From Fat Kid To Pro Cyclist: Phil Gaimon On Clean Sport, Racing On $10 A Day & The Worst Retirement Ever

Let's talk about doping. Throw cycling into the conversation and emotions are sure to run hot. It's an emotional subject for reasons both obvious and obscure. A flashpoint that divides loyalties, pitting our innate sense of fairness against our natural impulse to forgive. I have opinions on the matter. But my perspective is far from set in cement. Because I am aware that it's formed from the sidelines, as an observer of a very insular subculture beyond my direct experience, and to which I am not privy. Unless you were actually there — in the unfortunate and precarious position so many athletes across so many sports abruptly find themselves — my opinion is that we should not be so quick to judge. Everybody thinks they would make the right choice. I certainly do. But that's just projection. The truth is that you don't actually know what you would do. Connecting with this impulse helps me empathize with those who went astray. Is that a good thing? I honestly don't know. Phil Gaimon did make the right choice. A somewhat polarizing figure in the cycling community, today he tells the tale. Overcoming childhood obesity to achieve his dream of riding professionally, over the course of his professional cycling career Phil competed on several established domestic teams like Jelly Belly, Bissel and Optum-Kelly Benefit as well as high profile, international UCI teams like Garmin Sharp in 2014 and Cannondale–Drapac in 2016 before hanging up his bib shorts at the end of last year. Well, not exactly, but I'll get to that part in a minute. Along the way he has raced and trained with the best. Now he writes about his experiences, coming clean on what transpired behind cycling's shrouded curtain with wit and a healthy dose of comedic self-deprecation. He is the author of Pro Cycling On $10 A Day* and Ask a Pro*. His newest tome, Draft Animals: Living The Pro Cycling Dream (Once In A While) — an entertaining memoir about achieving his childhood dream of riding pro on the World Tour and what happened to him when he achieved it — hits bookstores October 10, 2017. When he's not writing books, Phil is an active blogger and contributor to various cycling publications like Velo News. He also hosts The Peloton Brief Podcast and is the founder of Phil’s Cookie Fondo – a series of cycling adventures between 32 and 113 miles taking place October 15 that showcases Malibu’s great climbs (and apparently involves a lot of cookies). Back to the bib shorts. He didn't exactly hang them up. In fact, Phil has spent the better part of the last year pursuing what he calls The Worst Retirement Ever — an endeavor in which he is attempting to clock the fastest-ever... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  Everyone's a cyclist before they're an athlete. Everyone just starts to ride bikes for fun. So for me, I just liked going out and exploring. Riding a bike, you see the world at this pace that when you're driving, you miss it. You don't smell it. You don't see what's going on. When you're running, you can see it, but you don't cover a lot of ground. But when you're riding, you can really soak up a lot in a day. You can really feel what's going on, and you can stop for, you know, pick up an apple or something. And so that was what I got out of it. And I found like, if you're training and you're staring at your power meter and you're doing your workout and your coach and all this stuff, like, at some point, it can start to feel like work if you're not careful. And so, once in a while, like, think about what got you into it and carve that out for yourself. Just today, go out and do what you feel like. Just go for a ride.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  It reinvigorates everything, and at some point, like, that definitely extended my training and it made life a lot easier. And at some point, that's all I'm gonna do.

• 1:58Rich Roll?

  That's Phil Gaiman, this week, on the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:12Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody. How you guys doing? What's happening? How are you? My name is Rich Roll. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. The show where each week I go deep, I get intimate, I go down the rabbit hole with all manner of movers and shakers and inspiring people and wise personalities across a wide spectrum of everything from wellness to fitness, entrepreneurship, spirituality, addiction recovery, sports, literature, medicine, entertainment. And I bring you these people, I engage these people, I share these stories and this wisdom all as a means to help you and me, of course, as well, just become a little bit better,

• 2:53Rich Roll?

  a little more self-actualized. The idea, of course, is to help all of us unlock and unleash our best, most authentic self. I know that sounds a little bit pithy and trite, but it's kind of a cool aspiration. So come on, you guys. Just go with it. Today I sit down with former American professional road racing cyclist Phil Gaiman. So who is Phil? Phil is a former American professional cyclist. Didn't I just say that? Phil has competed on several teams across the course of his career, domestic teams like Jelly Belly, Bissell, Optum, Kelly, Benefit, as well as international UCI teams, the big teams,

• 3:34Rich Roll?

  like Garmin Sharp, which he raced with in 2014, and more recently Cannondale Drapac in 2016 before he retired at the end of this year. Phil is also an author. He's written a couple of books, Pro Cycling on $10 a Day, very entertaining read, Ask a Pro, and he's got a brand new book. It's called Draft Animals: Living the Pro Cycling Dream. Once in a while, parenthetical, once in a while. That book comes out October 10th and it's available for preorder now. Check it out. We recorded this podcast quite some time ago, several months ago, and I apologize for the delay to all you Phil fans out there in getting this out to you guys in a more timely fashion.

• 4:17Rich Roll?

  I just had a backlog and all kinds of other stuff, as you may or may not know, that has been occupying my time. But in the meantime, Phil sent me an advanced copy of this new book. And although I've only begun to check it out and get into it, it's a really fun and entertaining look behind the scenes on what it's really like to ride pro on the world tour at cycling's highest level. It's about Phil's childhood dream and what happened to him when he actually achieved it, all are which subjects that we explore at length today. Phil is also an active blogger who occasionally writes for Velo News and other cycling publications. He hosts his own podcast, the Peloton Brief Podcast, and he is the founder of Phil's Cookie

• 5:01Rich Roll?

  Fondo, which is a 100 mile, I think it's 100 miles, cycling adventure that shows off Malibu's great climbs, climbs I know well, and apparently involves gourmet cookies. It takes place on October 15th and you can check it out and sign up at philsfondo, F-O-N-D-O, dot com. In any event, Phil has spent the better part of the last year pursuing this campaign that he calls "The Worst Retirement Ever," in which he is systematically going after and collecting Strava KOMs, which for people that aren't on Strava or don't really know what it is, it's basically attempting to clock the fastest ever recorded times on every prestigious

• 5:45Rich Roll?

  climbing hill, incline, that he can find, both domestic and abroad, all the famous climbs. And this was inspired due to him becoming upset that a bunch of previously banned riders held so many of these KOMs, King of the Mountain honors, and he was inspired to reclaim them for the sake of clean sport. And that's a challenge that he has been documenting as a cool series of fun videos on YouTube. I'll put a link up to the show notes, so you can check that out as well.

• 6:25Rich Roll?

  All right, let's talk about Phil. Let's talk about the conversation that we had. It was really cool. It was really fun. We covered a ton of ground. We talk about his childhood, growing up obese, if you can believe that. How do you go from obese to professional cyclist? It's a crazy story. It's about how he first started riding bikes to lose weight and the career that followed. And then we go behind the scenes on the insular, mysterious world of pro cycling. All the misconceptions of what being a pro rider actually means, what it's like, the true lack of glamour that is involved. And that's all covered in his book, Pro Cycling on $10 a Day book. We also cover cycling's sordid history with doping,

• 7:07Rich Roll?

  Phil's refusals to use throughout his career despite being surrounded by this culture, and what it means to him to be clean and to stay clean within that culture. We talk about his Strava mission to scrub all of these Strava records, to clean them up and erase these banned riders from the record boards. But at its core, this is really a conversation that demystifies one of the world's most unique professional sports through the eyes of somebody who actually lived through it. And I will say that, you know, talking about doping and cycling is really tricky. It's very difficult. It's a very emotional subject for a lot of people for a lot of reasons, both obvious and obscure.

• 7:51Rich Roll?

  And of course, I have opinions on it. But I'm also very connected with the fact that my opinions, these opinions are formed from the sidelines. You know, I'm not a professional cyclist. I never was. And personally, I think that unless you were actually there, unless you were in the position that these athletes found themselves, continue to find themselves, that we need to perhaps not be so quick to judge. Because we all like to think that we would make the right choice. But, you know, that's, that's theory. That is projection. So it was really great to explore this hot button with somebody who was actually there, who actually walked through it, rode his bike through it, lived through it.

• 8:35Rich Roll?

  Plus, he's super funny. It was a really entertaining talk, like I said. So let's not waste any time. Let's talk to Phil.

• 8:46Rich Roll?

  Let's do it.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  All right.

• 8:47Rich Roll?

  Good to see you, Phil.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Thanks, Rich.

• 8:49Rich Roll?

  Thanks for coming out. I'm super stoked to talk to you. You're a super interesting guy and excited to delve into the world of professional cycling and probe your experience and everything that you've done and that you're doing now. I kind of see you like you're a pretty interesting dude for a lot of reasons, but I think some of them have to do... Well, first of all, like your experience in pro cycling is interesting to me because you share it so much. You're a writer, you know, and you have a very kind of comedic flair with your writing and how you kind of share your experience and what it was like to be part of that world.

• 9:33Rich Roll?

  And I'm fascinated by, you know, the subculture of professional cycling. And I think, you know, we hear a lot from the top pros, you know, the superstars, you know, the names that you always hear about. But you're kind of a guy who is a journeyman, kind of yeoman dude, right? Like you were on a lot of different teams, you know, racing with a lot of different guys. And I think for the average human being, if you tell them, "I'm a professional cyclist," they're just immediately think like you're racing the Tour de France every year, right?

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I was very much on the fringe of all that.

• 10:08Rich Roll?

  Right, so maybe, I think it would be worth kind of just hearing a little bit about your career and your perspective on the sport.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Sure. I kind of got a late start. I guess that would be like my first setback or my first hurdle. So I started racing in college, kind of like mostly started riding to lose weight, racing in college just as a part of a club thing.

• 10:32Rich Roll?

  Had you been an athlete before that, like in high school and stuff?

• 10:35Speaker 01

  I was the fat goalie in youth soccer, so no.

• 10:37Rich Roll?

  Really? You were not fat?

• 10:39Speaker 01

  I was exactly obese at like age 12, like 30% body fat, which like isn't that huge, but it was going to go one direction or the other. And I was kind of like, I did something about it before it got too late.

• 10:53Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  So I saw it.

• 10:54Rich Roll?

  You grew up in like Georgia, right?

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, Atlanta.

• 10:58Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And so, what, just eating Cheetos as a kid or like?

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Coca-Cola.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  The city of Atlanta is owned by Coca Cola. So there's like vending machine in high school. You like pick up a bottle before between classes and then suddenly you've got the the fetus. Uh, was was a lot of people's experience, but.

• 11:16Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, so.

• 11:19Rich Roll?

  You're like, I don't want to be a fat kid.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I looked out at the mirror at at some point. I looked down. I was like, there's this big roll of fat. And I was like, I don't want to like go through life like that.

• 11:30Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Um, so like the as as like a child would before I had any concept of like health or fitness. I kind of just like ate one meal a day and rode my bike a lot. And at sixteen, I guess I could survive that.

• 11:42Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, just for perspective, right now, you're like, how tall are you?

• 11:46Speaker 01

  I'm six, one, like a hundred fifty pounds. No, now I'm like gross skinny. Now like it's the other way. I'm still gross with my shirt off.

• 11:53Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  But it's not because I'm fat.

• 11:55Rich Roll?

  The teenage boy professional cycling look.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Um, so so that was that was kind of how I got started was just to lose weight. And then I go to college. I went to University of Florida.

• 12:05Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  And um, there was, I didn't know anybody, you know, new state, new school. And and I joined the cycling club just to make friends. I was like, I like riding bikes. I just lost a bunch of weight and uh, ride with them all winter. And then their their whole thing is racing collegiate racing scene. Um, and I I jump into that and I won my first races and I was like, oh, this is a thing.

• 12:25Rich Roll?

  How long before you won your first race?

• 12:27Speaker 01

  It was my first race.

• 12:28Rich Roll?

  You you won your very first race.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there's like lower categories and stuff. And so here's like a bunch of people who the the lower categories are kind of meant for people who who work or or whatever, who are just starting out. And here's a guy who's like been training full time for six months. I'm in college. So it's plenty of time and I just, I I loved it so much. I just did all the training and.

• 12:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Basically, I was training like a pro because I had time and I just kind of shot through the ranks and. And it was it it captivated me and and it kidnapped me, I guess is a better term for for the next decade.

• 12:59Rich Roll?

  Was there a moment where you realized like, hey, man, like I could be like, I might be good enough to to go all the way with this?

• 13:05Speaker 01

  I was always kind of a one step at a time person, kind of like when the first category is category five, I was like, you know, I think I could be a cat four. And then I do that and then, and then each time, the first time I kind of thought I could be a pro would be like my, my third year racing. I sort of just fallen, now I'm like doing races against pros, I'm an amateur. And there was this one race called Univeast in Pennsylvania that all the European like development teams come over for. And, and my team was sort of lucky to be invited and, and somehow like I just held on to the front guys and finished debatably fourth or seventh, depending on how bad they screwed up the results was one of those.

• 13:43Rich Roll?

  That's kind of like a breaking away moment, right? Like, oh, the Europeans are here, right?

