Re-Air: Dr. Becky Kennedy: Wire Your Children for Resilience

In honor of "Supporting Young Minds Month," we are revisiting our episode with Dr. Becky Kennedy. Dr. Becky Kennedy (clinical psychologist, founder of Good Inside parenting workshops, author) helps us use attachment, mindfulness, emotion regulation, and internal family systems theory to break down better ways to parent! She not only provides great, practical parenting tips, but also helps us understand our own upbringings, how they impact our lives into adulthood, and provides insight into why our parents did the things they did. Dr. Becky discusses why she found the best way to work with children was actually working with their parents through body-based approaches to psychotherapy, her own paradigm shift in parenting styles, and the differences between attachment parenting and helicopter parenting. She explains the importance of wiring kids for resilience with self-soothing techniques in order to ditch old patterns of behavior, building skills to manage emotions through validation, and how to provide kids with tools to process difficult emotions. Mayim and Dr. Becky define reflective listening, boundaries vs consequences, and how feeling alone can lead to shame and fears of abandonment. They discuss the benefits of learning to embody your authority as a parent, ways to provide structure to a child with anxiety, and the benefits of internal family systems (IFS) therapy. Mayim and Jonathan break down the benefits of cooking with your children. Dr. Becky Kennedy's Book: https://www.goodinside.com/book/ Dr. Becky Kennedy's Parenting Workshops: https://www.goodinside.com/workshops/ Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/ ⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Speaker 00

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• 0:34Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.

• 0:35Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 0:36Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to our breakdown. In addition to the revisit of our episode with Jonathan Haidt that we released earlier this month, today, also in honor of Supporting Young Minds Month, we're going to take a look back at an episode from, gosh, almost three years ago with everybody's favorite doctor, Dr. Becky. She's a clinical psychologist, the founder of Good Inside Parenting Workshops. Becky Kennedy is very, very popular. She gives fantastic, grounded advice, not just for parents, but honestly, a lot of these tools are just how to interact with humans. And since Supporting Young Minds Month is about empowering adults to support the mental health journeys of the young people in their lives, we thought that this would be great

• 1:17Mayim Bialik?

  to revisit this episode with Dr. Becky, who helps people wire children for resilience.

• 1:22Jonathan Cohen?

  What I was struck most by in this episode was how Dr. Kennedy describes issues with their children as issues, most of the time with the parents. And she talks about strategies, tips, mindfulness, emotional regulation, internal family systems theory, to help us better understand how to be there for our children. One of the moments was when she talked about how if we didn't receive something as adults, we will have a really hard time giving that to our children. So actually, parenting our children is a way to reparent ourselves, and that is such an important mindset shift because it can help us not only realize that we're showing up for our kids, but actually for ourselves.

• 2:07Jonathan Cohen?

  It's a healing journey.

• 2:09Mayim Bialik?

  She's also going to talk about the differences between attachment parenting and helicopter parenting. A lot of people think those are the same. Tips on self-soothing techniques and also tools for kids to process difficult emotions, which is helpful for adults as well, as I said. And especially if you have kids on the anxious side. Also, how to set clear and effective boundaries and what are appropriate consequences for kids for different scenarios you find yourself in.

• 2:32Jonathan Cohen?

  Have you been enjoying this content? Guess what? There's a place where you can get even more. Connect directly with Mym and Jonathan and with the larger Breaker community. It's all available on Substack. Mym and Be Alex Breakdown on Substack. If you haven't already, check it out. You're gonna love it.

• 2:48Mayim Bialik?

  And now, we hope you enjoy taking a look back at our episode with Dr. Becky Kennedy. Break it down. Dr. Becky Kennedy, welcome to The Breakdown. You are very, very popular with a lot of people that I know. And what's funny is, you know, obviously, I have your book. And my assistant, who is a new mom, told me a lot about kind of specifically like what you speak to for her generation. I also just love your story that you weren't like, "I'm gonna be an Instagram doctor and fix everyone's lives." Like, you kind of accidentally wandered into, you know, a wisdom that, and I say this not

• 3:31Mayim Bialik?

  to like bring you down, but to elevate you in that what you're doing is not trying to revolutionize anything. You are trying to present the most rational, respectable way to create this next generation, who, by the way, we've given like a broken planet and culture. So, there are some really incredible, fundamental things that you talk about that so many people don't get. Tell us a little bit about sort of like your training, like what your specialty kind of is/was, and how you became more of a public, you know, doctor, as it were.

• 4:12Speaker 03

  First of all, thank you. It's like really, really fun to be here and what you bring into this conversation there just resonates. So much. So my experience and how this kind of all came to be. So I I've always just found people fascinating and I found systems fascinating. So like families, obviously are one system. I always kind of find actually businesses and leadership really interesting too. And pretty early, I guess in my teenage years, I realized you could like literally make a career out of that. So that sounded like really fun to do. So I went to Columbia to get my PhD there and kind of child and adult psychology. So play therapy and work with kids and therefore with their parents as well. And then also with adults. And then I really actually

• 4:55Speaker 03

  focused on therapy with adults, right? And because I realized the thing I liked the best about working with kids was actually working with their parents, but I didn't kind of connect the dots then and think, oh, I I could do that.

• 5:05Mayim Bialik?

  You're like, oh, wait, they turn out this way because of those people. I might as well focus on them, too.

• 5:10Speaker 03

  Oh, like, they spend a lot more hours with their parents than they would with me in the therapy room. So I just, I feel like I'm very practical. I'm like, I feel like that's very efficient. Let me like, work with them, you know. So I opened up a private practice, worked with adults in like, really deep psychotherapy, like, once at minimum a week, twice a week, kind of really influenced by attachment theory, by internal family systems, by mindfulness, by sensory motor psychotherapy, like, really kind of body-based approaches. And then I had my first, my first child, he's now almost 11, which is crazy.

• 5:44Mayim Bialik?

  You weren't like, I've seen enough children that I don't want to do this myself. You were like, I'm gonna do my very own experiment, and I don't have to run it by any ethics committee.

• 5:54Speaker 03

  I don't know if that was really the thought process, but but maybe if I, you know, maybe deep down, I was like, oh, I could, I can shape this child into something. Um, yes, no, I was just, I guess, you know, I just never thought about not being a mom, you know. So my husband and I kind of, we met when we were in college, we got married early. So and then we had our first. And I realized more and more, I just loved working with parents, because I love the deep psychotherapy, and it spoke to like, this deep kind of mindedness I have, and looking at kind of theory and translating it into work and helping people Kind of more of their kind of sturdy selves, but I also really, really like to be practical and concrete and action oriented. And I realized with parents, I could like really do that.

• 6:37Speaker 03

  But then I went to get more training. So I was like, okay, well, this is, you know, a big field. There are people who like know how to work with parents. So I went to this evidence-based parenting training. And I have to be honest, at first I was like, this is amazing. Like we can extinguish all the bad stuff. We can get more of the good stuff. Timeouts, sticker charts, ignoring praise. And truly, it wasn't like I was in this training and I would like raise my hand as a whistleblower. I did not. I was like eating it up because my brain, like the logical part of our brain, which is obviously only like a small part of our body, but it really like likes that. So, and then I brought it to my practice, and this is not a joke. There was literally a session that I heard myself talking to someone about how to give a timeout when their kid hit their baby sister.

• 7:19Speaker 03

  And I literally said, I was like, I'm sorry, I actually no longer believe the thing I'm telling you. And literally, I was just like, I only thing I can tell you now is I'm gonna give you your money back. They were like, okay, well, that's kind of unnerving. And I was like, I just know this isn't the thing. I wouldn't feel good doing this with my kid. And I definitely wouldn't feel good if I was having a problem. Like if my husband said I had a timeout, like I'd be like, you have the problem. Okay, not me. So I was like, that must be how kids feel. And I just know there's a better way.

• 7:50Mayim Bialik?

  Can you flush that out a little bit? I mean, it makes me, it makes me very emotional because it is often when we see the thing that is hurting our child, that we realize, how could I do this to you? And how could someone do that to me? Right? And you see it with the small, it doesn't even have to be, God forbid, hitting, right? Like, if you've ever scared your child with your temper. It feels like, I mean, for me, it is the worst thing. Because it is so not what they actually deserve in that moment. What it is, is it's an expression of my inability to control my emotions.

• 8:35Mayim Bialik?

