you come to set and you're that person, everyone is affected by you. Truly.

• 43:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  You know, if you want to give everyone a bad day, you can absolutely do that.

• 43:33Rich Roll?

  Right. But at the same time, like, what is he, 57 now?

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Something like that, yeah.

• 43:40Rich Roll?

  Something like that. And, you know, he's jumping from building to building and breaking his ankle.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  He's still doing it, yeah.

• 43:45Rich Roll?

  And doing all these stunts and like, you know, it's just like, the relentlessness.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  It's relentless.

• 43:50Rich Roll?

  To achieve at the highest level is, you know, that, that engine inside of him is like something, you know, you just don't experience with almost anybody you're ever gonna meet.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  You just don't.

• 43:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  You don't.

• 44:00Rich Roll?

  And he's been, he's like in, you know, decade five of doing this or whatever.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 44:05Rich Roll?

  And it's still, it's like a dynamo, like it's a nuclear reactor.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 44:09Rich Roll?

  That never runs out of steam.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  He never runs out of steam. I mean, it's almost inhuman what goes on with that person. And I also can tell you from experience that he, he does do everything.

• 44:19Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 44:20Speaker 01

  And it's a lot of insurance to ensure his movies.

• 44:22Rich Roll?

  I would think so.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  He's out there.

• 44:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there was all that footage of where he did, he broke his ankle, right? Like making that leap.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:29Rich Roll?

  He doesn't have to do that.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  And it's easily done. Like, I'm telling you, like, I would get into like these, like, little arguments with JJ about little things on mission that he wouldn't let me do.

• 44:37Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  And I'm like, JJ, like, I am capable. And he's like, Maggie, I need you for the whole movie. I, I can't lose you now. We're in month one. It's stupid. Like, let's not take the risk.

• 44:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  And then my double broken ankle.

• 44:49Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Jumping off one balcony into another. And he was just like, it was, it was that I told you so moment.

• 44:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  He looked at me and I'm like, okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

• 44:59Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, the, the story is, and I don't know how much of this is true or apocryphal, but you do your own stunts. This is how you were trained in, in, in Hong Kong. And how much of that is still the case? I mean, short of JJ saying, I don't want you to do that. Are you the person who's saying, no, I'm gonna do that?

• 45:16Speaker 01

  100%.

• 45:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  And it, and it's like a problem for some directors, you know, like they, you know, for example.

• 45:22Rich Roll?

  What's a risk? Because if you get hurt, they gotta shut down.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  And this is it, right? And they're just like, Maggie, I don't think you understand what's riding on this. So I just finished a movie, I think it's, it's gonna be out soon, I think, May, with Michael Keaton and Sam Jackson. Martin Campbell directed, you know, he did Casino Royale, GoldenEye, Zorro, big, big director. And we do this, you know, movie and, you know, there's just things. And he's like, he's like, darling, no. And I'm like, Martin, but Martin. And so we would get into these things, you know? And one of the things he didn't want me to do was this stunt. I mean, there's two, only two stunts in my career that I've actually had. An amount of fear before, because I really don't have a lot of fear. And so there's a stunt on this recent movie where I'm running and I'm jumping, I jumped backwards

• 46:08Speaker 01

  off four stories and I'm taking out these guys on each level. And the rehearsal process was really, and Martin was just like, he was just pulling his hair out. He's like, I cannot believe you're gonna do this. I'm not only am I gonna do it, it's gonna be one shot on this, you know, we're gonna arm out and it's gonna be me, we're gonna, all the way, you're gonna follow me all the way down. Cause if I'm gonna risk my, we need to see it in a very real way. And to the point where like, we had a cameraman who actually couldn't get it on the first day. I was 10 hours in a wire, he couldn't get it. I had to do another day of jumping off four stories because he couldn't get it.

• 46:45Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  I was, it was just, you know, that moment, we were like.

• 46:49Rich Roll?

  How have you not been in a Tarantino movie? Like, I would feel like he'd be the first guy to sign you up to do some crazy stunt, you know, martial arts.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  I don't like his violence. I just don't, I just not, I mean, like, I'm not saying he's not a good director, like, not, none of that, you know, I mean, he's, he's kind of, it's just not my, I, I really, really dislike his violence. It's just, it's so gratuitous. Like, I like fight scenes in a movie and stuff, but like gratuitous and ultra gory is not my thing.

• 47:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  I, I really.

• 47:22Rich Roll?

  I wanna know more about how you got cast in, in Mission. From what I understand, like JJ just discovered you or, you know, found out what you were doing in Hong Kong and that's how it came together, right?

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, isn't that funny?

• 47:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Well, I had met this agent from CAA sort of six months before this happened and he met me at a party and he was like, wait a minute, I'm sorry, who are you, what are you doing here?

• 47:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  And I said, oh, I, I live here, I work here. And he's like, you do movies here?

• 47:49Rich Roll?

  I'm like, no accent, wait, you're American.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  But you're American. I'm like, I'm American. It just happened. And he said, you'll be in Hollywood in six months. And I was like, he's like, is that, does that interest you? I said, not even remotely.

• 48:01Rich Roll?

  How could it not interest you? Weren't you thinking in the back of your mind, like, eventually, like, I'll, I'll be able to do something in the States?

• 48:08Speaker 01

  I don't know what I was thinking. I wasn't a long, a big picture person at the time. I think I was in survival mode. Uh huh. And it was sort of like, I was going to just accomplish what I was, what was in front of me to the best of my ability and hope that I can build from there. And so I think, I was very small picture at the time, I have to say. And then he, um, he just said, yeah, you'll be in high, I was like, that to me doesn't spell success. I mean, if I'm, if I'm happy and I like what I'm doing, wherever that is, that's success to me. And he's like, you have no idea what you're talking about. So anyway, I mean, six months to the month, you know, I get this call.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  I have to fly to LA and apparently like JJ had cast like 200 women. I mean, he had seen 200 women for this role and he was like, no, it's not written, it's not the person yet. So we're not there. So I fly from Asia here and I land that evening. And the next morning I wake up, I am so sick, I cannot even, I couldn't even stand up. I had 105 degree temperature. I called the casting director and I said, "Oh my God, I don't know what's happening. I'm so sick." And she's like, "We're coming to get you, we're coming to get you." So she comes and takes me to Paramount. Is that April Webster? April, who's the kindest. I mean, if, I mean, if anyone's listening and wants to be cast in something like, she's the one.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  I mean, she's so kind. So she came over, they got me, got me to Paramount and I'm, I am so sick that I'm shaking, I'm going from like sweating, like fever, like you can't even like, I want to tear all my clothes off to being so cold that I couldn't even hold a tea in my hand. Like when I walked in the room to see JJ, my hands were like this and the tea was spilling all over me because I'd gone through a cold spell. And April was like, Maggie. And she really helped me. She said, It's 10 minutes. You're doing three scenes, max. And you can change your life in 10 minutes, and I know it's you. I just know it's you. So I need you to go in there and get this movie. And I was like, oh, my God. I mean, I was delirious.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  And then I did the audition and JJ on the spot said.

• 50:20Rich Roll?

  You did it in front of JJ. He was there for the audition.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Tom was promoting War of the Worlds at the time. He was very involved in the casting process, but he couldn't be there. And normally, he would be there once it was like kind of honed into a few people. And on the spot, JJ said, I will do anything to get you in. You have to be in this movie. We're doing this movie together. And I was so sick that I said, I think I have to go to the hospital.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  So I go to the hospital.

• 50:46Rich Roll?

  He knew you were sick, though.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Oh, he knew I was sick, but he also was just like, you got to bring it because it's not just me. I have to please the studio heads and Tom and everyone else, right? So I went to the hospital. I woke up the next day in my room, like, delirious. I almost, I kind of remembered what I did, but not really, because I was just so fevery. And I had this basket in my room. It was the biggest basket I've ever seen in my life. I mean, it was like the size of the, I mean, you can't even believe it. And I was like, I don't know anyone in LA. Why would I have a basket in my room? Because I wasn't sure what happened. And then I sort of had a card on it, and I took the card off, and it said, here's to a great mission. Love, Tom and JJ.

• 51:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  And that's when it like hit me that I actually got the movie.

• 51:31Rich Roll?

  It didn't self-destruct, though.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  It didn't blow up, yeah. I got to eat all the crackers and figs and.

• 51:37Rich Roll?

  Well, what's funny about the way that you tell these stories is you, you paint yourself as, as very much like this happy-go-lucky person who's kind of just bouncing around and like, oh, my goodness, I didn't know. And like, suddenly you're in these crazy, you know, situations and opportunities. But that doesn't hap, like, like, part of me is like. I don't buy it.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Right, oh good, I hope.

• 51:59Rich Roll?

  Listen, if you're...

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Tell me if there's another side to it.

• 52:02Rich Roll?

  Well, I don't know how you... First of all, you get selected by Jackie and his team. So you clearly not just survive that, you thrive in that. Like, you rise to the top and you become the person who's the go-to. Like, you're identifying these opportunities and making the most of them.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  Well, I have to tell you, at the time, it didn't feel like thriving. Because I may be moving up the ranks and I may be earning a measure of respect from these people, but they never made it feel like I was thriving.

• 52:32Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  Like, they always made sure that you were never getting ahead of yourself.

• 52:36Rich Roll?

  You knew your place, right.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  100%. So it was a real struggle. And then when I got Mission and I was on the film, I still felt like that person who had to like earn everything in every second and every moment. And then, I remember the first time I got a compliment on MI3. I couldn't believe it. I didn't know what was happening.

• 52:57Rich Roll?

  Because that doesn't happen.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  It didn't happen for like seven years.

• 53:00Rich Roll?

  The Hong Kong film culture, that's not part of that.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it didn't happen. And so I kind of sat back and was like, "What is this thing you've said to me that made me feel something inside that I shouldn't feel? Because then I'm getting ahead of myself."

• 53:10Rich Roll?

  But the minute you get to Hollywood, everyone's blowing smoke up your ass.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Well, that's what I mean, but it's so disingenuous, right? So it's sort of like, there's so many compliments that go on, you know, as you know. You know, this is Hollywood speak of like, and agents and people I'd never experienced in my career, going, "Oh, you're the next this and you're that and, oh, and we know you." You don't know anything about me. You have no idea what you're talking about. Like, you don't know where I've come from. Like, I'm a survivor and you're blowing sunshine up my ass because you think that I'm gonna buy it. But the truth is, I haven't gotten a compliment in eight years and I don't believe anything you're saying. It never affected me. Like, it never... People were... I mean, they would say things on Mission, they were just like, "You're so strong and amazing and skilled and..." It was, it was just this glaze. I had this kind of glaze of like, almost like abused child glaze.