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Sort of, sort of. And there was eventually, in a different way, a pump in my spokes of at the end, like the results were all messed up. So I still don't know how I finished. I know I was either fourth or seventh and there's, there's a debate and I don't care. But either way, it was kind of like, oh, you can hang with these guys thing. And I was 21.

• 14:04Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and riding in Gainesville, I mean, that's pretty flat, right? So.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Dead flat.

• 14:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So not a lot of climbing experience or like a lot of crits and stuff like that?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I didn't, I didn't know I was a climber until like my second year racing. I didn't know there was a thing like a big ring. I didn't know there's a little ring to climb in. I thought I was like a time trialist and I was kind of good. And then we, we got up to, like I'd travel a little bit and I was like, oh, that's my thing. Okay. Mountains.

• 14:31Rich Roll?

  Right. Interesting. So how does it work? Like when you show promise or prowess as a young person in the sport? Like, does the sort of national organization reach out to you and develop you? Or like, what is the process of sort of cultivating or grooming somebody who's in your position to then take it to the next level?

• 14:50Speaker 01

  In, in my position, I think it was, it was all kind of like self cultivated. The, there is, now it's a lot better. Then there were kind of development teams, but I was a little bit on the older side, a little bit on the later side. So there's like, there was a national program, but they're kind of like, oh, you're, you're 20 and everybody here has been national champions since they were 12. So, so I kind of had no luck there. So I got on some good kind of amateur development teams, but now there's more of a program. There's a few kind of professional teams that, that. Look for the young talent and find them.

• 15:23Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Um, the time that I started, I didn't really know it was kind of the, the, the post, uh, EPO bubble.

• 15:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Where there's all these scandals and just the money was kind of running away from the sport. So there's a lot of teams in general.

• 15:36Rich Roll?

  Right. So you're kind of stepping into this world, right? As it's kind of beginning to crumble around.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. The way, the way I explained it was like I'm climbing up a ladder and it's like being chopped from underneath me and it's falling down.

• 15:46Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  That was, that was how it, that's how it was looking back. At the time you're just like, you know, shoving coal in the engine and going for it.

• 15:53Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And so what was the first pro team that you rode for?

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Um, so I, I got on a pro team my second year and then that one kind of went away.

• 16:02Rich Roll?

  Second year in college?

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Second year racing, yes. And also second year college, I was a sophomore.

• 16:06Rich Roll?

  You're in college and you're racing professionally?

• 16:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but professional cycling is kind of like, it's, it's a, it's, it wasn't, it's not full time and you're not really getting paid. Uh huh. For the most part at that level, like kind of the minor leagues sort of level, the American stuff.

• 16:19Rich Roll?

  So explain like the tiers of teams that exist.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 16:23Rich Roll?

  There's the, you know, you hear about all that, you, you see the teams racing at the Tour de France and you just sort of think, well, those are the teams.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  And, and that's pretty much true. The, uh, the.

• 16:32Rich Roll?

  But there's a whole other world of cycling, you know?

• 16:34Speaker 01

  It's like the NBA where like there's the NBA and then, but you can also play professionally in Europe.

• 16:39Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  So I would say like, and some guy, sometimes the best guys in Europe come over to the US, but it's not really like a, like a minor leagues. Parallel exactly, but it sort of happens that way. So there's this whole world of racing in the US on these, it's called continental teams. It's kind of the lower tier. Um, and, and once in a while, the best guy from there gets to go to the big leagues in Europe, which I eventually ended up there, but I could sort of floundered in the, the American stuff. Um, for, for many years of my career and then at, at 27 was I signed a contract to, technically that was when I was like a real pro.

• 17:11Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  For the first time. So I was on a pro team, but it doesn't. It's not.

• 17:15Rich Roll?

  Right. And what team was that?

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Uh, that was Garmin Sharp.

• 17:17Rich Roll?

  Right. So that was what year?

• 17:19Speaker 01

  That was 2014.

• 17:20Rich Roll?

  2014. Yeah. I mean, that's a big, that's one of the big teams.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's it.

• 17:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like that's a big league, right?

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:27Rich Roll?

  But there's all these other, you were on, like, there's all these other teams like Jelly Belly

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 17:32Rich Roll?

  and Kelly Benefits and Bissel and, you know, like, it's, it's a bizarre world because the sponsors are like, okay, they make vacuums and these people make, you know, basically jelly beans.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:45Rich Roll?

  It's like this bizarre mishmash of weird companies that, you know, take a flyer and decide they're gonna back these cycling teams. It's kind of a weird business model.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's like a big part of the problem, I think, because there's not-

• 17:58Rich Roll?

  It's not working out, right?

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, in some cases it does. And, and I think for the most part, like in Europe, it's the, the, the industry sponsors are kind of floating it now. So when it was, when it was big, when, you know, when Lance was hosting SNL, corporate sponsors wanted in. And, and now it's kind of like, Canada has a team, Trek has a team. And you sort of have to go that route. And, and the money's there. It's just not, it's not quite what it was. It's not, uh, it's not huge. In, in the US, it's a lot more passion, I think. So there's, Mark Bissell is a cycling fan, so he was sort of looking for a way to sponsor cycling.

• 18:34Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  And, and if it's, and eventually, that when I was on that team, they were kind of like, my, my understanding was his board of directors was like, look, can we stop sinking all this money into cycling every year? Because it's not, nobody, we're not selling vacuums here.

• 18:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, who's gonna go out and buy their Bissel vacuum because they like this cyclist on this team? Plus, it's a huge risk because if a couple guys get busted for EPO, then it just works across purposes with the whole retention, right? So you're asking them to, you know, sort of trust you on faith that that's not gonna happen? And I think when that all started to kind of crater, uh, with all the scandals, that all those sponsors kind of went running for the hinterlands.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  That's, I think that's exactly true. That's, that's like, that was sort of when I entered professional cycling was when all of them were seeing, like, there was a, there was a team called Festina, and I forget which Tour de France this was, but they were caught with all of the drugs.

• 19:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  And that's called the Festina scandal, and poor Festina is just trying to sell watches.

• 19:29Rich Roll?

  Stuck in the middle of that for like, yeah, forever.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  We didn't, we didn't give them the EPO. We're just trying to sell watches.

• 19:36Rich Roll?

  And forever, it's the Festina scandal.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  That's the name of it.

• 19:38Rich Roll?

  So they're associated with this black mark.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it officially cost them on their reputation.

• 19:43Rich Roll?

  I didn't even know that Festina made watches.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  They only make scandals.

• 19:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 19:48Rich Roll?

  So when you're on Garmin Sharp, though, are you thinking like, I'm moving up? Like, I'm headed to the Tour de France? Or did you have like a sense of your ultimate potential? Or did you kind of think like, I'm hanging on, you know, I'm hanging on for dear life here?

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Um, I think, I think it was a little bit of both. I think like every, like every athlete, you can fool yourself. You know, you can think like, oh, it's only going up from here and whatever. And I think at that point, like, I mean, I had risen to that. I'd had like a very steady growth and every year I was getting better. Um, and I hadn't really been exposed to the top of the top.

• 20:23Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Um, and then I, and I went there and I got lucky and I won my first race on Garmin Sharp, which was, which was amazing. I was like, oh, here we go. It's just gonna be, just gonna go all the way up there. I'll do the tour. Um, and then at some point, like, reality punches you in the face and you sort of start training with the best guys in the world and you do some races and it's like, oh. And then, and then from there, you kind of have to backtrack and say, all right, is it still worth it if I can't be the best? And what is my place in the sport? Um, and what's my role?

• 20:52Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and during that period of time, I mean, I would assume like when you're riding for Garmin, you're getting paid all right, right?

• 21:00Speaker 01

  Uh, I was getting, exactly all right. Yeah. So there's like the, the league minimum basically is $50,000. Uh, so that was my salary. That's, that's what you get if you're, you're 27 and barely good enough to be in there.

• 21:11Rich Roll?

  Right. But on these, these continental teams, like, you know, it disabused me of the romantic notion of what it's like to be a professional cyclist. I mean, you wrote a whole book on this, like, professional, be a pro cyclist on $10 a day.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. My, so my first pro contract.

• 21:26Rich Roll?

  Poverty level, like, training all day and eating beans and rice or whatever.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's, that's kind of that world. It's like, you have to find a way to support yourself. And that was sort of the first, so my salary, um, so the first year I got on a pro team in college, it was, uh, I got $8,000. And that was great because I was still in school and didn't really deserve anything. And then that team went away and I was amateur for two years. So no pay. They, they give you two bikes and, and some clothes and, and good luck with yourself. And I'm driving across the country back and forth to get to any big race I can. And then I

• 22:01Rich Roll?

  On your own dime.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:03Rich Roll?

  Do they reimburse you for your travel to races and stuff?

• 22:05Speaker 01

  No, man, I made some prize money. They're like a hundred dollars for winning the next lap and I'm getting it.

• 22:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a weird thing. Like I, I see this with pro triathlon too. Like there's so many Ironmans now and it, it takes so much to train, to, to perform at the highest level in Ironman. There's only so many Ironmans you can do a year. And unless you're, you're winning big races, like you're barely scratching by. And all of these races are in exotic venues that you have to get on a plane and travel to. Like, I don't know how the numbers work. Like, I don't know how they do it.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  I, I mean, that's a big piece of the puzzle. I can't speak to triathletes, but, but for me, it was kind of like Jelly Belly, my salary was $2,000. I did well that year and I got on a better team and my salary was

• 22:50Rich Roll?

  Unlimited jelly beans.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Oh, so many jelly beans. I'm not even gonna, yeah. It was like 90 pounds every couple of months.

• 22:56Rich Roll?

  We'll give you as many, as many jelly beans as you want. Like, you should be happy.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  That's, that's been like a sustained sponsor of the sport is I think like they give out these little sample packs. You'd get 90 pounds every couple of months of just these like tiny little 100 calorie things. And then you have to give them away. And it's fun to give them away. And then, uh, and everybody's happy. That, that sponsor has been the longest running in the US.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  I, I guess easier to sell jelly beans than, than, uh,

• 23:21Rich Roll?

  Vacuum cleaners.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  But Bissell's still involved, just not like at the title level.

• 23:24Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  But, but yeah, for me, it was kind of like, so it was $2,000 on Jelly Belly. And next year I got 15. Next year I got 20. Then my salary was, right, my contract was for 20, but the team folded halfway through. So I got like 13. And, and then no paycheck. So I was like five months.

• 23:41Rich Roll?

  It's so glamorous.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. You're selling your bikes at the end of the year. You're, I mean, I ended up like working side jobs. I had like a little company on the side. I was selling like cycling clothing online.

• 23:51Rich Roll?

  Does everybody have to have like a side hustle?

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Basically, yeah, a lot of guys coach. That's, that's a big thing. Um, but I mean, I had teammates who'd work construction in the off-season. It's just like anything. It's, it's a whole range. A lot of students, a lot of people like pecking away at PhDs or something.

• 24:05Rich Roll?

  It's almost like that, that was how, like in Europe, that's the birth of the sport, right? It was very much like a blue collar

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:13Rich Roll?

  occupation. Like, these guys were like chimney sweeps and stuff.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 24:17Rich Roll?

  That would raise the Tour de France.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  And the original Tour de France, like, there's no drafting, there's no teams. And like, if you, if your bike breaks, like, you're welding that thing back together. That's like part of the rules.

• 24:27Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  So, yeah, hopefully, hopefully, our, our sport kind of evolves more to that, but I'll, I'll be long gone by then.

• 24:33Rich Roll?

  And are people, the other weird thing is that, is that you would imagine, like, the average person probably thinks that you're out riding with teammates all the time, and it's like, very much a team sport on a daily basis. But you live wherever you want. You do all, basically, you're, the training's on you, right? Like, you're, you're, you're responsible for your own training, and most of that is like by yourself, or just whatever, with whatever buddies you happen to, you know, live around you, right?

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:58Rich Roll?

  And you only get together as a team for races or training camps, like, a couple times a year.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's pretty much true. In, in Europe, like, a lot of the pros kind of pocket in, like, one of four cities. So, Luca, Italy, Nis, Monica, and Girona. So, if, if you're on Garmin Sharp, like, that almost comes, that contract almost comes in an apartment in Girona, and everybody ends up over there. So, Cannondale now. Uh, so you end up training with-

• 25:22Rich Roll?

  What is it about Girona that everyone goes there?

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Well, originally, it was because they, they passed, so like, all the US Postal guys, the, the Lance crew, were, were in, were living in France, and then France passed laws that it was now criminal to, to dope. So, they were all like, uh-oh. So, they went to Spain. And like, Girona, it's a beautiful city. The roads are, it's this medieval town, and there's like really nice roads. Um, but originally, like, that was, that was the source of, that was when they migrated there, and kind of established, like, Girona became the, the base for English-speaking pro cyclists, and it snowballed from there. Um, and the, the EPO factory shut down, but- The, you know, the castles in the Mediterranean and the crepes are still, still going hot.

• 26:07Rich Roll?

  Right. Interesting. So, well, let's talk about clean sport. I mean, you got a tattoo, right?

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:12Rich Roll?

  You have a clean sport. Let me see that.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 26:13Rich Roll?

