Part Two: Former CIA Spies on America’s Decline, The Potential of WW3, & What’s Really Happening Behind the Scenes in the US Government

What’s REALLY Going On Behind the Scenes of the CIA, the Media, and the U. S. Government? On Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown, former CIA agents and intelligence officers Andrew & Jihi Bustamante (creators of the EverydaySpy podcast, authors of Shadow Cell: An Insider Account of America’s New Spy War & popular guests on Diary of a CEO & The Joe Rogan Experience) pull back the curtain in this explosive, no-holds-barred conversation. From the moment you marry a spy (can you ever truly trust your partner?) to the shocking 4 categories of lies the CIA teaches—Mayim & Jonathan dive deep into the secretive world of espionage, national security, and the collapse of trust in modern institutions. Andrew and Jihi break down the shrinking middle class caused by American politics post-Trump, what it means for our future, whether the U. S. is moving closer to dictatorship (and if so, can we stop it?), and why the wealthy elite are leaving the U. S. (and which countries they’re fleeing to). These whistleblowers expose what the CIA doesn’t want you to know: - The 4 categories of lies every CIA officer is trained to tell - The agency’s current use of psychics and Cold War-era remote viewing programs - The loneliness and psychological toll of living a covert life - How the news & media is manipulated—and why even “trusted” outlets are failing us - Post-Trump politics: is the U. S. sliding toward dictatorship or already in it? - Why wealthy elites are fleeing America (and where they’re going) - The global fallout if a U. S. president is jailed, and what it means for our standing - The CIA’s take on Israel, rising global conflicts, and the risk of world war - How AI is dehumanizing warfare and reshaping the battlefield - Why Epstein’s case continues to expose cracks in our institutions Andrew and Jihi also reveal how influence, persuasion, and dialogue can still be used productively—even in a fractured society. From Venezuela’s collapse as a warning sign to the everyday challenge of separating real news from propaganda, this is more than an interview—it’s a wake-up call. Get the truth behind headlines, corruption, and the secret machinery of the U. S. government & change the way you see everything! Find your Spy Superpower: ⁠https://yt.everydayspy.com/4mjywCV⁠ https://yt.everydayspy.com/4mjywCV Andrew & Jihi Bustamante's book, Shadow Cell: ⁠https://geni.us/ShadowCellBook⁠ https://geni.us/ShadowCellBook Andrew Bustamante's YouTube Channel: ⁠https://youtube.com/@Andrew-Bustamante⁠ https://youtube.com/@Andrew-Bustamante Explore Spy School: ⁠https://everydayspy.com/⁠ https://everydayspy.com/ Andrew Bustamante's Podcast: ⁠https://youtube.com/@EverydaySpyPodcast⁠ https://youtube.com/@EverydaySpyPodcast Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Iain Bialik.

• 0:05Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 0:06Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to part two of our conversation with everyday spy Andy Bustamante and Jihi Bustamante, authors of Shadow Cell: An Insider Account of America's New Spy War. We spoke to Andrew Bustamante a bit over a year ago on the podcast, but this time we have him and his wife, both former CIA operatives, in the studio. We're going to talk about their book, but in part two, we get into some very heavy-hitting questions about World War III, about Iran, about complacency as the biggest problem facing the United States, and ways to titrate your energy and your time and your attention so that you're functioning optimally, something that Jihi talks about learning from Andy as part of their journey into the CIA.

• 0:51Jonathan Cohen?

  We also talk about practical ways to influence people, how to use dialogue to bridge the gap and to get your points across to people that you want to have influence over, how to ensure that you're constantly growing, learning, otherwise you're dying, and how to ensure that you're getting the real news, not just what the social media algorithms are promoting.

• 1:16Mayim Bialik?

  And we really hope you enjoy part two of our conversation with Andrew and Jihi Bustamante.

• 1:24Jonathan Cohen?

  Are we on the verge or already moving into a third world war? I want your opinion on this, because I know my opinion on this.

• 1:35Speaker 02

  I would say no. Do I think China's going to take Taiwan? Yes. Do I think Russia's and Ukraine is going to end up the way everybody would like it to? No. But the world war where we are all involved? No, I don't think so. I think there are certain countries that will take other countries. But I think, especially right now, I don't think, I don't think the, the former allies will get involved the way they did in World War II.

• 2:02Speaker 03

  And I would agree with Jihi's answer in terms of traditional World War conceptual thinking. People think of a world war as Axis and Allies. People think of it like World War I and World War II.

• 2:12Jonathan Cohen?

  I mean, we're done with trench warfare, we would hope, although-

• 2:15Speaker 03

  Well, not at all. It's in Ukraine, alive and well in Ukraine.

• 2:17Jonathan Cohen?

  But that's what I thought, you know-

• 2:18Speaker 03

  Isn't that crazy?

• 2:19Jonathan Cohen?

  And, and the reason, the reason I'm asking is because I think a lot of people, myself included, thought we were sort of beyond these hot wars with trench warfare and sort of some of the, what feels almost medieval that you see only in World War II movies. And yet, there have been these hotspots that have sprung up around the world that make people feel like we're increasingly unstable.

• 2:41Speaker 03

  So, I'm of the opinion that World War III will look nothing like World War II. And, that we are very likely in the early stages, if not in full out, World War III as it is now.

• 2:51Jonathan Cohen?

  This is a divide in the couple.

• 2:53Speaker 03

  Correct. This is where we see it differently. And that's because, I, I don't actually know why that is. Jihi just has a very, for, for all the villainy that lives inside her-

• 3:04Speaker 02

  I still have hope.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  She still has hope. And I'm just, I'm absolutely-

• 3:08Mayim Bialik?

  Well, actually, I'd like to know how each half of this couple interpreted Iran. That was not a fun week. You know, with the US, I don't know, knee deep-

• 3:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:22Mayim Bialik?

  You know, in Iran. So what happened, what was dinner like that week in your house?

• 3:29Speaker 02

  I know that I can't affect any of what's going on in the world right now. And so, I usually take things from the perspective of, this is really interesting. And then I ask Andy his opinion. So Andy gets his opinion asked a lot. But, but I, I, the interesting things I thought was, I thought it was really dangerous for, for both Israel and, and the United States because I feel like Iran, I, I feel like we were underestimating what Iran might do. And, and I don't think that it's over. I think that Iran plays a long game, because it can. And it worries me now what the consequences might be for Israel in the future.