• 53:58Rich Roll?

  So then what was the comment that you got where you actually, where it registered? Where you're like, oh, this is, this is meaningful?

• 54:03Speaker 01

  You know what it was? I wasn't a person who grew up with a ton of confidence. This is confirmed. Like this, this I know. So going into this industry, I did have this work ethic that was kind of built in. I have parents who work very hard and then, and then Jackie, right? And so you're, I'm surrounded by these people where it's like, you have to earn your way. There's no free lunch here. There's no like, you know, relying on, you know, your, your God given skill set or looks or any of this stuff. You have to work hard. So, okay. So I had that. And it was like, almost like emotional cutting. It was like very punishing the way I went about things and like, okay, I'm just gonna work super hard in a minute. But I never felt like I had, I, I had really gotten there. I had earned it. I was, I was

• 54:47Speaker 01

  really worth much. I never felt that way. And that, that's a problem, right? Because no matter what you're achieving, you still, it's, it's, it's never enough, but not in an obsessive way, in an internal kind of sad way. And so it wasn't until we were actually in Rome, I think it was our first day of filming. We were on the Tiber River.

• 55:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  We're speeding up and Tom.

• 55:09Rich Roll?

  With the speedboat stuff?

• 55:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Tom does everything, right? So he's manning the, I mean, he's the whole thing. And so we had a guy that kind of crouched on the bottom. If we have horse, if we had some like electrical failure or something, right? But he wasn't doing, Tom was doing everything. So it was me, it was the team, right? It was Tom, myself, Ving Rhames and Johnny Reese Myers. So we're in this boat. And we have a, you know, they're changing a lens or something, right? So we're at our ones and we're just sitting there in this boat. And, and there's, it was so intimidating because there was maybe 5,000 people that had lined, just to get a glimpse of him.

• 55:43Rich Roll?

  Lined up on the side of the river. Right, right.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  I mean, you, as far as the eye could see and you're like, holy shit, I'm, I'm standing next to a movie star. This is a movie star. Like legit, like there's no question, this man, like the power that he holds. I mean, just a glimpse of him. Like they were, it was crazy. So anyway, I'm sitting in this boat and it, you know, it's a really intimidating day, although I felt sort of like, no, I felt good about it and it was fine. And we're sitting in the boat and Tom's like, Maggie, tell me about your, like, I haven't seen any of your US movies. And I was like, I don't have any US movies.

• 56:15Rich Roll?

  He's like, what?

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he goes.

• 56:17Rich Roll?

  They cast you?

• 56:18Speaker 01

  He's like, I don't understand. What do you mean? And I said, oh, um. This is my first US movie. And he goes, "You're kidding me." And I said, "No, no, this is my first US movie." And he's like, "I don't believe this. There's no way." He's like, "Ving." And Ving's like on his phone or something. He's like, "Ving, get over here. Get over here." And Ving's like, "Oh, what's going on?" And he goes, "This is Maggie's first US movie." And Ving goes, "No shit." And I'm like, "Yeah." And he's like, "Damn." He's like, "Johnny, Johnny, you believe this?" And he brings Johnny over. It's like so embarrassing. So Johnny comes over and he's like, "Johnny, this is Maggie's first US movie." And Johnny's like, "Really? No way." Blah, blah, blah. You know, so everybody's like having this conversation about me in front of me. And I'm like, "Yeah, that's it." And Tom's like, "Let me get this straight. Let me get this straight."

• 57:04Speaker 01

  "You have not done a movie in the US." "And then the first movie you do is like a $200 million monstrosity, "where we're like on the Tiber River in Rome, "speeding up and down with this 200-man crew, blah, blah, blah, blah." "This is your first experience." I said, "Yeah, that's right." And he goes, "You know, Maggie, if you didn't tell me that..." He goes, "I would never know it." He's like, "You act like you belong here." And I don't know where it came from. I looked at him and I said, "I do belong here." And he looked at me and he said, "You're goddamn right you do."

• 57:39Rich Roll?

  That's fucking cool.

• 57:49Rich Roll?

  Like, that's a moment.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  It was. It was really like... I can't believe I just said that to him.

• 57:54Rich Roll?

  I got chills just hearing that.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  Well, I'm like, "Where did that even come from?" Like, I don't have the confidence to say that. But I know that I put in-

• 58:01Rich Roll?

  But you paid your dues.

• 58:02Speaker 01

  Eight years of blood, sweat, and tears, literally, by the way. And I was there. And I'm like, "Well, screw it. Like, why shouldn't I be here?" But that is not to say that I took it for granted, where I thought I was like special and like, "Oh, it had to be me." No. By the way, like, I don't care who it is. It can always be someone else. It doesn't have to be you. It doesn't have to be me. You know what I mean?

• 58:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  So it's keeping that in mind, I think, that keeps it all into perspective-

• 58:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  -for me in Hollywood.

• 58:32Rich Roll?

  Right. That's such a good story.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  It is. It's really cool.

• 58:34Rich Roll?

  Like, I'm just trying to visualize it-

• 58:36Speaker 01

  I don't think I've ever told that story.

• 58:37Rich Roll?

  -with all the people on the sides of the, you know, the river, and you're in the boat and the whole thing.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  It was a whole thing, yeah. Because- Again, I don't even know where it came from. I didn't have what it took to say that.

• 58:49Rich Roll?

  Well, clearly you were right and he was right because you're still here. You're still doing it.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  By the grace of God, go I.

• 58:56Rich Roll?

  So what happened with, I mean, that movie was enormous, but there were all these other Mission movies that came after that, right? Like what, there were some cast changes and how many didn't end up in, you know, all of them.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Oh, no, they called me for, for the other two after that and I was on a show. I know, I know. When you're locked into a show, yeah.

• 59:17Rich Roll?

  Which they were doing that then.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  And then they called again for Five and I was on this other stupid thing I shouldn't have been on and then I couldn't do it for that reason, which was like, ugh, even worse because it was like something I didn't want to be on. But you're sort of, you know, they kind of own your year and there's really nothing you can do.

• 59:32Rich Roll?

  That thing when you sign up for a show and that's, that's it, right?

• 59:34Speaker 01

  And that was it, you know, so.

• 59:36Rich Roll?

  But you've toggled back and forth between movies and TV like pretty consistently.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, then very lucky. I mean, I really haven't done much TV to be honest. Like Nikita was my first thing and I did it and then I did this one thing for one year and then I did Designated Survivor for three years.

• 59:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  And like that's been my experience.

• 59:51Rich Roll?

  That was three years, wow.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, yeah.

• 59:53Rich Roll?

  And that show's over now, right? Like Netflix picked up that, that additional season?

• 59:58Speaker 01

  ABC and then Netflix picked it up, yeah, for a third season. But I was, you know, I wasn't contracted to do a show on Netflix, so I was like, I, this will be my last, like I'm not.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  I don't want to do this for 10 years. Please, God.

• 1:00:11Rich Roll?

  Well, I know you just shot like a pilot for like a sitcom comedy, right? Like which is cool because you're like fun and you're, you can be silly and all these things. But your screen persona is so gnarly.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  Oh, it is gnarly, yeah.

• 1:00:21Rich Roll?

  She's badass, she can be intimidating, like I'm scared to talk to her.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I know it's super fun. I'm so excited actually to do a comedy. You know, it was funny because I did this little movie called The Argument that came out on Netflix and it was like this, this director, this young guy named Robert Schwartzman. You know who Jason Schwartzman is, his brother, yeah. Such a great guy and I met with him and I don't, it was honestly, it was Robert. Like I met with Robert and we were at a Le Pen, we're sitting there like having a coffee for like three hours and the whole time we talked about like, he's like, tell me the work you do with kids. And we were talking about like child advocacy and then that was our whole meeting. It was kind of like dark and sad and about all this stuff that goes on with kids in the US, we're trying to combat.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  And then we left the meeting and he was like, no, you're definitely this funny person that should be in my movie. I'm like, wait, what? It was really funny, but because of him, the creator of the show saw that movie and she's like, oh my God, that's my girl. She's gotta do this. So it only takes one person to see you as a certain thing because you know Hollywood, they put you in boxes and that's where you stay.

• 1:01:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Do you know if the show get picked up?

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  Uh, well, no, in soon, like in May. Yeah. Yeah. It's usually when they decide and then there's an upfronts, but which there won't be because of COVID this year.

• 1:01:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So the argument that was like, was not meant to be a Tribeca?

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  We were supposed to premiere at Tribeca and then it didn't, which you know, was sad.

• 1:01:51Rich Roll?

  Did it come out? Cause I haven't seen that movie.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. It came out on Netflix. Yeah. Like everything else had to go straight to streaming.

• 1:01:56Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. And then you did a horror movie too, right?

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  I did. I did. Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:02:02Rich Roll?

  With Luke Hemsworth.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Oh, that was yes. Yes. Oh, he's so great. What a great guy.

• 1:02:08Rich Roll?

  I've met him. He's friends with a buddy of mine. I don't know him well.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  Oh my God. He's such a great guy and they're such a close knit group, those brothers.

• 1:02:16Rich Roll?

  They really are.

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  It's so sweet to hear him talk about like, they're just, they're best friends and they really, they love each other so much. And like, he's really like, my brother's the greatest guy in the whole world. And they feel the same about him. And I'm like, wow, me and my sisters weren't like that.

• 1:02:30Rich Roll?

  There's some intense bro energy. Well, they all lived in Malibu and now they all live in Byron Bay.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 1:02:36Rich Roll?

  But anyway, I mean, what a threesome.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. They travel together. And also, you know what? Raised right. Cause when you're around people who were raised right, you just know.

• 1:02:46Rich Roll?

  They seem like good dudes.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  Super like, super down to earth and just like connected and good to their wives and kind. And you're just like, wow, what a wonder.

• 1:02:55Rich Roll?

  You root for them to be successful.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  You actually do, you know? I mean, for some of them, like they're so tall and good looking and everything. You're like, wow, it's kind of unfair. But then you're like, no, you're actually a good guy. Like I'm really happy about that because there's plenty of guys who aren't good guys who make it really big. And you're like, really? So it's nice to see that.