  Show it to me. Oh, that's cool. So it's like a, it's like the Fight Club soap bar.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's that.

• 26:20Rich Roll?

  It says clean on it. That's interesting. So, um, you know, tell me about, tell me about, uh, you know, doping culture from your perspective, like what you saw, what you experienced and, and, you know, the current state of what's going on.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Right. The, I fortunately, like, I didn't see much. Like I said, I came into it kind of at the tail end of it. There was, it, it was, I think when I started, it was still bad in Europe, but it was, it was, there was starting to be a fallout. There were starting to be like teams that marketed themselves as clean, um, and that kind of meant it. Um, but.

• 26:55Rich Roll?

  Well, Garmin was founded on that principle, right?

• 26:57Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 26:58Rich Roll?

  With Vodders and trying to clean everything up. And then they had a few, like, sort of bumps in the road, I think, right? Yeah.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not easy.

• 27:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Um, but so, so kind of when I started, it was, uh, it was, it was the tail end of that. And, and I didn't really realize, like, once a year, somebody I raced with would go positive. And, and you'd be like, oh, man, like.

• 27:19Rich Roll?

  And would you be surprised? Or it like, what is the, the sort of, um, you know, you hear a lot about like the sort of esprit de corps, like what, you know, people kind of, like, if you're in the peloton, you kind of know who's doing what.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:33Rich Roll?

  Nobody's saying anything and.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there was a point where, where, man, I'm 19 and like, I just, I missed, I was completely into all of that. And, but then you sort of figure it out. You're, you experience a few, like you're, I was, I was in this race in the Bahamas once and this like one kind of like older guy who was just this older amateur at, like, he attacked the, the breakaway. There's six guys left and this guy goes and he's like out of side immediately at twice our speed. And I'm like, I've never seen that before. And, uh, and then he tests positive for human growth hormone six milliliter. I'm like, okay, that's what a dover looks like. That's, that's how I figured that out. But, um, yeah. So kind of when I, when I understood it, when you realized like the extent of, of the doping, what was going on in Europe and what my sport sort of had become, I was too deep in it to want

• 28:21Speaker 01

  to stop. Like I loved it and, and I was kind of like committed as far as what I was doing with, with my athletic career. And, uh, and that was when I got the tattoo. I was real pissed.

• 28:32Rich Roll?

  But you didn't, it wasn't like part of the culture that you kind of read about from the Lance era where you're seeing it? Or you know that certain teams are doing it and you kind of entered a little bit later.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Not, yeah, not in the US. That was, that was going on somewhere, but, but in the US, like the teams I was on, the age that I came up in, like, those guys wouldn't see it. We just kind of had the tail end of it. So a couple of the older guys, a lot of times what would happen is like, the older riders in, in Europe, if they couldn't get a contract for whatever suspicions or something, they'd come race in the US on, on, in that whole league. So we'd have like, the Francisco Mansabe would be one where like, he was, he was probably one of the guys in the, the whole, all the scandals and the blood bags and all this stuff. And nobody wants to sign him. So he ends up like, just killing a bunch of like 23 year old American kids for five years and he's making six figures and we're like, how do you beat this guy?

• 29:27Rich Roll?

  Right. So, uh, so when you look at the sport now, I mean, do you have a sense of how clean it is or, or work that still needs to be done? Like, do you think that the protocols that are in place right now are sufficient? And can you say with confidence that, that people are racing clean? Or like, how do you kind of think about it?

• 29:47Speaker 01

  I think it's, it's gotten way better. Um, and like, you don't know until you're there and I got there, right? So like, I was racing at that level and I was like, I, I won one race, but a lot of times like I could be in the pack and I'm doing my job and there's guys that are better than me. There's guys that are worse than me. And like, if I went to the front on a climb, I could make it. So there's 20 guys left. Like I was capable of that. So how dirty could it be? And that's really the only way you know is when you can feel it.

• 30:13Rich Roll?

  Just when a guy like rides away from everyone.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, but then there were a few, there, there's still some of that. There's still some guys who were kind of involved in that other era and kind of slipped away and, and either like, they're still up to some gray area stuff like they're, the, the, the governing bodies could never do enough, you know, like you can't, you can never stay ahead of the curve. It's, it's like anything else. It's like Wall Street. Like the guy who, the guy who graduated from, from Stanford or Harvard is, is working on Wall Street. And the guy who's regulated him went to University of Florida. So he's never, it's never going to work.

• 30:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's interesting. I had a, I had a guy on the podcast a couple of years ago, who was a hedge fund trader and he ended up getting involved in some insider trading. And then, you know, what started off is it was so, the way he like walked through like that moment where he made his first sort of insider trade.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:10Rich Roll?

  And the kind of ethical conundrum it put him in, but then, once he did it and it was okay, and then it became easier, and before he knew it, he's like handing, you know, brown bags of cash to strange people on street corners and, and it just got easier and easier. And he, he got into it because he was just trying to keep up with the culture. You know, it was going on all around him and it was normalized.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  That sounds exactly like doping.

• 31:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And then one day he gets a tap on the shoulder from a guy in aviator shades and says, get in the back of the suburban, you know? And then he ends up becoming like this prolific FBI informant and his information, which was responsible for toppling a lot of the top guys in the world. And I had a chance to talk to him and he told me the whole thing. It was like this epic two hour story. And it was right after he had been sentenced and his whole life had fallen apart. He was a felon. He was going to avoid jail time, but you know, his world had crumbled around him. But I had so much empathy for him because I could, I was trying to walk a mile in his shoes. And I'd like to say, if I was him, I wouldn't have done that, but you know, I don't know that.

• 32:16Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? I wasn't part of that culture. And so I'm very reticent to pass judgment on anybody who crossed that line in cycling. Like it's so analogous. Like I wasn't there. I wasn't part of that. I would like to think that I wouldn't make that choice. But when you're surrounded by an entire community of people that are doing it, you know, it becomes trickier to levy like hardcore judgment on people that made that choice, that are just trying to hang on to their job so that they can continue to do the thing that they love, you know? But it sounds like you never were kind of presented with that moment. Like there was no moment where it became a tempting thing for you.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  No, no one ever like handed me a needle and I had to be like, no, man, that's not my thing. Like I'm not. But that was part of the

• 33:01Rich Roll?

  But that's encouraging that you weren't presented with that.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Or like, they would have, but I had a tattoo and they knew it wouldn't go well.

• 33:07Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  That could be the, but I don't, I don't think so. I really don't believe that. I think, I think it's significantly cleaner. And, and to speak to what you're saying, like, I know, I know a lot of dopers and a lot of my friends, like, and, and you're exactly right. Like, there's some who, there's some who you sit in a room with and you're kind of like, or you hear stories like, that guy's bloodthirsty. That's like a dark human being who, who, who tried, who wanted to dope, who needed this, who like, made the effort. And then there's another one who like, that guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time at 19. And, and he never had a shot. And you kind of do have the empathy and

• 33:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's a qualitative difference between those two archetypes, I think.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  And, and part of the reason I got the tattoo is kind of like, if it is like that, you know, and if you can empathize and understand, it's kind of like, I want to look at this and remember who I am.

• 33:56Rich Roll?

  Right, holds you accountable.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  With that decision, that, that here's, so the deal was like, a bunch of guys got the same tattoo or similar ones, different versions. And, and it was like, if you ever, if you ever dope, we're scraping it off you. That was, that was our little, like, picky swear to each other.

• 34:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  So accountability.

• 34:20Rich Roll?

  So you're, you're racing for Garmin in 2014 and did you go to, you were, you were in Girona, you're doing the whole deal and all of that? And then, but that was like a, only a one-year deal, right?

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:31Rich Roll?

  You ended up on a different team after that?

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Exactly. So that was, they, that's the thing, that sort of the whole time I was kind of facing this like shrinking sport. So as I'm getting better and the ladder's getting chopped down, I, I did well that year. I'll, I'll, I'll be honest with myself. And I'm usually not easy on myself, but I was, I was good. And then a couple of teams folded and Garmin Sharp merged with this Italian team called Cannondale. It wasn't exactly a merger, they kind of just ate them. And, but it was a bloodbath as far as the rosters of two teams coming together. So I went, went back to the US, went back to the minor leagues, basically for a year, this team called Optum. And was good enough there, jumped back over to Cannondale the year after. They're like, all right, Phil, I'll have you back. And then, then that year I wasn't so good. And at the end of that, I kind of retired.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  That was sort of like, um, this is all I got. I emptied my, my tank.

• 35:21Rich Roll?

  So you didn't, I mean, you could have continued to race. I mean, you were still, you were performing at a pretty high level. Still.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. But when, I guess part of the thing for me was like, I, once I knew that my, my upward trajectory was gone, I didn't have the energy to, to claw my way back to Europe again. Um, I didn't, I didn't have the energy to like, get paid nothing again and kind of just go through that whole cycle.

• 35:45Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  And I was sort of like, it, it took everything I had to get there was, was what I kind of realized. Um, I had some personal stuff, like my dad died the year before. It kind of just knocked me out. Um, so there was, there was a lot of just in, in my head. I was sort of ready to move on at that point.

• 36:00Rich Roll?

  Right. And at that point, did you like, when did you, when did you write, uh, pro cycling on $10 a day? That was a couple of years ago, right?

• 36:08Speaker 01

  So, so that one, I, I wrote that when I was still on Bissell. So the thing is like, when you're on an American team, like the plus side of you not getting paid much is you basically, I think we only raced like 40 days a year. So you're training hard, you're training full time, but you can, you can start a business or write a book in your spare time. Like you can experiment and play with stuff. Um, so that was kind of what I did is I, I wrote that in the off season and, um,

• 36:31Rich Roll?

  And had you already been like blogging for Velo News or whatever? I mean, you were, your, your writing is all over the internet in the cycling community. So did you, like, when did you realize like, oh, I have a voice, like, you know, I have, I have something to say about this and, and, and the desire to kind of like share your perspective?

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, I've, I've definitely always had a mouth as far as a voice. Um, so I went to school. I finished an English degree, minor in journalism. So I guess that was always in me. I was just like telling stories and, and kind of like driving, trying to have a point of view. Um, and so when I finished college and my parents weren't super stoked on me being a full-time bike racer for $2,000 a year. So I was kind of like, oh, I'm going to freelance write. I'm going to do that. So I, I, I got,

• 37:15Rich Roll?

  That was your side hustle.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Right. So that was bicycling magazine was like my first writing gig. So it was once a week, I'd write a little blog about being a sad amateur.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  And then that moved to Velo News. And then at some point I kind of collected all that. I was like, oh, I have 200,000 words. I could cut that out and kind of make a book out of it.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so pro cycling $10 a day was kind of that story of, of coming up from college and, And it ends with me signing to Garmin Sharp, which is, which is so funny. And you write an autobiography at 28. I laugh at like the ego of myself at that point. I was like, oh, it's gonna be smooth sailing from here. Like it's, you know, I, I made it. And then you get there and it's like, you're living in a crappy apartment in Girona and you're getting your butt kicked in Belgium. And, and it was far from, from Easy Street.

• 38:04Rich Roll?

  Belgium sounds miserable. Like it's just like the weather's bad, right? Like it's cold. And then you go to these one day races where it's freezing out.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's definitely a lot of points in like the glamorous life of a pro cyclist is you're like, you're in a, you're in a rented bus. Cause like the big bus is at the big race. And if you're even on the best team in the world, there's like, you know, A, B, A races, B races. And I'm at a C race in Belgium in like a, a weekend rental bus. And you're just like looking out the window. And it's like, I'm one of the best in the world of this thing. And it's just dumping rain. It's like, yeah, I gotta go out there for a day. It's like, you're just covering like your legs with lotions and, and hot creams.

• 38:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's, I don't know, man. You gotta love it. You know, you gotta, you gotta be doing it for the love. Well, what's, what's interesting about a lot of the pro cyclists is, um, once they retire, they still go out and like ride every day. Like they still love the bike. Like I know a lot of swimmers who when they retire, they're like, I'm done, man. Like I'm not going into the pool. Like I'm staying dry. I'm not getting wet at all. They just want nothing to do with it. But so many cyclists, you know, obviously they're doing it for the love because they just keep, they just keep riding like every day. Like they're still pros.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Right. No, I don't, I don't know how I could quit. It's, it's weird. But, uh, yeah, from, from when I stopped racing, I'm probably riding about half as much. I'm riding 12 hours a week instead of 25 or 30. But, uh, I think I'd lose my mind real quick if I, if I quit. I think I, yeah, it's, it's like, I took a month off and sort of that was when I realized I had to retire. This was like last fall. And then I came back and just went on like a Stravasprey.

• 39:46Rich Roll?

  Right. And we're gonna, we're gonna talk about that.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  It's definitely like a lifestyle. I don't know how I'd, it'd be surprising if I ever stopped riding.

• 39:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, that's, that's beautiful, you know, because your heart's in the right place with it. You're doing it for the right reasons.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Or I'm an addict and.

• 40:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, maybe that, yeah, that could be it too. When you were on Bissell, was that during the time like when Tom Zerbal got busted?

