177: What To Do When You Fail. Dealing w/ Betrayal From a Bro. Motivation: Customers VS Money. Advice for New Leaders.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:14:13 - Dealing with a pessimistic boss. 0:19:34 - Being the youngest leader in your company dealing with older experienced team. 0:27:19 - What to do when people treat you like a doormat. 0:38:13 - Business: Customers VS Money. 0:42:38 - Family VS Work. 0:50:08 - Dealing with NOT being able to be a SEAL/Marine/SOF. 0:57:46 - Dealing with "giving up / Quitting" in major circumstances in the past. BUDS, etc. 1:03:56 - Dealing Betrayal from someone close to you. 1:18:08 - How to discipline key players without messing up morale. 1:20:54 - What to do when you FAIL. 1:23:23 - Support: How to stay on THE PATH. 1:47:06 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 177 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:10Jocko Willink?

  A few days later, when I walked downstairs to go work out, I saw Uncle Jake's bag packed up, sitting by the door. That's when it hit me. The summer was almost over and Uncle Jake was leaving again. I went out to the garage to work out and Uncle Jake was already there.

• 0:32Jocko Willink?

  "Last workout with me for the summer," he said with a smile. "I can't believe it's over already. Summer always goes by so fast," I told him.

• 0:42Jocko Willink?

  "Yes, it does," Uncle Jake said quietly. "And life does the same thing."

• 0:49Jocko Willink?

  I wasn't sure what Uncle Jake meant by that, so I asked, "What?" "You'll see, Mark," he said. "Life goes by quickly, like a summer day." "It never seems that way when you're young, but when you get a little older, you'll see, life goes by fast. So don't waste any time. You don't get a second chance."

• 1:14Jocko Willink?

  Uncle Jake stood for a minute, looking at me with a serious face. Then he gave me a little smile and said, "Speaking of wasting time, let's stop wasting time and get this workout done." He jumped up on the pull-up bar, grabbed hold, and started knocking them out.

• 1:33Jocko Willink?

  And that is a little excerpt from the last chapter in a new book, the latest addition in the series Way of the Warrior Could Kid, Book Three. The subtitle of the book is Where There Is A Will.

• 1:51Jocko Willink?

  And I wrote that part of the book because I wanted to let kids know as early as possible that that is the truth. That life goes by like a summer day. And that life is short. And if you remember when you were a kid and summer, you get out of school for the summer and it seems like you have all the time in the world. It seems like summer vacation is going to last forever. And then all of a sudden it's blurred. You look up and as soon as summer vacation has started, all of a sudden it's over.

• 2:34Jocko Willink?

  And that's what I remember about summers. And that's the truth. And that's what life is like. About a year and a half ago, September 29th, 2017. And September 29th is St. Michael's Day. That's the day that Mikey Monsor was killed in Ramadi in 2006. So on September 29th, 2017, I woke up and I was thinking about that. And I was thinking about Mikey and later that day, I think I was actually heading up to Rosecrans National Cemetery where Mikey

• 3:16Jocko Willink?

  is buried and I was going to go and visit Mikey's grave. And while I was on my way up there, I got a call and I found out that one of my mentors, one of the guys that raised me in the SEAL Teams, a guy named Master Chief Mike Fackerty, he had died. And he had been in a pretty hardcore battle with lung cancer, even though he was a nonsmoker, even though he was a triathlete, even though he worked out all the time. He got this form of lung cancer and originally the doctors told him he was going to live for six months.

• 4:00Jocko Willink?

  But that was in, I think, 2012. He had retired in 2001.

• 4:08Jocko Willink?

  And I sitting there thinking about faculty and actually BTF Tony talked about him, called him FAC when he was on the podcast, because we all called him FAC. But I remembered just a bunch of different things about FAC. And one of the things that I remembered was I had come back from my third deployment. So this is in the 90s, back in the day. And I had done my third deployment and I had been moved into the training department at SEAL Team One. So instead of doing a workup and going on deployment, the way the teams used to be set up, you would, you would go into training cell and the team trained itself. The, the training department

• 4:51Jocko Willink?

  at SEAL Team One trained the platoons at SEAL Team One. Later, it became that we had a big centralized training command. That's what I ran before I got out, before I retired, I ran that, the trade at on the west coast. But it used to be each team had their own training cell. And that's how you would train platoons to get ready for their deployments. And of course, nobody really wanted to be in training cell because it meant you couldn't go on deployment. And that's why you join the SEAL teams is to go on deployment. And for whatever reason, we, and a bunch of us from my platoon that I'd gone through BUDs with, a bunch of guys, we'd all done three platoons, they kind of, we all kind of got thrown into training

• 5:33Jocko Willink?

  cell at the same time. And we'd been in there for a couple of days. I mean, maybe less than a week. We'd come back from deployment, we'd get put into training cell. And I kind of forget what happened, but a couple of guys that were getting ready to deploy got hurt. In fact, it might have been guys had gotten hurt as soon as they got over there, or maybe they didn't go on deployment. The guys that went and replaced us, all of a sudden, they needed a couple of guys. And that quarters in the morning, that's when

• 6:02Jocko Willink?

  At SEAL Team One, they used to have quarters in the morning where you all stand up and line up, sort of like your typical military formation. Everyone would kind of line up and buy a platoon and the platoons would all report in. That was an old school Team One deal right there.

• 6:19Jocko Willink?

  And then if there was any important announcements to make, then the announcements would get made and then everyone would go about their day. Well, the announcement that got made that morning was, "Hey, we need two guys to go on deployment. Is there anyone here that feels like going on deployment or can go on deployment?" And of course, it's a big deal, right? To just pick up and go and leave for six months. And it was actually my roommate at the time, who had been my roommate, who I went through BUDs with and who I did three platoons with. I went through SEAL tactical training with him. And we were actually roommates that entire

• 7:00Jocko Willink?

  time, so we were tight. He was my brother. And when they asked this question of, "Hey, is there anybody here that can go on deployment like tomorrow or the next day?" And basically out of the whole team, it was him and me. We raised our hands, said, "Yeah, hey, we'll go." Because at that time, you know, we were just single team guys. We didn't have anything else. We literally had nothing else. You could put our whole world into two cruise boxes and we could ship anywhere in the world. We didn't care. We had no attachments. We didn't care about anything. So of course, we raised our hands. And as soon as our hands went up, Master Chief Fackety gave us a glare because he was the guy that was in charge of training.

• 7:42Jocko Willink?

  So, so he gave us a glare and quarters ended and he goes, he said, "Hey, why don't you guys come upstairs and talk to me real quick?" And I was thinking, "Okay, we must have done something wrong." And sometimes you didn't know what you did wrong, but I- Me and my buddy, we figured we'd done something wrong. So we went up there. And actually, actually now that I think about it, he brought us into the chief's mess. And we were like E4s or E5s at the time. And so going, getting pulled into the chief's mess. I'd never been in there before. And I was like scared thinking, what did I do? I thought I did something wrong. I thought that I left a trail of some crime I'd committed and now we're getting busted. And we get up there and basically he reamed us out.

• 8:27Jocko Willink?

  And he says, listen, you guys need to be in training cell. And he was making great points. I didn't recognize that time. He said, look, if you want to be professionals, if this is where you're going to learn a lot, we need good guys to be teaching the rest of the platoons. That's why you're in here. You're not going on deployment. Shut up. And I'm pulling your names out of the hat and they'll find two other people that can go. We'll send some new guys over there. It doesn't matter. So that's what it was. That was this little story. It was funny because you know, we were. It was just funny from multiple reasons when I thought back about it, just the fact that you're in a point in your life. I think I was probably like 23 or 24 years old. And just, just think about right now, if someone says, hey, can you just leave for six months tomorrow? I mean, there's not too many people that can just pull up and do that.

• 9:13Jocko Willink?

  So there's that, there's the fact that, you know, faculty was bringing us into the chief's mess and we were all nervous about that. And then the fact that, you know, faculty, what he was actually doing was trying to look out for us and trying to look out for our careers and trying to look out for the SEAL team. He was trying to do the right thing. And it was, was one of those, one of those little stories. And there's just all these little stories like that, that, that make up that whole era of my life. That whole time as a young enlisted guy at SEAL Team One, it's this whole bunch of memories.

• 9:50Jocko Willink?

  And when he died, I got this feeling that those memories, those, those days are over, like they're gone.

• 10:07Jocko Willink?

  Because, at least partially, because when Fak was around, like, part of those memories are Fak's memories. Like, only he could tell us what he was thinking at that time. And when he dies, when he died, then those memories are gone.

• 10:24Jocko Willink?

  And I can't ask him about them. I can't go and have a beer with him and talk about that time and hear his side of it. Like, no, they're not here. They're gone.

• 10:41Jocko Willink?

  And

• 10:44Jocko Willink?

  as I was, you know, again, going up to see Mikey Monsour at Rosecrans, and continue to think about that and thinking about the memories that Mikey had and

• 10:59Jocko Willink?

  how those are gone.

• 11:04Jocko Willink?

  But I didn't have too much time to dig into those thoughts because the next morning, September 30th, 2017, that's when I got word that the Delta Platoon commander, my brother Seth Stone, had died as well.

• 11:25Jocko Willink?

  And

• 11:27Jocko Willink?

  all kinds of memories

• 11:33Jocko Willink?

  died with him. I mean, I got my half of them, but it's half. It's incomplete conversations and jokes and guitar jams. And then on top of those, I'd get little... Seth was incredibly smart, and he'd give me little ideas, little thoughts.

• 12:00Jocko Willink?

  But only the beginning of them, because there's millions of things to talk about, and you think you got your whole life to to consider those things.

• 12:10Jocko Willink?

  But you don't.

• 12:14Jocko Willink?

  And I get that we can try and talk about them, or we can try and write them down, and we can do everything in our power to

• 12:25Jocko Willink?

  to try and hang on to those things.

• 12:31Jocko Willink?

  But the fact of the matter is, you can't. You can't preserve them in their true form.

• 12:45Jocko Willink?

  It's just gone.

• 12:55Jocko Willink?

  And as I

• 12:58Jocko Willink?

  thought about that, and as I continue to think about that and try and figure out,

• 13:05Jocko Willink?

  what can we do?

• 13:09Jocko Willink?

  If we can't preserve these memories, then what can we do?

• 13:21Jocko Willink?

  And I think

• 13:24Jocko Willink?

  the best thing that we can do is try and make more.

• 13:32Jocko Willink?

  Try and make more.

• 13:36Jocko Willink?

  Make more memories.

• 13:41Jocko Willink?

  So

• 13:44Jocko Willink?

  so keep in mind what Uncle Jake said.

• 13:50Jocko Willink?

  Life goes by like a summer day.

• 13:55Jocko Willink?

  So you better take advantage of it.

• 13:59Jocko Willink?

  And you best make yourself some memories along the way.

• 14:10Jocko Willink?

  And with that,

• 14:13Jocko Willink?

  Echo.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:14Jocko Willink?

  It's been a little while since we

• 14:17Jocko Willink?

  did some Q and A.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 14:19Jocko Willink?

  What do you got?

• 14:21Speaker 01

  We've got some questions from the interwebs. Alright, we'll go into it. First question. What do you do when the boss always says we can't, but doesn't offer logical and reasonable alternatives to make positive forward changes? Should one just do what they think is best and not listen to the boss?

• 14:40Jocko Willink?

  Uh, okay. First of all, what we want to do is we want to support the boss.

• 14:46Jocko Willink?

  We want to build a relationship with the boss. What's the best way to support the boss? Which the best way to build a relationship is to be a performer. Be a performer inside the box, right? That the boss has said, you can't do this, you can't do that. Cool, we're going to do the best we can inside the box. And once you do that, once you, once you actually, once you actually are a performer, then you have leverage. Then you can actually talk about a different way of doing things. You can bring up a legitimate idea to the boss and they may, well, they have a better chance of listening to you. So that's what you gotta do. You gotta play the game a little bit. You gotta, you gotta become a performer.

• 15:28Jocko Willink?

  You gotta do what it is, the way they want it done to the best of your ability. Be successful with it. And then, once you've built up some clout and some relationship and maybe a little political capital, then you can present a new idea. And when you present the new idea, have the facts lined up. Don't go in there half cocked.

• 15:52Jocko Willink?

