ROLLUP: The GENIUS Act Passes | JP Morgan Stablecoin | Stablecoin Summer

Welcome to the Weekly Rollup, where we cover this week in Crypto. We unpack the implications of the Genius Act's passage, which positions the U. S. to lead in digital assets and spurs optimism around stablecoins potentially hitting a $3.7 trillion valuation by 2030. Also: JP Morgan’s surprising entry into the stablecoin market and Coinbase’s launch of new products, including a Bitcoin cashback credit card. ——— 🤌 BANKLESS SUMMIT | SEE US AT DEVCONNECT https://lu.ma/0ph1qg6c ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🪙FRAX | SELF SUFFICIENT DeFi https://bankless.cc/Frax 🦄UNISWAP | SWAP ON UNICHAIN https://bankless.cc/unichain 🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle 🌐SELF | PROVE YOUR SELF https://bankless.cc/Self 🟠BINANCE | THE WORLDS #1 CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://bankless.cc/binance ------ TIMESTAMPS & RESOURCES 0:00 Intro 2:55 Markets https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/bitcoin https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/ethereum 8:00 ETFs https://x.com/jseyff/status/1934591572710211587 https://x.com/cointelegraph/status/1933534615395815761 https://x.com/JSeyff/status/1933635898140192849 https://x.com/JSeyff/status/1935043249141322017 https://x.com/EricBalchunas/status/1932527239679095097 12:00 Macro https://x.com/NickTimiraos/status/1935397119772217715 https://x.com/scottmelker/status/1935382005866189003 https://x.com/elerianm/status/1933505682625417521 https://www.ft.com/content/0d175cad-db7c-4dc2-83a8-90736f96f198 https://x.com/thomas_fahrer/status/1934056640476770678 https://x.com/treenewsfeed/status/1934589597394084071 https://x.com/erictrump/status/1934665029866881155 29:00 The GENIUS Act Passes the Senate https://x.com/SenatorHagerty/status/1934942333859979279 https://x.com/SenatorHagerty/status/1935491670805754100 https://x.com/SecScottBessent/status/1935027160374210573 https://x.com/secscottbessent/status/1935404649718157691 https://polymarket.com/event/genius-act-signed-into-law-in-2025?tid=1750338903189 https://x.com/TFTC21/status/1935027661421822149 https://x.com/RyanSAdams/status/1935371112403116518 https://x.com/intangiblecoins/status/1935095696454984027 https://x.com/intangiblecoins/status/1933583236778578274 https://x.com/pete_rizzo_/status/1933484989334659136 https://x.com/CryptosR_Us/status/1935475419286798505 38:30 JPMorgan Stablecoin JPMD https://x.com/tier10k/status/1934684065875284187 https://x.com/base/status/1935055475252543823 43:00 INK Kraken Token https://x.com/inkonchain/status/1934992073024823560 https://x.com/DefiIgnas/status/1935274751322435769 44:50 EigenLayer announces EigenCloud https://x.com/ethereum/status/1935010523776430587 https://x.com/ViktorBunin/status/1934969360851857532 https://x.com/sreeramkannan/status/1935028483044032921 https://youtu.be/P2PGQIe9U6g?si=Q6ZZPy9KzyPQLBaA 47:43 Blockworks Token Transparency Framework https://x.com/Blockworks_/status/1935321626788380714 50:10 Coinbase Product Launches https://x.com/brian_armstrong/status/1933290398799065459 https://x.com/tier10k/status/1933238313567080716 https://x.com/tier10k/status/1933238313567080716 https://x.com/CoinbaseBiz/status/1933228168783278110 https://x.com/vivek4real_/status/1933230638842232989?s=46 https://blog.base.dev/commerce-payments-protocol https://www.reuters.com/business/coinbase-seeking-us-sec-approval-offer-blockchain-based-stocks-2025-06-17/ https://x.com/luke_metro/status/1934061707158081538 https://x.com/KafiSq8/status/1934026011898683724 58:30 Roman Storm’s Legal Defense https://x.com/ethereumfndn/status/1933564840112435567 https://x.com/ethereumfndn/status/1894704611606385012 https://x.com/rstormsf/status/1933502107577168047 59:25 Stablecoin Summer vs The Plot https://x.com/mrjasonchoi/status/1935555875013538229 ------ Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures⁠

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Bankless Nation, it's the 3rd week of June. It's time for the Bankless Weekly Roll-Up. Man, exciting week this week. We got the Genius Act, it just passed in the Senate. And is the Secretary of Treasury bullposting on crypto? David, he called for 3.7 trillion in stablecoins by the year 2030. That's a, that's a pretty decent bullpost.

• 0:21David Hoffman?

  Did he call for a stablecoin summer?

• 0:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  No, we gotta get him saying it, that's next.

• 0:27David Hoffman?

  JP Morgan is also joining in on Stablecoin Summer with their own stablecoin on the base network. But it's a little bit different from the rest, so we're gonna talk about that. And then Coinbase releases, not one, not two, not three, four banger products that we're gonna talk about as well. We're gonna rank order our favorites. And then overall, there's just a lot of chaos in the world. There's a conflict in the Middle East. And BlackRock has a take, saying smart money is buying chaos. We'll talk about exactly what that means.

• 0:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, I'm glad I got you saying Stablecoin Summer now, too. It was not in our notes, that just popped in your head. The virus has spread. Some people on Bankless Discord actually sent me, it was a Coinbase email. And you know what the title, you know what the subject of the email was? It was like the big newsletter they sent out to all their customers, you know what it was?

• 1:11David Hoffman?

  Stablecoin Summer?

• 1:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Stablecoin Summer is here.

• 1:15David Hoffman?

  I cannot believe how sticky that has gotten.

• 1:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  It was always going to be sticky, and I think we got prices back. You're gonna show some circle charts later in the episode, right?

• 1:24David Hoffman?

  Yeah, we're gonna show some Stablecoin Summer charts, that's right.

• 1:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Alright, let's do that.

• 1:27David Hoffman?

  First, we got a message for everyone going to DevConnect down in Buenos Aires. Buenos Aires, probably the greatest crypto city, I think, on the planet. I'm gonna go ahead and say that. We are doing the second-ever Bankless Summit at DevConnect. If you don't know what Bankless Summit is, it's like TED Talks for Ethereum, doing it at DevConnect. We're doing it on Tuesday. Uma Roy is our brand-new, sparkly speaker. She's joining the bench of all the speakers that we got at DevConnect, including Justin Drake, Donkrad, Ansgar, Arjun, a returning speaker, and then Tamasch from the Ethereum Foundation. So, that's not until November, but let me tell you, you heard it here first. So, if you're going to DevConnect, make sure you get your tickets. But it's gonna be all-day event. Again, no panels, unperformative panels, just talks. And then we have a wine bar rented out. Did I tell you about that, Ryan?

• 2:11David Hoffman?

  We're renting out a wine bar. We're actually renting out Fede's Wine Bar. I don't know if you know who Fede is, but uh...

• 2:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  Of course I know who Fede is, yeah, absolutely.

• 2:19David Hoffman?

  Yeah, he's got a wine bar and we're renting it.

• 2:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  Just special wine, Argentinian wine? Yeah.

• 2:24David Hoffman?

  Naturally.

• 2:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 2:25David Hoffman?

  Malbec is probably what the word that you're looking for.

• 2:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, man, this is, this is worth going to just for that, huh? And the bar is really high on these bankless summits because the last one was like an absolute banger. I mean, I watched almost every presentation that came out of that remotely, of course. But there was just fantastic content, so hopefully the speakers are prepped for that level of, of content, huh?

• 2:43David Hoffman?

