Part Two: Inside the Hidden World of Secret Societies: Dr. Richard Spence On How They Form & How They're Still Influencing Our Politics

What if secret societies have been controlling the world from the shadows since the dawn of civilization? In this explosive interview of Mayim Bialik's Breakdown, Dr. Richard B. Spence — Professor Emeritus of History at the University of Idaho, expert on espionage, secret societies, and occultism, and co-host of the hit podcast Strange As It Seems — pulls back the curtain on the hidden organizations that may have shaped history, politics, and even the founding of the United States itself. Dr. Spence breaks down the benefits of being in a secret society (and why you should care, even if you’d never join one), whether ancient secret orders have influenced the rise and fall of empires, how modern politics is subtly manipulated by groups we don’t even realize exist, and the psychological and mystical appeal that keeps these societies alive. He discusses whether secret societies help dangerous leaders rise to power, including shocking theories around Hitler’s rise, the true definition of "the occult", why many secret orders are accused of Satan worship or dark rituals, the most active and influential secret societies today, and how new ones are forming online in the digital age. Dr. Richard B. Spence also reveals: - Surprising parallels between ancient orders and modern Greek life (fraternities and sororities) - Origins and influence of the Freemasons: were the Founding Fathers truly Freemasons, and what ideals did they embed into this country’s DNA? - How secret societies evolve, and why some are actually designed as self-improvement programs - Why these organizations can become “petri dishes for nefarious actions”, sparking revolutions and even government overthrows - Why these groups have historically been male-dominated, and the surprising stories of female and even child secret societies - How intelligence agencies may manufacture conspiracy theories as tools of psychological warfare - Difference between misinformation vs. disinformation, and how each is weaponized - Are modern day government agencies like the CIA really just secret societies with better branding? - Fine line between secret societies, cults, and religions, and how they manipulate loyalty and belief - Why it’s harder than ever to tell truth from deception, especially in the age of AI-generated misinformation - And finally…could the MAGA movement itself be considered a modern-day cult? This deep dive will make you question everything you thought you knew about power, control, and truth. TUNE IN to MBB to discover why the line between myth, conspiracy, and history might be thinner than you think… Dr. Richard B. Spence’s podcast, Strange As It Seems: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@StrangeAsItSeemsPodcast⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@StrangeAsItSeemsPodcast Subscribe on Substack for Ad-Free Episodes & Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Iain Viallick.

• 0:05Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 0:07Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to Our Breakdown. This is part two of our conversation with Professor Emeritus of History at the University of Idaho, Dr. Rick Spence. He's an expert in all things secret society, the occult, Illuminati, Hitler's rise to power, and how secret societies played a role in that. In this part of our conversation, we're going to talk about the CIA, we're going to talk about psychological warfare, the difference between misinformation and disinformation, and how it's playing out in our current political climate.

• 0:36Jonathan Cohen?

  We're going to talk about brainwashing cult leaders, why people fall for unbelievable claims, and how vague marketing, words like "great," "better," leave a lot up to interpretation and leave people vulnerable to leaders that have other objectives.

• 0:57Mayim Bialik?

  We're also going to break apart what it means to make America great again, and is it the same thing that our founding fathers supposedly believed in as well? And here is part two of our conversation with Dr. Rick Spence.

• 1:12Speaker 02

  You came to this idea, are secret societies inherently dangerous because they can do things behind a veil of secrecy? They can be. I mean, most of them frankly are innocuous. Nothing really happens. If you knew what the secrets were, they really wouldn't be that interesting. But it is what other purposes those things, what purpose a group of like-minded people join together in an atmosphere of specialness and secrecy? What kind of other things can those be turned to?

• 1:57Speaker 02

  So it can become dangerous, or it can become nothing. It all comes down to the intention.

• 2:06Jonathan Cohen?

  This is where I think a lot of people start to try and find links. Because it's clear that people who are in these societies have trust and have affinity. They're like minded in their thinking. So if you're a government official, maybe in the CIA, and you're trying to execute an operation, you may turn to someone who you trust from your secret society. And people are looking for the influence and the connection in government institutions as it relates to have they brought people in? Have some of the interests or philosophies or ways of or objectives of the secret societies

• 2:49Jonathan Cohen?

  been propagated into modern day institutions?

• 2:52Speaker 02

  Or you create bureaucratic secret societies like the CIA, which even though a branch of government functions separately from most of the others. Because remember, what's the whole essence in an intelligence agency? What's everything about? Secrecy. You exist as an agency to protect the secrets of your government and to acquire the secrets of opposing governments. Everything revolves around secrecy. The other thing which is common in that in intelligence is deception. The way you do that is you deceive people. You lie.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  One of the things that I study in my research are secret societies and occultism and spies. Okay, the kind of trifecta of deception. And this is the thing that still amazes me is just the amount that people lie.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  And here's the truth, human beings lie constantly about everything, often for no particular reason.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Okay, we don't like to admit that, but that is it, but lied to all the time. I mean, look at it, we're constantly subjected to advertisements, we're sort of used to that. And in fact, and advertisements are lies. They're never telling you exactly what this product does. They're never being honest away. It's, it is a finessed

