S3 Ep372: Meredith Kercher & Amanda Knox | From Witnesses to Suspects to Prisoners (Part 3)

In September 2007, 20-year-old American college student Amanda Knox moved to Perugia, Italy to study abroad and experience life on her own. She settled into a stone villa with three other young women and quickly began building friendships with her new roommates, forming a particularly close bond with 21-year-old British exchange student Meredith Kercher. Just weeks later, on November 2, Amanda would find herself standing outside that same home as police and paramedics rushed inside. Not fluent in Italian, she didn’t fully understand what was happening - only that Meredith had been found murdered in the villa they shared. Despite having no clue what was going on, Amanda became the focus of the murder investigation within hours. And what followed would become one of the most controversial criminal cases of the modern era, marked by intense scrutiny, global media coverage, and sharply divided opinions about guilt, innocence, and how justice is pursued when the world is watching. Try our coffee! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. https://www. ThePetsTable.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY55 for 55% off your first box PLUS 10% off your next two!2. https://www. Quince.com/CrimeWeekly - Get FREE shipping and 365-Day Returns!3. https://www. FactorMeals.com/CrimeWeekly50Off - Get 50% off your first box and FREE breakfast for one year!4. https://www. LiquidIV.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for 20% off your first order!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:14Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 0:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, we're diving into part three of the Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox case. And I will kind of give you a quick update of where we are so far. To summarize really quickly what we talked about in the last two parts. So, on the evening of November 1st, 2007, 21-year-old British exchange student Meredith Kercher spent time with friends, watching a movie before returning to the Perugia Village she shared with three other young women. By the afternoon of November 2nd, Meredith had been found brutally murdered inside her locked bedroom. Italian police would soon come to believe that more than just one person was involved and that the people closest to Meredith were not just witnesses, but suspects. Detectives began focusing on Meredith's roommate, Amanda Knox, and her new boyfriend, Rafael

• 1:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Solcito. In the days that followed Meredith's murder, the couple spoke with investigators repeatedly, retracing their steps and answering questions, believing they were helping police understand what had happened. But by November 5th, detectives had grown increasingly suspicious, and they asked Rafael to come to the police station for more questioning, by himself, alone. But then Amanda went with him because she was too scared to stay at his flat alone. That's what she said. That's why she said she went with him, not to watch him, not to make sure he didn't say anything that he shouldn't have, because she didn't want to stay at his flat alone. And neither of them realized that by morning, they would be under arrest. So, this is where we're picking up, and this is where it kind of gets confusing, and the waters get very muddy.

• 1:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I can't wait to hear your take on this, because I know you're not familiar with this, but I did give a little spoiler, a little hint.

• 1:51Derrick Levasseur?

  You did give a little sneak peek.

• 1:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  That they're going to kind of say things to the police that later, they're going to be like, "I don't know why I said that."

• 1:58Derrick Levasseur?

  There's definitely, I mean, my big takeaways from last part and the last two parts, I guess, are to me, the robbery was definitely staged. I don't think there's any truth to that. I think whoever's involved set that up after the fact. I think there's a familiarity and a comfortability with that area at that time in that particular apartment where the the perpetrator would not only know the layout of the apartment and where each person lived in that apartment, but also comfortability from the fact of knowing they could do whatever they need to do, like staging the scene after the fact without worrying about someone coming home. So to me, those are the big things. And also, I'm not trying to be funny here, but the feces in the toilet is also to me significant as well.

• 2:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I think we both agreed that we don't think the person who entered the villa did so by scaling the wall and breaking the window in one of the roommate's rooms. We think that they were probably let in because that whole, yeah, I guess you could climb the wall and do it, but with a large rock and

• 3:04Derrick Levasseur?

  climb the wall with a large, a large rock, you're going to break the window and then Meredith inside the apartment is not going to be alerted that someone now just broke the window and is scaling the wall and trying to come in where she would have had ample amount of time to exit the apartment as this person's coming in. So the element of surprise would be completely gone. There's no other signs of forced entry. And there were a couple of comments that didn't completely understand what we were trying to say, but it's pretty simple. If the rummaging of the clothing in Filomena's room was done after the break in, then the clothes would be on top of the object used to break in because the break in, the breakage of the window would occur

• 3:44Derrick Levasseur?

  before rummaging through her belongings. And therefore, unless they're walking around with the rock after they get inside, While they're searching that room, the rock would be on the ground and then everything that was thrown on the floor after coming into the house would be on top of said rock. And yet that's not the case. What we were describing is that it looked like Filomena's room had been gone through and that her clothes were all over the floor. And to, from what we know, that wasn't the condition of the room, or I'm sure Filomena would have come out and said, yeah, that's how the room was. And yet that rock was on top of all of those belongings.

• 4:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  And the rock had some sort of like paper around it, meaning whoever grabbed it didn't want their fingerprints to be on it. So are you really scaling a wall?

• 4:28Derrick Levasseur?

  That could be, that could be the, that could be someone from the outside or someone who belongs there, but.

• 4:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  It definitely was the person who went in there to stage it to look like they'd broken it. But they're not going to scale a wall, holding the rock that's in paper, and then throw the rock through the window and then the paper's going to stay intact. Because if you look at the pictures, the paper's sort of like half around the rock, but is the paper going to stay snugly around that rock after it's thrown through the window? Probably not. So it looks like it was just placed there after the crime was committed because someone was like, hey, I gotta make it look like somebody did this who didn't have access to this flat.

• 5:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. And from what we know, nothing was really missing other than Meredith's key. They found her phones and the key's missing. So that we have to believe at that point that this random person who had no connection to this apartment prior, went in there, killed Meredith, knew enough to know that locking her door from the outside was not uncommon. And they knew where the key was and knew what that key belonged to, locked the door, took the key with them and then disposed of it later.

• 5:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 5:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Why go, why go through all that?

• 5:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, or kept it. We don't know.

• 5:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Or, or kept it as a souvenir. Absolutely. But they got rid of the phones. My belief is that they took the phones and they took the key because they needed the key to lock the door. And they disposed of the phone, the phones at one location. And the key somewhere else, hoping that no one would ever find it. The phones were easy to find because you could track them. The key would literally be a needle in a haystack.

• 5:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  And the phones should have technically been needle in a haystack because if they hadn't decided to get rid of them in someone's backyard.

• 6:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 6:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know, and if they throw them, they throw them into like a river or something or down in the sewer. They probably never would have been found, but this looked like somebody who was like, hey, I don't want to be walking around with these things for too long. So I'm just going to get rid of them as soon as I can. And that's why a nearby neighbor found them in their backyard and called the police.

• 6:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Without that familiarity of what can be tracked, maybe the, the thought was, oh, even if the phone's off, they could still find a way to track it. And let's say they go back to an apartment or a residence that law enforcement is aware of, or that ties back to someone they've already identified. That ain't good.

• 6:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or they can track the person's path as they walk with the phones, pull surveillance cameras from businesses, homes, streets, whatever. And figure out who it is.

• 6:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that should have been done either way, right? I mean, surveillance cameras from that whole entire area should have been pulled, but I, to me, it's. I don't want to sit here and be like, oh, it's, I don't know how that wouldn't be automatic, but even law enforcement has said that they believe that the, the robbery was staged. Nobody is disputing that. Everyone is on the same page that the robbery element of this is contradicted multiple times within that crime scene and therefore it's not what occurred.

• 7:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. So we can kind of agree, probably didn't scale the wall, probably set it up to look like a robbery.

• 7:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 7:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which means this was personal in some way.

• 7:16Derrick Levasseur?

  They came in through the front door and if there's no forced entry, that means they were let in or came in voluntarily, like they were allowed inside the apartment. Now there is a world where it could be a stranger, right? I thought about this when we got done recording. I don't think this is likely, but there, there is a possibility that someone came to the door, knowing Meredith was alone. Maybe they followed her home, presented themselves as law enforcement or a delivery person, who knows?

• 7:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or someone who knew of her, but she didn't know of them.

• 7:45Derrick Levasseur?

  That, that's what I'm saying. Someone where her looking out the door, out the window, wouldn't recognize this person, but they presented themselves as someone who you'd be willing to at least open the door to. And then once they opened the door, once Meredith opened the door, that's when they were led inside and that's when whatever happened, happened. But to me. This wouldn't be someone that's a complete stranger to your point because it would have to be someone who knew the layout and where Meredith's room was and also that no one else would be coming back. That's where you lose me as far as complete stranger theory.

• 8:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right, kind of like Brian Koberger, right? We know he was watching the Idaho house. He was kind of aware of who lived there, their comings and goings, etc. And I think if somebody kind of knew that Meredith would be alone that night, it's because they had been watching that flat for for quite some time, maybe even a few days.

• 8:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 8:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  And they kind of saw the roommates leave, not come back, saw her come home, nobody else was there.

• 8:41Derrick Levasseur?

  But here's the problem with that one, too. Amanda was there. Amanda was going and coming from that house multiple days. So if you had been watching that house, you wouldn't know for certain what time Amanda's gonna come home at. She could come home any minute.

• 8:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:54Derrick Levasseur?

  And so for me to be in that apartment and doing what you're doing, not only the murder itself, but then the aftermath of like staging the scene, somehow this person knew Amanda wasn't coming home anytime soon. Either they knew she was at Raphael's or they thought she was gonna be at work.

• 9:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, they they may have known she was gonna be at work, but I mean, even Amanda herself didn't really know she wasn't coming home that night.

• 9:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Exactly.

• 9:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 9:18Derrick Levasseur?

  But that's my point. It's just it's too too much of a coincidence that this person would feel comfortable enough to go in there, do the crime. We see that all the time, unfortunately.

• 9:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  And it looks like it would have taken quite a while, too. This won't be a quick in and out thing. Yeah, multiple rooms, the actual murder itself, which looks like, you know, that that kind of didn't didn't wrap up very quickly.

• 9:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 9:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  The staging of the scene, having to go outside and get the rock, having to, yeah, rummage through different people.

• 9:43Derrick Levasseur?

  There's so much here. And then I can't wait to talk more about the feces in the toilet because if it's not Amanda's, if it's not Meredith's, and it's someone else's, then that would indicate that not only did this person come into the apartment and they were led in by Meredith, but there was at least initially some comfort there where this person was, you know, roaming around the apartment, maybe even having conversations with Meredith and had the right to be there at that point.

• 10:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Using the bathroom, yeah.

• 10:10Derrick Levasseur?

  So there's and we gotta, there's gotta be a DNA test for that, for the feces.

• 10:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, yes.

• 10:15Derrick Levasseur?

  You have to, you have to roll people out. You have to see if anybody matches it.

• 10:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  It kind of makes me feel like the person came in as a friend, as somebody who wasn't viewed as being dangerous by Meredith. And then while having a conversation with this person, she's saying, oh, one of my roommates is spending the night at her boyfriend's, one of my roommates is out of town, Amanda's at work, she's probably going to spend the night at Raphael's because that's what happens when they're together. She hasn't really, you know, come home since they met a week ago. So she's probably not, kind of had given them this information.

• 10:43Derrick Levasseur?

  You make a great point right there that I think is worth really highlighting because when I keep saying familiarity and comfortability, it doesn't have to be long-term. It doesn't have to be someone who's been, you know, around this, these people for months. It could be instantaneous, right? Like, like you just said, Meredith meeting this person, inviting them in and sharing too much information.

• 11:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not thinking that they were a threat, yeah.

• 11:04Derrick Levasseur?

  And now that becomes familiar with the area and also a comfortability, knowing that based on what your victim just told you, nobody else is coming back that night.

• 11:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or they knew who else lived there. Maybe they all kind of knew this person and he was like, oh, where's, where's Meredith tonight? Or where's Amanda tonight? Or where's Filomena tonight? Where are they at? Just like asking and then she's like, oh, just not thinking. Oh, Filomena's with her boyfriend, et cetera, et cetera. And, and kind of giving that information because how else would they know how much time they had? And, and, and that they wouldn't be, you know, like you said, somebody walks in while they're mid-murder or mid-staging of the scene. Yeah, very weird. So.

• 11:38Derrick Levasseur?