  And the look on that little face, right? The, I mean, it's terrible. So I just wanna like, I wanna like, put an asterisk around that for you. Because like, to be able to say, wait. Like, that's a, you had a paradigm shift.

• 8:50Speaker 03

  I, I really did. I heard myself saying something. I don't know what it was that day. Like, I wish I remembered more. Like, I don't think anything happened with my son before I went to my private practice that day. Like, I don't know what it was, but I, and I really mean this. I feel like as I've gotten older and older, I, I feel like I like, trust the data in my body. Not like above and beyond science. Like, I definitely believe in science. That data is really important. But that feeling of like, wait, this doesn't feel right. It doesn't mean there's any like, objective truth to it, but, but it matters.

• 9:22Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 9:22Speaker 03

  And I feel like it matters and it's, it's the thing so many of us like, are trying to get back to, right? And I was like, this just doesn't feel right. Like, this can't be the way. There has to be a way that we can interact with kids that feels better to everyone. Because giving a timeout doesn't feel good to any parent. So then, I was just like, what, what do I know? And I was like, I'm gonna think about all these adults that I've worked with. And all of them come to therapy for the same reason. Literally, none of them on the surface come to therapy for the same reason. But I feel like every one of us, me included, go to therapy because there's really like, ways your body has been circuited early on, you know, that's right? We've developed patterns early on that were put in place to protect us and stop serving us.

• 10:07Speaker 03

  But our body is understandably hesitant to let go of the things that were put in place to help us survive. So we're stuck. And everyone, that's true. And I remember thinking, well, I know the type of work with adults that really does help them rewire. And I just remember thinking like, what if we reverse engineered that to today's parents and then gave them a way to interact with their kids that both helped them adapt early on in ways that maintained being adaptive, where like you didn't have to go through, I mean, we're all gonna have to rewire in some ways, but you know, really supported long-term development. What if we interacted with our kids today that would give them the skills they need for life, rather than set them up in a way where they would kind of be 25-year-olds

• 10:48Speaker 03

  with kind of the same skills as like three-year-olds, right? And to me, the core skill we need in life is just emotion regulation. It's like the single thing that underlies every other thing we do. And I was like, that's what kids need. And we know how, I know how adults now build regulation. I know what happens in the therapy room. I know these experiments I have them do. I know our relationship. I know the revisiting. I know internal family systems and understanding our parts and all of that. So like, what if I kind of just thought about, okay, well, how do you do that with kids? And then I truly remember thinking this. I said, you know what people love about behavioral kind of parenting approaches? People love clarity. And we all love clarity. We will, I really

• 11:30Speaker 03

  believe, will always choose clarity over something that quote feels good, because feeling confused and like rudderless is just the worst feeling. Because every parent cares about their kids. So you want to have clarity on your role. So I just remember thinking, like, as these days went on, okay, well, if I'm gonna kind of think about how to translate some of these other ideas into a kind of practical approach, like, it has to like beat behaviorism and clarity, or at least be like as good. Like, it has to, parents have to know, okay, this is what I do. I have to know what my role is. And if I know what my role is, I will be able to be effective. And so then, and then honestly, like, I just, I started running a bunch of parenting groups and doing parenting lectures. And, and I

• 12:13Speaker 03

  love doing that. And honestly, for years, my husband's like, I don't understand. You will come home after a day of seeing clients and doing two parenting groups. Most people are exhausted. And you just want to tell me like, everything that happened. And like, I love you, but I just, like, I don't really. I don't really care.

• 12:28Mayim Bialik?

  Enter the internet. You're like, millions of people will care.

• 12:32Speaker 03

  Right. He's like, you care and you need to like, put that somewhere. And, you know, and he's always like, you should write a book. And then I was like, I could write a pamphlet because my pet peeve in the psychology world is I was like, why does everyone write 30 pages for what could be expressed in like one paragraph? Like, I feel like the field is full of that. It just feels so lofty. But what ended up happening is my three-year-old daughter, now I had a second kid, was going through a lot of sleep issues. And so I was like, okay, I know about attachment. I know about regulation. I know about internalization of our relationships and self-soothing. And so I kind of like MacGyvered the sleep product for her. That like changed her relationship with sleep. I then used it in my private practice and it also helped kids around divorce and missing a parent and sleepovers and so many things around separation.

• 13:14Speaker 03

  It's literally basically like a recordable button, like of your voice, like essentially saying the thing your kid would need to learn to say to themselves to soothe themselves.

• 13:22Mayim Bialik?

  I'm obsessed.

• 13:23Speaker 03

  Safety and anyway, but like, to me, this is the thing. I was like, we can do both. Like, we can help a kid in a good way. But every time she presses that button, she's learning the skills she would need to soothe herself in anxious moments in the future. Like, there's, there's a lot of like, and I feel good about it because she gets nice mommy on the button instead of very annoyed with her at 2:00 a.m.

• 13:40Mayim Bialik?

  What? You don't want me to record my angry shushing?

• 13:44Speaker 03

  No, me neither. Trust me. Mine's not shushing at 2:00 a.m., you know? So, and then my, my really good friend who's an entrepreneur said like, we're making this a product. And she's like, and so I just started writing because I realized I was going to make a product. I had to do this writing. And then we abandoned the product at that moment. You know, where like the ideas mattered the most. And I had seriously probably 100 written Microsoft Word pages of just ideas. But then I was like, well, I'm not doing this product. And I don't remember if my sister, my husband, probably both, who was like, well, they live, like it lives on your computer or it lives on Instagram. And I was like, what is Instagram? Basically. And my sister's like, you, you are pathetic. Like, a lot of people use this. I'm going to show you.

• 14:25Speaker 03

  And I put up my post, first post, February 28th, 2020, two weeks before pandemic craziness in the States.

• 14:34Speaker 03

  And then, two weeks later, I put out this post about how our kids will remember more about how their family homes felt during coronavirus than anything about coronavirus itself. Our kids are looking us, like, kind of learning how to respond to uncertainty. Let's wire them for resilience, not panic. Swipe for nine ways how. And that post, like, now I don't, like, went, it went viral, and it just, that took off from there.

• 14:57Mayim Bialik?

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• 15:41Mayim Bialik?

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• 16:24Mayim Bialik?

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• 16:27Speaker 04

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• 16:57Mayim Bialik?

  What's so important is that, and this is what I keep hearing people say about you, is you communicate the nuance of the concept and the scientific basis for what you're saying, but you don't have to read 6,200 pages to get there. Like, you've done the research, and you went to school, and you did all the things, and also, you're living it. And I'm sure, you know, we all have our days as parents and partners and all those things. But that is, that's so exciting to me. It's very exciting. Jonathan, are you as excited as I am?

• 17:30Jonathan Cohen?

  I am.

• 17:31Mayim Bialik?

  The reason that I'm bringing you into this conversation, Jonathan, is that this used to be called mothering, right? This used to be called, you know, mothering. And what we've seen is a really positive, and yeah, I do believe it started with the women's movement in bringing partners, and in many cases, men, you know, into these conversations. But yeah, I would like to hear from you, because a lot of people may not know you are an extremely active, engaged parent who, you know, dedicates your life to parenting from a much more centered way than I even know how to summon a lot of the time. So, yeah, I'd like to hear, because although husbands were still kind of, you know, or boyfriends, kind of in the shadows, I think it's important to hear from a dad voice, like, what this means to you,

• 18:16Mayim Bialik?

  because you, you live it. You live it more consistently than I do, honestly.

• 18:22Jonathan Cohen?

  I joke with all my friends who are meditators and, you know, on a conscious path. I'm like, you are not centered and calm or conscious until you have spent an entire day or a week with a two-year-old. And if you can maintain your monk sensibility, I think actually monks should come and like work with a group of two-year-olds and see how well they maintain their centered and groundedness. Because nothing is as, I don't, I don't want to say infuriating, because you have to sort of let go of a level of expectation and you have to

• 19:03Jonathan Cohen?

  communicate and foresee needs in a way that are not logical and necessarily rational to an adult mind. You're like, you have, they're operating and sensing at a different level. My path as a parent has been, you know, trying to be as clear about what signals I'm sending to my son that I may not be aware of and how is he reacting to those? And how can I foresee what he will need ahead of what he may need? And so that I'm creating the environment. Like, my son had really intense, well, I guess, just different sleep patterns. And one of the advice that we got was that, you know, putting a kid to sleep is as much about the start of the day and the routine and consistency throughout the entire day

• 19:46Jonathan Cohen?

  as it was anything specifically at night. And I was like, when I heard that, I was like, oh.

