Re-Air: Jodie Sweetin: My ADHD is a Superpower

In honor of ADHD Awareness Month, we are revisiting our conversation with Jodie Sweetin! Jodie Sweetin (Full House & Fuller House) discusses her work as “Stephanie Tanner” on Full House, living with ADHD and how she thinks it has helped her, and the importance of showing up as the parent you needed to have yourself. She explains how therapy and sobriety allow her to be a better parent and the importance of honesty in a parent-child relationship. Mayim and Jodie consider the need for prison reform after Jodie opens up about being adopted as a baby after she was born within the prison system. They discuss coping mechanisms in nature vs nurture and share their earliest childhood memories. Jodie reveals the top 5 things that keep her centered and ways she redirects feelings of wanting to run away into efforts of self-care. Check out our full episode with Jodie Sweetin: https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/watch-podcast/jodie-sweetin Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.

• 0:04Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 0:05Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to our breakdown today in honor of ADHD Awareness Month. We're going to revisit one of our very popular episodes from 2023 with a very, very popular actress, Jodie Sweetin. You may know her as her most legendary role was Stephanie Tanner on Full House and also the spinoff Fuller House. She's also a producer, she's a host, she's an author, she's an activist.

• 0:33Jonathan Cohen?

  We speak to Jodie not only about living with ADHD and how she thinks it has actually helped her, but what being diagnosed later in life meant for her and how it has informed her parenting style, really interesting.

• 0:46Mayim Bialik?

  Back when we talked to Jodie, I would say, obviously, ADHD was part of the conversation people were having, but since we recorded this episode, it's become even more talked about and understood, especially diagnoses later in life. So that's why we're airing it now in honor of ADHD Awareness Month.

• 1:05Jonathan Cohen?

  Spoiler alert, Mayim and I actually took an ADHD quiz after speaking with Jodie. It wasn't the next day, but we explored it and we had some fascinating results. I think there's an episode about ADHD and highly sensitive people out there on the internet.

• 1:23Mayim Bialik?

  There's some overlap that we talked about. Here's the other spoiler alert. Jonathan thinks that I have more ADHD than he does, which I think is hilarious. Jonathan has a lot more of the externalizing features of ADHD. I have a lot more of the internalizing features, as it were.

• 1:39Jonathan Cohen?

  You should watch what happens when Mayim and I try to sit down and complete a task together. Neither of us.

• 1:46Mayim Bialik?

  That's not true.

• 1:47Jonathan Cohen?

  We focus in very different ways.

• 1:48Mayim Bialik?

  Correct, we focus in different ways and we get things done.

• 1:51Jonathan Cohen?

  A friendly reminder to check out Substack, where we release exclusive content that you can't get anywhere else. There's an amazing community there of breakers talking about the episodes. We can't wait for you to check it out as well.

• 2:04Mayim Bialik?

  We hope you enjoy taking a look back at our episode or maybe hearing it for the first time with Jodie Sweetin.

• 2:12Mayim Bialik?

  Jody, welcome to the Breakdown.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Why didn't you?

• 2:15Mayim Bialik?

  It's very exciting to sit with you because first of all, you look amazing.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Why, thank you.

• 2:22Mayim Bialik?

  And you look like you're still a teenager.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  I appreciate that.

• 2:25Mayim Bialik?

  Which is how I, you know, I still sort of, I mean, I know you get this a lot and you still.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  I was on TV.

• 2:32Mayim Bialik?

  I know, but you look amazing. So, so that. And we recently had Candace Cameron Eberay on and people just love this era. People love Full House. Like, so it's actually, it's really fun to have you on here. And I don't want to say that I've been wanting to speak to you even before I wanted to speak to her. But, you know, I've followed so much of your life and your journey and was just very excited to get to talk to you.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:57Mayim Bialik?

  Also, as I mentioned to Candace, my first audition ever was to play DJ in Full House.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  Really?

• 3:05Mayim Bialik?

  Yes. And I know you're like doing the math.

• 3:07Speaker 02

  That's amazing.

• 3:07Mayim Bialik?

  So I'm 47. I started acting when I was 11 and that was the first audition I went on.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 3:15Mayim Bialik?

  You had been acting long before 11, but I had just started acting at 11. What are some of the common notes that casting directors will give feedback to an agent about?

• 3:23Speaker 02

  Either, it's usually either one of two things. Either they're overly theatrical and they need to tone it down and they're like playing it like to the back of the theater.

• 3:33Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, or?

• 3:34Speaker 02

  Or, or they go in and just don't, they're just kind of really shy and quiet.

• 3:41Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, so I already am more different than you thought?

• 3:44Speaker 02

  Okay, okay. Well, I just feel like that's oftentimes.

• 3:47Mayim Bialik?

  Yep, 100%.

• 3:48Speaker 02

  Like, kids are like, "I love this." And then you send them into an audition and they're like, "Ugh."

• 3:51Mayim Bialik?

  No, no, no. I, um, just rushing, just speaking way too fast.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Oh, God. Oh, I, "Story of my life, I get it today."

• 3:58Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  Still, that's, yeah, no.

• 3:59Mayim Bialik?

  So that was the note. Also.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  I don't, I'm gonna, I'm even gonna venture to say something. I know for me, my brain works 5,000 miles an hour and I have a feeling yours might as well.

• 4:12Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  And I feel like sometimes that's why we talk really fast. Cause I'm like, if I don't talk fast and get all of this out quickly, I'm gonna distract myself.

• 4:22Mayim Bialik?

  Well, it's, it's, it's part of.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  I'm gonna lose interest.

• 4:24Mayim Bialik?

  It's part of my delicate psychiatric profile, which I think is very charming.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Girl, it is, I have, it is part of my charm now. At nearly 41, it, it's, I've incorporated it to be charming.

• 4:35Mayim Bialik?

  But.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  It's nice to be invited to someone else's Breakdown, by the way.

• 4:38Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, yes.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  And not my own.

• 4:39Mayim Bialik?

  Always. Welcome to our breakdown.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 4:42Mayim Bialik?

  Where you get to share things that are not currently breaking down for you. While we just share our current breakdowns. No, but the other thing I was gonna say is that, you know, a funny thing happened.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  On the way to the forum?

• 4:54Mayim Bialik?

  Pretty much. A funny thing happened, you know, when I started acting in 1986. I looked pretty much then like I do now. Meaning like I had prominent features, you know, I had like a, whatever, this is my face. And, you know, I remember when I told my parents I wanted-

• 5:09Speaker 02

  I love your face.

• 5:10Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  It's an awesome face.

• 5:12Mayim Bialik?

  I'm growing to love it.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  Really? I love, see, I love, I love unique faces. I like faces with like-

• 5:18Mayim Bialik?

  It is unique.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, no, but I mean like faces that-

• 5:21Mayim Bialik?

  Character. I've got character.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 5:23Mayim Bialik?

  Well, in 1986, though, you can imagine that when I said to my parents, "I wanna be an actress", like, they looked at the television and looked at me and looked, and they must have been like, "What does she think she's gonna do?" Because this, like, ethnic features were not popular in the 80s. And I had blonde hair and blue eyes. I could have been your sister, but from another mister.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  No, no, I don't think so. I think actually from the mister that we were supposed to have all been from may have, like, I'm just saying.

• 5:52Mayim Bialik?

  I look more like the late beloved Bob Saget than any of you.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  And I don't mean this, but-

• 5:59Mayim Bialik?

  He was from my tribe.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:01Mayim Bialik?

  In any event, you know, obviously, that show and the cast that was put together, you know, became such an iconic part, you know, of-

• 6:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:10Mayim Bialik?

  So many lives and also the lives of the actual humans, like you, who were, who were living it and, you know, and also just with the resurgence, you know, and with Fuller House, which actually I think films right next to Call Me Cat. Um, I also work at Warner Brothers.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 6:25Mayim Bialik?

  Um, so it's just been, what a fascinating, you know, kind of book ending of your life. I mean, you were a little one.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  I was.

• 6:35Mayim Bialik?

  When you started.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  I was, uh, four years old when I started working in the business, started doing commercials and things like that. And I was like four, a little over four and a half when I did my first television appearance on Valerie. Which was, uh, the Valerie Harper Show.

• 6:50Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  And then, uh, and then I got cast from doing that onto Full House at like barely five.

• 6:58Mayim Bialik?

  What do you remember of being that, like, do you, cause I barely remember things like I was in, I did square dancing in kindergarten when I was four. So like, I remember some things, but like, how much do you remember kind of of that period of your life?

• 7:13Speaker 02

  I think oftentimes what we remember, we have flashes of what we remember and we also have lots of flashes of what our photographs tell us. And luckily, that was a pretty well documented period of my life. So I have like these really great reference points to be like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that. Or like, these pictures either that, you know, were behind the scenes that my mom took or whatever, behind the scenes, you know, video and John Stamos took tons and tons of video. So we've got all this video of growing up. Like, I actually am fortunate because I, I not only remember it fairly well, but I have all of these reference points to, like, trigger those memories. So it was, I mean, I don't remember much of my life before being on Full House.

• 7:58Mayim Bialik?

  Which most of us, you know, likely don't. I mean, it's like the beginnings of-

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Right, prior to five years old. I mean, most of us are like, I don't know.

• 8:04Mayim Bialik?

  So I imagine that, you know, you spent those kind of formative elementary school years and really into your junior high years.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, all through middle school. It wasn't until I started high school that I was going to school full time.

• 8:16Mayim Bialik?

  Wow. So what, gosh, what was education like for you? Cause like, again, I started working regularly, you know, when I was 14, which is like a very different phase of life. Like, you have different tutors for subjects and it's like you're in Algebra II and like, there's a lot to like, hold on to.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:31Mayim Bialik?

  But, you know, you had to kind of like, learn all the basic stuff that happens in elementary school, like in a very different environment.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Yes and no. I, you know, it's, I was really fortunate. So the first season of Full House, I was five years old. I had just started kindergarten. Now, I was in kindergarten for about three days and, and got moved out and tested out of kindergarten.

• 8:52Mayim Bialik?

  You're like, "Peace out."

• 8:54Speaker 02

  "Peace out. See you later." They were gonna move me to second, but moved me to first grade. So they moved me into first grade and I...

• 9:01Mayim Bialik?

  So you were precocious. I mean, that's...

• 9:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I don't say that, it's like, that sounds like I'm bragging.

• 9:06Mayim Bialik?

  No, no, but something...

• 9:07Speaker 02

  I skipped kindergarten, the finger painting, you know what I mean, the big stuff.

• 9:10Mayim Bialik?

  No, but something about you, because like, whatever, my brother skipped second grade, like, but there was something about you at that age where they were like, not...