  This poses another issue though, right? Another issue now, and we're just, we're breaking this down. We're in the episode, by the way, guys. We're talking about it. The other issue that we have now is if there's no communication between Amanda and Meredith to let Meredith know that Amanda is not coming home that evening, even if Meredith volunteered that information to someone, she would be operating under the assumption that after work, Amanda would be coming home, right? Because we know Amanda was texted by her boss, right? But from what, from what you've told me so far, Amanda never relayed that to Meredith saying, hey, I don't have work tonight. They didn't need me. I'm going to stay at Raphael's place. So Meredith wouldn't be aware of that. So again, she can't divulge information she

• 12:23Derrick Levasseur?

  doesn't know. So how would this person know that Amanda and her boyfriend wasn't going to walk in at any moment? Wheels are turning.

• 12:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  The wheels are turning. It's very, this part's very difficult and it keeps getting me. If it's not Amanda, then it has to be somebody who knows nobody else is coming home. And how do they know that? And that's where the sticking point is where it's like, well, who could that be?

• 12:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. And a lot of people do think it's her and a lot of people don't and. As we're in part three right now, I can honestly tell you, not for the sake of just retention here as far as this case, I don't know. I truly don't know.

• 12:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  I, yeah, I don't, I'm, I'm still in that going back and forth place.

• 13:01Derrick Levasseur?

  And usually at this point, I'm leaning a certain way, even though I'm not saying it out loud, i- it's wide open for me.

• 13:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  No leaning.

• 13:08Derrick Levasseur?

  No leaning.

• 13:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Alright, so we know what Amanda and Raphael said during the police interviews, but we only know because of what the police said they said. The interviews were not recorded. So keep that in mind. Alright, Raphael's questioning began first at 10:40 PM on November 5th. Detectives asked him to start at the beginning and retell what had happened on November 1st and 2nd. According to the police, Raphael said that on November 1st, at around 6:00 PM, he and Amanda went into the town center, Piazza Grimana, together. Though, when pressed for more details, he said he couldn't remember what they had done while they were there, or how long they had stayed. Now, according to detectives, Raphael said he went back to his flat without Amanda. She had plans to go to La Chic, where she worked,

• 13:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  to meet friends at around 9:00 PM. He said he sat at his computer, smoked a joint, and spent time online. Then at around 11:00 PM, his father called his flat's landline. At that point, Amanda still hadn't come back, so when Raphael stayed online for two more hours, he only stopped when Amanda arrived at around 1:00 AM. He told police he couldn't remember how Amanda was dressed when she returned, or whether they had sex before going to bed. Now, I don't think I need to tell you that this version of events is completely different than what Raphael and Amanda both told police in earlier statements. Before, Raphael had said Amanda returned to his flat with him that evening, now he was saying

• 14:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  that she did not. So when detectives confronted him about the discrepancy, Raphael told them, quote, "I told you a lot of bullshit in my earlier statement because she'd convinced me that her version of what happened was right, and I didn't think of the inconsistencies", end quote. So now, basically Raphael's throwing Amanda under the bus. Before Raphael and Amanda are like, "Hey, we were together, and then she didn't have to go to work, and then we made some food, we got high, we turned our phones off so we wouldn't be interrupted, we watched a movie, we had sex, we went to bed." Now Raphael's like... That woman was not here until after 1 a.m. I don't even remember if we had sex. I was on the computer getting high. Now, once again, I'm sure all of this can be confirmed. Did Raphael's father call the flat? We should be able to figure that out.

• 15:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Is there evidence that Raphael was surfing the internet on that night instead of, you know, cuddled in bed with Amanda, watching a cute movie? Where, where is the supporting evidence lie? Does it lie with his new version of events or with his previous version of events?

• 15:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, this is obviously significant because I just got done saying, and I had not read the script, that our belief is that the murder more than likely, we all believe it happened the night before and not the day of that she was found. And I just said, oh, maybe between 9 and 11 p.m. because whoever went in there would have at least thought that Amanda would be home by 11. But now you're telling me that there's a possibility that Amanda was at that right. We know she wasn't at La Sheek. So where was she? If she wasn't at La Sheek and she wasn't with Raphael from 9, from, he didn't say what time, but let's say they were at the square or whatever, wherever they were until 7, 8 p.m. He says he doesn't remember how long or when they left.

• 16:18Derrick Levasseur?

  But let's say that they left around 8:30, 9 o'clock. She left and went somewhere. Where did she go? Because she didn't come back until 1 a.m.

• 16:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, she told him, she told him she's meeting up with friends, right? But

• 16:30Derrick Levasseur?

  At La Sheek.

• 16:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 16:31Derrick Levasseur?

  But she wasn't there. So if she wasn't there, where was she?

• 16:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  And she wasn't there at 11, when his father called.

• 16:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 16:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  According to Raphael's news statement.

• 16:41Derrick Levasseur?

  So that's, that's a problem. That's a problem for Amanda. It doesn't look good at minimum. And then you also have to ask the question, why would Raphael lie about this? This is his girlfriend. Why would he throw her under the bus?

• 16:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why would he lie the first time or why would he lie the second time?

• 16:53Derrick Levasseur?

  I understand why he would lie the first time. I don't understand why he would throw her under the bus this time. Maybe he's realizing, oh, this doesn't look good. She could be involved. Is that what he's thinking? And he's trying to save himself because he knows he didn't do anything wrong?

• 17:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  That could be, but if she was with you the whole time, why would you even think that could be possible?

• 17:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, yeah, agreed. And here's the other angle. There's so many variables here. I know, I apologize if I'm throwing people off, but this is how my brain works. Now, we're looking at it from the perspective of, oh, man. Amanda wasn't there from nine to 11.

• 17:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Amanda wasn't there from nine till one.

• 17:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Nine till one, but here's the other way to spin this. Raphael wasn't with Amanda from nine till one.

• 17:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  And this did seem to be a crime. I mean, maybe the Italian police didn't agree, but we agreed based on the sexual aspect of the crime. It seemed to be a crime that a man would commit more than a woman.

• 17:41Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree.

• 17:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  And the police are saying they did it together. It was more than one person.

• 17:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. So just, just putting it out there that I'm not sitting here saying, oh, this is really bad for not, for only Amanda. Cause we're going based on what Raphael's telling us. Is he telling us this? Because he's giving himself an out? I don't know. That's my first thoughts. And I'll shut up now.

• 18:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  So then we go to the next morning, November 2nd. So as for what happened that following morning, Raphael's account remained pretty unchanged and matched what Amanda had already told the police. He said Amanda left his flat that morning to shower and pack because they're going away for the weekend. Then returned around 11:30 a.m. visibly upset and told him what she had seen at the villa. So the two of them went back to the villa together. Raphael saw the broken glass in Filomena's room, blood in the bathroom. And when they couldn't get Meredith to respond, he tried to force her bedroom door open, but he was unsuccessful. He said he then called his sister, who was a police officer. And she told him to call the police, which he did before the postal police arrived to talk about Meredith's phones.

• 18:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Raphael's being questioned. Amanda, she's sitting in the waiting room. At around 11:00 p.m., one of the detectives stepped out of the interview room to get water and noticed Amanda in the waiting room and she's doing weird things. He said that she was doing splits followed by a cartwheel. The detective later told author John Folian, who wrote A Death in Italy, the definitive account of the Amanda Knox case, that, that they were shocked by what they saw. Later, when the same detective saw Amanda again, they said Amanda was stretching and doing yoga. The detective told her that the police station was not a place for yoga. We've dealt with this in some cases, people who actually ended up being guilty. So I don't know if it's the best sort of comparison to make.

• 19:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Like they were guilty, but you know.

• 19:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Singing in the interrogation room, um, doing all sorts of sort of movements with their body, trying to, I guess. I think what it is, is it's a form of. Stimming, you're, you're trying to kind of get the energy out. You're anxious. You're full of energy. You're trying to move. I do this stuff. So it's hard for me to say, oh, that's weird. This is something, maybe not splits because I can't do a split, but it may be probably not a cartwheel either. I'm going to be honest with you. I probably would not be doing a cartwheel inside a police station in the waiting room. But stretching, uh, maybe moving my body around. I just couldn't be, I wouldn't be able to sit there still knowing everything that was going on and kind of feeling like maybe I'm a suspect, maybe my boyfriend's a suspect. Like what's going on? I don't really understand here.

• 20:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know. I wouldn't be able to sit there still and do nothing and just wait. Uh, but probably not a cartwheel.

• 20:23Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no, no, not at all. I, I think we can on one hand say that everyone deals with stress differently, but we could also all acknowledge that doing cartwheels in the police station while being interviewed about your friend's murder is not, not, not right. Is, is disrespectful actually to be in there doing that. That's not, there's no, there's a decorum there where you, you know, you're in there, you're in a public area. You shouldn't be doing cartwheels as a grown woman.

• 20:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Wrong place, wrong time.

• 20:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Sorry. And if Amanda admitted to that, she might have an explanation for it.

• 20:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  She did. Yeah. She's, she's never denied it. She said.

• 20:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Candidly, I still don't agree with it.

• 21:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  She said she was sitting hunched over so long and she wanted to stretch. I get that.

• 21:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Stretching's fine.

• 21:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Stretching's fine.

• 21:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 21:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Cartwheels.

• 21:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Too much.

• 21:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  And splits.

• 21:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 21:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's, it's a little much.

• 21:11Derrick Levasseur?

  It's, it's too much. Yeah.

• 21:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  I, I, once again, I cannot really judge her for this because I would do it, but I also have a lot of self-awareness and I always think that everybody's looking at me and thinking she's weird. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that specifically out of like being self-conscious that people are going to look at me and think I'm weird out of experience. But she was really young. So maybe she didn't realize yet that people saw her as weird. I don't know.

• 21:31Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, and that's fine. But yeah, if, I wouldn't necessarily look at the cartwheels as like, oh, she's guilty, but I would absolutely, if I were the detective, be like, hey, listen, it's not appropriate.

• 21:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Like where's your self-awareness?

• 21:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Where, this isn't the place to be doing that.

• 21:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  So not long after seeing Amanda doing yoga, another detective asked her to come into an office and speak with him. Amanda agreed, then asked when her boyfriend Rafael would be finished and she was told it would be soon. The detective then asked Amanda to go through her phone and write down the names of men that Meredith knew. And Amanda did as she was asked. She listed all the men she could remember. At one point, she mentioned a man who had spent time with the guys in the basement. Remember the four Italian guys in the basement? She didn't know his name or number, only that he played basketball with those guys. Detectives would later determine that she was referring to the Baron, who we discussed briefly in part two. If you recall, one of the basement roommates, Stefano, had mentioned the Baron during his interview. He described the Baron

• 22:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  as a fit South African man who was attracted to Amanda. Stefano couldn't recall the man's real name, but he did remember that he'd once come over to the flat, drank heavily, used the toilet, and didn't flush it. So, obviously, I just kinda wanna get a little detail in here because everybody's asking and saying, "Why haven't we talked about the man who this crime would eventually be attributed to?" So, we're going to get into it in more detail, much more in-depth, in the next episode. But, at this point, I will let you know, the Baron is Rudy Gade, who would later be convicted of killing Meredith. And, there's also people saying, "If somebody's been convicted of this, why do they keep saying it's unsolved?" Well, because as we're

• 23:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  going through this, Derek doesn't know what's gonna come next, so we're kind of taking it as in we're the investigators on the case, looking through the evidence as it's coming. And there is still, or there are still, questions as to whether Rudy Gade even is the person that was responsible. He says he's not. There's no surprise there. And Meredith's family, they still do seem to have some kind of problem with Amanda Knox. They don't speak to her, they don't really speak well of her. So, there does seem to be a disparity between now who's been convicted of this crime and who a lot of people still think may have done it. So, that's kind of where we're going. I don't wanna get too out of myself, or say

• 23:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  that for sure Rudy didn't do it, but there are people that believe he didn't do it, including himself, of course. He says he didn't do it. So, actually, we're gonna take a quick break, and then we're gonna come right back, and we're gonna say what happened with Amanda in this interview room, and what would continue to happen with her in this interview room, because it gets bad. We'll be right back.

• 24:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so while Amanda was writing out names for the one detective, prosecutor Giuliano McNee was asked to come to the station to monitor what was going on. In my opinion, he was not asked to monitor. He came in to, to strong arm and to kind of keep these detectives on both Amanda and her boyfriend Rafael. So at approximately 1:45 a.m., three detectives began questioning Amanda. Now, what they say happened and what Amanda says happened differs. We'll start with the police account, then go to Amanda's. According to the detectives, an interpreter was presented and Amanda was offered snacks and drinks throughout the interview, which lasted for around two hours.