• 4:32Speaker 02

  information which is meant to guide you to a particular thing, which is to buy their product. Because to us, one extent or another, they're lying about what it actually does. See, we're so, we're so inured to advertising that we don't even notice that they're just lies. Again, people that I've looked at and researched, and I said this about one guy that I've been looking at, is that he's always lying, except when he's telling the truth.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  And that was the thing that became so surprising about him is that I got so used to him just lying about things, you know, lying about his resume, lying about everything. Then you find out that, no, wait here, he actually told the truth about something.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  And that's kind of spooky, because then you've got to figure that, well, every now and then he does tell the truth. And, but when he tells the truth, it's, it sounds almost exactly like when he's lying. And, and in fact, what he told the truth about would, on the surface, seem to be more improbable about what he lies about. And you don't know. And that, that's the kind of thing that drives my interest in a way, is just trying to figure out, to eventually be able to parse the truth, the little elements of truth from all of the lies that they're embedded in. Because that's often what you'll find.

• 5:54Mayim Bialik?

  Do these kinds of secret societies, including the CIA, you know, kind of breed lies? And breed sort of a tendency to also fabricate because of this sort of pressure cooker that you're in. You know, I think of a lot of the conspiracy theories, you know, that that are so like prevalent right now. So much of that comes from, I think they're lying to us. This must be the explanation, right? I mean, are we sort of creating a system where no one can trust each other? And that's where some of these conspiracy theories are thriving?

• 6:38Mayim Bialik?

  Because we're losing faith in what we previously thought we could trust? And yes, this is a question vaguely about the current administration, which has told us, you're being lied to. Don't listen to this reporter. Don't listen to, you know, this news story. Don't listen to this doctor. You know, truth itself is kind of up for grabs right now. It seems like a perfect breeding ground for more secrecy and more explanations for secrecy.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Well, everybody tells you that you're being lied to. I mean, I just told you you're being lied to. So with it, but, but I have no power. So, and you are. That's, I mean, that simple statement is true. You are constantly being lied to about things. But it's,

• 7:23Speaker 02

  there's another interesting distinction that has to be made between misinformation and its much more insidious sibling, disinformation. Misinformation is a mistake. That's like when somebody stops and asks you for directions and you give them what you think of the directions. Then the lady will realize that you, you know, you were wrong. But, you know, with the best of intentions, you were trying. Misinformation is a mistake. Disinformation is never a mistake. It is deliberate.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  And the purpose of disinformation is to usually, as the saying goes, lead the hounds away from the fox.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Now, to be good, disinformation, this is the tricky part, must be mostly true.

• 8:16Mayim Bialik?

  I'm getting Jeffrey Epstein vibes right now.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  There you go. Disinformation must be mostly true because part of it will check out. You know, this oftentimes we're kind of lazy and we go through and, well, this guy said this, and I checked it out, and yeah, that was true. Now, at that point, you get lulled into a sense of thinking, and you can go through, and you can find, well, this is true, and this is true, and that's true. So there may be, let's say, 10 key data points, and nine of them are true. But one of them is the lie.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  And all the other nine are just to sell you the validity of the lie, which is actually the product you're being sold, and which you are now swallow along with the other ones. And that will lead you off into another, it will divert your attention, it will corrupt your thinking, it will lead the hounds away from the fox. And that's what the whole goal is. And the thing that you must appreciate is that none of that is an accident. Someone has spent a great deal of time and effort putting this all together with the specific purpose of deceiving you.

• 9:41Mayim Bialik?

  And that's my childhood.

• 9:44Mayim Bialik?

  How do you sleep at night? How do you trust anyone? Do you have a partner? Do you have friends? I'm asking you specifically.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  I have a wife that I trust as much as I do any human being. So not at all? No, no, no, that's not, you know, the, the odd thing is, is you would think. That by this time, I would be totally paranoid. I'm only slightly paranoid. Now, I can be even surprised myself in how trusting I can be of people. Look, I corresponded with a guy for years via email, and I knew the fact that he wasn't telling me his real name. Of course, they never do. And my wife would constantly say, I don't understand why you continue to talk with this guy and why you share information with him and he won't, and he'll admit this, that he won't tell you his real name.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  There has to be some reason why he's not telling you his real name, because if you knew it, you'd run away. And I kind of suspected that was sort of true. But nevertheless, I would continue because it was a useful exchange of information. Even though I knew that on the other side of it, that this individual was not, was being deliberately,

• 11:00Speaker 02

  they were hiding something, but I let them hide it. I eventually found out that it wasn't nearly as, you know, there was nothing terribly nefarious about it.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  A little bit, but not too much. You know, this is the thing you have to do when you meet people. You see, you just have to figure out what their intentions are. And that can often take a while. So,

• 11:26Speaker 02

  and you have to pay attention

• 11:32Speaker 02

  and not be overly impressed by outward appearances. Okay, here's, here's one of the first things that will, that will put me off or raise my, my suspicion, because people are overly friendly. But it does the same with you as well. I mean, people you don't know, whoever, I mean, we like people being friendly, but people can be a little. Jonathan and I are very suspicious of anyone who's friendly. Okay.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  You know, yeah, I mean, why? That usually, that usually takes time. The actual friendship between people takes a certain amount of time and trust to develop. And someone who immediately-

• 12:10Mayim Bialik?