  And present your idea and hopefully it gets cleared. Now, that's one, that's section A. Section B is, do you gotta make things happen sometimes? Yep. And depending on how, like, it's that whole thing of

• 16:09Jocko Willink?

  it's better to beg forgiveness than ask for permission. That's a, that's a, it's, it's, it's a, it's a tool. It's definitely a tool. If you abuse it, you're going to get crushed. If it's one of those things where the, the boss has told you not to do something and you decide, well, I'm going to do it anyways and I'll just beg for forgiveness. They actually told you not to do it. That's not where you're supposed to use that tool. That's just, that's just, that's just unsat, right? Unsat. If it's something where, well, I kinda suspect that the boss might not want it this way, but you know what? Chances are it's going to go in my direction and chances are it's going to be beneficial. And chances are the boss might not even found out.

• 16:51Jocko Willink?

  And if the boss does find out, this isn't something that they've ever declared hostile on, right? So you'll be okay in that situation to.

• 17:02Jocko Willink?

  To beg for forgiveness, but don't abuse that tool. And then what you do is you start, if when you're inside the, hey, I'm going to beg for forgiveness, then you can start actually doing something and developing a standard operating procedure that makes sense. And then once you get it solidified, you go to the boss and say, hey, boss, we've been doing this a different way. I want to let you know, I want to show you what we've been doing. Cause we, you know, you know, boss, we never really had a specific way of getting this done. And I know some other people did it like this and some people did it like that. We came up with a methodology. I actually wrote the whole thing out for you. So you can see exactly what we're doing. Boom. Who's going to say no to that? Plus it's been successful 80 times. Boom. We're good. So, so that's what you want to do. That's pretty, pretty straightforward. Don't, don't just straight disobey the boss unless the boss is telling you do something

• 17:46Jocko Willink?

  that's going to get someone killed or is illegal or whatever. But if they're just have a different idea or something, just go with it. Execute it. Become a good performer. And then, once you have that relationship built, you'll have all kinds of influence over your boss. I always had crazy influence over my bosses. I don't want to sound, I don't say in an arrogant way. It wasn't like I was manipulating my bosses, but my bosses, like I was honest with my bosses and they, I did good work. And so when I said, hey, boss, is, are we sure we should do it this way? They'd be like, well, what do you think? And I'd say, well, here's what I think. And then we'd get shit done. So, pretty straightforward.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:22Jocko Willink?

  Pretty straightforward.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, that asking for forgiveness thing.

• 18:25Jocko Willink?

  It's a risky move. It's not a risky move. Sometimes it's a great, great move.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you kind of like how you said, like, don't abuse it where, you know, there's, there's levels to it, where there's like little things.

• 18:35Jocko Willink?

  Thirty-two levels?

• 18:39Speaker 01

  So like if you, if there's one that's like how you said, like, he told you not to do something. And this goes for like anyone, like you're, anyone you're dealing with, like even your friends kind of thing, you know, where if they, if you know for a fact that they don't want you to do it. So that's why you'd prefer not to ask for permission because you know they're going to say no, but you know, it's like, bro, you shouldn't do that. And you know that. But if it's the kind where it's like, hmm, I can see why he'd want to do it maybe this way, or maybe not even necessarily want to do this way, because maybe he doesn't see the benefits that we see right now, but, and he's close minded. He's, you know, he has that reputation. So. Let's let's sort of do it. You said successfully, you know, kind of thing. So and then that's on the other side of the spectrum, you know? But some people, man, they'll just like take it to level five or whatever and be like, oh yeah, they're gonna hate this.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  But it's better to ask for forgiveness and permission because that's a guaranteed no and forgiveness, at least I can give. But Brian, you're gonna damage the relationship if you do that kind of stuff.

• 19:30Jocko Willink?

  Then you're gonna get tightened down on.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're like a step backwards. Oh, yeah, man. It's true.

• 19:35Jocko Willink?

  Don't don't let that happen. Don't let that happen.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  I'm the youngest leader in my firm's history. I try and implement extreme ownership and default aggressiveness in my team. Being so young, some of my elder subordinates sometimes dismiss my directives. How do I lead those people effectively?

• 19:56Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so. I actually hate when I get this question. Or questions like this because it it means that I've screwed up. That's what it means. I don't like to screw up, but when I see a question like this. It means that somebody has misinterpreted the message a little bit. They haven't read the dichotomy of leadership for sure. In my opinion, because if you read the dichotomy of leadership, you'll see that extreme ownership and default aggressive are supposed to be balanced. And so that's what's going on here. You got someone that's like, you know what? I'm gonna take extreme ownership. Hey, we're doing this my way. This I'm the boss. I'm a leader. And that's just horrible and everyone hates you. So, bro. You're young. They don't hate you because you're young.

• 20:41Jocko Willink?

  They're not mad at you because you're inexperienced. They don't dismiss you because um because you are a decade younger than them. That's not why it's happening. It's happening because.

• 20:54Jocko Willink?

  You are lacking humility. You haven't built up any relationship with these people. You haven't built up any leadership capital with them. You haven't asked them how they think they should do things. You haven't asked them what they've been doing for the last 22 years while you were going to middle school, right? So come in, be humble. The the best way to gain respect from people, and this is what's hard to do. This is what's hard to understand. You want people to respect you? Ask them a question. Listen to what they have to say. Listen to their opinion. If they come up with a good plan, use their plan. The worst way to gain respect from people is to go in and demand respect from people is to go in and say, I'm, I'm implementing default aggressive. You've not heard of that? You've never read Extreme Ownership, have you?

• 21:38Jocko Willink?

  I'll tell you what, that's the way we're doing it here. I'll get you a copy so you can read up and get on board with my program. These are all bad. So I'm not trying to say you sound just like that, but you might sound something like that. You don't need to be too far off that. So appreciate that you're getting after it. But what you need to get after more is some balance. Be humble, listen to the team, listen to what they have to say, ask for their input. Follow their input when you can. That's a little black belt move. It's a little black belt, it's actually a blue belt move. But blue belt, purple belt move, like, hey, my team gives me input, I listen to them. We actually, you know, hey Echo, how do you think we should, I think we should attack this target from the north. Okay, sounds good. Why don't we roll with that? That's a blue belt move, man.

• 22:22Jocko Willink?

  What's a, what's a white belt move? Negative. No, the white belt move is like, hey Echo, we're doing this, we're attacking this target from the south. You got any questions? And you're like, well, I think I could, from the north might be a little bit better. That might be what you think, but that's not what we're doing.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Plus I'm in charge.

• 22:38Jocko Willink?

  Cause I got ownership of this whole thing. And I'm, I'm default aggressive. So do what I said. So don't be that guy, man. Try and back off a little bit. Try and form, as a leader, you should be looking at like, one of your primary goals. If not your primary goal, is to form a relationship with your team, with the people on your team. So get it done.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  I remember in Jiu Jitsu one time Greg McIntyre, Greg Train, yes. He, uh, Greg Train, he, uh, he was teaching a move and the move that he was teaching, he, uh, apparently got from me.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  And so he was teaching this move or whatever and, uh, you know, I was sitting there, we're all, and he was teaching, he thought, he thought he had taught it good, taught it way better than I could teach, like way better. In fact, he taught it, I simply probably could not teach this move. And he, uh, and after he was done, he was like, hey Echo does this move really good to the class. Echo does, Echo, do you have anything to add to them? And I was like, oh, I no, I don't, I don't remember if I did. I don't think I did. But just that feeling, you know, he included me in it, you know, man, it was so empowering, you know? Even though it was, you know, in, in his mind and I actually thinking back and in my mind like that, that was kind of my move, you know?

• 23:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. What move was it?

• 23:53Speaker 01

  It was a, it was a guard pass move.

• 23:55Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  The one I always do to you.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Depends on what you mean by always, but the, yeah, but nonetheless, like just how you say, like how you ask their input kind of thing. It's like you include them in the thing and just that.

• 24:07Jocko Willink?

  It's not just asking it. It's actually receiving it and implementing it. That's, that's the, that's the, that's the closure of the move.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  Man, yeah.

• 24:15Jocko Willink?

  That's the closure of the move.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Right. Talk about like a feeling and granted me and Greg are good friends anyway, but I'm just saying like, you can imagine that situation, how that, how anyone would feel when you, especially if you're older than this little young buck. Who does he think he is? And then he comes to you, you're like, oh, hell yeah. Okay. This guy knows like, you know, we can, we can do this together. You know, you really get that feeling. I would imagine anyway.

• 24:36Jocko Willink?

  That's what you want to do, Mr. Youngest Leader in your firm's history.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  Dan, congrats on that though.

• 24:41Jocko Willink?

  Congrats on it. Hey, you're getting after it. What got you there may not get you to the next level. What got you there might've been like being aggressive and making things happen and stepping up. That's cool. But if you piss off everyone in your department, that's not going to work out good for you. They'll start to undermine you. They'll sabotage you. So you gotta be careful.

• 25:01Jocko Willink?

  Check. I mean, okay. Is there a possibility that everyone in the department, you got put in there to straighten things out? That's a different question. That's a different question. Let me tell you something else. When you're getting, when people are dismissing what you're saying, that's a horrible sign. One of the leadership books that we covered, the rule was don't give commands that you, that, that aren't going to be followed. Cause every time you give a command that, that you know, isn't going to be followed. It's not going to work out good for you. It's reinforcing the fact that no one needs to listen to you. So, don't, don't be giving orders that are being dismissed. If somebody doesn't do something, you go, hey, man, I know that I might have come across a little wrong when I was talking to you about, you know, getting this done, this part, this part of this task done.

• 25:47Jocko Willink?

  And I see it's still not done. Is there, is there some support that you need from me? Is there some help that you need from me? Cause this is important. I probably didn't do a good job of explaining why it's important, but it's actually connected to this larger project that we're doing over at headquarters. And this is our part of the task. And I don't, I don't think I explained that very well, but do you need anything else from me to, to maybe move this along? You can't just allow things to be for you to talk, to, for you to give directions and they just get blown off.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:10Jocko Willink?

  Like, that's not good. And what I'm not saying is, oh, you blew off my order. Now I'm going to go high order on you, right? That's not what I'm saying.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense too. Cause man, if I, if I had a boss who I was, I was primed to dismiss any of his directives.

• 26:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  And it happened and it happened successfully. Like I dismissed it and there was really no real repercussions. Oh, you've better believe I'm picking and choosing what I'm following.

• 26:36Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, that's, that, he's testing the envelope anyways. He's testing to see, you know, what he can get away with. But cause he sees your young, young buck rolling in here, thinks he's going to tell me what to do. Watch this. I'm not going to listen to you. Okay. Cool. Now if you fly off the handle and go nuts, you know what? You'll get them to do it immediately.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:53Jocko Willink?

  And then guess what? You're going to get undermined. You're going to get usurped. You're going to get, they're going to have the project fail just so they can get rid of you. They're going to laugh at you.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's bad.

• 27:03Jocko Willink?

  As the, as, as you're getting walked out by the HR department. So you gotta be careful, man. You gotta be careful. That's what I'm saying. Balance these things out. Balance extreme ownership. Get the book, Dichotomy of Leadership. That's what it's about. It's about being balanced. Cool.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Next question, Jaco. What do you do when people treat you like a doormat? And then when you finally put your foot down, they lose their minds. I try to be agreeable, but there's a limit. When I stand my ground, people act shocked. Any advice?

• 27:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so this is actually kind of the same thing, right? You need to be balanced because what's happening with this dude, I assume, is that sitting around, getting, getting like a pushover, like a doormat, people are kind of walking all over. And then all of a sudden, he does an instant 180 and goes, puts his foot down, right? And now you think that they're gonna do a 180. You think that they're gonna say, oh, sorry, I didn't mean to, oh, sorry, Echo, I didn't, I didn't know that that offended you. I'm sorry. No, when you do that, they're like, what's wrong with you, bro?

• 28:05Speaker 01

  You just started tripping.

• 28:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, you're freaking out over nothing. So of course, when you stand your ground, they're gonna be shocked, right? Which is what you're saying happened. This is like no surprise at all. So what you need to do is, is you gotta draw the line a little bit earlier, but without going nuts. And I think I got a good example of how you do this. Okay, let's say you got a dog. And the dog is like, kind of mellow and happy and just doesn't, just all good. And then like all of a sudden, you know, you're walking by the dog one day and, ah, it bites you on the arm. Like, like, big time.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:42Jocko Willink?

  Big time. How do you feel about that dog?

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, bad. I don't like the dog.

• 28:46Jocko Willink?

  That's bad. That dog's getting put down.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:48Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 28:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:50Jocko Willink?