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Um, he, that was a year, that was a year before. I was teammates with Tom Zerbal on, on Optum in 2015.

• 40:18Rich Roll?

  I mean, there was a moment where he was like gonna be the next big thing.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, he, absolutely. He'd earned it and he, and he trained and then he kinda had one of those things. And this is the problem with the sport is like, you know, and, and we know the guys who got away with it. Like we literally like, you know them, you know exactly who they are. It's very easy. The like, there was the, the Operation Puerto is the big like drug scandal, um, kinda I guess of my era. And that wasn't a sponsor, fortunately. Operation Puerto was not like Festina. The, um, but they, but the, it was they, they found all these blood bags in this doctor's fridge somewhere in his back of his car and they all had like cute little code names, but it was, you could like anybody who knew anybody could figure out who was who. It, it was like, you know, the guy's wife's name or his dog's name and it, they didn't even try to disguise it. And then like,

• 41:07Speaker 01

  but they never released that and they never got official. So like you're just racing with these guys and, uh, so you know, and then, yeah. And then there's guys like Zerbal who just like, tested positive for like something, for him it was DHEA and that's like in a lot of, you know, cheap pharmaceuticals. It's like a bad steroid that lingers in your system. It's the last thing you take for doping. It's, it's the last. And, but he was over a threshold to the point where like if he'd had a bottle of water that day, he wouldn't have been positive because it's, you know, we're talking about micro milli moles or something.

• 41:37Rich Roll?

  So how does something like that end? Like, is there some pharmaceutical he was taking that accidentally had that in there? I mean, was it a mistake or?

• 41:46Speaker 01

  For, for, for him, like, I mean, I don't know, put a gun to my head. I would say it was, it was a mistake. It was, there was some kind of vitamin he was taking, some kind of a, some, something, a street taco, like all the thresholds are so, it's just, it's not a perfect system. So the, the logic of it is if you, if you're, for, if you're catching a bunch of guys, that somebody's gonna slip through who, who wasn't really. And that's, I think, just statistically. Um, and I feel like.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Victims of that.

• 42:14Rich Roll?

  There's, but that's different from like, what was the whole Contador thing with the like,

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:18Rich Roll?

  The meat.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:20Rich Roll?

  He ate that meat or something like that?

• 42:22Speaker 01

  That was his excuse. But that's the funny thing is like, the thing that he tested positive for, like, could have been from banned meat, except he was probably on EPO before that. So it's kind of like, a lot of weird things like that.

• 42:35Rich Roll?

  Do you think that, like, what, you know, the advances in pharmaceuticals and genetic engineering, like, all this, the gestalt of like, technological progress is so rapid these days that it's hard to imagine that there isn't a fringe that's just always going to be a couple steps ahead of whatever the testing protocols are going to be able to to test for.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Right. I think that's, that's 100% the case. And, and I think that would apply to any sport or like any aspect of society like Wall Street. And, and unfortunately, like in cycling, because of, because how bad it was, because how heavy it was, I feel like, that's become the narrative in cycling is, is who's doping and who's not. And, and you'll hear, you'll hear like, if you hear old football fans or old, you know, basketball fans, they're like, would LeBron beat Michael Jordan at his prime? Like, that's the stuff they debate about to ad nauseam. And, and in cycling, it's, what was that guy on? You know, what was he doing? And I think because as part of the story, it kind of cycles and it, and it makes it worse.

• 43:39Rich Roll?

  It needs, I feel like it, the sport needs some breath of fresh air to reinvigorate public enthusiasm about it. Cause I just know personally, like as a fan, like I was super into watching it, followed it really closely from like, I don't know, 2007 to 2010 or 11 or something like that. And then, and then I just was like, I'm just, I can't get into it. You know, I just can't get, I can't get up for like, being psyched to watch these races anymore.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:10Rich Roll?

  You know, I don't know whether that's because we need a new superstar or so, you know, a personality to get us excited about it, or just a sense that what we're watching is real.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Right. I, I hear you. I don't, I don't know the answer to it. There's, there's definitely like, I think there's a lot of problems, obviously there's a lot of problems in the sport. I think one is the.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  The grand tours, like the big races, the ones that are on TV, I think they're sort of, they forget that the riders aren't doing EPO anymore. So they're like, there's this weird penis sizing contest of who can have the hardest stage race between the Tour of Spain and the Tour de France and the Vuelta. And they're all like, well, we have 16 mountain tough finishes this year. And it's kind of like, all that means is the best climber wins by more, and it's less watchable. And if they wanted to make it more competitive, that, you know, it should come down to a time bonus the last day. That's what people are watching.

• 45:00Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  But, but yeah, there's so much history to it that it's hard to sort of, it's hard to sort of fix. The sport has kind of evolved so much that it doesn't know what to do with itself, I think.

• 45:12Rich Roll?

  I think it's also fraught with so much crony politics, especially in Europe, that there's an old guard that's holding on to a certain way of doing things. And until, you know, a new era, a new generation of people that are kind of organizing these races and controlling the governing bodies of these organizations, it's going to stay the same.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, of all the things that have been proposed, I think, to me, part of what I, I don't think anything's going to work. I'll start there. Like, of all the solutions that you see, it doesn't, it's not like that's the thing that's going to solve it. But I, part of what I always liked about cycling was kind of like, there is this kooky charm of, it's a circus. Like, it's a bike race, but it's also a circus. And you can, as a fan, you can sort of laugh at it. I don't know if you were watching the Tour last year, the day that like, Chris Froome ran into the motorcycle. They're like, racing up this mountain, and it's the, it's the top four guys left, and they're ripping up this mountain, and there's a sea of people, and it's the beautiful spectacle. Oh, they're all on the ground. And then the next, like, it cuts to, we don't know what happened, we don't know why they crashed. And then the next thing you see is Chris Froome running up the mountain. And it's kind of like,

• 46:24Speaker 01

  That's our sport. That's unfortunately like you can, you can call it whatever you want. You can act as professional as you want. You can take his speed suit to wind tunnels, but he's running up a mountain in his crates and no one knows where his bike is.

• 46:36Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, it's kind of hilarious and it's the, you know, the, it's the drama, you know, the drama. It's sort of like crashes in NASCAR or something like that.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Exactly. And that's, it's, it's so crappy as an athlete to like, to look at like, I would watch like the promos for the tour, the little, little ads they have for the Tour de France and like three out of four clips are just somebody sliding into a fence. It's like, oh, that's what you guys want to see me do.

• 46:57Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah. Like going over the guardrail.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  Right, right. Okay. Yeah, that's dramatic, but ow.

• 47:03Rich Roll?

  So walk me through like a typical training day or training week in the life of a professional cyclist. Like what is that, what is that monk-like existence all about?

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Sure. Um, it, I don't know. It's not that bad. Cause like when, when you're in the, when you're in the thick of it in like in Europe, those guys like your, your race schedule is your training, right? Like essentially like your curve is determined by, cause you're doing week on, week off stage races, um, like half the spring. So when you're, when you're at home, when you're training, you're, you're kind of mostly resting, you're recovering from, from whatever, cause you're thrashed at the end of those. Um, but, but typically like the routine would be like, say you have a month in, in Spain or something. Um, you, you kind of get up, have breakfast, get on the bike at 10, you meet your buddies. There's like in Girona, there was like a text thread, like a WhatsApp group of, of a bunch of the teammates or English speakers, just all my friends basically. And you kind of message

• 47:58Speaker 01

  them like, hey, I'm doing four hours tomorrow. I want to do three climbs and I'm meeting at this cafe at 10. And, uh, and you go, you ride, do a few hours, you stop for a Coke and a crepe somewhere. And you know, the crepes de sucre, not the, not the ones with the salmon, all that bullshit in them. Um, But uh, and then, and then you go ride a few more mountains. So it's you're, you're smashing each other on the bike for three hours. Then you take a break and you enjoy yourself and then you go do it again. And uh, and in Spain, like dinner doesn't start until eight o'clock, basically. And, and you're out. It's, it's a nice little life. If you can get there.

• 48:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's very gentlemanly.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. It is. It's civil. In, in the top league, like it's not cutthroat. You're not competing with other riders on other teams for, for whatever. Like it's, it's very adult. It's professional. Like you're, you're all in this together. You're not taking risks in the races as much like if families.

• 48:50Rich Roll?

  And are, do you work with a coach or are you responsible for just sort of determining your own training plan? Or how does that work?

• 48:57Speaker 01

  With, with teams, it's kind of 50 50. Most I would maybe, maybe more than half of like the world tour teams, the top tier teams have like a team coach and you have to be, you have to be working under them and they're giving you all the rides to do. And that kind of goes with your racing on, on the teams I was on, I always had my own coach, just a, a friend from Boulder, basically who I'd known for a long time.

• 49:17Rich Roll?

  So you have to hire your own coach?

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:20Rich Roll?

  And that's on you.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's you're paying for that. It is. It's bizarre. Well, the whole sport is.

• 49:23Rich Roll?

  Be like Tom Brady, like, you know, just doing his own thing and like hiring his own coach, you know, like it just, it's bizarre.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  No. And so much of it is like that. And I think it, well, the whole sport, we talked about like the first tour de France, there's no drafting. You might have a sponsor. There's one, there's one, there's no team. And then sort of later it evolves into it's now it's a full on team sport. Like Chris Froome wins a tour de France. He touched the wind for 5% of it. Was he actually like doing his job and the rest of it, his teammates who like, their finish line is 5K to go, but those guys are good. And then at the end, like he's the one who gets all the money and he's the one on the podium. Like it's, in, in the NBA, like, you know, the Chicago Bulls win. And in this, it's like Chris Froome won, he's, he's riding for Team Sky.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  But so the money, the, the money doesn't go to the team, like the sponsor, whatever, that recognition doesn't go to the sponsor as much as it should. And then it, the results end up being very skewed, which probably is a lot of the reason guys dope too.

• 50:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, I think people underestimate the team aspect of the whole affair. You know, and how much the teammates, you know, basically sacrificed themselves for the frooms of the world.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Right, and it's a chicken and the egg. If they put the whole team on the podium, maybe it would look different. Maybe people would see sort of how that should look.

• 50:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you would imagine like, oh, well, you're riding for Garmin, so Vauder's is telling you what to do and, you know, he's giving you your workouts. And it's like, no, he has nothing to do with that, really, right? Like, that's not, I mean, his job is to like, manage the team and see the big picture.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think he coached like personally, one or two guys the last couple of years. But, and there was a team coach, if you wanted to work with him, I think maybe five or six guys. But, and they sort of, the team coach would interface with your coach and sort of make sure you're on track. And there, you know, you upload your power data to somebody's website and nobody actually looks at it, but they make you think they're looking at it. And they're kind of enforcing. But this is just the budgets not there to sort of, at least it wasn't to oversee me. Like, I was, I was at the bottom of fringe, I could do whatever I want, nobody would have noticed, but.

• 51:22Rich Roll?

  Are you like a data geek freak kind of guy who's super into your, you know, kilojoules and watching your watts and all of that? Like, how, how important, you know, is all of that? Like, when you were training at your, you know, at your sort of peak?

• 51:36Speaker 01

  It's, it's a tool as far as like, I know a lot about it and my coach knows a lot about it. And that was part of what, like, my workout would be ride this many, like, go out and do 3,500 kilojoules and then start doing your intervals. So I know a lot about it, but I say I'm far from a geek as far as it's like the last thing I want to talk about. And I know like, what it's worth to have good power. Like, there's, there's so much, there's so much else to the sport and, and the dynamics of a race. Like, I know a lot of guys with amazing power who cannot win a bike race. And, and I know some guys who like, you see their power and it's like, how have you ever won anything? Like, you must be some kind of a ninja. It's, it's like a small fraction of the picture.

• 52:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you see this culture of amateur athletes that are so into, you know, their garment and their Strava and like, you know, their heart rate and their watts and all that kind of stuff. It's so easy to get super caught up in that. And pretty much without fail, when I talk to professional athletes, like, they have a much more balanced arms-length relationship with wearables and all of that kind of stuff.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Right. Like, it's one of the things that you look at. But I think a lot of cycling, and this comes to like, the bike itself, like, people, I think a large percentage of people who ride bikes just like having nice bikes. And it's more, it's like, half tinkering and half collecting. And if you ride your bike at all, it's a bonus.

• 53:02Rich Roll?

  That's a very politic way of describing a certain aspect of cycling culture.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  Right. So, but I mean, it's like, if that's what you're into, that's what you're into. People like working on cars. People like, you know, shining their bike. And that's not, that's not what I'm into it for. But, and with the same thing, like, geeking out on the power data is another side of it, that some people just get, get super into to the point that it's, it's really funny to be me, or to have good power, to be anybody. And just like, if you're a pro, you're scared to tell anybody your power. Because I had, like, I had, I won this race in the US, and some magazine featured my power file. And, and the comments and the feedback that I got from it, it was, it was 50/50. That power is too good, you're a doper, obviously. And 50/50, like, you should quit, I'm better

• 53:51Speaker 01

  than that. There was nothing in between. There was no, like, good effort, Phil. And, and it's frustrating. But it's more just, it's hilarious at some point, once you get out of it.