• 24:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because Amanda had previously told detectives she hadn't gone to Le Chic on the evening of November 1st, they asked her more about that because remember Rafael has said that she went there to meet friends around 9. Amanda then told them she received a message from her boss Patrick at 8:18 p.m. saying the bar wouldn't open because there was no customers and that she wasn't needed that night. Amanda said she typed out a reply but never sent it, choosing instead to turn her phone off, which I do think is weird. Why wouldn't you reply and say, "Okay, thanks, um, talk to you soon", instead of just turn your phone off? I can get sending the reply. "I got your message. Thank you so much. I'm gonna actually go to bed early", and then turning your phone off so they can't call you in if they change their mind later?

• 25:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 25:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  But also, if Patrick was telling you the bar was closing because there was no customers, why would you be afraid that they would call you in later? It's one thing if there's a few bartenders on and they're like, "We only need one tonight, stay home", but if he's saying the bar is closing, then there really isn't a chance that you're gonna be called in later. And people did give us some indication of what All Saints Day was to people in Italy and Catholics in general. And they were like, "Why would you think people would be drinking on All Saints Day? It's more of like a Catholic holiday." Well, there's not just Catholics in Italy, right? I mean, I know Italy's a Catholic-

• 26:16Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a public holiday, somebody's drinking.

• 26:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, like if there's a Protestant or a person who's not religious, maybe they still want to go to a bar. It's, it's still, you know, it's still a night and, and people still drink. So, but, you know, still, I understand that on this day Catholics typically mourn the dead and think about their loved ones who have passed, kind of like a Day of the Dead thing, and they're not out drinking, but also- As an Italian who comes from a family that, you know, a father that immigrated from Italy, they drink all the time. Funerals, mourning days.

• 26:51Derrick Levasseur?

  People process their days off differently, you know?

• 26:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, maybe they're just not drinking at a bar. Maybe they're drinking at home. So then the detectives looked through Amanda's phone. And when they did, they did not see the message from Patrick at 8:18 PM. This is a problem. That's the only reason Amanda didn't go into work that night. And it's the only reason why she didn't really have a concrete alibi, because she wasn't at work. So they said all they could see was a drafted message from Amanda to Patrick, which was time stamped 8:35. And when translated into English, it read, quote, "Sure. See you later. Have a good evening!" exclamation point, end quote. So they see Amanda's response to Patrick that was in the drafts, but they don't see the message from him saying, "You don't have to come into work today." Now to the detectives, obviously this stood

• 27:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  out immediately. See you later was not a phrase Italians typically used casually, and they interpreted it literally, as Amanda saying she was planning to see Patrick later that night. To them, this suggested she was lying about not going to La Shique. And then with Raphael's statement that she did go to La Shique, they were like, okay, nobody told you not to come in, and you're telling your boss you're gonna see him later. They didn't get, I guess, that see you later in the United States is like, I'll see you later when I see you.

• 28:04Derrick Levasseur?

  I hope at some point you're gonna tell me that they talked to the boss.

• 28:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 28:08Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, because we're speculating a lot here, but you just ask the source.

• 28:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So according to the police, when the message was shown to her, Amanda lifted her hands to her head, covered her ears, and began crying. And that's when she shouted, quote, "It's him. It's him. He did it. I can hear it." End quote. Shaking her head, she added, quote, "He's bad. He's bad." End quote. All right. So Amanda told the detectives that she'd been at Raphael's flat when Patrick's message came through. After reading it, she told Raphael she needed to go to work, and later met Patrick near Piazza Grimana. They went back to the villa, but due to smoking weed earlier that day, Amanda couldn't remember whether Meredith was already home when they got there, or if she arrived later after they'd already been there. Amanda told detectives that Patrick, her boss, had sex with Meredith.

• 28:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  She said, quote, "He was infatuated with her, but I don't remember if Meredith was threatened first. I remember confusedly that he's the one who killed her." End quote. As soon as Amanda finished saying, "Patrick killed Meredith," detectives ended the interview. She then stretched out across several chairs and fell asleep. Later, Amanda would describe her interview very differently when she spoke to a judge, and we have audio, which we're going to play now, and then break that down further once it's finished.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  I want to clarify what it is that had happened to me in the Questor, the day that I made declarations that didn't make sense, that changed. After the discovery of Meredith, I had spent days in collaborating with the police to try to just give as much information as I could. The day of the fifth, I wasn't called to the Questor. Rafael was called, but I decided to go with him to keep him company, but also because I was scared to be alone.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  When I was there, I had just planned to wait, but the police came into the waiting room and wanted to talk to me more about what I knew, people that I had knew who had come to my house. I gave them phone numbers. After that, they moved me into another room and started asking me the same questions, what I had done that night, asking me for times, the exact time periods, exactly what I did. And it was difficult for me because it was in the middle of the night that we had been called. I was very tired, and I was also quite stressed out.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  And so, they kept asking me the same questions, time periods, exactly sequences of actions, and I did my best to give the same information over and over and over again. At a certain point...

• 31:17Speaker 02

  They, um, they began, the police began to be more aggressive with me. They called me a liar and they told me that I was, of all the things that I kept saying over and over again, they said that I was lying. They said that, they said that I was going to go in prison for thirty years because I was hiding something, but I, but I felt, I felt completely stressed out, blocked because I wasn't lying. I didn't know what, I didn't know what to do.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  Then they started pushing on me the idea that I must have seen something and forgotten about it. They said that I was traumatized. I didn't understand. I became really confused. I tried to re-express, re-explain what I had done, the fact that I didn't have to go to work. At that point, they, I gave them my phone so they could see that I didn't have to, um, I received, okay, there. Because I received an SMS and for that reason, they kept repeating to me that I was lying

• 32:41Speaker 02

  about a, this SMS. I was confused. So, what ended up happening was the fact that I had been pressured so much and I was, I was hit in the back of the head by one of the police officers who said she was trying to make me, help me remember the truth. I was terrified because I didn't know. I, I didn't know what to do anymore.

• 33:23Speaker 02

  And so what ended up happening was, they said they, they were gonna take me to jail and I'm...

• 33:37Speaker 02

  And because of all this SMS, because of all this confusion, they kept saying, "You said this thing to Patrick, we know that you left the house, we know." I just said his name, it wasn't because I was trying to say anything, I just said it because they were...

• 33:53Speaker 02

  After that,

• 33:57Speaker 02

  at a certain point, I asked if I should have had a lawyer, and they said that it would have been worse for me.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  So they asked me to make declarations about what I remembered, but I told them that I didn't remember anything like this, because I was confused, what I remembered was different from what they were asking me to say.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  They asked me for details, and I didn't have details to give them, so they just asked me questions, and I just responded as...

• 34:39Speaker 02

  I was stressed, so what I... in that moment, that I was trying to think of something else, my memories of just random events, of seeing Patrick, for instance, one night, or...

• 34:59Speaker 02

  I wrote these memorials that everyone's putting so much pressure on, so only because I wanted to express the fact that I was confused. I felt like no one was listening to me anymore. And so I wrote these to express the fact that I didn't... I didn't... I wasn't for sure about anything anymore.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  I want to stress the fact that I'm innocent. Meredith was my friend and I would never have hurt her. I'm not the person that the prosecutor says I am. And that's all I want to say. Thank you.

• 35:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, so it's always bothered me that Amanda threw Patrick under the bus even though later she's like, "Yeah, I knew that didn't happen, but they were being aggressive and putting pressure on me." And, you know, she said in the documentary that the detective like hit her in the back of the head and he was like, "Remember, remember." And like hit her in the back of the head. And that obviously threw her for a loop. But in Italy, you still are allowed to ask for a lawyer. They don't sit you down and read you your Miranda rights the same way or, you know, tell you when you're sitting in an interrogation room, "Hey, you have the right to a lawyer." And technically, she wasn't under arrest at that time. She was still considered a witness, not a suspect. The police said that. It wasn't until she, you know, started making these statements that they considered her a suspect. Right.

• 36:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't believe that because they had already talked to Raphael, who had told them, "Hey, she actually wasn't with me." No doubt. I think by the time they were talking to her, they saw her as a suspect. And then she said later she had asked, you know, "What if I got a lawyer?" And they said, "That would have been worse for you." But I would have, by the point I started feeling like, "Hey, they're being aggressive." I would have said, "I want a lawyer." And that way, there's somebody who's legally on my side, who can sort of consult with me on what to do next. I don't understand making a false statement that completely implicates someone else who's done nothing wrong for you, but, you know, they gave you a job. And I don't see why that would be something you would do if it wasn't true and why you would think that that would look good on you because if you knew it wasn't true and you didn't witness that...

• 37:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're eventually going to figure that out and then it's just going to look like, like you lied, right? Again.

• 37:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 37:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  So what did you think of what her, her excuse or her justification for throwing Patrick under the bus was?

• 37:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, I agree with you as far as I don't understand why she would throw Patrick under the bus. I also believe that more than likely a detective was slapping her in the head. I can absolutely see that. And that's uncalled for and not professional. And, you know, I think we can all agree on that. Here's what I'm gonna say, and it's gonna sound a little heartless, but it's, it's the truth. It's how I feel. Okay. We're not talking about six months, a year later, where she's having to remember what happened on these particular nights. And we're not talking about a week period. We're talking about one specific day and one specific night. That's it. I'm hearing too much of, I don't remember, and I'm confused. It's too much for me. It's not that complicated. You originally told law enforcement that you were with your boyfriend all night. Now your boyfriend's coming in here and telling us that you weren't with him. And now suddenly you don't remember

• 38:12Derrick Levasseur?

  a lot. You don't remember anything really. And I'm not saying that Amanda is responsible for this. But just up to this point in the story, I don't know how any of you would expect me not to hear this and hear the inconsistencies in both of their statements, and not at least at minimum think something doesn't smell right.

• 38:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So according to her, when they first brought her in there, she just kept saying the same thing over and over again.

• 38:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 38:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  They were asking her the same questions. She was responding in the same way, but it kept going. Like, so basically she was feeling, that's not good enough. Like, my response to them isn't good enough.

• 38:47Derrick Levasseur?

  But let's go back further, Steph. She originally told detectives, she never left the boyfriend's flat. Right? How do you mess that up? If you didn't leave there, you would know. And if you did leave there, regardless of how high or drunk you were, you would at least know, I wasn't in the best condition, but I left for a little bit. But she deliberately told them something different.

• 39:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 39:08Derrick Levasseur?

  And now the question becomes why. And now in hindsight, she's realizing that the story is falling apart. She has her boyfriend coming in here and telling them, she wasn't with me for multiple hours.

• 39:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  And they're saying they don't see the text from Patrick on her phone.

• 39:20Derrick Levasseur?

  They don't see the text from Pat. She's saying there was an SMS. I have to assume there's something, because she's doing this press release or whatever, this news conference. But overall, at minimum, I'm hearing a lot of, I don't remember, I'm confused. Amanda Knox was not six years old. She was a woman, a grown woman, who was living alone in a foreign country.

• 39:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm, I agree.

• 39:41Derrick Levasseur?

  You're old enough to recall what you were doing. It wasn't like you were obliterated out in the middle of the bar scene. You smoked a little bit, you did whatever you did. I can tell you right now, I've never been that bad where I wouldn't remember where I was, like as far as what house I was at. So, I have a problem with this, and I'm not saying, I truly don't believe, I still don't believe she's the offender here, if I'm being honest. I don't know what's going on, but she's hiding something. She's not telling the truth. Now, is that because she is involved? Or is it because she was doing something else that she doesn't want Rafael to know about? Like, was she seeing another man? Does she have nothing to do with Meredith's death? That is also possible. But to me, she is not telling the truth, and doing this press release later, this conference,

• 40:24Derrick Levasseur?

  and still saying, "I was confused, I don't remember." That's not good enough for me.

• 40:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  I agree, and I, this has always, always, always bothered me. Because, now you've made up a whole story, right? You met with Patrick, you guys smoked some weed, then you went and he was infatuated with Meredith, and, and then you know, you can't remember, was Meredith asking? Yeah, it's, it's pretty specific. Like, you had to create this whole other story. And why? Because if you kept answering the questions, and you were answering them consistently, and they kept saying, "No, that's not good enough," and asking the same questions, and then getting aggressive with you, at that point, I don't care who you are, you say, "I don't know what else to tell you guys, I've told you everything I can. I want a lawyer." Because there's a miscommunication here, maybe you guys don't understand, but I've told you everything I can. She's saying that they're telling her she's lying, so they told her that so much,

• 41:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  that eventually she started to feel like, "Maybe I am."