  I, I have told them that it is their job to take command over their session and they all, they all understand the assignment. Anyway, secure your tickets before price goes up in the future. Speaking of prices going up.

• 2:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  It didn't.

• 2:56David Hoffman?

  They did not. They did not go up. They actually went down. Bitcoin price went down 3.4%, $104,000 is where we are. ETH price went down even more. It is not what I'm going to call a Ryan Sean Adams week.

• 3:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  No, I don't, I take no credit for this.

• 3:13David Hoffman?

  Ryan takes no credit. It's down 9%, ETH down 9% to $2,500.

• 3:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  What the heck? You know, things were looking so rosy and then you, you said it about the chaos in the world, Israel and Iran. And that started happening, escalating even more. And then we, we did a tank, it seemed like on the, on the back of that.

• 3:29David Hoffman?

  We did a little tanky.

• 3:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Is that the reason? This started happening Thursday, Friday?

• 3:34David Hoffman?

  I don't know. I mean, Bitcoin actually started to really appreciate after the conflict and, you know, it got, it got its regular jitters. We're going to talk about this because BlackRock put out a piece about this. It got its regular jitters whenever uncertainty happens, but then it started to perform really strong. But now we're just like ranging again. We are ranging. You know what has gone upity, upity, up? Let me tell you. Circle price. This chart is the chart of Sabo Coin Summer. Last week, Ryan, we were talking about the circle price. Do you remember what it was roughly last week, roughly seven days ago?

• 4:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I, I was thinking around 80.

• 4:06David Hoffman?

  Yeah. Yeah, which was just fine. You know, it was down from the $110 peak that it had like two days prior, but $80 for circle is incredible. Have you been watching the price session?

• 4:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  No, I've been seeing tweets about it. I've not looked at charts, but I mean, even the 80, that was way, it was up double, you know, like more than almost triple, right? From like, what was the IPO price? 30, something like that, 31, 32? Okay, what are we doing now?

• 4:31David Hoffman?

  We are clocking in $199.84 and it all, it hit like an intra-day high of like $230, which puts Circle at something like a $55 billion market cap. The $199 price, that's a $48 billion market cap, but Circle is like almost a Coinbase. Coinbase is currently at $75 billion after having a 15% day, the day before a recording, so Circle or Coinbase also had a pretty-

• 4:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  15% up?

• 4:57David Hoffman?

  15% up, yeah. 15% up, yeah. But Circle is just, it is starting to be completely delulu price action right now.

• 5:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is crazy. It can't, this can't continue, right? I'm not going to short it, but it can't continue.

• 5:10David Hoffman?

  I, I thought about like, man, I know it's dumb to short and I'm not a short seller and I should not do that, but man, I want to short it. And that, I was thinking those thoughts are like $110.

• 5:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Just admire, just admire. That's all you have to do.

• 5:22David Hoffman?

  Got to respect the problem.

• 5:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  You brought some other charts though. What do we got here?

• 5:25David Hoffman?

  Okay, this chart is the Solana-Etherium ratio. Solana is flat versus Ether on the year, on the year. I mean, it's obviously done-

• 5:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  On the whole year?

• 5:34David Hoffman?

  On the whole year. So, I mean, it's June 19th, so six months, 19 days. Solana versus Ether is flat. So Solana, Solana's shown some, some weakness just over the last like couple of months or so. And Ether over the last like six, six months has been flat. Obviously, the six months before that were very bullish for Solana, but Solana has not made any ground on Ethereum.

• 5:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is sole weakness or Ether strength? Or is the answer that yes?

• 5:59David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I think that's up for interpretation of the listener, but there's definitely some sole weakness, not, which is not to say that Ether has been strong. Ether did have that like 50% candle day, but so far that's kind of proven to just be just a one-off.

• 6:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's really having a hard time getting above 3K.

• 6:15David Hoffman?

  They did not turn that 50% candle day into momentum as of yet. If you look at the next chart, which is sole BTC, does this chart look familiar to you, Ryan, at all? When you look at the shape of this chart, the Solana Bitcoin chart, sole BTC ratio?

• 6:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  It just looks like an asset that is just bleeding lately, anyway, bleeding out since 2024. Looks like bleeding out to Bitcoin, right? To King Bitcoin, just kneeling. It's just like kneeling. It's crouching down before the King and it's, you know, apologizing, kissing some feet, maybe.

• 6:44David Hoffman?

  So when you look at this chart, like, oh, and let's go open up the next chart, which is the ETH BTC ratio.

• 6:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  No, this is painful.

• 6:51David Hoffman?

  And this flip back and forth between the Solana Bitcoin ratio and the Ethereum Bitcoin ratio. Do you just notice anything?

• 6:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's bleed season. They're just bleeding to Bitcoin.

• 7:02David Hoffman?

  They look like the same chart, just Solana is just one, one and a half years behind Ethereum.

• 7:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, well, I mean, there's a little bump. It's, it's felt like.

• 7:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  There's a little green right here lately in the last, you know, two months or so. So maybe not all hope is lost. There's got to be some reversion to the mean here, right?

• 7:22David Hoffman?

  Overall, like, the big common denominator I'm seeing is, like, Bitcoin strength is just so high. Which, I mean, we, the other chart that's missing here is Bitcoin dominance, which continues to be very, very high.

• 7:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, altcoin season is nigh, though, David. It's gotta be because it's around that time and Bitcoin dominance cannot get to 100%.

• 7:40David Hoffman?

  Means anymore.

• 7:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Ah, you'll remember. Once we get the first hints of green, the first green shoots in these charts, you'll remember.

• 7:48David Hoffman?

  Sure, sure.

• 7:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm still a believer.

• 7:50David Hoffman?

  All right, let's get into the rest of the Marcus news. Trump's Truth Social has filed for a dual Bitcoin and Ethereum ETF. This is in addition to their Bitcoin ETF, so now they have another one. The allocation will be 75% Bitcoin, 25% Ethereum, which will rebalance quarterly to maintain that ratio. Ticker B dot T, consodiancrypto.com. They are, again, like they already, like I said, they already had their Bitcoin S1 filed like one or two weeks ago. So the SEC has a 45-day window to review this, can stretch it up to 240 days if greenlit. It could launch in later in 2025.

• 8:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  Dual ETFs are weird. Like, I can just buy, if I want to, I can buy 75% Bitcoin ETF and 25% ETH if I want to. I don't need somebody to, like, duel it for me and just, I don't know.

• 8:36David Hoffman?

  Yeah, at that point, it just like, I'd prefer to have some, something like ARC, which is like an actively managed ETF by somebody who I trust, but.

• 8:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  And speaking of ETFs, David, there's a lot more on the horizon. This, this might revive the altcoin season in you, okay?

• 8:50David Hoffman?

  Except as an ETF season in Trifile.

• 8:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Maybe. So this is, I believe this is a chart of the Bloomberg probability of approval for down market assets, non Bitcoin, non ETH assets of when they're going to get their ETF. Okay. And the Bloomberg guys are pretty good at this.

• 9:08David Hoffman?

  They're good at this. This is their job.

• 9:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  Odds of approval in 2025, again, not next month, but this year for Litecoin, above 90% for Solana, above 90% for XRP, 85% for Dogecoin, 80% Cardano even, 75%. We're just getting ETFs for all the things.

• 9:28David Hoffman?

  Wow, this is just extremely favorable. Everyone is most more likely to pass than not pass.

• 9:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I mean, I guess this is not surprising, given we have such a crypto favorable administration in SEC and we have kind of the, whatever the opposite of Gensler is, that's what two Paul Atkins is as the, as the chair. So we're getting approvals for all of these. And there's also talk that some of these ETFs will include staking. Maybe the Solana ETF will include staking, for instance, which also begs the question, how about ETH staking ETF? That's coming as well? What's that waiting on?