• 54:01Rich Roll?

  Have you ever bet on slowtwitch.com?

• 54:03Speaker 01

  I mean, enough.

• 54:05Rich Roll?

  They have a whole forum there. That's like, it's like a sewer of that kind of, you know, attitude. It can be.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  I started putting my files on Strava, and there's, it's, it's funny, just the comments, and people are like, "Your power meter's off. That can't be possible." And I'm like, "No, this is all I ever did. Like, I'm gonna beat the local guy by a lot on the thing."

• 54:26Rich Roll?

  There's gotta be a lot of pros though that don't want, they don't want to share that, that information though, because they think if their competitors see that, then they'll be clued into what they're doing, or they're kind of tipping their hat as to where they're at in their training.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, that's, I think like the, the top guys, I kind of see that, like, if, if you're, if the Tour de France is basically like a lactate threshold contest, you know, Chris Froome wouldn't want anybody to know where his is.

• 54:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  I, I still think that whole thing, given the doping culture, given all of it, like, I think that's kind of silly. And what's it gonna, what's it gonna reveal? I, I feel like people should, transparency is nice.

• 55:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  And given the other hurdles that we're dealing with, I don't see why they're like hiding their data as if it's, as if there's anything really special to it, like, we can all guess.

• 55:11Rich Roll?

  Right. And you kind of know who's, who's who and, and who's gonna be where. And ultimately on race day, you gotta show up and race, right?

• 55:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:19Rich Roll?

  You know, it's almost like, I mean, some guys put tape over their Garmin devices, right? Because they just want to race and go on feel and not be like, because it can play head games with you if your watts are off. And, you know, it can take you out of what you're trying to accomplish.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Sure. That, that's definitely like an amateur thing is, is like staring at the power too much and, and not know. If, if you're, if you're doing it long enough, if you're a professional, like, you can feel when you're at threshold or above threshold, like, you don't need, I would, I would do the exact same time trial effort if I was looking at power, if I wasn't.

• 55:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  And that goes at that level with everyone.

• 55:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, I know, you know, my background is swimming, so like, I know when I swim 100 meters, like, I could tell you within a second, like, what that time is, just because you've been doing it forever. I'm sure you, at any moment, you could say, my heart rate is this, and this is what my watts are, just based on how in touch you are, like, how connected you are to the bike.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  And, but, and if, the same thing, like, if you're a runner and all you're doing is like staring at your, at your lap times or your splits, then... Eventually you'll go insane if you're trying to be better every day and you can't just sort of tune out with like, here's my workout, here's what I'm doing, here's how I feel. Yeah, you can, you can fall down the, the rabbit hole of, of power.

• 56:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I think the other thing that, that a lot of people don't realize about professional cycling is a lot of the, a lot of the saddle time is saddle time. Like there's a lot of like low-grade aerobic, you know, just getting out and riding and, you know, you're not just out killing yourself for eight hours every single day. Like there's a lot of just, you know, enjoyable riding, just putting miles on your bike and getting used to what it feels like to just kind of be out all day in a very casual kind of pace.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  The, the middle, the middle third of like every big race, like you're trading recipes in a pack, like your heart rate is 120. And so it's at that point, like when you're training for that, you're sort of training to like burn fat more efficiently and, and your metabolism and stuff like that. Like that's where the gains are made in, in that part of the race.

• 57:21Rich Roll?

  What do you think is the biggest misconception that people have about being a professional cyclist? And we kind of talked about some of them already.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  I mean, probably like the, the doping is one thing. There's still like a pretty decent percent of people just like, yeah, they're all on it. This is, this is a stupid sport. I'm like, are you really a fan of cycling if you think that? Like I'm, like I've, I've, I don't know, you see it all if you look at it, but I would say like it, the, the glory of it and the kind of the professional athlete mystique is, is shattered when you're in it. And that's not to say like, it's not beautiful, but it's also, it's a circus. And that's, that's definitely like the, I've, I've been at race buffets, you know, somewhere in Argentina or something. And like, like we're eating cold rice and it's like the best guys in the world. And it's like, that's, that's it. And it's like, like that's Mark Cavendish

• 58:11Speaker 01

  and he's eating the same thing I am. And like, isn't he a millionaire? And, but that's, that's what happened.

• 58:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You tweeted the other day, like you were recollecting some moment where you were like lugging a suitcase down the street.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 58:24Rich Roll?

  Like at, at one of the one day, like Roubaix or something like that.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 58:28Rich Roll?

  And Taylor Finney walks by and you're just like, oh, this is great.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  Well, that was the, so Perry Roubaix, uh, last year, 2016, I'm on Cannondale and I'm like, Hanging out in Girona, training for for some stage races with mountains where I belong. Like, I don't, the cobblestone one day thing, like, I'm a climber, I don't, I have no business there. But there was a point where somehow, like, a cold went around the whole team and everybody got sick and like, I got to be the guy they called to like, be the last spot. Like, you have to fill eight spots or nine spots, whatever, at a big race like that, or there's like a fine. So literally, they just needed like a body. And I was the sacrificial climber lamb who was thrown to it. So like, I got a call like 48 hours before the biggest race in the world. And they're like, yo, Phil, we need you. I'm like, oh, God. And like,

• 59:13Speaker 01

  I've never, you know, they use like a specific bike for that. And like, I've never touched any of it.

• 59:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a whole thing. Explain to people the world of Paris-Roubaix.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Paris-Roubaix, it's, it's, so the Tour de France is like the, the main race of, of cycling. But then Paris-Roubaix is kind of the, it's a one day, there's, there's cobblestones, there's carnages, there's these three foot wide roads that you're somehow racing on. But like, it's not even possible to have a race on it. But it's the biggest thing that happens in Belgium. And, and it's, it's like in this small pocket of our sport, it's like the big one day race. It probably gets better, like, TV ratings than the Tour, because it's all concentrated. But it's always, it's just a famous mess for just like, bikes aren't meant for these roads. And, and it's, it's a zoo.

• 59:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're literally riding on these cobblestones where you just feel like you're getting jackhammered.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  Right. You're, you're pounded. And so the specialists at this are like the sprinter types, the big, heavy dudes who grew up in.

• 1:00:05Rich Roll?

  Tom Boonan.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Exactly. Tom Boonan and Peter Sagan, like those, those dudes. Not the, the skinny 150 pound, 6'1" guys.

• 1:00:13Rich Roll?

  Right. So what was that like for you?

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Well, it was, at some point, like, I was, I was there and I sort of knew my, my role. And, and I was kind of like, I'm just gonna enjoy this. Like, I don't know, I can't do anything. Like, I'm just gonna try to not die. But, but it was kind of like, when, when I was called up, it was like immediately a joke, like, in the, worldwide in the cycling world, there was, there was a hashtag pray for Phil campaign on Twitter. From, and, and but, but then, like, they do the call ups, they do like the, the announcement and the team presentation. And, and on my team, all the guys line up and I get the loudest cheer, like, all ironically.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  And I just like, I just always have laughed at it. So that was like the moment of I, I arrived and I'm walking down the hallway and, and like Finney who like is born for this and like this is like his thing of, of the year. Um, you know, he could, he could win it someday and he, he kind of comes out in the hallway and sees me and just starts busting out laughing like, like have fun tomorrow. I did alright. I got in the early break. That's hard. That was, uh, that's definitely better than, than I was expected to do.

• 1:01:14Rich Roll?

  Listen, man, for any, you know, I, I, I'm sure there's legion of professional cyclists and young cyclists who, who would dream of doing that race one day.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:01:23Rich Roll?

  It's cool to have that experience.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, totally. Even, even though like it sort of meant something about the way my career was headed that like I was the guy called up for the race that, that, that was like one of the signs, one of the nails in my coffin of being a pro cyclist was, was that's my job on this team. A joke.

• 1:01:48Rich Roll?

  Well, let's talk about the worst retirement ever.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:01:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So you decide to retire, but it's, it's not really, it's not really a retirement because you're on a mission.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  Right. Well, my, my joke is kind of like, I was, I wasn't good enough to be a pro cyclist and I'm going to be the worst at retiring. And so I'm gonna like, I'm, I'm starting a job soon.

• 1:02:07Rich Roll?

  The best, you know.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  Or yeah. So I mean, quietly, it's the best retirement ever. That's the tongue in cheek idea, but, because nobody's making me do it. It's, so it's, it's all my idea. But so the, the concept is, um, I'm, I'm going after hill climb records and, and basically Stravas, but more broadly, like the records could have been established a long time ago. Um, kind of all over the country. And I, I kind of, I had a few sponsor relationships and we're just doing the YouTube channel around it. So it's all, it's all tongue in cheek, but part of, part of what's funny is like, I'm, I'm kind of making fun of the people who, who take Strava too serious, people who take power too seriously. And to the point where I'm going, I'm going far overboard. And I'm, I'm going after Tom Danielson's Strava segment in Tucson on Mount Lemon. And I have a 13 pound bike and I

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  have a $400 speed suit and I have a follow car.

• 1:02:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  And, and we're filming it and it's still like, okay, I'm just taking this to 11 and, and all you guys can get mad at me.

• 1:03:01Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  Um, but it's, it's been, it's been really funny. I think it's a good way to like, To kind of go away.

• 1:03:07Rich Roll?

  It's a great idea, you know, I'm not surprised like tons of sponsors want to get on board with that and, and you know, film it for YouTube and you're on this mission to like tackle all these challenges. But I think in order to kind of provide context for that, you have to talk a little bit about sort of the origin of Strava and Strava culture and kind of what's happened with all of these KOMs. I mean, I remember being out here when Strava first launched and I was training for Ultraman and I would, I would do, I would train a fair amount with like Ben Bostrom, you know, Ben?

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:40Rich Roll?

  And in the early days, like Ben was going around taking the KOMs everywhere. Like that guy's a, even though he was, I mean, I think that guy could, he could have been a professional cyclist.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 1:03:49Rich Roll?

  I don't know why he never like,

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  He probably made more money doing his thing.

• 1:03:52Rich Roll?

  He is so talented on a bike. Like he would ride up Latigo on his mountain bike and just crush most people, you know? But he was taking them and then Dave Zabriski was taking a bunch and it was all kind of like fun. And I had to get off Strava because I was trying to train for Ultraman and like I had to be in aerobic zone most of the time and it would screw with my head because I, I'd hit a climb and I'd be thinking, what is this going to look like on Strava? And it's not moving the ball forward in terms of what I'm trying to ultimately accomplish. So I had to log off and not deal with it anymore. But it was kind of fun. It was cool. And with all the hills, you know, all the climbs around the Malibu, you know, Santa Monica Mountains, there was like a healthy competition around

• 1:04:33Rich Roll?

  it. And then with Tour of California and the growth of Strava, there was a lot of professional cyclists getting into the game. And then a lot of the KOMs started being taken by, you know, real riders in the mix. And then a lot of riders who ultimately got, got busted for doping, right? So a lot of these KOMs are held by dopers or ex dopers.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  Right. It's, yeah, it's funny, like that whole, that whole world of Strava and it's like a world in itself. But yeah, especially like around here, there's,

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  The KOMs here are all, they're all world-class. Like, everything, everything here is either like from the Tour of California or from like a pro training camp. And so, so for me, for me, for me to get them, I honestly like do feel proud of the ones that I get.

• 1:05:19Rich Roll?

  But part of the mission really is to reclaim these KOMs clean.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  Right. So that was, that was sort of how it started. That would be the genesis of it was there was, there was one guy who, who lived in LA and kind of was, he was sort of a known doper. He tested positive at Masters Nationals years before and then he got caught. Uh, he'd been selling EPO online. Um, and, and after, I think after all of that, he, he made it a mission to like, got, he got all of the ones in LA.

• 1:05:48Rich Roll?

  And he was, he was, he was under a pseudonym on Strava though, right?

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  I don't want to give him the publicity, but he, uh, but yeah, he had like a fake name that was sort of tongue-in-cheek. And, and he had this like clothing brand he was trying to promote. And, and he promoted that via like Strava and Instagram, which is like a bizarre business model. And, and then sort of people figured out his past. And, and it, it, I guess it looked to them like he was doping for Strava. I don't know if that's true, but it was, it was enough that like, when he's on the top of every leaderboard in LA, it was kind of an eyesore for that community.

• 1:06:20Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. But he was Strava famous.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. He made himself Strava famous. And he went and like, I mean, he was strong and like, so a local elite amateur or even pro like who wasn't a climbing specific dude, really couldn't get him. Like they were out of reach for, for most humans.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  So then when I retired, I kind of just like went on a group ride for fun. I went on like the, the Nichols ride is the big fast person ride on, on Sunday mornings in LA. And, and I, I, I just went as hard as I could. I was in a bad mood. And, and I end up getting the Strava for Nichols Canyon. And all of my friends, like I, my cell phone blew up that night. Like I just won a big race in Europe. Like it was, it exploded. Like dude, you got Nichols. I was like, you guys like this?

• 1:07:02Rich Roll?