• 41:17Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm okay with that, false confessions happen. Here's the problem, I'm gonna be repetitive here. It doesn't excuse you initially, under no pressure, telling law enforcement a flat-out lie. Telling them that you were somewhere where you weren't. And that's a problem.

• 41:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, you're saying, you're saying Raphael's apartment?

• 41:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Rob saying initially, when she's a witness.

• 41:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Listen, Raphael's gonna come out later and say, oh, she was with me. And I don't know why I said that during the police interview.

• 41:43Derrick Levasseur?

  And we're gonna get there, but I'm saying right now in the story.

• 41:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 41:46Derrick Levasseur?

  If I'm the investigating officer, you originally told me, under no duress, that you were with your boyfriend all night. That you got a call from work or an SMS from work. You didn't have to go in. So you guys decided to stay in, watch movies, have sex and go to sleep. Now I bring your boyfriend in, he's saying you left. You're coming in after him and confirming, yeah, I did leave for a little bit and I was with this boss of mine. He liked my roommate Meredith, he had sex with her and he did it. I could go along with the whole duress, false confession at the end there, but why did you lie to us initially? Why is your boyfriend telling us you're not there now?

• 42:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  So you're saying from the detective's point of view?

• 42:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 42:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now it's, it's looking like there, I do need to treat you like a suspect.

• 42:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Of course.

• 42:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  The stories are changing and your whereabouts for when this murder happened are unaccounted for at this point.

• 42:34Derrick Levasseur?

  You are a 20-year-old woman. Very intelligent. And from what you've told us, you were not out partying all night. I don't know. I don't remember. I don't think anybody's buying that. Anybody listening or watching this right now is buying that. I don't remember what happened a week ago or a couple of days ago. Come on, Stephanie. I don't recall where I was? We're not even asking you to remember the specific time that you got there. We're just saying, where were you? Oh, I was with my boyfriend all night at his place. Oh, now I don't remember if I left. What? So that's where I'm at right now. It's extremely frustrating.

• 43:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  But what do you think about Raphael saying that she wasn't there, even though later he'd come out and say she was? And I just made those statements because I was under stress.

• 43:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Here's what we know for certain. Raphael and Amanda are lying at some point, whether it's whether they were together or not. We know they've given through, they're going to eventually, as you're alluding to, going to give three stories. So one of those stories can't be true, right? You can't be there and not be there at the same time. So regardless of what you think of them, at some point during this investigation, they lied to law enforcement. And the question is, why? Is it just because they were scared and they felt like the walls were closing in on them? And they felt like they had to confess or turn on each other in order to save themselves? It's possible, right? It's happened before. Again, we've had false confessions, but something doesn't smell right here. That's all I'm saying. And I don't know what it is. Maybe it'll make more sense in a little bit, but as of right now, I get extremely frustrated and triggered, if you will, by,

• 44:05Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know, I don't remember, because I've been in interrogation rooms where I asked someone, where were you last night? And their response, because they can't think of a better one, is, I don't remember. You don't remember where you were six hours ago? Nah, I had been drinking, I don't remember. Bullshit.

• 44:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  So what if I told you that CBS has reported that the detectives who were interviewing Amanda and Raphael were trained to break down mafia members? So basically their interrogation techniques were probably a little intense, a little aggressive, like very aggressive, actually. And

• 44:35Derrick Levasseur?

  I believe that.

• 44:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  I could understand being a young person in the presence of authority figures who are responsible for investigating and the authority figures are telling them, you're lying. And as Amanda and Raphael, maybe you're thinking, well, they must have something that proves I'm lying. So did I lie? Now personally for me, I don't think that I would ever, I would ever be like, well, what do the police have that that tells them I'm lying? Why are they so sure that I'm lying? But once again, I do true crime, so I know that police lie and I know that they put these pressure tactics on. And, and I know these things.

• 45:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Good cop, bad cop.

• 45:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  As a 20 year old, a 19 year old, who doesn't really have a lot of familiarity with the, the justice system, especially in, in this country, would you think, I mean, Could I have possibly, would you let them gaslight you basically into believing that that they that you were lying? I don't know if I would, yeah.

• 45:24Derrick Levasseur?

  All I'm saying is this, very binary for me. I'm not disputing anything you're saying as far as the tactics and her feeling like she has to give them a name or she's never gonna leave. I'll give her a pass on that, that she could have just thrown out Patrick's name because she was scared.

• 45:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  She just wanted it to end, yeah.

• 45:39Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't necessarily disagree with that being the case. My problem is this, when she was originally interviewed as a witness, she said she was at Raphael's apartment the whole time. At minimum, she's telling them now that, oh, she did leave. And I'm assuming that's based on the fact that at some point they said Raphael just told us you left. So she's like, shit, yeah, I did leave, but that's, you know, I don't remember where I went. And that's eventually after the aggressive and un-unprofessional tactics took place that she threw out a name. But I don't, there's a big difference between Patrick did it and not remembering what location you were at.

• 46:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or she said she couldn't remember if Meredith was there when they got there or if Meredith came home after they got there.

• 46:21Derrick Levasseur?

  That's fine. Not knowing the exact time, I can't remember, even that's a stretch for me if I'm being honest. Like you don't remember if when you walked in, Meredith was already there or not, but okay, let's give her a pass on that.

• 46:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  And she said it was because of marijuana she'd smoked earlier in the day. Now, listen, I have a little experience with marijuana. And what I can tell you is maybe if you took a few edibles earlier in the day, you'd still later in the day be kind of out of it and like, where am I? But if you just smoked marijuana, the effects of that, they they fare, they they wear off pretty much within like 15 minutes, 45 minutes, depending on your metabolism and and your, I guess, your usage of the substance, how often you use it, you're not smoking marijuana earlier in the day and then hours later still being like, whoa, where am I? No, I don't, I don't find that to be.

• 47:07Derrick Levasseur?

  And I just want to be clear before we move on. In no way, shape or form is my passion about this particular topic and me inferring that she's guilty of anything. My frustration is with the lack of direct responses and and remembering where you were and just being direct about what happened. Regardless of how it may look, hypothetically, let's say she left and she went and saw another guy for a drink or whatever. At this point, you're being questioned about murder. Just say the truth. Deal with those consequences later. At minimum, someone is not telling the truth here, and I'm wondering why. It doesn't mean they're guilty of murder, but they're lying to police, which is almost causing more problems for them.

• 47:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Of course.

• 47:43Derrick Levasseur?

  So that's my frustration. I hope I'm explaining that correctly. I very well could come out of this and say, Amanda had nothing to do with this. I'm still there. But I just, I'm frustrated by the, the directness of her responses, and I should say the lack thereof, and the, I don't know, I don't remember, because what that does is it, it makes you even look more suspicious.

• 48:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  So. Yes.

• 48:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Just be direct, even if it makes you look bad because you made some, you know, morally questionable decisions as far as your boyfriend or whatever. Who knows? I don't know. But just be honest. That's the best option here.

• 48:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  So for me, it's the, the moral, the lack of a moral compass of throwing somebody else under the bus and trying to pin a murder on them.

• 48:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's terrible. Yeah, I agree. And she's even admitting that, like, that she was, she was lying.

• 48:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I find that to be, I find that to be very, very distasteful. I've never understood it. I can understand at getting to a point where you're so overwhelmed and you're so stressed out and there's language bringing, you don't know what's happening, where you're just kind of like fold up and you're like, I don't remember anything now. I don't remember. I don't even know what, which way is up. But to come up with a whole third person.

• 48:47Derrick Levasseur?

  And just throw their name out there that they killed someone.

• 48:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Pin it on them, come up with a whole story. Yeah. That is, is pretty reprehensible for me, so.

• 48:56Derrick Levasseur?

  What does that say about her character in that moment at 20 years old? I mean, listen, we've all been 20. We've made some bad decisions, but that's pretty bad.

• 49:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  But she's smart. So the, when I think about, you know, confessions that came out and, and were under extreme police stress, I think of Jesse Ms. Kelly Jr. from West Memphis 3, right? That's one of the, you know, the ones that really stands out of my head.

• 49:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 49:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  But we know Jesse Ms. Kelly Jr. had a very low IQ, like that of a child's.

• 49:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 49:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Amanda does not. Very different circumstance. Amanda does not.

• 49:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Amanda's over speaking a second language.

• 49:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's very smart.

• 49:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Very smart, knows what's going on. Doesn't mean she's not susceptible to being in fear. Like, I, I think there's a lot of validity to what she's saying. I just think that there were, at minimum, some mistakes made here where she was trying to skate the truth, even if she's not involved, and it almost caused her more problems. So, we're going to be impartial the whole time, but I'm also wondering how we got to the point where she was arrested for murder. And I will tell you this. I can kind of see where it's coming from.

• 49:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, of course.

• 49:58Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, I like this wasn't just pulled it out of their ass. There was things here that were very suspicious optically, just looking at it. And so I'm starting to understand at least that question of how do we get to the point where Amanda Knox was not only arrested for this murder, but eventually

• 50:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Put on trial.

• 50:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Put on trial for it. So I'm trying not to spoil anything here because I, you know, I know the overview. But overall, now I'm starting to understand that at least.

• 50:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm. All right. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 50:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So Amanda's been in the interrogation room now with detectives for quite a while. The prosecutor, Giuliano McNee, he's there too. He's been watching this, right? So at 5:40 AM, McNee, he decided to interview Amanda himself, also with an interpreter present. So he came in, he read Amanda her rights, and he asked her whether she wanted an attorney. She said no. This is, this is once again, always bothered me. If you realize you just made a statement implicating someone else for a murder

• 51:03Derrick Levasseur?

  You're getting slapped.

• 51:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  And you can't remember, and you're getting slapped, and they were aggressive, and you're tired, and you're stressed. Just say, yeah, I want a lawyer. I want to talk to a lawyer and run it by them and, and you know, kind of clear this out. But she said no. And then she agreed to make a written statement. Okay? So Amanda then told McNee that after she and Patrick went to the villa, Patrick and Meredith went into Meredith's bedroom. She said she stayed behind in the kitchen. At some point, she heard Meredith screaming, which frightened Amanda so badly that she covered her ears. And after that, her memory fell apart. She said she couldn't clearly recall exactly what she heard, how long everything lasted, or what happened next, saying everything in her head felt confused and jumbled.

• 51:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Amanda said she wasn't sure whether Rafael was there with her that night. What she did remember was waking up in his bed the following morning. So after Amanda finished making that statement, the interpreter read it back to her. So she knows what she said and then she signed it. And with that, Giuliano McNee made the decision to arrest three people. Amanda, Raphael and Patrick.

• 52:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Wow. Wow. This wasn't just a spontaneous utterance. She signed a confession for it. And to the point where she knows that Patrick's about to get arrested for this murder. And doesn't step in at any point to say, I'm sorry. Don't do that. He wasn't even there.

• 52:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  She signed a written confession after being asked if she wanted a lawyer and saying no. And then restating her same story and then signing it.

• 52:35Derrick Levasseur?

  And watched Patrick get arrested for this murder. Okay?

• 52:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, at that point, Giuliano McNee wasn't entirely sure. How Raphael fit into the situation, but based on Amanda's statement, he believed that all three were involved somehow. In his view, Amanda was telling the truth because her statement matched his initial theory. That a woman who lived in the house had allowed the killer to enter and kill Meredith. And I mean, once again, based on what we've even come to kind of theorize.

• 53:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes. I don't believe Amanda did it. I don't believe Amanda did it, but she would have a familiarity and know that nobody else is coming home. She would also have a familiarity with the locking situation. So yes, I can understand where he's coming from.

• 53:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Just outside of even thinking whether or not Amanda did it, when we look at the situation and we're like, yeah, it's probably not possible that somebody scaled the wall with that rock and broke in. And based on the way the glass fell, it doesn't appear that the rock came from outside. So whoever entered, entered through the front door and was let in by someone.

• 53:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 53:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  And now Amanda's saying, I'm that someone.

• 53:32Derrick Levasseur?

  It would line up with the feces too, right? Initially, everything was good. Everything was friendly. Someone used the restroom, forgot to flush. And then everything goes to hell.

• 53:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nobody was scared or trying to get out of there fast because they knew where everybody was and yeah.

• 53:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Does check a lot of boxes, doesn't it?