• 10:01David Hoffman?

  If one gets the staking ETF, then the other will too.

• 10:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 10:05David Hoffman?

  I think they'll probably come at the same time.

• 10:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Did you notice though, look at the firms that have filed for the S1s for all these other ETFs. What's missing? Which firm is missing here?

• 10:15David Hoffman?

  Okay, let's see. Grayscale, Bitwise, HashDex, Franklin Templeton, CoinShares, VanEck, 21Shares. These are all, I'm reading off all the potential issuers.

• 10:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. Who are you missing?

• 10:25David Hoffman?

  Who is the big multi-trillion dollar asset manager in the room that doesn't have a down market ETF that they want approved?

• 10:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, there's no, there's no, say it.

• 10:36David Hoffman?

  BlackRock. There's no BlackRock. Yeah. Yeah. Which like you would wonder, BlackRock, they're not dummies. So why not issue anything below Bitcoin and Ethereum? As we know, both Bitcoin and Ethereum had massively successful ETFs, like incredible demand compared to any other type of ETF that came before it. And I mean, we've talked to BlackRock people before. They, they would say that they would issue an ETF if they had consumer demand for it, if their clients actually demanded for it. And so my indication, understanding their Those statements that they've said that they don't think that there is demand down market beyond Ether, which is a hypothesis, is an idea that we will be able to test if all of these things are more likely than not to get approved by the end of 2025.

• 11:18David Hoffman?

  We will be able to see exactly how much demand there is for a Dogecoin ETF or a Solana ETF.

• 11:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I wonder. You really have to wonder how much demand there is going to be for Dogecoin ETF, right? The thing that was like, I just wanted Dogecoin in my 401k.

• 11:33David Hoffman?

  I wasn't gonna buy Dogecoin before now, but now that it's in my, now it's in Robinhood, I can get it.

• 11:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, so maybe.

• 11:39David Hoffman?

  Oh, it's already in Robinhood.

• 11:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it is. Yeah. So like, maybe BlackRock has kind of the right idea. Maybe the market's just too small. Or maybe, like, and that's the thing that would push this over to 100% because if BlackRock was on the one of these, you know, then probability is 100% because BlackRock always gets what they want, right? Do you want to talk about the Fed this week, what they're doing with interest rates, David?

• 11:57David Hoffman?

  I would like for you to inform me about what happened. Yes, please.

• 12:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's pretty simple. The answer is nothing. They're not doing anything. So they're keeping the rates the same. Target range, 4.25% to 4.5%. This was completely expected. This was in script. And much to Trump's dismay, did you see some of the clips coming out about Donald Trump? It's just like entertaining. Okay, it's just entertainment. I'm gonna play you one. Here it is.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Doing well, well, and as a country, if the Fed would ever lower rates, you know, would buy debt for a lot less. It's a shame. This guy, I have a guy, do you ever have a guy that's not a smart person and you're dealing with him and you have to deal, he's not a smart guy. He's worried about inflation. I said, that's right. If there's inflation in six months or nine months, you lower the rates or you raise the rates. You can do whatever you want, Brian, right? So let's say there's rampant inflation, which there's none. You know what? There is a success. I got a call from Congress last night. Sir, there's a problem. I said, what is it? Money is pouring in. We don't know how to account for it. I said, check the tariffs. $88 billion came in from tariffs, no inflation. And it's gonna get even more so.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  I know what I'm doing. So we have a stupid person, frankly, at the Fed. He probably won't cut today. Europe had 10 cuts and we had none. And I guess he's a political guy. I don't know. He's a political guy who's not a smart person, but he's crossing the country a fortune. So what I'm gonna do is, you know, he gets out in about nine months. He has to, he gets fortunately terminated.

• 13:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  That was Donald Trump, speaking of Fed Chair Jerome Powell.

• 13:29David Hoffman?

  Just being a total bully.

• 13:32David Hoffman?

  Their clip goes on for three, five minutes. We only played a bit of it, but the whole time, he's just calling Jerome Powell a stupid man. He's like, oh, man, you ever have to deal with a stupid man? He just makes stupid decisions. Like, if inflation goes up, you just raise rates. If it goes down, you lower rates. It's as simple as that.

• 13:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's all ad lib. It's like, this looks like a stand-up routine to me. He's got, you know, the background, these, like, kind of, I don't know, the construction workers are just like laughing, chuckling along with everything he says. Anyway, the Fed is supposed to be independent, making some decisions. We'll see how long that lasts. Right now, they're, they're holding the line here. Something else that's been happening in the chaos, of course, Israel-Iran conflict. You'd expect investors to flee to the safe haven assets, right, David?

• 14:12David Hoffman?

  Right. Yeah. Conflict in the Middle East with one of the world's largest oil producers, where there's a fight, tug of war over nuclear weapons. That's scary for markets. That's uncertainty for markets.

• 14:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  And what is the safe haven asset of safe haven assets? What sets the risk-free rate for all capital?

• 14:29David Hoffman?

  My favorite assets on the world, in the world, bonds.

• 14:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  Bonds. That's right. Treasuries, okay? But a curious thing happened when this conflict was breaking out, all right, which is treasuries didn't look like safe haven assets at all. So their yields barely budged after the Israeli attacks on Iran, and that was pretty chaotic for markets. Instead, what happened-

• 14:52David Hoffman?

  Yields have gone up. Yields have gone up since then.

• 14:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, exactly. Instead, what happened was gold and silver took a run, and they started appreciating. So are investors fleeing to gold rather than treasuries? I mean, it seems like it looks like it from the charts, and that was a pretty instant reaction here.

• 15:11David Hoffman?

  Yeah. Downstream of that, gold has now eclipsed the euro in market cap. So, I mean, I'm kind of surprised that it hadn't already. But it turns out, because of the appreciation of gold and also just net buying of gold by European countries, as well as China and Turkey, non-European countries pushing up the price of gold, gold is now larger than the euro.

• 15:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. So gold on central bank balance sheets is about 20% of all central bank reserves, right? And so I guess the dollar is still at 46%. So- Is 46%, but euros is only 16%. You know, BlackRock is trying to do this thing. We had them on last summer and they keep saying that Bitcoin is not a risk on asset. It's a risk off asset. Okay. And they're continually trying to reinforce this and they put together this chart, David. What do you see in this chart? This is, this is a chart of major catalysts. It's a table really of major catalysts, you know, kind of catastrophic events, things that are destabilizing. You've got in 2020, US Iran escalation. You've got COVID outbreak.

• 16:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  You've got the election challenges of 2020. You've got the Russia invasion of Ukraine. And what they're charting here is 10 day return for S and P 500 for gold and for Bitcoin. And you look at the 10 day return and you look at the 60 day return. You see all the green here, David? So Bitcoin is green. It's green on the 10 day for a number of these events, three, three out of the, I guess, six here. And on the 60 day return, it's green in all of the events.

• 16:46David Hoffman?

  Almost all of them. Yeah.

• 16:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. So what they're making the case is, hey, 60 day, 60 days from a destabilizing event, something like Israel and Iran conflict. What tends to happen is first Bitcoin, maybe it goes down, but six years later it's back up. So they're saying it's, it's actually a risk off asset. It's not a risk on asset.

• 17:06David Hoffman?

  Yeah. And they've been saying this for over a year now. And I think with the Israel Iran conflict, you actually really just, it's one thing to make a prediction, you know, looking at data retroactively, but then something after that prediction happens that would test that hypothesis. And Bitcoin performed right in line with that hypothesis. So it's growing in confidence that that's exactly what Bitcoin does. It gets the jitters, just like all other assets, but then after that it just comes out stronger.