• 9:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was reading by the time I was... Before I was four, I could pick up most any book and read it. I, you know, was out of... I was, yes, precocious is a good way to put it. So, I started first grade and I was doing Full House. And that first season, I think like the first season and a half, it was the usual sitcom work schedule. It was five days a week, work three weeks, off one week. So the weeks I was off, I would go to regular school and then I would be tutored on set, because we were kind of still, you know, figuring it out. By the time, I want to say, the second, second or third season rolled around, maybe even, yeah, about third season, I was able to go to school in the morning

• 10:01Speaker 02

  and then my mom would pick me up, because I lived in Orange County. Back in the days when you could make it from Orange County to LA in under an hour, you know? Oh, so very long ago. And my mom would pick me up from school at lunch. I'd work on my script in the car. I'd come to work and I'd rehearse and stuff in the afternoon. And then Thursdays and Fridays were like, block and shoot and audience tape days. And then those days I would be exclusively on set, because we had to go later, so I would have to start.

• 10:27Mayim Bialik?

  And that was just normal for you? Like, it was just like, I go to school and this is my after-school thing I do?

• 10:31Speaker 02

  I would do that. I got used to like, traveling on weekends and doing homework in the car or, you know, on set, or like, banking three hours, you know? So you could, the next day, you wouldn't have to do as much school or whatever. But I think honestly... For the way my brain works, having gotten diagnosed with ADHD later in life, I have found that looking at all of those ways that I grew up, I think were actually, it was like the perfect environment for someone like me, because I was constantly stimulated. Right. And doing something different and learning something new and balancing three or four different things and going in different directions. So, yeah, I think if anything, that was, it was like the best place for my brain to flourish.

• 11:14Jonathan Cohen?

  What made you initially be like, maybe I should explore this as a potential diagnosis or label?

• 11:21Speaker 02

  My girls were struggling with it. And I was reading more and more about girls and how ADHD affects them. It looks different than in boys. Very different. Tell us a little bit about what you learned. Um, it looks like talking a lot. It looks like not being able to shut up in class. And let me tell you, that was the number one thing I got in trouble for. Like, name on the board, every day. Teachers hated me, but they loved me, but they were like, she can't? I don't physically think she can stop talking. Wow. And I was like, I can't.

• 12:02Speaker 02

  I can't right now.

• 12:04Jonathan Cohen?

  It's good for podcast hosts.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know what? It's true. You're gonna be in town tomorrow and I'm gonna give you the what for about that comment.

• 12:14Jonathan Cohen?

  What, it's a positive? So, I just had a friend of mine, 65 years old, just recently talked and realized that she had ADHD. And now she's looking back at her entire life, wondering like, oh my gosh, so many things make sense.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Don't talk about me when I'm right in the room, Jonathan.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  You don't look a day over 60.

• 12:36Jonathan Cohen?

  And then also the flip side was, she was asking like, okay, now that I have that, like, how do I know what my superpowers are? Because it does come with extra abilities in certain areas. The one thing that drove me a little bit crazy about realizing that Ma'im has as much or more ADHD than I do, is that she used to get annoyed with me for like, you're not focused, you're doing too many things. But really, it was that she needs me to just be like this, totally still, because it distracts her.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Right, that's the, that's the problem. Put two ADHD people in a room together and watch 17 things not get done simultaneously.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  But no, I, you know.

• 13:17Jonathan Cohen?

  Or if you can channel it.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Well, that's the thing is my area, what I realized is, you know, people on set would, I mean, you would not know it. Even now, like I've moved into directing and I've done, I can keep 9,000 plates spinning in my head on set.

• 13:33Mayim Bialik?

  Right, that's a superpower.

• 13:34Speaker 02

  I know what hand I picked up what with, like I know where something was, like every single detail I can remember as an actor and or director. I get home, I can't find my keys. And what I realized is, is most people with ADHD have an area of hyper-focus. Mine is what I love to do, which is perform and be on set. And so the reason I never feel more at home than when I do on set is, one, because I literally grew up there from the age of four, and two, because it's the area where my brain is like, yes, I'm in, like I'm in the place where I thrive. So, um, I think, you know, it's interesting to go along and learn these things about yourself and kind of go back and piece things together.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  And you get to give yourself a little break and go, oh, I didn't know that then. So I felt like my, something was wrong with me because I didn't have it figured out until now.

• 14:29Jonathan Cohen?

  Mine, I've heard you describe something similar, the way you break down a script, the way you know where everyone is supposed to be in a scene, the way that like, and everything tracks and you're tracking every part and it's all making sense to you, like that level of diligence and focus definitely comes out. And I've seen you, you know, talk about directing and be in the same zone where you're just like, it just all is like clear to you?

• 14:50Mayim Bialik?

  Well, I mean, I think, look, I, I can't speak for you or for you, you know, for me, there's a, there's also a real safety in that level of vigilance about details because it means that the focus is anywhere but on me. Do I have to pee? Do I have to eat? It doesn't matter. Like, I'm just like, I'm dialed into, you know, everything else. So it really is, it's, I mean, in some ways, I think it's a, like, you know, it's compensating for something. It's like, it's a good defense.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Right. Look, you pull the thread of this sweater and it's complicated. The whole thing's gonna unravel. But it is, it's, it's part of so much of what makes us really good at what we do. And then in other areas, be like, oh my God, did I, I don't. Did I take my meds this morning?

• 15:33Mayim Bialik?

  No, I, um, I, for most of my adult life, I've had a bell on my keys and on my wallet because I lose them all the time. So at least I know to like jingle jangle every jacket because it's almost always like somewhere like that. My MB Alex Breakdown is supported by Quince. You know those pieces in your closet that you reach for over and over again? That sweater that somehow works with everything? The jeans you know will always fit just right? The bag you carry everywhere? Those are the pieces that earn a permanent place in your wardrobe and that's what Quince does so well. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, premium stretch denim. The designs are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again. And as the weather gets colder, Quince has everything

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• 17:02Mayim Bialik?

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• 17:19Jonathan Cohen?

  One of the biggest misunderstandings that we had was when you were writing your script.

• 17:27Jonathan Cohen?

  And rewriting your script, you were in like the later phases of the redrafts. And when she, like, we would talk about a note and then she would be like, got it. Okay, I'm gonna sit and rewrite this scene. And then, we weren't in the same room, we were hanging out over Zoom. And then I would go and start scrolling. And that scrolling would be distracting her. So she wanted me to just sit and watch her rewrite the scene.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  I'm a very quick writer, very quick writer.

• 17:55Jonathan Cohen?

  But like, that was agony for me, like, I'm like, I'm just supposed to-

• 17:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'd be dead, I'd be dead. Yeah, that would, yeah, that would be a lot. Also, I love how we have sidetracked this conversation into a full ADHD plot.

• 18:06Mayim Bialik?

  This is just an ADHD episode. When I think about also your, like, Full House life, and then your Fuller House life, and I didn't mean to say like, it's book ended, because you have a long life and career ahead of you. But, I know you've been asked so many things about so many aspects of Full House and Fuller House. So I'm trying to like, find different ways to like, talk about things that maybe you haven't, you know, maybe explored the same way. And one of the things I was thinking about is, what are sort of your reflections that like, kind of, you know, this very early moment of your career was essentially rebooted, you know? So many decades later. Like, what is that? Obviously, it speaks to the popularity of the show and the interest.

• 18:50Mayim Bialik?

  But, kind of personally, I would imagine it must be so interesting to like, you're playing, you know, you get to have a character grow up.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:58Mayim Bialik?

  So what is that like as an actor, like, to get to, you know, have a character grow up? And you don't see all those years in between, but you're what happened after this whole time has been off.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  Right, I mean, you know, I was always really excited to get to come and bring Stephanie sort of back to life. Stephanie was such a fun character to play as a kid. And, you know, it's so weird because I don't know, oftentimes I feel like I don't know, sort of, where Steph ends and I begin. Like, we have this very blurred self. I mean, I'm very clear that I am not Stephanie, but I-

• 19:36Mayim Bialik?

  No, but I get what you mean.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  But you know what I mean, like, I-

• 19:38Mayim Bialik?

  It's your voice, it's your face.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  As a kid, they, they really used so much of who I was to inform who Stephanie was.

• 19:46Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  And who Stephanie was was this kinda amplified version of who I was, so it, it, I liked her, I liked being her. And, and that made me, I think, like me, because it was, you know, these things and this person that I sort of was anyway. So getting to come back and play that person decades later and have Steph have, you know, I, like, I gave Steph some backstory, you know? Yes, it was a sitcom and it's whatever, but I was like, what happened to Steph in between? Like, you know, why was Steph kind of away from her family for a while? Like, what, you know, Steph kinda went and did her own thing and like, this is hard for her to come back to and, you know, this adjustment and all of this kinda stuff.

• 20:24Mayim Bialik?

  What's the craziest part of her backstory that you gave her in your head? Like, did she join the circus for a minute?

• 20:29Speaker 02

  I mean, Steph, Steph basically, it's in, in a way, she was, you know, DJing in Europe, like, she basically, I, I feel like Steph got it, like, moved to Europe probably for a dude or a relationship. And the guy, like, some, some, some idiot guy and like,

• 20:49Mayim Bialik?

  Did he give her ecstasy at a party and he told her water would taste good?

• 20:52Speaker 02

  Maybe, or something like that, or like, he, or, or he was just kind of a douchebag, like, music producer, you know what I mean? And then, and then she wound up staying there in Europe and being like, you know what? Screw this guy, like, I'm gonna do my thing. And she did that, and that's why she had been gone from family so long, but also, like, it was kind of a shitty relationship, so she was, she was really like, I didn't wanna be with anybody, she was wanting to do her own thing, and like, you know, her sister, obviously, with her happy family, was like, I, I just, it really hurt.

• 21:21Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 21:22Speaker 02

  You know, there was a lot going, there was a lot of layers. And probably none of that ever showed up.

• 21:25Mayim Bialik?

  I love it though.

• 21:26Speaker 02

  And if it did, it was probably in the episode where I argued with a clown, because God knows, that was some hard-hitting emotional topic.

• 21:32Mayim Bialik?

  I love that, I love that notion also that... You know, you each had to have, you know, kind of a journey.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:40Mayim Bialik?

  And I think, you know, another kind of interesting challenge, and you know, you were so young. So like, whereas like the DJ character, you know, she was like older and like doing like already like tweeny things.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:52Mayim Bialik?

  Teeny things. Like, it's different. And, you know, my mom is the middle of three girls.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 21:56Mayim Bialik?

  So whenever I see like a show with like, you know, three girls.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:00Mayim Bialik?

  Or whenever I like meet people who are like one of three girls, like I'm always like, tell me all the things. My mother was the middle child.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 22:06Mayim Bialik?

  And so there's like a huge dynamic also to your character that was like so the middle child. Meaning like in the most, I think, helpful and appropriate ways for a TV show to inform like about birth order and especially like with the dads and like all good.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:22Mayim Bialik?