  Says you. Have you not tried internet dating, Dr. Spence?

• 12:13Speaker 02

  No, no, I've not.

• 12:15Mayim Bialik?

  Because within 10 minutes, you can be having sex with someone.

• 12:18Jonathan Cohen?

  Doesn't mean you trust them.

• 12:19Mayim Bialik?

  Doesn't mean you trust them. You trust them enough to exchange body fluids, but that's just this generation.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  It all depends what you wanted out of the transaction, so.

• 12:27Mayim Bialik?

  That's true. That is true. My and Be Alex Breakdown is supported by Quince. You know those pieces in your closet that you reach for over and over again? That sweater that somehow works with everything? The jeans you know will always fit just right? The bag you carry everywhere? Those are the pieces that earn a permanent place in your wardrobe, and that's what Quince does so well. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, premium stretch denim. The designs are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again. And as the weather gets colder, Quince has everything you need to round out your wardrobe, from warm, responsibly sourced down jackets and cozy cashmere scarves and gloves, to beautiful 14 karat gold jewelry that adds the perfect finishing touch.

• 13:09Mayim Bialik?

  I'm personally obsessed with Quince's 100% European linen wide leg pants. I can wear them year round because I live in Southern California. They feel like PJs, but it looks like I put a ton of effort in, whether I'm dressing for casual workdays, lazy weekends, or vacation vibes. I'm also obsessed with their sheets, so soft. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work with ethical factories and cut out the middle people, so you pay for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just apparel. Quince brings that same approach to everything they make, from hotel-quality bedding to kitchen essentials and thoughtfully designed furniture. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too.

• 13:54Mayim Bialik?

  And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was My and Be Alex Breakdown. It's the best way to support our show.

• 13:59Jonathan Cohen?

  How does this understanding about lying, deception, where truth is or isn't, relate to how the country and people can understand what's happening in the country now? Because I would say that there's been a level of deception-

• 14:17Jonathan Cohen?

  For as long as politics has been around, but now it's harder to form a collective deception because there's more opportunities for everyone has a camera, you can document what's happening on a street, you can share information more easily. So a someone who is trying to deceive may have a harder time doing that, even if they're doubling down. What does it mean to know that everyone is lying? And but like, we have to have some collective truth as a society, which seems to be getting harder and harder.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Well, you might assume that if you everybody has a camera and they're filming everything, then the truth will become more apparent. But I bet that's not true. No.

• 14:56Jonathan Cohen?

  Doesn't seem to be.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  And then of course, you've also now got artificial intelligence, which is very, very good at doing what?

• 15:04Mayim Bialik?

  You can't trust anything.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  Mimicking reality, and it's getting better, and it will continue to get better until the point will come, and it will come soon, where what you're seeing, you do not know whether that's real, whether that event ever occurred, or whether that is simply the creation of AI.

• 15:23Mayim Bialik?

  I saw a pig jumping on a trampoline last night, and I was like, it looks really real, but pigs don't do that, especially with a chicken on their back.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  And that's how we judge things. Does it look real? Does it seem like that would happen? In my in my frame of experience, if I ever seen that before, you don't know, you never have know, in terms of what it's a matter of. Now, from an historian's standpoint, one of the things that historians are supposed to do is to figure out what actually happened, and then try to explain the, you know, what, why that's why it's significant that you should know that. Why does it matter whether or not that happened?

• 16:07Speaker 02

  And this is what is is the tricky part is, let's say that there's an event which takes place, an historical event.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  And one of the things to keep in mind is that you'll often find that you could get witnesses. You know, it's the whole thing about eyewitness testimony and what's the least reliable is eyewitness testimony, because you'll get three people who are at the same, they're all watching the same thing supposedly, but you will not get exactly the same story from each of them. Now, why is that? Well, it could be that, remember, whenever anything is happening, we only see half the world. Behind you.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  So if you were looking in this direction and someone else was looking behind you and you're at the same event, you're not at the same event. You're not focused on exactly the same thing.

• 17:01Mayim Bialik?

  Well, the simulation is not rendering everything. It's only rendering what you can see in your purview.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  So beyond the individual impressions, which vary depending upon how much you were attending, and then also how much they change over time, because memory isn't perfect.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  You know, I've now can say that I watched a movie again recently that I watched 50 years ago. There you go. I saw it and I thought I remembered it and I watched it and I didn't remember it.

• 17:40Mayim Bialik?