• 17:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  So what that means is if this follows the trend 60 days from now, we're going to be well into the green.

• 17:34David Hoffman?

  Granted, if you zoom, the longer you zoom out, the more likely Bitcoin is going to be green. So at some point it's also measuring that at the same time. All right. So in addition to stablecoin summer, it's also SPAC summer. So Justin Sun's Tron group is trying to go public in the United States with a special like acquisition vehicle for TRX. The Wall Street Journal, or maybe it was the Financial Times, they reported it as Justin Sun's Tron trying to go public. That's not what's happening. It's basically a micro-strategy for TRX. And this happens just a number of months after US regulators paused a fraud probe into Justin Sun and his companies under his control, which is after Justin Sun makes a major investment into World Liberty Financial and the Trump meme coin and does a, like a video blog of Justin Sun's

• 18:19David Hoffman?

  attendance of the meme coin dinner. I don't know if you saw that, that blog. So there's a little bit of like, what's going on over here? Because not only that, but Justin Sun is going to be an advisor to Tron Inc., the company, of course, that makes sense, but so will Eric Trump. The Trump family will reportedly have a position on the board of this, like, special acquisition vehicle for Tron.

• 18:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  The special acquisition vehicle is like a micro-strategy for Tron, right? And so Justin Sun is depositing, it's like 1% of all TRX supply into the balance sheet to just start Treasury Company. And then there's some, there was some questions to how involved Eric Trump was. I think it first came out that he was like actually active in the project, like one of the, you know, leadership team. And then Eric Trump said that he's not. He denied his having that.

• 19:04David Hoffman?

  Oh, he did rule that.

• 19:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like a role in the new firm. He said, "I'm the biggest fan of Tron and love Justin Sun. He's a great friend and an icon in the space. That said, the below is inaccurate. I don't have public involvement in this company."

• 19:16David Hoffman?

  There's been like three things that have come out of the Trump orbit where like the Trump Suns are like, "I do have involvement in this one. I don't have involvement with that one." And they just have to make clarifying statements all the time.

• 19:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's every week. It's honestly, it's been every week since I've gotten back here. This is a, this is a tweet commenting on this effect. "Am I getting this right? Number one, Tron investigated by the SEC for market manipulation. Number two, Justin Sun becomes top holder of Trump and World Liberty Financial. Number three, investigation is dropped. Number four, Trump goes public via reverse merger with Eric Trump taking a role at the company. Crime season is here."

• 19:53David Hoffman?

  Hmm, crime season.

• 19:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Crime. What do you think of this?

• 19:57David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I mean, this is, this is what it costs to get Trump into, into presidency. We have the Genius Act, we have Ross Ulbricht going free. There are some really nice things about the Trump presidency, and then we have this.

• 20:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is Molly White, who's obviously a perma-critic of everything going on in crypto. She's taking log of all of these things, so she had a-

• 20:17David Hoffman?

  I thought this tweet was so weak.

• 20:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  Tell me, tell me about it.

• 20:20David Hoffman?

  I'm usually like able to give Molly the benefit of the doubt on most things. Like, I accept her points at times, like, she's a valuable critic. This one, I thought, was uncharacteristically weak of her. She tweeted out-

• 20:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  Describe what it is.

• 20:33David Hoffman?

  Quid pro quo between cryptocurrency firms, the Trump administration, and the Trump family's crypto ventures. And so she tweets out a picture of a chart, and she lists the company, the benefits that they are getting because of Trump being in office, and then the contributions that they made. So like Cumberland, DRW, Ripple, Coinbase, A16Z, Gemini, Kraken, Circle, Robinhood, Consensus, Binance, Crypto.com are all listed. And they all, she like labeled out all the benefits that they get. Like Circle, the SEC approved the Circle IPO. The Circle's also getting favorable stablecoin regulation with the Genius Act. You know, Cumberland, DRW, SEC enforcement case was dismissed with prejudice. Ripple, SEC enforcement case pending revolution, right? And so all of the benefits that crypto companies have gotten now that Trump is in office.

• 21:16David Hoffman?

  And then there is also Justin Sun, SEC enforcement case, stayed, criminal investigation possibly paused. Like, I just thought, like, she's just using the Biden, the Biden choke point 2.0 oppression of the industry as this benchmark of what ought to have been. And then now that anything different has happened that's positive towards crypto, she is alluding to being a quid pro quo of the crypto industry to the Trump administration, which is just like totally unfair. It's like, you're, the benchmark that she's using is completely unconstitutional.

• 21:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I mean, I guess some of this is, would you say some of this is fair, but most of it's not?

• 21:50David Hoffman?

  The Justin Sun part, which is, it's convenient that she listed him first and then all the other, like Coinbase. So like, how is Circle going public quid pro quo to the Trump administration?

• 22:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, and also you look at kind of the SEC enforcement against Coinbase and, you know, on down Kraken and Robinhood. I mean, that was unjustified in the first place, right? I mean, it's like, that should never have happened. And the SEC and as well as the FDIC was completely weaponized against crypto. And so what choice did some of these crypto companies have? What I hate about this is you're forced to pick a camp, right? And it's like, that's why I feel like everything forces us into, you're the pro crypto or you're against crypto. Either crypto is kind of bribing its way into relevance, or it's, you know, surviving for its life against a brutal government, right?

• 22:39David Hoffman?

  This is a problem with government.

• 22:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  There's no nuance.

• 22:41David Hoffman?

  If you don't pay the government like tax, then you get stamped out as an industry. Crypto is not the first or the second or the third industry to learn this. Every industry just learns that you have to bribe government to make your industry illegal. And so it's not fair for her to single out the crypto industry. This is just the way that things are. You know, Elizabeth Warren came in with a hammer against the big banks, and now the big banks are her biggest donors. I don't see the Molly White tweet about that relationship between big banks and Elizabeth Warren. Like, go tweet about that. You're just criticizing the notion of money in politics, which I'm also a critic of. But you don't get to say that this is a uniquely crypto thing that we are doing. We are just playing the game shoulder to shoulder with all other industries.

• 23:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I will say the Justin Sun thing, that's pretty unique.

• 23:26David Hoffman?

  Yeah, it's really unfortunate that Justin Sun is really fucking all this up for us.

• 23:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  But what do you think of the overall soul of crypto right now, as you kind of like look back? So this is Zach XPT, right? And he is the sheriff of crypto, good guy, white hat, has helped so many in the space. He said, he put out a tweet that this, he basically said this, "The crime super cycle is indeed very real." He's talking about crypto. "Whilst the industry has historically been ripe for abuse, it has noticeably increased since politicians launched meme coins and numerous court cases were dropped, further enabling behavior." He goes on, he talks about the laundering, money laundering that's going on with OTC brokers. He talks about KOLs facing zero repercussions, basically scamming their communities, courts siding with smart contract exploiters, so basically like criminals. Can we fix the

• 24:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  system if the vast majority of people still do not care unless they lose money? There's kind of a feeling of, you know, like some OGs in crypto that were, that were losing, that were losing something, that this, you know, crime season is kind of rotting out the soul. What's your feeling of it?

• 24:28David Hoffman?

  Yeah, it does kind of feel like the Overton window of on-chain crypto markets has drifted farther to crime than like any of the OGs really hoped that it would. And then you have like serious companies, Robinhood, Coinbase, Circle, going public on the public stock market. And like, we're like, oh, we're left with leftovers. And we don't really get any cool valuable tokens. We only, all the tokens that are like, interesting investments are all problem childs. We'll talk about that with the Blockworks Transparency Report Initiative that comes later in the show, because there's the whole idea that like, as crime permeates and becomes normalized, then the whole sector becomes uninvestable. And so tokens are like, becoming uninvestable, which is problematic, because we want tokens to become the new way to issue equity.