• 4:13Speaker 03

  It was a, it was an interesting day for us because I think we were surprised to see that the United States would send American troops into harms way in Iran.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Oh, I wasn't surprised.

• 4:27Mayim Bialik?

  Also done without a larger conversation, I mean, that I think was also very surprising.

• 4:33Speaker 02

  Soon as Trump said, which was a week before, like, "We're thinking about it." I was like, "Oh, something's gonna bomb Iran," yeah.

• 4:39Speaker 03

  And, and I wasn't so sure at that point. What I, what I, I do think that what Ghee is saying is the most interesting piece of it is that the bombing of Iran was less interesting actually than the manipulation of the American president. And that was what was so powerful. Because, and you've-

• 4:54Mayim Bialik?

  Well, he's easily manipulatable because when you have someone who is sensitive, who is volatile, who does not like to be humiliated-

• 5:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 5:02Mayim Bialik?

  And doesn't do well with international trash talking, which is the currency of Iran.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:08Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, it's a real, uh, that's like a firecracker in a barrel.

• 5:12Speaker 03

  And then to think that we did all that for questionable outcomes-

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:16Speaker 03

  Is tough. And that's, I think that's what we agree on for sure is just what actions are we taking right now that are really benefiting the American people? What actions are we taking? What expenses are we incurring that are actually making for a bigger, stronger American future for our children and for our children's children?

• 5:32Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, my favorite thing was that Sacha Baron Cohen just kept posting clips of the dictator. Because literally, the whole movie was playing out in real time. He just kept posting clips.

• 5:44Jonathan Cohen?

  I mean, it was a prophetic movie.

• 5:47Mayim Bialik?

  It was.

• 5:48Jonathan Cohen?

  Tell us about the divide in your perspective about World War III and how you see the future of war playing out.

• 5:55Speaker 03

  So, I think it's because, I think a lot of it's tied to the fact that I'm former military and Ghee is not. And from my experience in the military, what I've learned is that the military is a, is a giant brainwashing engine. And, once you're in it- The system is so effective at basically forcing you to believe or forcing you out. But the system is very powerful. So, once you're in it, everybody's hungry to use their skills. Everybody's hungry to fly their plane, drop their bombs, shoot their gun.

• 6:22Jonathan Cohen?

  You don't want to just wash the plane, you want to fly it.

• 6:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've heard people celebrate, "Take the fight to the enemy." And I'm just like, you know, there's other ways to resolve things besides taking the fight to the enemy. And especially when you're talking about, you know, lives being lost and...

• 6:39Mayim Bialik?

  That's what all those flame emojis are for on Signal. So that our government can be like, "Go get 'em, boys. Sorry, side note."

• 6:44Speaker 03

  But it's fair, but it's valid, right? And that's what we've become now. We've become so disconnected from what war really is. Because we've been riding the benefit of technology for so long, now we can just launch a drone. Even Ukraine now is launching drones. We're investing in drones. It just dehumanizes conflict, which makes us that much more eager to engage in conflict. What we don't realize is that on the back end of the conflict, there's all sorts of economic benefits that make it so that the powers that be want more conflict. They want to sell more guns, they want to do more bullying, and it's really, really difficult. So, what we've learned through the schools of military is that there's interstate war and intrastate war.

• 7:25Speaker 03

  Interstate war is when I go to war with you and you're a different national, like you're a sovereign nation. Interstate war is expensive. Interstate war creates political backlash, creates international backlash. It's difficult and costly and ugly to do what Russia did to Ukraine. Intra-state war, conflict that exists inside of a sovereign state, is much easier to manipulate. That's what you had in Libya, that's what you had in Syria. In some arguments, that's what you have inside Gaza Strip. You have a conflict inside of a country, and then those conflicts are so much easier to fund, to participate with a shadow hand, to capitalize on without putting your own troops and your own weapons at risk.

• 8:10Speaker 03

  So because of the shift in attitude at a geopolitical level, people want more intrastate war. Just like every venture capitalist is looking for the new high ROI business. Every global power competitor is looking for the next highest ROI intrastate conflict. Whether that's happening in Africa or South America, or whether it's happening in the Caribbean Islands, or whether it's happening here in the United States. They're looking for a place where a country is at war with itself, because then all you do is pour fuel on the fire and benefit from the outcome.

• 8:38Mayim Bialik?

  I just, first of all, I don't like this game we're playing. I don't like it. I don't like it at all. Because you know what I'm thinking about? The people that usually sit in these chairs. Are people talking about collective consciousness? And we're talking about that like God is overseeing everything and we're all just like sparkly light. And we're just like an embodiment. We're just a physical body having a spiritual experience is the goal.

• 9:02Jonathan Cohen?

  That's a lot of our episodes lately.

• 9:05Mayim Bialik?

  And it's like a lot of like, I almost died, but then God told me, come back so that I can save the world. So like, I like those games. And I like the games where it's like, we're all living in the matrix, but like, everybody just wants what's good. And like, even murderers are hurt. And so like, it's just, you know, like a liberal, open, loving consciousness. Like, there is no gender. We're all just beings.

• 9:27Jonathan Cohen?

  Orbs of light that are just happen to be in human suits.

• 9:30Mayim Bialik?

  I like that game of like, take lion's mane and you'll feel better.

• 9:36Speaker 03

  I think a lot of people like that game. Which is what makes it so easy.

• 9:39Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, I don't like this part of the matrix. Meaning like, I believe this is true. I also do believe like, this is all sort of like a projection and we're like, receiving all this information from the universe. But yeah, these are negative energies, not you. But you know, when we talk about these things, it's like, you know, you know, I believe that like, what is, you know, kind of like, subsuming all of this is sort of a spark of like goodness and holiness. And like, oh my gosh, we all exist and we have consciousness, right? And the notion that we've evolved as, you know, this species, you know, to be having these kinds of elaborate and complicated, you know, things. It's like, a lot of people want to check out from it.

• 10:22Mayim Bialik?

  Hence, drugs, alcohol, porn, you know, work, like whatever your drug is. So it's kind of, it's very interesting because I think, you know, for a lot of people, this is why people have stopped watching the news. You don't know what to believe. I mean, look, when I stopped reading the New York Times because I couldn't handle the conflict with truth that I often saw, it made my life a lot simpler because I was no longer sifting through and getting outraged and getting sick. And like, I get acid reflux if I read the news and scroll on Instagram, right? So it's like, yeah, so many people just want to like, check out from this because it feels

• 11:00Speaker 03

  The thing to remember is there are people who want you to check out. You've got to keep that in mind, too. Checking out is not taking

• 11:06Mayim Bialik?