• 19:52Speaker 03

  It's like, oh, their whole, their whole day actually matters for what kind of person they're gonna be at night? Oh, it's not a doll.

• 20:01Jonathan Cohen?

  And I definitely was at that, like, I don't know, I was not a young, young parent, but I was in my late twenties when my son was born. And I was like, if I just get him a lot of exercise in the evening, he'll be tired out and he'll collapse. That didn't work.

• 20:17Speaker 03

  I think so often with like these parenting things, parents do go to like, oh, so I have to like, do all this stuff during the day. But the flip side I always think about with parents is like, but that's actually really empowering. Like, you don't have to get it exactly right at night. Like, you just actually have a lot more opportunities to do one or two things, right? And it's so easy to, it is, I mean, it's so easy to just feel so overwhelmed and like disempowered, right? But to me, the best goal with parents I work with and definitely, you know, and Instagram and definitely on the platform is like seeing how many parents Like, wow, this actually like, I feel so empowered, like in parenting, but also outside of parenting.

• 20:51Mayim Bialik?

  I didn't even know how frustrated I would be that someone wouldn't nap when I thought they were tired. And finally, I literally, you know, I had to call the pediatrician and he was like, Mayim, he's, he's not tired. If it's taking an hour to nurse him down, you're starting too soon. And I was like, of course, right. That's what it was, but it took me, it took me many, many painful weeks. I kind of wanted to know if we could just like hit on a couple of things. I don't want, I said to Jonathan, I'm kind of like nervous to have you on because I don't want to be like, sum up all your things in, you know, this hour that we have with you. But I, I wanted to have you maybe do a little bit, something different. I, I want you to speak, mainly I want you to justify all the things that I did that I hope were right.

• 21:35Mayim Bialik?

  So one of the things that bothers me the most when people say it to me as an adult and they say it to kids is, you're fine, you're okay. And it starts when they fall. And, you know, I also came from this, this parenting style of like, I was so over the top, like with emotion, that I didn't want to be that parent who was like, oh my God, you fell, what's gonna happen? Like, and then they start crying when you point out that they fell is often what happens because crying is one of their only languages, especially when they're learning, you know, to crawl and walk and be. And so, you know, in many cases, we want to go the other way and be like, you're fine, everything's fine. But what I realized is you wouldn't do that emotionally, so don't do it physically, right?

• 22:20Mayim Bialik?

  And that sort of had to be the basis of where I started approaching it. Meaning when a child falls, and let's say they hurt themselves in their perception. When you say you're okay and they know that they're not because they are scared or they are hurt. It is very confusing to a child's mind to know that they're not okay and the person that's supposed to tell them. What's what is telling them you're fine when they know that they're not? And it's true emotionally and it's true physically. Can you speak a little bit to kind of backing off on this culture of us telling them they're okay? Like what's, I don't want to say what's wrong with it, but what do you, how can you frame this for us?

• 23:01Speaker 03

  The first thing that comes to mind for me is like maybe a little like zoomed out before we zoom right back in on that. But I have so many thoughts about the falling down thing. The zoomed out kind of thought I have is in general, right? There's, I don't know, it's a culture or it's also the way so many of us were parented. There's a focus on getting rid of emotions and not tolerating emotions. So those are just very different angles, right? Like bringing something to zero and making something more manageable are very different. So telling a kid they're fine is like, I want to bring this to zero, right? It's always like well intentioned, a parent like is like, I like, it's probably just also reflexive. But the parent probably at some level was like, this is how I learned to deal with emotions.

• 23:43Speaker 03

  And I see my kid upset, so what activates in me is whatever, you know, was circuited early in me. And yeah, so I think that this is all part of like that more general topic of are we trying to help ourselves and our kids tolerate feelings? And so they get to a more manageable level. And I always like kind of, I'm a very visual person, so I always picture, I don't know, we have like a jar of feelings. And now let's say pain or, you know, crying is the only thing happening for a kid. Am I trying to kill that off or am I trying to make that like a smaller part of the jar, which then would make space for the other feelings that were at that point crowded out, right? So that's what I would say. I also think that's just what like is more resilient in the course of your life, right?

• 24:24Speaker 03

  Cause I always think like, I just never had an adult come to my private practice saying their parents like successfully got rid of all their disappointment. And they never felt it again, right? So that just, it doesn't happen. So you feel the feelings, it's either you have the skills or you don't. That's the only difference.

• 24:39Mayim Bialik?

  And if that were true, they wouldn't be in your office, right?

• 24:42Speaker 03

  Exactly, right? Yeah, so I'm big on like the reason, and I think this is so important because I think it is easy for parents to say like, oh, but like, I don't want my kid, I don't want my kid to be a snowflake or. Well, I don't even, I actually don't even really know what that means, but like, I feel like people say that a lot. Like, I guess that's like, you know, they can like, I don't know, you know, you touch them and they, they get ruined, right? I want my kid to learn to cope in the world and, and I, I really mean this, I love skeptical parents. Like, I really think skepticism, like, I really feel like it sits next to curiosity, like they're, they're cousins or something. So it's right there. But I always say to parents, like, yeah, I agree too. Like, I definitely don't want my 25 year old to like, have some like tiny elbow bang into the wall and them to like,

• 25:23Speaker 03

  ah, you know, like stop their whole meeting at work. Like, that definitely would be awkward. I don't want that either. And the way we get there isn't by telling someone they're fine. It's actually by building the skill they would need to manage that feeling. And the way you start to build a skill is by validating what's happening, right? It's, it's like, I always feel like it's like the simplest way to say it is you cannot learn to regulate a feeling. You don't allow yourself to have.

• 25:50Mayim Bialik?

  Say that again.

• 25:51Speaker 03

  You can't learn to regulate a feeling you don't allow yourself to have. You have to allow a feeling to live in your body, which is kind of the experience of like, oh, this feeling is real, to then learn how to manage the feeling. If you're in kind of, you know, if you're working toward getting rid of a feeling, you're trying to get the feeling out of your body. Well, how can you learn to manage a feeling, right? So like, I'll always say to those parents, like, yeah, I agree. Like, we're, we're actually trying to do the same thing. I can explain to you how I see it. I'm not going to try to convince you. It's, it's, you know, can see it any way, but that's how I see it. Like, we're actually, we're working toward the same goal. No one wants their 25 year old to like bang their elbow and like have a conniption. Like that, that wouldn't be adaptive for a 25 year old. So, but we just get very short sighted.

• 26:35Speaker 03

  So we think like, I have to shut it down now. So we shut it down then. No, what's going to happen then is not that they're going to shut it down. They're going to have a voice that says out, and actually this speaks to, I think, falling. The reason kids have such big feelings about falling is the violation of expectations, not the pain. And, you know, if there's one line that I think is a magical line with kids. And I'm laughing because my husband said it to me the other day, what I really need to hear too, is, "Oh, you didn't want that to happen," or "You didn't expect that to happen."

• 27:07Mayim Bialik?

  Wow, and that's just an observation. This is what we call reflective listening, right? It's an observation. You don't have to fix it, solve it, explain it to them, tell what color it feels like. It's an observation. And what it means is, you matter. What you just experienced matters.

• 27:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I think it's like existentially deeper. Like, I really feel like kids, like, one of the questions I think they're always asking the world and therefore their parents is just like, "Am I real?" Like, I really think kids, like, "Am I real?" That feeling that doesn't have a color, or doesn't, isn't physical, like, "Did that thing that I think I sensed, like, did that really happen?" Like, and so I really feel like it's like, "Am I real?" I think the other question kids are asking are like, "Am I safe?" Right? So I think boundaries and validation, empathy, and those are all ways of showing a kid, "You're real and you're safe." And if we fast forward, the kid who falls down and starts crying, and the parent says, "Okay, I kind of want to say you're fine, but I'm going to try to say this thing," and we're saying, "Oh, you didn't, you didn't want that to happen." You know what's gonna happen, let's say, not from saying it once, but now your

• 28:14Speaker 03

  25-year-old bumps their elbow, and you know what's amazing? They're gonna say to them, "Oh, I didn't, I didn't want that to happen." And then they're gonna go on with their day because they validated that experience to themselves, because they now have a language to talk to themselves. That is the internalized language of how you approached that unexpected moment in their childhood. That kid is not melting down. Not like, if they did, that's fine, too. Something else probably is going on. It's not against that, but they probably won't because we've delivered them coping skills through our ultimate strategy, which is our relationship with them in their tough moments.