  But then I also think about your identities also in real life, in that you were different people.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:29Mayim Bialik?

  Like you had, I mean, I don't mean to group Mary-Kate and Ashley because they were playing one person.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:36Mayim Bialik?

  You know, they were very little. But let's say we had these like three personas.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:39Mayim Bialik?

  And like, you know, Candace was like, she was Candace. And then like, they were like, the little ones. And then here you are, and you're really like, also in terms of like the public eye, like you are. You're like that middle child because it's like.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Look, let me.

• 22:52Mayim Bialik?

  So tell me, tell me what it was like to sort of like play the middle child, but also feeling even in your like celebrity presence, you were the middle child.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  I have a great middle child story from Full House that is literally, it is, it was unintentional, but is completely the epitome of middle child moment. So there's an episode in Full House where Jessie and Becky are moving out of the house.

• 23:16Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  And, you know, when Jessie moved into the house, he moved into Stephanie's old bedroom.

• 23:22Mayim Bialik?

  Correct.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  With the pink bunnies. Now, the pink bunnies were supposedly hand-cut by Pamela, Stephanie's mom, Jessie's sister, and placed on Stephanie's room when she was a baby. That was her room.

• 23:35Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  So those pink bunnies were Stephanie's room, okay?

• 23:40Speaker 02

  The episode where Jessie moves out.

• 23:42Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  I believe Michelle gives Jessie the pink bunny or vice versa. No, Michelle gives Jessie the pink bunny or vice versa, something happened. And I was like.

• 23:56Mayim Bialik?

  Wow.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  But those are not, it's not like in real life, like now looking back on it, I'm like, but that was like, it's just so funny. I was like, oh, what a tr- now I do, I actually know what it's like.

• 24:08Mayim Bialik?

  Like to be a middle child.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  Well, but it was cuter if Michelle did it.

• 24:12Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  You know, and the episode where um, where Steph moves into the bathroom. I died hysterically laughing because my younger daughter did that several years ago and like just went and camped out in the bathroom, like brought pillows, blankets, like just went and was like, I like it in here and I'm moving in and her sister was like, get out of the bathroom. So yeah, that was interesting. But um, but yeah, it was, it was, you know, there were definitely those times as an only child, I really was like, oh, so this is the in-between experience, you know, and, and um, it was fun to have that faux family, but not gonna lie, it was nice to be able to go home as an only child and be like, I just have to be me

• 24:57Speaker 02

  to worry about, you know?

• 24:59Mayim Bialik?

  It's interesting because, you know, we just, we lost Leslie Jordan recently, you know, from our show and it's, you know, very, very interesting to try and-

• 25:07Speaker 02

  He was in the first commercial I was in.

• 25:09Mayim Bialik?

  Wow. What was it for?

• 25:12Speaker 02

  It was a, oh my gosh, was it the Sizzler or the Oscar Mayer commercial?

• 25:19Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, these are two excellent choices.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Excellent choices. And I'm trying to remember whichever, but I, anyway, it was one of those and he played, I, I actually wasn't in it in my scene with him.

• 25:30Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  But forever, like almost my entire career, every time I would see Leslie Jordan, not the first thought was like, oh my God, there's this man who's had this amazing career, who is a genius and I love, but was like, oh, that was for my commercial. Like, you know what I mean? Like as like a little kid, that sense of like, you know, it's all about me sort of.

• 25:50Mayim Bialik?

  No, I get it.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  But yeah, I loved him. Oh.

• 25:53Mayim Bialik?

  No, he was, he was a really very special man. Um, thank you. But you know, the thing that's like hard to kind of articulate without sounding like a crazy Hollywood person, and I think you'll totally get it, is like- I wish there was a different word for the kind of family that's created on a set. Because it's not a family in the sense of like, it's not your family. Meaning, you don't share, family trauma. You don't share, you know, holidays, or you don't share like, people in common that like, oh, aunt, whatever, you know.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 26:22Mayim Bialik?

  You don't share a rhythm of a calendar where it's like, when are we going on, when am I gonna see my cousins?

• 26:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 26:27Mayim Bialik?

  It's not that kind of family. But it is, it feels as, you know, as connected. And not in like, a Hollywood way of like, oh my god, we all love each other. But like, we spent, you spent more time with the people at work than you did with your home family.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, honestly, I look at it like, we did, we would plan vacations together. We would go, our, our teachers would plan like, field trips for us because we'd always miss out on the field. So like, you know, my school field trips were with them. And we would go, and we'd go on location, and we'd go travel together. Or, you know, I grew up and I spent a lot of time with Bob's daughters. I would go spend a weekend at his house. And we'd all go to John's, and his sisters were always there, and his mom and dad. We all knew each other's families. Our families would get together for, you know, weddings, funerals, but celebrations, holidays, wrap parties. So, we did know each other's families. We did share, like, I mean, it was...

• 27:25Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  It was really, really deep.

• 27:28Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, and, and also, like, that's an extension of the fact that you start with this working relationship that's very intense, and you're with each other. And I know, you know, when I was acting and, you know, there are hours that you're allowed to work when you're little. But still, you're spending like, most of your waking hours. Like, these are often the first people you see in the morning.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:50Mayim Bialik?

  They're the people that you, you know, have breakfast with, you have lunch with, you sometimes have dinner, even, you know, and if it's a late night.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  They're the people that you work with when you don't feel well.

• 27:57Mayim Bialik?

  Totally.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  And when you're sick as a kid.

• 27:59Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Who have to take that in. Like, they are the people who, you know, are around you every day as a kid.

• 28:06Mayim Bialik?

  Totally.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Like, they are...

• 28:07Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and I think also for, for people like you and me, who like, literally spent like, formative years.

• 28:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:14Mayim Bialik?

  Those were the people that like, knew me. When I, you know, was a kid and then watched me like become a teen or a tween. Like they're part of your life and you know, it's almost like the way that I kind of think about it is like, if you have distant family that you see a couple of times a year or once a year. You know, they can be like, oh my God, you grew so much, but with your set family, no one really notices that stuff because you're together all the time. Meaning you're just all growing together. There's none of that like, you know, people would sometimes ask like Ted Wass, you know, who played my dad on Blossom, like, what was it like to watch the kids grow up? And he's like, it was like watching my own kids grow up. They were there all the time.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, what, right, like, or you with the best. The crazy part was, I remember when we would come back from hiatus. That was when I was like, oh, my God, like, you know, and it wasn't like hiatuses were really long. It was maybe two and a half months, six weeks, eight weeks. And, you know, kids, if you had kids on a show, man, they'd come back and they're, they're like, you know, we'd come back to the show and the kids had like totally, you know, their voices had changed. And they're, yeah, puberty had happened. We're like, oh, my God, now what? All the ideas for this, this show don't work. Jonathan, are you doing OK over there? Do you need anything?

• 29:20Jonathan Cohen?

  That's very sensitive of you, Jody. I appreciate that.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  I want to check in on you and make sure I know that Mime doesn't listen to you. So I just want to be your new favorite, really.

• 29:30Jonathan Cohen?

  Finally, I feel seen. I feel heard. I feel accepted.

• 29:34Mayim Bialik?

  Um, let's talk a little bit about your, let's talk a little bit about your kids, because I believe we all have a child born the same year. You have a child born in 2008.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  I have an 08 and a 10.

• 29:46Mayim Bialik?

  OK, so I have an 05 and an 8, and he has an 08. So we all share a 14 or 15 year old.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  The only time I ever hear that this like 08 is in reference to my kids' soccer teams. And they're like, oh, they're, they're an 08, like, because it goes by what year they're born. So, yes, so we're building a soccer team.

• 30:03Mayim Bialik?

  You have two girls.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  I do.

• 30:05Mayim Bialik?

  You have two girls.

• 30:07Speaker 02

  12 and 14.

• 30:07Mayim Bialik?

  You are just in it, is my guess.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  I am, 7th and 9th grade. And you know, I have to say.

• 30:15Mayim Bialik?

  Those were both horrible years for me. Just want you to know.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  I mean, they're, they're hard and horrible years for me and for most people too. But I will say, my 9th grader is in a much better position than she was, I think, in middle school. And, and my younger one is just kind of in the thick of it now. I feel like 7th grade, just as a rule. Is like really, really terrible. I remember very, very few redeeming things about my 7th grade year. Like, it was the first year of middle school. It was just constant bullying and harassment and like, everyone was terrible. We were terrible to each other. We were terrible to teachers. We were terrible to our parents. We're just terrible. And thank God we made it through.

• 31:01Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 31:01Speaker 02

  But I see it now and I would say I have apologized to my mom more in the last couple of years than I have ever in my entire life. I just call my mom, I'm like, "I'm so sorry, oh my God. I had no idea. You're right. This was, this is, you're right. You did know. I thought you didn't know. You knew. I know. They don't know that I know."

• 31:25Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  She's like, "Mm-hmm." It's fun, isn't it?

• 31:27Mayim Bialik?

  And you live in LA? I mean, the LA area-ish?

• 31:30Speaker 02

  I do, yeah, yup.

• 31:31Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, so you're raising them in LA, which also is its own. And people are like, "Well, if you don't like it, get out." And it's like, I thought they don't like it. It's just like, it's very different from raising children, I think, many other places.

• 31:40Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Look, city kids are, city kids are different than suburbia kids. And I say that having sort of had a foot in both.

• 31:49Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  I grew up in Orange County in like suburbia land, like very, very normal outside of LA childhood. Blue collar, working parent, you know, like that was my upbringing. But then also had this foot in like this really sort of weird, fun, over the top, like, you know, LA experience. So I do know that it is different. And I do know that my growing up in Orange County was a different experience than growing up in my kids here in LA. But by that same token, I know that so much of my experience growing up here in LA and growing up in this business and being exposed to so many different people really helped shape me into the person that I am today.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  And so in that regard, I do feel like my kids still have that experience of... Just the world is very big around them.

• 32:43Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  And sometimes that's a terrible thing and sometimes that's a great thing. And unfortunately, these days, I don't know that any of us are safe from some of the scary stuff that happens, whether you're in a city or a suburb.

• 32:53Mayim Bialik?

  Totally.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  You know, there's some of that that you just kind of go, I guess, you know, some of it has to, is just kind of the world that they live in now. But I love that my girls have had this experience and, you know, they have grown up in ways and around people and experiences, I think, that are gonna really serve to make them interesting people in their life.

• 33:17Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, for sure. The other thing I wanted to, you know, mention something Jonathan and I talk about a lot. You know, there's, being a parent is like its own like, what? It's its own journey. And mostly, I really feel like I wish someone had told me like, hey, guess what? Everything you didn't work out from your childhood.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 33:36Mayim Bialik?

  When you have kids, you're gonna have to go through it like to the nth degree with like a time limit and with someone shouting at you and throwing food at you.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 33:43Mayim Bialik?

  Like, everything comes up.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gonna be, you get to learn how you wish you would have been parented.