  That's the blessing of being older. It's like you're watching it for the first time.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Kind of, although I'm, somehow it and another film that was similar sort of blended into each other. So see, the memory I had, which was a perfectly good memory, I like that. I now realize was a lie. Was it, it was some sort of internal AI creation that I created out of these things. So when you go back and you try to find out what is the particular truth about an event? Here's the secret. There is no truth. There never was. There never was any kind of single recorded image. There were, if you're lucky, just all of these people that were there

• 18:28Speaker 02

  who had slightly different interpretations of what happened. One was looking in this direction, one was looking in another. And then later on, they forgot most of it and their memories blended together. And that's it. That's what you have to work with.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  There is no actual, hard, original truth. There are impressions of what happened. And from those impressions, you try to reconstruct as good a picture as you can of what happened. But it's never going to be perfect.

• 19:09Jonathan Cohen?

  I think that's helpful. People think that there's an objective truth and they're trying to find it. But understanding that it's piecemealed like that makes it hard for things that need objective truth, like crime and punishment.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Well, that's, I think that's, you know, why if you're going to, in this case of a murder case, you need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Now, you're getting in terms reasonable and doubt. But what it means is that if you're not certain, you know, if you've gone through all of this evidence and you've looked at the different testimony and you're still not certain, then you probably shouldn't hang them because you're not entirely certain. If you're absolutely convinced, if there is no, again, what that term reasonable means, because we would have slightly different definitions of that, but you want to be as sure as you can.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  But it's, you're even in that case, still allowing for an unreasonable doubt, aren't you? There might be, there might be a little, you know, a little bit, but it's just not enough to overcome it otherwise. So there is no, there's no there, there, when it tries to come down to what was the original, unadulterated, pure truth of the situation, because that never existed outside the fallible framework of human perception and memory. That's it.

• 20:39Jonathan Cohen?

  Explain the difference for us between a secret society and a cult.

• 20:47Jonathan Cohen?

  Potentially a religion, like there seems to be three distinct groups. Religions, obviously, much more accepted and allowed. Cults seemingly the most dangerous. Secret societies, we've sort of covered a bit.

• 21:00Mayim Bialik?

  Religions could be argued to be the most dangerous.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Cult is, the way that it's generally used is that it's a pejorative. It's an insult and it's essentially used for some sort of minor religion you don't like. Okay, one that you can get away with, with calling, calling names.

• 21:19Mayim Bialik?

  Well, hold on, hold on, hold on. I mean, when, when I think of a cult, though, I think of, you know, a, a, a single authority figure around whom everything specifically revolves, that there is a process of indoctrination. There's a process of secrecy that slowly cuts you off from people who don't agree with the way that this cult is behaving. Like, you know, the, those things do tend to distinguish cults from religions or even from 12-step groups, right? A lot of people say, oh, 12-step is a cult. There's actually no authority figure, there's no central, you know? So I just want to give us a little bit of like, I think it's, like, we, you know, we

• 22:03Mayim Bialik?

  speak to Steve, Steve Hussin, he's a friend of the podcast and he's Mr. Cult. So, you know, he would definitely say that, you know, let's say the current administration has more aspects of a cult, right, than it does a religion. And those are very distinct from, let's say, a religious structure or other secret societies.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Well, I was, what I was referring to is the way in which the term is commonly thrown around.

• 22:24Mayim Bialik?

  Got it.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  All right, and, and people, and people will come, well, they belong to a cult or this is a cult. And you're always using it in the same way that people use the term fascist, okay? Even though they probably have, you know, a vague recognition. But it's, it's a nasty name to call someone. So if you want to make a group sound bad, you call it a cult. So how you would define a cult as opposed to a cult, which is something else, there's really not any, here again, you go back to, go back to, to the, to the Latin region, you know, what do the Romans mean when they use the term cultus?

• 23:05Speaker 02

  And in its original form, it basically meant to worship or to adore something. It was simply a form of worship. Remember, the Romans had all kinds of gods and different sort of sects devoted to them. So that may, but then it also had the meaning of cultivation, same root there, you know, of growing, of tending, of nurturing. There's also this idea of, of nurturing, as you would a plant, even in terms of a kind of instruction. So even in terms of the original Roman use, the word had different kind of vague meanings.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  As it's since gone on, you know, later on, by the time you get to, you know, 16th, 17th century, it had basically come to mean any, a religious sect or a religious practice. There wasn't anything good or bad about it. It was just a particular practice which, which someone had. And I think in French, it still pretty much has that meaning in terms of a, of a cult is a religious sect in some way. But the way that we've come to think about it today, it tends to be, there's almost always some spiritual or religious practice which is involved in it.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  But Mayim, you hit upon what is, when I think one of the key signifiers of a cult is what's called excess devotion. Okay, that there's some sort of leader and that that leader is the recipient of what could be termed by those on the outside, excessive devotion. People see, first of all, this person seems to have absolute control. They are in unquestioned authority and everybody does what they say.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  You know, generally speaking, yeah, at least since the 14th century, even popes haven't gotten away with that. I mean, there was always someone arguing with them. But within a cult, you know, you look at, is there some person in charge? And does this person basically have an almost, well, let's, let's cut to the quick. Have they become the little god of this group? Does their authority carry all kinds of? Here's one of the first places, when I was, in the seventies, I was a grad student, UC Santa Barbara. And, you know, nice place on the coast, full of cults. But there were a couple of people that I knew.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  And, and they had joined one of these groups. They, they, they started out going to what? Yoga classes. That sounds pretty simple. Gateway to a cult. And from that, in this case, in this case, it was.