• 1:03:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we should mention that you brought Romeo, your dog. He's wandering around.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Kind of worked out for him because as I said, he got in trouble this morning.

• 1:03:22Rich Roll?

  How many dogs do you have now?

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  I have three.

• 1:03:24Rich Roll?

  You do?

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:25Rich Roll?

  But you had like, didn't you have like eight at some point?

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  I had eight at one point, yes. Actually, when Sean and I were doing Earthlings, like that time, I had eight. And it was actually Caesar Milan who had come over to my house because I've been having, you know, I rescue the big troubled, you know, I don't rescue shih-tzus. Like, I rescue like pit bulls and, you know, whatever, German shepherds and all that sort of stuff. And the ones that have problems that people can't help. I'm like, oh, I can, I can handle this.

• 1:03:48Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  And I couldn't. And I had these eight dogs and they were killing each other. And so I got Caesar Milan to came over and he basically was like, put it all into perspective. And he's like, you can't make a difference by taking them all home. Like, if you want to be an advocate for them and you want to do like big picture stuff for them, that's what you do, Maggie. You take as many as like you're capable of.

• 1:04:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  And you leave the, you know what I mean? And I was like, this dude is so right. He really, I mean, he was just like, because then you become a shell of a person, which you are right now, just like freight at the ends.

• 1:04:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's another thing that I've talked to Gene Bauer about, you know, somebody who, who, you know, owns a sanctuary. It's like you want to rescue all these animals. You have this pull, this yearning, this, this call to action.

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  You do.

• 1:04:33Rich Roll?

  But at, you know, at some point, you know, at what cost? Like, you can only do so much and you have to make peace with the fact that you can't rescue all of them.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  You can't do it all.

• 1:04:43Rich Roll?

  Right? And that, on some level, like Farm Sanctuary operates as a symbol, right?

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:04:48Rich Roll?

  Or as a, or as an opportunity to bring people in and educate them.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  And onwards they go, hopefully.

• 1:04:54Rich Roll?

  As much as it is about those animals themselves, right?

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  Well, and, and the thing is, if you try to do it all, you're also like, you know, not creating opportunity for other people to fill that space. Like, you have to realize that like, you know, it's all kind of metaphysical, isn't it? Right? You know, we sort of live in this life and there'll be voids and there are people who will fill them. And you have to, you have to leave the door open for that, right?

• 1:05:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  And, and that is a thing and it does happen, but you have to believe that.

• 1:05:19Rich Roll?

  Right. We were talking about this before the podcast, that, that with, you know, baked into being that kind of empath is almost this feeling that, that you, you kind of have to be a martyr. Like, it's not okay to actually... Thrive in the world, right?

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Like, you can't be both. And that's not true, you know? And, you know, some of the people that I've become very friendly with and I'm close to are now investing in, you know, some of the biggest meat alternative companies in the world, and they're not... If I closed the door on them, you know, they're not vegan, they're not veg, they're not whatever, but you don't close the door on people, right? You don't close the door on any opportunity because you can maybe have an effect in a way that you didn't believe was possible if you're not putting an expectation on someone that's your own.

• 1:06:09Rich Roll?

  Well, it's such an interesting time. I mean, you've been doing this for 20 years. I've been in it for 14 years, and the difference between then and now is like

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 1:06:17Rich Roll?

  insane.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  It's insane.

• 1:06:19Rich Roll?

  And at the same time, with all the progress and all the kind of mainstream information and enthusiasm around this type of lifestyle and living more sustainably and more consciously, there's also, you know, on this point of meeting people where they're at or not talking down to people, there's so much, you know, acrimony and infighting within these subcultures and communities.

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  Oh, 100%.

• 1:06:42Rich Roll?

  Vegans who are angry that, you know, that

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  The abolitionist versus reformist, yeah.

• 1:06:48Rich Roll?

  Burger King has, you know, a plant-based burger and how we gotta boycott them because they still use, you know, they're still selling beef and it's like you gotta celebrate these wins and meat.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 1:06:59Rich Roll?

  And it's like, okay, like, you're at a place in your life where you're not the customer for that Burger King plant-based burger, but there's so many other people that can benefit from that, or that's their entry point.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  It's their entry point.

• 1:07:11Rich Roll?

  And being compassionate to that and putting out a welcoming, you know, welcoming mat for anybody, wherever they are.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Anybody. Meet them. Also, you create a bigger demand within those industries you don't agree with, and who knows what that's gonna turn into? Like, you don't, you don't know.

• 1:07:26Rich Roll?

  You have to, yeah, there's, you need, you need all the voices. You need the hardcore radical, you know, person who's like, you know?

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  The PTA's.

• 1:07:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  And then the ACHA, and then the Humane Societies, and they're all different.

• 1:07:38Rich Roll?

  And then you need the person who can work within McDonald's to create change from inside.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  I mean, I work, you know, with a group, I'm on the board of a group called Social Compassion and Legislation. We do a lot of legislative work up in Sacramento and You know, it's that, it is the epitome of that, right? So you're sort of like, you know, you're going into these meetings with these senators and assemblymen and people who can, you know, these are lawmakers, these are people that, that really essentially work for us, right? And, you know, I go there and I'm, you know, sort of lobbying senators and, you know, in this building and, and then there's no one there and I'm driving down Melrose and there's 40 people in line for lip gloss. And it bums me out because it's like, we have so much influence, you know, all you have to do is care. All you have to do is show up.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  Half of it's showing up, right? Life, gotta show up. And then once you show up, you know, you, you really have to like be in those rooms with people that you, that, that may not get it, but what you're gonna do in those rooms can be pretty remarkable.

• 1:08:39Rich Roll?

  Well, it's one thing to be a proponent of this lifestyle and it's another thing to really shoulder that mantle and carry that responsibility to use like the platform that you have to, to advocate, you know, on behalf of these causes. So where does that like come from in you? Cause it would be very easy for you to be like, I'm just, I'm doing my movies, I don't want to make waves.

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  Sure. It is much easier to do that. Yeah, I know, I know it, trust.

• 1:09:07Rich Roll?

  So where's that, where does that pull come from?

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  I kind of feel like it's almost not even a choice in that, you know, we live this very privileged existence, like in every way, right? And I mean that in things that I've earned, I mean it in things that I'm living, like, okay, I'm given my health, I have this like gift of health and I can walk and I function. So that's a gift and, and then I've earned these other things where I work in Hollywood and I have certain privileges and, and, you know, you, you, you start to develop a voice for certain things and it doesn't feel like a choice, it feels like a responsibility, you know, doesn't it? When you sort of, when you have a lot, how do you not?

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  And it can be anything, you know, pick what it is that you sort of feel

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  isn't right in your mind, in your heart, in your soul. And you go out there and you really, you, you fight for it. And you hope that other people will do the same when something matters to them. Because I'm sure you get this all the time. I've gotten it for 20 years, like, oh, you don't care about kids. You don't care about women. You don't care about, you know, libraries. I don't know.

• 1:10:12Rich Roll?

  Because you've chosen to advocate for one thing. That's at the exclusion of other things that are important.

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  This is exactly it. I'm like, you're so right. I hate children because I love the environment or whatever it is, you know? And it's sort of, there's always this line. And so it, it's always this thing of like, you know, I have people that, you know, write into me and go, you care more about homeless pets than you do about homeless children. I'm like, interesting. And I said, I'm so glad that you care about homeless children. Well, I do. I said, well, tell me more. What do you, what do you do for homeless children? I'm fascinated. I want to know. Nothing.

• 1:10:46Rich Roll?

  Crickets.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  Absolutely nothing. So I've never, ever run into a person who puts themselves out there, who advocates for something they care about, regardless of what it is, who has ever criticized me. You know, and I'm in rooms with women's rights activists, my human rights friends in DC. We all kind of look at each other and go, thank you for what you do. Because what you do matters in your lane and in your category. It's always people who do nothing, who have a ton to say about what you're doing.

• 1:11:13Rich Roll?

  How often have you gone to Washington and done the Hill thing?

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  God, I'm set to go this year or two. I just got off a phone call yesterday because we have, you know, we're really on the, on the move, on the march for more federal funding for some of the child protection stuff that I do. And it's just, it's really, um, really daunting when you look at sort of budgets and, you know, what our policymakers, lawmakers, you know, allocate for certain things and not for others. Right? And I sort of went down this rabbit hole many years ago where it was like my birthday weekend and there was this child abuse prevention summit that I went to in San Diego. And I was, um, I was there for the weekend and The rabbit hole for me was huge because everyone was there.

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  Everyone from the CDC to Child Protective Services to forensic physicians to law enforcement. Everyone was there. So it was this think tank of how do we better protect children? And the CDC had done this presentation and to be very honest, it was really quite boring. And then towards the end, she busted out this sort of graph and it was like almost like this Sputnik kind of chart where at the center was abuse and neglect. And then everything that came from that, you know, sort of armed off into all these different societal issues. And I remember like, that was like the moment where the, it just dropped for me. Where I was looking at everything from suicide to opioid addiction to alcohol to teen pregnancy

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  to high school dropouts, everything that you can think of like in the 80th percentile was stemming from-

• 1:12:49Rich Roll?

  All tracks back to abuse in the home.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  Right. From when, when, in your formative years, when all, when you should be forming in the right way and, and you know, you're being betrayed and taken advantage of. And so that was it. I mean, that was it for me. It was just sort of like, I had read a couple things in the Los, LA Times over the years. I remember eight years prior, I had read this story about this kid who was like tied to a chair by, by his mom and boyfriend and he was beaten to death. He was six. And he had a, they had a file on him, you know, the Child Protective Services. Like he was, they were under investigation, but we were failing here, right? We're failing. And then eight years later, I read another story that was very similar with a mom and the boyfriend that killed this kid. He was like eight.

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  And the second time I had read about it, like that fury in me, like the same thing I have for the animals and all that sort of stuff in the environment, I couldn't ignore it anymore because it was something I think it was very, like, very, it just felt so personal and I was so angry that we were failing kids. And these are the kids, by the way, that grow up to abuse their partners and animals and all the rest of it and not care because they've been so disenfranchised and, and they're in so much pain that there's nothing that they can care about outside of their own pain. And again, this is stemming from the very, very early years. So I'm like, if I'm going to make a difference in some of the stuff I'm doing, like we talked about earlier about getting them young. We really have to do everything we can do to protect them at this young age.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  And that means exploitation, it means all the trafficking, abduction, abuse in the home, all of it. And so I did, I got involved about four, five years ago, and I have not stopped since. And so this year, we're going into DC and we're, we're really, we've got to get more money from the federal government for these programs because it's really the technology that's going to protect these kids.