  This dog, let's say it bit one of your kids.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:53Jocko Willink?

  That, that dog's getting put down. Okay, so that's, that's what this guy's doing. All acting all like everything's like nothing bothering me and all of a sudden biting people.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:03Jocko Willink?

  Think about what a dog, like a normal dog does. What a normal dog does is it's, if it starts getting offended a little bit or starts getting problems, it's, it like stands up a little bit, right? And then it's gonna, it's gonna growl. Now that's an indicator. So even a kid, even a child knows. I don't know what age, but pretty young kids know that a growling dog is, is, is a warning. What else do dogs do? Dogs show their teeth. That's another warning, like, hey, that's another line in the sand. And, and barking, right? Because you have to bark. And I mean, a dog barks at you and a dog barks at you, it's got your attention, it's growling at you. You know what's gonna happen next if you keep doing whatever it is you're doing, right? You need to back away from that dog.

• 29:48Jocko Willink?

  Now, if you did, if the dog did all those things to you and then it bit you, you you'll still be mad at it, but you at least know that you kinda had it coming, right?

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yes, sir.

• 29:59Jocko Willink?

  So, so there you go. That's what this dude needs to do a little bit of. He needs to learn how to growl a little bit. How to bark a little bit, how to show your teeth a little, how to just stand up posture correct. Cause there's, you know, a dog, if you know dogs at all, dogs have a posture. And they have a posture, their ears are down and their, their, their tails down. When, when they get fired up, boom, ears are up. They're on alert, their back is, they get the cackles can stand up and everything. That means like, okay, that's, that's even before growling, that's happening, alert. So this dude needs to learn how to come to an alert and improve his po- increase his posture in those moments.

• 30:39Jocko Willink?

  Not when it's getting too far, but like when someone, when somebody gives you a little jab, you know? You can't bite him. You gotta give a little growl.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:50Jocko Willink?

  Back him off a little bit, you know? And again, this is, I don't know you, you know, so it's hard for me to say. Some people just have a hard time dealing with when people harass them.

• 31:02Jocko Willink?

  Cause I think the best thing to do when somebody makes fun of me is just to like, yeah, good one.

• 31:09Jocko Willink?

  You know, like, cause you know, just like we were talking about before we started this podcast. If I let you know that whatever you just said to me bothers me, bro, I can expect you to just keep getting after that thing until I snap.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:22Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta be careful. You don't wanna be all hypersensitive. The other thing to remember is, man,

• 31:29Jocko Willink?

  when people are making fun of you, it's not like they hate you most of the time.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:34Jocko Willink?

  You know, it's, it's not that big of a deal. Like people talk smack to each other, right? People talk smack to each other and, and I guarantee this is, this is, this is a good way to think about it. If someone talks smack to you. If you and then you both leave, let's say it's at work, you go home, the other person that was talking smack goes home. You go home, you're thinking about it. That person that was talking smack didn't think about it one millisecond after he left the office, he didn't care. He's not sitting there thinking about you. He's not thinking like, man, I'm really glad I told Echo that, you know, he had a funny looking eyebrows. That was awesome. I can't believe how weird his eyebrows are. Like, I mean, that's like, he's not doing that, right? He's not even thinking about it. He just went home. He's carrying on with his life. Carry on with your life.

• 32:18Jocko Willink?

  Don't get all tied up about what these other people are thinking of you. It's not that big of a deal. No one's sitting around thinking about it. It's it's a it's a perception that we have that the whole world revolves around us and that people are sitting around thinking about us all the time. It's like, they're not thinking about you all the time. They don't care. They're they're at home. There's not too many people that are actually thinking about you all the time. Especially if they're making fun of you, like they're they're not thinking about that all the time. So just relax, take a wrap off. And just, you know, try and have a little bit less tension. And, you know, and try and learn to growl a little bit, or at least protect your space a little bit. And these are kind of contrary contradictory things that I'm saying. One of them is like, hey, laugh at it. The other one's like, kind of learn to growl a little bit.

• 32:59Jocko Willink?

  I would say first, the first method is better. The first method is like, hey, just laugh it off. Don't worry about it. These people aren't thinking about you. They don't care. Probably, it's like when we had Jordan Peterson, he was talking about his friend Lunch Bucket, right? Lunch Bucket?

• 33:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:13Jocko Willink?

  The guy that worked and as soon as everyone realized that it bothered him that they called him Lunch Bucket, everyone just called him Lunch Bucket and then they he quit because he couldn't handle it. So don't be if you if someone calls you Lunch Bucket, you're like, cool. Yeah, my mom makes a good sandwich. Mom makes a pretty good Sammy, you know? And then boom, you break out the Lunch Bucket. You're like, you know, go with it. No, no factor.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:33Jocko Willink?

  You start freaking out about this stuff, it's gonna drive you crazy. So.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 33:37Jocko Willink?

  So be careful. Don't freak out about stuff. If you have to, learn to stand your ground a little bit, but don't just start snapping. Good dog. Like a rabid dog.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that that that is a good little escalation, that example escalating, you know, the dog thing. Because I mean, getting treated like a doormat, that could look like a bunch of different things. You know, it's teasing, that seems like the obvious one or whatever, but you know, that could be a lot of stuff.

• 34:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that could be like, hey, grab me some coffee.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:05Jocko Willink?

  Right? Sometimes people just do that because you haven't ever said to them like, you know, like, hey, man, are you ever gonna get me coffee? What's up? You know, you just make a joke about it, right?

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Same thing. Yeah, exactly. Like dealing with it like as a, you know, if something bothers you so that and I could see this maybe happening because every once in a while, like, you know, you kind of run into these scenarios where like someone does something that you um, you don't really like, or you don't, I don't appreciate the way they treated me right there during that scenario. And it sort of always happens, but it's too small to make a big deal out of it at that time. And when you're a agreeable person, you're just like, all right, I'm gonna essentially, I'm gonna let it slide, whatever, you know? But it happens again, then again, but I'm agreeable, I'm letting it slide, ha ha, maybe I'll even laugh it off, whatever. So to the other person, they're just like, whatever, they're just how you said, they're not thinking about it, they're just going about their business and they're getting a laugh here and there, which

• 34:55Speaker 01

  instantly gets forgotten and whatever. They keep going about their business, no, no, no factor. Meanwhile, in my head, I'm like, man, this is, I'm getting tired of this, I'm straight up getting tired. So it happens one day, maybe I got a little less sleep that day or something, one teeny tiny thing, I'm flying off the handle. Hey, I don't appreciate this and this and that, you do, you always do it. And they're like, do I always do this? Because even if I did, I would, I didn't get any, so then you get this little reputation, people act shocked, as the guy says. You know, when I stand my ground, it's the other person is kind of like, why are you standing your ground right now? It doesn't make sense. Like, even if I did remember all the times I've done this, you were laughing the whole time. Like, it doesn't compute.

• 35:38Jocko Willink?

  You know what's funny? Now that, now that I think, I think about times in my life, like when I was younger. And someone would stand their ground on me or whatever. And I'd be like, what are you talking about? I'd be the exact person that you're talking about saying, what are you talking about, man? Like, I have no idea what you're talking about.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:53Jocko Willink?

  Why are you freaking out right now?

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:55Jocko Willink?

  And they're like, you always say stuff like that. And maybe I'd put together, okay, maybe I do make. Whereas now that I'm older, if someone was to freak out like that on me, I would instantly recognize thinking to myself like, you know what? I probably do things that I shouldn't. I probably, oh yeah, I kind of ride this person. And that's why they're freaking out right now.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:11Jocko Willink?

  A little bit more aware.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:13Jocko Willink?

  Of my impact.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And but in a way, you sort of had to, I mean, I'm sure you've sort of, you're sort of familiar with this, you know, even like painting that picture. It's like, it's obvious you're familiar with this, you know? But when it's happening to you, you're kind of not. But then if you have to go, go back and do like some investigation of your whole like relationship with a person to to understand, okay, now I see how that could have been interpreted back last year. And then maybe three months ago, and then maybe last week, and then like right now, okay, I'm out. You know, then it, but it doesn't compute naturally, you know? So yeah, if you do that, the escalating dog.

• 36:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Thing, it'll, it'll be more clear, I think.

• 36:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And only be an escalated dog, only escalate the dog scenario if you can't just have a good time with it and relax and not worry about it.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:03Jocko Willink?

  Which is the primary goal.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Yes. But being treated like a doormat, like I said, like if you know how like, people are just so, you know, people, people pleaser type of person, like in a relationship or something.

• 37:14Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Like, um, you know, like, uh, I don't know. It's, I can't think of an example, but.

• 37:19Jocko Willink?

  Can't think of a movie reference? That's very pathetic.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Actually, I can think of a bunch, but. Anyway, if you're like a people pleaser and you do everything for, you know, and then they don't do it back, you know, kind of thing. Like, oh yeah, you let your, you know, husband or wife or whatever, you let them go out every Saturday just because they want to. They want to go play poker or, you know, one of these things that what's the common thing that they do? And they do, and they come back late and drunk. But no, well, it'd be way worse than that. It'll be just total, like, whatever you need or want, you got it. And then like the one time they say, hey, I want to go shopping on this. They'd be like, oh, shopping. Well, you got to do this. You got to do the kid. You know, like that kind of where it's like a disproportionate, like, relationship, you know, kind of thing. Like that can, I can see how it can go down with those types of relationships.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  You know, like being, you can't just laugh those things off in life, you know? You do have to do the escalation thing, be like, hey.

• 38:11Jocko Willink?

  That's a little bit more serious. Yeah. True.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Next question. Hey, Jaco, I'm a business owner in the beginning stages of merging with another company. The other company doesn't know much about what we do, but has the sales and marketing, marketing we need. Just at a conference with, or just at a conference call with them, and it didn't go well. They're wanting to change the pay structure for contractors as well as change how we bill our customers. All the, all for the benefit of money.

• 38:42Jocko Willink?

  Cha-ching.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, save some money on that one. Is it not a good idea to have, have the primary mission be about money and more so on the success of the customer? Or is it good to be money motivated? I, I have and enjoy all your books.

• 38:58Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  Any advice would be helpful.

• 39:01Jocko Willink?

  So that means you've read the dichotomy of leadership, I hope. Because this is the answer of the day. Need to be more balanced. Okay, so if you're money hungry, right, which is what this is sounding like, if you're money hungry, correct. If you're money hungry, you're going to cut corners on product. The product is going to be weak or, or low quality. You're going to do wrong by the customer, right? Cause when you, when you get a chance to, you know, the customer, the customer placed an order, a double order by accident. They click the click thing twice. And they're still going to have to pay that restocking fee, you know, whatever, like whatever the thing is, right? You treat customers like that and they're going to go, okay, well, we don't really want to shop with you anymore.

• 39:42Jocko Willink?

  And you end up with a bad reputation and the quality's low and no, eventually you have no more business. That's what's going to happen. So, so no, we can't go hardcore money grubbing. Just, that's our, that's our focus. Other end of the spectrum. Is, hey, we're paying our contractors too much. Is that possible? Yes, it's possible. You're giving your customers too much. You're giving them too good of a price point.

• 40:11Jocko Willink?

  And guess what's now gonna happen? Same thing. You're gonna not have a business anymore. So, one, you have a, your business goes out of business because you're, because you don't have any business anymore because you've treated your customers bad and the contractors don't want to work with you. So, you have, you end up shutting down. This one's opposite. You're, everyone loves you. You just don't have any money. So, you're going out of business. So, there has to be some balance. You have to find the right balance. That's what every company is trying to do. Now, I would say that you, where you want to lean, and this is probably what you're thinking. You want to lean toward taking care of the customer. You want to lean toward giving the contractors good value for their work.

• 40:53Jocko Willink?

  You want to lean toward high quality. The reason you want to lean towards those things is those are all long-term strategic payoffs, right? What's the short term? The short term is take advantage of the customers. The short term is screw over the contractors. The short term is put out low-quality stuff. We make good profit this quarter. Yeah, yeah. But it's a, it's a short-term win. It's a long-time, long-term loss. So, that's why I would say lean, don't go out of control. You can't go out of control in that direction. But you can lean towards that direction. Now, as far as the new company, the merger and all this stuff, get it. I get it.

• 41:31Jocko Willink?