• 25:13David Hoffman?

  But if you're just issuing your equity shoulder to shoulder with crime, then like, maybe it's better off to be in the public markets. Like, I think that's a pretty logical train of thought.

• 25:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, have we swung too far on the other side of this, right? It's like, now everything's permitted, and so criminals are coming in. I mean, previously, a year or two ago, it was Operation Choke Point. Nothing was permitted. They were trying to choke up the industry. But now, this is Taylor Monahan, she's saying, "Crypto right now is in a rough spot. It's attracting and retaining more anti-social, selfish, corrupt people, while excluding, demoralizing, and wrecking those who are good faith, cooperative, selfless." Is there an element of that?

• 25:47David Hoffman?

  Yeah. I think people have a hard time like, parsing the good guys from the bad guys in crypto.

• 25:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  My take is, you know, the baloney corkscrew of progress, right? Where sometimes you kind of go too far on one side, and then you go too far on the other. But you're always corkscrewing up into some progress here. I feel like that's what crypto kind of is. We went Operation Choke Point, now we're probably going a little too far in the crime season. We'll balance back out.

• 26:10David Hoffman?

  Yeah, hopefully sooner rather than later. All right, coming up next, we're going to talk about the genius stablecoin bill that the Senate just voted yes on. It is almost done, but we got some hurdles left over. We're going to talk about that. And then JP Morgan, who CEO called Bitcoin a pet rock, and said if he were the government, he would shut it down, is now launching a tokenized deposit token on base. Interesting. We're going to talk about all of that and more. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible, like Uniswap, it's a mobile wallet, it's the best place to do DeFi. Let's go and hear from Uniswap. Uniswap is your gateway to a more efficient DeFi experience. With Uniswap swapping and bridging across 13 chains is simple, fast, and cost-effective, helping you move value wherever, whenever. Thanks to deep liquidity on the Uniswap protocol, you'll enjoy a minimal price impact on every trade.

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• 28:20David Hoffman?

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• 29:02David Hoffman?

  MiniPay. Tokenomics leveled up too. The great Cello Haveting cuts inflation from 2% to 1%, aligning the chain with its ambitious vision 2030. A trillion-dollar on-chain economy where regens, cypherpunks, and degens create prosperity for all. Follow @Cello on X and start building at cello.org today. The Genius Act is passed in the Senate. The vote was 68 to 30, like overwhelming bipartisan support. Happened roughly six weeks after Senator Bill Hagerty, who we just had on the podcast, go listen to that episode, introduced the legislation in the first place. We also got some Trump commentary. The Senate just passed an incredible bill that is going to make America the, all caps, undisputed leader in digital assets. Nobody will do it better. It is pure,

• 29:43David Hoffman?

  all caps, genius. Digital assets are the future and our nation is going to own it. The House will hopefully move lightning fast, pass a clean Genius Act, get it to my desk ASAP, no delays, no add-ons. Trump wants that bill on his desk. He doesn't want the House to add anything because if the House adds anything, then it has to go back to the Senate. So Trump's saying, "House, don't do anything other than vote yes, so I can sign this bill into law," which, bullish, very bullish.

• 30:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Speaking of bullish, this is Secretary Scott Besant, the Treasury Secretary of the US. He said, "Recent reporting projects that stablecoins could grow into a $3.7 trillion market by the end of this decade."

• 30:22David Hoffman?

  Yeah, it's increasing his price targets. That's kind of some bull market top signal of activity right there.

• 30:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's fantastic, coming from a Treasury Secretary. He said, "A thriving stablecoin ecosystem will drive a demand from the private sector for treasuries, which back stablecoins. This demand could lower government borrowing costs and help rein in the national debt." He gets it. He's looking at stablecoin holders and he's saying, "Oh, these are customers. These are people who will buy my bonds when maybe countries won't." He's getting the full picture. This is everything we've been saying. And to have the Treasury Secretary behind it is something else. There's also an interview. I think this is really going to change the conversation. If there's anyone left in government who is saying, "Crypto is bad for the US. Maybe it's bad for the US dollar." This is the Treasury Secretary in response to a reporter who used that line.

• 31:09Speaker 03

  Because crypto, I mean, that seems to be a threat to the dollar, doesn't it?

• 31:14Speaker 04

  I think it's the opposite.

• 31:15Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 31:16Speaker 04

  I think- Stable coins could reinforce dollar supremacy. Because with stable coins, stable coins could end up being one of the largest buyers of US treasuries or keybells.

• 31:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:32Speaker 04

  So all of a sudden, if you are using a stable coin in Nigeria that's backed by the US dollar, you don't actually have to have dollars. It's on your phone, you can transact. So I think there's a very good chance that crypto is actually one of the things that locks in dollar supremacy.

• 31:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 31:54David Hoffman?

  He was so ready for that question.

• 31:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 31:56David Hoffman?

  He was like, I'm so glad you asked.

• 31:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  He's smiling the whole way through. He's, what's interesting about this, you know, the big concern all the way back, the genesis of crypto is that it would be choked off by the world governments and particularly the US. Okay, so if Bitcoin crypto is starting to threaten the US dollar, what's the US, what's the US going to do? It's just going to choke it off. This to me is signal that we have completely neutralized that threat. And this is surprising to a lot of probably people who, you know, back in 2015, if you told them, look, the US is actually going to use crypto rails to export dollar supremacy and they're going to love crypto. That would have been surprising to them. So I feel like we've completely, at least in this cycle, neutralized the, the attack from the US government on crypto. And that's a big win as well.

• 32:43David Hoffman?

  Okay, question, hypothetical question. Democrats get elected next election cycle. Blue House, blue Congress, blue Senate, blue president. How far back does the pendulum swing? Or is crypto like well embedded and Democrats learned their lesson? And they're like, you know what? We're just not touching it. It's worth to let it go.

• 33:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think there's going to be a backlash. I think there is going to be a like a Thor hammer smacked on the head of.

• 33:09David Hoffman?

  Oh, a bad backlash?

• 33:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yes, in certain sectors of crypto, but not all of it. In the, in the next two to four years, it's going to become so embedded that you won't be able to kind of completely.

• 33:19David Hoffman?

  You won't be able to strip it out?

• 33:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  But there will be some sort of backlash, right? It's like, you know, in the state, in the genius bill, there was, they called it, Democrats called it the Trump loophole. All of Congress was not able to issue a stable coin or make profits based on the issuing of a stable coin. No member of Congress could do that, but you know who could? President of the United States.

• 33:37David Hoffman?

  All right. If that's where the backlash goes, that's totally fine. There's things that with Circle going public, and I hope many more crypto companies going public.

• 33:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's entrenched.

• 33:44David Hoffman?

  Something that does cement stablecoin position. And so at least with stablecoins, I don't think there's going to be much blowback.

• 33:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  I agree.

• 33:52David Hoffman?

  Maybe other parts of the market, yeah.

• 33:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, maybe other parts of the market. There are still some threats here. Will this bill pass? That's the question. Polymarket's giving it an 82% chance right now, which is pretty good. I mean, there is some question, though. What does this mean for some established stablecoins? Obviously, this is very bullish for Circle. How about Tether, though? Because Tether is kind of the stepchild of stablecoins, right? It's like offshore. It's got this reputation of maybe like being used criminals and is, you know, a bit maybe nefarious. It's certainly not a domestic asset. So what happens to Tether in this bill?

• 34:25David Hoffman?