• 1:14:37Rich Roll?

  Right, so what is the, what is the solution? Like where do you direct those funds or what are the policy changes that can really move the needle?

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  Well, right now, policy's tough, right? Because, you know, if you depend on the federal government to do what you need them to do, you're going to be waiting a very long time, right? So I work with a group of former police chiefs, federal agents, who have created this group called the ICAC COPS, is the Internet Crimes Against Children Child Online Protective System. And this is a system that actually finds predators online. And so a lot of the money really goes to upping the technology, right? Because if you're talking about criminal activity, they're, they're good at what they do, unfortunately. They know what they're doing and they know, they're trying to figure out how you're detecting them and they're trying to evade you at all costs because this is something that they are absolutely addicted to.

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  And so you have to stay ahead of them and that takes money, right? And it takes technology and it takes manpower. So, you know, it's, um, yeah, DC this year is going to be, you know.

• 1:15:38Rich Roll?

  That's dark, though.

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  It's dark and it's something people don't take on.

• 1:15:42Rich Roll?

  You have to create an emotional boundary around yourself, too, I would imagine, also just to be able to, you know, deal.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  I'll tell you that this particular area of protection that I work in is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. I could, I'll jump off a building, I'll do whatever it is, you know? Like making earthlings with Sean and seeing what I saw and what humanity has done to animals at that time, and then now, seeing what humanity does to each other. Those are the two darkest times, I think, for me. Darkest stuff I've ever seen in my life. And the reality is, it's happening. And this is not a subject celebrities are gonna take on. It's too dark. And it's actually not something I've ever talked about. Something I've done very quietly for a long time.

• 1:16:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because I haven't heard you talk about this that much. I mean, it's all about-

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  I've never talked about it.

• 1:16:35Rich Roll?

  Plenty on the animal rights stuff.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  Plenty on the animal rights stuff. For me, it's defenseless, right? It's defenseless lives.

• 1:16:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's the same theme.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  It really is the same theme, right?

• 1:16:44Rich Roll?

  Protecting the people that can't protect themselves.

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  This is what it is, you know? And it's, um, I don't know. I think, like, going back to what you said. It is a social responsibility. And if you have any kind of voice, I mean, look at what you've done. My God. If you have any kind of voice, you can truly, if it's authentic, you can really turn it into something very special. I do believe that.

• 1:17:06Rich Roll?

  So when someone comes to you and says, you know, "I have so much respect for what you're doing," or "It's so courageous, but, you know, you have this platform. I don't have that. Like, how can I get involved? Or how do I make my voice resonate more broadly?"

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  Sure. Well, here's the thing. You have to believe, number one. Because there are celebrities, as we talked about earlier too, who have platforms that don't work. You know, I mean, there are big singers. They put in movies and no one goes and sees them. And they have 60, 70 million Instagram followers. Like, it doesn't translate in that way, right? Or you could be a Gene Bauer, who like, was living in the city and finding a stray chicken lamb, dah dah dah, and taking it into his townhouse. Yeah, exactly. And make this enormous splash. I mean, there was no, he didn't have a leg up. He had no money. I mean, they were really struggling at that time. And they had a heart full of authenticity and compassion. And so, you know, it has to be real.

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  And if it's real, I do believe you can create a pla- I don't care who you are, you can create a platform. I mean, there are people with platforms who don't deserve them. You know?

• 1:18:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Wow. That's a whole other thing.

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  So if you really care and you stand for something, I do believe there's a lane for you for sure.

• 1:18:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I want to go back to the ocean stuff because you've got this cool company, Keep Up. That's all about ocean preservation and recycled, making garments out of recycled plastics. So tell me about that.

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  It's been so exciting because I didn't, I didn't come out the gate going, yeah, I want to be a businesswoman or I want to, you know, do it in this way. For me, it was, you know, advocating for the oceans for the last 20 years and working really closely with some of the best and the brightest in ocean protection for so long. And I mean really, literally on the ground with them and in the trenches for like 15 years with them. I know what the issues are firsthand and one of the big issues besides, you know, poaching and everything else we do to our oceans is this pollution, plastics pollution issue. It is a huge issue right now and it's not stopping, you know, and this is an industry

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  where we, you know, we created these plastics which became a miracle, especially in the medical world for transport and all sort of stuff. But we never regulated it because it was just something that was going to make so much money that we didn't care what the consequence was. So now here we are, generations later, dealing with the consequence of, of people who, who got very, very rich from creating this convenience.

• 1:19:38Rich Roll?

  It's actually insane that single-use plastics are like legal.

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  It's insane. It's so incredibly irresponsible.

• 1:19:45Rich Roll?

  Even if, even, even just like water bottles.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  Oh, it's crazy.

• 1:19:49Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 1:19:51Rich Roll?

  The amount of water bottles that get thrown out every single day and just end up, you know, where they shouldn't.

• 1:19:55Speaker 01

  Where they shouldn't. And, and that's really what it was, you know, and a lot of these, you know, very large marine mammals that are washing up and, you know, they're, they're, they're cutting them open and it is a really bad situation. And then obviously, you know, when that breaks down, the microplastics and everything else that's happening. So we're doing our ocean a massive disservice and I started researching recycled materials about a decade ago. And although the technology was impressive, the product wasn't up to par. Because for me, again, like we talked about earlier, like, I'm not gonna take someone to a vegan meal or a vegetarian, whatever meal, if it's not the best meal they're ever gonna have. If it's not the best meal, this is the problem.

• 1:20:37Rich Roll?

  And certainly, yeah, in fashion, it's like, we all wanna make conscious choices and wear the sustainable cool stuff.

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  But if it's ugly.

• 1:20:44Rich Roll?

  But like, I mean, it's getting, now it's getting there.

• 1:20:47Speaker 01

  Getting there.

• 1:20:48Rich Roll?

  There was a long stretch where it was like, yeah, but I'm just not gonna wear that.

• 1:20:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, if you're not like, if you're not like a full-on hippie who has nowhere to go, who kinda like, you know what I mean? Pitter-patters around and does their thing. I mean, if you're a working professional, I mean, you gotta look a certain way in certain environments. And that wasn't available. You're so right. And so, when I saw the technology and what they were doing with kinda the yarns and it was so cool, but it wasn't there. It just wasn't there yet. And I was like, I can't create something until we're at a level where I can create a product that's gonna be equivalent to the Nike or the this or that that's out there, where you're not making a sacrifice to benefit our planet, right? Like, I don't want you to make a sacrifice. I want you to think it's good and it performs and you wanna make that choice.

• 1:21:35Rich Roll?

  Elon Musk idea, like, it's not enough to have an electric car. The car has to be better than all the other cars so that everybody wants it.

• 1:21:41Speaker 01

  He's so remarkable. I mean, truly, like, I look at his interviews and, you know, I sort of like, I listen in on his, you know, when he speaks and as a businessman, just a straight businessman, I mean, he just makes so much sense in his approach. You know, you have to, you have to create a product that's, it can't just be better, it has to be way better than your competitor. It has to be, you know, and I was very affected by that. Being open to criticism and hiring the right people, you know, all the things that he sort of advocates for when you start a business. He's bang on. I mean, obviously, clearly, look at his success.

• 1:22:17Rich Roll?

  He's got some crazy tweets out there, too.

• 1:22:19Speaker 01

  He does. No, I mean, you're not gonna get that without a level of crazy. It's just not gonna happen. But at the same time, he does know how to build a business. And so, for me, I'm just looking at sort of that element of what he does. And so, I said, okay, all right, I'm gonna come out with something that is The best in its category. So, okay, obviously, there's active, we're out there. But we're the first 100% recycled line. And our quality is like second to none. Like it's, there's no difference between what we're, what we've come out with and what's out there in a non-recycled version.

• 1:22:51Rich Roll?

  So where do you get all the recycled material? Like, how does it work?

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  So, so my dream, and I've been able to do it in the US, and hopefully I'll be able to emulate this in other parts of the world. And we are, we are going to be able to do it in China, which is nice. But I wanted to create a company that was, that was founded in the US, made in the US, from US trash. That was, you know, that was the goal.

• 1:23:12Rich Roll?

  100% US garbage?

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  100% US garbage on 100% Americans. So, uh, we, they, they collect ocean plastics off of the eastern seaboard. And those plastics are then shipped to North Carolina. In North Carolina, that's where all the factories are. And so...

• 1:23:27Rich Roll?

  How do they get the, do they, they troll it out of the, out of the ocean?

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  They troll it, they troll it, um, they troll, but they also, so Ocean's Plastics, uh, um, I guess the, the literal definition is, um, anything that's two miles out from the ocean and anything that's 10 miles out from the shoreline. So this, because anything that's, they've done the research.

• 1:23:49Rich Roll?

  Between two and 10.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  Between two and 10. Anything that's within that two mile race is going to end up there. And anything out there is, you know, something that we, we have access to. But, you know, three quarters of what's in the ocean has sank.

• 1:24:00Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  So we're not even seeing, you know, what the actual, you know, the, the biggest part of the problem looks like. Which is actually very scary, because there's a lot of images out there that are already scary. And that's not even, you know, the, the bulk of the issue. So, um, that gets shipped, uh, melted in North Carolina, flaked, and then turned into yarn. And that yarn is shipped here to LA. And then we, um, we have our, we make our fabrics in a, in a fully integrated facility. Um, vertically integrated, which means that everything happens under one roof. So we can control the quality. They dye there, they create the fabric there. I've walked the floor of every single one of our factories. I've talked to all of the workers. Everything's ventilated, everything's certified B, everything is, you know, I mean, it's, it's,

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  people have paid vacations, they have health insurance. Like, this matters. And if you're an owner of a company and you can't do that, and you can't say that you've done those things, and you know how your stuff's made... Then I don't know what you're doing.

• 1:24:55Rich Roll?

  Most can and most don't.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:24:57Rich Roll?

  But I feel like that you were talking earlier about, you know, how the young people have a voice now that they didn't use to in prior generations. And it's the young people who are driving the train in terms of, you know, making more conscientious, conscious consumer choices.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  And they want full transparency.