• 53:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, it does. So McNee then filled out arrest warrants accusing all three of aggravated murder and aggravated sexual violence. As justification, he cited contradictions in Amanda's statements, her accusation against her boss, Patrick. Patrick's nonexistent text message to Amanda, her reply in the drafts. He also listed Raphael's sudden withdrawal of the alibi that he'd previously given Amanda. And the fact that Amanda and Raphael's phones had been turned off at nearly the same time that evening.

• 54:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Even though they weren't together allegedly.

• 54:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Even though they weren't together according to Raphael. So I think Giuliano McNee is thinking, okay. Well, Amanda says that Rafael could have been there. She doesn't remember. Rafael said he wasn't there and he was at his apartment all night.

• 54:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Got a call from his dad.

• 54:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  But their phones turned off at exactly the same time. And how did that happen? Or around the same time? And how did that happen if this wasn't coordinated? Or they weren't together?

• 54:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Right? I mean, when you say it like that, pretty strong case.

• 54:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  So McNee wrote that although no forensic testing had yet been completed, two pieces of physical evidence from the scene could potentially implicate Rafael. One was a jackknife found when he was searched at the station, which McNee believed could have been used to kill Meredith. The other was a shoe print found in Meredith's room, possibly from a Nike Air Force One. Now McNee knew that Rafael owned a similar pair. However, at that point, no comparison between Rafael's shoes and the print had been done. It was still just an assumption.

• 55:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Nothing about the feces, huh?

• 55:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, not yet.

• 55:15Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, I'm really fixated on the poop.

• 55:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  I am too, because...

• 55:18Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, that's pretty good DNA evidence.

• 55:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  It feels like whoever left that there...

• 55:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Might have some explaining to do.

• 55:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it was probably present.

• 55:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 55:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  That day.

• 55:25Derrick Levasseur?

  You have to assume it wasn't in the... Yeah, it wasn't in the toilet for three weeks.

• 55:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. So, once the warrants were completed, Amanda and Rafael were arrested at the police station. Before being transported to prison, Amanda wrote a letter to McNee with an updated statement. In it, she said that on the evening of November 1st, she went to Rafael's. They smoked marijuana, so she wasn't quite sure what else happened that day. Once again, I really have a big problem with this. Like, how much weed are you smoking? That your memory is a complete blank space? How much? Like, unless you fell asleep, but then you knew you fell asleep.

• 56:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Listen, I've smoked weed before. I know it's probably no surprise to anyone. I know you have dabbled in smoking weed.

• 56:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  To say the least.

• 56:09Derrick Levasseur?

  And I know there's people out there watching right now, listening, who's smoking weed as they listen to this. So, I want your opinions on this one. Honestly, are we just completely off-base here? Is there a strain of marijuana that's out there where you just completely forget what happened before, after smoking it?

• 56:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's called the mind eraser, yeah.

• 56:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Really?

• 56:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, I just made that up.

• 56:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, because I was in narcotics for five years and... Dealt with a lot of marijuana and I never heard anybody come back to me and say, yeah, when I take this stuff, I can't remember what happened the day before or the day after.

• 56:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, there's times where I'm like,

• 56:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Somebody's greened out. I've had people greened out on me, but not like this.

• 56:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  But you know, you got greened out. It's a very specific experience that you will never forget again, and you will do everything in your power to make sure it never happens again, because it's very unpleasant.

• 56:55Derrick Levasseur?

  I have no doubt, we will have someone in the comment section say it's happened to me, but then when we think about everybody who smoked weed, how often this happens to have it basically occur with two people on the same night at the same time. Uh, because Raphael, apparently he's not going to remember what happened that night either, if he's going to be in giving contradicting statements, but it, it, as you have said, it's very hard for me to swallow this, that she doesn't remember anything.

• 57:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  So there's gonna, there's gonna be a point where like, you know, maybe I'm a bit, I'm a little high and I go into the kitchen for something and then I'm like, what am I here for? Right? That's the extent of my forgetting. But the next day,

• 57:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Did I just eat, did I already eat that chicken? Because I can't find it.

• 57:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Did I come in here to get food? Did I come in here to get a drink? Did I come in here to check the doors or turn the lights off? I don't know. But then the next day, I'm going to remember amusedly. Remember when you went into the kitchen, you forgot what you were there for, you know? But like, I'm not going to forget what I did.

• 57:48Derrick Levasseur?

  But let me ask you something. If you happened to leave that night and come over to my house to hang out, to play video games, would you remember that?

• 57:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 57:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, just wondering.

• 57:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, of course. I don't know what else you would be taking with this marijuana. You, you'd have to be taking something else.

• 58:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Agreed.

• 58:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Some sort of prescription drug.

• 58:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Something stronger.

• 58:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Something that would even, and even then, I, I have a hard time believing that somebody just has a complete blank space in their memory.

• 58:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 58:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Um, okay. So Amanda is now saying, hey, I did go to Raphael November 1st. Uh, we smoked weed. Wasn't sure what else happened that day. So she doesn't know what the hell happened that day, but she does remember something. She remembers eating food together at Raphael's flat and noticing blood on his hand, which she thought may have come from the fish they had eaten. I can't take this. I can't. What? Was your fish bloody Amanda? What? Like even if maybe a steak, but a fish just bleeding red blood all over? Would you not have noticed that there was something going on with your with your fish?

• 58:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 58:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Um, and then there was blood on the plate and you don't remember anything, but you remember eating and there's blood on his hands. So you can remember this specific detail and you can remember thinking maybe it was from the fish we had. So now you also remember what you ate, but nothing else. You remember nothing else. So once again, Amanda, like Rafael, apparently now she could not remember if they had sex, which I think is a problem for this relationship because um, now neither one of them can remember if they had sex on November 1st. And before both of their stories were that they'd had food, gotten high, watched a movie, had sex, or I'm sorry, made love and then went to bed. But now

• 59:31Derrick Levasseur?

  And that was initially like within hours.

• 59:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. But now neither of them can remember if they did have sex that night where it's like, was the sex not memorable? What's happening?

• 59:40Derrick Levasseur?

  What's going on here?

• 59:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Amanda said she knew they had showered together though. And she said they went to bed late and woke up around 10 a.m. the next morning. So Amanda wrote that the confession she had made earlier was not truthful. She said, quote, "I'm very doubtful of the entity of my statements because they were made under the pressure of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion. Not only was I told I would be arrested and put in jail for 30 years, but I was also hit in the head when I didn't remember a fact correctly after many hours of confusion." End quote. Amanda wrote, quote, "I am unsure if the statements I made are real things that happened or are just dreams my mind has made to try to answer the questions in my head and the questions I am being asked. But the truth is I am unsure about the truth." End quote.

• 1:00:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  The one thing that Amanda said she was certain about was she did not kill Meredith.

• 1:00:30Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm going to be very interested to hear the people who have who have followed this case, maybe surface level, and have come to the conclusion that Amanda's innocent and I may come to that same conclusion, by the way. But if they are going to be familiar with any of this, or they just know that she was arrested and whatever happened, and now she's a free woman, I'm wondering if they're going to be like, wow, I didn't know all of this. Or I'm wondering if this is like common knowledge or it's just a crime weekly.

• 1:00:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Most people who are familiar with the case are familiar with.

• 1:01:01Derrick Levasseur?

  These inconsistencies?

• 1:01:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Hmm. Okay.

• 1:01:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  But I think also a lot of people have this negative view of the police where yes, we've seen, especially if you're into true crime, you've seen case after case where the police will sort of form confirmation bias and they will interrogate suspects incessantly and you know that sometimes this does elicit false confessions.

• 1:01:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, they're not wrong. I mean, I try to police the police as much as I can. There are definitely officers who in their mind determine what happened the minute they show up and then find the evidence to support that instead of doing it the opposite way. The problem here is one of their main witnesses, even if they had some suspicion about her, told them one thing and then the boyfriend told them the same thing. And within a very short period of time, they're both now contradicting their statements. One saying they weren't even together, the other saying a third party killed her and she was present for it. So that's a big, it's a big jump.

• 1:02:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  And we were talking about it a little bit when we went to our last break and we said, you know, to be fair, like a lot of people give the Italian police in this case some shit and they're like, ah, you arrested the wrong people and the right person came forward. But if you even initially suspected that Amanda and Raphael were involved at the beginning of this investigation and then they gave their alibis, they gave their stories of what happened the night of November 1st and then you get them into an interrogation room and everything falls apart. And suddenly Raphael's like, she wasn't with me. And suddenly Amanda's like, I was at the flat where Meredith was killed with Patrick and he did it. And this is how he got in and this already supports the evidence that you're seeing. You would definitely be like, these people did it, right?

• 1:02:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Of course, of course.

• 1:02:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  So we can't really be too mad at them, at least at this stage, for arresting these people and going after them thinking they did it because Amanda and Raphael went into the interrogation rooms and just completely threw both of their alibis out the door and made up new stories.

• 1:03:00Derrick Levasseur?

  I think we can, on one hand, acknowledge that the, just the facts of what allegedly they both said, you would absolutely go down the road of they're guilty. However, we can also disavow the tactics used, right, to get that information. The problem is some of that information was obtained before these alleged tactics took place, right? She never said that when they were initially interviewed, they were being slapped around and pressured to say something. If it turns out that that's not true, the question is, why were you acting that way and lying then, when you weren't in a room being interrogated, being slapped around?

• 1:03:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  You mean their first story, when they said they were at the flat all night?

• 1:03:36Derrick Levasseur?

  The first initial story, which is always going to be, if you're telling the truth, the most accurate, because it's the most fresh, right? You're gonna, what, what'd you do 12 hours ago? Where were you last night? Is it gonna be easier to remember that then, or three days later, four days later?

• 1:03:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  And she had a very clear memory of that when she was first questioned.

• 1:03:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, so I, I am, I'm, I'm not even torn, I'm very clear on that there's two different questions here. Do I agree with the tactics being used by law enforcement? Do I believe that they were using those tactics? I absolutely believe that they were. I absolutely disagree with those tactics being used, but I still also come back to, Amanda, why are we giving conflicting stories? As you said, she had multiple opportunities, even in a very stressful situation, to have an attorney present and stop that questioning, and she chose to write a written statement. So I have concerns, I have concerns, but there's gotta be more here. I know you, you're saving something, which I love you and I hate you for it, but there's more to this story that I don't have yet. I think my frustration at this point

• 1:04:34Derrick Levasseur?

  is warranted, but it may change based on further information. That's what I'm thinking.

• 1:04:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  I also have a problem with the police arresting Patrick before bringing him in for questioning.

• 1:04:43Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt.

• 1:04:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I find it weird that just based on Amanda's statement, like he was there, that you're just gonna go and arrest him, because that's what they did.

• 1:04:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Nothing to support him being there, other than her statement. Correct, I agree.

• 1:04:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because that's exactly what they did. So while Amanda and Raphael were being transferred to prison, officers went to Patrick's home and they arrested him in front of his 18-month-old son. And obviously, Patrick's completely confused about what's happening. And he kept asking, like, why am I under arrest? Why am I being arrested? And officers would only tell him that they, they knew, or he knew, what he had done. So I have a problem with this. They should have gone to Patrick's house and been like, hey, you know, we got some questions, come into the station, this is what this girl's saying about you. But to go there and be like, ha, you know what you've done, and arrest him in front of his family, with only Amanda's word that he'd been there. That's a problem. So, once all three arrests had been made, the Perugia Police Chief held a press conference and he announced the arrests and said that in his view, the

• 1:05:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  investigation was quote, "substantially closed," end quote. Despite Amanda already recanting, despite no DNA or forensic results being back, despite not even speaking with Patrick to determine whether he had an alibi, and despite not even knowing how Raphael fit into the case, they were like, "We can, we can wrap this up. It's pretty much done."

• 1:05:54Derrick Levasseur?

  That one's gonna come back to bite him in the ass, huh?

• 1:05:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it definitely is. Alright, we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back. We're back. As news spread through Perugia, people were stunned by Patrick's arrest. Obviously, because like, where does Patrick fit in?

• 1:06:12Derrick Levasseur?

  So was Patrick.