  Here's what's gonna happen. You need to go and build good relationships with those people, the new company. They need to be your best friends. Because if you build relationships with them, then you can have influence over these points. If you have an antagonistic relationship and you're the new guy or whatever, like, oh, yeah, the new company. You, you think they don't, you're saying that they, what does he say? They don't know what we do, right? What do you think they think? They think you don't know what they do. They're thinking, you know what? You don't even, hey, you guys make good, might make good product, but you can't sell anything. And we got sales and we got marketing. We could sell anything. We don't care what it looks like. We don't care what the quality is. That's what they're thinking. Yeah. So, you need to form a relationship with them. Because I will tell you, with their sales and marketing,

• 42:13Jocko Willink?

  if you're making a good product, that's how we get the big-time win. But if you have an antagonistic relationship with them. Uh, it'll all fall apart and you won't have any influence at all. And they'll be like, you don't even know what you're talking about, dude. We're just gonna jack the price even more and we're gonna undercut our contractors. We're gonna get contractors competing with each other. They're gonna hate each other. They're gonna hate us, but it doesn't matter. Look at our bottom line. So, build some relationships there.

• 42:40Speaker 01

  Next wish. I'm conflicted about where my loyalty lies. I have a wife and two children, but I recently took a job within federal law enforcement and based on my prior tactical experience. I'll be given the opportunity to attend a two weeks selection for a position as an operator on a full-time tactical team that will most certainly pull me away from my family. My heart is in the right place. I know this level of sacrifice is needed in order to keep evil at bay. However, I believe every father feels that obligation to be at home, to raise the children.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  And I'm learning that balancing duty, responsibility, loyalty, commitment to family, to country is hard and maybe impossible.

• 43:28Jocko Willink?

  Alright, so, again, he goes on to say that I know you have made this decision yourself. Yep, and I would say to this dude, um, actually, you are the only person that can make this decision. And you're right, I did make that decision. I did 20 years and I, at the end of 20 years, decided to prioritize my family over the military and over my own desires too. Cause believe me, the selfish thing is just keep getting after it. But also, what's important, I was not good at balancing, right? I've, I ranked and prioritized the teams above my family the whole time I was in.

• 44:07Jocko Willink?

  And not everyone does that. Some people are much better at balancing than I did. And that's how they do 30 and 32 years and 34 years and 27 years. They, they figure out how to balance that better than I did. And so, it sounds like you're even raising this question indicates to me that you probably have a decent chance of being able to be better at balancing than I do. So, there's that. The other thing I would say is you say that the, being an operator on a full-time tactical team will most certainly pull me away from my family. I would research that a little bit, you know, because sometimes when you get to a little higher level, you have more flexibility and you might, you might actually have time to spend with

• 44:50Jocko Willink?

  your family, it might be a little bit different. Maybe you're on call, whereas normally you wouldn't be on call, but now all of a sudden you're on call, but you're, while you're on call, you're at least, you know, you're, you might be doing, you might have more family time. I don't know. I can tell you that, you know, sometimes depending on the way you look at it, you know, if you look at the special operations community versus the conventional community and it just depends on the units, depends on a lot of things, but sometimes, you know, the conventional forces go on a, you know, 16 month deployment to Iraq. And that's a long time. Some special operations units going on four month deployments and they come home. Now they, now they might do more of those over their career, but again, that's something you need to, you need to find out the facts. You need to talk to someone that's on that team and

• 45:34Jocko Willink?

  say, hey, listen, here's what's going on. I got two sons. They wrestle and they do jujitsu and I like to go to those tournaments. What's our schedule like? How is it going to be? You know? And then you kind of, you can make a better assessment. I wouldn't just assume that the tactical team has a busier schedule. I could be wrong. I could be completely wrong. What, what you're probably, the assumption you're making, which is a decent assumption, is that when you're part of a, part of an elite tactical team, you're going to have to input more time. It's going to, it's going to, it's going to mean more to you and you're going to be like, okay, I need to train more. I'm going to tell you, you should train more, no matter what position you're in, right? You need to be training as much as you can. You need to be staying sharp. So I would do some research on

• 46:19Jocko Willink?

  that. And then I would also consider this.

• 46:24Jocko Willink?

  Men have been leaving their families.

• 46:29Jocko Willink?

  So they could go and fight evil since the beginning of time, whether it was they were going out to fight the lions.

• 46:37Jocko Willink?

  Or whether they were going out to fight some, or going to invade other countries or going to find treasure or whatever, whatever they were doing, people have been doing it, even World War II, guys left and there's no guarantee that they were coming home. They left for two, three, four years.

• 46:51Jocko Willink?

  Those, that's the way it works. Your, your boys are not going to be, they're not, their lives aren't going to be ruined if you're not there at every ballgame. And I'll tell you, there's actually, i- if you do that, your sons will learn the meaning of duty and sacrifice more than a normal kid would. So, so pay attention to that too. Again, all that being said, this is something that only you can make the call on because you're, you can analyze the details of the situation. And you know, what if your wife works or your wife works or that wife doesn't work? That makes a big deal. If your wife works and you're gone all the time, that's a problem.

• 47:34Jocko Willink?

  Now who's raising your kids? You've got to pay attention to that. If you, if you both work, but you both work normal jobs, now you're home, you're doing, you're, you know, you're there enough. So just weigh these things out, but I would, I would get the details and then make a decision. And you know what? No matter what decision you make, it's the right decision. How's that? That's pretty simple. You're, if you make a decision and you're going to go on the tactical team, cool. If you don't, cool. You're still doing federal law enforcement. Awesome.

• 48:02Jocko Willink?

  Keeping the, keeping the monsters at bay.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, the thing that helped me a lot that you explained early on is to tell them why you're, tell people why you're doing, what you're doing. You know, the team and in this case, the family or whatever. And in this specific case, probably your wife.

• 48:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  So if you're feeling that, because I did, I did the, the feeling of like, oh, I, I feel like I'm not being as loyal to my family because I'm like focusing on work kind of thing. So I'll get that from time to time, you know, especially if I'm like super focused and it's like, dang, I didn't think about my kids or family all day today. You know, I'll have that little thing, whatever. I dig it.

• 48:39Jocko Willink?

  And I used to go like four months without thinking about my family. I'm such a horrible.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Well, it's a sliding scale. So, you know, but I do know that the more I communicate with my wife and be like, hey, I have to go here. And this is what I'm going to, I'm going to really try to focus on this, you know, this week, you know, so hey, can you?

• 48:59Jocko Willink?

  Make a video this week.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  Sure. And you know, I

• 49:04Jocko Willink?

  I'll be really busy.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I'll be busy. So I might not be here for this and this and you know, like I might miss this, you know, and just lay it all out and why you're doing it, you know, how you always say. And a lot of the times your loyalty will be demonstrating demonstrated with that. You know, like, it's like, hey, I'm doing my, my job. It's the time requirements are a little bit more or whatever. Like, I want you to know, like, what can I, can we do anything? Can we adjust anything to make it better for everybody?

• 49:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's you're a hundred percent right. And, and actually to take that one step further, including your wife into the decision-making process where you're like, hey, listen, hon. This, if I do this job, it's going to be more, but A, it's going to be super rewarding to me. And sometimes that's enough. You know, you tell your wife, this is going to be super rewarding for me because I'm going to be able to go and kill bad guys, which is, or protect innocent people, which is what I want to do. That's what I signed up for and I'm going to be able to do it in a, in a more complete way. And there's a chance your wife says, you know what? I know that's what you're born to do. Go do it. Or she might say, listen, you've done that already. You know, let's focus on the family and you, you're cool. Those are both good decisions. We're in a win-win situation here. That's the bottom line, dude.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Next question. Jocelyn, I'm nineteen and my, in my first year of college, ever since I was twelve, I've dreamed about being a Marine or SEAL. I planned on joining up after college, but I just got diagnosed with epilepsy. I only have seizures in my sleep, so I never noticed them. I always thought of serving in the military as a way that I would prove to myself that I was a man. And that it would be, it give my life a purpose. Now, I don't know what to do. I hate the idea of living some comfortable life where I have a cozy nine to five job that I only do for the money. I want something hard and meaningful. What should I do?

• 50:50Jocko Willink?

  There's an infinite number of options that you have. So you need to just pick one of those options, find a new career of, that you think looks cool and then go get after it. And you got to figure you want to, you don't want a nine to five job. Cool. There's all kinds of jobs that aren't nine to five. You know, whether it's construction management, or construction, or gas, oil, or some kind of public safety. There's all kinds of things. I don't know if you can be a firefighter. I don't know if you can be a cop if you have epilepsy. I'm not sure. But there's all kinds of different jobs and careers. And there's jobs that are hard. And there's jobs that are incredibly meaningful to our economy here.

• 51:32Jocko Willink?

  And the more you help our economy here, the more you help us have a positive influence in the world. So go and figure out what job you want to do and go crush it. And go, you know, build an empire and make a ton of money. And then if you want to, great, then you can support some veterans causes and you can give back that way. So, so that's cool. There's, there's, it's always impressive to me. We work with all kinds of different companies at Echelon Front. It's always so impressive to me when I meet people from every possible industry that you can imagine. And they're completely into their job.

• 52:14Jocko Willink?

  They are so into their job, they're fighting World War Nine. Like they're that into it, you know? They're running intel, they're running operations, they're, they're driving down every dollar matters. Everything that they're doing, they're so into it and it's awesome. And, and this is everything. This is every different industry I see people like that. Now, not every person in every industry is like that. But if you find something that you're interested is in and you jump in there. And that's going to be your vocation, right? Now, there's another part to this that is kind of, I guess, like in your head or whatever. And that's like some kind of hard living.

• 52:58Jocko Willink?

  That's not, that's not very difficult to come up with, right? Go start training jujitsu, go start training some boxing, go start wrestling, go do Muay Thai, go start shooting, go start lifting and seeing how strong you can get and seeing how powerful you can get. Go learn to hunt and learn to hike and learn to play guitar and learn, just learn a bunch of stuff. Become a force to be reckoned with.

• 53:23Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, the bottom line is being a SEAL or being a Marine does not prove that you are a man. There are plenty of losers in both of those organizations. And so don't, you don't need some label to make you a man. That's not what makes you a man. Be your own man. Go out and conquer your part of the world.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  Two questions. I recently attended an assessment for retraining.

• 54:03Jocko Willink?

  Let's say one more thing. Sorry.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  No, man.

• 54:05Jocko Willink?

  When things like this happen, like when something happens to me, this is, you want to hear my weird, superstitious view of the world?

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 54:16Jocko Willink?

  It's sort of, it's sort of reminiscent of everything happens for a reason. You've heard that, everyone's heard that. For me, something like this, when something like this happens to me, when something happens in my life that I didn't want to have happen, or I didn't expect to happen, I get an unpleasant surprise. I look at it and assess it like, okay, this is, this is happening, so that's something else. This is trying to prevent something else from happening to me that I would have been really catastrophic. I hurt my knee the other day doing jiu-jitsu, doing wrestling. And I, on my way, driving home, I'm like, you know what?

• 54:57Jocko Willink?

  This is preventing me from wrecking my shoulder in two weeks. Or the next night, I was probably gonna wreck my shoulder, which is, which is, you know, a catastrophic injury on my shoulder. That's what was about to happen to me. And the powers that be knew the only way to get me off the mat

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:21Jocko Willink?

  was to hurt my knee bad enough that it pulled me off the mat for, for a couple of weeks. So boom, there you go. Here you go, Jaco. You're welcome.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:29Jocko Willink?

  So something like this, this is an indicator, as far as I'm concerned, you have some bigger and better thing that you need to do. Some, hey, it wasn't this. That's cool. Accept it like right on. Say thank you. Because there's people that, they, they, it's not epilepsy that they have, they have something that debilitates them from doing even things that you are capable of doing. So be stoked that this delivery came from wherever it comes from, whatever it is that you believe in.

• 56:00Jocko Willink?

  That this, this, this, this happened because it's, it's putting you on the path. I guess that's what I'm saying. It's putting you on the path. So who knows what you're supposed to do, but you're supposed to do something because you're not supposed to be a SEAL. You're not supposed to be a Marine. If you were supposed to be, that, that would have happened. It didn't happen. That's not a bad thing. That means there's some other doors gonna open up, big.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:24Jocko Willink?

  So that's the way I, I always look at injuries like that. I always, that's the most positive way I can look at injuries is, hey, I was going to, whatever. I was gonna, like, I was gonna rip apart triple threat on my knee in four days. So I just got a little ding to pull me off the mat so that doesn't happen.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:45Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I needed rest. Here's what you get. Boom. You're gonna get this.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll have those thoughts too sometimes. Like, it's kinda like, oh, I'm safe from injury because I'm already injured kinda thing.