• 1:25:15Rich Roll?

  It is incumbent upon any corporation now to be transparent about all those things so that we can make an informed decision.

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  And this is it, you know? They want to know and they want to know from the ground up and they actually care, which is exciting, you know? I mean, I sat with a group of like college kids and they were asking me about the company and they were talking about like, well, you know, tell us more about, you know, not create, if you're creating a product, aren't you creating? I'm like, well, okay, so we're taking this trash, we're milling it into this, our packaging is 100% biodegradable and disappears within a year in a landfill. There's no chemicals in it. We don't have hang tags, we heat press everything, like there's nothing coming, even our mailers are biodegradable. So there's nothing coming off our product that's going in the trash can. That's not gonna...

• 1:25:58Rich Roll?

  And you're a B Corp.

• 1:25:59Speaker 01

  And yeah, exactly. So we, you know, we did it because that's who we are, right? We didn't do it because it's like, oh God, there's this, we built this company and now there's pressure to change. Again, I don't care why they're doing it, H and M, all these people, like if you're gonna do it, great, do it. But we built a company with an incredible amount of integrity and it was really hard because it's not the easy road. It's more expensive, it's more time consuming, like lead times on recycled fabrics are way longer. I mean, we can't turn over the way other companies do.

• 1:26:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I'm sure the margins aren't what they would be.

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  No, oh my God.

• 1:26:32Rich Roll?

  I mean, H and M is successful for a reason.

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  For a reason.

• 1:26:34Rich Roll?

  And I feel like there's a lot of companies that just pay lip service to the idea of sustainability.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  What's a buzzword?

• 1:26:40Rich Roll?

  Like make, you know, just make our marketing green, you know, like literally the color green.

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  Literally the color green, we're just gonna throw the color green. Like Clorox does that. They put like green on their bottle.

• 1:26:48Rich Roll?

  Right, they feel better about it, but there's actually, you know, they're not making any real fundamental changes.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  There's...

• 1:26:54Rich Roll?

  Because it is hard to do it the way that you're doing it.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  It's really hard and if it's not the spirit of what you do, you're gonna like do all, make all these cosmetic changes, right? Where we're under the makeup, you still have bad skin.

• 1:27:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:07Speaker 01

  Right? Just because no one's seeing it doesn't mean that the issue isn't there. And so that's why I encourage like young people, whatever, middle-aged people, older people, like... You know, there's a lot we can learn from the younger generation and the fact that they do their research and they want to know, we should be doing the same thing because everything that I've done, whether it's activism or business, I mean, Wild Aid is one of my biggest groups and I've been with them for like 16 years, we do consumer campaigns, right? And that's who we target. We target the regions who consume the most rhino horn, ivory, shark fin, manta, like, we can't police the oceans. We can't police Savo and the Serengeti. We can't. It's too big. It's impossible.

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  And so, who are we going to speak to? We're going to speak to consumers. So, right? So, in business, you can speak to consumers in a positive way and say, hey, put your dollar towards this, you're going to make a positive change for these reasons. And on the flip side with the activism, we're like, don't put your dollars towards this and you can make a really positive effect in this way and for these reasons. And so, it's very powerful either way, but either way, you have to empower consumers. We are so powerful. I mean, if we wanted to shut down, I don't know, Walmart, let's say, tomorrow, we could do it. If we all just decided not going there. Forty percent of your workforce lives below the poverty line. You guys aren't paying people and they're full-time workers. That's disgusting. That's why I don't go there.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  But if we know these things, let's put our dollars into businesses that aren't doing that. Should a full-time worker be living in poverty? No, not in any business.

• 1:28:47Rich Roll?

  Right. The problem is that most people, you know, you have this cohort of young people who care about this and are passionate about it and are thinking about this in a way that, you know, people who are older aren't. But you also have a huge swath of the population that's just trying to, they're just trying to fucking make a living.

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  I get it.

• 1:29:05Rich Roll?

  It's like Walmart's the only option.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:29:08Rich Roll?

  And, you know, they got four kids at home and it's like, what, you're telling me I can't go to Walmart?

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:29:13Rich Roll?

  Like, screw you.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:29:15Rich Roll?

  So, we need both. It's like what you were saying earlier. You need that consumer activation where we can like marshal that kind of incredible power.

• 1:29:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:29:24Rich Roll?

  But we need systemic change and we need, you know, policy change at the highest level to prevent these things from occurring in the first place.

• 1:29:31Speaker 01

  That's 100% it.

• 1:29:32Rich Roll?

  These are not easy problems.

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  Well, you have to hit it from all sides, right? I mean, you know, we passed the California Cruelty Free Cosmetics Act and by 2023, California is going to be, this is the fifth largest economy in the world, and we're no longer going to have animal-tested cosmetics in the state.

• 1:29:51Rich Roll?

  The cosmetic stuff is insane.

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  It makes no sense. This is not life-saving anything. This is so trivial.

• 1:29:57Rich Roll?

  And you have the kind of animal testing, but on top of that, all the toxins that are in all of those products that go completely unregulated.

• 1:30:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:05Rich Roll?

  It's insane.

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  And this is it. But again, if you empower consumers to demand a certain thing, your legislators and lawmakers are going to listen because they're, they want to please their constituents, right? And they also know that the young vote coming in is going to be massive for them. I mean, I mean, look how they target. I mean, we just look at patterns on both sides of the aisle.

• 1:30:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:31Speaker 01

  It's pretty obvious if you can spot patterns and you have that kind of mind. I mean, they are marketing to a group. That group's going to demand a certain type of change. Now it takes us to go in there and say, well, let's make these changes. Let's start doing different policies.

• 1:30:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  And that's what it is.

• 1:30:56Rich Roll?

  Speaking of policy changes, let's talk about They're Trying to Kill Us, like our mutual friend John Lewis is how we got connected. You're in that new movie. I've had John on the show a couple of times and Keegan as well. And I'm pretty excited about this movie coming out. I'm not sure when it's going to come out yet. They're still working on it?

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, when is it coming out? I'm so excited. I can't wait to just...

• 1:31:19Rich Roll?

  It's unclear. They're still finishing it.

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  They are, okay.

• 1:31:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's, it's going to be epic. And it's all about, it's all about...

• 1:31:27Rich Roll?

  Food deserts and the, you know, the sort of imbalanced treatment that socioeconomically challenged communities are in with respect to access to good nutrition and the messaging around that, that is having a disproportionate effect on those populations and driving them towards these chronic illnesses.

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:31:51Rich Roll?

  Resulting in many deaths.

• 1:31:53Speaker 01

  Many.

• 1:31:54Rich Roll?

  So how did you get involved in the movie?

• 1:31:57Speaker 01

  Well, I think too, you know, when he's talking about, you know, sort of these more disenfranchised communities and minority populations who are dealing with this, you're talking about many things. You're talking about black and brown communities. You're also talking about like immigrant Asian communities as well, who are dealing with like, we gotta buy the cheapest thing.

• 1:32:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  We have to make it, like you were saying earlier.

• 1:32:19Rich Roll?

  Well, the liquor store, the bodega on the corner is really the only viable option for a lot of people.

• 1:32:25Speaker 01

  And you're right. And the fact that, which they do highlight in the documentary, that there aren't even grocery stores in some of these communities. There isn't a grocery store that you can walk to, right? There's fast food joints, there's liquor stores, there's everything in communities that will kill them. And that's all we give them access to. And the fact that they don't have the voice or the power to speak out against what it is. And if it's all you've ever known, that's, you don't even know that there's anything to speak out against.

• 1:32:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:54Speaker 01

  Right? I mean, and how sad is that? And they, on the other, on the flip side, you know, with the things they're actually buying, you know, we have been on every level marketed to within an inch of our life. And I don't understand why people aren't truly making that connection between being marketed to and whether they personally care about you. Does that make sense? Like, people get like... They get really aggro about like, you know, if you attack their food, if you say, well, that's not good for you, and they get very upset as if it's something personal and you're going, no, no, no, all I'm telling you is that, you know, they don't care about your health, so you probably have to make different choices. But I feel like it's a similar dynamic

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  if you were telling someone that their boyfriend was cheating on them or something. They're like, how dare you? How dare you like mess with like the thing that I know? The thing that I'm comfortable with that matters to me?

• 1:33:46Rich Roll?

  Meaning, in other words, that's myopic to the fact that you've been actually manipulated to have this opinion about this certain kind of food or lifestyle?

• 1:33:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:33:55Rich Roll?

  Is that what you're saying?

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. Okay, for example, I was in Wisconsin many years ago and I, I've never, I mean, I've been on, but I've never watched the, it's called The View? The View, right? That show, The View? I'd never seen it and I was, I had woken up.

• 1:34:11Rich Roll?

  I see where this is gonna go.

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  Oh, here we go. So I woken up and I turned on the TV, I was in a hotel, and it came on and, you know, they're talking and it is early View. This is like years and years ago. I think it was, it was very popular and I think just started. So it was the original cast of characters and...

• 1:34:30Rich Roll?

  Like Whoopi and Barbara.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  Right, right. Yeah, yeah. And the, and the blonde Republican woman and the, you know what I mean? They had a, like, everybody, everyone from every walk of life, whatever it was. And I didn't know really anything about the show. Turn it on and they're kinda talking, talking, talking. And I'm walking to the restroom and I hear Whoopi Goldberg say, "And the PCRM." And I'm like, what? And I stopped. And, and do you know Neil Barnard?

• 1:34:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  So, you know, I've worked with Neil, I've worked with PCRM for years, you know, we do so many projects and things together. And it just stopped me on my tracks. I went, oh my, oh my God, could it be that The View is talking about a group that matters? You know, like a really like important group that's really unsexy, that no one ever really talks about, but, you know, they should be. Um, and I stop and I'm like, oh my God, this is so exciting. Grab the remote, turn it up. She says the following. She says she's driving back to her house in Malibu. And I guess PCRM had erected this billboard on the way to Malibu. And it was a pack of cigarettes. And instead of cigarettes, it was hot dogs coming out of the cigarette pack.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  And it said, you know, 20, 20 quarter of all cancers.

• 1:35:43Rich Roll?

  Sort of a page out of the PETA playbook.