• 33:49Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  You get to learn how helpless your poor parents were. You know? And how overwhelmed they were, and yeah.

• 33:58Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and I, you know, I can't help but like think about the timeline. Your kids are about the age you were when Full House kind of was ending. Am I doing the math right?

• 34:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 34:09Mayim Bialik?

  And also, you know, a lot of the challenges that you've been incredibly brave in talking about and incredibly helpful, I think, to so many people in being open about, a lot of those things, you know, for you, did start to kind of like bubble and simmer when you were their age. And I wonder, do you feel like you have special like protective insight, you know, about those years for them? You know, or do you have fears about it? Because like, for me, and I think for Jonathan as well, it's like a combination of like when we get to like big milestones.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:40Mayim Bialik?

  Or things that were hard. It's like, part of me is like, oh, but I don't have to live it again. But then it's like, oh, but I kind of do.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Right. I mean, that's the terrifying part as a parent. I think that the realization that your Your heart now lives outside of your body and actually conducts its business completely separate from you and really doesn't ask you if it's okay, but is fully capable of breaking you without any of your input.

• 35:03Mayim Bialik?

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  And that's what parenting is, in a lot of ways. It is trusting your heart to be outside of your body and just hoping that nothing goes wrong. You know, I'd like to think that because of what I've been through, I have the ability to see it coming quicker, I have, my kids are gonna realize and know better, um, I, I'm gonna be more aware because I worked in treatment for years.

• 35:27Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  You know, um, and I have spent enough time in my own sobriety, in my own therapy, and in life to know that unfortunately, none of those things guarantee.

• 35:42Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  Anything. And that if people who got sober could see it coming any sooner than their kids, there would be never any, you know.

• 35:52Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  Generational families, you know, celebrating.

• 35:55Mayim Bialik?

  I always say that to people.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  Birthdays together at a 12-step meeting.

• 35:57Mayim Bialik?

  I always say that, I'm like, if we had figured out, forget about sobriety, like, if we had figured out parenting, we wouldn't have to fight about it, like.

• 36:04Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 36:05Mayim Bialik?

  The fact that any.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  There wouldn't be 9,000 books.

• 36:08Mayim Bialik?

  Right. Like, the fact that anyone, including myself, you know, the fact that anyone might feel at any point certain that they know what to do with anyone else's child, the only time you know what to do with someone else's child is when you don't have children, then you know everything.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  I know, God, I knew so much, I knew so much. And you know, I got my degree in elementary education, I was gonna be a teacher, and so I worked in classrooms and stuff when I had graduated college, and let me tell you, man, other people's kids, they love you. They listen to you. I mean, not all of them, but, but a majority of them, there's respect.

• 36:39Mayim Bialik?

  It's because kids don't want to listen to their parents.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  Right. Get those same kids at home with their own parents, and it, my kids, and I'm like, what?

• 36:47Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, I used to take my kids to my friend Nancy's house so he would eat a vegetable.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 36:52Mayim Bialik?

  If Nancy put it in a soup, it was like sent from God.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:56Mayim Bialik?

  I try and put it in the same soup.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  It's terrible, I don't like it.

• 36:58Mayim Bialik?

  This is shit.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 37:00Mayim Bialik?

  It's dog food, mama.

• 37:01Speaker 02

  Right, I don't like it, it's terrible. Right. It's always someone else, but the one thing I have. For better or worse, always said that I want to be with my kids is honest and open. And so, you know, while there are not, there are lots of details about my story and who I am that my kids don't know, there are lots that they do know. And, you know, my daughter actually told me the other day that she's like so grateful that she and I have such an open relationship and that she tells me everything, which probably means she doesn't tell me everything, but she tells, but that means she might tell me a good portion. And I tell her, I know you're not going to tell me everything. And I make sure that there are people in her life that she trusts, that I trust, that

• 37:42Speaker 02

  she can go to, you know, whether they're my parents, or my best girlfriends, or my husband, or whatever, so that she knows, like, look, sometimes mom doesn't have all the answers. And I will tell my kids that, like, I, look, I don't know, I'm doing my best. I realize that may not make you feel like super great, but I'm just trying to figure it out, too.

• 38:00Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah. Well, I think that's so helpful. It's one of the things, you know, that I think is a foundation of a really healthy dialogue, you know, for kids to know, like, I'm not, I'm not perfect, you know? And many of us were raised with this notion of like, father knows best, or mother knows best, and like, and in many cases, that, that does make you feel secure, because like, oh, they know.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 38:21Mayim Bialik?

  But then like, my-

• 38:22Speaker 02

  But then you feel betrayed, because you're like, they didn't know!

• 38:23Mayim Bialik?

  No, this is a good one. So, I grew up, well, my parents, uh, my parents are from the Bronx.

• 38:29Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 38:30Mayim Bialik?

  It's in New York, it's a place.

• 38:31Speaker 02

  Oh, I know the Bronx.

• 38:32Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, yeah. It's where the Yankees are from.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 38:35Mayim Bialik?

  So, I grew up with this, it wasn't even a belief, it was a truth-

• 38:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 38:40Mayim Bialik?

  -that stores were closed on Sundays, okay? Just all stores.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  That was, right, right, right.

• 38:44Mayim Bialik?

  Everything's closed, closed Sundays. Everything's closed on Sundays. So, my whole life was kind of geared around, like, we did things during the week, or like, on Saturday. I didn't grow up observing the Sabbath. We, we grew up, I grew up kosher, it's a long story. Anyway, everything's closed on Sundays. And I start, like, going out into the world, doing things, being a human, and, um, turns out, things are not closed on Sundays.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  They're not.

• 39:04Mayim Bialik?

  They're not. But, in the 1940s and 50s-

• 39:09Mayim Bialik?

  In New York, things were closed on Sundays.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 39:12Mayim Bialik?

  It was called Blue Laws.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 39:14Mayim Bialik?

  And there's still a district of New Jersey, where actually I filmed my movie, where things are closed on Sundays.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 39:20Mayim Bialik?

  However, that's only true in this like one region of New Jersey. That's not where my parents were from. They had never been to that part of New Jersey.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  But this technically wasn't a lie. It wasn't out of point, some truth.

• 39:32Mayim Bialik?

  But this, right, but that to me, like, that's even what's funnier is that like, there was no need for anyone to ever look into anything because things are closed on Sundays. So here I am, like, spending my whole life, uh-uh, on Sundays I'm bored. On Sundays I watch a lot of Twilight Zone. And it's not that they were keeping it from me. There's no maliciousness in this.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 39:51Mayim Bialik?

  But it was just like, that was my life, is that things are closed on Sundays.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  I wish someone, I wish someone could tell me now that things were closed on Sundays and I'd believe it and I just...

• 39:59Mayim Bialik?

  Tell your kids to stay home.

• 40:00Speaker 02

  I mean, to be honest, I don't leave my house much on these days anyway. Who am I kidding?

• 40:03Mayim Bialik?

  But that's a great example of like, we could, I mean, sure, there was no Google, but I'm sure we could have asked someone. Is this a rule in California?

• 40:12Speaker 02

  In California, right.

• 40:12Mayim Bialik?

  3,000 miles from where my parents were raised?

• 40:16Speaker 02

  What it is, what happens is that it becomes, and then you go, no, my parents said, and then you get into an argument at school.

• 40:23Mayim Bialik?

  And then you end up in therapy at 16.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  Look, who, you waited till you were 16? Oh, how lucky. No, I, look. I, first of all, I think everyone needs therapy. I, it's, it is, I...

• 40:36Mayim Bialik?

  You're right.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  I love my therapist.

• 40:38Mayim Bialik?

  Especially me.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Thank God for therapy. I, like, I love my therapist.

• 40:43Mayim Bialik?

  What do you love about therapy?

• 40:44Speaker 02

  You know what my therapist said to me recently? She said, and it sort of ties into being a parent yourself, is she said that parenting is learning how to reparent yourself. And it's learning how to be the parent that you needed to show up for you in good ways and, and, and bad, like, in all of the ways that, you know, maybe didn't happen. Uh, and that... There's nothing wrong with your parents. And it's okay that they did things wrong. Or different. Or different. Right, right, right. That it doesn't make you a bad person for then talking about it and being like, "That kinda fucked me up." You know what I mean?

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Like, because I think that there's so much, we have this weird parental thing tied into like, "Oh, I can't, I don't wanna like, think that I did, that they did a bad job, they didn't do a bad job," you know, and, but yet at the same time, like, I know, right, I'm, and I'm very open about it. I go, "Look, you guys," I say to my kids, "You are gonna need therapy." I know it, not because I'm a terrible parent, but because I am a parent.

• 41:49Mayim Bialik?

  A human, yeah.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  And that's why.

• 41:51Mayim Bialik?

  Do you think that our experience, because I have a very, like, that's a very similar script to what's in my head. And I wonder if, if there's something about also growing up in the industry where kind of like, everyone was my parent? Meaning, I was sort of in a situation where I was really constantly sort of like monitored and protected.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 42:10Mayim Bialik?

  And, and just like, more monitored and hopefully protected. I mean, I, I had a very, thank God, I had a very positive experience.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  As, as did I. And so like, I, people were like, "Did you hate it?" I was like, "No, I loved it." But I know not everyone had that, but I'm grateful I did.

• 42:23Mayim Bialik?

  I know your set, yeah, I think your set was known to be a very clean set, and ours was as well. Meaning, I, some people grew up watching, like, people were doing like drugs and drinking at work, and like, I didn't see any of that.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  No.

• 42:33Mayim Bialik?

  But even so, like, it was kind of always like someone was watching, you know?

• 42:38Speaker 02

  Right, there was a, there was a studio teacher there, there was a, somebody.

• 42:42Mayim Bialik?

  Or just like a P.A. or an A.D., like, someone was always like, "If I had to pee, it was like, okay, well, I'm, we're gonna like, wait outside your door, make sure like, you come right back out." And I'm wondering though, if that also like, it's like, we had this like uber parental, like, everybody was our parent. So there's this notion that like, if I speak badly, everyone's gonna hear. Like, it feels like the audience is bigger in my head, maybe?

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Well, I think also that was something that was, at least in my house, and not in a, and not in a bad way, like, that my, but, as a reality of growing up in this business, what my mom always reminded me of, and I- Can't imagine it these days, but what my mom would always remind me is, people are watching you.

• 43:18Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah. Oh, that's creepy. It's true.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  And I knew from a young age that I didn't have the luxury to go out and do stupid things. Or, well, I did. And I did. I had the luxury and I did them, but I...

• 43:36Mayim Bialik?

  But we didn't have the ease that other kids did.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  But I think, you know, I grew up with that being the voice in my head of,

• 43:46Speaker 02

  you just, you know, just be agreeable. And I heard someone say it too recently, that growing up in this business, you're often taught that being agreeable is the most important part of being on set.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  And I think most people have the opposite expectation of this business, that you're taught to be difficult as a child actor. As a child actor, you know, part of what your job is and what makes you a good child actor is that you're like, I will stand here.