  I would say, just kind of reading his body language and some of his answers when we asked him about the Genius Act. Paulo is indifferent. I think Tether is.

• 34:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  That was your take?

• 34:35David Hoffman?

  I think Tether is so large that Paulo is like, I don't care. I'm the 18th largest treasury owner. I am sitting shoulder to shoulder with countries.

• 34:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like I already won?

• 34:46David Hoffman?

  I was the fifth largest treasury purchaser in the last 12 months. I don't care. Like, the Genius Act is interesting to me. I'm going to issue my domestic United States flavor of Tether just to be in that market. But like, I'm so large that I'm bigger than the Genius Act. That was my takeaway from Paulo.

• 35:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  He's just completely unaffected? I can totally see that interpretation. I mean, like mechanically, in the Genius Act, what it means is that if USDC does nothing right now, okay? Within three years, it will be completely banned from the US. So no crypto exchange can list it. All right, no bank can kind of service it. It's out of here. It's out of here. Now, there is an opportunity for Tether to acquire an OCC license. And Paulo told us, yeah, we're planning to do that. And he also told us they're planning to do a domestic onshore US-based stablecoin, too.

• 35:40David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 35:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  So they still want to have, do both and pursue both at the same time. And it seems to me, he thinks that the big use for stablecoins is actually not in the US banking. It's not domestic at all. It's not in the US banking system.

• 35:53David Hoffman?

  It's foreign.

• 35:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's foreign. It's for everybody that doesn't currently have access to a US bank, right? And so he thinks that Tether is best positioned to capitalize on that market, whether it gets through the OCC license under the Genius Act or not.

• 36:10David Hoffman?

  It does kind of buy for cake Circle from Tether in the sense that Circle is for domestic payments and Tether is for foreign like crypto dollars, like a Eurodollar. It is the new Eurodollar market and that's not necessarily for payments, it's for reserves. It's for like a savings vehicle. It's for bank deposits in foreign banks. It's for individual deposits in the Tether bank account on whatever blockchain they use. And so very different outcomes, I think, even though the end up product is kind of the same.

• 36:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  It does strike me, though, that there are some losers on the back of this bill, again, assuming it gets approved. And that's gotta be the visas and Mastercards. That's gotta be the incumbent payment system that charges 3% on every single consumer transaction in the US. That's a tax. I don't know, like, I live in Virginia, the state tax is like 5%, okay? The Mastercard and Visa tax is 3%. It's almost as high as my state, you know, consumption tax, which is absolutely crazy. And it feels like if stablecoins really take off in the way that we think they can, that rent seeking is going to be eroded.

• 37:18David Hoffman?

  Yeah, which is a fundamental promise that the crypto industry started writing in like 2010, 2011. So it's good to finally see that actually kind of show up in reality. Like, Visa, Mastercard stock prices reacting to this is finally indicative of this is actually here. And there's also other news in this roll up that we'll talk about with Shopify and USDC and Base, which is again, just again, going right after these payment networks.

• 37:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  Side stepping the credit cards, right?

• 37:46David Hoffman?

  Base is the new Visa, Shopify is the new endpoint.

• 37:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  You promised to tell us about the JPM coin. So what's this? A stablecoin from JP Morgan?

• 37:54David Hoffman?

  Yeah, not a stablecoin, a tokenized bank deposit. What's the difference? I'm not too sure, but this one is also permissioned. It's like an intra-network for JP Morgan and it's supposed to just be for JP Morgan and his permissioned clients. How a JPMD token is different from a stablecoin at the end of the day? I think we aren't totally sure, but first of all, it's kind of on a public blockchain. It'll be issued on base and for 24/7/365 settlements between JP Morgan accounts. Like, why permissioned? Unsure. I guess is they're just using base as like backend bank account infrastructure for themselves, but using a public blockchain? Doesn't really impact me. I don't really know. What's your take?

• 38:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's interesting, right? So there's this word that JP Morgan has filed a trademark for something called JPMD, okay, which appears to be a stablecoin, right? So that happened. And then also their base Coinbase has announced that JP Morgan put the tokenized deposits, as you said, on-chain, on base, using that as a settlement layer. And that's called JPMD. It's the same JPMD, right? But this is, it's not like a stablecoin because you can't move it from one address to another. It's just for institutions. And so it's on-chain, but it's unclear like why it's on-chain or what you can do with it. It's on-chain and I'm really not sure why JP Morgan is pursuing this rather than the Genius Bill Act

• 39:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  stablecoin strategy, which feels like, okay.

• 39:24David Hoffman?

  You just got the green light to do an actual stablecoin. Just make an actual stablecoin. You are a bank. Go do a stablecoin.

• 39:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Go do it. Now you can now do it, basically. So maybe this is a stepping stone to that. It probably is. That's probably the future. And it's pretty significant because the guy who said like, if I was the US government, I'd kill Bitcoin, I'd ban Bitcoin. Now his bank is issuing a stablecoin on a public blockchain. So more from them, I'm sure.

• 39:50David Hoffman?

  I'll read a quote from Alex Lawrence's newsletter, which goes out today. "It's very possible that this is innovation theater with an announcement timed to benefit from the glowing coverage of stablecoins and not much more than that." Ah. Oof, deadly. All right, coming up next, we're going to talk about all the big Coinbase announcements that came out of their Coinbase State of Crypto event that they held last week. And then also, Kraken launches a token for their Layer 2. And we're going to talk about all this and more, but first, a message from some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. In the wild west of DeFi, stability and innovation are everything, which is why you should check out Frax Finance. The protocol revolutionizing stablecoins, DeFi, and Rolex. The core of Frax Finance is Frax USD, which is backed by BlackRock's Institutional Biddle Fund.

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• 42:09David Hoffman?

  The Ink Foundation, which is the foundation that supports the Ink Layer 2 blockchain, which is the blockchain supported by Kraken, the exchange, will launch its native token, Ink, to bootstrap the marketplace through a liquidity-first strategy. They tweeted out, "Most tokens launch with a vibe and a prayer. Ink is launching with utility. A single token model designed for usage, not speculation, no fluff, no governance theater, just aligned incentives from day one." So what's the token going to do primarily for usage in DeFi? It sounds like it's going to be incentives for TVL in DeFi. They are getting a version of AVE. AVE is deploying onto the Ink network. And so they are going to mint a fixed supply of 1 billion Ink tokens. And there will be an airdrop to early users of the Ink network.

• 42:52David Hoffman?

  So if you've already been on Ink, congratulations, you're probably getting an airdrop. What was your big takeaway? What was your response?

• 42:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  It seems like it's a liquidity mining token, which we've seen before. And so it's unclear what the utility actually is. I mean, zooming out, though. So Coinbase has its Layer 2 base, which is actually massive. 3.4 billion in total value locked at this point. So Kraken has been out for seven months now. All right. And their TVL is only 7 million. So it's like a massive delta there. So it feels like Kraken is struggling maybe with adoption of Ink. And I'm not sure that the Ink token is going to spur that adoption very much. I mean,

• 43:34David Hoffman?

  Do you think this is coming from a place of strength or a strength of weakness? It sounds like it's coming from a place of weakness.

• 43:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's definitely coming from a place of weakness at this point. Maybe it'll help. I mean, token incentives have kind of helped the Unichain bootstrap some liquidity. You definitely need that. But this has to be part of a broader strategy that Kraken needs to deploy to increase the total value locked and the usage of its chain.

• 43:57David Hoffman?