• 56:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, there you go.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  It's a weird feeling. Yeah, but that is true. And, yeah, and kinda like a lot of times too, and this is so good that, that guy, this guy is, he knows already, I wanna do something hard and meaningful. Bruh, I'm, man, uh, how, did he say how old he was? Nineteen?

• 57:12Jocko Willink?

  Nineteen.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Man, nineteen, I didn't have.

• 57:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's already on the path.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  Bruh, he's totally on the path and, you know, he's just discovering what doors he wants to, you know, what doors are open, what doors are closed, whatever, you know? And he's just got, man, when I was nineteen, nah, I didn't have no direction. Did I, did I ever have the thought of, hey, yeah, I wanna do something hard and meaningful? Did I ever have that thought? Hmm, no, I did not have that thought ever. Um, maybe lifting weights or something like this, but yeah, man, that's good. So I, yeah, I think he's in the game.

• 57:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, man. Yeah, there's no, there's no label that makes you a man. You do. Check.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  And you're doing a good job so far, evidently. All right, next question, two questions. I recently attended assessment for retraining into the combat control career field. I'm active duty for Air Force in a different career field and rang the bell. During water confidence training, how do I live with my decision and move forward?

• 58:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and then you see there's two, there's two questions that are basically the same question. So that was part A and this is part B.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  I do read.

• 58:16Jocko Willink?

  D O R.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  D O R, okay.

• 58:17Jocko Willink?

  Drop on request.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Gotcha, ringing the bell, same thing, right? So I D O R'd from BUDs class 303. I went, went on to be a SAR corpsman.

• 58:28Jocko Willink?

  SAR swimmer, SAR swimmer corpsman. So he was a, he was a rescue swimmer.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Okay, but it's ta, but it's taken until recently to regain the desire to live and even strive to work out again. What can you do when you realize a life path you've chosen was not only wrong, but you never feel like you found a new path?

• 58:49Jocko Willink?

  To me, this, this question, both these questions are kind of similar to the previous one, right? And like I can tell you, being a, being a SEAL or being a combat controller is not the be all end all. And the bottom line is it wasn't for you. It wasn't for you, it wasn't, either one of you guys, it just wasn't for you. And the, the, the fact of the matter is it's not for most people. It's not normal. There's an 80% attrition rate of BUDs. Most people quit, good people. I was down there the other day and I was talking to one of my buddies that runs, runs it, runs the, he's, he's a civilian, but he's one of the civilians that works there. But he was, we were talking about, you know, what it, about BUDs.

• 59:30Jocko Willink?

  And I forget what even led into it, but he pointed at the, you know, when you, when you quit BUDs, you put your helmet by the bell. And so as more and more people quit, more and more helmets are lined up and there'll be hundreds of helmets lined up. And he's like, you see those helmets right there? And I'm like, yeah. He goes, every single one of those kids was a stud.

• 59:52Jocko Willink?

  And when I went through, it wasn't quite like that because not everyone that was showing up at BUDs in the 90s. was a stud. They they weren't because we didn't know what was happening. We didn't know. We didn't know how to do a pull up workout. We couldn't look online. And see. A program on how to get better at rope climbs. We didn't know that you had to swim with fins. We didn't know. I didn't know. I didn't know anything when I showed up to BUDS. So. These kids now they know everything.

• 1:00:29Jocko Willink?

  And so what do they do? They prepare all of them at a minimum. I would say the minimum guy prepared now is probably prepared at least as good as the most prepared guy. Actually, that's probably that's probably inaccurate. I bet you the minimum, the least prepared guy entering BUDS right now. Is probably still more prepared than the most prepared guy that went to BUDS when I went through. Now. So, so my point in saying that. Is most of those people that are studs quit. Most of those people that join the Navy. That sign on a dotted line and commit six years of their life because there's nothing more they want to do than be a SEAL. And most of them don't make it through. So it's not for everyone.

• 1:01:15Jocko Willink?

  And then you know what? You you one guy in the Air Force, one guy in the Navy, you did your job, you did what you're supposed to do, corpsman, whatever your normal career field was in the Air Force, and you served your country. And you did what the country needed you to do. The country needs you to do whatever job you did. The country needed you to do that job. So thank you for your service. And now you go and find something else. You go and find a new mission. And the same things here, like you you you want to get better with your life. So what do you do? You work and you build and you study and you get an awesome physical condition and you train jujitsu.

• 1:01:52Jocko Willink?

  And you become a doctor or a firefighter or EMT or a cop and there's whichever way that you figure out that you can serve, you become a business person, you go and work construction, whatever it is that you do. You go and do it. You do it hard and you don't get caught up in a title, right?

• 1:02:08Jocko Willink?

  So this is another thing, this kind of reflects back to what we were talking about earlier. Seals don't care that you weren't a SEAL. You know, like it's not like SEALs are walking around going, oh, this person wasn't a SEAL, I don't respect them. This person wasn't a SEAL, I don't respect them. We don't care. It's a vocation, it's a job. So you're not, I don't look down on people that weren't SEALs. It's just, that was my job, you had a different job, right? It's, it's like, it's like jujitsu. I don't look down on people that don't train jujitsu.

• 1:02:42Jocko Willink?

  I look at them like, hey, you should. Because that's a choice. But let me rephrase that. I don't look down on people that I can beat in jujitsu. Because I know for a fact, all it is is that I've been training longer than them. And once they train longer than me, they'll be able to beat me. That's the way it works. So people that were in the SEAL teams aren't looking down on you because you weren't. They don't care. They're not thinking about it. So when I meet a cop, when I meet a firefighter, when I meet a business person, I respect what they're doing with their life, if they're getting after it. I don't care what arena it's in. Man, I know some, I, I'm so lucky right now, working at Echelon Front, we meet people that are just, just awesome humans that are crushing their field.

• 1:03:26Jocko Willink?

  And if they were in the SEAL teams, they'd be crushing that field, but they didn't. They went to what, they went and did what they did. They went in the finance world, they went in the construction world, they went in the gas oil business, whatever they did, they did, and they're getting after it. So that's what you need to do. You quit in the past, you rang the bell. No one cares.

• 1:03:48Jocko Willink?

  Unless you quit now.

• 1:03:51Jocko Willink?

  So get up. Go find a new mission and get after it, man. Get after it.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  You've been unfairly wronged by a brother. Objectively.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  You aren't getting the full apology that you expected. The beef is over now and he treats you well, but how do you psychologically reframe and kill that lingering resentment?

• 1:04:20Jocko Willink?

  Unfairly wronged by a brother. Interesting. Brothers don't wrong brothers. We'll start with that. So this dude wasn't actually a bro, a brother. Might have been a bro, but he wasn't a brother. Make a little distinction there. Has that distinction ever been made before?

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  I don't think on this platform.

• 1:04:39Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'm making it.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 1:04:40Jocko Willink?

  There's like, hey, this guy's my bro. It's all good. And then there's like, this guy's my brother. My brother is not going to wrong me. My bro might. But my brother's not going to wrong me. So that, so if it happens, some guy. Like I said, if somebody that you consider your brother wrongs you, then they clearly you. You overestimated their.

• 1:05:05Jocko Willink?

  Commitment. So here's what's going to happen with me. Number one, it's noted. Noted. That's my, that's my ultimate. That's my ultimate. Satisfaction. Right? When I know, when it's, when I note something.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it's like, oh, this is the kind of, kind of person he is noted.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:25Jocko Willink?

  Now I got him. Now I got this person marked. So. Trust is not going to be reestablished. For a long, long time, if ever. Right?

• 1:05:38Jocko Willink?

  I'm not gonna. Like this person, clearly.

• 1:05:43Jocko Willink?

  But here's the deal. All that mistrust and all that dislike and all that. Is going to be internal. I'm gonna keep it inside.

• 1:05:53Jocko Willink?

  Cause you know what? I'm gonna have those inside. I'm gonna harbor that. I'm gonna harbor those things. Even this resentment, I'm gonna harbor it. Cause I can't, I can't just make it go away. You, you, you wronged me. It's gonna be there.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:05Jocko Willink?

  But you know what? I'm a professional. Externally, I'm a professional. Even if we're not in a business, even if it's just like, hey, I, I trained jujitsu with this guy, right? I'm a professional. So I'm not gonna let his little maneuvers get me externally worked up about it. It's not happening. You don't get control my emotions like that externally. You might control them inside, but I won't let you see that ever. So I'm a professional, I'm normal face. That's where I'm coming at you from. Just normal face. Hey, all good. Oh, yeah. And you know what's interesting? This behavior, so when you screw me over, and then I just go, okay, check, noted. And then,

• 1:06:49Jocko Willink?

  I don't give you a reason to like hate me. And then you kind of owe me.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:55Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  Yes, I do.

• 1:06:57Jocko Willink?

  So there's that, and there's a, there's a fine line. Like if you screw me over and then I just allow it to happen and it was a, it was a, uh, a legitimate violation. Well, then there might be have to be repercussions, right? It sounds like this did not warrant repercussions. Cause you know, there's certain situations, if somebody wrongs you in certain ways, there has to be repercussions. To me, normally, most of the time, the repercussions and the best revenge that you can take is, is to ignore and outperform and be successful and rock on and forget about them and forget they even existed. That to me is the best possible way to go. Cause why would you let somebody interfere?

• 1:07:38Jocko Willink?

  Why would you commit any time, effort, resources to revenge? When I would, the better thing to do is commit those time, resources, energy to success, to winning. I'm gonna do that. But if this merits some sort of repercussions, okay, then those get carried out. And if those get carried out, well, then we're, we're, we're kind of settled. But he says you didn't get the full apology you expected. It's like, okay. I mean, hey, guess what? People are arrogant. That's the way it is. They don't think, the guy didn't even think he did anything wrong, most likely. He's not even apologizing for it barely.

• 1:08:16Jocko Willink?

  So that's what I do. I'm just gonna keep it professional. I'm gonna, you're gonna be subconsciously indebted to me, whether you know it or not.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:26Jocko Willink?

  You probably know it, you'll probably feel it. Cause I'm just gonna be like, okay, cool. Yeah. We'll move on. But I, man, you know, the thing is, this is sort of goes back to that other kind of topic today, like this guy isn't going around thinking about you.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:40Jocko Willink?

  So why are you thinking about him? Let's move on, man. Let's move forward.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, that seems like a big part of it, right? Like that seems like he was, he says, you aren't, you aren't getting the full apology, you know, like remember on that Seinfeld, that apology?

• 1:08:55Jocko Willink?

  Dude, I was talking to someone. I was talking to someone like, like the apology, I was talking to someone that we both know. Who's will say a, a public figure. And this individual was reading YouTube comments. And getting legitimately like emotionally distraught about the whole thing. Yeah. And was, was trying to talk to me about it and like, I, I said, man, I literally do not care.

• 1:09:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm like, I do not care. Like this is no factor. You don't need to warn me. You don't need to tell me, you know, what I need to look out for. Like I literally don't care.

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:40Jocko Willink?

  I mean, if someone writes a good YouTube comment, good, it's funny. That's great. If they write a, a mean one, cool. I think those are funny too. I'm not, I'm not worried about it. The person that wrote the YouTube comment isn't thinking about me. You know, they're not trying, they're not, they're not reviewing it again and writing it again. And, and you know, like they don't care. I'm not getting all caught up in this stuff. Don't get caught up in these petty things. You know, I did that. We talked about this on the podcast of, of, of the black belt. The black belt doesn't care about things that don't matter. You can grab the, the black belt's shoulder. If his gi, and he doesn't care because he knows that doesn't mean anything. There's no, there's no, that's no factor. So you wanna, that's, that's what you wanna do. You wanna, you don't wanna care about things that don't matter.

• 1:10:25Jocko Willink?

  Don't invest your time and energy in things that don't matter. The guy wronged you? Cool. Noted. You know that he's kind of, kind of a, a devious dude. You know that? It's noted? Cool. Move on. No, I'm not worried about it. Am I gonna put my trust in him again? Nope. But that's cool. Cause I know other people to trust.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:40Jocko Willink?

  Let's not get wrapped around these little things, man. Let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's rise above. Get some black flag going here. Let's rise above.

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  I still wonder what kind of apology.

• 1:10:49Jocko Willink?

  I totally cut you off. So sorry about that.

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it was a Seinfeld thing. It didn't matter. The, but I'm wondering what. At the same time, while you're saying, I agree. But I do wonder what kind of apology he got, you know, because he didn't get the full apology.