  No, I can't even check out.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  No, I definitely think you should check out because I check out also. And then what I do is I just strategically read.

• 11:14Mayim Bialik?

  Check in.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  I just strategically check in. Like, I'll pull up AP like, once or twice a week and be like, is there anything big that I missed?

• 11:20Speaker 03

  When she's energized, when she's been able to put on her armor to put up with the bullets.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  When I have the mental capacity to do so. But I think that's something else that people need to remember is that when Andy talks about these big powers that are earning money off of war and starting wars, these aren't masses of people. These are governments, right? And the governments are being controlled by a small group of people. So the majority of people, I believe, because I'm a peace-living Buddhist, are good and have hope and don't want these things, right? They just want to raise their kids and to be able to feed them and clothe them and educate them and have a nice home for them. I think that's what most people want. Have their friends and their neighbors and everybody get along.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  So I think if the majority of people remember that it's the governments and certain, you know, economic powers that are making these bad decisions, these decisions that do not benefit us, you know, then they can retain the hope that humanity is good and that we can collectively change things. It might take time. It may take a lot of effort. But I mean, part of the reason we shouldn't completely check out is because it's up to us to make these changes. If we completely check out, they're all in power and they make the decisions that they want to.

• 12:42Jonathan Cohen?

  She's a very good balance for you.

• 12:45Mayim Bialik?

  She's an excellent balance.

• 12:46Jonathan Cohen?

  I mean, if you took her away, we would be cycling in war and destruction. And then I wonder, you get off camera and then I'm very concerned for your mental sanity. But then you can go back and connect with your beautiful wife and she's, Andrew, let's have some hope together.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 13:03Speaker 03

  And what's funny is, you know, the, it does go back and forth because there are hopeless moments for her too.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:08Speaker 03

  But I can't help but think of the experience of parents. And I don't know your children, but, but my children, I have one that is kind and hopeful and generous. And I have one that is not those things.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  Who will be a dictator if allowed.

• 13:28Speaker 03

  And when I think about the future, I have to protect one and I have to protect others from the other.

• 13:36Speaker 03

  When you look at the world, it's not that different from looking at the family. There are many, many people who need to be protected, who are kind, who are generous, who are open, who are sensitive. And there are a fewer group that you need to protect others from. That group of feisty, ambitious, ruthless people always go much farther in what they can accomplish than the group of sensitive people. Because the sensitive people need collective support, they need resources, they need patience. Whereas the feisty group will literally take almost nothing and just charge their way forward.

• 14:12Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and for those of us with sensitive children, we would say that those children also have the capacity to

• 14:17Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 14:18Mayim Bialik?

  influence others with their, you know, empathy, their intuitiveness, their connection to something larger that hopefully, you know, they can sort of bring down to us. I mean, you know, there's been people who have been saying this is the age of Aquarius, you know, for decades now. But many people believe there's a shift in consciousness. A lot of people saw COVID as sort of like a wake up call. So, you know, there's also, I think there's evolution on both sides, right?

• 14:44Speaker 03

  What I'm saying is just that the traditional way that we've watched geopolitics play out, there's a person who can influence you to open the door. And that takes time. And then there's a person who just breaks down the door. Or the person who just twists the doorknob, sees that it's unlocked and walks right through. And that has been the person that we have turned into the hero. Right? Our action movies, our dramas, our war movies, you name it, are all about bold, risk-taking, assertive people. So we've glorified that attitude and we've marginalized the sensitive, patient, influential person. We have to decide now, is that how we're gonna move forward?

• 15:26Jonathan Cohen?

  We all have to re-watch Aaron Brockovich.

• 15:30Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, what?

• 15:31Speaker 03

  That's a statement I never thought I'd hear.

• 15:33Mayim Bialik?

  I thought you were gonna name another delightful Julia Roberts movie. Or one of your Sandra Bullock rom-coms that you think will save us.

• 15:42Jonathan Cohen?

  She saw a problem. She took legal action. She pursued a way in order to protect people who needed protecting. No one believed her. She had a lot of resilience.

• 15:53Mayim Bialik?

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• 17:22Mayim Bialik?

  It's the best way to support our show.

• 17:24Jonathan Cohen?

  Gee, how do you see the evolution? You know, you talked about your parents and their background. Do you see it as a change in the collective conscience? And you know, sort of reframe it also is like if we talk about a lot of the power dynamics, profiting off of war and a few people in government especially, who need war in order to fuel this massive economic engine. And without it, there's a huge transition, right?

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:49Jonathan Cohen?

  Like without that, the people employed in those areas, there's a massive amount of displacement and change. Same is true in health. You know, there's a crazy map that went around recently that showed the number of people employed by state in healthcare and the change in the last 20 years and basically the increase. Now it's like the largest employer in almost every single state. And so you need sick people in order to employ all the people in healthcare. How do you see sort of the global war machine as it relates to what I, you know, for lack of a better word, would call a collective conscience that or consciousness that wants to live in a different way?

• 18:30Speaker 02

  I mean, I think, I think the biggest problem with, in particular with people in the United States is complacency. I think that we have just as a nation, as the population of the nation of the United States have become completely complacent. So I think there's lots of people out there who don't want the war machine, who don't want the violence and all of the negative things they're seeing happening, but they're too complacent to do anything about it. They just want to check out, they just want to scroll through Instagram, they just want to go have a drink with their friends, they don't want to think about it. And it's a shame because. Nothing will change that way. In fact, things will change, not the way that they want it to. And that's the route we're going down right now.

• 19:13Speaker 02

  And I think people just need to wake up and learn how to, I mean, to live life properly, you have to make an effort. You cannot coast through life, right? Life is full of change. Life is full of learning. You have to learn the skills of civil discourse. You have to learn how to get along with people who don't have the same opinions. You have to learn how to influence other people to try to get them to see your perspective.

• 19:39Speaker 03

  And that's a game. That's the game that Jihi was saying. It's a dirty, trick, treacherous, tricky game, but it's a game. Whether you want to influence your kids to brush their teeth, or whether you want to influence your in-laws to vote for a different candidate, you have to understand there's a recipe for influence, and there's a process for influence, and you might feel sticky in the process, but if it gets you the outcome that you're trying to achieve, is it really dirty at all?