  You're getting more attention than you were when you were riding for Garmin.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  Right. I was like, hey, like, how dare you guys be surprised that I can get a Strava from like like an amateur guy who, you know, and, and be like, okay, this is what I'm gonna do now. So like, I would just peck away and I eventually like, I got all the ones from him and then I kind of challenged myself and got all the ones in the canyons from the pros here and dopier or not dopier. But, but that sort of became the story is like, I'm, I'm like the Robin Hood stealing the KOM spec for the clean riders.

• 1:07:33Rich Roll?

  Right. So how many of them do you have around you? Do you have Lattigo now?

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:37Rich Roll?

  You do?

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got that. That was a good one.

• 1:07:40Rich Roll?

  That's the jewel.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's the one. No, I basically, I have all the good ones in the canyons now. So I have my Fondo and I wanted to get all those.

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  And then I have, yeah, I basically like went and collected them. So I'm, I'm the, the king of the Santa Monica Mountains at this point. I'm the king of this tiny kingdom.

• 1:07:55Rich Roll?

  So you have, oh, you have every, you have basically have every climb. Do you have, do you have Stunt Road?

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got Stunt Road, man. Yeah.

• 1:08:01Rich Roll?

  For people that are listening, Stunt Road is like literally one mile from where we're sitting right here.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  I got Payuma, you know, you just list them, man. I got Rock Store.

• 1:08:09Rich Roll?

  Dude, you are a superstar. How many people are following you on Strava now?

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  I like 8,000 or something. I don't know. But it's, it's funny because like I, when, as, as a pro cyclist, like you're an athlete, it's, but it's a fringe sport. I would, if I rode my, my bike in my hand and a little kit or something like I'd get recognized in, on, on the road every day. Street clothes, very close to Nefer a few times a year. Since I retired and stopped racing professionally and I started going for Stunt Road in a skin suit with, covered in cookies. It, I get recognized on the street, like weekly, maybe it's like, as like the Strava guy. And it's funny, like people, I don't know how that works, but the, it's, it's bigger than you think that world and, and it does, it means something to people. Like it doesn't, it means less to me

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  to have these KOMs. I just think it's fun. But, but some people are like, they were super stoked about it. So it's been a fun mission.

• 1:09:03Rich Roll?

  It's interesting that like you, you found your niche as a professional cyclist, like becoming more well-known and recognized, you know, post-professional career by virtue of social media.

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  And it was all a joke. Like I was just, I was kind of just killing time until my contract was out and I was going to start a job, which I still am, but the, Yeah, I was just messing around and then it kind of snowballed and then companies like, "Hey, can we sponsor you?" And I was like, "Are you serious? For Strava? Fine."

• 1:09:31Rich Roll?

  You should make it so like you're, you're just, you get all these sponsors and you're making way more money like doing this than you were when you were actually a professional.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  The budget for my YouTube, it's, it's very close to where

• 1:09:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's, that's

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  Being a low-paid, for every team other than the world tour stuff.

• 1:09:46Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's an awesome side hustle. You know what I mean? Like leveraging social media and people's interest. You know, there's a huge, like you said, like the Strava community is passionate in large. You know what I mean? There's a lot of attention on that. And to be able to kind of, you know, show your prowess in that world is a, is a cool thing. Like you got, did you get Mount Ekaia?

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:05Rich Roll?

  I think you saw that.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  That was part of, that was one of the first ones that I went for.

• 1:10:08Rich Roll?

  And Baldi?

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, and I'm, so the, the whole, the whole YouTube mission is like, I kind of, because it's, it's social media based, I'll sort of crowdsource it. And I'll just put on Facebook like, "Hey, vote. You know, I want to go to the southeast. What's my climb?" And, and, you know, more votes are on Mount Mitchell, so I'm going to Mount Mitchell. And, and we'll see what I can do there.

• 1:10:31Rich Roll?

  And you got, uh, Mount Lemon coming up?

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  Um, I, I did, I taped Mount Lemon. Mount Lemon will be, when does this come out?

• 1:10:39Rich Roll?

  Uh, I don't know.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:10:41Rich Roll?

  When should it come out?

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  Well, so I can't, can I tell the results of Mount Lemon? It'll, it'll be a couple of months until, until that episode is out.

• 1:10:47Rich Roll?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  Um, so I can't reveal if I got Mount Lemon or not.

• 1:10:50Rich Roll?

  I got you.

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  But, uh, I did not get

• 1:10:52Rich Roll?

  Creating the hype.

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  I didn't get Palomar. That was, I was nine seconds short on Palomar. That was disappointing.

• 1:10:57Rich Roll?

  Who owns that one?

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  Uh, Chris Horner, who I'm not a fan of. So that was, that was personal. So that was more fun. So, uh, but so it's, it's that kind of the whole story.

• 1:11:06Rich Roll?

  Did, did you, you raced him up Baldi once, right?

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I raced him a ton. So when he, he was kind of one of the guys who, who, when Europe rejected him at, at later age and, and with a, with a, we don't know about his history kind of thing. He came back and raced in the US against like, a bunch of nice, nice kids who never were in that pool. Um, and, and I understand that, but he was also kind of a dick about it. So, so I got to, it's, it's easier to train and get off the couch if you're angry. So he, he sort of took the brunt of that, that year.

• 1:11:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  Um, and so, yeah, we had this rivalry going. So part of it is a joke. Cause like, I know he doesn't care if he has his Palomar Strava or not, because he won the Vuelta. But But so it's it's sort of the whole idea is kind of tongue in cheek. It's and it's fun. It's it gets to be like my my trolling full time.

• 1:11:53Rich Roll?

  Do you think you'll go over to Europe and tackle the the, you know, the Alps and the Pyrenees?

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  And I hope I have something better to do than a season two of Worst Retirement Ever, honestly.

• 1:12:02Rich Roll?

  Well, you're gonna um, you're gonna you're you're taking a job at Wasserman?

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's right.

• 1:12:07Rich Roll?

  That's cool. So I had Casey on the podcast.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  I heard that. That was funny.

• 1:12:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so that's cool. What are you gonna be doing over there?

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  Um, so so my, I'll be many guys under Casey. Uh, but they so my the guy who's gonna be my boss, kind of, he does events. He does brands, um, a couple of athletes. So we're sorting all that out. Um, I think I'll kind of just like start in the bottom to middle, you know, of of of being a grown up and and see my my competency and see my interest and and hope to move up. But I'm I'm lucky to to be able to get in there.

• 1:12:38Rich Roll?

  But it's more it'll be more like working with brands and events, not like representing cyclists as an agent?

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think the so my, the way I kind of got in with Wasserman was that was my agent. I was a I was a Wasserman athlete. And and the cycling, the cycling business, as we talked about, like, it's busted, man. So to be a cycling agent, like, just isn't an awesome idea. Because when he's my agent, he's like, he's kind of like, well, I can't, you can't really get endorsements because all the sponsors are team based. So it's kind of like the team has the sponsors. And then like, if the if there's something the team doesn't have a sponsor for, you're it's it's fair game. But like, the team's gonna get every bit of cash they can from the industry.

• 1:13:16Rich Roll?

  Unless you're like a Cavendish, right?

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like, he can bring Oakley and have like a side deal with somebody else like that exists. But but if you're any, if you're a guy who needs that money, like, like, one year, I had a I had a company that that wanted to pay me to wear their sunglasses, $5,000 and my salary was $50,000. So 5,000 was nice. And then the team signed a sunglass sponsor. They're like, yeah, you don't get to have that. I'm like, man. So there's a lot of that. So like, there's not much for an agent to do other than like my agent's job was like, well, I can call Vodder's again and he's not going to answer again.

• 1:13:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  So it's not, it's not a great business to be, to be that kind of, that kind of agent, I think. So there's still, he still has a few athletes and a few clients that he's working with, but, um, but mostly it's, it's in the event kind of world.

• 1:14:00Rich Roll?

  Right. And you've cut your teeth in the event space because you have your Grand Fondo.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:04Rich Roll?

  So tell me about that.

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  Well, I've cut my teeth everywhere because you have to.

• 1:14:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  But sort of last year.

• 1:14:09Rich Roll?

  Survivor.

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  Right. So last year, I kind of like the, a Grand Fondo is, it's like a mass participation bike ride. So they have like century rides that, you know, you sign up and you go and there's like a course that's open to traffic, but it's, it's marked and there's a couple of stops for water and stuff like that. And then Grand Fondo, it's, it started in Europe where the idea was you can ride like a big race course and they'll get like 10,000 people to do like the Perry Roubaix Grand Fondo. And, and it's sort of a huge thing and some guys are racing it and there's prizes. In the U S, it's harder to like get legal, get the roads changed or closed, stuff like that. But, uh, so it sort of just became a, a mass participation,

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  fun bike day. And, and I kind of noticed like the guys who have successful Fondos are kind of former dopers and like the, the big one is, is Levi's Grand Fondo. That's like the giant event and I, 8,000 people or more even. And, uh, like, and Levi was just in that generation. And I think like, it's whatever, not even getting into that whole mess, but it's sort of, it was sort of like, nobody had a Fondo that wasn't a doper.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  And, and I just wanted to, to show like the roads in L A was another thing is there's, I've been living here for two years and it's, it's the best bike riding in the world, honestly. Like it's a 10-way tie with the best bike riding in the world. But there's nothing better than Malibu. And, and all my teammates are kind of like, yeah, I've been to L A. I was in traffic on the 405. How do you train there? So I wanted to sort of give LA the reputation that it deserves and at least try and restore some of that.

• 1:15:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's cool. We were talking about that before the podcast. Like I was saying, like, how come more, how come there aren't more pro cyclists that live out here? Like, the training is epic.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:52Rich Roll?

  The weather's great. And there's a few, and you see some of these teams that come out in the winter. Like, I know I'm out riding and suddenly, you know, like a peloton of thirty guys just breezes by me like I'm standing still, you know?

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:16:06Rich Roll?

  In a blur. So I see them out there. But it's amazing that there are these pockets of, you know, in the United States at least, in like Boulder or San Diego where people seem to congregate, and yet it hasn't really connected. The dots haven't really been connected with this area, and yet it's so amazing here.

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's totally true. It's somehow doesn't have the reputation it deserves for all that. For, I think it's just endurance sports in general. Like, in LA, you can go, like, you can live in the city and you can hike into Griffith Park and get eaten by coyotes if you want. Like, there's that much nature there. There's like, it's like a nice place to kind of live and do whatever else.

• 1:16:47Rich Roll?

  I mean, but where we are right now, like, out here, you know, it's like, most people who visit LA don't come out here. They don't even know that it's here. So it's still a little bit of a secret, I suppose.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  Now, there's the PCH. Like, everybody knows you can ride along that. There's a nice big shoulder the whole way on PCH. And then there's Mulholland Highway is like the famous highway at the top of the ridge. Like, every, if you see a car commercial, you can just like, count to three and Mulholland's gonna be in there.

• 1:17:11Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  And that's, like, obviously, that's a great road.

• 1:17:14Rich Roll?

  That Hidden Hills area where...

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  Griffith Park has a spot. Like, every car commercial, you can see, like, yep, I've been, I know that spot, Rock Store, whatever.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  And so it's, it's definitely there. And then in between those two, like, from the bottom of the ridge at PCH to the top on Mulholland, it's just like, all these little canyons that, like, Latigo that we mentioned, that nobody, nobody knows Latigo. There's just nobody drives on Latigo unless you're crazy enough to live there. And, and it's just this beautiful climb that you can see the ocean, and then you get to the top and you can see snowy mountains. Like, where are you doing that?

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  So the Fondo's kind of idea to like... You know, I'm the LA pro, like I'm the one here and let's, let's see what we can do.

• 1:17:55Rich Roll?

  So what are the climbs in your Fondo?

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  Well, there's three different routes, but it goes up the Petrero from the backside, those like Westlake Boulevard area from Zabriskie's neighborhood up in there. And then I won't tell his address on the thing. And then um, he'll have one creepy fan knocking on his thing.

• 1:18:12Rich Roll?

  We could call him and ask him if it's alright.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  You call. The uh, but so it goes, it kind of goes from, from there and then depending on which one, it goes down to PCH and then depending on which length, either you go up, um, you go up either Yerba Buena or Ensignal or, or whatever and just does little U's. So there's no left turns crossing traffic. It's all super safe. And, and yeah, and, and my, my Fondo is like cookie themed, like cookies became my thing.

• 1:18:41Rich Roll?

  What's the, what's the cookie thing all about?

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  That's a great question, man. I get that so often. I don't know how it happened. I, at some point, like I was writing for Bicycling Magazine, I think, and I mentioned like that I like cookies, which doesn't set me apart from anybody. And, but the next race I went to, like someone had brought me a cookie. Like they're like, oh, I saw you were coming to this and I saw you like cookies. So I brought one. And then I like tweeted a picture of it. And then from there, like it slowly snowballed into, by the time I get better and I'm like sort of well-known and I'm on big teams, like our bus would show up at the race and there's like 10 people waiting outside with plates that they baked or bought from their thing. And just for me, all my teammates are like, like Phil, you know, we like cookies too. I'm like, I know. I don't know why this happens.