• 44:12Mayim Bialik?

  Get it right. Just get it right.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Just do what's asked the first time and that's it. None of that, like, you know, it sounds sort of whatever. But like, that wasn't necessarily a bad thing growing up. Like, it was just sort of my experience. And it was like being in class. Go pee before you go to school, you know, whatever. But I always knew that my life wasn't private. And, you know, the first time I was in a tabloid was, I think, nine or 10 years old. And it was completely fabricated. It was saying that I was a problem on set and that Bob was trying to get me fired. And this was at a time when, like I said, I was very close with Bob's family and his daughters and was spending time with like his family on weekends and like, and so I remember...

• 44:58Mayim Bialik?

  Really untrue.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I remember it was Star Magazine, and I remember at like nine or 10 years old, having to come to terms with and understand the reality of sometimes you don't get to be heard. And that, you know, and that you just have to continue on regardless of what the external is, that you have to just kind of keep going through that. And I don't think a lot of nine-year or 10-year-olds have to learn that lesson.

• 45:29Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  But I look at that also as like that idea has served me well in a lot of ways too. But it definitely... I've had to dissect it as I get older. It's made me able to do my job without getting sucked into my feelings. But then when it comes time to like, to like, oh, what are my feelings? It's like, I don't know, those are, those are so locked away right now.

• 45:54Mayim Bialik?

  It's interesting, and I'm sure you get this a lot more than you should. Meaning, I don't think anyone should ask, really anyone this, but I'm sure we both have gotten asked this many, many times. I was asked it just today. I had a speaking engagement and, you know, someone was like, why do so many child actors turn to drugs and alcohol? And like, I really don't, I don't love that question because what I like to point out to people is, why do so many humans?

• 46:22Speaker 02

  That's always what I point out.

• 46:24Mayim Bialik?

  And I say like, you know, I went to public school in Los Angeles. I was part of the busing program. Like, plenty of kids were trying to fill that God-shaped hole with whatever they could. And for some people, it's food, and for some people, but, but I do wanna, I do wanna say, and like, it's not my business to speak for anyone. And also, you know, I've, I've known many actors who did not make it, you know? I've worked with many actors and socialized with many people who are no longer with us. So I always felt like when people ask me that, it's like, it's not for me to speak to their memory or to their families who are grieving for the rest of their lives, you know? For me to say like, well, my parents did this and that's why.

• 47:07Mayim Bialik?

  Or like, or even to be like, you know, and for me, my story happens to be like, I'm a second-generation American. My parents were very, very strict, but I have no idea really the intricacies of anyone's human experience. So I would always say, I would always say like, it's much more complicated than that. It's more of a mental health issue and like a crisis of a denial that mental health exists. But when you talk about what you just mentioned, that, for me, doesn't relate to drugs and alcohol. It relates to just our human experience when we've been through the kind of thing. And this is not specific to actors. This isn't like, ooh, Maya and Jodi talking, you know, about acting. This is just like, we're all under different kinds of pressure. There's pressure in the family, there's pressure outside.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  If you play sports, if you're, you know, whatever, if you're a dancer, I mean, yeah.

• 47:53Mayim Bialik?

  Right, so our experience is absolutely more magnified, more observed, but that pressure of...

• 48:02Mayim Bialik?

  It really is most convenient if you have the fewest needs possible. That happens to a lot of kids. It's just in the industry, it's our go-to.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:13Mayim Bialik?

  It's our go-to. Like, there's literally, we don't get sick days.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're like, are you dying? Like, maybe. Well,

• 48:22Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  Come in and we'll see if we can get a doctor to come in. Right, yeah, exactly. And I remember, like, I, I've had- But to this day, taking a sick day is for, like, I have to be-

• 48:32Mayim Bialik?

  Yep.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  Crawling. Near dead, crawling, and only with the pandemic did I finally go, "You know what? Take a sick day because A, it's not worth it, and B, like, no one wants your sick ass around. Go stay home." You know what I mean? But it was, that, that felt like-

• 48:48Mayim Bialik?

  It's how we're programmed.

• 48:49Speaker 02

  That was just a part of, like, you just, you don't, you don't get to take a sick day.

• 48:53Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and also, it reminds me of when we talked to people who grew up, you know, people who grew up in alcoholism or with active addiction in their homes. There's often not room to have needs, because it's like, it's always about, "Who, who else?" And that's really what it's like to be a kid on a set. Even if you're the star of the show, that's what it's like. Like, what do you need? What does he need? Okay, there's not room for me.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  It's also, um-

• 49:14Mayim Bialik?

  Did I just compare being on a sitcom to growing up in alcoholism?

• 49:17Speaker 02

  You did, you did.

• 49:19Mayim Bialik?

  But I just meant, like, having, having to take into account everybody else's needs because they're important.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  That's called codependency.

• 49:26Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 49:26Speaker 02

  No, uh, well-

• 49:28Mayim Bialik?

  The title of this episode.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  No, uh, yeah. Here's the thing, sort of tying all of it together. I too say the same thing about addiction and growing up in this business. You know, I grew up, again, went to a public school, had, lived in a great neighborhood with, you know, great schools and great education and parents all had jobs and all, you know, families living together and quote-unquote, you know, happy families, whatever you want to call it. And there were kids in my neighborhood that OD'd and died in their homes and that, you know, that went to jail and that went and had their own struggles with addiction and that wound up on the streets. But the other, you know, five or six kids in my neighborhood, you don't hear about them. But you hear about me because people grew up watching me. So, much like what you said, I don't know that it's necessarily,

• 50:13Speaker 02

  I, I, it's hard to gauge, right? It's hard to say- Does this affect child actors or people who have grown up in this business more? Or do we just know about it because every time it happens to one of those people, we hear? So it seems like it's more often. And then, you know, also, is it the personality type that's drawn to doing this?

• 50:38Mayim Bialik?

  Great question.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  The, you know, the personality type of a kid that makes it, that does well in this business is a kid that probably has a little touch of ADHD and maybe a little like neurodivergent.

• 50:50Mayim Bialik?

  A little narcissism.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  But maybe, maybe either a little narcissism or the opposite and extreme people pleasing.

• 50:57Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  And codependency and all of these things that as a kid.

• 51:02Mayim Bialik?

  Makes for a good actor.

• 51:03Speaker 02

  You don't necessarily, they're not, as a kid, they're not yet maladaptive practices. They're just who you are and, and then you grow up and you go, oh, I let those things, I never learned how to like unlearn some of those things. But I don't think that it's because I was on TV. I think that was who I was anyway, but that, you know what I mean? It's like this.

• 51:28Mayim Bialik?

  Fascinating.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  You can't pull them apart, I don't think. I think the person that I was, maybe interested in entertainment. I think entertainment at a young age shaped who I became. I think who I became was, you know, the path I was on anyway, but also, you know, largely shaped by a lot of weird things that happened growing up. So, you know, it's, it is, we're complicated personalities and child actors are, you know, we're a little different.

• 51:57Mayim Bialik?

  Well said, really. I honestly, I'll be honest, I've been talking about these things. I mean, I'm 47, so, you know, I've been acting, you know, I started Blossom when I was 14. You know, I don't know if I've had this level of analysis and camaraderie around this. You know, I'm always very nervous to say like, I'm always very nervous to like blame the industry on problems that we might have, but also like very, you know, very reluctant to also be like, "I made it out." Because also like, you don't, like, people don't know.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  The reason, honestly, the reason that this, we started talking about this, because I was talking about therapy. And only in the last, maybe, year or so have I really started going like, "Oh, wait, I get to pick this stuff apart and realize that life is that gray area, right? Nobody has a perfect childhood. Nobody has a perfect experience. And there are also great things that happen in terrible circumstances, right? And all of those shades of gray are true. And until I'm willing to look at the pluses and minuses and the gray areas of all of the things of my life,

• 53:09Speaker 02

  I don't think I can really adequately get down to the bottom of the shit that I need to. Until I can go, "Oh, that was kind of good, but that kind of was weird, but that was awesome." You know, like, that's life. It's all very complicated. And, you know, I think remembering that and pulling those things apart without feeling that guilt and the shame and feeling like, "I had a wonderful experience, I still struggled with addiction, I don't think it was entirely the business's fault, but there was a layer of it."

• 53:43Mayim Bialik?

  Do you share your sobriety date or your current sobriety? Or even roughly speaking, like?

• 53:48Speaker 02

  You know, I, I-

• 53:49Mayim Bialik?

  Like, are you a toddler?

• 53:51Speaker 02

  No, I'm not. I'm double digits.

• 53:53Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  I'm double digits and I, um-

• 53:55Mayim Bialik?

  Are you a teen? Not yet. No, you're not old enough to be a teen.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  No, no, not, not yet, no.

• 53:59Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, so you're, you're a kid. You're still, you're like, you're in elementary school and trying to get to junior high.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Right. And you know what? I will say, like, recovery looks a lot different these days than it did in the beginning. And I think, for me, my experience and my practice of, of sobriety, of, of 12-step principles and programs, and what that looks like for me, like, it's changed a little bit over the years, but it is still the through line that, like, I try- I am, you know, practice these principles in all my affairs. Because I learned to just be a much better human.

• 54:35Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 54:35Speaker 02

  And I find myself to be a better human today. Because I still look at what is my part in things? How do I, you know, can I keep my side of the street clean? If I, you know, fuck something up, can I go back?

• 54:47Mayim Bialik?

  That's a 10 step. It's a 10 step that we can do every night, you know? You know, when we talk about like. Our personalities when we're little and especially, you know, thinking of you starting so young and, um. You know, as someone who started late, I mean, I was considered late and people think that's ridiculous. Until I like talk to people like you, like literally like. It's what you know, like for me, I had like a normal. Right, I mean, it wasn't so normal, but yeah, I had like a, I had my version of normal.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  A normal, right, a normal messed up toddler.

• 55:13Mayim Bialik?

  You know, I, I do, I want to ask a little bit, when you talk about, you know, your mom and dad. So I didn't know this about you, so you were adopted.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 55:22Mayim Bialik?

  As a little tiny one.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  As a little tiny one, a little over a year old.

• 55:25Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, and you were raised by, is it your uncle?

• 55:28Speaker 02

  No, well, okay. So it's my, it's, it's complicated.

• 55:32Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 55:33Speaker 02

  It sometimes requires a diagram, but I'll do my best to, uh. So, and I talk about it in the book, um, and my. Adopted parents, my mom and dad, Sam and Janice.

• 55:43Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  Sam's ex-wife.

• 55:46Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 55:48Speaker 02

  His ex-wife is my biological dad's.

• 55:52Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  Aunt.

• 55:54Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, okay.