• 25:58Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  They started going to yoga classes. And then somehow their yoga instructor ended up becoming their sort of personal god. And then they're explaining to me with, with great enthusiasm, how they're, how he's instructed them to sell all of their belongings and turn over everything they own to him.

• 26:20Mayim Bialik?

  I've seen that documentary too.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay. And I'm listening to this. Now, keep in mind, both of these people are college educated.

• 26:29Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  Which I've also learned is no guarantee against anything. In fact, it may make you even more vulnerable. And, and I can remember what I said to them, which is that, have you lost your minds? I mean, what? What's, what's the matter with you? Why, why would you do that? I could not comprehend. This is probably one of the whole trajectory in our future research is trying to figure out what the hell those people were doing.

• 26:58Mayim Bialik?

  For the same reason that people have secret societies. Everyone wants to belong. And everyone wants to feel special. And everyone wants to feel that they matter on this planet that is hurling through space in a universe among universes. I mean, to me, it's like, it's so human to want this. And it looked like one thing in 1776, and it looks like another thing now. But it's all kind of the same thing. We just, we want to be wanted and we want to be important. Right? We want to belong.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  We want to, you know, but it comes back to like this question, why the robes and the owl? In the case, in this case.

• 27:36Mayim Bialik?

  Cause it's fun.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  Why, why, why does belonging? Okay, you've now taken all of your money. You sold your car and transferred your wife's trust fund to the, to this guy. And he's using this money. And oh, by the way, you're also working in the cult businesses for free.

• 27:54Mayim Bialik?

  Right?

• 27:54Speaker 02

  And, and he's living on a yacht, which he's bought. This really happened, by the way. He's living on a yacht, which he's bought with your money and everyone else's money.

• 28:04Mayim Bialik?

  Correct.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  And I'm looking, is it, you know, why does your spiritual enlightenment have to be with you? Just what appeared to me being obviously taken advantage of by a charlatan. Okay, you're being, you're being deceived, but you know, this game. And they didn't see that way. They thought they were getting something out of it. They seemed to be really happy.

• 28:26Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, so this is the other thing I want to ask you about. One of the features of cults and some aspects of religious participation is brainwashing. It is manipulation. It is mind control. We spoke to Rebecca Lomov. We speak to Steve Hussin about this. What part of secret societies has built in the need for some sort of mind control? And psychological capturing of people's attention and resources to further their mission?

• 29:01Speaker 02

  Well, I presupposes that there's, that there is a mission in this somewhere.

• 29:06Mayim Bialik?

  I think there's a mission.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  In, in, in, in the Illuminati, in, in Adam Weishaupt's Illuminati, I would use him. There was a clear mission. He created this group with the idea, what did he want to do? He declared it very simply. We are going to undermine and destroy all existing political and religious order. And we are going to replace them with a new order based upon an enlightened elite. And what was the ultimate goal of this? The great, the great thing that every, that all the little people were going to get out of it? We are going to make people happy and free. But first, we must make them good.

• 29:51Mayim Bialik?

  No, I don't like any of those words. Happy, free, good.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  Well, see, the words mean nothing. We're gonna make them happy and free, which doesn't explain what it, but we're going to make them. See, there's that whole idea of good men into better men. We're going to make people happy by making them good. But it just leaves wide open what the definition of any of those terms would be.

• 30:16Mayim Bialik?

  You know what? I'm gonna throw this at you. Make America great again, Dr. Spence.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Yes, what does great mean? What would that look like?

• 30:26Mayim Bialik?

  I can tell you what it means. It means using, using citizens to arrest other citizens. It means taking away rights of the press. It means taking away free speech. Is that greatness? I don't know. Project 2025, this was the, the blueprint for greatness.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  When words like great or good are used in a slogan, what that basically means is that they're meaningless. It has no particular meaning. It's, it's just, it's a buzzword. It's, it's, it's an advertising term.

• 31:00Mayim Bialik?

  Well, they got a lot of hats that say it.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  Okay, so like I mean, so that this, you know, that the, the, the new tide is better than it was. Well, there's something, was there something bad about it before? How is it better specifically?

• 31:11Mayim Bialik?

  But that's capitalism also. We need to constantly outdo what you already spent all of your money on so that we can get you to spend it on something else, right?

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Well, we want you to buy the same thing over and over again. A lot of this is, is really sort of messing around with people's concept of reality. This is one of the things I've heard is that one of the things the internet has done is that by creating all of these kind of echo chambers and, or where every group finds their own community. Look, and that's one of the things it can do. I'm not necessarily sure that all human communities really need to exist. Okay, because sometimes you can get like-minded people together.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  And it all depends what they're like minded to do. You ever think about that? What is the like mindedness?