• 1:19:23Rich Roll?

  Now it's like the whole thing. It's like Ted King and the maple syrup.

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  Exactly. Like they, I think the thing, like it's easy if you can just be put in a box and, but, but I, it was one of like the weirdest, but most amazing things in my life is that strangers, like I still get them in the mail sometimes. It was like, you gotta try my wife's thing. And I'm like, sure, here's my address. I don't know who you are, but I trust you and no one's poisoned me.

• 1:19:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Do you get like, like pot cookies in the mail or something like that?

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  You'd think I would have, but, but I haven't. Like people are just cool. Like everybody, they just want you to have their cookies. And it's been, it's, it's, it's been like so strange and amazing. But, so when I kind of was, was bouncing around the idea of this Fondo, a friend of mine runs M Street Kitchen or he's, he's owns a bunch of restaurants, Jeff Mahon. I don't know if you've been down there. But they've, you gotta go. They've got this amazing cookie. So it's like this guy who, who rides bikes. He's like a good bike rider. And, and he's like, he makes this amazing cookie. So we're a match. And and he's like, oh, if you have a Fondo, like, I'll make the cookies for it. I was like, you know, it's gonna be like 4,000 cookies. He's like, yeah, yeah, that's fine. I was like, now I have to put on a Fondo.

• 1:20:26Rich Roll?

  So the cookies came before the Fondo?

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  Basically, like I was, I was thinking about it.

• 1:20:29Rich Roll?

  So what am I gonna do with 4,000 cookies?

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then if, if everything falls into place like that, you kind of just have to like obey the world when, when it goes there. So, so this year, like Jeff has a charity that he works with called Chef Cycle and like a bunch of celebrity chefs that ride bikes. I think somehow like cooking and bikes go together, like the brain that, that does that. So there's a handful of them. Yeah, exactly.

• 1:20:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's a friend.

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  So he's, he's part of that and um, he like, he does the ride with them and a super good dude, but like.

• 1:20:57Rich Roll?

  I've had him on the podcast.

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  Oh, cool. Yeah. Um, so yeah, we're gonna have, so at the Fondo, like since we're involving them, um, I'm not sure if Seamus is gonna come, but like, Duff Goldman, like Ace of Cakes is gonna make some cupcakes and like both Brian Voltaggio and Michael Voltaggio, like winner, it's like there's mistletoe and stars at like a post-ride picnic, basically.

• 1:21:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  It's gonna be awesome.

• 1:21:18Rich Roll?

  That's cool. That's what, you know, that's the grand, what the Grand Fondo experience is supposed to be all about, right? It's great food and like, you're kind of celebrating cycling. It's not a race by any stretch of the imagination.

• 1:21:28Speaker 01

  That's like, some people want to make it into a race and they will and, and have fun with that. And I'm gonna be just like enjoying myself. It came, the Fondo happened at a time that like, I, I didn't plan to retire last year. Like that wasn't really my goal. And, and I sort of found out I was retiring like the week before the Fondo. And it was perfect because it, it gave me, like, I was planning this thing that was gonna be a nice bike ride for, you know, for as many people as could come. And, and then like, as I transitioned out of like, what am I gonna do? Like, what place does cycling have in my life? I, I had this, this day that was the best day I ever had on a bike of just like, I'm riding around with a thousand of my friends

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  and we're stopping for cookies. And like, this can just be the next chapter of like, cycling is still great. I can still love it. Like, it's okay to still love it. And, and, and that's, that's the next chapter. And then, you know, all the people finish the ride and they're like, hey, this was a great day. Thank you so much. It was, it was like surprisingly transformative and

• 1:22:26Rich Roll?

  How many people did you have?

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  We had 900 last year and now we, we just opened registration last year. We had a ton signing. We're going to sell out this year. It's going to be awesome.

• 1:22:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So it's October 15th, right? Is that what it is?

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  Thank you. It's, we're doing like an optional ride. You have to come.

• 1:22:40Rich Roll?

  I definitely will come.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  Optional ride the day before and then like food and I'll have a book coming out and we're just gonna, it's gonna be like a nice little party experience for the whole weekend. Lots of pro, my pro friends will all show up. This is how I make them visit me now.

• 1:22:52Rich Roll?

  So phil's grandfondo.com is that the?

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  Phil's Fondo, yeah.

• 1:22:56Rich Roll?

  Phil's Fondo.com. All right. I'll put that in the show notes too.

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  Appreciate it.

• 1:22:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's cool. That's, that's awesome. I mean, for Levi, that's become like, that's his whole thing, right?

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  He's probably going to be, I mean, his legacy is that.

• 1:23:07Rich Roll?

  It becomes a big business at some point, right?

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it does. And I think like he's, he's done a ton for charity. Like that part's nice. Um, there, we didn't make a profit last year. That'd be cool if we did that. Um, but like my sponsors are happy. So it kind of works there. But yeah, I think at some point, like, like people watch bike races. They enjoy it and like Levi had this entertainment value, but the, this event that he created, like everybody has a great day, thousands of, you know, times a thousand a year, and that's more of a legacy and that ends up like feeling more significant than I won a thing. At least if you're me and you can't really win the big thing.

• 1:23:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because on some level it's, it's giving back to the sport, you know what I mean? And there's nothing that, that feels better than being able to like contribute, you know, to the thing that like gave you a life and brought you so much joy.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  Right. And, and even if it like spit you up and, and tore you out as a sort of, I felt at that point, it's kind of like, oh, it, it gave me this. Like I, I never stopped smiling and laughing that day.

• 1:24:08Rich Roll?

  That's cool. So how many do you expect to have this year? How many can you, how many can you handle?

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  I think we'll, we'll figure that out. I think, I think we're going to cap it at 1500 and I'm going to be pissed. Um, cause it probably will sell out and, but we'll see.

• 1:24:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  It's, it's, you know, it comes down to like parking and logistics and how many cookies I can make and force Jeff Mayan to make.

• 1:24:27Rich Roll?

  And you have a, you have a book that just came out, right?

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:32Rich Roll?

  Ask a Pro, so tell me about this.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  This was, this was another thing, like a bonus of, of last year when like, I'll never figure out how my career kind of fizzled my, my second year in, in Europe where I just wasn't getting sent to the races that I thought I belonged at. And every time like I thought I had a good race, I'd just be on the bench for the next one. And, and it was sort of like, it, it was getting to be my time, but I, I didn't, I wasn't ready then, but I ended up with like a lot of free time sitting around in Girona in like this beautiful apartment where, you know, it's cheap to live over there. I'm right next to the cathedral and this like old stone building. It was amazing. And I'm like, I'm gonna do something, you know? So I'd, I'd go train and then I, so I, one thing, one of the writing things I did was this

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  Ask a Pro magazine column for Vellin. It was just like a humor column that I did once a month for seven years. Um, this is mostly just like me making fun of readers.

• 1:25:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's more like comedy than anything else.

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the first book I wrote was this, this story that was kind of emotional and, and the follow your dreams kind of thing. And then the Ask a Pro is, is they just put together these, basically it's this funny little book. It's a, it's a cute hardcover. It's, uh, but like I'm, I'm proud of it. It's, it's, it's entertaining. It's, it's a nice, it's like a quick little fun read. Um, and then the other thing I, I kind of wrote like a big boy book that will be, that Penguin's gonna come out with in the fall.

• 1:25:53Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow. That's cool. What's that called?

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that's called Draft Animals. Um, "Living the Pro Cycling Dream Once in a While" is in parentheses. So that's sort of the theme of like, you're living the dream and it's, and it's not what you thought it was, but you kind of cut out these little pockets where it's, it's, and I'm sure this happens to NBA players too, where a lot of times it's work and, or you know, you're, you're a rock musician and you're on the stage, but you're also like carrying guitar through the airport.

• 1:26:17Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  And you have to pick out the pockets and, and sort of like, even if you get what you've always wanted, it's, you have to actually make it be what you've wanted. Um, so that's kind of the theme of, of what it's really like and, and kind of how to make peace with that. Um, to this generation of mine that I feel like was told like, oh, you go after your dreams and everything's gonna work out. Um, and then comparing that to the people I know who, who didn't even get as far as I did, who just got eaten by it.

• 1:26:43Rich Roll?

  That's exciting, man. Three books.

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:46Rich Roll?

  In a pretty short period of time. That's pretty prolific, man.

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  I tried. Yeah. It's again, a lot of free time being a pro cyclist. A lot of, uh, a lot of evenings in Girona.

• 1:26:56Rich Roll?

  That's exciting. So is that, is that book though, the first book that you're doing with like a major publisher?

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, and, and I think the last, I think that no more books are going to happen to me when I'm working at Wasserman.

• 1:27:08Rich Roll?

  When do you start there?

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  I'm not sure exactly soon. I'm, I'm like launching the Fondo and I've got my, my YouTube stuff. There's a couple of clients that I'm like, try to bring in and when that's sorted out is when I'll, I'll jump in there.

• 1:27:21Rich Roll?

  How are you gonna, how are you gonna keep up the training when you, when you're gonna be like a little bit of a desk jockey all of a sudden?

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  Well, I, I won't, and that'll be the thing. That'll be part of the curve of the story is like, you'll see me like just get a little bit softer.

• 1:27:34Rich Roll?

  The skin suit with the cookies on it isn't fitting as well as it was. Too many cookies.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I'll have to be like smarter with my training and that'll be part of the story of like, I'm not doing stage races. I don't need to train 30 hours a week anymore. I can, I think I could get away with 12. What's funny is like, since I stopped trying to train for, for a pro cycling, I, like now I'm just training for like hill climb missions and no one's ever done that like at this level. And all of my power, like if you look at, if you send it to the geeks, like I've gotten better. And I should go back to the pros, but like, it's not, that's not, doesn't paint the full picture.

• 1:28:07Rich Roll?

  But like, you have to be able to sustain like insane watts for like, you know, 45 minutes.

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  Right. That's what I've been doing. And like all of my watts have gone up since I was a pro, but like, if you ask me to climb two mountains hard in the same day as you would in the stage race, I'm screwed. I'm in big trouble.

• 1:28:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Cause you're not putting in the eight hour, seven hour rides and all that kind of stuff.

• 1:28:26Speaker 01

  Exactly. But by, by like the metrics, it's, I've gotten better. So we'll see if I can keep that going, you know, under, under Casey and, and Matt at Wasserman.

• 1:28:35Rich Roll?

  And is Strava, like what is Strava's relationship to like what you're doing?

• 1:28:39Speaker 01

  Um, I don't know. They, uh, I'm, I'm going to be doing like a featured kind of, campaign with them, but, but they're not, they're not sponsoring it at all. There it I'm I'm guess I'm I'm using Strava as a vehicle the same way anybody would use Instagram or something else.

• 1:28:56Rich Roll?

  So Strava is rolling out this sort of mini blogging platform.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:29:00Rich Roll?

  Right. Like, are you part of your part?

• 1:29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll be one of those. You one of those?

• 1:29:03Rich Roll?

  I'm one of those.

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  Look at that. One of the us.

• 1:29:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I just know. I've been talking to them. I think I have a call with them this week.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, like the video thing.

• 1:29:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly. So I'm excited about that. It's cool.

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's sound it'll be fun.

• 1:29:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So like I like I said, I was off. I had to get off it for a long time. And then this year, like, I just started training for I haven't raced in like five years, but I'm going to do this crazy race in September. And so I was like, I'm gonna get back on it and just be transparent wherever I'm at. This is what I'm doing and just not like the challenge for me is to not get caught up in it.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  Interesting. Yeah.

• 1:29:34Rich Roll?

  And like not let it occupy like what I'm trying to accomplish and just let the chips fall as they may or whatever.

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 1:29:41Rich Roll?

  And and that's cool because then I'm just like, it's whatever it is, whatever it is. People want to say I'm slow or what, you know, like, I don't care. And it's actually been really fun, you know, because there is a there is such a beautiful community, you know, there of people that, you know, are interested in the things that we're interested in. So I've been enjoying it.

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, of all the communities on on social and on the internet, like, the the comment section is always like an ugly place. But I find Strava to be like shockingly encouraging.

• 1:30:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:08Speaker 01

  Very low on the trolls. Like, people are cool. And like when I when I did so my my last day as a professional cyclist, because contractually it goes through the end of the calendar year, was December 31 last year, and I climbed Monte Eta that day. So I was like, I'm gonna end it like this. And I like climbed. It's the biggest it's from you dip your bike in the ocean. And then you just race up this volcano to 14,000 something.

• 1:30:32Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  And there's like a dirt road. It's like the craziest ride you could do.

• 1:30:36Rich Roll?

  Super crazy.

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I like I went for that. And

• 1:30:39Rich Roll?

  Parts of it are like barely rideable, right?

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  Oh, I was running. I like was off my bike, like carrying my bike up a thing like. And yeah, it ended up being this like amazingly epic. Deep day for me. Um, and I did it with, with Kevin Seystrom, the, the CEO of Instagram, who like, it was, it was cool.

• 1:30:57Rich Roll?