• 1:11:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, partial.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so well, partial apology, that can come in many forms.

• 1:11:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's probably the most common form of a partial apology has a but on it.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:11:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 1:11:12Jocko Willink?

  Hey, you know, I'm sorry, you know, I'm sorry, we didn't swing by and pick the other up the other night, but I just didn't even know that you wanted to come.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, kind of like you, it was my fault, I'm sorry, but yeah, it was partially your fault, you kind of thing. And then there's the other one that's like, I'm sorry you felt that way, you know, you know, that one where it's like, hey, I'm sorry you felt that that I was attacking you, you know? But, you know, I didn't mean to kind of thing where it's kind of like, hey, you're because the person doesn't want an apology for necessarily the actual words you said. It was, it was like what you did, like you attacked me with whatever you said, you know, kind of thing. So you can't just say, hey, I can't, I'm sorry you felt that way.

• 1:11:49Jocko Willink?

  Funny, is it, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that you felt that way.

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know?

• 1:11:52Jocko Willink?

  That is a pretty backhanded sort of.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, same thing, but the with the but, well, the one you say, but I'm sorry, but you know, I didn't know. That's kind of like, I'm sorry, but I'm not fully like.

• 1:12:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's the same, that's the same with extreme ownership. That's when people say, you know, look, I'm in charge of the team and this was definitely, I'm in charge of the team when I'm in charge, then then when things go wrong, it's my fault.

• 1:12:16Jocko Willink?

  But I'll tell you what. As soon as I hear that, I'm always thinking to myself.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  Sorry, bro, yeah, sorry. Yeah, and my wife from time to time will.

• 1:12:24Jocko Willink?

  There are no excuses.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's no.

• 1:12:27Jocko Willink?

  If you think about it, when you get somebody that actually believes in extreme ownership, there is, there are no buts on anything that they say.

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  And strangely, I mean, kind of, I guess, coincident, not coincident, ironically, I don't know.

• 1:12:39Jocko Willink?

  Daughter will not allow you to make an excuse. My nine year old daughter, she will call you out if you throw a but, or you say, well, I didn't know when we had to be there, oh, so. You're not taking ownership of that.

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, she hands her own feet too much. It make, yeah, totally makes sense. And if you, it's strangely like if you do it without the but, you know, when you do it just full speed, even if in your head, you believe but, I mean, let's face it, man, you had it coming to you kind of thing. Yeah, just keep it, because that's not what you're doing when you apologize. That's, that's separate from the apology, you know? It's like you're including this stuff, unwarranted stuff with your apology. Don't do that. Give a good apology and make it work.

• 1:13:17Jocko Willink?

  The worst thing is, is it's so obvious and it makes everyone so mad.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:13:22Jocko Willink?

  The receiving end of that is so mad. And you think that it's, you think that it's improving your position.

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:28Jocko Willink?

  Because you're, look, I, look, Echo, I'm really sorry that you showed up to record and, and I wasn't there and I didn't let you know. But, yeah, but I didn't really, I didn't remember texting you or whatever, like, like, but you know, you should have told me that you were heading. That's, that's the way I would have. But you should have told me that we were definitely recording because you didn't really get back to me.

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:48Jocko Willink?

  Like, why would I say that?

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:49Jocko Willink?

  Alls I'm doing is, you know, it's funny, is people always tweet me when a sports coach, they tweet me when a sports coach either takes ownership or doesn't.

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  Overtly does not.

• 1:14:00Jocko Willink?

  Overtly does, because some guy, some sports coaches say, hey, look, I'm the coach. I made some bad calls out there. We're going to get back in the drawing room. I'm going to get this thing fixed. And everyone goes, man, this guy's awesome. And it's just so funny. Everyone says, this guy is awesome. He's taking ownership.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:14Jocko Willink?

  Even people that aren't, even people will retweet something that they, people aren't saying, he's taking extreme ownership. Someone will say, oh, it's good to see a coach taking full responsibility or whatever. They'll, they'll use their own word for it.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:14:25Jocko Willink?

  And then some other knucklehead

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:14:28Jocko Willink?

  will, will say, you know, I am the coach and I am responsible for the team, but if I got players that aren't going to put out during the first quarter.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not the one on the field. You know, you, you gotta carry out this.

• 1:14:39Jocko Willink?

  Totally embarrassing. And everyone says, hey, you might want to learn how to take ownership.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:45Jocko Willink?

  And that's where people, so it's so obvious and yet we still do it. We still throw up the buts. We still want to clarify our position.

• 1:14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:55Jocko Willink?

  Don't clarify your position. Say sorry, take ownership.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  My, my wife will watch these, uh, what do you call it? The Housewives one, not the show, like the reality show ones, you know, the, the whatever Housewives of wherever. And man, riddled, I think that's why she watches it, just to see the train wreck, I think. That's what I think is my suspicion. But man, yeah, they, they're all arguing with each other and then, you know, they're crying. And then the one will say they, they'll just, they'll say the perfect example of the non apology, you know? Every single time.

• 1:15:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  Man, it's like, it hurts your heart to watch, but you kind of like, you kind of dig it. I want, I wonder if this, cause this is what happened with this guy. I just, I just figured it out right now. I really don't know, but this is what I think happened.

• 1:15:40Jocko Willink?

  Okay. We have a theoretical scenario unfolding.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  There was a girl guy relationship.

• 1:15:44Jocko Willink?

  There was a what?

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  A girl guy relationship.

• 1:15:46Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  You know, boyfriend girlfriend scenario, you know, maybe this guy got drunk. The bro, the brother, bro, whatever, got drunk, maybe hit on the grill, maybe something happened, maybe something didn't.

• 1:15:59Jocko Willink?

  Oh, and then it was like, hey man, sorry about what I did with Christine last night. I was super hammered.

• 1:16:02Speaker 01

  Yes, but I was super hammered. Yeah, exactly right. And that's a big one. That's a big but in the apology, you know? But, uh, you know, we all had, I remember some, one time someone did, I won't go into it, doesn't matter, but it's a big one. It's a big deal or it's a big common one where it's like.

• 1:16:19Jocko Willink?

  Wronged by a brother.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  Bro, no, it was my, like, parents friend.

• 1:16:24Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  This lady, and she like, she was talking, she was talking shit about my mom to my dad.

• 1:16:30Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  And I was there, they're hammered or whatever, like some, you know, thing. And she's like totally talking shit like in front of us. But I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. So I'm like, whatever, I'm like a teen, I'm maybe fifteen, sixteen years old, maybe, maybe thirteen, I don't know, whatever. But you know, a, a. Teenager, I wasn't like a three year old, you know? So I heard and I knew what she was talking about. It was rude, it was uncool, it was unsat. As we say, and so I'm like, cool. I go home, I tell my mom, straight up. So my mom's like, oh, okay, you know, tells my dad, blah, blah, blah. My dad tells the lady. And the lady, of course, is all like, oh, no, you know, like, I did this and, you know. So she comes to me and she says, sorry. Right? Like, sorry for this, but we had, you know, we had a lot to drink or whatever.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  And all this stuff. And I remember feeling that, like, how is, like, how does this make it better? You know, when you're like, but we had, so I'm thinking, and I didn't know anything about drinking. I don't, I don't know what it made you sort of do. I didn't really know at that time. So to me, it was like, wait, so wait, when you drink, like, you can do that kind of stuff or what? Like, what's the, the deal? And the, the apology just basically bounced off me like bullets off of Superman or something.

• 1:17:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  No apology.

• 1:17:40Jocko Willink?

  Don't put the butts on those things.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  Yes. So that's what happened with this guy. That's what I think.

• 1:17:44Jocko Willink?

  It's possible.

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  But it is his responsibility, like you said, to be like, hey, I can't hold on to this thing. You know? Like, what'd he say? How do you psychologically reframe it and kill that lingering resentment? Thing is, it's like a scar. You have to, he's like, keeping it a wound.

• 1:17:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's picking at it.

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you gotta be like, that's just a scar. It's like, sure, our relationship is different now. It's a scar now. But, man, I got more important things to think about or do, whatever. Yeah, if you can pull that off, you'd be good.

• 1:18:13Jocko Willink?

  Move on.

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  Next question. Hello and thank you, sir. I'm an inner city math teacher and OG hardcore kid. I successfully approach my students as a team that I am the leader of. How do I discipline some of my key players and at the same time boost, or at least not lower, morale?

• 1:18:34Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. Well, that's cool.

• 1:18:38Jocko Willink?

  I would say this, if you've got kids in the classroom and you've got key players in the classroom, do what I always say to do to people. Put them in charge of stuff, man. Put them in charge, put these kids in charge of things in the class. Not just dumb stuff either. Not just cleanup. Not just scraping the floor, but some legitimate stuff. Like, hey, I want you to come up with a lesson plan for tomorrow. Here's the book that we're looking at. Here's the pages I want you to talk about. Dang. I want you to lead the discussion that we're gonna have in class. Hey, I want you to go over how you've solved this math problems tomorrow. You got, you got some of the problems wrong on the test. I'm gonna teach them to you and I want you to teach the class.

• 1:19:24Jocko Willink?

  Because, obviously, I didn't do a good job. Maybe you can do a better job than me. And you know what? You, you, you're kind of, you're kind of loud? Let's put that to use. I know people listen to you. Here's another thing, kid. The kids look, look at you and they look up to you.

• 1:19:41Jocko Willink?

  Let's use that. Let's try and get kids moving in the right direction. So, that's what I would do in a situation like this. If someone's actually getting in trouble, I wouldn't, you don't do this, you don't do what I'm talking about because they're in trouble. Right? That's a little bit, you can't say, you're in trouble, so you're gonna have to teach a class tomorrow. No, no, no, that doesn't work.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:02Jocko Willink?

  You say, you say, hey, you let that, whatever they got punished for, you use, you know, your punishment. That could be something like taking out trash.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:10Jocko Willink?

  But, you don't wanna throw leadership at someone when they get in trouble. Occasionally, you can do it. Occasionally, you can be like, okay. You know what? You're in charge of the platoon for this week or for these four days of admin.

• 1:20:25Jocko Willink?

  And all of a sudden, yeah, you realize, oh, you gotta come in at 5 o'clock in the morning. Oh, you gotta stay until 1800 at night. Oh, you got these reports too. Oh, yeah, it's like all these things that you didn't think about? That's what you gotta do. And when you get off that restriction, and you get out of that role, you realize, hey, I have a little respect for the boss because I realize what the boss is going through. So, that's what I would do. Have some fun with this. Put the kids in charge of stuff. Give them little assignments. Make them get up. Make them, turn them into leaders. Turn them into leaders.

• 1:20:58Jocko Willink?

  Check. What do you think? One more?

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  One more.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  What do you do when you fail? And how do you handle it?

• 1:21:07Jocko Willink?

  What do you do when you fail?

• 1:21:15Jocko Willink?

  You know, recently, we reviewed that US Army Field Manual on here from like World War II era, and it says in that manual, it says, "Other than death,

• 1:21:35Jocko Willink?

  all failure is psychological."

• 1:21:39Jocko Willink?

  "Other than death, all failure is psychological." Think about that.

• 1:21:45Jocko Willink?

  Just, just, just think about that. This failure, this upset, this, this catastrophe.

• 1:21:54Jocko Willink?

  If you aren't dead,

• 1:21:57Jocko Willink?

  then it's just psychological. It's in your head.

• 1:22:03Jocko Willink?

  Now, this does not mean that you won't lose some battles, because you will. We all will.

• 1:22:12Jocko Willink?

  But it does mean that as long as you don't surrender, as long as you don't give up, as long as you don't quit, then you haven't failed.

• 1:22:26Jocko Willink?

  Just means you've made a a temporary tactical retreat, means you've made a, a brief withdraw

• 1:22:36Jocko Willink?

  so that you can regroup

• 1:22:40Jocko Willink?

  and re-attack.

• 1:22:45Jocko Willink?

  So, as far as I'm concerned, if you get beat, unless you're dead, you are not defeated.

• 1:22:53Jocko Willink?

  And you have not failed. What you've done is you've learned. You've, you've gained experience.

• 1:23:03Jocko Willink?

  And you're still alive.

• 1:23:07Jocko Willink?

  And you have memories to make.

• 1:23:14Jocko Willink?

  So get up and go get after it.

• 1:23:21Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for tonight. So Echo, Charles.

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:28Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of getting after it.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  Sure, getting after it.