• 31:57Mayim Bialik?

  Well, but I mean, if you look at the history and I'd hate to throw religion under the bus because I am, you know, part of an ethnic and religious community. But the entire, you know, presupposition of religion was we have the best way. We have the best God. We have the best answers. We have the way to heaven. Right? And for, for all of history, this has been this conversation. Right? What's the best way to get you salvation? What's the best way to get you happy, free and good in the next world? Right? So we're, we're kind of all living in a, in a juggling of this.

• 32:37Speaker 02

  Or should you be happy, free and good in this world? Well, here's, here's a troubling thing. I didn't, but it's.

• 32:44Mayim Bialik?

  To add to the other troubling.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Okay. It's gonna, it's gonna sound like I'm, I'm attacking religion, which I'm not really, but somebody else is, but I'm going to repeat it. It comes down to this difference. What's the difference between a religion and a cult? Well, was once said that in a cult, there is always someone at or near the top that knows it's a scam. In a religion, that person is dead. It's worth thinking about.

• 33:17Jonathan Cohen?

  It can also be said that though, in a cult, the person who may be at the top, maybe deluded enough to believe that their psychotic manic episodes are actually real and they are leading people towards some kind of salvation or mass suicide.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, can people become, can you come to believe your own bullshit? Yes, all too easily. That's, that's a lot of what happens. I think a lot of history is just that, but although there's usually someone, I'm going to take a particular group here. Have either one of you seen a documentary called Wild, Wild Country?

• 33:59Mayim Bialik?

  Of course.

• 34:00Jonathan Cohen?

  Amazing, yes.

• 34:01Mayim Bialik?

  It was my Halloween costume that year, of course.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  Well, if you look at that particular group, you know, you've, you've got the Bhagwan Osho. I don't think you can, you know, it's pretty clear who's actually the person who knows the whole thing is a scam. That is Sheila.

• 34:20Mayim Bialik?

  Sheila.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  The second, the second, she's running the whole thing. I mean, this is a guy who controls people by not talking to them. I mean, this is, I've, I've apparently just got bored of what I'm talking about and I'm not going to go on. So, but you, you can see why I find this fascinating. I mean, I'm, I'm going to move to a small place in Oregon and wear orange clothes and give all of my money to this guy who doesn't talk to me. And, and I'm going to be happy about that.

• 34:52Jonathan Cohen?

  First of all, his work and his writing is still circulating around the world. There are libraries and organizations all around, like globally, in almost every country that are teaching his philosophy and people swear by there being some nature of enlightenment in his poetry and his writing. And so potentially there's a message in there that was eventually corrupted by the cult and the organization that led people to be drawn to him.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Probably, maybe, kind of. How many more qualifying terms you would have? Ah, you know, that's one possibility, or it was all BS in the beginning and then people just rationalize the BS and, you know, nobody likes to, by the way, the, the, the couple I mentioned who had given all their money to the guy who bought a yacht with it did eventually fall out with a group. Did it eventually come to the conclusion that they had perhaps been misled?

• 35:56Speaker 02

  But of course, it was all the fault of other people who took advantage of them. It wasn't just because they were being stupid.

• 36:03Mayim Bialik?

  What Steve Hudson talks about is that President Trump is actually a perfect example of occult mentality surrounding a figure that has been given a disproportionate amount of power. And it's a little bit like the emperor wears no clothes, you know? Like, there's certain aspects of it that no matter who you voted for, what you believe in, there's certain aspects of this that it feels a little bit like we're living in a parallel universe. Like, you can't just make up words and use them, but apparently you can, you know? This is the President of the United States? Like, he is using a vocabulary of words that is so tiny, and everyone's like, "He is

• 36:46Mayim Bialik?

  a brilliant orator." Like, what is happening? That, to me, feels like occult mentality, meaning I'm willing to say we have a flawed leader, or we have a leader who chooses to speak in a way that my children are not allowed to speak at my dinner table. But for everyone to sort of be like, "He's this magical mystical creature, and like, we are saved, and he's the next coming of Christ," right? Like, that feels like something has been swept up that just doesn't feel, it just doesn't feel anything relating to normal.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  It's not. Well, I mean, I don't want to get too partisan in this, but there was someone I was talking to a long ago who was going to this whole thing about that Donald Trump was simply playing, I think they put it, he was playing, you know, five-dimensional chess, okay? Fourth dimension was enough. But somehow, and that the reason why what he was saying didn't seem to make any sense was because, basically, I and other people are just too really stupid to understand this, because he's playing at such a higher level that you can't comprehend it. Well, it's either that, or my counter to it was, is that it makes absolutely no sense

• 38:02Speaker 02

  at all, and you're just, you're trying to explain nonsense. You're trying to take nonsense and turn it into sense.

• 38:09Mayim Bialik?