• 1:35:46Speaker 01

  Right, right, PETA playbook, exactly. But they actually have the science because they are a group of doctors and scientists who are saying, yeah, our independent studies have shown that almost a quarter of all cancers come from smoked, cured, and processed meats, right? Fact. Time Magazine is saying this now. The NIH is saying this now. The United Nations did reports on this now. This is at a time when none of these mainstream agencies or publications were saying anything about any of this, right? So, PCRM had already known all this, blah, blah, blah. So, they did this billboard. And she says, "So, I'm driving back to my house, and I'm going to Malibu," or whatever it is. And she sees this billboard, and she was so angry. And she said, "How dare the PCRM, you know, put up a billboard like that."

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  She's like, "How dare you tell me not to eat hot dogs." She said, "You know what, PCRM?" She's like, "I'm gonna eat more hot dogs." And then she said something like, "And I'm gonna give my grandkids hot dogs. I'm gonna give my grandkids more hot dogs now that you're telling me not to eat hot dogs." And I just, my heart just fell into my stomach. And then the blonde chick, I don't even know her name, she says, "I know, I can't believe they did that, and during baseball season."

• 1:36:57Rich Roll?

  Right. Cut to a commercial by, you know, Tyson Foods or something like that.

• 1:37:03Speaker 01

  Well, like, is she getting paid by Oscar Mayer? Why are you defending them? Like, when they do billboards that, like, have a ticker tape about how many people are dying from alcohol abuse or cigarettes or...

• 1:37:14Rich Roll?

  But Maggie, this is the American way.

• 1:37:16Speaker 01

  Isn't it?

• 1:37:17Rich Roll?

  You can't criticize, you know, my lifestyle choice. Like, that's the problem, right? Like, so that goes to the heart of, like, what does it mean to be an American, or what are my values?

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  Doesn't it?

• 1:37:27Rich Roll?

  And that disconnect between, like, just, just take it for what it is. Like, this food is not good for you.

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  Well, he's offering information, too.

• 1:37:33Rich Roll?

  Not telling you how to live. Nobody's trying to take your liberties away from you.

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  Well, this is what I'm saying. And if you're telling me that almost a quarter of all cancers are coming from this, you're also telling me that cancer's coming from cigarettes and all the rest, I'm not mad about that. I mean, it's

• 1:37:48Rich Roll?

  I mean, in the movie What the Hell, the thing that it was the same thing. Like, isn't there a scene where they do the same thing? They put cigarettes in the hot dog bun or something like that. And that was what provoked all the ire and, you know, a huge backlash. Like, it's and, you know, I'm sure Keegan did it on purpose, knowing that would happen. Because that becomes a talking point and gets more people to pay attention to the movie.

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:38:09Rich Roll?

  But people don't like that.

• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  I know, but let's have a healthy discourse about it. Like, let's, let's talk about it, right? If you're angry, tell me why you're angry and then I'll tell you why I care and want to provide this information. And that's really all it is because we all know for a fact that when you feel better, you do better. And there's a, there's a residual effect to that feeling, you know? And when we're, we're sick and dying and we're in our, the state of chronic disease that we don't belong in, um, you, you know that people aren't in a place where they can do better, not only for themselves, but for others. It's, it's just, there is an effect. It does matter, you know?

• 1:38:54Speaker 01

  And I, I mean, I have a supplement company and we, we center on gut health and we talk about diet and changing diet and probiotics and what they mean and why they mean. And it's funny because like, you know, I mean, I would say in anything I do in my career, I would say that makes me the happiest. When people say, I feel better than I've ever felt in my life and I want more people to do this and I want to change more people's diet. And I'm going to then go to my family members and my significant other or my coworkers and say, hey, this really worked for me. You've got to eliminate some stuff from your diet and be better and do this and that. That to me matters more than anything because you make someone feel better.

• 1:39:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And what I, what I like about it is your approach is you, you're passionate, but you're also not overly dogmatic. Like, your, your probiotic company, you partnered with our friend Frank Lipman.

• 1:39:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:44Rich Roll?

  Who like is not vegan.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:39:46Rich Roll?

  And I always have, I know we were talking about this before, like, I always have these spirited arguments with him.

• 1:39:51Speaker 01

  They're great.

• 1:39:51Rich Roll?

  Because he can't wrap his head around.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:39:53Rich Roll?

  Like, why I would be vegan or why I keep doing it. He's like, you're still vegan?

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he's my doctor.

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  And as I said, I have another doctor who's exactly the same as Frank.

• 1:40:04Rich Roll?

  Although he told me not too long ago that he was moving more in the plant-based direction.

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:08Rich Roll?

  I don't know if he'll ever get there. But like, my point being, you partnered with a doctor who doesn't necessarily cosign your dietary perspective.

• 1:40:18Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 1:40:19Rich Roll?

  He's an integrative medicine doctor, and he's a great guy, and he helps a lot of people.

• 1:40:23Speaker 01

  He sure does. Yeah, he really does.

• 1:40:25Rich Roll?

  At what point, you know, I think at some point, like, the dogmatic approach works at cross purposes with the larger goal. And we're fighting on the margins about, like, whether honey is vegan or not, when most people, you know, to bring it back to, they're trying to kill us, are lining up at Burger King and, you know, killing themselves unnecessarily. And this is where our focus and our attention should be.

• 1:40:49Speaker 01

  That's it. On the broader, more important things that are gonna change the masses, and that are really gonna, you know, create systemic change because the demand is there, right? Educating people enough to where we can create that demand, I think, is everything. You know, and not discounting, as we talked about earlier, it's very important not to discount anyone. Where they are, what they do, how they live. It's not okay. Everybody is where they are. And anyone who, you know, wasn't raised this way, or who didn't, you know, really understand the lifestyle until they tried it and it worked for them and they're happy with it, none of us can deny that we were ever in that place. We were absolutely in that place.

• 1:41:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and no one wants to be told what to do or lectured to. And if there is a, you know, like, going back to the PCRM billboard, like, the reaction on the view is, comes from this idea that you're, they're being talked down to, you know?

• 1:41:45Speaker 01

  Well, and here's what's even more fascinating than any of it, is whatever reaction you are choosing to have is you. It has nothing to do what's being told to you. Absolutely nothing. Because you can choose to take it however you want to take it, right? You can look at that and go, hey, that's, hey, that's interesting information, I really appreciate that. I'm gonna look it up, I'm gonna read a little more on that, because I didn't know that. And that, okay, that's a certain person. But if you want to make a choice to be defensive about it... Gauge how open your door is, or your window. That's you.

• 1:42:24Rich Roll?

  Well, that applies to everything right now.

• 1:42:27Speaker 01

  Literally everything.

• 1:42:28Rich Roll?

  You know, become so siloed in our respective, you know, information.

• 1:42:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:42:33Rich Roll?

  Sectors and.

• 1:42:34Speaker 01

  100%.

• 1:42:35Rich Roll?

  The most obnoxious thing you can say to somebody is like, I did my research, you do your, you know.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah.

• 1:42:41Rich Roll?

  There's a lot of that, and we, obviously, we see this in politics, but that applies to.

• 1:42:45Speaker 01

  Everything.

• 1:42:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:42:47Speaker 01

  I mean, even in relationship, it's like, I may hear something from my partner that I don't want to hear, and it may adversely affect me inside, but at the same time.

• 1:42:58Rich Roll?

  Welcome to being in a relationship.

• 1:42:59Speaker 01

  Right, but at the same time, when I can remove my wound from the situation and look at it objectively, it is always something I can do better.

• 1:43:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:14Speaker 01

  Always.

• 1:43:15Rich Roll?

  But you have to be, you have to have self-awareness around that wound, right?

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  True, true. Well, you have to know you're coming from a wound.

• 1:43:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:22Speaker 01

  You have to know that that reaction.

• 1:43:24Rich Roll?

  You're reacting impulsively.

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  Correct, right. So, you know, and, and as a female, you know, I'm a very emotional female. There may be females out there who aren't as emotional as I am, but I would say we're the emotional contingent of the two. And for me, um,

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  I always say to my friends, I say, don't do the thing you're good at, right? So, I'm very emotional, I'm an empath, I have all these things, like, I'm already good at that, I don't need to do that. What I need to do is remove the wound, or, or at least put the wound aside and be able to look at what's happening, what's in front of me, very logically, um, and, and have a different perspective on it.

• 1:44:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:02Speaker 01

  Because I can have an emotional reaction to it, that's normal, that's who I am. But I don't want to be who I am, I'm already good at who I am.

• 1:44:09Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:44:09Speaker 01

  I want to be better than who I am.

• 1:44:11Rich Roll?

  So, for you, what is that wound?

• 1:44:15Speaker 01

  Um, I think I would say at the heart of it, it would be probably worthlessness.

• 1:44:23Rich Roll?

  Hmm, that's so interesting.

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say that's the crux of everything.

• 1:44:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  Because going from a person who was at one point really defensive to a person now who like is completely open to criticism and invites it, um, is night and day. I can't even tell you. And it also, the growth is also night and day because when we get stuck in our story, and like you can tell yourself whatever story you want. I mean, you can be a six and tell yourself you're a 10 and you're gonna get everything a 10 gets. You know what I mean? But you can also be a 10 and tell yourself your entire life that you're a four and you will be there. You will not move past that point.

• 1:45:08Rich Roll?

  So what is it that you did to climb that mountain?

• 1:45:13Speaker 01

  I think a lot of reading has helped me a lot. I mean, there are certain people who have perspectives. There's a book called Letting Go, there's another book called The Untethered Soul. That's really ultimately about freedom, right? And when you think about freedom, as it were, as an internal concept, we can be prisoners of whatever we feel we're going to imprison ourselves behind. But we also, our, the human mind and the human spirit is so resilient and so incredible that if we decide to make those changes, they're made. They are absolutely going to happen.

• 1:45:54Speaker 01

  And so there's no more excuses in my life where if something's not happening, that it's someone else, number one, someone else, something that I didn't invite, or something that I can't change. There's just, there's no, if you lived your life, in any situation that you're in, whether it's a fight with your wife or husband, boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever it is, a friend, a coworker, and you always look at yourself and try to... To take the road from what you feel to your wound, whatever it is, whether it's worthlessness, or ego, or vanity, whatever it is, you will find that connection, and you will understand that it is you.

• 1:46:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:33Speaker 01

  And that's hard to take.

• 1:46:34Rich Roll?

  That's a very AA thing.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  Is it?