  Another announcement this week comes out of Eigenlayer. They launched Eigencloud. What is Eigencloud? It is basically Eigenlayers as a product. It's the packaging up in this very accessible package to developers. And so it's kind of like AWS, but with all of Eigenlayers services built right into it. And so there's all these different AVSs that build little Eigenlayer, there's a couple of these components. Everything in Eigencloud is just all of that wrapped up so that developers can go access what Eigenlayer sells, which is basically cryptoinomic security, trust, you know, slashable trust. And so that got launched this week. That also came with an announcement of a $70 million token investment, token purchase from A16Z.

• 44:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  I listened to your podcast with Sriram. The whole concept was like, it's a verifiable compute, right?

• 44:43David Hoffman?

  Yep.

• 44:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's like AWS for verifiable compute. I still found it hard to wrap my head around.

• 44:48David Hoffman?

  It's hard to imagine.

• 44:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Verifiable, yeah.

• 44:50David Hoffman?

  It's hard to imagine, yeah.

• 44:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  I understand why verifiable compute is important for blockchains because it's all about property rights and assets. And you need to know that the supply is what it says it is. And I need to know your address has received my funds. And I need to know how much, like, it's that verifiable compute in the asset property registry space, like, I understand that now. I can't really imagine use cases beyond that. And maybe that's a limitation that I have in my thinking.

• 45:18David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I think if you are like a Eigenlayer bear or a bull, it really rests on like how easy it is to imagine that future. And from the bullish side, it's like, well, yeah, it's because this is a net new thing. There's no comparable to really illustrate what Eigenlayer, Eigencloud is trying to do. But there are some things that you can kind of like understand. Like, say, for example, we wanted to govern over something, like a company, a very large company, using an AI LLM. And we needed to have some assurance that the computation of that LLM is done by the right code. And there isn't like a man in the middle attack or any other sort of just like spoofing to verify that computation. And so, yeah, I think whether you're an Eigenlayer player or a bull kind of rests on like, how easy

• 46:00David Hoffman?

  is it to produce the future that Eigenlayer wants to produce? And, you know, the bullish side of things will say, well, this is Eigenlayer is a net new thing. There is no comparable. And that's why it's hard to imagine. And Sriram gave a few examples. And I could probably list off a bunch of examples. And it would still kind of just like, kind of feel the blind men feel the elephant. But now, the thing is, is like, now this access to what Eigenlayer is selling is as easy as a developer going to AWS and getting like an S1 bucket or something like that. And so, whereas Eigenlayer and the smart contracts and like Eigencompute and all that kind of thing that are like, kind of these components inside of a car, well, now we have like the actual product, the actual car. And so you don't have to actually understand how a carburetor works to drive the car. And we just now have the fully seam stitched together package.

• 46:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  And maybe the Eigentoken will join what Blockworks has just put out, which is the Blockworks Token Transparency Framework. So this is a 40-point grading rubric, basically on token. It's like token supply, various stats, who holds what, and it's self-reported. This is almost not, I shouldn't say what the SEC should be doing in crypto, but there's an element of it. It's kind of ground-up opt-in regulation.

• 47:09David Hoffman?

  Layer 2B for token disclosures, token transparency.

• 47:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's a great take. That's exactly what it is. And I am very hopeful that our tokens adopt this type of a standard. And it's great that Blockworks is propagating this and putting it out there.

• 47:22David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so there's 18 different criteria with three points that you can score per criteria. So there's like supply schedules, market maker agreements. Like if you've signed a deal with a market maker, that deal is made public, then you get a point. Exchange listing agreements, these are all trying to make these things public so that the average investor can go look at what the actual details of the market maker are. And there's also things like, well, is there equity token misalignment like Uniswap Labs? Or is it more like Morpho where there is no equity, there's just a token, things like this. And this was all downstream of some effort from Felipe, who we've had on as a guest, and his notion of like lemon markets. This is what I brought up earlier, where like, well, if we have a bunch of markets,

• 48:03David Hoffman?

  if a bunch of tokens, for example, say 50% of the tokens that are potentially investable are kind of shitty because of bad disclosures, bad market maker agreements. Well, it really taints the remaining 50 that are potentially good. And so we are trying to just illuminate, give people who have put their best foot forward with their token a way to advertise the fact that they have put their best foot forward.

• 48:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  Transparency.

• 48:28David Hoffman?

  There's a transparency, yeah. There's a page on Blockworks where you can go look at the tokens that have gone through this report. I think there's like six of them right now. Morpho is one of them, Stride is one of them. And so the call to action here is if you have issued a token and you would like to flex your transparency and your good intentions, the Blocksworks Transparency Report is a place to do that. And then also, in theory, like you can imagine if there was like 100 tokens that have gone through this process, you can imagine like a Blockworks version of CoinGecko that only lists tokens that have gone through the transparency report. And so it's kind of like a trusted place to get token information.

• 49:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, and I think that the good tokens will go do this, right?

• 49:05David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 49:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Because what do they have to lose?

• 49:06David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 49:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  We're not afraid of transparency. And so you get a market double format on that, too. David, there was some major Coinbase product announcements here recently. Can you rattle a few of them off?

• 49:16David Hoffman?

  Yeah, the Coinbase One Credit Card, a metal American Express card launching in the fall of this year. 4% Bitcoin cash back, 4% if you have enough assets on your Coinbase account. And then some boosted USCC yields as well. So Credit Card, perpetual futures, CFTC compliant perps for United States traders.

• 49:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's a first, right?

• 49:37David Hoffman?

  Yes, perps onshore, perps is a first, is a very big deal. So they are going after, of course, what is Hyperliquid's non-KYC volume. In-app access to DEXs. So base DEXs are going to be baked into the main application. That's pretty cool. Coinbase Business, a small, medium enterprise suite for global pay. Custodian and trading services, API automation, USCC rewards. And then Shopify tie-in. So merchants can accept USCC on base with 1% cash back straight into Shopify.

• 50:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, that was a big deal, that Shopify thing, right? Shopify is a $142 billion volume company and they've got 5.5 million merchants. And one of the things Coinbase rolled out, too, is this concept with Shopify of Commerce Payments Protocol. So one of the problems with crypto, I guess, when you compare it to a network like Visa, is that the payments are immutable, okay? And this is, this is great for a lot of things, but for every day, like you're buying a coffee, you just want to refund, I don't know, you, like you, there's some fraud, there's, you want to cancel something. Credit cards are way better than just an immutable blockchain. So Coinbase has provided a service in Coinbase Commerce that's deployed on base

• 50:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  to just use a smart contract as escrow. So think of it as like there's a step in between if I send a merchant some funds, I'm paying with stable coins on base, then the money actually goes in a smart contract escrow. It's like money in the lockbox, holds the cash. So I'm not actually sending it, I'm just signing approval of it, right? And then, once the merchant ships their product, maybe does some fraud detection or something to that effect, then, then the funds are released by the escrow. And in the meanwhile, both sides can kind of cancel the transaction. And if the transaction is canceled, nothing leaves my wallet in the first place. So it's basically giving you some of the same capability that credit card networks have had.

• 51:34David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 51:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Which is like, their, their big feature is like, we're not immutable. You can, you know, we got fraud detection. We can refund if there's like something that needs to be refunded. We can cancel. And now you can do that on crypto too. So you really see Coinbase leveling up payments and that meshing well with, with stablecoins and doing that in a programmable way, completely on-chain.

• 51:55David Hoffman?

  There was one announcement that was not in the Coinbase State of Crypto Summit, but was more kind of behind the scenes. This was reported on Reuters. Coinbase seeks SEC approval for on-chain stocks. So they want to create, if it's on-chain, I'm assuming it's a token. They want to tokenize stocks or support tokenized stocks. Maybe they don't want to do the tokenization themselves, but they want those things. And they're asking the SEC for either a no-action letter or a regulatory exemption so that they can do tokenize stocks, you would presume, on-base. And so, just reading between the lines, we have a Coinbase One credit card, perpetual futures, an in-app Dex Shopify tie-in, and then also approval for on-chain stocks. Coinbase is going for a financial super app.