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Influence doesn't equal bad, right? Like, if you influence your children to brush their teeth, that's not bad. I think it's oppressive. My daughter would say so, too.

• 20:14Jonathan Cohen?

  So, practical takeaways for people who don't want to check out but don't know where to start. What are some ways that they can learn the subtle art of influence, or the not-so-subtle art?

• 20:24Speaker 02

  So, I think the first thing that people can work on is just dialogue. There's so much done with these short messages over Instagram, or Facebook, or texting. People don't actually have conversations anymore, so more in-person conversations. Pick a topic. Discuss.

• 20:43Speaker 03

  Disagree.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  Disagree. Use your phone to look up facts instead of scrolling through your Facebook while, you know, while you're sitting with your friends. I mean, I think step number one is practice dialogue in person with another human being.

• 20:57Speaker 03

  A big part of the reason Jihi and I created the business that we run is because... These skills didn't exist. There's no place to go to learn dialogue. I would argue the vast majority of people don't even know the definition of dialogue. How it's different than a conversation. How it's different than an explanation, right? Because dialogue is the exchange of ideas. So you can't just sit there and be spoken to and call that a dialogue. Even though that's what many, you know, college professors tend to think they're doing is having it. "We're gonna have a dialogue here today, folks." No, you're gonna talk to a classroom of 150 people and they're not gonna talk back and maybe you'll get five questions about what you're saying. Not an exchange of new ideas. And dialogue is very powerful because in a proper dialogue,

• 21:40Speaker 03

  dialogue creates a sense of relationship between two people. When I hear your position on something and you hear my position on something, even if we disagree, we both feel heard. That triggers a sense of connection in our brain, that triggers the opening for persuasion and influence. You can't persuade or influence people without that opening. The way that we see all this mass propaganda take over like you talk about and the way that we see this mass influence take hold is because people are pulling on emotional triggers, which is why you create these echo chambers of the far left and the far right. You already know what words will trigger emotions and then you can just feed in whatever you wanna feed in next once you have that person triggered.

• 22:18Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and I think that also sort of leads to, you know, your social media is not where you should be getting news.

• 22:25Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:25Mayim Bialik?

  No.

• 22:26Speaker 03

  And the amount of people who do it is phenomenal.

• 22:29Mayim Bialik?

  I have teenagers, so I kind of dismissed it as like, oh, well, you know, when I was that age, I mean, look, I was reading the newspaper. I was learning to read the newspaper and like, that was a thing that I wouldn't, you know, necessarily encourage my kids to do. But I think, like, what if you did not listen to the news that was on social media? Because also, and there's some really fascinating studies about this, the proportion of perspectives that are reflected on social media is often driven by bots. It's often driven by countries like Qatar. So, you know, what you're actually seeing is not even a proportional representation of even what most people are thinking about or needing to learn about. So I love this notion of also, like, give up.

• 23:13Mayim Bialik?

  The notion of getting news from social media and some of those legacy media places that you used to rely on, guess what? They're not impartial and if you want to read what your perspective is, great, go those places. But if you want to read what an actual kind of reflection of perspectives is, you do have to seek out, like you said, places like AP News, places that are kind of reporting from a more old school news reporting place. We spoke to Connie Chung here and I remember that was one of our questions and she was saying that like, even during Watergate, it didn't matter if you were a Republican or if you were a Democrat, you saw what was happening and this is not okay. We do not tap phone, like all those things.

• 23:57Mayim Bialik?

  But it was so interesting because now it feels like I don't even know how reporters are supposed to report because of the larger, you know, so I think that's also an important kind of practical tip.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and reading more than one news source. I would never advocate for somebody to just rely on one news source, you have to have multiple. So if you want the New York Times, fine, but also read Reuters or AP News. And then also, I would even suggest, read something that's a conservative news source.

• 24:23Mayim Bialik?

  You can be uncomfortable without it being triggering.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:28Mayim Bialik?

  You can be mad without it being PTSD, right? Like, what does it feel like to learn to tolerate? And look, I reached a certain point where it's like, I do not need to talk to people about X, Y, or Z. So like, we all have those points, but generally speaking, if you're learning about the economy, if you're learning about what's going on in government, you get to learn how to tolerate being uncomfortable and saying, they have their reasons, but I'm not just going to siphon it off and be like, I'm blocking you from my feed.

• 24:56Jonathan Cohen?

  I mean, even on this podcast, it's interesting, we get comments of, of listeners who are like, I don't agree with every guest. Great. Don't agree with every guest. That doesn't mean that you should listen to every episode necessarily.

• 25:09Mayim Bialik?

  I don't agree with Jonathan most of the time.

• 25:12Jonathan Cohen?

  But but I think it's important to be able to hear at least part of someone's perspective and not just be like, no, you're wrong. That only divides us. We don't get anywhere in that.

• 25:24Speaker 03

  You don't grow.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:25Speaker 03

  And that's the thing that Gigi and I, I mean, I'm I'm less worried about division and more worried about growth. Because I had a very wise CIA friend who once told me, if you're not growing, you're dying. And I I didn't really understood, I didn't understand that at the time, but I understand it much better as I get older. Because when you stop growing, when you become complacent, when you just coast. I mean.

• 25:49Jonathan Cohen?

  Or don't take in any new ideas and just say, this is my perspective. I mean, that's very hard because, you know, everyone also talks about that in science. They're like, this is the science, but science is constantly changing and evolving and learning new things.

• 26:01Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Yes, so same thing with dialogue. If you can't take in other people's perspectives and understand where other people are coming from, how can you have any new ideas about how to get better?

• 26:12Jonathan Cohen?

  How does that relate, though, to people who may be like so far on a spectrum as to be somewhat radical? Or like people who are like, they are drinking the blood of children. Like, where where does it, where does it end?

• 26:25Speaker 03

  That becomes a personal question about how much, what the level of effort is that you want to put into it.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:30Speaker 03

  And if it was my child that was drinking the blood of children, there I would have a lot more like effort that I'd be willing to put into it.

• 26:38Jonathan Cohen?

  Because you want to connect, you don't want to, you don't want to sever the connection.