• 55:56Speaker 02

  So my adopted dad's ex-wife is my biological great aunt.

• 56:01Mayim Bialik?

  Got it.

• 56:02Speaker 02

  And my dad has three kids with her. So technically, they are my cousins by blood, my half siblings by adoption, right?

• 56:11Mayim Bialik?

  So basically.

• 56:11Speaker 02

  But they were all like adults, but my dad's much older.

• 56:14Mayim Bialik?

  So you were essentially adopted into extended family is kind of how it is.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly, and it was, yeah, it was, you know, there were connections there and it was, you know, I, I. And I was fortunate that I did not have to, uh, that I, and I had family that, you know, had brought me home from the hospital. Um, when I was an infant, not my, my adopted parents, but, uh, you know, other family and friends. That had taken me home. You know, I was lucky that I didn't wind up in the system. And that I did have people that stepped in.

• 56:43Mayim Bialik?

  Were you born in the system?

• 56:45Speaker 02

  I was. I was born in LA County Jail.

• 56:47Mayim Bialik?

  In LA County.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, technically, I was born at USC County Medical Center.

• 56:50Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, but as part of that, that's fascinating. I mean, I'm just being honest. I don't know that I've ever spoken to someone, you know, no, who was really part of the system like that.

• 57:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then my, yeah, my biological dad was actually in Soledad State Prison when I was young. Which was a reason that other family had to take me home as well. And that it was family on his side, but he was in prison and was actually stabbed and killed in a prison riot when I was about nine months old. So, you know, it's...

• 57:21Mayim Bialik?

  Did you know your bio mom?

• 57:23Speaker 02

  No, I did not. It wasn't ever anything that was kept for me, but it was something, and I think honestly, as, again, the healing that happened as I got older and became a mom. And suddenly had this different understanding of what being a parent is and what being a mom is and a human being and experiencing all of those things. The amount of forgiveness that I had for my biological mom was huge and really, like, life-changing.

• 57:58Mayim Bialik?

  You know, what we know about the prison system, which many of us have talked about for many, many years, or as I've been recently pointing out, the hippies we're talking about in the 60s and everyone was like, "You're crazy, you're on drugs." Well, guess what?

• 58:10Speaker 02

  Prison reforms has been around, probably, if you look at Victorian times, you know, human rule, all that, you're like, "It's so weird." It's like the same things happening for like, doing it.

• 58:19Mayim Bialik?

  But what we know, you know, about a huge percentage of people, you know, who struggle with mental health challenges or who are often products of abuse, you know, who end up in a system that then... Places an extraordinary amount of psychological pressure. And in many cases, I'm just gonna say it's torture.

• 58:41Speaker 02

  You take traumatized individuals, you put them in further traumatizing situations, and then you wonder why they traumatize people when they get out in environments that are conducive to trauma. And then people, and then you throw more money at traumatizing them on the back end instead of preventing it from happening in the first place.

• 58:58Mayim Bialik?

  But that's where we're at. But I do, no, I mean, I'm not dismissing it.

• 59:03Speaker 02

  No, no, it's something that I'm really passionate about too.

• 59:05Mayim Bialik?

  When I showed my kids The 13th, the Ava DuVernay documentary, and it was like, you know, first of all, it was shocking. I mean, I showed it in an age-appropriate fashion. But, you know, the notion of educating kids and saying like, this is not new. Like, this has been going on, and it's a continuing. But I'm just, I'm sort of interested because as we think about sort of how we end up, you know, the way we end up and like the path that we take. And obviously, it sounds like your parents did a really, a really one, I mean, I think you're amazing.

• 59:36Speaker 02

  Thank you. My parents, my mom and dad, they took on something and a situation and a kid that needed it.

• 59:43Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 59:43Speaker 02

  And my parents have been the most amazing mom and dad. I mean, they have stood by me, you know, when I've really, really, really, really pushed them to the limit.

• 59:54Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and I guess that was sort of my question because, you know, obviously, we're a product of so many things. But I do wonder, and I'm sure this is part of, you know, the work that you get to and that we all get to keep doing when we go to therapy. You know, do you, do you think about sort of, you know, what we come from in terms of, you know, there's, there's a lot that is nurture, there's a lot that is nature. You know, when people are like, oh, is this, and, you know, as a sciency person, people ask me, well, is this, you know, is this like, is this inherited? And I'm like, well, here's what's inherited, coping mechanisms, the way people talk, the way people act, and also you do get, you know, a genetic load.

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  But that's also shaped by, right.

• 1:00:32Mayim Bialik?

  Exactly. So do you, do you think about that?

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:00:35Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, I'm sure when you were, I'm sure when you were a teen and when you were kind of like starting to struggle, we don't always make those connections.

• 1:00:40Speaker 02

  Well, by the time I was 15, I knew that I, like, I Drank differently than other people. I knew I was already, I knew I had an issue with addiction. I just knew it made me feel different than other people and I've always been pretty self-aware.

• 1:00:51Mayim Bialik?

  You knew that you drank differently than other people. You knew that you came from kind of like a history of that. But also, that's not necessarily, and what people don't understand, it, this is not really, it's not a choice-making process that we undergo. It's a very, especially when your brain is still developing and, you know.

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 1:01:06Mayim Bialik?

  So, I was just kind of curious, I would imagine that at that young age, you may not have realized like, I think I'm repeating patterns. That might have been, you know.

• 1:01:13Speaker 02

  Well, and I look at it now, you know, and I see, I'm like, oh, you know, oh, some attachment issues. Um, some, you know, things that I, that I didn't realize I had until I was like, why is it that like, you know, my relationships are failures? Why is it that this is happening? What, you know? And, and I was, as an adoptee and as someone who is now much more vocal about that experience, I think one of the things that happens with adoptees is that we discount ourselves and think, well, all that happened before I remember.

• 1:01:49Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Like, that was like the first year of my life. Like, what the hell was it? You know what I mean? Like, all the rest of it was fine.

• 1:01:55Mayim Bialik?

  The Body Keeps Score.

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  The Body Keeps The Score, such a great book. And I read that book and, recommended to me by my wonderful, um, husband, who is a therapist and social worker. You know, I read that book and I was like, oh, oh, I get it. Like, so, again, those pieces falling in place.

• 1:02:12Mayim Bialik?

  Explain it to people who may not know, you know, what, what happens, let's say, for, in anyone, not yours, but like, in anyone's first year, like, what does, what happens?

• 1:02:21Speaker 02

  Well, basically, I mean, I am in no way a scientist, nor did I write this book. But, uh, according to my layman's brain and its understanding, you know, in the first year of life, you are forming all those important connective responses. You know, it's the reason that Reese's monkeys will cuddle a furry thing that doesn't give them food and starve to death over something that feeds them, but that is wired. They, they are hardwired to go for something that comforts them, even if it is actually detrimental to themselves. So I think, you know, in that first year of life, we are just looking to figure out how to survive, really, in the world. And so, so many of the basic things we learn about

• 1:03:04Speaker 02

  how to survive of crying to get attention, or, you know, that our needs will be met, that we are not alone, that we, you know, all those sorts of things. If there is a disruption in those, and sometimes there is for any period of time, the longer that happens, the less of those connections are made in the brain. And so then the brain starts figuring out how to find other ways to cope. And thank God, the brain is something that is malleable and, and will change and rewire itself. But, those things are still affected, right? So people like me, that maybe, you know, I, and I talk about this story, I was left alone for a certain amount of time as an infant, and I got pneumonia, and all sorts

• 1:03:47Speaker 02

  of things. Those are things I don't remember, but my body does. And so, you know, for me, living a lifelong battle with anxiety and depression and all of those things, you know, I had to really stop and look at, and reconsider the importance of those things, and not use them as an excuse, but allow them to enter... Information. Right, to enter my brain as part of the information of, oh, this is what's affecting me. And again, until I look at it, I can't do anything about it. So if I'm constantly going, well, that, that's stupid, there's no way that could be it. And how do I know unless I look at it? Right. You know? And so I've been looking at it, and I'm like, I think there's a thing.

• 1:04:30Jonathan Cohen?

  It's more than the first year. They're showing that it's prenatal, that the child is wired to the nervous system of the mother, and that the state of the mother, and the emotional state of the mother during the time of pregnancy is actually the first wiring.

• 1:04:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:46Mayim Bialik?

  Well, Jonathan, I also wondered, since you were the one who recommended Peter Levine's book to me, which is literally behind me, In An Unspoken Voice, over a decade ago.

• 1:04:54Speaker 02

  Oh, yes, that's also a book that's sitting on my office bookshelf.

• 1:04:59Mayim Bialik?

  Yes. Jonathan, I wonder if you could speak a little bit to kind of what Jody just alluded to, you know, like, I don't remember that, but my body does. Can you speak kind of from a somatic perspective about either your experience with that as a, you know, as a practitioner person, or just as a person who's done that kind of bodywork?

• 1:05:16Jonathan Cohen?

  You articulated it perfectly.

• 1:05:19Jonathan Cohen?

  There's a whole set of influences that most people are not aware of that are shaping how they experience the present. And most of us are like, if I don't remember it, it doesn't exist. But our precognition, our pre-memory, even in utero, we are discovering that our experiences, our connection to the, to a caregiver, our mother's voice, is the mother experiencing their, her own trauma while that then gets passed, those hormones get passed to the baby. And then everything, like even, you could take it even further, that it's not only about the pre-memory years. There's lots of stuff that happens to us now that we don't remember.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  I mean, absolutely. All kinds of trauma that doesn't, that I'm, you know, will happen and go, oh my God, you know, that's, it's not always a fun experience when that comes back.

• 1:06:13Mayim Bialik?

  I don't want to get too deep into this because I do want to finish like.

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  And were you finished Jonathan, by the way? I'm so sorry.

• 1:06:18Jonathan Cohen?

  It's okay. Keep going.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  Oh, see, I, I'm trying to get better at remembering.

• 1:06:22Mayim Bialik?

  I am never gonna hear the end of this.

• 1:06:24Speaker 02

  I'm sorry. Now he loves you.

• 1:06:25Mayim Bialik?

  A little bit.

• 1:06:26Speaker 02

  Now, hold on. I'm gonna go work this out in my therapy session.

• 1:06:28Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm just wondering.

• 1:06:29Mayim Bialik?

  I need to speak to your husband.

• 1:06:30Jonathan Cohen?

  We have a couple of episodes coming up. Would you like to just sit in and moderate for us?

• 1:06:36Mayim Bialik?

  She's our guest co-host to keep.

• 1:06:38Speaker 02

  The only reason is because I've been trying to get better at doing it myself.

• 1:06:43Mayim Bialik?

  She is a desirable co-host on many reputable talk shows because of she's good at this.

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:06:50Jonathan Cohen?

  She's, we've never had such a conscientious, attentive, aware.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  I am just living my best dependent life right now. Tell me more. No, I'm just kidding.