• 52:41David Hoffman?

  And then you know who else is also going for? All-on-chain, yeah. You know who else is going for a financial super app? Robinhood, which has many of these things. They have stocks, they have the credit card. They're, they're going for banking services. The Robinhood banking announcement, I think banking comes in like Q3 or Q4. And then Robinhood, I don't know if they're doing this on purpose, but Coinbase had their State of Crypto Summit and then Robinhood has their big crypto day at ECC in a couple of weeks, which they've been hyping up.

• 53:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Interesting.

• 53:05David Hoffman?

  In a very big way. And so, yeah, like I'm just seeing these two financial.

• 53:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Clash of the Titans.

• 53:11David Hoffman?

  Clash of the Titans. I mean, Titans in the grand scheme of things, like they're both-ish $70 billion right now. So like, small in the grand scheme of things, but.

• 53:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, it's similar market cap.

• 53:21David Hoffman?

  Similar market cap, yeah. Yeah, yeah, well Coinbase had a 15% day last trading day. It's, it's Juneteenth, so the markets are closed today. So like Coinbase took a little bit of a lead, but I think the coin versus hood story is going to be a huge story. Because imagine if you are a zoomer, even a millennial, you're coming of age, you're, you know, finally getting some wealth, what are you going to use?

• 53:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's one of those two.

• 53:43David Hoffman?

  TDM Air Trade? You're gonna use Fidelity? Charles Schwab?

• 53:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 53:47David Hoffman?

  No, you're gonna use Coinbase or Robinhood? You're gonna do one of those two things.

• 53:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, and Coinbase doesn't have stocks, but they want stocks. Robinhood has just started in the crypto. They want to be more unchained, so they're kind of converging, aren't they?

• 53:59David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 53:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  I do wonder at ETH CC, do you think Robin is gonna roll out like a layer two?

• 54:04David Hoffman?

  I think that would be the easy guess.

• 54:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 54:07David Hoffman?

  I think that'd be the easy guess.

• 54:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Maybe it's a stablecoin, David. Get some of that Circle stablecoin premium. You talk about that? You know, it wasn't all good news for Coinbase, let's say, or good press. There was also this thing, a little thing of the US Army Parade. Did you see this?

• 54:20David Hoffman?

  Dude.

• 54:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  This went mainstream, so of course, there was on Flag Day, I believe. This was Saturday. I was not watching the parade. It was a big parade. It was also Trump's birthday, was it not? In Washington DC. It was a military parade. I've never seen one of these in the US.

• 54:35David Hoffman?

  Never seen a United States military parade before, no.

• 54:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, first time for everything, I guess. So we saw a military parade. What was surprising to me in looking at this was it was sponsored by, in part by Coinbase. Coinbase was not the only sponsor, but you saw a lot of images like this, like two big tanks, the whole US Army kind of platform and Coinbase branding. And so the crypto world kind of reacted to this. I saw some good reactions to it, some positive reactions. We'll get to that. Some Coinbase employees with positive reactions.

• 55:08David Hoffman?

  Coinbase employees thought this was sick.

• 55:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, a lot of negative reactions. What was kind of the negative reactions that you saw?

• 55:16David Hoffman?

  I mean, generally that this is completely antithetical to what crypto was supposed to be.

• 55:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 55:21David Hoffman?

  Which I very much resonate with. Like, the cool thing about Bitcoin proof of work and Ethereum proof of stake is that we can create a money without a military. And so the notion of a crypto company sponsoring a military is like, wait, what? Many people I think got disillusioned because, and I can resonate with this, like, I'm here for the counterculture. I'm here for like the revolution that is antagonistic to nation-state powers and nation-state overreach. And I think the military is the symbol of like nation-state overreach, the reason why it can't overreach in the first place. Did you ever read, one of my favorite OG articles in the space is a most peaceful revolution from Nick Carter. It's a 2019 piece. Do you remember that one?

• 56:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  I do. Yeah, yeah. What was the, what was the theme of that?

• 56:03David Hoffman?

  Basically, the TLDR is that like as nation-state fiat just prints and, you know, people lose their savings in fiat, they're going to use Bitcoin as a savings vehicle, and that's going to force governments to be more fiscally responsible because it's going to collapse down to the value of the services that governments can provide their citizens. It's going to be the value of their fiat. And so they're going to not be able to support their armies if their armies-

• 56:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Sovereign individual type of thesis, right?

• 56:28David Hoffman?

  Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's just like completely antagonistic to just sponsor the army.

• 56:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, here's the, the other side of this, though. It's Coinbase is, I mean, members of the army onboard to crypto. What are they going to use? Maybe there's some, you know, affiliation here. Maybe there's some, you know, eyeballs on this that wouldn't be otherwise. This is all part of crypto going mainstream in that, in that story. And Victor Bunin says, he was very excited about it. He said, hell yeah, this is great. The men and women defending our nation and our way of life deserve our culture and respect. And this is just Coinbase, you know, giving respect to the military.

• 57:01David Hoffman?

  Well, Victor Bunin is the target market for this. As a Coinbase employee who was a huge Trump fan, like, of course Victor Bunin would be like, I love this. This was great.

• 57:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. Well, there you go. I mean, maybe alienating some crypto OGs, but maybe picking up some eyeballs elsewhere. David, Roman Storm is short on his legal defense. What's the update here?

• 57:21David Hoffman?

  Uh, yeah. So the Ethereum Foundation donated $1.25 million matching fund to Roman Storm. First, he needs more money because his court case is coming up very, very fast July 14th in New York. And he is short $750,000. And so the crypto, we've raised a decent amount of money for Roman Storm. Remember, if Roman Storm wins his case, the precedent that open source- Software developers can't go to jail is set in. And we can just feel good about the fact that we protected one of our own. And so the big call to action is that the EF is matching your donations. So you donate $1, the EF donates another dollar. And then we need to get Roman Sorum 750,000 more dollars so we can win his case. Make sure he doesn't go to jail for writing open source software.

• 58:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, big encouragement. It was great to see the EF step up and go do this. And this is the second time they donated, so absolutely huge. Well, that's it. We got to wrap it up. David, I've got a question for you in the midst of stablecoin summer. It's a question about crypto in general. I saw this tweet from Jason Choi. He said this, "The irony is not lost on me that crypto went from let's replace the banks to let's provide an alternative to fiat to let's strengthen US dollar dominance." What's your take on this overall with our excitement over stablecoins? Going mainstream, all of these things. Is crypto starting to lose the plot as to why we're here? I mean, aren't we here to go bankless?

• 58:45David Hoffman?

  I don't know if it, so Jason, he brands this as crypto went from let's replace banks to let's provide an alternative fiat to let's strengthen the United States dollar dominance. It's not either or to me. It's yes and. And crypto has always been about replacing banks. It's always been about providing alternative to fiat. And now with the innovation of stablecoins, we're like, actually, we can do all of these things. It's a yes and. So we're going to strengthen the United States dollar dominance for those who want that. We're going to provide an alternative to fiat for those who want that. And for those who want it, they can replace banks. I think it's all of these things together.

• 59:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  I agree. I think stablecoins are a big step towards that, actually. I mean, the banks don't like it. We no longer need their savings accounts, right? We can keep the stablecoins in our non-custodial wallets. All we need is the yield and hopefully that comes at some point. So we are making progress on this. Got to end with this, guys. Of course, you know, none of this has been financial advice. Crypto is risky. You could lose what you put in, but we're headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.