• 1:23:34Jocko Willink?

  Can you help us in that category?

• 1:23:37Speaker 01

  Yes. So we are on the path. Part of that, part of that path, like we always say, is jujitsu. It's funny how like you'll say, like, when you suggest someone to, to, or your suggestion for someone to like move on or to like, you know, get out of a rut or whatever, you always say jujitsu.

• 1:23:54Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  And rightly so.

• 1:23:55Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  It'll, it's one of those things, man, where I, I, I'm not a psychologist. I know you know that, but I think that it'll cure various levels of depression. For real.

• 1:24:10Jocko Willink?

  Hey, I've taken a lot of flack over that.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:14Jocko Willink?

  I've taken a lot of flack over that. I think Joe Rogan.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:24:20Jocko Willink?

  When I was on his, you know, we were basically saying like, work out, you know, feel better. And everyone got all mad.

• 1:24:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:24:26Jocko Willink?

  But the funny thing is, Tim Ferriss, who has actually gone through that kind of depression, will tell you the exact same thing.

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:35Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, work out.

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  Work out and do jujitsu.

• 1:24:39Jocko Willink?

  Do jujitsu, for sure.

• 1:24:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy with, you know why I'd say jujitsu even more than just like a regular workout, whatever that even means, but, um, is because you have a challenge that's a little bit more obviously like you against like an obvious challenge, you know, and you against the person. There's that. Okay. And then there's the physical part of it, of course, like the workout part of it, which is one of the best workouts. Like if I wanted to like lose 30 pounds, right, for, I don't know, whatever, if I want to lose 30 pounds, like bad pounds, right? So I, you know, and right now, as of right now, there's no way I would do like a, a, a weight loss workout.

• 1:25:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  I would just do regular weightlifting and I would just do more jujitsu. That's it. A hundred percent. Like, why would you?

• 1:25:24Jocko Willink?

  So I'm screwed. Yeah, I mean, jujitsu is such a good workout.

• 1:25:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, why would?

• 1:25:29Jocko Willink?

  You work out muscles that you didn't know you had.

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  Your whole body too.

• 1:25:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  By the way, whole body.

• 1:25:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  Even your jaw muscles.

• 1:25:34Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  True story.

• 1:25:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:25:36Jocko Willink?

  Everything. Especially you with the jaw muscles, because you're spending a lot of time on the court of the bat talking.

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  Strain or coincidentally, that's another part of it is what I was about to say.

• 1:25:47Jocko Willink?

  Social aspect.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. For everybody. Yeah, for you too.

• 1:25:51Jocko Willink?

  And have a little conversation.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:25:53Jocko Willink?

  Post-training.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, even like between rounds, whatever. It's like you're doing it and sure you can do that at the gym kind of, but it's different.

• 1:26:01Jocko Willink?

  You know what?

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  It's way different.

• 1:26:02Jocko Willink?

  People want to talk before training.

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:04Jocko Willink?

  I protest that. You know how I protest it? I start the clock.

• 1:26:08Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:26:08Jocko Willink?

  Start the clock.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  Fred.

• 1:26:09Jocko Willink?

  I just go beep. Okay, the five-minute rounds are on. You guys are rolling, people. Enough of this chitty chatter.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  Here's how prevalent the social element is.

• 1:26:17Jocko Willink?

  Jeez, look at you.

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  No, no, and you'll agree with it because it happens with you too. So you ever like shaking kids, clock started, beep, clock started, you shake hands with a person and then you just sneak in one question to the person like socially. Not all the time, because like, you know, you remember, like, I'll do it with Greg, I'll do it with you sometimes.

• 1:26:35Jocko Willink?

  Andy and I will joke about that.

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  Oh, like we'll talk about our day.

• 1:26:38Jocko Willink?

  Like Andy and I will joke about, yeah, yeah, like beep, clock starts and it's like, uh, how was work today, dude?

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but that happens naturally.

• 1:26:46Jocko Willink?

  What it means is neither one of us feels like training.

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:49Jocko Willink?

  And so we'll just laugh and then we'll train.

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:26:51Jocko Willink?

  Because we won't, we won't actually have a conversation.

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  Right, but see how you know that it's a thing?

• 1:26:57Jocko Willink?

  It is a thing, yes.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  It's a thing so much that you make jokes about it.

• 1:26:59Jocko Willink?

  Yes, it is a thing.

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  That's how social it is, you know? And man, it's like.

• 1:27:02Jocko Willink?

  You just gotta tie my belt and adjust my gi and put my kneepads back up and, you know what I mean?

• 1:27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:07Jocko Willink?

  That's another stalling tactics.

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, not very social, but yeah, it's stalling for sure. Um, but.

• 1:27:14Jocko Willink?

  So there's a lot of benefits to this thing that we call jujitsu. The jujitsu.

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  Anyway, that was a side note. Anyway, when you're doing jujitsu, of course you need a gi because you're doing gi and no gi. So when you get your gi, what gis are we getting? Are we getting the best gis or are we getting the junkest gis?

• 1:27:28Jocko Willink?

  We're getting the best gis.

• 1:27:29Speaker 01

  Correct. Oh, yeah, big time. Anyway, the best gis are Origin gis. You get them at originmaine.com.

• 1:27:35Jocko Willink?

  Originmaine.com, the all kinds of stuff, all kinds of clothes, including jeans.

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  Yes, American denim.

• 1:27:41Jocko Willink?

  Which, you know what, even like not everyone does jujitsu, not everyone does gi jujitsu, but everyone does have jeans. Now let me ask you the same question you asked me. What kind of jeans are we getting?

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  Best kind, not the junkiest.

• 1:27:53Jocko Willink?

  It's not the junk, what'd you say, junkist?

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  Junkist, yeah.

• 1:27:56Jocko Willink?

  That's not even a word.

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  Yes, it is.

• 1:27:58Jocko Willink?

  Not the junkiest kind.

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  It is. If something is junk, oh, you know what? It's junkiest. That's another one of those subtle differences in, in, in, remember how I told you in Hawaii?

• 1:28:08Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  They're like subtle differences in words. They're only small. They're pretty much the same, but they're subtle differences. That is one of them. Like junk is like-

• 1:28:16Jocko Willink?

  That's a little pigeon.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:17Jocko Willink?

  That's a little pigeon. Cause it would be junkiest.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:28:21Jocko Willink?

  Not junkiest.

• 1:28:22Speaker 01

  Exactly right. So junk is the same as junky. Like it's the, it's like in the mainland, you say junky. Like it's, it's more of a, what do you call it? Like a, not a verb, but um.

• 1:28:30Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, like that, that, that hamburger is real, is real junky.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  Right. So junk on the mainland, the word junk is a noun. It's a junk. It's a piece of junk. It's a pile of junk. It's a noun. In Hawaii, it's a, it's adjective. Like it's junk. Like that's a way of describing it.

• 1:28:51Jocko Willink?

  No, that was noun.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  No. See, it sounded like a noun to you because you're from the mainland. If you say junk, that's why you can have words like it's junker. It's way more junk. Way more junk. Like we don't want the junk, because there's such thing as junk, junker and junkist in Hawaii. In here, it's like, no, it's just junk. It's either junk or it's like not junk, you know, kind of thing. Cause it's a noun. See what I'm saying? Like I said, these differences are subtle. You gotta follow though.

• 1:29:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I know. Cause I thought of like, if you went, if I said, hey, what's that stuff on the side of your house over there? Echo, you'd be like, oh, that's just junk.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  Right. A pile of junk.

• 1:29:22Jocko Willink?

  That's junk. And I get what you mean by that. It's an old lawn chair. It's an old weed whacker that doesn't work anymore. Right?

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:29Jocko Willink?

  There's a couple stuffed animals that no one wants anymore. That's junk.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:29:33Jocko Willink?

  But what you're saying is,

• 1:29:36Jocko Willink?

  hey, how's that car that you just bought?

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:39Jocko Willink?

  How's it work? How is it? Is that thing, you know? Is it dope? And you're like, no.

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  No, it's junk.

• 1:29:43Jocko Willink?

  It's junk.

• 1:29:44Speaker 01

  How was that movie last night? Kind of junk. Yeah. So in regards to genes, you don't want the junk genes or in your case, the junkier, junkiest genes.

• 1:29:55Jocko Willink?

  Junkist is what you said.

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:29:57Jocko Willink?

  That's the whole, the Kawaii version.

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  Hawaii is. That's how, um, nonetheless, yes, you want the best ones.

• 1:30:03Jocko Willink?

  Get the origin genes.

• 1:30:06Jocko Willink?

  And whatever other clothes, you know, forget about supplements too. Supplements, joint warfare, krill oil, discipline, discipline, go.

• 1:30:15Jocko Willink?

  Discipline, go for when you need a little kick and and it's interesting. You and I have both morphed to a situation where discipline. The drink is just the normal. That's just part of the world. That's just part of it.

• 1:30:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:28Jocko Willink?

  I am now drinking, and this is the thing about discipline. It doesn't have four hundred and eighty grams of or four hundred and eighty milligrams of caffeine.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:37Jocko Willink?

  In fact, it has fifteen grams per scoop. This is not the crazy stimulant. That's like, let's face it, jujitsu. You don't want to be all amped up on caffeine going to jujitsu class.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  Negative.

• 1:30:49Jocko Willink?

  That's why. Discipline is so good. Pre-roll.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:30:54Jocko Willink?

  So that's what I've figured out now, because if you have iced tea, which I used to drink a lot of iced tea. Drink Jocka white tea, right? You you just drink that stuff, right? Like, think of when you were a kid, oh, and have some iced tea that had caffeine in it, right? You weren't freaking out. That has way more caffeine than discipline. So what I'm saying is, discipline is now just sort of a.

• 1:31:14Speaker 01

  Just to.

• 1:31:15Jocko Willink?

  Just a day long, like an all day. I must have had. I must have had five bottles of discipline today.

• 1:31:21Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:31:22Jocko Willink?

  That's that's just all day, because I'm sitting there drinking it. You know, I'm I'm working.

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:28Jocko Willink?

  I'm writing, I'm editing, which you which which. All right, editing. Let's face it, like. It writing and editing sometimes is a real chore, a mental chore. It's not fun.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:41Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta get in the game.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:43Jocko Willink?

  That's why I've been drinking a lot of Ben discipline lately, because I've been a lot of writing, a lot of mental thought.

• 1:31:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:49Jocko Willink?

  So anyways.

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  You don't know the mega mix for jujitsu is. Discipline. Okay, water. You can actually add like a little, like a maybe like a third. Cup, whatever, the third of your mix total of like a cranberry juice. Or like you can squeeze lemon juice in there or something.

• 1:32:06Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:32:07Speaker 01

  Water, lemon juice, discipline. And on it has these like minerals and electrolyte mix. One scoop of that. Boom, that's the jujitsu mega mix.

• 1:32:18Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  Oh, Brad will bring you through. Go to do two scoops of discipline, three, if you want to get nuts. You gotta add more water, you know, and then you got that situation going or whatever.

• 1:32:28Jocko Willink?

  There's been times where I've made discipline shots.

• 1:32:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:32:32Jocko Willink?

  Like I, like, hey, okay, you know what? I'm heading to jujitsu. I'm gonna be there in three minutes.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:32:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm just gonna mix up a little shot. It's got three scoops and it's, it's like a shot.

• 1:32:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:44Jocko Willink?

  So I've done that before, but that's also why I made discipline go.

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:48Jocko Willink?

  Because discipline glow is for those situations where you don't want to drink a bunch, but you just want that hitter.

• 1:32:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the go, the pill, that, that takes longer though, right? Cause it's not instant.

• 1:32:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  The instant.

• 1:32:58Jocko Willink?

  That's why I take that one like, I don't know, half an hour, forty minutes prior to.

• 1:33:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:02Jocko Willink?

  Event situation.

• 1:33:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:04Jocko Willink?

  Evolution.

• 1:33:05Speaker 01

  It's like, yeah, the evolution. Mine, I feel like is, or it is straight up. It's like a routine. You know how like you sort of have a routine, I guess, you know, some people do.

• 1:33:16Jocko Willink?

  I got some routines.

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and um, when you.

• 1:33:18Jocko Willink?

  Protocol.

• 1:33:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, the protocol comes in, into play like this. You go boom, okay, I got jujitsu at X, X time, right? I leave the house at X time minus whatever. I drink the mega mix. X time minus whatever, minus, you know, another ten minutes. So it's like the, the, the amount of time it takes to mix it up.