• 26:40Speaker 03

  But what it is, is I mean, there's there are people that you just have to. We kind of, again, I'm the very pragmatic one. There are either productive or destructive relationships that you're in at any given time. And you want to continue to contribute to productive relationships because they are productive. Productive to who? Productive to you. But then there are also destructive relationships. And every every ounce of effort that you put into a destructive relationship is destructive to who? To you. So if you could take back your resources from all the destructive relationships and put them into the productive relationships, where would you go? Stop being obligated to your mom. Stop answering the phone when your sister's calling to complain. Stop worrying about your old college friend who has no hope. Like, stop dealing with these people. You're only dealing with them because you feel like you have to.

• 27:25Speaker 03

  You're a bad person if you ignore them. That's not how, that's not how I was trained to see it at all. How I was trained to see it is you have a certain number of gold coins in your purse. And for every gold coin you put into a destructive relationship, you lose the return on investment.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Oh, my. Therapy with Andy.

• 27:42Mayim Bialik?

  Now he sounds like all the mystics, right? He sounds like every transcendental psilocybin tripper we've had. Like, "Don't give away your energy, man. Like, keep it for yourself."

• 27:52Jonathan Cohen?

  You have to prioritize yourself.

• 27:54Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 27:55Jonathan Cohen?

  He has the hair of a mystic. He should be able to speak like that.

• 28:01Jonathan Cohen?

  One day. I mean, what's interesting is that I think a lot of men speak like this. And we know that from therapists, female therapists, they also speak like this. But what we've heard, and Mayim talks about, is that women are conditioned sometimes to not have that perspective, to be much more accommodating, to give up their own wants and desires, to be supportive.

• 28:24Mayim Bialik?

  I don't know if it's that a lot of men say that. I think a lot of men, in many cases, and you can tell me if you disagree, a lot of men have the liberty to be able to, I don't want to say abdicate, but to be able to delegate emotional labor to women, because we tend to culturally be expected to do that, especially if you come from a traditional or patriarchal society, or culture, or religion. It's really, you know, kind of built in. So, yeah, we're the ones who get the autoimmune disorders. We're the ones, you know, who are kind of like bearing the brunt of a lot of that, and yeah.

• 28:59Jonathan Cohen?

  Well, Gheed, did you share his gold coins, limiting your gold coin expenditure model?

• 29:05Speaker 02

  I had to learn that, because I was raised in a patriarchal household where the women took on everything. And you were expected to hold space for everybody, where Andy can just literally walk away from a conversation, and nobody says anything. I mean, and whether anybody would have said anything or not, I would have felt guilty about it, because of the way I was raised. So, over time, I was in a bad relationship, and it was after that that I learned, you cannot change everybody. That maybe there's a person that can change another person, but that's not necessarily you, and you can walk away.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  And so it took me seven years, and a lot of debt, and an anxiety disorder, to learn that you only have a certain number of coins, and you need to invest those wisely.

• 29:55Jonathan Cohen?

  And now nobody gets Gheed's coins.

• 29:57Speaker 03

  It's hilarious because she just avoids everybody. Even like, even the people she really, really loves. She's like, "I just don't want to spend that coin now."

• 30:06Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 30:06Jonathan Cohen?

  Tell us a little bit about the process to get there. You mentioned an anxiety disorder.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:11Jonathan Cohen?

  Tell us about the process.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I was, um, I was diagnosed with anxiety disorder like the second week I was at the CIA.

• 30:19Mayim Bialik?

  This is actually a phenomenal story.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:21Mayim Bialik?

  She was a copious vomiter.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was terrible.

• 30:24Jonathan Cohen?

  No connection to...

• 30:25Mayim Bialik?

  Like, didn't, like, was nervous to eat on their first date? Because she might have thrown up all over him.

• 30:30Jonathan Cohen?

  From anxiety?

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Yes, from anxiety. Like, our first kiss, he was like, "You're not gonna throw up on me, are you?"

• 30:36Mayim Bialik?

  How else do you know you really like someone?

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 30:39Jonathan Cohen?

  Okay, well, hold on one second.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:43Jonathan Cohen?

  You're going into a job...

• 30:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:45Jonathan Cohen?

  That requires an enormous level of stress, secrets, and they didn't sort of say, "Maybe this isn't constitutionally appropriate for you?"

• 30:54Speaker 02

  So, none of us knew because I was, other than my physical symptoms, I was handling it well. So, it was very functional.

• 31:01Mayim Bialik?

  Also, this was a while ago. People weren't so into talking about these things.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  No. And even with all, like, the psychological batteries that they give you, and I talked to a psychologist and all of that, like, none of it came up because I didn't know I had it. So, I'd been, I'd ended my relationship, and six months after the end of that relationship, I was sick. But I couldn't figure out what it was. I just knew, like, I was having trouble keeping food down, so I had all these tests done. Nothing came up, so I started my new job. And then it was when Andy asked me out on a date, and he called to pick me up, and I was like, "I can't go." And he was like, "Oh, we could just get coffee." I was like, "I can't." And then I went and threw up, and I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I have an anxiety disorder." So, I diagnosed myself. I go to my doctor, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense."

• 31:46Speaker 02

  So, then I went to the agency because I ended up in the ER because I couldn't hold food down. I just wasn't...

• 31:52Jonathan Cohen?

  So, couldn't eat at all?

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Couldn't eat, couldn't drink, I just was throwing up all the time.

• 31:56Mayim Bialik?

  Andy's love makes people want to die.

• 32:00Mayim Bialik?

  I'll just waste away to nothing because of his love.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 32:04Speaker 03

  It was really hard at the time for me too. I was like, this is a bad sign.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  I know, poor guy.

• 32:09Speaker 03

  A bad sign.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  But, you know, I missed a few days of work and I didn't have a phone number to call. And so I was like, well, security is gonna find me no matter what. Like, you can't just disappear from the CIA. So finally, the HR lady calls me and I tell her, and I'm, I think I'm done. I'm like, just like you said, there's no way CIA is gonna keep me on with an anxiety disorder. And immediately, they were like, you can see our in-house psychologist. She'll hook you up with an outside therapist who's cleared, who knows where you work. And we'll make, we'll put you on an easy assignment. We'll make space for you to go to your therapy appointments twice a week. And I was like, oh, amazing.

• 32:42Jonathan Cohen?

  I mean, they trained you, so they don't wanna lose you, because they put all this money and time into getting you there.

• 32:48Mayim Bialik?