• 1:06:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Patrick also stunned. Probably Amanda, too. Patrick was, you know, he had a good reputation. He was a well-liked bar owner. He was friendly. He was devoted to his family. No one could picture him being involved. But, the reaction to Amanda and Raphael was very different. People did seem to believe that those two could be involved, though most of the anger was directed at Amanda. So in the days and months that followed, Amanda would become the most recognizable and most hated woman in Italy. With Patrick, Amanda, and Raphael now in custody, the investigation into Meredith's murder continued. Patrick was interviewed by detectives and he was like, "What the hell are you talking about? I have an alibi for the night of November 1st. I have an alibi

• 1:06:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  for the early hours of November 2nd." I don't know why she said that, but I had nothing to do with this. He said that on November 1st, he arrived at his bar sometime between 5:30 and 6. Because it was a slow night, he said he texted Amanda at around 8:30 PM, telling her she didn't need to come in. So even Patrick now is confirming there was a text sent, even though the detective said they couldn't find this text on Amanda's phone. Now, the account differed from what Amanda had told detectives when she was being interrogated at the station. She said Patrick told her he wasn't going to open the bar at all, because it was so slow. And Patrick said that wasn't accurate. He said the bar was open that night and he served drinks to roughly 16 customers. He closed shortly after midnight, and he

• 1:07:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  went straight home to his girlfriend and their infant son. Patrick told detectives he hadn't seen Amanda, Raphael, or Meredith at any point that evening. So now... We've got a bar that was open, maybe not busy, but enough people there seeing Patrick, tending bar, serving the drinks, talking to him, at a point where he couldn't possibly have been involved.

• 1:07:57Derrick Levasseur?

  He's not, he's not the guy.

• 1:07:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so detectives did review Patrick's account. They examined the bar receipts and those records confirmed, yes, La Sheik, the bar, had been open. However, the earliest recorded sale was not until 10:29 PM. To investigators, that suggested two things. First, that Patrick may not have opened the bar at 5:30 or 6:00 as he claimed. And second, that he still could have had enough time to kill Meredith before arriving at the bar to establish an alibi.

• 1:08:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Fair. You know, when we talk about a potential timeline of between 9:00 and 11:00 PM for the murder, that's smack dab in the middle.

• 1:08:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, so basically they're like, okay, we believe that you opened the bar, but you said you were there at 5:30 or 6:00, and we don't see any sales being made until 10, almost 10:30, right?

• 1:08:40Derrick Levasseur?

  You would hope there'd be other witnesses there that would be able to put them at the bar, if, even if there were no sales, other employees.

• 1:08:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  So detectives then took a closer look at Raphael's statements, and they found records that contradicted several of them. Raphael said his father had called him around 11:00 PM on November 1st, but phone records showed that Raphael's father had actually called him at 8:42 PM, then sent him a text message at 11:14 PM that read, "Goodnight." So that message was not received until 6:02 AM when Raphael turned his phone back on. Raphael also told detectives that he'd called his sister before contacting authorities on the afternoon of November 2nd. Remember Raphael said his sister was a police officer. She's the one who told him to call the police. Phone records showed something different. They indicated that he contacted police only after the postal police had already arrived at the villa.

• 1:09:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, police also searched Raphael's flat and his car. According to detectives, when they entered the apartment, they immediately noticed a strong smell of bleach. Luminal testing was conducted inside the flat, and investigators concluded the floors had likely been cleaned recently with bleach. When police examined Raphael's car, they also found it to be unusually clean, as if it had been recently, you know, detailed, cleaned up. Detectives searched Raphael's kitchen for a possible murder weapon. Inside a cutlery drawer, they found a knife measuring about 12 inches long with a blade approximately six and a half inches in length. Of all the knives in the kitchen, this was the only one that caught investigators' attention and the only one collected as evidence.

• 1:10:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Initially, it was placed in an evidence bag, but officers became concerned that it could cut someone, so it was removed and placed into an empty cardboard box that had previously held a diary. The knife was then sent off for testing. During the search, police also found Japanese manga comics. Detectives later said the material contained what they described as a "mix of pornography and horror." End quote. One story depicted a woman whose role was to hunt vampires hiding among students at a nearby school. This particular story stood out because on Halloween night, the day before her murder, Meredith had worn a vampire costume. I hate this stuff because now they're reaching. You know, it's like, okay, maybe his apartment was cleaned with bleach. Okay, the phone records don't add up to a story.

• 1:10:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  But now you're like, he liked manga? And it's all about sex and violence, which is exactly what Meredith's murder is about? And it's about, one of them's about a vampire?

• 1:11:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's a little, it's a little too speculative for me.

• 1:11:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Meredith wore a vampire costume? Like, how would Raphael and Amanda even know Meredith wore a vampire costume? They weren't with her on Halloween night, according to the text, because we know Meredith had other plans. So yeah, it's a stretch. Police also came across an image in the comments depicting a murdered young woman whose body position they believed was very similar to Meredith's. So, all of this only contributed to investigators' belief that Raphael was also involved in the crime. Based on everything uncovered so far, McNee and the detectives developed a theory, one that is complex and, at times, difficult to follow, which isn't great if you want a reliable theory. So, according to this theory that McNee and law enforcement came up with, Amanda and

• 1:11:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Raphael spent the afternoon of November 1st smoking marijuana together. At around 8:30 PM, while Amanda was at Raphael's flat, she received Patrick's text message telling her she didn't need to come to work. Amanda then typed the "see you later" reply, though that message was never actually sent. Despite the fact that the text did not go through, detectives believed it confirmed plans the two had already made, meaning Patrick and Amanda. Investigators theorized that Amanda and Patrick had arranged to meet later that night so she could introduce him to Meredith, who they believed Patrick was infatuated with. Now, how was Patrick infatuated with Meredith if he had not met her yet?

• 1:12:26Derrick Levasseur?

  That'd be tough.

• 1:12:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, maybe you saw her, but in infatuation? I don't know. Uh, maybe you saw her with Amanda once, or maybe she came in to see Amanda, but you'd never been introduced in person. But I don't really see how he could develop this huge infatuation with Meredith when he had never even spoken to her. But this is the first night where Patrick is going to meet Meredith. Now, investigators theorized that Amanda and Raphael then left the flat together to meet Patrick. They figured Raphael came along because he was bored and looking for excitement, the kind found in his manga comics. Sometime between 9:00 and 9:30 PM, the couple met Patrick in Piazza Grimani, and they walked with him to the villa. Now, around the same time, both Amanda's and Raphael's phones were turned off.

• 1:13:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Meredith either returned to the villa shortly afterward, or she was already there when they arrived. According to the theory, Meredith went into her bedroom with Patrick. Now, once again, this is the first time Meredith's ever met Patrick. He's interested in her. Is Meredith the kind of girl who's gonna be like, "Hey, you, I know you have a fiance or a girlfriend at home, and I know you got a baby at home, and I've never met you before today, but let's go in my bedroom and, and get to know each other better." I don't really see that happening, personally.

• 1:13:43Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, it's not likely, but we also gotta be honest, it's not like something that's never happened before, either.

• 1:13:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  I suppose, but, I mean, according to everything in Meredith's phone and everything that her friends and family knew about her, she wasn't this boy crazy person. She wasn't dating anybody, she wasn't seeing anybody, there wasn't anybody. She was currently, um, you know, having a sexual, romantic relationship with her. They found nothing like that in her phone. So, all of a sudden...

• 1:14:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, so based on history, it's not likely.

• 1:14:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, based on who she was, yeah. So, the police felt that Meredith and Patrick either had, like, quick hurried sex, or Meredith was sexually assaulted. Investigators believed Raphael then likely entered the room and attempted to participate in the sexual encounter. Meredith was then threatened with a knife, one that Raphael was believed to carry regularly, and then stabbed in the neck. After Meredith was killed, the three staged a fake break-in. Then they cleaned themselves up, leaving traces of blood behind in the bathroom. After that, they fled the scene, taking Meredith's phones with them before discarding them elsewhere. Yeah, so I guess this is also a theory that they're formulating before you have any of

• 1:14:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  the forensics processed. And so I'm not sure why you would go this far and come up with this elaborate, this elaborate scheme of like, oh, Amanda's there with her boyfriend, Meredith's there with Amanda's boss who she's having sex with, and then Raphael, Amanda's boyfriend, wants to have sex with Meredith and Patrick, and Amanda's just like, alright, you go have fun in there, I'm gonna, you know, hang out in here and keep watch. Like, that's weird. You've got no forensics back. You don't have the footprint to even know if it's Raphael's shoe. You haven't tested the fecal matter in the toilet to even know who that came from. Yeah, there's nothing back to support this. So it kind of just felt like it was coming from, well, Raphael likes these comic books about sex and violence, so he must have been

• 1:15:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  down for, you know, a forced threesome, kind of thing. Like, they're making assumptions about their character now, which you're getting out of these investigatory properties that I would say, yeah, of course, the timeline doesn't add up. They retracted their stories. That makes sense, why you suspect them. But now you're like, well, Raphael liked those sexy, violent comics.

• 1:15:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, it's too much. It's too much of a stretch at this point. You get, like you said, you gotta wait for the evidence to come back. Although, if we are just speculating, because, you know, that's what we do, right?

• 1:16:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's what the Italian police did.

• 1:16:07Derrick Levasseur?

  That's, we're not investigating the case, so we can do that. But I do think a likely scenario, when you think about how all these pieces would fit together, maybe not necessarily with Patrick, but a scenario where Raphael and Amanda are back at the apartment with a third party, someone else that we're not aware of, where...

• 1:16:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  You mean Meredith and Amanda's flat, not Raphael's apartment?

• 1:16:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, correct. So another man is there... Raphael and Amanda there. So it's kind of a double date thing situation.

• 1:16:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's a hangout.

• 1:16:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Hangout and then something goes wrong. Something goes wrong. I don't know what, but something goes wrong. That might explain the inconsistencies in Amanda and Raphael's story because they, although they didn't do anything directly, somehow they were, they feel culpable and they're trying to cover their tracks. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm only putting out there that that scenario would make a, would make sense to me if we had a way of going back in the past and seeing what actually happened.

• 1:17:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. And I mean, they're, they're telling fake stories could be a result of guilt that they feel for somehow being responsible, even if they weren't directly responsible.

• 1:17:13Derrick Levasseur?

  And maybe they don't want to give up the real person. You might say, well, why wouldn't they, why wouldn't they just say who it was? Well, if they somehow contributed to the cleanup after the fact, they don't want to implicate that person who can implicate them.

• 1:17:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:25Derrick Levasseur?

  That would be the reason to not bring up that third person who could bring everyone down. If that's what happened.

• 1:17:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I, that, and I'm, I'm sure that's like part of their thing where they're like, hey, we're trying to come up with a theory and formulate a theory where all three of these people, Patrick, Raphael and Amanda.

• 1:17:39Derrick Levasseur?

  They're all lying.

• 1:17:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Have been involved and could have been there.

• 1:17:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 1:17:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  But maybe, you know, since I think we know Patrick had nothing to do with this.

• 1:17:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Poor Patrick, yeah.

• 1:17:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Spoiler alert, Patrick had nothing to do with this. So maybe the police are even at this point thinking, well, if Patrick had nothing to do with this, we still have Amanda and Raphael's phones off going at the same time, phones off at the same time. Their stories aren't matching up. Their stories are now throwing each other under the bus. Raphael can't remember if Amanda was there. He says she wasn't. Amanda says she doesn't know if he was with her at the flat when this whole thing was going down. So let's still try to pin them both and put them both there. And that's what they're trying to do.

• 1:18:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 1:18:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  So by November 8th, a week had passed since Meredith was murdered. Both Meredith's family and Amanda's family had already traveled to Italy. They were searching for answers in a country that they weren't from. They didn't speak the language of, and both families were forced to hire attorneys just to understand how the Italian court system worked and what was happening behind the scenes. That same day, November 8th, a court hearing was held to determine whether the defendants would be granted bail. And during the hearing, the prosecution laid out its theory of the case for the judge. All three defendants were also given the opportunity to speak. Amanda, who had attorneys working with her through the US embassy, she told the judge that she was innocent. She then refused to answer further questions. Now, that's something I want to ask you about.

• 1:18:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  If you're in this position and you had been interrogated by the police and you didn't have a lawyer and you didn't really know what was happening and you made these utterances that you're now trying to detract or retract and you have an opportunity to speak to the judge after you are working with your attorneys through the US embassy. So these are people, hey, I know I can trust them. They're not going to lead me the wrong way. Did the attorneys tell her, don't answer any further questions? Or do you think that she should have maybe used that time when she's in front of the judge to be like, hey, the police were really aggressive, the police did this, they did that. Like, yes, I said something I shouldn't have. I'm retracting that. I have retracted that. But the way I was interviewed was not good and it shouldn't be happening and I'm sorry for what I said. Like, would you use

• 1:19:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  that as a way to sort of like, set the foundation for, I didn't do this. And not only did I not do this, I'm aware I made mistakes and I did stupid things. This is why I did that.