  Oh, you were, you were like, oh, yeah. Yeah. I followed, cause he was, he was sharing that on Instagram.

• 1:31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:31:02Rich Roll?

  I'm like crazy and I was following that. I didn't realize that you were there. Wow.

• 1:31:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, I was there. So like, I did it and then I like,

• 1:31:06Rich Roll?

  That was like the best day of his life.

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  It was the best day of mine too. It's like, it's so cool. Cause like, we, we did the same thing and we had the same experience and we're like so different people. But it was, it was like such a beautiful day and like, I didn't even really know him, but now like, there's this bond that will never, like, like we're, like we're best friends now and you can't take that. It's funny.

• 1:31:27Rich Roll?

  He's a super cycling geek.

• 1:31:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's so cool. Yeah. Um, but he's, he's like in it for all the right reasons and like that I, that I hope to move into cycling the same way where at some point like Strava is just, it's an expression. It's like, it's a painting of, here's, here's the route that I chose. Here's how I know the roads. Here's my neighborhood and here's like, but it's also like with my legs and, and my, and my lungs, like how I'm expressing myself today. Um, so hope at some point, like I can't get KOMs anymore and, and I think I'll just transition into that.

• 1:31:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So you've never coached anybody? You're not like coaching's not your thing?

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  I, I was like, you have to if you're a low level pro cyclist. I coached at University of Florida when I was there. I coached the team for a year, but, but I, I stopped as soon as I could. I wasn't cut out for that. I'm not patient enough.

• 1:32:14Rich Roll?

  So we, we gotta wrap this up, but I, I always try to like end it with some, you know, imparting like some words of, of wisdom or encouragement to people out there that are listening that could kind of glean some, you know, insight from you. So what is it like? What do you think the biggest mistakes that the average sort of, you know, not weekend warrior, but like, you know, guy who wants to be guy or woman who wants to be competitive on a bike, like they're training for a triathlon or maybe a local crit or, you know, or whatever. What are the mistakes that you see? Like when you're out riding and you just see people out riding, you're like, why is that person doing that? If they only knew, you know what I mean? Cause I just know from like, when I'm riding around here and you know, tons

• 1:32:57Rich Roll?

  of people are wearing Garmin kits, but then every once in a while, like way off in the distance, you could barely make out that, that that guy's wearing a Garmin kit and I can tell from, you know, Half a mile out, I was like, oh, that that guy actually rides for garment. Like, I can just, I can tell the difference, you know, between the guy who's wearing it on the weekend and the real, the real deal.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Sure. I mean, I think like, and then there's a million ways to answer that. The, the, the advice that I would give the kind of the, the fringe person, the people that are doing it for fun, but have goals is like, think about what kind of ride, what kind of workout got you started. Think about like, what made you fall into it in the first place, like what? Cause everyone's a cyclist before they're an athlete. Everyone just starts to ride bikes for fun. So for me, that was like, I just liked going out and exploring and like, riding a bike, you see the world at this pace that like, when you're driving, you miss it, you know? You don't smell it. You don't, you know, you're not, you don't see what's going on. When you're running, like you can see it, but you don't cover a lot of ground. But when you're riding, you can really soak up a lot in a day. You can really feel what's going on.

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  And, and you can stop for, you know, pick up an apple or something. And so that was what I got out of it. And I found like, if you're training and you're staring at your power meter and you're doing your workout and your coach and all this stuff, like at some point it, it can start to feel like work if you're not careful. And so once in a while, like carve out, like think about what, what got you into it and carve that out for yourself and, and force yourself. So my coach would give me, um, this thing, Soul Rides, he called it. So like, just today, go out and do what you feel like. Just go for a ride.

• 1:34:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:32Speaker 01

  And like.

• 1:34:32Rich Roll?

  Don't, uh, just leave the, leave the power meter at home.

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  It's gonna, it, it, it reinvigorates everything and, and at some point like that, that definitely like extended my training and, and it made life a lot easier. And at some point that's all I'm gonna do.

• 1:34:46Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think just, you know, finding a community, you know, of people that enjoy doing it. I mean, we're lucky out here. There's such a culture of it. And you had mentioned earlier, like just hanging out at Peddler's Fork, which is a restaurant nearby that is, you know, it's, it's relatively new, but it's been, it's kind of become like the hub of cycling culture in this area where everyone can kind of congregate.

• 1:35:07Speaker 01

  Right. They made this like, this like beautiful restaurant in like Calabasas, like the most expensive neighborhood. And they just like made this Bike Dork Mecca with a little bike shop in the back and nice coffee. And, and that's, yeah, that's like the destination of the canyons. At some point, like you go for your, your four hour ride and you time it. So you're at Peddler's Fork somewhere in the middle. Um, and it's, yeah, and you just, it's a great community. It's, and, but LA is, is full of them. There's, there's just so many great people here.

• 1:35:33Rich Roll?

  Good talking to you, man.

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's been fun.

• 1:35:35Rich Roll?

  We did it.

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:35:36Rich Roll?

  You all right?

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  No, I'm so, I'm all sweating.

• 1:35:39Rich Roll?

  Is there anything we didn't talk about?

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  Uh, no, man, it's fun.

• 1:35:42Rich Roll?

  It was good, right?

• 1:35:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:35:44Rich Roll?

  All right, cool. So, uh, if you're digging on Phil, you can find him at PhilTheThrill.net.

• 1:35:49Speaker 01

  There it is.

• 1:35:50Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:35:51Rich Roll?

  And, uh, pick up the book, Pro, uh,

• 1:35:54Speaker 01

  Ask Pro and then Draft Animals.

• 1:35:57Rich Roll?

  Well, Draft Animals is coming, that's in the fall.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  October, yeah. Apparently, I just saw you could preorder that on Amazon.

• 1:36:02Rich Roll?

  Preorder that.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  The cover isn't even made.

• 1:36:03Rich Roll?

  Preorder that now.

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  We're still arguing about the cover.

• 1:36:05Rich Roll?

  And where's the YouTube channel?

• 1:36:07Speaker 01

  Uh, it's, I forget. Go to PhilTheThrill.net and it's, there's a link on there. Worst Retirement Ever.

• 1:36:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  Is the name of it. So it's, uh, it's in there.

• 1:36:15Rich Roll?

  Cool. And follow you on Strava and Instagram and Twitter and all those good places.

• 1:36:19Speaker 01

  Or don't.

• 1:36:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I like, no, you're like, you're, you're fun on Twitter, like, cause you're, you know, like, you don't, the thing is, like, you don't, you don't take any of this too seriously. Like, you make it fun. You know, like, you're approachable and, and, uh, and, and you have like this sort of sarcastic comedic flair that like runs through.

• 1:36:36Speaker 01

  I appreciate it.

• 1:36:36Rich Roll?

  How you talk about cycling.

• 1:36:37Speaker 01

  I think a lot of people like that, it's not to be taken seriously. And I think like, more athletes could be served by just trying like a little bit harder as far as like the whole sport. And when you tweet, you know, if, if, if somebody, if your sunglass sponsor says, hey, can you give me a tweet? Don't be like, I like my sunglasses. Like, try and say something funny, you know? Like, every, like, there's, there's so many personalities and like, it's, it's, it's easy to do. Um, and I, and I think like, yeah, it's, it's more fun that way too.

• 1:37:04Rich Roll?

  Cool. And if you want to geek out and go on a deep dive into cycling culture, you have your podcast.

• 1:37:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:12Rich Roll?

  The Peloton Brief.

• 1:37:13Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:37:14Rich Roll?

  Peloton Brief Podcast.

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's on, there's a link on my site there too.

• 1:37:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cool. All right, man. Awesome. Let's do it again soon.

• 1:37:20Speaker 01

  All right, sounds good. Thanks.

• 1:37:21Rich Roll?

  Cool. I'd love to get on a bike with you sometime.

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's do that.

• 1:37:24Rich Roll?

  You can deal with like a really slow.

• 1:37:24Speaker 01

  We could totally be friends. We're neighbors almost.

• 1:37:26Rich Roll?

  Slow guy.

• 1:37:27Speaker 01

  That's, that's me. No, look, I don't, I don't like riding hard anymore. I don't have to.

• 1:37:30Rich Roll?

  All right, cool. Awesome, man. Peace.

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  Good luck.

• 1:37:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah buddy, we did it. Great conversation. Do you guys like that? I hope you liked it. I gotta tell you, I got a little bit of a brain fog right now. I came back from Sweden and that crazy Otilo experience, that ultra endurance experience, and threw myself right into another ultra, which is essentially trying to rewrite, create this second edition of Finding Ultra, which is due on September 21st. So, since I've been back from Sweden, all I've been doing is locking myself in a room and writing, giving it the focus that I gave my preparation for Otilo, and I'm starting to go crazy. I've been waking up in the middle of the night, I've been writing around the clock, and I really think I need some fresh air.

• 1:38:27Rich Roll?

  So, sorry if I'm rambling right now. I'm doing the best I can. In any event, if you're into Phil, into his message, you want to check out more from him, PhilTheThrill.net, that's the website, PhilTheThrill.net, @PhilGaiman across all the social media platforms. Again, check out Phil's Fondo at PhilsFondo.com. That's October 15th, coming here in Malibu, PhilsFondo.com to get more information, and sign up and all that good stuff. Don't forget to preorder his new book, Draft Animals: Living the Pro Cycling Dream Once in a While, and also his podcast, The Peloton Brief Podcast: Real Talent with Phil Gaiman. If you would like to support this show and my work, to share it with your friends

• 1:39:08Rich Roll?

  and on social media, leave a review on iTunes, hit that subscribe button, and we have a Patreon set up for people that would like to contribute financially, and it warms my heart, everybody that has taken that extra step, I really appreciate it. Every once in a while, I used to say every week, every Thursday, I send out Roll Call, which is my weekly free email with five or six tools, tips, resources, articles I've come across, things that inspire me, things that I think are interesting that I want to share. But I have been very spotty in recent weeks in sending this out. Look man, I'm trying to write a book. I only got so many hours in the day. I can't do everything. So I apologize for not being totally locked in on my schedule with this, but...

• 1:39:51Rich Roll?

  I do send this out essentially every week, most weeks, I would say. So if it sounds like something you'd be interested in, I love doing it. It's not a, you know, there's no affiliate links in this or anything like that. It's just good information, stuff that either I shared on Facebook and nobody noticed, or stuff that I'm not sharing on social media and this is the only place to get it. So you can check that out by entering your email address and any of those email capture windows on my website, ritual.com. And when you're there, we also have signed copies of all our books, Finding Ultra, The Plant Power Way, This Cheese Is Nuts. We have t-shirts, we have techies, and all kinds of other cool schwag and merch. Schwag or swag? Somebody told me it's swag. I've

• 1:40:31Rich Roll?

  been saying schwag, but I think it's swag. Also, if you are feeling particularly generous, it would mean so much to me if you contributed to the spring, which is Charity Water's subscription service that allows you to contribute a certain dollar amount every month to help people access clean water. You guys have been amazing in responding to this call. Ever since I put up my podcast with Scott Harrison, it's had a profound impact on not just the audience, but on people that are now going to be enjoying fresh water for the first time. Over 250 of you have signed up for the spring. We've raised enough money to

• 1:41:13Rich Roll?

  build, I think, five wells at this point, and I want to keep going. I got an email just the other day from a representative at Charity Water who said that they just can't believe that you guys are still signing up. When Scott does media, generally, there's like a, there's a bang, you know, there's a spark, and a bunch of people will sign up or donate, and then it kind of trails off. And what they're seeing over at Charity Water is that you guys keep contributing. You keep signing up. There's more and more people joining the spring every week, and they're telling me that's unheard of. Like, this is one of the most successful media appearances that Scott has made because of the response that you guys have made. And so I thank you, all of these people that

• 1:41:53Rich Roll?

  are now going to be enjoying water. I'm sure they thank you. And I would like to continue the momentum here. What would it be like if we could build 10 wells instead of five? So if you got an extra five bucks, if you got an extra 10 bucks a month, 20 bucks, whatever you can afford, I want you guys to check out The Spring and consider donating. And it will make you feel great and it will significantly contribute to the betterment of humanity. And what's better than that, right? To learn more and to sign up, go to The Spring by typing in this very specific URL, C W T R dot org forward slash Rich Roll Spring. C W T R dot org forward slash Rich Roll Spring.

• 1:42:36Rich Roll?

  That link is up in my show notes as well, so you don't have to write it down if you're driving a car or you're on a treadmill or something like that. But I implore you to please explore this opportunity for yourself and for others. I also want to conclude this podcast by thanking everybody who helped put it on, helped produce it. Jason Camiolo, as always, for his amazing work on the audio engineering and production of the show, as well as his help compiling the show notes, creating the show notes, creating the website page. Shawn Patterson for your help on graphics and theme music by Analemma. Thanks for the love, you guys. I appreciate it. I gotta get this book done. I can turn it in on Thursday and then I'm going to be back to my normal self, or at least that's what I'm telling myself. Anyway, I'll see you

• 1:43:20Rich Roll?

  back here soon. Appreciate you. Have a great week. Make it count. Peace. Plants. Namaste.