• 1:46:36Rich Roll?

  I've been in recovery for a long time. But yeah, essentially, you do an inventory over a situation, and you identify what your part is.

• 1:46:44Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:46:45Rich Roll?

  And that part generally tracks pretty closely with some character defect that is created by some wounding or some pain that dates back as far as you can remember.

• 1:46:56Speaker 01

  It's really true. And you're gonna attract lessons, and teachers, and people who come into your life to hold that mirror up to you and say, "Well, you don't like this about me? Well, guess what?"

• 1:47:08Rich Roll?

  Well, the more you ignore or deny that this is a thing, the more it's gonna come up, and the repercussions of that are gonna continue to escalate until the universe has your attention.

• 1:47:19Speaker 01

  Until you've learned that lesson. There's a philosopher, his name's John Demartini, and he says, "Whatever we run away from, we run into."

• 1:47:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  So there's really no... I mean, you've gotta solve it at some point, right? And solving it is you.

• 1:47:32Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:47:33Speaker 01

  It's always you. But here's the thing about energy that's exciting about this. As hard as it is to hear the things that you don't wanna hear and make the changes you wanna make, if you're always focused on yourself, you don't have to do anything to see the changes in the person or the situation around you. It will happen by virtue of you changing.

• 1:47:54Rich Roll?

  Right. That's a universal truth.

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  100%. It's a spiritual truth. And it is a game changer, and it is foolproof. There's no way you change your energy, and you say to yourself, "I've really gotta fix this problem in me," and that around you, the energy doesn't change.

• 1:48:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  Impossible.

• 1:48:12Rich Roll?

  The problem is, most people are externally focused, and they think, "Well, if I just trade up on my relationship to this other person, that's gonna solve the problem." But that's tantamount to just keeping the blinders on. And it's a mechanism to avoid having to look at yourself in that way.

• 1:48:30Speaker 01

  Well, that is what it is. Because what is looking at ourself? It's painful. No one wants to be in pain.

• 1:48:34Rich Roll?

  No, it's the worst.

• 1:48:36Speaker 01

  It's the worst, but guess what?

• 1:48:37Rich Roll?

  But the pain is what gets you to do it.

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  But here's the thing, we're always in pain, right? So it doesn't matter. It's a sort of like, you can either put the Band-Aid on, or you can go deep, and you can have many years where you're in a lot less pain than you are now.

• 1:48:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:48Speaker 01

  If you focus internally.

• 1:48:49Rich Roll?

  Was there something that, like, was this just a slow evolution for you? Or did something happen that made you do a little bit more internal work than you would have preferred?

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  I think it was, well, number one, it was definitely a slow evolution. Because it was like, book after book after book after, you know? Talk about a journey. I mean, you really have to journey and take what it is that you learn and apply it. So it's not just about like, being a bookworm, or being intelligent. You have to have an EQ, you know, high enough to absorb what it is that you're doing, and being able to assimilate it into your life, and then into your actions. But I think that, as a young person, and then going out there in the world as a teenager, and having like, sort of to make it on my own, there was a lot of pain, I think, that I carried, and a lot of forgiveness that had to go on in my life.

• 1:49:40Speaker 01

  And part of that journey to forgiving the people in my life that I felt I needed to forgive, was understanding them. And that was really it for me, when I realized that. And I really don't know what did it. But I went, well, if I can't have a perspective on the why of who they've been to me in my life, then I'm never going to be able to forgive them with a whole heart, right? Because without understanding, how are you gonna forgive, right? I can't, because then it's a surface, it's a Band-Aid. It's a, "Yeah, yeah, I forgive you because I want to feel good in this moment." But if I really understand where you came from, and not that you had no choice in it, not that you, but we know that life is hard.

• 1:50:25Speaker 01

  We know that being in the body is difficult, right? And being in the mind is even more difficult. And so, if you can really, you know, look at the pattern of someone's life and say, well... They got to this point with no tools. And then without those tools outwardly expressed themselves the way they did because there was just nothing. You know, it's like having all like the sheet rock and the this and the wood and everything. And you're like, I'm ready to build my house.

• 1:50:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:53Speaker 01

  And there's not a nail in sight. There's not a hammer in sight. Like it's, it's, nothing's gonna happen. And you're reined on.

• 1:51:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:01Speaker 01

  So, you know, if you can recognize that people don't have the tools, it takes a lot of stress off of taking things personally.

• 1:51:10Rich Roll?

  Right. But forgiveness is tough because it requires you, like, there's, there's, for a lot of people, identity is built on this resentment that you hold towards this, how this person or family member wronged you in a certain way.

• 1:51:26Speaker 01

  Totally, yeah.

• 1:51:26Rich Roll?

  And it's scary to let go of that because what would that mean? Like then suddenly I have to take responsibility for this? Or if I forgive them, yes, maybe I'll feel better. But this whole construct upon which I've kind of crafted how I see the world and myself.

• 1:51:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:51:44Rich Roll?

  Crumbles.

• 1:51:46Speaker 01

  Well, that's what it is because, because you don't get to be a victim anymore.

• 1:51:48Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:51:49Speaker 01

  Right? And it's, being a victim is a really safe place to be because there's always an excuse for why things aren't working out.

• 1:51:56Rich Roll?

  And there's a dopamine hit with it.

• 1:51:57Speaker 01

  There's a dopamine hit with it.

• 1:51:58Rich Roll?

  It can be, it can be very intoxicating to like indulge in that.

• 1:52:01Speaker 01

  Indulge in that. And it is, and people do it. And that's why they turn to alcohol and drugs the way that they do. But I think one thing that you just said that's really important is that I, I, I think that people view forgiveness as letting someone get away with what they did. Right? Like, it mean, if I forgive you, it's okay what you did. It's not even remotely true. Forgiveness is your own personal freedom. And that's all it is. You no longer are held by this act or this person because the truth is, the act, whatever it was they did to you is over. Right? It's never gonna happen again because it's done. The only thing you take with you is the emotion. So you're carrying that emotion with you your entire life. And then there's a point where you go,

• 1:52:44Speaker 01

  "I have to let go of this emotion because I need my freedom back."

• 1:52:48Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, you're the one who's suffering. That other person may be completely unaware.

• 1:52:52Speaker 01

  They might not even know.

• 1:52:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so basically you're punishing yourself.

• 1:52:56Speaker 01

  You're punishing yourself your entire life. So do you want your personal freedom, right? Can you have faith in the process that if you forgive someone and you have that freedom, you know, you're going to gain the thing that you couldn't see? You know, that which you have a belief in that you never thought was possible. It's only possible once you truly forgive. I'm a big advocate for forgiveness. I think it is the most healing emotion you can have. And the only emotion that's light enough to live with.

• 1:53:27Rich Roll?

  Well, look at you. You could be a therapist. I'm going to like sign up right now. If this acting thing doesn't work out, you know, Tom Cruise, whatever.

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, go into like forgiveness advocacy, full-time, full-time. Yeah, it's a journey, isn't it, right? Because it doesn't matter who you are. There's somebody or something you have to forgive.

• 1:53:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, everybody.

• 1:53:48Speaker 01

  And it's easier to do that than hold on.

• 1:53:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  I wish people would do it more, honestly.

• 1:53:53Rich Roll?

  But we delude ourselves into thinking the easier path is to hold on to it. Like there's the power of that, right?

• 1:53:59Speaker 01

  Well, the ego is complete, I think, with the human body, like in the human mind. Like we, we, again, back to patterns, right? You see these patterns with people where it's like, where are they holding on to their ego? Like, what is it? Which part of their ego is holding them back? And what is it that they value most where that their ego is driving? You know, is like taking that train, it's left the station, and you can't pull them back from that, right? So identifying that is key. Because you can't really be free if there's ego behind anything. You know, you really have to, I think it's a constant battle for me. It's a daily. Battle of looking at something, if I'm saying something to someone, if there's advice I want

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  to give, it's like, what is this rooted in Maggie?

• 1:54:45Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:54:46Speaker 01

  Is it rooted in like you having more knowledge? Is it rooted in you being right? Is it rooted in how someone's going to perceive you? Like, what is that? Or is it completely genuine? And if it is, great.

• 1:54:56Rich Roll?

  Is that process, do you think that process is easier or harder for you, given your public profile? Like, when you're a celebrity, or you're on billboards and all that kind of stuff, obviously, it's very easy for your ego to get outsized. But that also brings it up. Like, it puts, it makes it very present, like, oh, my God, like, my ego, my attachment to this identity, and how other people see me, and my future, you know, career trajectory in Hollywood, like, that makes, like, you're in the business of ego, right? So you're forced to confront it in a certain way, in a manner that like, a normal civilian wouldn't.

• 1:55:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:55:34Rich Roll?

  So, to me, it feels like, it can go, like, because it's so present in your life, it can either really go horribly wrong, or it compels you to face it and work through it, so that you can have, you know, a healthier approach to life.

• 1:55:50Speaker 01

  I think, luckily, you know, as far as the Hollywood thing goes, I think my saving grace in Hollywood, like, has been like, that worthlessness, that feeling of like, that void, that thing that I can't fill, so.

• 1:56:07Rich Roll?

  Right, because if, if I have, if I'm like, you know, in the Tiber with Tom Cruise, and I still feel like, you know, like, then really, there's something that I need to look at there, right? Because it doesn't make any sense.

• 1:56:18Speaker 01

  Right, and so, that's a struggle, and then, I think, in the personal, that's where my ego's been tested the most. Like, not professionally, but actually personally, because, you know, I think you, you get into relationships, and, it's funny, because when you love someone, for most people, it's more important to be right than it is to have peace.

• 1:56:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:43Speaker 01

  Right? And, and, I don't think that's worth it, right? And there was a time where it was just such a...

• 1:56:51Speaker 01

  You know, as somewhat volatile person where that really was where I was at. It was like, I think for most of my life, I felt wrong. I felt like I didn't belong, I didn't deserve, I didn't, all these things, right? So wherever I had the power to have that, I wanted it. You know, whether that was going to be in relationship, or friendship, whatever it was, like, I was gonna take my power back in that specific area. And, and that's all ego, right? Because, but it's also, you know, you know, the only time that we really, and someone said this to me, this is not mine, I wish it was, but, the only time we really get offended or defenseless, and it really affects us, is when something affects our, our self-perception.

• 1:57:35Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:57:35Speaker 01

  Right? So...