• 1:07:01Mayim Bialik?

  No, I was gonna say, I, I don't feel, I don't want to get like too deep because there's a couple more things I want to talk about that are specific to you. But when we talk about the things that we choose to remember and the things we choose to forget.

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:07:15Mayim Bialik?

  As a female person, I know that I definitely have accused, and yes, this is a gendered statement. I'm just saying it. I've accused more men than women in my life of not remembering things that I cannot believe they don't remember because they have real emotional significance to me. And I also know that there are things that like I don't remember that literally happened.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:07:40Mayim Bialik?

  So there's this notion also, and it may be gendered, it may not be, might have been an unnecessary broach of topic, but the notion also of like, memory's not so simple. It's not just like, I remember it because it happened and then the things that happened that I don't remember don't affect me. It's so much more complicated.

• 1:07:57Speaker 02

  Your memory is based on your perception. You see the world how you've experienced the world. So a scenario that looks to you one way is going to look a completely different way to another person, which is why witness testimony is a mess and what all this kind of stuff.

• 1:08:10Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 1:08:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:08:11Jonathan Cohen?

  What are each of your earliest memories?

• 1:08:13Mayim Bialik?

  I remember preschool.

• 1:08:14Speaker 02

  I, yeah, I remember like preschool things.

• 1:08:17Mayim Bialik?

  A couple of things.

• 1:08:18Speaker 02

  I remember, oh, I can, I mean, I can smell the grape, the juice that was served at my preschool. Like smells, I mean, are obviously always very important, but like, oh, I can smell it even when it's not there.

• 1:08:32Mayim Bialik?

  I have an early one, and it's not something that there's a photo of. That's, I always check, because it was a really good point you made. Like, sometimes we remember things because people told us about them, or there's pictures, or we're on television for a number of years.

• 1:08:44Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 1:08:44Mayim Bialik?

  No, I have a memory of playing with, what's that like, kind of goopy, it's not Play-Doh, but it's that goopy stuff that you play with in preschool that's made of like cornstarch and flour and water.

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  Oh, uh, GEC?

• 1:08:56Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:57Speaker 02

  GAC?

• 1:08:57Mayim Bialik?

  GAC.

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  GAC.

• 1:08:59Mayim Bialik?

  I love that Scott was like more certain than anything he's ever been certain of that that's GAC.

• 1:09:04Speaker 02

  Right, like basically slime.

• 1:09:05Mayim Bialik?

  It's like you touch it and it moves, but then you put it down. I remember playing with that. I don't really remember like anything else. And then I'm always like, did something terrible happen after that? Like, I don't know.

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:09:16Mayim Bialik?

  Just remember that. And I remember it was at a preschool, it was at a church. I didn't go to a church preschool, but we rented a space.

• 1:09:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:09:23Mayim Bialik?

  On Hollywood Boulevard, east of La Brea is where my mom said that that memory took place. So that's pretty early.

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember, I, just the other Day had a flash of a memory from preschool of, and again, it started with a smell of like it was a classroom. And I, I think I walked into one of my kids' classrooms recently for like for a whatever open house. And it was like the smell of old desks and old books and whatever. And I was like, oh my God, I know the smell.

• 1:09:51Mayim Bialik?

  Wow.

• 1:09:52Speaker 02

  And I instantly flashed to me at a play kitchen, like

• 1:09:55Mayim Bialik?

  Huh.

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  in the back of this preschool room, or maybe, yeah, whatever it was.

• 1:10:01Mayim Bialik?

  I want to know if you had to name, let's call it five things. What are five things you would say you do to kind of keep your center?

• 1:10:11Speaker 02

  Um, I meditate.

• 1:10:14Mayim Bialik?

  What kind of meditation?

• 1:10:15Speaker 02

  Uh, whatever is on my phone app.

• 1:10:18Mayim Bialik?

  Got it.

• 1:10:18Speaker 02

  And I do it.

• 1:10:19Mayim Bialik?

  Like guided meditations?

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  Guided meditations.

• 1:10:21Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, great.

• 1:10:21Speaker 02

  Or sometimes just music at night, theta waves, whatever.

• 1:10:24Mayim Bialik?

  Um, hold on one second. Theta waves or whatever.

• 1:10:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, what is that? They're, it, uh, theta waves are just really good to help calm anxiety.

• 1:10:33Mayim Bialik?

  Is it like white, white noise?

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  Similar, yeah. It's just, it, I don't know.

• 1:10:37Mayim Bialik?

  It's a neutral sound.

• 1:10:38Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:10:39Mayim Bialik?

  You could Google it.

• 1:10:39Speaker 02

  Sound, but I also like guided meditations.

• 1:10:41Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  I listen to, um,

• 1:10:43Mayim Bialik?

  Jonathan just pulled him up. He apparently has been listening the whole time.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  I, uh, I listen to, um, The Prophet by, reading by Khalil Gibran.

• 1:10:51Mayim Bialik?

  Whoa.

• 1:10:51Speaker 02

  As I fall asleep, or The Velveteen Rabbit a lot. Um,

• 1:10:55Mayim Bialik?

  Oh.

• 1:10:55Speaker 02

  I know, weird. Um,

• 1:10:56Mayim Bialik?

  No, lovely.

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  And then, um,

• 1:10:58Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, so meditate?

• 1:10:59Jonathan Cohen?

  Those were my favorite books as a kid.

• 1:11:01Mayim Bialik?

  I didn't know that.

• 1:11:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have, um, I have a, a quote on my wall hanging about The Velveteen Rabbit about, um, that become, about becoming real. And that you're, you know, once your, your eyes have been loved off and your hair worn out and all this.

• 1:11:15Mayim Bialik?

  Oh my.

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  One of my favorite quotes about how becoming real doesn't always look pretty on the outside, but it's the best on the inside, so.

• 1:11:22Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, so that's two things so far. Meditation.

• 1:11:25Speaker 02

  Meditation, reading.

• 1:11:26Mayim Bialik?

  Books, right, books that you listen to. Therapy, it feels like is a biggie.

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  Reading, therapy.

• 1:11:31Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, and what kind of therapy do you do?

• 1:11:33Speaker 02

  I just do talk therapy.

• 1:11:35Mayim Bialik?

  Like psychotherapy?

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  Just psychotherapy.

• 1:11:36Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, great.

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've tried EMDR, my brain, it gets too distracted, and it was also hard because it was during COVID, so it was like trying to do it online.

• 1:11:44Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 1:11:45Speaker 02

  But therapy, reading.

• 1:11:46Mayim Bialik?

  Do you, are you a medication person?

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  I am a medication person.

• 1:11:50Mayim Bialik?

  Would you consider that one of the things you do?

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  Oh my god, oh, no.

• 1:11:52Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, so meditation?

• 1:11:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would, I would put that probably in the top three. That has been life-changing for me.

• 1:11:58Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 1:11:59Speaker 02

  And I'm a huge advocate for getting medication if you need it, and letting go of that judgment. And then...

• 1:12:07Mayim Bialik?

  Maybe there's only four, whatever you want.

• 1:12:10Speaker 02

  And then I'm like, well, no, there's more, there's more than five, I'm like, well, no, my family and my dog. And my dog's a big one.

• 1:12:16Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 1:12:17Speaker 02

  I have a do, I mean, my dog is like, I love my dog, and she is big and fluffy.

• 1:12:23Mayim Bialik?

  What does she give you? Because what's the thing?

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  She gives me absolutely, she, she needs nothing from me, although she is a needy creature. She doesn't ask anything of me. I don't have to explain myself, I don't have to

• 1:12:42Speaker 02

  tell her what's going on in my head when it's going so fast I can't put it into words. I can just lay on top of the dog and pet her big fluffy neck, and that's it.

• 1:12:51Mayim Bialik?

  It's comfort.

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  Very much so. It's unconditional, unjudgmental comfort that is, in a way, sort of selfish, because it doesn't, it's all really self-serving, like I'm petting the dog.

• 1:13:03Mayim Bialik?

  But you have to, you have to like feed the dog and walk the dog.

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  Oh my god, no, the dog is, the dog is spoiled.

• 1:13:08Mayim Bialik?

  She needs a couple things.

• 1:13:08Speaker 02

  I mean, no, look, the dog.

• 1:13:10Mayim Bialik?

  What's her name?

• 1:13:11Speaker 02

  Her name is Isa.

• 1:13:12Mayim Bialik?

  Ooh, pretty.

• 1:13:13Speaker 02

  She is a, she's a shepherd, German shepherd husky chow-chow mix.

• 1:13:17Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:13:18Speaker 02

  So she's a big fluffy, yeah. If I really think about the things that I do 100% solely for myself, I would say those are the things, like, I just unapologetically like those five things.

• 1:13:30Mayim Bialik?

  I love that.

• 1:13:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:32Mayim Bialik?

  I have one more question before we let you go. I'm wondering if there have been times when you just kind of wanted to run away? Like, just like...

• 1:13:43Speaker 02

  10 a.m. today?

• 1:13:46Mayim Bialik?

  No, but like I'm thinking, especially to kind of like the harder times, you know, and like, you know, even when my kids were like little, you know, and it just felt like, it just, everything felt like really unmanageable and I, you know, I know you've had, you've had, as you mentioned, you've had relationships, you're currently in what we hope is a happy and beautiful and really healthy, lovely.

• 1:14:06Speaker 02

  Yes, we got married in July, it's amazing.

• 1:14:07Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, you're a newlywed.

• 1:14:08Speaker 02

  I am, he's amazing and I love him.

• 1:14:10Mayim Bialik?

  But, but you know, kind of like all of that stuff aside, like when things were harder, like, did you ever have that feeling of just like, I wish I could just like turn it all off and just like start a new anonymous life elsewhere?

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  I, no joke, probably feel that currently at least once a month.

• 1:14:29Mayim Bialik?

  What is it?

• 1:14:30Speaker 02

  And not because I am ungrateful for my life and not because I don't love what I do or my kids or any of that. But I, I oftentimes my anxiety, my anxiety and depression will get so bad that, and this is, I'm being very honest about this, my anxiety and depression will get so bad and it happens definitely at least once to twice a month that I just, I want a tiny home in the middle of nowhere.

• 1:15:08Speaker 02

  I want no electronics, I want to read books and take walks with my dog and do jigsaw puzzles and write in a journal and like watch whatever the hell I want to watch and like that's it and I don't, and listen to music and that's, I want no outside external noise because it's overwhelming sometimes. I think I feel that way more now than I probably did when I was young and things were uncomfortable. I think because now I'm asking myself to

• 1:15:44Speaker 02

  In response to feeling that way, what do I do?

• 1:15:47Mayim Bialik?

  I was gonna say, what takes that place?

• 1:15:49Speaker 02

  When you're young and you're like, oh, whatever, I just feel that, ah, you know, you're just kind of messy and all over the place.

• 1:15:53Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, just feel it, yeah.