• 1:33:37Jocko Willink?

  Why don't you just tell everyone when to drink it if they're gonna roll? Or do something active?

• 1:33:41Speaker 01

  Oh, the thing is, I don't know.

• 1:33:43Jocko Willink?

  You say forty minutes, you say half an hour?

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  Forty minute, half an hour?

• 1:33:47Jocko Willink?

  I'm saying forty minutes to half an hour.

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  Mine as I leave the house. So I'll have my cup.

• 1:33:51Jocko Willink?

  That's how long it's take to get here?

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  Fifteen, between fifteen and twenty minutes.

• 1:33:54Jocko Willink?

  Okay. But you don't need it to kick in right when you get here, cause you're gonna be chatting with people for the first half hour.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  Correct, yes. Yeah. Well, it's one of those things. It's not like there's this little teeny tiny window of it working, but once it's in the, in the system, right? You're rolling, you know? Oh, yeah. I, you don't even really like feel it like wear off or nothing, like a coffee crash or nothing like that. So, I don't know. I just do it that way. That's been, and it's worked. Like, man, I'll, I won't not do it that way.

• 1:34:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm in that zone right now. Uh, also, don't forget about milk, which is if you need extra protein, which you do, you can get it from milk. Or if you just want a straight up dessert, you can just have dessert. And if you don't think the strawberry milk tastes like dessert, you're wrong. The strawberry milk is dessert. Get some. And some of the other ones, I've just had so much of them. I'm just really stoked on the strawberry right now, mint.

• 1:34:45Speaker 01

  You know what it was?

• 1:34:46Jocko Willink?

  What is your go to peanut butter or is it mint?

• 1:34:48Speaker 01

  Mint, but I'll interchange for variety, whatever that strawberry one came in. Thanks, Brian for that. By the way, so it's like, okay, you know, strawberry slayer. There's a lot of hype. It's strawberry. Cool. I'm not the hugest, um, like, I like, I like the strawberry. I like it.

• 1:35:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:04Speaker 01

  But when there's chocolate, like, why would you do strawberry, you know? If you, if you have chocolate or whatever. So I'm like, but whatever. Let's do it. The strawberry was is, so mix it up. Boom. The same deal. I didn't want to like add extra stuff in there. I just, I wanted the raw deal. So I had regular milk and strawberry milk. See what the hype's all about. Surprisingly, surprisingly good. Meaning, and I don't, you know, that's a general term, surprisingly good or whatever. To me, the strawberry milk tastes closer to an actual strawberry milkshake. The only difference that I could detect is that it's not as like overtly sweet as like one from like a, you know, like you get a strawberry milkshake from a place, you know? It just wasn't as sweet as that. That's it.

• 1:35:50Jocko Willink?

  Put a little, put another half a scoop in there and you'll be in the zone.

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  That's what I thought. Yeah. And that's what I figured.

• 1:35:55Jocko Willink?

  I'm telling you what.

• 1:35:55Speaker 01

  So I, I, I implemented the

• 1:35:58Jocko Willink?

  That hitter.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  The real litmus test. Right. So I, what do you call it? Enlist the kids, right? Have them sit down. I was like, all right, here, this is strawberry milk. Have some, just a little thing. So here's how you do it. You don't say, is it good? Is it not good? Cause if they're not into the

• 1:36:13Jocko Willink?

  Do you want more?

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  You don't even ask that. You just wait. So, cause if you ask, hey, is it good or not good? They're, if they're old enough, they'll tell you what you want to hear. They'll be like, yeah, good. Then they'll go play. Or they won't be into the test at all, which typically they're not. And they'll just be like, no, it's junk. Therefore, you know, in their mind, he won't give me anymore or whatever. You know, you just don't get an accurate, accurate, uh, an accurate reading. So what you do is you hear, you can have some of this. That's it. So they tasted, both of them wanted more. Both of them.

• 1:36:40Jocko Willink?

  That's, it's a miracle.

• 1:36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:42Jocko Willink?

  That's what it is.

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  Really good stuff.

• 1:36:44Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so, and also don't forget you got Warrior Kid Milk. That comes in strawberry and chocolate as well. And it's, it's, it's like legitimately good for your children.

• 1:36:53Jocko Willink?

  So get it for him.

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. Also Jaco White Tea.

• 1:36:57Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:36:58Speaker 01

  Jaco has some tea. It's called Jaco White Tea.

• 1:36:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And it just is like drinking goodness. That's what it is.

• 1:37:05Speaker 01

  Like drinking victory.

• 1:37:06Jocko Willink?

  Drinking victory. It tastes like victory and it's just goodness. Got antioxidants. Gets you a little, gets you a little kicker.

• 1:37:14Speaker 01

  Certified organic too, by the way.

• 1:37:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. So that's that. Cool. OrgyMaine.com. Forgot to say that.

• 1:37:20Speaker 01

  Yes. Also Jaco has his own store, Jaco Store. So you go to JacoStore.com. This is where you can get your Discipline Equals Freedom shirts, hoodies, lightweight and heavyweight hats.

• 1:37:34Jocko Willink?

  Heavyweight hats?

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  No, you know, no heavyweight hats. Um, you know, but you do have those trucker hats with the, what do you call it? Snapback? Or flex fit. So some options there. Anyway, any way you want to represent the path, you can get something there. Rashgrids as well. Jiu Jitsu or whatever you're doing. Boom.

• 1:37:51Jocko Willink?

  You can get a shirt that says good on it, that does not have my head on it, which is a positive thing. Moving in a different direction, a more subtle direction.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  I don't necessarily agree because I think that the one with your head on it is like.

• 1:38:04Jocko Willink?

  That's not very subtle, bro.

• 1:38:06Speaker 01

  No, it's not subtle at all. But it, it does like, no, they both have their benefits. Cause look, when I wear the good one, just, just good. Like the, the people who do say something, they're just kinda like, oh yeah, good, good. They'll just say it, you know? But the one with your head, they'll either ask, oh, who's that on your shirt? Like who is that? Usually it's like, I don't know, you know? Winston Churchill or something. I don't know. You wear a public figure on there. So they're wondering who is that and why that, don't they know?

• 1:38:33Jocko Willink?

  We gotta do that now.

• 1:38:36Speaker 01

  It's the first thing they came to mind. And.

• 1:38:38Jocko Willink?

  I've never seen a Winston Churchill t-shirt, but I'm glad that we got that going.

• 1:38:42Speaker 01

  You need it. All right. Nonetheless, or they'll know who you are and they know that that's what you say. And they'll be like, you know, what do you call it? The book, the one they know and you know?

• 1:38:52Jocko Willink?

  Bonafides.

• 1:38:52Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly right. So I dig both. A hundred percent. But nonetheless, a lot of cool stuff on there. If you, uh, if you like something, get something, as they say. Also subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already on iTunes and Stitcher and wherever you listen to podcasts. Cause a lot of places.

• 1:41:37Jocko Willink?

  You can play a little track that will get you through that moment of weakness. It's on iTunes, Google Play, MP3 platforms of all kinds. And if you want a visual representation to help keep you on the path, check out flipsidecanvas.com where my brother Dakota Meyer is making art.

• 1:42:00Speaker 01

  With layers.

• 1:42:01Jocko Willink?

  And he's putting in the art with layers. That's what it is. There you go. You just, you just coined it. He's made the motto. Art with layers. We're gonna put some Warrior Kid stuff up there for your kids' rooms. We're gonna put some Warrior Kid things up there. So be checking that out. And if you have anything that you want to have on a canvas, let Dakota Meyer know. Hit him up on Twitter. Tell him what's going on. Tell him what you think. He can make, he can make it happen. So there's that.

• 1:42:27Speaker 01

  Also on it, on it.com. So this is where you can get your kettlebells when you're, when we are varying up our workouts. Need more kettlebells? You need more functional fitness type stuff? That's where you get it. Also, like I mentioned before, the, the mineral slash electrolyte mix for the pre jiu-jitsu, actually pre-workout too. Mega mix. This is where you get it. On it.com/jaco. What if you, I mean, you don't, you know what a pre-workout is? It's called a pre-workout?

• 1:42:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:59Speaker 01

  It's like, it has like, uh, like vasodilators and caffeine and stuff in it. It's mainly for like lifting or whatever. You can mix that if you work out. Don't do metcons on this. But if you're just lifting for like hypertrophy or whatever, and you like pre-workouts, you mix that in the mega mix. So you go pre-workout, discipline, two scoops, one scoop electrolytes from on it. Lemon juice, water. Mix that. Report back. Ooh, that's the mega mix right there for lifting.

• 1:43:29Jocko Willink?

  Measure your biceps, report back.

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. Your pump will be out of this world. But before jiu-jitsu, don't do the, the pre-workout. Don't do the caffeine before jiu-jitsu. That's my thing. Anyway, on it.com/jaco is where you get it.

• 1:43:41Jocko Willink?

  Got some books. Got some books coming out. I got one book coming out called Way the Warrior Kid 3, Where There's a Will. I think when this podcast's out, we might even be live or close to it. Yeah. So Way the Warrior Kid 3.

• 1:43:59Jocko Willink?

  Order it immediately. I just got the numbers prior to walking in here. It's already selling like pretty awesome. So appreciate everyone pre-ordering it. But if you want it, order it now so I can print enough for you because the publishing company is Jocko Publishing. Also, we got Way of the Warrior Kid One. We got Way of the Warrior Kid Two, subtitle, Mark's Mission. Way of the Warrior Kid One, subtitle is From Wimpy to Warrior, The Navy SEAL Way. Teach your kid to be on the path. And if you've got a little bit younger kid, get Mikey and the Dragons. Mike and the Dragons will frame your child's mind to be able to overcome fear for the rest of their lives. Just a nice little thing to

• 1:44:41Jocko Willink?

  give them. For the rest of your life, you don't have to be afraid of anything. There you go. There you go, child. You're welcome. Discipline Equals Freedom, Field Manual. That's How to Get After It. The audio of that is on iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play, and other MP3. Extreme Ownership, and Dichotomy Leadership, both those books I wrote with my brother Leif Babin. And we take the experiences we had in combat overseas, the leadership lessons we learned, and we pass them on to all of you. Also, we have Echelon Front, which is our leadership consultancy. And what we do is we solve problems through leadership. And if you want to have us come and work with

• 1:45:23Jocko Willink?

  your company, then go to echelonfront.com. If you want to come to a live experience, you can come to the muster. May 23rd and 24th in Chicago, sold out. You won't be coming to that one.

• 1:45:36Jocko Willink?

  September 19th and 20th in Denver, not sold out yet, but it will. And December 4th and 5th in Sydney, Australia, go to extremeownership.com. All of them have sold out. All of them will sell out. So get in the game early. EF Online.

• 1:45:51Jocko Willink?

  This is our, if you can't make it to the muster, but you want to get granular with your leadership capabilities, then go to efonline.com and we will take you through leadership courses that will pragmatically improve your leadership skills. There's interactive decisions you have to make in those courses. So check it out, efonline.com and then EF Overwatch. If you're a business person and you are looking for leaders, which is what you need in your company, you need leadership. If you want leadership in your company, we have special operations and combat aviation veterans and we are getting them placed into your company.

• 1:46:37Jocko Willink?

  So go to EF Overwatch if you are looking for leaders in your company.

• 1:46:45Speaker 01

  And if you want to cruise hard more with us on the interwebs, Twitter, Instagram and on Facebook, of course, I'm at Echo Charles and Jaco is at Jocko Willink.

• 1:46:58Jocko Willink?

  What are the three platforms?

• 1:47:00Speaker 01

  Twitter, Instagram and then Facebook.

• 1:47:05Jocko Willink?

  What's that last one? Thank you.

• 1:47:08Jocko Willink?

  Thank you. I didn't, I wasn't quite sure what you said. And thanks to everyone out there that wears the cloth of our nation, a military uniform. Thank you for your sacrifice and thanks to your families as well, who also sacrifice to keep the nation safe. And thanks to police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, all first responders for what you do every day. And thanks to your families as well for supporting you so that you all can support us. And everyone else out there,

• 1:47:53Jocko Willink?

  remember that life goes by like a summer day.

• 1:47:58Jocko Willink?

  And you don't have time to get hung up on failures. You don't have time to dwell in the past and you can't preserve the memories perfectly.

• 1:48:09Jocko Willink?

  So make sure you get out there every day and you make new memories by moving forward

• 1:48:17Jocko Willink?

  and getting after it.

• 1:48:21Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.