• 1:19:49Derrick Levasseur?

  And I think it's part of it. I think it's part of your why. I made a lot of mistakes. I said some things that weren't true.

• 1:19:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but would you take the opportunity to tell the judge that? Or would you just say, I'm innocent and I have nothing else to say? Which probably is what her lawyers told her to do, but I don't know if it looked great.

• 1:20:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I don't know if I would have taken the opportunity to tell the judge and probably go through my attorneys. But if you have that chance and you feel like it could have an impact, maybe. Maybe. I don't know. I think there's been so many mistakes made up to this point. It's like I've been digging this hole, trying to get out of it, and all I've done is dug myself deeper. And there is a lot of things that were said and done so far that don't look good. And the reality is, they still may have nothing to do with the crime. That's the scary part.

• 1:20:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I mean, her lawyers might have told her, like,

• 1:20:36Derrick Levasseur?

  To say less.

• 1:20:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  You talk a lot, man.

• 1:20:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, just, just, just be quiet.

• 1:20:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  We don't even know why you said this stuff.

• 1:20:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 1:20:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  So let's just kind of make it a rule going forward.

• 1:20:44Derrick Levasseur?

  You don't speak unless we tell you to.

• 1:20:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Don't say more than you need to.

• 1:20:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's probably true. Especially if they sat her down and they said, why did you say this initially? Why did you say this after the fact? She's like, I don't know. I don't remember.

• 1:20:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, they were probably in your position, like, I mean, we get it. It sucked. It was intense. It was hard. It was long. You were tired. You were stressed. But damn, like, you just threw your boss under the bus and now you're saying that's not true at all? Or, well, she's not really saying that's not true. She was saying, I don't know what the truth is. And I just don't know how you proceed in a legal case or in an investigation when your stance is. I don't know what the truth is.

• 1:21:19Derrick Levasseur?

  I just want to reiterate, and I've done it multiple times in this episode. You're talking about November 8th, right? That's where we are in the story and it being the part where we're deciding whether or not they're going to be granted bail.

• 1:21:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Which means that everything you've talked about up to this point, every statement they have made, everything they don't remember, all happened within six, six or seven days. That's what I'm talking about here, guys, where I'm not saying that on November 30th, they were interviewed and they gave inconsistencies. Everything in the story and so much has happened already, was all within a matter of less than seven days. So to think that you have at least two people at this point, who really have no recollection of what happened on that night. That's, that's concerning and that minimum suspicious. Anybody who doesn't see that, whether you know more about the story going forward, don't look at it from that perspective.

• 1:22:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Look at it from the perspective that I'm looking at, at the story, which is right now, not knowing the rest. And if we're all being honest with each other and taking an audit of where we are in the story right now, I think we can mostly agree that there's some, there's some things here that should be concerning to everyone when we're trying to figure out who's responsible for what happened to Meredith.

• 1:22:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, that is weird. That's a week. It's a week between-

• 1:22:37Derrick Levasseur?

  You talked about so much tonight.

• 1:22:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Between the murder and, and them like, yeah, being in front of a judge, are they going to get bail? So a handful of days where you went from knowing exactly where you were and what you did on November 1st, to not even knowing what the truth is.

• 1:22:53Derrick Levasseur?

  That's right. And they were probably interviewed on, I would say, the third or fourth, when that interview happened, where she implicated Patrick. So we're probably talking less than four days in which she went from, this is where I was, this is who I was with, to e- even in her press conference saying, I just don't remember. I just don't, I don't recall.

• 1:23:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. To the point where on November 1st, she can remember what movie they watched.

• 1:23:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. That, that good point.

• 1:23:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  And now, I'm not, Amelie.

• 1:23:22Derrick Levasseur?

  We didn't know the name. Everyone was like, it's super famous. I was like, I have no clue.

• 1:23:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Amale, I think, but yeah, you remembered what movie you watched. It was one of your favorites.

• 1:23:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Very specific.

• 1:23:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  And, and I think that my issue is if you were in this very stressful situation with law enforcement and then you said stuff, maybe after a good night's sleep and then you wake up the next day, you're like, oh, why did I say that? Of course I know what happened. Of course I know what happened. It's, it's exactly what I said. We were there. I got the text. We turned our phones off to not be disturbed. We had dinner. We got high. We watched a movie. We had sex. We went to sleep. And then the next day I went back to the apartment to pack a bag because we're going away for the week. Of course I remember what happened. Maybe I was stressed and they were putting a lot of pressure on me. And in that moment, I said what I had to say to get the hell out of there. But now I'm telling you, I said what I had to say to get the hell out of there. And that's absolutely not true. Not, um, I don't even know what the truth is anymore.

• 1:24:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like you got that messed up in those, in those hours.

• 1:24:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Was it a dream?

• 1:24:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. To where when you're out of the stressful situation and now

• 1:24:22Derrick Levasseur?

  You still don't know what's true.

• 1:24:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  You still don't know what's true. Yeah.

• 1:24:25Derrick Levasseur?

  I can tell you with almost 20 years in investigations now, and I've interviewed hundreds of people, have inter- interrogated hundreds of people, not all at this, with this mount on the, on the line, you know, being a murder. One common trend that I have found when I have a group of individuals that I'm talking to who are at a, a, a specific location together, if they're telling the truth, regardless of how many times I ask them, in most cases, the story continues to be the same and it continues to line up regardless of how many angles or, or approaches I take to it. When I ask those individuals separately what occurred, somehow or another, they're able to keep their story straight. And the reason they're able to keep their story straight

• 1:25:07Derrick Levasseur?

  is they're just going from memory. They're just regurgitating what they've said multiple times because they're remembering what happened and relaying that to me. It's a very simple concept when you're telling the truth. That has been a common occurrence. Now, there have been outliers, but most of the time, regardless of how many people, regardless of how long ago it occurred, if it's in a reasonable amount of time, they usually give the same story.

• 1:25:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's very, I don't like it. I don't like it. And I know people are gonna come at us and they're gonna be like, do you know what she went through? You weren't in her situation. You weren't in her shoes. You don't know what it was like being in that police station, not understanding the language, having to trust an interpreter. Everything's happening so fast. You're getting hit. You're getting screamed at. They're telling you you're lying.

• 1:25:46Derrick Levasseur?

  But when the interpreter reads your written statement to you.

• 1:25:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, after you're asked if you want a lawyer.

• 1:25:51Derrick Levasseur?

  And before Amanda was ever interrogated, to this extreme, Raphael was throwing her under the bus.

• 1:25:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:57Derrick Levasseur?

  So, there's a lot there. There's a lot that you have to acknowledge, and I think we can acknowledge that what they went through was traumatic and probably very, very stressful.

• 1:26:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 1:26:09Derrick Levasseur?

  But at that point, and I would say this to everybody, if you're ever in a similar situation, is just continue to say the truth.

• 1:26:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:26:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Don't change, don't deviate, or don't speak at all.

• 1:26:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 1:26:19Derrick Levasseur?

  That's even a better option. But if you're gonna speak, continue to say the truth, because even though they're asking you multiple times with different inflections, they're just trying to see if you're gonna change your story.

• 1:26:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  I also feel like there's a world that exists where if they're like screaming at you and hitting you, you stand up and you leave. And if they block the door, why? You're not under arrest yet.

• 1:26:37Derrick Levasseur?

  You're being detained at that point.

• 1:26:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  How are you being detained?

• 1:26:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Because they, at that point, now you have a person in there, and this is more of a legal question, but you have now your biggest alibi saying you're lying. So now they have reasonable suspicion to believe a crime has been committed.

• 1:26:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, then I'd be like, am I under arrest? If I'm not under arrest, I'm leaving. I've told you everything I can.

• 1:26:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like, what do we do here? I'm not just gonna make up a story.

• 1:27:03Derrick Levasseur?

  But they can't hold you. They can't hold you.

• 1:27:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  You don't have to speak, and you also don't have to make up a story that pins a murder on someone else.

• 1:27:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Correct. That is, that is fair.

• 1:27:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  I always had a problem with that. All right, we're gonna take our last break. We'll be right back.

• 1:27:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so Amanda chose to just tell the judge, "I'm innocent," and say nothing else. Rafael also told the judge he was innocent, but he agreed to answer questions. So when he was asked about his relationship with Amanda, he said he no longer wanted to date her. Remember, they've been together like two weeks at this point, and one of those weeks, they're basically being suspected of being murderers. Rafael then described what happened on November 1st and November 2nd. Rafael said that on the night of the 1st, he and Amanda walked around together before returning to his flat. He made it clear that Amanda did come back with him and spend the night. He told the judge that he lied when he told detectives she did not return with him because he was under extreme pressure at the time. He was shocked, scared, and emotionally overwhelmed. And I want to address that.

• 1:28:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  In my opinion, there's only two things that can be happening. To have both Amanda and Rafael say things to the police that were lies, and they knew wasn't true, and they knew didn't happen. There's only two options here. One, they're both lying and they weren't involved. Or two, their time with the police was very, very, very severe, to the point where it made them both feel they had no other choice but to say what it was that the police wanted them to say. Or to say something to just make it, you know, stop or go away. So those are the only two options here. Because if Amanda cracked and made up a story, and then Rafael didn't, okay. If Rafael cracked and made up a story and Amanda didn't, okay.

• 1:28:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  But at this point, these are the only two options. They definitely had something to do with the murder, and they were involved in some way. Or, this is just the most intense, like Guantanamo Bay torture interview that has ever happened to make both of these people say like, "I don't, I don't even know what the hell is real anymore. I'm so mentally gaslit and manipulated and confused that I'm just gonna say something so that this stops." There's really no middle ground here.

• 1:29:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, something is not adding up. We're coming to the end of this episode, and I'm still, and maybe that's gonna get me canceled in the comments, but I still don't believe she did it. I really, really don't. The actual autopsy, which is... Consistent and will not change over time is highly suggestive of a male offender. And so I know there's another person in this equation that either we

• 1:29:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  So you're saying she didn't hold the weapon and kill Meredith herself?

• 1:29:44Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no, she definitely, at this point, as far as I'm concerned, did not kill Meredith. I don't know if she knows more than she's saying. I know that at minimum, she's made some mistakes in her, in her approach to, to dealing with law enforcement. And I absolutely am acknowledging that's, that's contributed to their treatment of her. That would, that would affect anybody, including someone like myself who's been in law enforcement. If you're getting slapped around, you, you may say things that you don't necessarily mean to try to appease the people slapping you, right? Would I go out and implicate someone who wasn't involved at all? No, I wouldn't. Um, I don't understand why Raphael, who's from so far, hasn't claimed that he was under duress when he was interviewed. But he still went out and said, Amanda wasn't with me, so.

• 1:30:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, he said he was emotionally overwhelmed, shocked, scared.

• 1:30:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's fine. Why are you, why are you implicating indirectly your girlfriend then? I mean, that's an extreme.

• 1:30:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  He said it pretty early on in the interview too, according to the records.

• 1:30:38Derrick Levasseur?

  I wish, you know, this would all be very simple if we had it on video, which I know interviews or interrogation should be done without video and audio, or at least, at least audio at this point. But I know we're, again, I'll let you finish this one up, but I still am not connecting the dot of how Amanda is involved with this directly at least. I don't know if there's something that you're, you're not familiar with or we don't know in the story, but I, I just, I'm just not there. I'm just not there.

• 1:31:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so according to this, Raphael was questioned for roughly two hours before he withdrew Amanda's alibi.

• 1:31:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Two hours, that's a significant amount of time.

• 1:31:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Uh, yeah, but I mean, we've got a lot of these false confessions happening after like six, seven hours.

• 1:31:26Derrick Levasseur?

  He broke earlier, but.

• 1:31:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  You broke in two hours?

• 1:31:28Derrick Levasseur?

  What's troubling about that is. Let's say that they told the truth the first time. Okay, they were at Raphael's place all night. Okay. If Raphael went in there and said, Amanda had left for whatever period of time. And that wasn't true, like flat out not true. She never left. She was there all night, right? And we knew that for certain. When they brought Amanda in, she would have said, I don't know why he's saying that. But I was with him all night. Like, I never left. For her to pull a 180 and say, you know what? I actually did leave. Not only did I leave, but I went back to the villa. That's, that's, that's a lot to go from, wait, when we walked in here together to this police station,

• 1:32:12Derrick Levasseur?

  we were working off the assumption that I stayed all night at Raphael's place. You're telling me now that he said I didn't. How does she know? That they're not lying to her, that they're not pulling some form of trickery? And saying that Raphael said they weren't together all night when they actually were?