  That's right. If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a cart.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  So... Scott Galloway says he's eating the chess pieces. The thing is, is that is that we humans, and I'm including myself in this because, you know, I'm one of them. We do this stuff all the time and we've always done it. And it is a, you know, it's just part of our habit, you know, we, we, we, we give all of our stuff away to some guy who goes and buys a yacht with it. Okay. And then later we kind of wonder, well, how did that happen? Okay. Who did something to me that that would happen? You know, you're, you're, I, I think we, we expect, we expect more out of ourselves than

• 38:56Speaker 02

  we actually tend to get. I think it was Winston Churchill. Okay. Because Churchill had something to say about everything. So why not? Who said that he came to, his, his estimated people was that everybody is a little mad about something. He didn't mean angry. He meant that they were cra- you know, and, and this, I've tried this out in an experiment, is that, you know, this is the thing with people. Most people, most of the time, are polite and friendly. I mean, you know, you go into a, do a transaction, you go buy food, we're doing, and, and your general exchange is polite and friendly, because that's the easiest way for these

• 39:39Speaker 02

  things. And they seem normal. Most people, when you meet them, seem pretty normal. It's, it's the roommate test. Perhaps this has happened to you. You decide you're going to live in this abode with this person. And initially, they seem to be normal.

• 39:55Mayim Bialik?

  You're describing me and Jonathan.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  After a certain period of time, you realize that you're living with a crazy person. Okay. And most people are like that. I mean, you marry them sometime, you know, they're, they're normal for the most part. But then at some level, there's some point, people are nice and reasonable and sane until suddenly.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  They're not.

• 40:20Mayim Bialik?

  You bring up pomegranate juice brands and they lose their mind.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just something that they're gonna go off on.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  So yeah, I think that most people, I won't say everyone, but I think that most people, present company accepted certainly, are on some level insane about something that at a certain point, they will just lose all rationality and just go nuts about it. And for the most part, you know, it's a measure of not whether people are insane or sane, but just how insane you are, how widespread that has been. And that's just this way of having some sort of skewed

• 41:04Speaker 02

  sense of reality. And but that's the world we live in. And that's, that's, that's what kind of makes it scary, also makes it interesting until it kills you.

• 41:19Mayim Bialik?

  And on that note, we say, thank you for joining us.

• 41:23Jonathan Cohen?

  I mean, my takeaway here is find the people who are crazy about the things that you're crazy about in a similar way that you're crazy. And hopefully there's some symmetry there.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah. Seek like minded people who share your brand of insanity, swear each other to secrecy, and then take over the world for the greater benefit of everyone. There you go.

• 41:46Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you, Dr. Spence. It's really a pleasure talking to you.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Thank you. Pleasure talking to you as well.

• 41:55Jonathan Cohen?

  Truth is very complicated. And what I found very comforting is that you are on the front lines investigating what is true, what is not true, watching every pig on the internet to make sure that they can jump on a trampoline or not, and identifying what is fake news and what is real.

• 42:16Mayim Bialik?

  You know what?

• 42:17Jonathan Cohen?

  And I just, I'm comforted by the fact that you're out there doing that work.

• 42:20Mayim Bialik?

  I'm patrolling. And I also like a lot of crazy weird things, like visually. I like animals who shouldn't be friends being friends. But I feel like the era of

• 42:36Mayim Bialik?

  Trusting amazing thing, it's over. My mother once sent me and both my kids a picture of an insect that looked like a lotus flower. And picture the most beautiful lotus flower of your psychedelic dreams. It was that with legs and a face. And she was like, can you believe that God made this? And we were all like, absolutely not.

• 43:00Jonathan Cohen?

  The internet made it.

• 43:01Mayim Bialik?

  But what if it's not that easy to tell? And no joke about the pig on the trampoline. I, I came at it with a critical eye. The only reason I know that it's not real is because I decided that it wasn't real. Everything else looked 100% accurate. Six months ago, when I was looking at some of those AI things and it was like, I have seven fingers. I was like, I know that's not real. They fixed that. Everybody's fingers look fine. It's all a mess.

• 43:33Jonathan Cohen?

  I was with the video until you told me there was a chicken on the pig's back. That might have given it away. What about the fact that the video that was uploaded by Trump about the med beds? And everyone gets a med bed card? And it was like a Fox News segment where everyone is going to be regenerated by this amazing technology that can regrow limbs? Had you, had you not included the regrow limbs part?

• 44:01Mayim Bialik?

  Maybe it can happen. I, we studied some crazy shit in grad school.

• 44:04Jonathan Cohen?

  There's just this bed and it has all this technology that can help repair your illness? Like, that's almost believable.

• 44:12Mayim Bialik?

  What I, what I really liked about talking to Dr. Spence, you know, was how much overlap there is between conversations about secrecy?

• 44:28Mayim Bialik?

  Deception, lies, and really kind of like intention, right? What, and that seemed to be what is the most elusive. And I kept wanting him to answer. I want to know like, oh, the Freemasons wanted to kill all the indigenous people and, you know, have world domination, or take over England, you know, or the Illuminati wanted to, I don't know enough, my kids are always like, it's the Illuminati. But once he described the Illuminati, yeah, it's an elitist, intellectual, kind of overlord sort of secret society, right? I want to know what they want to do. But it seems that what we need to sort of come away from this with, and it's a much larger conversation than we could even get to with Dr.