• 1:57:36Rich Roll?

  Or there's, there's, there's just enough uncomfortable truth in it, that it...

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  This is what it is. It pushes that button, because like, there's something I perceived about myself that is now being messed with. And that self-perception is so strong, whereas like, oh, okay, let's say I'm Maggie, and I'm not the happy person, right? And then, somebody said to a coworker of mine, you know, she was a little grumpy the other day, and you hear that, and you're like, "What? I'm not grumpy." It's messing with my self-perception. I see myself as a very happy person. And so, how dare he say I'm not a happy person? I'm happy 99% of the time, and why would he perceive me like that? Why does it matter? Why does it matter how someone's perceiving you? That's your own self-perception, that's protected by ego.

• 1:58:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're holding on to this identity, that you're a happy-go-lucky person that gets along with everybody. That's being challenged.

• 1:58:27Speaker 01

  That's right, that's being challenged. But isn't it amazing that that's something that, to your point, we've built up?

• 1:58:32Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:58:32Speaker 01

  I built that about myself. No one's like, no one's happy all the time. No one's fair all the time, no one's any of these things all the time. So to even have a self-perception that allows for that is all ego. Like, how can you call yourself one thing? It was ridiculous. So it's interesting breaking down the self perception. That I think has been the hardest thing. Self perception in my personal life, not even in the public. Like for me, I sort of I've come to terms with you're never gonna you're never gonna please the public. It's too big, it's too vast, there's too many categories, too many opinions like to I feel really sorry for the people who, you know, I have friends, celebrities who like they're on the

• 1:59:14Rich Roll?

  They're reading all this stuff.

• 1:59:15Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I can't even ima- I'm like, are you are you kidding me? No wonder you're always anxious and in a tailspin. They're always thinking about

• 1:59:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:59:23Speaker 01

  I don't I don't read any of that.

• 1:59:24Rich Roll?

  It seems like you learned all that when you were overseas, though.

• 1:59:27Speaker 01

  I did.

• 1:59:28Rich Roll?

  You had to learn that the hard way before, you know, Instagram became Instagram.

• 1:59:33Speaker 01

  I was like that when I'd be up for like a big like commercial campaign. I wouldn't get it and my agent would call or my manager and she'd say, oh, I'm really sorry, they gave it to someone else. I'm like, OK. And she's like, oh, it was a really big job. And I'm like, yeah, OK. What am I gonna do? Like, what is my fear or frustration or anxiety going to contribute to a situation that was never mine?

• 2:00:02Rich Roll?

  Right, but if you're in that, you know, to use your description of feeling, you know, this this worthlessness, you know, the the undeveloped soul will crave affirmation of that worth. Like, tell me why I didn't get it. Tell me all the things I did wrong. And like, oh, yes, see, I am worth like you're

• 2:00:21Speaker 01

  Where are you looking for proof?

• 2:00:22Rich Roll?

  You're affirming that.

• 2:00:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. And that's what traumatized people do.

• 2:00:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:00:26Speaker 01

  They look for proof all the time. And that's why when you're in a relationship with a traumatized person, I mean, any relationship, intimate or business, whatever, you know, if you're looking for proof, you're gonna find it, right? So, you know, if you if you wanna feel a certain way, no matter what someone says, they can be like, hey, you want a coffee? And you're like, why'd you ask me like that? I mean, there's always something to look for that that that proves to you, I knew it, I knew he didn't like me, I knew he wasn't happy I was here, I knew she didn't care about me.

• 2:01:00Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:01:00Speaker 01

  You know, whatever it is.

• 2:01:01Rich Roll?

  Pushing everyone away.

• 2:01:02Speaker 01

  That's a that's a It's a prison that I've, I know, I've lived it. I don't live it anymore, thank God, but like I, I know it really well. And I think that, I think it's something that is the great equalizer. I think we all, at some point in our lives, are looking for that proof. Um, some people look for proof that they're amazing, you know, like, like they think they are. And they become very successful. So it does, it does turn out well for some people, I have to say, you know, even if they're delusional. I mean, it's kind of like the fake it till you make it mentality. But I mean, they, they have the smarts to back it up. I mean, they obviously can-

• 2:01:37Rich Roll?

  It is funny how the human mind, like if somebody just carries themselves like they know what they're doing, like, we'll just get on board with that.

• 2:01:43Speaker 01

  Well, you know, that whole thing, when you walk into a place that you're not supposed to be in. I mean, you know, those people that broke into the White House, right? When the Obamas were in the White House, and they just walked through the front door.

• 2:01:53Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:01:53Speaker 01

  No one even checked their names. They were like, we're here for the party.

• 2:01:57Rich Roll?

  And, you know, likewise, if Tom Cruise walks into a room, like everybody, you know, it's like, I'm sure there's a crazy energy with that-

• 2:02:05Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 2:02:06Rich Roll?

  That that guy's carrying.

• 2:02:07Speaker 01

  Crazy. Yeah, the room goes completely silent. Yeah. There is a, an attention to that which walked into the room that's complete. You know, like, there's no mistake, who it is.

• 2:02:17Rich Roll?

  Well, I do think that you should start a psychology podcast.

• 2:02:26Rich Roll?

  This is gonna be your new thing.

• 2:02:27Speaker 01

  Your new thing. I just, I've always sort of like, the way that I've moved in life with friends or whatever, like, I'm figuring out-

• 2:02:35Rich Roll?

  Are you the friend that your friends call up who need to be talked through something?

• 2:02:39Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 2:02:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I could see that.

• 2:02:40Speaker 01

  But, but that's also because I have compassion, but I also, I do have a logic to, to, and I will tell you if there's-

• 2:02:48Rich Roll?

  You can give the feedback.

• 2:02:49Speaker 01

  Right. If you're making a move that's not good for you, I'm gonna tell you, because I love you. I mean, if I didn't love you, I wouldn't care to have the conversation. But I just, I think that for me, because I've struggled in the way that I've struggled, and when I see people I love struggling, I don't want that for them.

• 2:03:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course.

• 2:03:07Speaker 01

  And so I'll do anything that I can to, to, so that they don't have to feel the things that I've felt.

• 2:03:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:03:13Speaker 01

  And I, and that's it with all of it. Animals-

• 2:03:15Rich Roll?

  Being the best kind of empath.

• 2:03:17Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. Channeling something that's actually worth something, you know? So you sit in a room and you just feel bad all the time, like, I, what's the point?

• 2:03:24Rich Roll?

  No, nobody wants that.

• 2:03:25Speaker 01

  There actually is no point.

• 2:03:26Rich Roll?

  Nobody wants that.

• 2:03:30Rich Roll?

  All right, well, let's wrap this up.

• 2:03:31Speaker 01

  Great.

• 2:03:33Rich Roll?

  You're amazing.

• 2:03:34Speaker 01

  That was fun.

• 2:03:35Rich Roll?

  How inspirational. That was really fun. Yeah, I really enjoyed that.

• 2:03:37Speaker 01

  And Romeo enjoyed it too, clearly.

• 2:03:39Rich Roll?

  He did, I know.

• 2:03:41Rich Roll?

  He's the chillest-

• 2:03:42Speaker 01

  He's awesome.

• 2:03:43Rich Roll?

  -German shepherd I've ever seen.

• 2:03:44Speaker 01

  And he's young.

• 2:03:45Rich Roll?

  Mostly, we were talking about this before, like, most German shepherds are very, kind of like, manic. They can't make eye contact, really.

• 2:03:50Speaker 01

  They're anxious, yeah.

• 2:03:51Rich Roll?

  And they're always, kind of, circling and pacing around, but-

• 2:03:54Speaker 01

  I think he's also just swimming in being the only dog right now.

• 2:03:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:58Speaker 01

  Because I have another shepherd mix at home, and then I have a little terrier named Don Julio. And, as you might imagine, Don Julio gets a lot of attention.

• 2:04:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:08Speaker 01

  He's ridiculous. And so, I think he feels a little like-

• 2:04:12Rich Roll?

  Romeo's getting, yeah, he needed this today.

• 2:04:14Speaker 01

  Romeo, and he's getting all his man fill, there's so many men here, he's just like, yes! He loves, he's with me all the time.

• 2:04:20Rich Roll?

  Well, he's welcome anytime.

• 2:04:22Speaker 01

  Oh, that's awesome. Okay, well, he's coming back, then.

• 2:04:25Rich Roll?

  Cool, well, come back and talk to me again sometime.

• 2:04:28Speaker 01

  Well, let's do it.

• 2:04:28Rich Roll?

  It's super fun.

• 2:04:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, so fun.

• 2:04:30Rich Roll?

  In the meantime, Maggie's easy to find on the internet, @MaggieQ everywhere. Keep up, Q-E-E-P up. Is it keepup.com?

• 2:04:40Speaker 01

  It's keepupnation.com.

• 2:04:41Rich Roll?

  Keepupnation.com, right? And anywhere else you want to direct people, point people?

• 2:04:45Speaker 01

  I mean, Keep Up Nation would be awesome, because we have a blog about food and health and lifestyle, and we have a lot of veggie recipes and different things on there, and-

• 2:04:54Rich Roll?

  Good stuff.

• 2:04:55Speaker 01

  -self-care tips, and Frank Lipman as well, our buddy, has also given a bunch of, like, anti-aging, all kinds of stuff on there. You know, we're just talking about stuff that we hope people want to know about, and the information is free, you don't have to buy anything, just go to the blog and read some of the stuff we're doing, because it's only going to benefit you.

• 2:05:12Rich Roll?

  Cool.

• 2:05:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:13Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 2:05:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:05:14Rich Roll?

  Well, that was a delightful experience.

• 2:05:16Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. This is the most professional podcast atmosphere I've ever been in.

• 2:05:19Rich Roll?

  It's hard to be a pimp. You've got to step it up, man.

• 2:05:23Speaker 01

  It's hard out there for a pimp, huh?

• 2:05:27Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 2:05:28Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:05:32Rich Roll?

  Thanks for listening, everybody. For links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube. Sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, always appreciated. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page on richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, portraits by Ally Rogers and Davy

• 2:06:17Rich Roll?

  Greenberg, graphic elements courtesy of Jessica Miranda, copywriting by Georgia Whaley, and our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. You can find me at richroll.com or on Instagram and Twitter @richroll. I appreciate the love. I love the support. I don't take your attention for granted. Thank you for listening. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.