  I don't know, people, that makes me nervous, though.

• 32:50Speaker 03

  When they see...

• 32:51Mayim Bialik?

  Because then you're being sent to, you're being sent to places all over the world in life-threatening situations.

• 32:57Speaker 02

  Every time I went overseas, I had to go talk to a psychiatrist before I left, to make sure that I was ready.

• 33:04Jonathan Cohen?

  Every, before every podcast, we have a little consult.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:11Speaker 03

  CIA sees it as a benefit, a benefit professionally and a benefit organizationally to them, to have people with high anxiety. Those are the people who are going to identify a risk before the risk is present.

• 33:22Mayim Bialik?

  Stop it.

• 33:23Speaker 03

  Those are the people who are going to marry the job. Those are the people who will not say no, when you're asked to go do something like we were asked to do for Shadow Cell.

• 33:30Mayim Bialik?

  My anxiety just got me this podcast. I think it's a work for the CIA, it'd be a secret agent.

• 33:36Jonathan Cohen?

  So you get this, you get the diagnosis, you're now getting treatment.

• 33:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:42Jonathan Cohen?

  Then what happens?

• 33:44Speaker 02

  So I just did all the things that you were supposed to do. You know, I, I made sure I, I was having, I couldn't sleep. So, you know, I started taking medication for like all the GI issues that I had that were caused by the anxiety. I started trying to put weight back on, I started exercising, I...

• 34:02Speaker 03

  Wasn't dating?

• 34:03Speaker 02

  Wasn't dating. I avoided Andy like the plague for like two months. We worked on the same floor. And I was like, I would not go by where I thought his office was, until one day, we ended up in an all-hands meeting. So like, the whole floor was there. And I couldn't avoid him, and I thought, oh, I gotta say something. Because up until then, I'd been, every time I tried to write him like an I'm sorry email, I would wanna go throw up. So, there was nothing.

• 34:26Jonathan Cohen?

  That's how you know it's love.

• 34:29Jonathan Cohen?

  Butterflies are next level with these two.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Yes, so at the all hands, it was so quick. I didn't have time to get anxious, so I was like, I'm really sorry. And then he was very kind to me.

• 34:39Mayim Bialik?

  He's like, I want that wounded bird.

• 34:43Speaker 03

  It was quite the opposite.

• 34:44Mayim Bialik?

  She can't fly away, she's holding out one functioning wing.

• 34:46Speaker 03

  So women's perspectives aside, let's talk about the men's perspective for a second.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  Poor Andy.

• 34:53Speaker 03

  Because when a girl completely avoids you in the workplace, immediately you're like, oh shit, am I gonna get reported for HR? Am I about to get reported for sexual harassment? Because I called her and said, do you want me to pick you up? And she said, no. And then I kind of pushed and I was like, do you want to just do tea or coffee? And did she see that as like an affront? And I was like, oh shit, I'm waiting for the day that I get called in by my supervisor and handed like a letter that says you've been accused of sexual harassment. And I'm just like, oh, and especially at the time, when that kind of stuff was really ill-defined and nobody knew what to expect. So for two months, I was terrified.

• 35:27Jonathan Cohen?

  Both of you are suffering with massive amounts of anxiety. It's contagious. How do you go from that to learning not to give your coins away?

• 35:36Speaker 02

  So Andy was really helpful because Andy kind of doesn't give a shit about other people. So.

• 35:47Speaker 03

  It's a glowing review for me today.

• 35:50Jonathan Cohen?

  You should bring her on all your podcasts.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  So he was really helpful in helping me heal and, you know, being somebody I could really talk to and be there for. But he also was, he helped me grow as a person. He was this great model for me in how to be confident in yourself and stand your ground. And you don't have to feel obligated. That was something we had a lot of conversations about because I come from a family of obligation. And it's just very traditional, right? You were obligated to do certain things as part of the family. And he was like, you don't have to do that.

• 36:26Mayim Bialik?

  Like suffer and be miserable.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, show up to everything and be involved in every, you know, everybody's conversation.

• 36:32Jonathan Cohen?

  So you knew, I would guess, you knew what people expected of you before it was ever spoken.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. And you would go above and beyond, just in case.

• 36:43Jonathan Cohen?

  Because you knew if you said no to this person, that this is gonna be their reaction and this, and so anytime anyone is asking anything of you, you're immediately going into preventative.

• 36:52Mayim Bialik?

  Jonathan, think about what it's like when you've been at like, formal family meals at my house, where like, the women are never sit.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:59Mayim Bialik?

  They never sit, and we serve the man first. And like, that's literally, it's what we're trained for. And when we're not like, cooking and serving, we're cleaning up or making sure the kids are okay. Like, that's what it's like. It's so funny that they have to ask. It's just like, pre-anticipate everyone's needs and anxiety. Keep this one away from that one. Don't serve him a second drink because he's gonna get weird, right?

• 37:19Jonathan Cohen?

  No, come on. This is not only a female condition. This is a condition of anyone who has a high level of scanning sensitivity. I had to work very hard to get my parents' expectations out of my head, especially in my early twenties and thirties. Because I knew exactly what they wanted. And I knew if I said no to them, this is gonna be the response, and they're gonna think that I'm saying this. So I think a lot of people can relate to this. So you're growing and changing, but you know, can you tell us a bit about the process of, you know, do you start to then identify when the should is happening, or when you start using that anticipatory quality to, to act? And are you sort of, you know,

• 37:59Jonathan Cohen?

  I guess, practical CBT, just

• 38:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:02Jonathan Cohen?

  expanding the time between the stimulus and response?

• 38:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I started saying, I started practicing saying no more often. And in the beginning, that really looked like me saying yes, and then calling back to say, not, not calling back to say no, that's giving myself too much credit. But calling, saying yes. And then, yeah, and then sending a text with some kind of lame excuse to get out of it. That's how it started. And it was very embarrassing for me because I didn't like doing that. But over time, as I felt the benefits of having my own time and having my own life back, and not having to do things that I felt obligated to do, that positive reinforcement started helping me to be like, you know what, I can't. And, and I would still make up these lame excuses because I

• 38:46Speaker 02

  Still felt guilty, but over the years, I mean, that's, it's been, I've known you

• 38:51Speaker 03

  As long as you've been married.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Seventeen years now, yeah. So, over seventeen years, I am now at a point where I can say, I don't want to do that.