• 28:49Mayim Bialik?

  I love this. Okay, so that, that was like the first thing I wanted you to tackle. You fixed it, you get 110%. We love you. We're very into all the things you're saying. And also, the way you say them, I like how you speak. Okay, the next thing I wanted to have you tackle, and this is, it's a, it's a personal one, and I do want to give out a shout out to Dr. Siggy Cohen, who is a therapist here in the valley, who has... Taught me a lot of these things, meaning this realm of things. So when, when children, let's say are experiencing divorce, and they have to spend time, let's say in two different places, or even if a parent, let's, let's even remove it from divorce.

• 29:29Mayim Bialik?

  When a child misses a parent, let's say a parent is, you know, God forbid, sick or on a work trip. When a child is crying for another parent, what Dr. Siggy told me was the hardest thing because here were my solutions. Let's make a drawing, let's call them, let's write a letter, let's have a cookie, let's take a walk. And what Dr. Siggy said was, how about no to any of those? And I was like, but why? I fixed it. She said, no, what it is is you miss your dad. Ouch. Let me hold you. And I was like, oh God, but that's gonna make me cry. And she said, exactly.

• 30:10Mayim Bialik?

  Because sometimes things are sad, and if they're sad for you as an adult, why would you ever try and take that away from a child who is developing and learning how to function in this broken world?

• 30:23Speaker 03

  I'm gonna push you before I answer. What makes you sad about him being or her being sad?

• 30:28Mayim Bialik?

  Well, what I ended up having to say out loud to my child, and this was age appropriate, was, I miss daddy sometimes too. It's hard. It's hard to not have daddy here.

• 30:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:40Mayim Bialik?

  And I was like, oh my God, this is me living with my children. And it's not burdening them, meaning it has to be done in an appropriate way.

• 30:49Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 30:49Mayim Bialik?

  But what they learned is like, yeah, this is life. This is life. And the notion that my parents who were like, I mean, when I look back, they were children when they had me. I mean, they seemed so old, right? They were kids who had just moved out of their parents' house. My mom was 18 when she got married. Like, they were kids. And I was raised with this notion of, we know everything and everything is fine. Except that I knew that it wasn't, and they knew it wasn't too, right? Explain what that means. Like, what do you do with hard feelings?

• 31:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. I do think we always have to like, think about this long-term because it's what, it's what grounds us and it's what motivates us to do hard things with our kids. Like, what do I think I want my kid to do when they're 30? And they're, you know, if my kid called me and they were like, I don't know, my, my girlfriend of 10 years, just, I'm making this up, walked out. But I'm good. All good, Mom. I'd be like, that's, that's disturbing. Like, nothing? Like, I don't know, right? So, again, like, I always think simplest, we want to feel things how they are. And to us, there's no objective "are", but like, we want to feel things how they are. And some feelings are more pleasant than others. But also, the way things end up feeling in our bodies, to me, are a combination of the feeling itself,

• 32:04Speaker 03

  and the way we respond to that feeling, or the story we have about what the, what the feeling means about us, right? I think especially as adults, right? So, a feeling is the feeling itself, and our reaction to the feeling. And we don't have any control over the feeling itself. We do learn, in our earliest years, how to respond to the feeling, right? And I think the worst thing for humans is feeling alone. Aloneness, attached to a feeling, brings on, like, you know, like, shame, it brings on abandonment fears. It's kind of like a kid learns, the part of me who feels this way is not attachable to others. So that

• 32:46Speaker 03

  part actually is, it's, it's threatening my own survival, because my job is to attach to parents, right? So, oh, boy. So, the next time I feel that feeling, when I remember, my body remembers, like, oh, you're making, you're being ridiculous, or you're overreacting, or come on, you're fine. My body remembers aloneness. My body remembers I was in kind of some emotional hole. Everyone was just trying to pull me out, but no one actually just got in there with me. Also, what we learn is that feeling must be so bad, because if my parent is so scared of me feeling that way, oh, my goodness, that actually must be such a destructive, awful, wrong feeling to feel. So, of course, the next time you then, let's say it's miss your dad, that much more intense. What's the alternative?

• 33:28Speaker 03

  I, I mean, I think there's a couple of things. Number one, just like, that advice is great. Like, just name what's happening. It's like, in some ways, the simplest thing, like, you're sad you're not seeing dad. Like, even if you say nothing else, it's like, so simple in a way, but so, it's so hard, because maybe this, if I think about divorce, for example, a lot of parents, they hear their kids say, "I miss dad", and they feel so guilty. They essentially feel, they go into bad parent mode. "I, I fucked up my kids. It's all my fault." And then they can't tolerate their kid's feeling because their kid becomes just like an actor in their play and they have to make the feeling go away to make themselves feel better.

• 34:08Mayim Bialik?

  There it is.

• 34:09Speaker 03

  And then the kid loses out. Honestly, I think the adult loses out too.

• 34:13Mayim Bialik?

  Totally.

• 34:13Speaker 03

  Because both people kind of collude in the fact that they're both probably more resilient than they think and they both could actually cope with those things.

• 34:22Jonathan Cohen?

  It's also just a level of emotional honesty. Like you have to be vulnerable in a way as a parent and most parents are trying to protect themselves because they're in that cycle that you described of feeling something and then not being able to feel it and most of us have never been taught how to do that. And so we fly off into anger and rage and trying to control their emotions, but really like, because I've heard it said that you can't hold space for what you can't hold for yourself. So if your kid is going through this intense feeling, then how are you possibly going to do it if you've never allowed yourself to feel any of these emotions? That's where the triggers come in.

• 34:59Speaker 03

  Hundred percent. And yeah, I think, I don't know if either of you've read Richard Schwartz's work, his Internal Family Systems. It's like just brilliant. And he talks about the internal family systems in our own body and these different parts. And you know, I think the vision that comes to mind for me is let's say I see my kid really sad that they miss their dad, whatever it is. And my body like kind of scams itself. And it's like, what do I know about dealing with sadness? Because it's just like a circuit. And if what my body knows about sadness is shut it down, shut it down, danger, danger, danger, that part is actually trying to help. And it's like, oh, I know what to do. And then it like rises up and talks to your kid. It's literally, you're not even talking to your kid. You're talking to yourself, right? But these are those intergenerational patterns then that just kept passed on until we changed them.

• 35:44Mayim Bialik?

  I want to stay on this because my concern is that people would be like, why are they having a parenting person on? We're not all parents or whatever. But here's the deal, people. This is the mirror that Dr. Becky Kennedy is holding up to you. All the things that even if you don't have children, if you don't want children, if you don't believe in children, what this kind of communication that this woman is having with you on her Instagram and in her books and like with us right now, this is the stuff that many of us didn't have and it is the stuff that I would like to believe our parents

• 36:25Mayim Bialik?

  would have wanted if they knew to do it this way or to do it different. And I know there's a lot of people who might be like, "It's fine. I was hit. I'm fine. Everything's fine." Great. I'm happy for you. And if your life is how you want it, I appreciate that. That's great. But I remember what my mother said. She got married in 1964 and she said at that time she was considered a feminist because she wore what she wanted and her religious family didn't like that she wore open-toed sandals to this wedding. She was considered a feminist because she spoke her mind. Like, that was insane. But she said the fact that, and I promise this will loop back, she said, "I gave up my name." And she said, "I was treated like a piece of property being taken into a home." And she said, it

• 37:10Mayim Bialik?

  was the pinnacle of her existence was to give up your name. It meant someone would have you. You could leave your parents' home. But she said, looking back, she said, "If I knew then what I know now, of course I would have kept my name so that I could find friends when I was a grown up," right? And when I think of that and I think of this, I know that my mother, she would have wanted this if she had the resources and the ability to take it in. One of the things, though, that I wanted to have you speak to is two things happened when I learned to approach parenting this way. I spoke a lot more than

• 37:50Mayim Bialik?

  I thought I needed to and I needed to shut up a lot more than I thought I'd have to. And people associate attachment parenting and people who parented like I did with like helicopter parenting. And actually, you can be an attachment parent and be a helicopter parent. You can also not be an attachment parent and be a helicopter parent. It's actually totally different. So what I learned was the RIE philosophy, R-I-E, the RIE infant character. Yeah. And the RIE philosophy, along with kind of the stuff that you're talking about, actually makes you shut up a lot. Because you do not need to constantly narrate your child's experience in the universe. Can you speak a little bit to kind of where we have to put our voice?