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  Now, I'm like, I feel it and I go, oh, this requires me to reprioritize some things. Or, or maybe my boundaries aren't strong enough. Maybe I need to say no to some things, or maybe I need to put certain things down and do, you know, and, and, um,

• 1:16:14Speaker 02

  I'm, one of these days, I may just do it and run away to my tiny home. If I didn't do it during COVID, which was a really, really hard time for me. I had a real, uh, mental breakdown during COVID. Uh, lost 37 pounds, like, just really struggled. I don't do well under stress and worry. And, um, now, when I have those thoughts of running away, it makes me question how I can

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  listen to myself to hold better boundaries for myself and, um, do a little better self-care. You know?

• 1:16:53Mayim Bialik?

  And it's oftentimes, I guess, to revisit, you know, that, that list, um, you know, that we talked about. There's so many things I didn't get to, um, you, you have so many other credits and, I don't know, maybe you'd come back and play some more another time. Because also, like, you have so many fun things that you do and, you know, you've, you've branched into producing and just like so many, so many cool things, um, that I didn't really get to, to talk to you about. But I do wanna say that you do, you have a podcast, correct?

• 1:17:26Speaker 02

  I do, I have a podcast.

• 1:17:28Mayim Bialik?

  And I wanted to give that a special shout out.

• 1:17:29Speaker 02

  Yes, uh, never thought I'd say this, which is, uh...

• 1:17:32Mayim Bialik?

  You're in your fifth season?

• 1:17:33Speaker 02

  We finished our fifth season. We are coming back for a sixth that I think is gonna look a little bit different. Uh, and I'm also branching out into potentially another podcast.

• 1:17:42Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:17:43Speaker 02

  More of a comedy-related one.

• 1:17:45Mayim Bialik?

  Cause you also do comedy, which is like its own thing I'm terrified of doing, but, um...

• 1:17:50Speaker 02

  I do, yeah. I just did a show at the Comedy Store this weekend.

• 1:17:52Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, my gosh, that's...

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  It wasn't pure stand-up, it was me and three other stand-ups in like a panel show.

• 1:17:56Mayim Bialik?

  Sketches, that's amazing. Wow, that's really awesome. I'd love to also come see you.

• 1:18:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:18:01Mayim Bialik?

  Sometimes I leave this room.

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:03Mayim Bialik?

  But anyway.

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  Sometimes I do too, but usually.

• 1:18:06Mayim Bialik?

  No, but we're just, we're so grateful to have you on and we will tell everybody many more good things. Jonathan, anything else you want to say before we let this lady go?

• 1:18:14Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm just ready to post my velveteen rabbit quote on Instagram. I have it here.

• 1:18:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, will you read it? Will you read it? It's one of my favorites and I'd love for people to listen to it.

• 1:18:26Jonathan Cohen?

  Generally, by the time you are real, most of your hair has been loved off and your eyes dropped out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't really matter at all because once you are real, you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand the velveteen rabbit.

• 1:18:49Mayim Bialik?

  So after the velveteen rabbit made me cry.

• 1:18:52Jonathan Cohen?

  You're welcome.

• 1:18:53Mayim Bialik?

  I hugged Jody goodbye and we kind of did that off-camera because I wanted some time to kind of unpack with you. So really, really interesting conversation that we just had. I don't think I've ever really considered the way she kind of presented that pressure element. I'm always so quick to say like, "Don't look at child stars any different than other people" because it's true. Drug addiction, alcoholism, all those things happen to everybody. But the uniqueness of that kind of pressure was really interesting to me. I don't know if you resonated. You know, you also come from a family with a lot of pressure and you weren't in the public eye.

• 1:19:28Jonathan Cohen?

  No, but we've talked about the industry and how it breeds an intensity for not having needs. It was covered in the Raymond Simone episode and it was talked about a bit in the Will Wheaton episode, in the Jeanette McCurdy episode also. And there's this running theme of how that environment is a mirror to what we all grew up with or many of us grew up with where having no needs is the safest. Choice and then what do we give up? What parts of ourselves do we start to get disconnected from? You know, you call me out on this sometimes. You know, I grew up in the aftermath of my brother's accident and my sister before that

• 1:20:11Jonathan Cohen?

  was extremely sick and had undiagnosed fibromyalgia and had back surgery when she was 11 and had all these mysterious conditions. So as the kid who had, you know, quote unquote, nothing wrong with him, you didn't want to make a fuss, but then there was almost a joke in my family that like the kids took turns hurting themselves or being hurt. Like my brother broke his leg. Okay. So now the family is focused on him. And in the absence of being able to have, I don't mean to simplify it like this because it's much more complicated, but in the absence of sort of having space for emotions, well, if you're physically hurt, then you're able to get attention or you're able to have a need because then there's something actually wrong with you.

• 1:20:53Mayim Bialik?

  Well, not surprisingly, we just went from me asking how you felt about the episode and sort of my reflections on the industry. It went straight. No, no, no. But I think it's interesting when it went, it got even more specific. I was hoping that you would kind of pull something general out of it like, oh, all families have pressure. But I think that's really interesting that you used a very specific example in your case, because I think that's sort of, that's what I'm, I guess, alluding to. You know, there's all these other elements that we don't realize kind of make us, you know, who we are. And there's also this notion of like, is there enough attention to go around? And I think when you're working on a set, you know, that's one example of like, well,

• 1:21:36Mayim Bialik?

  there's clearly, there's a lot of attention, but not necessarily for the things that I need, right? So how can I be of service? How can I help other people? But then also, you know, for you as a kid, when there's all of that attention not going to you, of course, there's a tendency to not want to like make trouble, but there's still a deep need to be seen. And, you know, what you, you did a lot of covert operations, I think, you know, you did a lot of things privately. You had a lot of sort of things that you shoved away. You know, it's almost like, look, I hurt too, but no one can know. Does that, I mean, does that sound kind of right?

• 1:22:13Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, absolutely. That need doesn't go away, even if there isn't an outlet that it can be received. So then we start to find ways to express it in in other areas. And I think the extrapolation is that very few families, well, maybe that's an over an exaggeration, but I don't know that many families that had a rich dialogue where the child's internal world got to get explored and mirrored and seen and held and expressed. And, you know, there was a lot of space for processing and teaching emotional vocabulary and the fact that sometimes your body hurts and that can be stress induced. And like, that didn't happen where I grew up. I mean, I'm sure there are places where that did. And I know people

• 1:22:57Jonathan Cohen?

  who had maybe parents who had done that type of work. But our parents, you know, grew up in a different generation. They did the best they could. They tried and provided for us. And we also, as you begin to have a child and begin to parent, you learn, oh, wait a second, there are all these things that we either don't know how to do. And I say this often is like, you learn more about how you were raised by how you react to your child in pain.

• 1:23:24Mayim Bialik?

  It's true. So the choices are, how could you do this to me? Right? How could you do this? Or how can I help?

• 1:23:34Jonathan Cohen?

  What's wrong with you? Be quiet. Stop what you're doing. Or like, the level of like, internal angst that happens when the child is unconsolable?

• 1:23:45Mayim Bialik?

  Or blaming yourself, right? Like, how could I not control this? It's so, I mean, you're so powerless. I remember the first-

• 1:23:51Jonathan Cohen?

  Or what are other people gonna think, depending on where you are? Like, that whole range of thinking shows you so much about what was prioritized in your home when you freaked out.

• 1:24:00Mayim Bialik?

  I don't even know if if my ex husband and I, like, even knew what the word blame was until we had children. And then all of a sudden, it just became a contest of who can blame the other. But like, I would find ways to be like, you're breathing in the living room, woke him for the sixth time. It's like, that's not even true. But you find ways like, well, if you hadn't eaten beans at 4am yesterday, he wouldn't have, you know, poop now. Like, it was, it just becomes this gigantic blame game. And it's like, that tells me-

• 1:24:36Jonathan Cohen?

  Or if a child hurts themselves.

• 1:24:37Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, it's your fault.

• 1:24:38Jonathan Cohen?

  Or like, falls off a jungle gym.

• 1:24:42Mayim Bialik?

  Miles has a scar. He literally, to this day, he's 17. He has a scar across his nose because Mike literally like accidentally scratched it. Like he was like picking him up and it was just like, it was this day that like, whatever. You know, sometimes you forget to trim your nails if you're not a nail biter like me. He shouldn't have been a nail biter like me and then he wouldn't have scratched our child. And he literally has a scar to this day. It's Mike's fault.

• 1:25:06Jonathan Cohen?

  I have a question for you that's going to circle back to something you said previously. You talked about the amount of people watching you on set, not just like your performance, but like monitoring you and like, what are she doing? Oh, you have to go to the bathroom. Let me take you there. Let me, let me wait outside. Let me make sure you come back.

• 1:25:24Mayim Bialik?

  Do not ask what I think you're gonna ask. Do not go there.

• 1:25:28Jonathan Cohen?

  What do you think I'm gonna ask?

• 1:25:29Mayim Bialik?

  Stop it.

• 1:25:29Jonathan Cohen?

  What do you think I'm gonna ask?

• 1:25:30Mayim Bialik?

  Stop it.

• 1:25:31Jonathan Cohen?

  What do you think I'm gonna ask? What do you think?

• 1:25:33Mayim Bialik?

  Stop it. You're gonna ask if that's why I always want you around watching me do things? That's what you're gonna ask?

• 1:25:40Jonathan Cohen?

  I was gonna ask, no? I was gonna ask, what do you think it brings up for you in the absence of that?

• 1:25:48Mayim Bialik?

  That's asking why I want you around all the time watching me do things.

• 1:25:52Jonathan Cohen?

  That's why you wanted me to watch you type your script?

• 1:25:55Mayim Bialik?

  Shut up.

• 1:25:56Jonathan Cohen?

  Even though I wasn't helping anymore and you didn't want me searching the internet because you were like, oh, if he just like, you wanted that.

• 1:26:03Mayim Bialik?

  Jonathan, what's your favorite thing for me to do with you?

• 1:26:07Jonathan Cohen?

  I don't know what.

• 1:26:08Mayim Bialik?

  Go to the supermarket with you.

• 1:26:10Jonathan Cohen?

  That's just a good activity.

• 1:26:12Mayim Bialik?

  But I, we have the same disease. You spot it, you got it. That's what it's called. You spot it, you got it.

• 1:26:19Jonathan Cohen?

  All right.

• 1:26:19Mayim Bialik?

  And no, that's not why I wanted you to pay attention when I was writing. I wanted you to pay attention because we were in the middle of a writing session and I wanted to have at least a glimmer of hope that we might be able to finish something without you doing seven other things while also making a list of sporting activities you need to purchase supplies for, for next summer.

• 1:26:37Jonathan Cohen?

  From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, this has been a lot of fun.

• 1:26:41Mayim Bialik?

  We'll see you next time.