• 38:58Speaker 03

  And I also, I mean, I want to give Ghee credit where credit is due, but I also want to make sure that practically, what she, what she has done is, she's taken a hammer instead of a scalpel. And she's just, she's, momentum, momentum was at the core of it all. Once she saw the benefit of saying no, once or twice, she kind of got hooked. She got hooked on

• 39:19Jonathan Cohen?

  There's a rush.

• 39:20Speaker 03

  On the better sleep, additional reading time, right? House projects that she's been putting off, and she just got hooked on it, and then all of a sudden, everybody was no. And then all of a sudden, she just stopped taking phone calls, and then she stopped checking emails, and then she was just like

• 39:34Speaker 02

  Then she moved out of the house. I wish.

• 39:38Speaker 03

  There's, there's like an element of it that is, that I, I would never claim is helpful or healthy, that we're still working through, where I'm just kind of like, you know, you do still have to live in the same house as the kids. Cause we've had the conversation about a second apartment, where she can go stay at the apartment, and the apartment can also be our office at the same time, and then I have to like

• 39:56Speaker 02

  I like that idea. I can come meet her for tea, she and I can have ladies time.

• 40:01Jonathan Cohen?

  No, she's gonna say no, she won't answer the door.

• 40:05Speaker 03

  But that's, that's where we kind of are now, and, and when I have to pick between the two, for sure I'll pick this a hundred percent of the time, because she always has time for the people that she truly, truly cares about, which makes us feel really good, right? It makes the kids feel good, it makes me feel good, it makes our closest friends feel good, because I understand Ghee will make space for us, but she's not gonna make space for our problems. So we've learned not to give her, you don't, Ghee's not the one you go to to bitch. I'm the one you go to when you want to complain. Ghee's the one you go to when you want to have a hopeful conversation about something.

• 40:34Jonathan Cohen?

  It's actually quite profound, the amount of energy you get back. And profound how much energy gets drained when we're in those interactions that are that are not fueling us.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  Right, and I think right now, now I've gotten to a point where I have like a mental calculator of my energy for the day, like if I wake up tired, or if I wake up really energetic or whatever, like I have this mental calculator and then I look at my day or I, you know, and when people ask me to do things, I start to calculate, am I going to have enough energy at the end of the day, or am I going to burn myself? And I think that has been a really helpful tool for me along the way to not overextend, and I'm very careful not to overextend anymore.

• 41:13Speaker 03

  And just to to tie it to the book for just a second, this book was four years in the making, not because it took us so long to write it, but because CIA fought with us for three years about publishing this book. So I very much appreciate that you that you read it and that you enjoyed it because it took so much effort to get it across the finish line because we were fighting the US government to get it published. And this, the reason I bring it up is because it's such a strong example of Jihi's coins. She wrote the book, she participated in the writing of the book, she submitted it like she was supposed to, and then CIA came back and said, everything you wrote is classified.

• 41:49Jonathan Cohen?

  Wow.

• 41:49Speaker 03

  And once, once they said that, Jihi was like, I know that's bullshit, because we took great care to make sure that nothing in here

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:56Speaker 03

  validates violates sources or methods. And then CIA just came back with a with a blanket statement, everything's classified, you cannot publish. So Jihi went into her, she went into her hole. And she's like, I'm not going to participate anymore.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  I don't like conflict.

• 42:10Speaker 03

  CIA said no, and I don't want to deal with that because I don't want to think about jail time, I don't want to think about lawsuits, I don't want to think about all this stuff. I had the opposite effect, I was like, fuck that.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:19Speaker 03

  So then I started, I pushed back, I argued with them via email, I go up to CIA headquarters, I argue with them in person, I end up hiring an attorney and I'm like, this, somebody needs to look at this because I'm willing to publish this book without their approval, which will violate contractual agreements, but not, you know, like criminal agreements, etc., etc. So Jihi came back and she was like, I don't want you just to to cause all this ruckus. So she started getting a little bit more involved and a little bit more involved, and eventually she did. Everything that she thought was reasonable and fair, took it to CIA, and they came back and said, "No, it's classified." And then she, she lost it at that point. She was like, "This is bullshit." And then the full force of GHE came into effect, and she charged forward.

• 43:03Speaker 03

  And really, that's what got us across the finish line.

• 43:05Mayim Bialik?

  And I was like, "We're gonna sue you."

• 43:06Speaker 03

  Her willingness to sue CIA through a cutout attorney.

• 43:10Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 43:10Speaker 03

  When that news got to them, they were like, "You know what?"

• 43:13Jonathan Cohen?

  It's not so classified anymore.

• 43:15Mayim Bialik?

  No, and I think this is, um, um, a good kind of button, you know? You, I mean, while I enjoyed the backstory, which is, you know, kind of like, I mean, at least I have a pre-published edition where it talks about it, and from what you said, I will say, it doesn't suffer. Meaning, I don't know what all you would have liked to include, but I have to say that, um, I mean, it's fantastic, like, in terms of the arc that you go on. And I don't feel like you're missing, meaning, the story is still fleshed out enough, and I know that you had to create some fictional things, and I kept being like, "I wonder where this is, and I wonder what they mean." Um, but it doesn't suffer in terms of the arc of the, the story that you tell,

• 43:57Mayim Bialik?

  and all of the meat is there, so, um, I'm glad that you struggled through, kind of like getting it pushed through, but also, whatever was removed, it really, it's a fully fleshed out kind of experience that you take us on, so.

• 44:09Speaker 03

  Thank you, thank you, and thank you to my wife. Thank you for coming out of your hole in enough time to get it across the finish line. Because I, I would have just banged my head against a brick wall. She's the only one that knows how to actually break through that place.

• 44:22Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 44:22Jonathan Cohen?

  Well, thank you both for coming. Thank you for spending your coins with us today.

• 44:27Mayim Bialik?

  You're welcome.

• 44:28Jonathan Cohen?

  Really, it's a pleasure to speak with both of you.

• 44:30Mayim Bialik?

  And where can people find out more about all the other incredible, fun work that you do?

• 44:33Speaker 03

  Absolutely. You can find us at our website anytime, EverydaySpy.com. Uh, our book, Shadow Cell, is available everywhere that books are sold. So you'll see it in the airport, you can find it on Amazon, you can find it on Barnes & Noble, uh, any place in the US, the UK, all over the world. Uh, and on social media, you'll find us at EverydaySpy.