• 38:34Speaker 03

  First, just the word noticing, I feel like, is the first word that comes to mind. Like, just even without talking, just like noticing what's happening for your child is like an action that's valuable, right? It's less palpable, maybe, than like saying something or doing something. But noticing, right? So it could be noticing your baby and how they're exploring the world and saying to yourself, because we're just also action-oriented. And me too, I'm such an action-oriented person. But we all like to do, do, do. So like, being is like hard for people and, I mean, and hard for me, right? So just watching and reminding yourself, this is all I have to do. I'm just gonna watch my baby. That matters. I'm learning too.

• 39:15Speaker 03

  I think another thing that comes to mind is, and it relates to fixing also versus noticing, is some of the most powerful interventions with kids, I think, just come from like stating what's happening in front of you. "I don't wanna go to school." "You're going to school." Versus like, "I don't wanna go to school." "Oh, there's something about this morning." You just like, don't wanna go to school. Like, I just literally said it, you know? Which, again, I think what a kid feels in that way is that feeling that led to that verbalization. They're like, "Oh, that's real. That feeling is real." And when something's real, we just, you know, we can approach it differently, right? And a kid feels like, they feel seen, right?

• 39:58Speaker 03

  And once any of us feel seen, we feel much less attached. To the thing we said we wanted, that was really just about feeling seen for the, you know, the need. So as soon as, that's true for adults too, right? Me and my husband are arguing about like where to go to dinner and he's like, oh, you really do want to go to sushi. I'll probably be like, oh, we could go to pizza. That's right. Like all of a sudden I'm just flexible because I feel real. You know, that feeling feels real. So I always think about this thing that happened at my son where he woke up, my, my youngest, right? He's like four and a half. So the other day he woke up and he always wakes up like before his green light, right? So it's like before 7am and he like, he gets dressed. He's like my third. So he's like the most independent. He gets dressed, he brushes his teeth, he does all the things his older siblings don't do. And then he comes out at seven.

• 40:42Mayim Bialik?

  He's the good one. That's what you wanted to say. He's the good one.

• 40:45Speaker 03

  He's the one who like, I did, I did the least, right? And it speaks to like how they will just do the things they need to do and you, you lay off. And so I went in, it was like 7:05 and I was like, what's going on? Like you're, you know, and he wasn't even dressed and he was like, I woke up at the green light because it's usually the red light. And I was like, okay. And my mind, I'm like, okay, like, everybody wins. You had better sleep. Like do your thing. We have plenty of time. And he's like, and I'm not getting dressed and I'm not going to school. This makes no sense, right? So it makes, it feels like it makes sense to me to say, you're not making any sense. Just get dressed now. Come on, we gotta do the thing. And, and this, this is what I end up saying to him. It was like one of my good parenting moments. It doesn't always go like this, but I was, I was, I was on it that day. I said, oh, let me see if I got this right.

• 41:27Speaker 03

  You woke up and it's always the red light and it's always the red light. And when it's the red light, you get dressed and you brush your teeth and you wash your hands and you, you know, whatever, the whole thing. And then you wait and you wait and you wait and then it's the green light. And then you turn your light on and then you do the rest of it, then you come out of the room. And I was like, but today, like that got totally messed up. And you woke up and it wasn't the red light at all. It was the green light. And it's almost like that's so different. I can't even do any of the other things that I usually do in a certain order. By the time I got that part, he literally got out of his bed and started doing his whole routine. Like the entire thing. Like the entire.

• 42:09Mayim Bialik?

  What did you do? So, so what did you do?

• 42:14Speaker 03

  What I did is I told him what was happening to him.

• 42:18Speaker 03

  I just told him his experience. Like honestly, it wasn't, I don't even, I really mean, I didn't even interpret it that much. I just was like, there's something about saying to someone, "Let me see if I got this right." And they're always, you know, you should say that to a kid when it's the moment that you just want to tell your kid what to do instead. "Just put on your shoes. Just put on your shoes." It's like always the right time, if you can, to take a deep breath and say, "Let me see if I got this right." You really don't want to put on your shoes today. Now, like, is there magic to that? Is your kid gonna spontaneously put on their shoes, right? No, like, they're not robots, but skyrocketed, skyrocketed. I just, there was, again, it just, I feel like it always goes back to feeling real

• 42:57Speaker 03

  and feeling seen and feeling less alone. And when you feel less alone, you know what it is? Like, you have movement, right? Feeling alone is like part of the animal defense state, right, of like freeze, right? It's like a freeze response when you feel threatened in that way. And there's something about feeling a connection to someone, I feel like it unfreezes you. So you can have movement, you can get out of a power struggle, you can choose something different. I feel like this happens, like, all the time with my kids, when I'm, when I realize it's like, they actually need something so simple, right? Like, "Oh, let me see if I got this right. This birthday party isn't what you thought it would be. It's like a lot noisier, right? There's a lot more kids. You thought it was gonna be just the kids in your class, and it's the whole grade. That's really different from what you imagined. Period."

• 43:39Mayim Bialik?

  You don't need to fix it. You don't need to be like, "Let's leave, let's do that." Just like, see where that, because also, they are very, very complicated creatures. And I promise you, with all my training and all my science, blah, blah, blah, with all the therapy I've been in, I literally didn't realize that pretty much as soon as they're toddlers, there's an entire, like, structure of their psychology. I thought it's like, you play with them until they're 10, then you help them do their homework, then they leave your house and they make you happy. Like, I'm serious. I had this notion, and then, and then it's like, oh my gosh, they have so many needs and thoughts and like, they have a sense of humor so quick. Like, I literally didn't real, they're tiny, tiny adults, you know?

• 44:24Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, or we're just giant children.

• 44:28Speaker 03

  Both, exactly. I mean, I think what resonates about that is just, we all need the same things. We're all looking for the same things, right? And this other model of parenting, again, you know, just like the punitive, the looking at your kid, no one says this, but like you're looking at them like the enemy, essentially, words like defiance, you know, manipulation. You're like, oh, like, it's just like aggressive, you know, like you're pitting against each other. Like, I can't imagine, you know, I say this a lot, like, if I was sitting on the couch reading a book, and my husband was like, Becky, we gotta go now. And if I was like, I need five minutes. And he was like, you are defiant, and you'll get your iPad taken away.

• 45:12Speaker 03

  It's just like, it's absurd. Like, no one, no one would hear that and think he was right. He'd be, they'd be like, you have like a real, you've got something going on there. Like, you know, she's not complying. Okay, that's true. That's frustrating for you. Okay, she's not doing the thing you want her to do. But like, what's really going on there? Right? Or the kid who's quote fake crying, right? Manipulating me, like, well, why, why does a kid feel like they have to escalate the expression of their emotions to get attention? That's, that's a deeper story, too.

• 45:43Mayim Bialik?

  That's what I do as an adult. It doesn't work? Oh, I guess it doesn't work.

• 45:48Speaker 03

  It doesn't work.

• 45:48Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, so that's, that's extremely helpful. I want you to do a little tidbit on what we called, again, I don't know what the, what the new term is that you, the kids are calling it. We used to call it reasonable consequences. So, we were, you know, kind of taught and, you know, educated in this style of parenting. And what we were told, and what worked for us, was that, and, and you may not agree, but I'm just gonna say mine, and you could do yours.

• 46:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:19Mayim Bialik?

  So, I have never, and, and I mean never, I have never withheld dessert, or whatever. I've never withheld a treat. I've never threatened to withhold a treat. I have never taken away technology as a consequence for something that was not technology related. And what, what reasonable consequences means is that it does not ever make sense to a child as a method of discipline, in my opinion, to have something taken away from them that has nothing to do with the infraction that occurred. So... For me, if a child is abusing, misusing, whatever, their technology,

• 47:03Mayim Bialik?

  it makes sense to say, if you cannot be honest with your technology time, we're gonna take a break from technology and that's a consequence, right? But for example, when I hear people saying, "If you hit your brother one more time, I'm gonna take away your iPad", to a child's mind, they don't do that math that you're doing. And I remember that this worked until it became hard to make it work and we had to find other things, but my favorite example, children go through a phase of wanting to throw things when they have a new sibling in the house, when they never threw things before. And what this was, was my almost three-year-old saying, "You're gonna change the rules? Let's see what other rules can change." And so he started throwing his trains, his little wooden trains.

• 47:46Mayim Bialik?

  And so what we did was we did balls are for throwing. So we were a family that did not use the word "no", we used other ways around it, but we're just those hippies. So balls are for throwing. We try that, and you do that, you repeat it, cuz, you know, conditioned response, like, "If you do this, I give you a ball", blah, blah. It didn't work. So finally, I said, "We do not, we do not throw our trains and I'm gonna put the trains away for some time", and he doesn't know what time is at that point. And I took his bucket of trains, you know, the little bucket, he did not like watching this happen. And I, very calmly, I walked it all the way to the kitchen and I put it on top of the refrigerator. And he, I mean, one of the more hysterical moments he's had, and also he just had a new baby brother, and he's hysterical.

• 48:29Mayim Bialik?

  And what happened was, and this was my experience, which I have seen replicated, the trains were up there for two days. He did not tantrum about it. He asked for them the next day, and he would cry, and then he would find something else to play with. And I took the trains back down and he never threw a train again. And I'm not just saying this anecdotally, I'm saying that this was the way we approached things. If you misuse or hurt an object. When it comes to hitting, you cannot take away their hands. And it became much more complicated. But I would like you to speak to this notion of consequences that are related to the thing, and also it sets up a weird relationship for me with food and technology if it's dangled that way. Can you speak a little bit about that and fix it for my head?

• 49:13Speaker 03

  Okay, so first thing, I think the mindset we're in with our kid is the most important thing. And to me, it's all about recognizing... Do I see this as me against my child where my child is a problem? Or is this me and my child against a problem? I mean, it's the same thing with a partner or like anyone at work. If it's not me and you against a problem, no intervention is going to be successful. And so the way I put that into practice in my own world is like, the way I'm thinking about this, do I like my child right now or do I not really like my child? If I don't really like my child, then I'm probably thinking about it as me against you. And here's the thing for me about the word consequence. I don't like anyone I give a consequence to. Like, I just don't think I like someone if I'm using that word. That to me is like the source of truth. I don't like defiance if I'm calling someone defiant or manipulative. I don't like them, so I don't like any of those words. I don't like the word consequence, actually.

• 49:58Speaker 03

  I mean, it's fine, it's a word, but-

• 49:59Mayim Bialik?

  No, but you're right. I've said that to Jonathan. This is the consequence for- That's a terrible, hurtful thing that I said. And Jonathan, I'm apologizing because it's true. I feel very justified in saying, "Well, it's just a consequence." It's a terrible thing to say.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  So, but here's, here's where I see the difference, right? What I often think we do as parents with even the consequence is it's- I think a lot of us, especially women, we have a lot of trouble embodying our authority and being a leader. And to me, in place of a consequence is a boundary, is I'm not going to let you throw. I won't let you. To me, the phrase that every parent needs in their vocabulary is, "I won't let you." Because you see a kid throw, what they're saying is, "I can't stop my own urge." Is anybody here capable of stopping this urge? Right? Which is why it's so dysregulating to parent for kids where they're like, "You know I throw a truck. Why would you even leave me in a room with a truck?" Like, if you know I ran into the street, I don't think a parent would be like, "Go and just don't run into the street."

• 50:58Speaker 03

  They would just be like, "I'm not going to let you because it's not safe. It's not a consequence. I'm just going to be the boundary for you that you can't be for yourself."

• 51:06Mayim Bialik?

  Because I'm the adult and you're the child and I'm taking care of you even in ways that you don't yet understand.

• 51:11Speaker 03

  That's exactly right. And visually, a kid has to feel like you can set a boundary. You can be the container for their really big urges and feelings that they can't be for themselves. That's the first time they realize it is possible to contain this feeling because someone else did it for me. So go to the truck example. I'd have something very similar. I probably would phrase it slightly different, but it would be like, I'm not going to let you throw those trucks. You look like you're having a really hard time making good decisions with their trucks. It's not your fault. You're not a bad kid. You're having a hard time. So I'm going to move the truck. I'm not going to let us have the trucks, right? Then my kid cries. I can still empathize. I know you wish you had those trucks. You know what? In the next couple of days, you and I are going to figure out a different way to get that out. And then when we feel like it's safe again, I'll bring back the trucks. I'll probably stay close to you. If it happens again, I'm going to remove them.

• 51:54Speaker 03

  Like, no one's the bad guy. I always think like, the thing kids feel, I think, more than anything else from parents, is, does my parent look at me like I'm a good kid having a hard time or a bad kid doing bad things?

• 52:05Mayim Bialik?

  Say that, say that, say that again.

• 52:08Speaker 03

  Kids feel, more than any words, more than any tone, more than any intervention, they know whether their parent is looking at them like they're a good kid having a hard time or they're a bad kid doing bad things. And that difference is what forms their identity and the role that they further identify with in their family. Right? So we say to our kids, why are you throwing? You have a baby sister. Your older sister never did this. Come on. What's wrong with you? You know what a kid takes in? Like, I'm, I'm the bad kid. That's who I am. I take in that in as a mirror. The thing with, you know, listening issues, all of these things. Why does my kid keep throwing? Again, it's like, this isn't a listening issue. This is your, even a well-made parent,

• 52:51Speaker 03

  this is your inability to embody your authority and say, there's no trucks.

• 52:54Mayim Bialik?

  What? That, I mean, that, you just said it. This is your, I mean, and, and that's what, that's what has occurred to me every time I have raised my voice, every time I have angrily shushed, every time I have grabbed my child not gently.

• 53:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:10Mayim Bialik?

  It is my inability. And that's the thing. So many people, they want to dig their heels in. No, it's fine. I have to hit them if they're going to run into the street. That's actually not true. It's the year before. It's the two years before. It's all the things. And yes, if this sounds like hard work, that's because it is.

• 53:31Speaker 03

  But, but let me, let me, I want to reframe that. Cause to me, you said something beginning about child focused parenting. I actually think good inside, it's both. But I think if people had to choose, it's parent focused. Cause what parents say to us is, wow, like through this way of thinking about my kid and the work on myself, like my kid's behavior changing, which actually has happened, is actually like the number 10 thing on the list of things that have changed. Like I asked her a promotion for the first time in my life. I asked my partner if they would get in so I could sleep for the first time on a Saturday. My partner sighed and looked annoyed, but I was able to still do the thing I want and not take that in as my fault. Like I feel confident and sturdy. So one, yes, it's, it's two things are true. It's hard work. And, and I always think for parents,

• 54:14Speaker 03

  there was, someone asked me this, I actually literally ran into someone on the playground in New York City the other day. And she was like, I follow you and I've been thinking about joining your platform. And I know this is like so weird. I'm asking you this at a playground, but there's just so many things out there. Like, can you, can you promise me if I join, like it's going to help my kids? And this is what I said to her. I was like, look, I actually, yes, like I'm that confident, but here's what I'm more confident about. It's going to help you. Like we care about being a parent. We deserve to feel confident and clear and sturdy, like not just for our kids' benefit, for our benefit, like as a human adult, right? So yes, learning to embody your authority is always the alternative to consequences. Like I know my little one who's zero people pleasing in him. He will press every elevator button in the world. So either I could say,

• 54:58Mayim Bialik?

  I want to do that.

• 55:00Speaker 03

  Sure. It's very fun, right? A lot of feedback when something lights up, right? So either I say, don't press the button. Hey, hey, I said, if you press one more button, okay?

• 55:11Mayim Bialik?

  Of course she knows how to do that voice.

• 55:12Speaker 03

  When I get in the elevator, I stand between him and the buttons. And when he lunges forward, I say, I'm not going to let you push those buttons, sweetie. That's it. There's not even a listening problem and there's no consequence. That's it. I've just avoided that whole thing. The other thing I'll say about consequences is this, like just linearly, there's a feeling or urge or thought. If we can't manage that, or haven't learned the skills, or just don't have access to them, then if those feelings, urges, and thoughts get so big, they convert into behavior. Right? Disregulated behavior is a sign of a dysregulated feeling. There's three things, right? There's a feeling, or a thought, or there's an internal sensation. Let's say there's a feeling. I feel really unsafe and insecure and jealous of my brother, right? My new baby brother.

• 55:56Speaker 03

  Okay, if that feeling overpowers the skills you have to manage that feeling, then the feeling explodes out of your body. It literally is like, I can't live in here. I don't have the skills to stay in here. So they come out, and it comes out in your extremities, and words, and a bite, and your fingers. So now there's the hit. Okay, then after that, maybe there's a consequence that you give. Taking away your iPad. Unrelated, whatever, fine. Like, I always think it's interesting. Like, don't we want to change the circuit before the behavior? Like, why do we think a consequence after the behavior is gonna be the thing that makes a child stop the behavior? Like, it's not true for adults either.

• 56:39Speaker 03

  Like, adults aren't like, wait a second, you know what's gonna happen if I yell? I just, you only stop yelling if you manage the feeling.

• 56:48Mayim Bialik?

  That's exactly the problem for me as an adult. Like, and Jonathan and I have been like, we spoke to some really unbelievable people on this podcast that like rocked our brains recently, and we've been like communicating differently. And low and behold, if I pause, if I think about what I really need to communicate, and if I'm vulnerable with how I'm feeling that is leading to me wanting to act out and tantrum. Like, I can stop that. And yes, it means more meditation, because I have to like, I have to calm my nervous system on a daily basis.

• 57:31Mayim Bialik?

  Because if I come at the world at an eight... I'm very quick to blowing my top and I do it with him. I'll do it with my kids. It's the same thing with children. You said, change the circuit before the behavior. And it's not too late, people. It is not too late because people will say to you, I'm sure you get this all the freaking time. You don't know my kid. I have to put them on a leash or they won't blah, blah, blah. I have to hit them. It's the only language they understand. People, this is not the only way to parent.

• 58:06Speaker 03

  And I, and again, I think that we're skeptical parents and I can align is again, like, yeah, I agree. We definitely want your kid to stop hitting his brother. Like definitely like, but also here's the key thing we miss is we forget like in that situation, you, a kid who's hitting their younger brother. Like both kids are the victims there. Like you need to protect the kid who's being hit for sure. But you also need to protect the kid who feels so out of control and who feels like a bad kid. Like that, that kid needs so much protection.

• 58:34Mayim Bialik?

  They're trying to get a need met and they have a limited vocabulary and we have to give them the vocabulary.

• 58:40Speaker 03

  I think that's exactly right. So if we go further in that example, let's say it's hitting. Right. What I always teach parents is okay. So first of all, you want to watch your kid. And you're going to start to notice again, there's the power of noticing, just notice like the way your kid changes their body or like, when do you think they get close to hitting? That's when you pull your kid aside. Wow. Oh, it's really tricky to share your toys. It's your new brother. Oh, I don't know about you. And this is like, I think a big thing for me, like, I don't know about you. I need a deep breath. Like again, from the aloneness, you can't just teach your kid a skill. They feel shame. They feel other like, but you can create that space. I've now already intervened in the circuit. Frustration was building in my kid's body and it was met with pausing, moving away from a target and taking a deep breath. That's going to do way more to limit, reduce eventually end hitting.

• 59:25Speaker 03

  Then giving a consequence, which doesn't teach a skill, which adds something after the behavior that you don't even want. And now you've added shame and blame, which only makes feelings more unmanageable. Like I just, I just feel like logically it doesn't even make sense.

• 59:42Mayim Bialik?

  Another thing that I wanted you to speak to, and it kind of like runs throughout a lot of things you do this. You put it, you put it under the category of like not being alone. One of my favorite things, and I, I don't think I learned this from anyone, meaning I, I gathered it. And the way that I say it, and it usually happens when. When I'm stumped, like when, when someone's crying and I don't know what to do. And what I learned to say to them is, I've never been your parent with you at the age you're at, with me at the place I'm at in my life until this moment. So give me a second, because I don't have all the answers. I've never been, I haven't, I mean, cosmically, I've never lived through their childhood with them to know how to handle things.

• 1:00:26Mayim Bialik?

  So when things happen that I don't know, what I have to say, and it is, it's like, I need a minute because we have to figure this out together. I'm still your parent, I still know what I'm doing, we're not besties, but we're in this together. Can you speak a little bit to that? And I think what it gets into is also this family systems thing, which is more of an academic psychology thing that you're kind of bringing to us in a layperson's way. But can you kind of speak to that, that dynamic?

• 1:00:58Speaker 03

  First of all, I think we all want like a sturdy leader in our life, right? I always think about this as like this pilot metaphor where like if you're a passenger and you're going through a ton of turbulence and it's like really, really, you know, like scary turbulence. I feel like there's three pilots that come on. The first pilot is like, I don't know what you're talking about, there's no turbulence, it's fine. Please, like everyone be quiet, you're making a big deal out of nothing. And like, that's so invalidating. Now you're like, does this pilot not even realize there's turbulence? Like, because like, that doesn't feel good. And I know, I know I felt it, I think I know I felt it, like you're panicking for that reason. So that's the parent who's like, you're fine, it's no big deal. Second pilot is like, this is really turbulent, like anyone out? I'm gonna open the cockpit door, anybody wanna come in?

• 1:01:40Speaker 03

  And now you're like, I'm now just terrified that this person's my pilot. I don't even care about the turbulence. And to me, that's the parent that, and it's no one's fault, but when their kids are having a hard time, they kind of merge into that hard time. And again, now, the feeling isn't even scary to the kid. The thing that's scary is that this person is like their leader through this. And then there's a third pilot that I would want on my flight, who says, yes, it's turbulent. It's okay that you're all, you know, screaming. Yeah, have a good day. Okay, scream away. It's not gonna like disturb me. I still know we're gonna land in Los Angeles. Wherever they're going, or maybe they even say this. Look, it is really turbulent. I know we're gonna figure this out. We might have to land early. I'll let you know when I have more information. That's all I know now. I've got this.

• 1:02:22Speaker 03

  I'm I'm ending this conversation. And to me, what you're saying there, my is like, it's actually one of my favorite strategies. I think it's like what kids with anxiety need exactly in a moment is like there's some structure I find to saying it this way. Which is like, look, here's what I know. And here's what I don't know. Right? And that's kind of what you're saying. Like, I don't know exactly what to do in this moment. But it's it's so helpful for people to hear a sturdy leader name what they don't know. Because when you name it, you categorize it and you almost make it a known quantity. Right? So like, this is amazing at like doctor's appointments. Here's what I know. And here's what I don't know. You're gonna get a shot. It's definitely gonna hurt. I don't know what arm. I don't know which nurse is gonna do it. I don't know how long it's gonna hurt for. What I definitely know is I'll be with you the whole time and we'll get through it.

• 1:03:04Speaker 03

  Right? And like, you're like, oh, okay, I got. Okay, we all got this now. Right? And like, I think that's what you're even saying. Like, I don't know. I'm your parent. Like, I'm gonna figure it out. And we're gonna figure it out together. And if it doesn't go well, we'll figure it out from there. But I don't know everything. And I think that's actually, I think that that's really confidence inspiring for anyone, definitely for a kid. Because now, if you're not scared to name what you don't know, they don't feel as scared of the unknown as well, because they at least feel like they have you to go through it with.

• 1:03:32Mayim Bialik?

  Jonathan, I'm gonna turn this over to you.

• 1:03:34Jonathan Cohen?

  Dr. Becky, why does my feel so alone inside all the time?

• 1:03:39Mayim Bialik?

  He's not just being facetious. There are those among us who have been through whatever we've been through with the genetics that we have and the chemistry that we have. And there's still a lot of guidance, you know, that I still feel I need. And yeah, I am kind of curious when you meet adults, you know, also who are kind of parenting through this. There was a book, Mothering Without a Map that many of us, you know, read. What do you, you know, what do you kind of offer, you know, to to parents like that? I don't want to say like, what's missing, but I obviously have been in therapy and I'm one of those people who's in psychoanalysis for 20 years, because there's a restructuring of like that scaffold that kind of keeps going.

• 1:04:17Speaker 03

  Well, you know, The thing that resonates with me most about this is parents always, because like, they're like, which of your workshops should I start with? This is what's going on with my kid. This is what, and then I always say the same thing. I go, the reparenting workshop. And they always say, no, sorry, my kid's hitting, like, or there's sleep issues. And I was like, yeah, yeah, the reparenting workshop.

• 1:04:35Mayim Bialik?

  The reparenting workshop?

• 1:04:37Speaker 03

  Reparenting workshop. And it's, it's really inspired by, I mean, you will seriously love Richard Schwartz's Internal Family System book. Sorry, I thought I was gonna say my workshop. I actually think you'd love my workshop, but I think.

• 1:04:50Mayim Bialik?

  Do you hold me? Can you hug me?

• 1:04:53Speaker 03

  Basically, basically, I do, in a whole process. It's, it's, I think my styles, I do like synthesize a lot of psychoanalytic thought, you know, attachment, internal family systems, body-based work. But then I do, I know that I translate it into like specific actions. Because to me, what some, you know, what sometimes is missing from even great therapy is like, we do actually have to do things. It doesn't have to be some like CBT exercise, but you actually do have to do things to give your body a different experience than it's had to put that knowledge or awareness or insight into action to change the circuits. Like, you actually have to make that link. And so you can spin in all the realization, insight doesn't bring change. It just doesn't. Insight can bring awareness, and if you know actions that are powerful, then that can lead to change, but you actually have to do different things.

• 1:05:38Speaker 03

  And so I think what's really different about my reparenting workshop is it adds deep as anything, but again, it's, it's simple language, but then it actually gives like real strategies around that rewiring. Janine Fisher's book, I don't know if you've ever read her book, is like just hugely helpful, too. Internal Family Systems, just to plug it, even though I'm like so not an IFS spokesperson, but it's all about developing new relationships with those parts so that they don't have to take such an extreme function anymore and can do other things. I could cry. I mean, like, I can't even tell you how many people in my community are like, I found an IFS therapist and in three sessions, I feel like I've made more progress than I have in like 10 years with my other therapist. It is so powerful. It just like speaks to what our body needs to hear.

• 1:06:21Speaker 03

  And that's definitely like very influential. So I think, I don't know the exact reasons. I don't, I wouldn't presume, but I have a feeling that like this idea of like, am I actually taking action to restructure the relationships inside me so that I can respond differently to the events outside me?

• 1:06:38Mayim Bialik?

  I'm always curious about this. How'd you get the way you are? Are your parents both, are they artistic? Are they academic? Where do you come from?

• 1:06:46Speaker 03

  I had like two, like, you know, I think at the core of it, my parents like always made, always looked at me like I was a good kid, having a hard time when I was having a hard time. I think that did profound things for me. I think I felt very safe with them. My mom is the most nonjudgmental human being I've ever met, deeply curious about why people are the way they are. I don't, I feel like what I had to really work on my own was getting out of kind of the, the good girl, people pleasing role and, you know, I've really worked on like setting my own boundaries and I feel like that's a huge part of who I am now. That was, you know, therapy and, and other things. But my parents, I felt like, you know, always saw the story underneath, you know, my, my struggle and, you know, were deeply interested, my mom especially, my mom especially, in like feelings and internal states.

• 1:07:29Mayim Bialik?

  Do you have siblings?

• 1:07:30Speaker 03

  Yes, I have an older brother. He's three years older and I have a sister who's five years younger.

• 1:07:34Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, you're the middle child.

• 1:07:36Speaker 03

  I'm the middle.

• 1:07:36Mayim Bialik?

  It all makes sense now.

• 1:07:37Speaker 03

  Not official because there's a big gap.

• 1:07:38Mayim Bialik?

  Right, right.

• 1:07:39Speaker 03

  I am.

• 1:07:39Mayim Bialik?

  Fascinating. Tell people where they can go for all things Dr. Becky Kennedy.

• 1:07:45Speaker 03

  I'd say for all things Good Inside because I really do think that the, the power of like all the stuff that's happened and, and the platform and the book is, I really mean it's like, it doesn't feel like mine. It feels like this has like ignited other things in people that they then spread to other people. It's like the best part. So goodinside.com is, you know, the easiest place to go. From there, you can find my podcast, you can find our weekly email and you can find what I'm most proud of really, which is my, this whole platform, which gives people truly like a Netflix style, um, digital library with short content, workshops, scripts, the whole thing and a community that's global. It's like in over 30 countries already. It's like the most amazing, nonjudgmental, supportive, knowledgeable parents and we've trained.

• 1:08:31Speaker 03

  Parenting coaches and other specialists, occupational therapists, cross-cultural psychologists, couples therapists in the Good Inside approach. So you have like so many expert resources there.

• 1:08:42Mayim Bialik?

  I also just want to mention, even if you have a child with special needs, if you have a child on the spectrum, if you have a child with behavioral problems, the concepts of what you talk about are absolutely true. The tools may be different. The methods may be different. Some of the language may be different. But this is not elitist. This is not just for a certain type of kid or a certain type of parent. This is information that should be available to parents of every socioeconomic background, in every neighborhood. Like this, it's very, very basic, wonderful, complicated and very simple stuff. It has been such a pleasure to talk to you. And really, from the bottom of my heart, and I speak for Jonathan as well,

• 1:09:26Mayim Bialik?

  for you to put this out in a mainstream forum is something we have waited for, you know, and that did not exist. And it's really, I just, I wish you only good things. I'm sure your kids give you hard days. I'm sure you have bad days. Like, you're very much a human person. But this knowledge that you are spreading is such a gift to the generation of parents that are having access to it. And you're just, you're frickin' amazing. Thank you so much.

• 1:09:54Speaker 03

  Thank you. Thank you so much.

• 1:09:58Jonathan Cohen?

  Here's one thing we didn't get to talk to her about. It's one of her Instagram posts. When your child says, "Look what I made", instead of saying, "That's awesome", try, "Wow, how did you think to make that?" There's many ways that we cut off the conversation with a kid and we don't get access to a lot of magical thinking that's happening inside of their head. And I don't mean magical, like fantastical or strange. I mean like... There's a huge process that's going on in their brains that if we open up the space to allow them to communicate, like, you don't know where that question is going to lead.

• 1:10:38Jonathan Cohen?

  And the times where we can slow down enough to not, again, assert a judgment or a closed statement, not that's like, "Good job, buddy. Okay, we're going over here," and like, slow down enough to open up the conversation, like, they fill it with these, like, unbelievable insights and ways that we get a window into their, how their mind is operating.

• 1:11:04Mayim Bialik?

  So, yes and, I'm just gonna be super honest, a lot of people either don't want to slow down, or will not slow down.

• 1:11:10Jonathan Cohen?

  The way I see the opportunity is that, just have an open-ended statement or question, "Oh, what can you tell me about that?"

• 1:11:20Mayim Bialik?

  Or like, "What was your choice of color here?" That's what my friend Carrie, who runs a preschool, she said that's what she asks. "What were you trying to do with this color here? Tell me about that," right?

• 1:11:28Jonathan Cohen?

  All of a sudden, we're all art critics, not critics, we're all art historians wanting to know about the process of how they came to that decision.

• 1:11:37Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, and the fact is, it is very, very hard to find the time for a lot of those interactions, and especially if you're a working parent, you literally are getting your child for dinner, homework, and bedtime. Three of the hardest times of day, if you're a teenager especially. Like, that's when many of us are parenting our kids.

• 1:11:56Jonathan Cohen?

  Sometimes it's just the language. If you have those phrases ready on the go, it's not that you're taking any more time. You're probably sitting in the car, driving your kid home anyway, and so that time will be spent either in silence, or that time is going to be spent cooking dinner together, and they're showing you the thing, and you're having a conversation. It's filling the dead space, and what you're doing is that you're actually building a more rich and connected emotional bond with the child, and so all of the transitions and hard stuff will be easier because you're doing that. I do think it's about having the phrases ready.

• 1:12:36Mayim Bialik?

  Totally. And what this made me think of, when you talk about that, and this is, people... People who cook with their children have a lot to say about it.

• 1:12:46Jonathan Cohen?

  Oh, big time.

• 1:12:47Mayim Bialik?

  If you can start early and get them into that, it is so, you learn so many fascinating things about your children when you cook with them. Jonathan, this has been a really special conversation to get to have with you and with Dr. Becky. You and I met when our kids were three.

• 1:13:01Jonathan Cohen?

  That's true. If people want to give us a little glimpse into their best lines that they use with their child to facilitate a deeper conversation.

• 1:13:11Mayim Bialik?

  Or that your parents have used with you. You don't have to be a parent to go here.

• 1:13:15Jonathan Cohen?

  Or that you would want to use with even a kid or a friend, because we saw that it's not just parenting.

• 1:13:23Mayim Bialik?

  And we would love to hear what you thought of Dr. Becky. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time.