• 45:09Mayim Bialik?

  Spence, is that through all of history, and we talked about this with Brian Murerescu, if you want to study the Dionysian, you know, the original secret societies, which in many cases were run by women, who we would classify as witches, which got co-opted by, I sound like such a mouthpiece, the patriarchal religious organizations that started taking over. These things left the organic spaces and became the domain of what male society in many cases determined.

• 45:49Mayim Bialik?

  If you think about how the women's healthcare used to be the purview of other women and of midwives, right? It got taken over. I mean, to me, this is part of what these societies, I don't mean to sound so paranoid, but that's part of what these societies are. And, you know, I didn't want to start fighting with Dr. Spence, but I think it's, it should be underlined that this is a dude thing. This is something that men like to do. I think of the, what are the men's therapy groups? They're going, ah, they're drumming at the moon, and maybe it's great. I know there's beautiful wounded warriors projects, you know, that are helping men connect emotionally. I'm not saying that's a secret society, but I think the notion that there are these spaces

• 46:30Mayim Bialik?

  that historically men are carving out, I think it's very significant, and it becomes a sort of tribal. Identity, right? We do this, they do that. We don't do this, they don't do that. Or our team against theirs, or we have goodness. We know how to make you good. We know how to make you obedient. We know how to make you a good husband, whatever it is. There's all these different ways, and maybe that's what it is. Maybe it's a modern tribalism. I don't know.

• 47:00Jonathan Cohen?

  Modern tribalism, but I think of it a little bit more in terms of the mandate or purview of the leadership that are the organizing principles of the organization. And when you have things like define good, it's define good to what end? Like, maybe it's just pure Christian values of being a better husband and being there for your wife and raising your children with, you know, whatever religious teachings that they hold true.

• 47:31Mayim Bialik?

  I also want to clarify that when you talk about kind of good Christian values, you're not talking about that there's one absolute way to, let's say, feel about other religions or about LGBTQ community, like anything like that.

• 47:44Jonathan Cohen?

  No, I'm saying that the organizations believe in their version of values and therefore those versions when brought and shared by the community or the organization are good or the right way. So everyone has their perspective and it's like what Dr. Spence said about collecting like-minded people and then spreading those value systems. But I think, you know, when you talk about the Bohemian Club, while it can't be said that they choose the president, again, this is just the show Billions. I'm not an expert in this, but the show Billions dramatized this scene in the woods where a potential presidential candidate goes to try out for the elite. And during his tryout, he's like, you know, it's not that they choose the president,

• 48:29Jonathan Cohen?

  but like the last 12 presidents have all gone there, been knighted and accepted and then go on to win the presidency. So what is control and influence? What is cause and effect? And what is just coincidence that it happens to be that these organizations have all these places of influence?

• 48:49Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, who rules America? Apparently, see, these secret societies know.

• 48:54Jonathan Cohen?

  What do you think people should take away from this episode? Like, I'm thinking about the summary, the wrap-up. And I kinda liked his wrap-up, which is that, you know, there are all these pockets of people and people form these little tribes and communities. And each one has the way that they think better should be. And that you should form the ones that are closest to you. I also really like the notion that everyone is their version of crazy. We think, oh, that person's crazy. And we use it as derogatory slang. But what's really happening is that we're all peculiar in our own way and find people who match your peculiarity.

• 49:31Mayim Bialik?

  I think that's a very nice takeaway. I mean, I think that a larger takeaway, you know, would be to behave cautiously around anyone who is amassing a large amount of power. And I think be careful about people who are receiving a tremendous amount of praise without a lot of questioning of some of the deeper meaning behind what they're trying to implement. And I'm literally thinking of, you know, gurus. I'm thinking of the documentaries I've seen where there's an environment where you don't question and where you heap praise and where you start giving up your own rights, your own time. A lot of cults in particular, people are asked to work without pay

• 50:16Mayim Bialik?

  because it's for the good of the organization. It happens in certain religious communities as well. Be wary, be careful. You know, whenever I talk to friends also who are dating, right? Or using apps, anytime someone that you barely know is telling you how amazing you are, ladies, that's a red flag. Gentlemen as well, that's a red flag. If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

• 50:42Jonathan Cohen?

  And if some guru or teacher or meditation instructor is telling you to give them all your money and stop speaking to people that you know and love, be cautious.

• 50:54Mayim Bialik?

  I think the place to end would be, I'd say, one of my most favorite quotes from Buddha. And I looked up on fake Buddha quotes, is this real? "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense." The Buddha said that. Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense. So we were given reason and common sense and we get to use it. So yeah, Jonathan, tell the people where to get more of us.

• 51:28Jonathan Cohen?

  If you want to explore science and spirituality and be amongst like-minded people who are sharing your brand of crazy, come join us on Substack, MindBee Alex Breakdown on Substack. Our Breaker community is growing. Come be a part of it.

• 51:43Mayim Bialik?

  From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time.