• 44:49Jonathan Cohen?

  The book will also be found anywhere you go next when you relocate.

• 44:52Speaker 03

  That's true, too.

• 44:57Mayim Bialik?

  So many new things. I'm back in my seat now.

• 45:00Jonathan Cohen?

  We changed everything for people who are watching. We were all in the wrong seats.

• 45:03Mayim Bialik?

  Two guests. You know what? It was actually very comfortable. This table was a good size for them to sit there. I did not enjoy sitting in your seat.

• 45:12Jonathan Cohen?

  What? Really?

• 45:13Mayim Bialik?

  No.

• 45:13Jonathan Cohen?

  Why?

• 45:14Mayim Bialik?

  Just felt weird.

• 45:15Jonathan Cohen?

  I liked sitting across from you because I could see your face.

• 45:18Mayim Bialik?

  I had to keep checking my hair. I had to keep turning. This way I can be like, oh, needs a fluff.

• 45:23Jonathan Cohen?

  You know what? I noticed you were a lot less distracted sitting in this seat.

• 45:26Mayim Bialik?

  Uh-oh.

• 45:27Jonathan Cohen?

  Because you are not looking at the monitor.

• 45:29Mayim Bialik?

  Uh-oh.

• 45:29Jonathan Cohen?

  Right now in your seat, you're basically just like front-facing them. Can we turn the TV off? Do we need that television?

• 45:36Mayim Bialik?

  No, we do. We need it.

• 45:37Jonathan Cohen?

  No, we don't.

• 45:38Mayim Bialik?

  Because knowing me, I'll have like one hair sticking out this way and I'll want to fix it.

• 45:43Jonathan Cohen?

  Follow us on Substack, MindBee Alex Breakdown on Substack because we're gonna do a behind-the-scenes of what the studio looks like and what I have to compete with in order to get...

• 45:53Mayim Bialik?

  It's pretty funny.

• 45:54Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 45:55Mayim Bialik?

  Um, I think I would have been good working for the CIA had I not been a famous television actress.

• 46:01Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, you would have a really hard time now.

• 46:03Mayim Bialik?

  Hedy Lamarr did it. She was a very famous starlet and she spied during World War II.

• 46:08Jonathan Cohen?

  Or it could be no one would suspect you because they would be like, oh, why is this TV actor in Barcelona

• 46:17Jonathan Cohen?

  investigating something that she has no business in? You'd be like, I'm just learning about a TV role that I'm playing.

• 46:24Mayim Bialik?

  Ooh, I could have such good cover. I could be like, I'm here doing press for my movie that doesn't exist. I'm doing a photo shoot.

• 46:31Jonathan Cohen?

  I got really excited about the idea of creating backstories for people and like we could build websites for the businesses that they run.

• 46:42Jonathan Cohen?

  The business that Mime runs is a miniature cat creating like... She creates little cat miniatures, cabbage pats for miniature cats.

• 46:52Mayim Bialik?

  It also didn't occur to me how much more elaborate because of computers and we didn't even get to talk about AI fully.

• 46:58Jonathan Cohen?

  You have to build a whole social media backstory.

• 47:00Mayim Bialik?

  Right. Like if someone's like, oh, my cover is that I'm a blah blah blah. They'd be like, well, you have to have a website and you have to have a this. And it really is...

• 47:07Jonathan Cohen?

  You have to have fake friends that AI can create for you?

• 47:10Mayim Bialik?

  It's creating many, many jobs. CIA people, they're just creating so many jobs.

• 47:17Jonathan Cohen?

  The whole world is talking about all the jobs that AI is gonna take away.

• 47:20Mayim Bialik?

  And we just added some.

• 47:22Jonathan Cohen?

  We just created some, that's important.

• 47:24Mayim Bialik?

  I have a friend, and we always suspected that her husband worked for the CIA.

• 47:29Jonathan Cohen?

  Oh, this is the friend that you were telling me he's a professor? But he's like constantly traveling around the world?

• 47:35Mayim Bialik?

  Strange places.

• 47:36Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm an accountant, I teach accounting, but somehow I'm in Dubai for like 80% of the year? And you're like, wait a second, you either have a second family, or you're a spy.

• 47:48Mayim Bialik?

  And he's very mild-mannered, he's a lovely man, he's very polite.

• 47:52Jonathan Cohen?

  He has three families, one in Morocco, one in Dubai.

• 47:54Mayim Bialik?

  And his wife is like, if he's getting paid, I would know. Like, I'm the family accountant, it's not coming in through regular accounts. I'm like, well, he's got secret offshore accounts. It's been a running joke for approximately 30 years.

• 48:12Jonathan Cohen?

  You never know what people are up to.

• 48:13Mayim Bialik?

  You never know what people are up to, trust no one, that's what she is.

• 48:17Jonathan Cohen?

  She doesn't even trust Andrew. Look, if people haven't listened to our first Andrew Bustamante episode...

• 48:22Mayim Bialik?

  He's much more mild-mannered with his wife in the room.

• 48:25Jonathan Cohen?

  Totally different guy.

• 48:26Mayim Bialik?

  He's so sweet with her.

• 48:28Jonathan Cohen?

  And they're such a good balance for each other.

• 48:30Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, they're very, they're very interesting balance.

• 48:32Jonathan Cohen?

  Sometimes when you text me, I feel like I'm gonna vomit.

• 48:36Jonathan Cohen?

  That's how I know the emotions are real.

• 48:39Mayim Bialik?

  Um, I think you and I should play them in the movie version of this.

• 48:43Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm gonna become an actor just so I can play Andrew Bustamante, cuz I just wanna wear the wig that is his hair.

• 48:49Mayim Bialik?

  His hair's amazing.

• 48:50Jonathan Cohen?

  I think we should get a wig that looks like that, and just to see what I would look like.

• 48:54Mayim Bialik?

  I think he recently said somewhere that like, oh, people would love me no matter what my hair looked like. I'm like, really? I don't know, it's like a big part of the appeal for me with the bandana, I love it.

• 49:05Mayim Bialik?

  They're a really, really fun couple, I'm really glad that we got to speak to both of them. Recommend Shadow Cell, an insider account of America's new spy war. It's very, very, it's very intense, and it really goes through all the twists and turns of their unbelievable life. Specifically establishing this particular cell in an undisclosed country that is hostile to the United States, which they can't name. Okay, from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time.