• 1:32:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Derek, I'm gonna be honest, I don't even know if they told her that he had withdrawn her alibi before she said this.

• 1:32:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, interesting. That's a good point.

• 1:32:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think they were just, they were just coming at her with, oh, you said your boss, your boss texted you, but we can't find that text in your phone. So.

• 1:32:43Derrick Levasseur?

  They must have though, they must have, and I'm gonna tell you why.

• 1:32:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  But once again, we only have their version.

• 1:32:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, we only have their version, but they, they asked him to come alone. They had no intention on interviewing her that day. But I think when he finally said she wasn't with me and they realized she was out in the hallway. It was just too much to wait. They wanted to get her right there. So they're like, oh, we did, we got him to flip. He's now implicating her. She's in the hallway. Well, guess what? We're glad she showed up now. Bring her in too. That's my, that's my belief, but even with all that, I can, I can say on, on one side of this, I disagree with their flipping of their recollection of what happened. But still, and maybe I'm just,

• 1:33:30Derrick Levasseur?

  maybe the people who think she's guilty are gonna come for me at this one, but I still just don't see her. Being the person directly involved with Meredith's murder. I do not think at this point she killed Meredith.

• 1:33:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and I mean, honestly, maybe they didn't tell her right away when they first got her in the room, but they would definitely have told her Raphael withdrew the alibi.

• 1:33:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:33:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Before she, before she, you know, started.

• 1:33:51Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt. That's their key. That's their key. Yeah.

• 1:33:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  But why would she have not pointed the finger at him, knowing he had pointed the finger at her? Why wouldn't she have said, well, if I wasn't with him?

• 1:34:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Who do you think I was with?

• 1:34:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Then according to him, I wasn't with him. Well, did he do this then? I think he must have done it then. Why would you just completely randomly like, it was Patrick, like, you know, Patrick hasn't done anything to you. Raphael's throwing your ass under the bus. Why wouldn't you have turned on him the way he had turned on you? Why wouldn't that be the person that you tried to implicate?

• 1:34:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Unless there's another party that we haven't talked about yet.

• 1:34:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:25Derrick Levasseur?

  That they're both trying to protect.

• 1:34:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Interesting. All right. So Raphael also addressed the two pieces of physical evidence police claimed could be tied to him, could potentially be tied to him. He said the shoe print in Meredith's bedroom, which was possibly from Nike Air Force Ones, could not have been his for two reasons. First, he never entered Meredith's room. And second, he was not wearing those shoes on November 1st or November 2nd. When asked about the pocket knife found on him, Raphael said, I always carry a knife. And he explained that he collected knives and chose which one to carry based on what he was wearing. I don't think that telling them that you collect knives is a hobby at this point when this woman's been stabbed to death is probably the best thing to say, but that is what he said.

• 1:35:10Derrick Levasseur?

  That's the least concerning thing that they've said to law enforcement so far.

• 1:35:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but the media will use it against him. Now that now they got pictures of him, you know, talking about knives on, on social media and posting pictures of knives and they, they're going to use that at least to, you know, put him on trial for the public. So after Raphael was finished, Patrick was brought before the judge and he's like, "I don't even know what the hell I'm doing here." He provided his alibi again. He said he'd been working at the bar, Le Cheek, throughout the evening of November 1st. He said he did not see Amanda at all that night. Patrick also denied ever being attracted to Meredith, saying he had never flirted with her or expressed interest in her to anyone in any way. He said, quote, "I didn't go to Amanda's house. I didn't kill Meredith. I'm innocent and God knows it," end quote. When Patrick was asked

• 1:35:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  why the first receipt from his cash register was time stamped 10:29 PM, five hours after he opened the bar, he explained that when the bar was slow, he sometimes allowed customers to pay only when they were ready to leave, which makes total sense, by the way.

• 1:36:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, so people were in there much earlier, but not until they closed out their tab.

• 1:36:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's like they have a tab running. Yeah, they may have been there at 5:30, had four or five drinks, and then paid when they left at 10:30. So after hearing from all three defendants and reviewing the evidence presented, the judge sided with the prosecution, believing their version of events. And so Amanda, Raphael, and Patrick were all ordered to remain in jail for up to a year while the investigation continued. All three of them were sent back to prison, still in shock, but holding on to the hope that investigators would eventually recognize their innocence. Only one of them would get that wish. For the other two, things were only going to get much, much worse. But all of that's going to have to wait for the next part. Yeah, I can't even imagine being Patrick at this

• 1:37:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  point, where you're like, "I had nothing to do with this whatsoever. I don't even know these people, really. I know I was home. I know I was at the bar. People saw me there. I have alibis." And I'm going to prison for up to a year while the investigation continues? Like, how are you feeling at this point?

• 1:37:18Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I mean, my takeaway after three parts is just my perspective from what you're relating to me, it appears that Italian police had it out for Amanda, especially being a foreigner. They really felt like she was the person responsible from the beginning, and they were just looking for confirmation. And they did some, they provide, they used some techniques that are unethical, immoral, unprofessional, whatever word you want to use, and... At some point, she may have worked off of her original statement out of fear. Maybe she said some things that she shouldn't have, and also maybe she didn't say the things that law enforcement said she did because we have no proof of it, although

• 1:37:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, she did say like

• 1:37:59Derrick Levasseur?

  We do have a written statement.

• 1:37:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, she also said, I did say that stuff, but I don't know why I did.

• 1:38:03Derrick Levasseur?

  But I was under duress, yeah. So at minimum, we're looking at a young woman who I do think was in the right mind state and intelligent enough to understand what was happening here and should have gave consistent statements. At minimum, we're looking at her making some really poor judgment calls when dealing with law enforcement, whether that was to change her story or to speak to them at all. Worst case scenario, as far as Amanda's concerned, at this point, in my opinion, is she knows who's responsible and she's just not saying it for whatever reason, but I am not hearing anything so far that would indicate to me that she is solely involved with this murder, where she went back to the villa at some point, her and Meredith had a falling out, she killed her and then she left.

• 1:38:48Derrick Levasseur?

  The autopsy does not support that. The evidence at the crime scene does not indicate it's Amanda Knox and I think she would let someone else find her, meaning Meredith, if that were the case, to try to give her some more separation. So there are some things to me that are still not connecting, and I don't know what it is, but the fact that you mentioned tonight that someone else was arrested for this crime and you talked about him a little bit, that might fill those gaps for me, where it might make more sense as to why Amanda said what she said. I don't know. I don't know the relationship. I'm interested in learning about it, though, because

• 1:39:28Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm not completely understanding why Amanda made some of the decisions she did. You can attribute some of those to duress and trauma and stress. But as far as like we've both established, coming out during a press conference afterward and saying, I still don't know what I did, what happened. I have a hard time, I have a hard time believing that.

• 1:39:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I think that the police did definitely always want to pin it on Amanda, but because of the nature of the crime, they were like, well, she had to have worked with a man. So now we have two men here, Raphael and Patrick, it's gotta be one of them. We don't really care which one it is at this point. We're just putting them all where we know where they are and we can keep an eye on them and then we'll figure that out as we go. But they definitely always wanted her to be responsible. I think she rubbed them the wrong way. I think they didn't like her. I think they thought, you know, she's acting weird. We don't like this. You're not from here. And yeah, they, they kind of went hard and kind of Raphael and Patrick maybe got sort of swept up in the crosshairs based on the, once again, the nature of the crime and Meredith having sex or being sexually assaulted shortly before her murder.

• 1:40:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, there's gotta be a guy involved. We've got two here. We'll figure out which one it is and how they were involved and who was involved as we go along, but it's definitely Amanda.

• 1:40:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, not only did they go hard, but they went fast.

• 1:40:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, they did, they did go fast.

• 1:40:48Derrick Levasseur?

  I had talked about November 8th being a day and all of this transpiring within those six or seven days. That is true. What is also true is that by arresting them as fast as they did, there's no physical possibility that they could have vetted all other theories by that point.

• 1:41:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  They didn't even have the forensics back.

• 1:41:07Derrick Levasseur?

  They didn't have forensics back. There's no way they're able to devote enough time to looking into other scenarios, looking at other potential suspects, looking at any camera footage, talking to witnesses, cross referencing sources. You already have these people in jail. So that clearly wasn't done and part of the job of those detectives is not only to build a case, but to also explore any other potential theories, regardless of how unlikely they may be, to ensure that that outlier isn't actually what happened. And they, that's part of your job, especially if it's going to go to trial, because if you don't do it, the defense attorneys will. And there's no way they could have done it in that period of time. So I say November 8th.

• 1:41:48Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm saying it both ways, not only because Amanda and Raphael changed their stories within such a short period of time, but law enforcement came to a conclusion within that same time period as well. And that's, and that's, and that's very concerning. We know they jumped the gun. They arrested a guy with very little information and, and had to let him out almost as just fast. So it's, uh, it's not good. This case is not good. It's, it's, it's a mess actually. And Amanda and Raphael didn't help themselves. I think most of us can admit that.

• 1:42:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  I can admit, I'm still not quite sure why they did that. But if you guys have like thoughts or, or you can very clearly see why they would have done this and, and you have your own like theory, please put it in the comments. We look forward to reading it, but until next time.

• 1:42:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Can I say one more thing?

• 1:42:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Leave a review.

• 1:42:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Can I, can I say one more thing?

• 1:42:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:37Derrick Levasseur?

  If you're going to push back on anything we've said tonight, I ask one thing. When you're doing it, don't take it from the perspective of you doing your research and knowing the end, like going, like being further in this story where you are privy to information that I'm not privy to yet, or information that Stephanie may know, but hasn't disclosed to us yet. Cause she's going in chronological order. So if you're going to correct or dispute something that I said, or Stephanie said, look at it from the perspective of where we are in the timeline. That's all I ask. And if there's something there, by all means, weigh in, let us know. But yes, Stephanie said it. We appreciate your, you being here. If you haven't already, like the video, comment, subscribe. If you haven't, we're not going

• 1:43:19Derrick Levasseur?

  anywhere. We do this every week. We'd appreciate your support to get more eyes and ears on this channel. And we have some good things coming in, in 2026 that, uh, when we talk about community and discussing these cases, not only from a, from a historical perspective, but also from a perspective of information where we can learn from it, right? Like this isn't something where Meredith did anything wrong, but the takeaway in this series is going to be how you interact with law enforcement, what you say and what you don't say. So you see what I'm saying here? It's almost like an encyclopedia for true crime where you can take these stories, these cases and put yourself in, in certain people's shoes so that you can do things differently. If you're unfortunately ever faced with a similar situation. That's what I take from it. Honestly, is learning, being educated, being informed,

• 1:44:04Derrick Levasseur?

  and being more prepared for whatever you face, especially if you're involved with something similar to this, which I hope none of you ever are.

• 1:44:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I mean, we can all, we can all say like, oh, what we would do and what we wouldn't do in these situations. You can't say that, and very true. I can say without a doubt, I would not make up some story about a person I knew wasn't guilty of murder and then say they were. And I don't know in what circumstance I would have ever gotten to a point where somebody made my brain so crazy that I thought that it actually happened to the point where I said it, said it again, denied a lawyer, said it again, and then signed a written statement.

• 1:44:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:44:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's the, that's the thing. So I don't, I can't imagine that I would ever, ever do that. I might have, you know, been like, maybe I did do it. You know, you could convince me into thinking maybe I did it.

• 1:44:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did it. Or Raphael did it.

• 1:44:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  But, but to just bring Patrick in randomly? I don't know. I don't know. I don't think I would ever do that to someone.

• 1:45:02Derrick Levasseur?

  It does make you wonder, at this point in the story, was there someone else that she's aware of that she just doesn't want to say? And why she wouldn't want to say that? We don't know. We'll have to wait for part four. What are you thinking? Five part, six part? What are you thinking on this one?

• 1:45:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Don't ask me that.

• 1:45:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Don't ask. Too much pressure. Too much pressure. She's gonna lie. She's under duress.

• 1:45:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm overwhelmed.

• 1:45:22Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't remember.

• 1:45:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was Patrick.

• 1:45:26Derrick Levasseur?

  We, guys, we appreciate you being here.

• 1:45:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Patrick's writing the scripts.

• 1:45:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Patrick is writing the script. He did it. As always, guys, we appreciate you being here. Everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you next week.

• 1:45:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye.