Bassem Youssef: The Jon Stewart of Egypt On Political Satire, The Power of Plants & The Pursuit of Happiness

One minute you're a heart surgeon. Blink once and you're hosting the most watched television program in Middle East history. Blink again and you're exiled from the homeland that made you famous. The story of Bassem Youssef is legend. But there's far more to this tale than meets the eye. Dubbed the Jon Stewart of the Arab World, today's guest is an Egyptian cardiothoracic surgeon and member of the Royal College of Surgeons who caught lightning in a bottle making catchy 5-minute YouTube videos in his Cairo laundry room. A flash moment later, he’s a media mega-star, the man behind a controversial, first-of-it’s-kind political satire program entitled Al-Bernameg that garnered a massive and unprecedented 30 million viewers every week. Insightful as it was incisive, Al-Bernameg received global acclaim and coverage in some of the world's biggest media outlets, culminating in Bassem appearing on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart – twice. But Bassem's bold criticism of the ruling powers led to accusations that he was disrupting public order, insulting Islam and its Armed Forces. Over 120 complaints were lodged with the General Prosecutor's office. Tens of lawsuits were filed. He was publicly smeared. Opponents put his theatre under seige, even jamming his satellite signal during airing. Then came the arrest — a detainment that brought Bassem to the realization that his media career in Eqypt had come to a swift and decisive end, culminating in Bassem fleeing his homeland for the United States. Nonetheless, Bassem’s work made an indelible imprint on Middle East culture. He landed on TIME magazine’s annual 100 Most Influential People list. He was awarded the International Press Freedom Award by the CPJ and chosen by Foreign Policy magazine as one of the global thinkers. The focus of the acclaimed documentary Tickling Giants, Bassem is the author of Revolution for Dummies: Laughing Through the Arab Spring*. And when he isn’t developing television projects or performing stand up comedy, he hosts a recently launched podcast entitled Remade In America. But Bassem's latest act could be his most impactful to date: the quest to revolutionize nutrition and health across the Middle East. As passionate about the plant-based lifestyle as he is about political satire, Bassem is on an unlikely yet zealous quest to leverage his medical background and massive influence across the Middle East (10+ million twitter followers!) to better educate the region on the inextricable connection between nutrition, illness and optimal health. This is a powerful conversation about how one doctor became a lightning rod media figure in the cross hairs of political power and social unrest. It’s about fake news, free speech and the cultural imperative of political satire in responsible citizenship. And it's a discourse on how this man's personal evolution and relationship with food motivated a desire to redress the chronic lifestyle illness epidemic America has exported across the Middle East. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:04Speaker 01

  Whether we talk about politics or diet, the mechanism and the rhetoric are the same. I think we, as humans, we are experts in putting so many obstacles between us from different places. And maybe health and food is one thing that can unite us. Maybe if we know that we are the same mortal bodies that have the same exact diseases because of the same habits, maybe we can get together in order to change these habits together. And if you think that a good dish of food can unite people, maybe good health can even unite people in a much better way.

• 1:36Rich Roll?

  That, my friends, is Bassem Youssef, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:51Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:55Rich Roll?

  Hey everybody. How you guys doing? What is happening? How are you? I am Rich Roll. That is my name. I am your host. This is my podcast. Welcome one and welcome all. Quick announcement before we dive into today's episode. I mentioned previously that I wanted to start doing more live podcast events. Well, good news for those of you in the Los Angeles area. On August 23rd, all of you can come spend an evening with me as I host the world premiere of a brand new movie, Running for Good. It's the Fiona Oakes documentary. And I'm going to be following up the screening with a live podcast event right in the theater with the film's director, Keegan Coon, and Fiona Oakes herself, which is really special because she lives in the UK. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity. It's going to be an awesome evening.

• 2:40Rich Roll?

  It's an honor to showcase another brilliant work from my friend, Keegan, who I'm sure you know as the co-director of both Cowspiracy and What the Health, and introduce you guys to Fiona Oakes, who I truly believe is one of the great but untold stories in modern endurance athletics. And I think that her story is something that will really move and inspire you. I receive a lot of requests to do public events. It's been my desire to do more of them as well. So this film and this rare live podcast are really a special way to kick off what hopefully will be more regular opportunities to share time with some of you guys. The event again is going to be August 23rd at the Royal Lemley Theater

• 3:23Rich Roll?

  in West LA. The movie starts at 7:30. A link to buy tickets, which I think are going to be $25, is in the show notes on the episode page for this episode, or you can click on the appearances menu tab on my website. Pick them up as soon as you can. They're going to go quick. All right. Super excited. Today's guest, this man is truly like no other. Dubbed the Jon Stewart of the Arab world, today's guest is Bassem Youssef, who is This cardiac surgeon who basically woke up one day and started making five-minute YouTube videos from his laundry room in Cairo, his home city. A flash moment later, he finds

• 4:07Rich Roll?

  himself hosting the most watched and most controversial television show across the Middle East. It's the first of its kind political satire program in the region, and it garnered this massive, unprecedented, gigantic audience, 30 million viewers every single week. The show received wide acclaim around the world. It got coverage in some of the planet's biggest media outlets, culminating in Bassem, appearing on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart on two occasions. The show was insightful, it was incisive, it was funny, but it was also boldly, boldly critical of the ruling powers, perhaps a little bit

• 4:48Rich Roll?

  too critical for the political palate of the region, which led to tens of lawsuits being filed against the show and Bassem personally. He was even arrested at one point. And due to all of this extreme pressure, he was ultimately compelled to terminate the show in 2014. And he actually even had to flee his homeland for the United States, and he currently lives in Los Angeles. But Bassem's work and this show created this legacy. It made this indelible imprint on Middle East culture. It landed him on Time Magazine's annual 100 Most Influential People list. He was awarded the International Press Freedom Award by the CPJ, and he was also chosen by Foreign Policy Magazine as one

• 5:33Rich Roll?

  of the world's great global thinkers. Bassem is also the focus of an acclaimed documentary entitled Tickling Giants. He is the author of Revolution for Dummies: Laughing Through the Arab Spring. And when he isn't developing television projects or doing stand-up comedy, he hosts a recently-launched podcast called Remade in America. But what is really interesting, and really what brought the two of us together, is Bassem's latest focus, which is aimed at leveraging his influence and this gargantuan social media profile that he has, this is a guy with 10 million Twitter followers, to improve health and nutrition across the Middle East. And I'd like to explain a little bit more about this in a minute, but first.

• 6:26Rich Roll?

  Okay, Bassem, Bassem Youssef. So, many of you may know this guy. You might know his story. You might have seen him on Jon Stewart a while back. You may have read about him in Time Magazine. But even if you are familiar with his story, you might not know that Bassem, who again is a cardiac surgeon by trade, has become this perhaps unlikely, yet quite ardent advocate for the plant-based lifestyle. This is something that he has become super passionate about, just as passionate about as he is about stand-up comedy and political satire. And it's this recent passion that, again, ultimately brought us together.

• 7:07Rich Roll?

  Bassem's story is beyond extraordinary. It's a story I would have wanted to share irrespective of his nutrition evangelism, but it made it all the more prescient for me. So, this is his story. It's a conversation about how a doctor became a lightning rod media figure in the crosshairs of political power and social unrest. It's about the cultural importance of political satire in responsible citizenship. And perhaps most interesting for this audience, it's about how his personal evolution and relationship with food and nutrition motivated this desire to redress the chronic lifestyle illness epidemic America has exported across the Middle East.

• 7:50Rich Roll?

  Final note, we conducted this interview at Bassem's apartment in the midst of this crazy heat wave that was happening a couple of weeks back in LA that left my studio with a power outage. So, we were unable to capture this podcast on video, unfortunately, and apologies if the sound isn't quite up to par, not what you're used to. But I think it's great. You guys are gonna enjoy it. And I wanted to thank publicly my friend Jason Purdy for making the initial connection, introduction to Bassem. So, this is me and Bassem Youssef.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Okay guys, we are going live Facebook. Okay, this is Facebook, this is Instagram. Is the Instagram working? Do you think the Instagram is working?

• 8:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, people are on.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Alright, cool.

• 8:40Rich Roll?

  They're watching you.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  Like hearts and smiley faces and everything?

• 8:42Rich Roll?

  Eighteen hundred people.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Alright, okay, alright, good. Alright, so again, let's do that again. This is Rich Rule, the legend of... He's the fittest man on earth. Officially, the fittest man on earth.

• 8:54Rich Roll?

  I don't know about that.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  Okay, and we are going to have a podcast about Plan B's Diet Los Angeles and food and everything else. So, let's do this!

• 9:03Rich Roll?

  Enjoy, everybody. Nice to see everybody.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's just like make sure that we have volume. We have volume!

• 9:09Rich Roll?

  Good.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Yes, alright, good. Yes, here it is.

• 9:13Rich Roll?

  Good to be with you, my friend.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 9:15Rich Roll?

  I'm so excited to talk to you. As a sort of prefatory remark, this is Plan B. The original intention was that you were gonna come out to my house and we were gonna record this in my studio and we were gonna film the whole thing. And we're having like crazy brownouts because of this heat wave. And our air conditioner went out and some of our outlets aren't working. It was just inhospitable. So, this is a first for Los Angeles. This might happen in Egypt. You might be more familiar with this phenomenon than I am.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  It needed the Middle Eastern to get you out of your hole.

• 9:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly. So, now we're over at Eurobode. So, thank you for hosting this.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:52Rich Roll?

  And excited to dig into your story. I mean, you have lived this extraordinary, magical life of rebirths and reinventions. From being this cardiac surgeon to being this media figure throughout the Middle East and now reinventing yourself here in the United States and having, you know, a giant impact here as well. I mean, it's just phenomenal what you've done. And that's not even getting into this latest chapter with your fascination with plant-based nutrition and your advocacy about spreading a message of health and nutrition throughout your homeland. So, it's gonna be cool to talk to you and unpack this whole insane story. So, why don't we start at... The beginning.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  All right.

• 10:38Rich Roll?

  This all kind of begins around, I mean, Arab Spring is really the catalyst for everything that had happened. So maybe even for, you know, the US listeners, explain what Arab Spring was.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, on a personal level, I was like working as a doctor heart surgeon and I finished almost most of my transfer exams to the United States. I got accepted in a fellowship here. I was ready to come and suddenly the Arab Spring.

• 11:03Rich Roll?

  At Cleveland Clinic, right?

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Not Cleveland Clinic, it was a children's hospital at Cleveland.

• 11:08Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Rainbow's Children's Hospital, one of the best hospitals for pediatric heart surgery. And I was ready to come. And then the Arab Spring happened and me, like thousands of doctors took to the streets to help people injured from the clashes. People wanting the regime to be gone, the, our present to be gone.

• 11:32Rich Roll?

  And just maybe just explain as a primer, like what exactly was happening, happening politically in Egypt at the time?

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Well, we had a president for 30 years and that's a lot.

• 11:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  And people had hoped that the change can happen. So we were inspired by Tunisia. Tunisia were the first to kick their dictator out, so we followed. And then we, we were hopeful that things will change. Now, as I was like in the streets of Cairo, like witnessing the demonstrations, I, I saw a discrepancy between what was happening in the streets and what was happening in the state-run media. Because that was a massive brainwash.

• 12:14Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  To the, to the public.

• 12:16Rich Roll?

  And this is 2011.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  2011, exactly. And so after the revolution ended, I, I said like, I want to do something about it. So I had created these YouTube videos, following the Daily Show style.

• 12:30Rich Roll?

  Right, so let's, let's, let's park it here for a minute. Like, I don't want to go too quickly through this because I want to know every detail about how this came about. So you were impacted by the difference between the people that you were meeting and what you were seeing as an eyewitness on the streets and what you were hearing in the state-run media or viewing on the state-run television.

• 12:54Rich Roll?

  Prior to that, had you grown up, I mean, you were familiar with Jon Stewart.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:59Rich Roll?

  Jon Stewart, like, the Comedy Central website was available

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:03Rich Roll?

  in Cairo at the time.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:04Rich Roll?

  And, as I understand it, his show would run on CNN International, like, once a week.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:09Rich Roll?

  So, you became a fan.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Of course. And I didn't understand what he was talking about, because I didn't understand what is Democrat, what is Republican, what is Fox News.

• 13:17Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  And it took me a while to understand what was happening, and I educated myself about American politics, and then I appreciated more his kind of satire and his kind of humor.

• 13:29Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  And I said, like, I wish we had something like this. But, of course, that, under a dictatorship for thirty years, that was

• 13:34Rich Roll?

  That's not...

• 13:35Speaker 01

  almost impossible.

• 13:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  And, so, when I saw an opening after the revolution, it's like, I want to do this.

• 13:41Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh. And, this begins with you recording these amateur videos, like, in your laundry room.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:47Rich Roll?

  Right, like, five-minute political satire monologues.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yes.

• 13:51Rich Roll?

  Based on what you were observing and your impressions

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:54Rich Roll?

  in a satirical fashion.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 13:56Rich Roll?

  And, like, what were you thinking? Like, what was, you know, what inspired you? Like, what made you think that this is something that you should do?

• 14:05Speaker 01

  I...

• 14:05Rich Roll?

  As a cardiac surgeon at the time, who's looking to come to America.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  I, like, honestly, I didn't think that even people would watch it. I think, like, maybe I'll have ten thousand views for a video. And then, and a few weeks later, I had millions.

• 14:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  And then, suddenly, every single TV station wanted me on their platform to do the show on TV, and select, and that was, like, an incredible choice, because are we going to do this, or am I going to continue with my medical career?

• 14:33Rich Roll?

  Right, so you make the first video with the idea that maybe ten thousand people will see it, and within a day, there's a hundred thousand views.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:41Rich Roll?

  And, within a week, I don't know, a million, or something like that.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  And, in two weeks, or three weeks, there were, like, five million or something.

• 14:47Rich Roll?

  Right, exactly. So, after five videos, or five weeks, you had, like, thirty million views?

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:54Rich Roll?

  Something like that?

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, like, just like growing, but the thirty million views actually spilled, the thirty million views actually spilled into television in my second season.

• 15:02Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  But, before that... I had a TV offer to

• 15:07Rich Roll?

  Like after three videos, right?

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, three, four videos.

• 15:10Rich Roll?

  The TV stations start calling you.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then it, and after eight weeks, I was on television.

• 15:15Rich Roll?

  Right, and right after these, these networks were inquiring

• 15:23Rich Roll?

  into developing something with you, that's when you got your H1 visa, right? And the paperwork was all cleared for you to come to Cleveland, which created this very difficult decision that you had to make about the trajectory of your career.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Should I continue saving people's life and mending people's hearts? Or should I choose empty fame and money?

• 15:41Rich Roll?

  We all know what you chose.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Of course, empty fame and money.

• 15:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and, and what do you think it was that, that made it so instantaneously popular?

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Because people in the Middle East are used to humor. We have a very long tradition of humor and comedy, but political humor and political satire was totally absent. To actually to speak against the people in power was not, was not common.

• 16:08Rich Roll?

  Well, it's not safe either.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  And it's not safe. So when, there was kind of like, the, the show was following the hope that came with the revolution, that everybody can speak up, everybody can say, you know, what's on their mind. And that was like for a very brief moment after the revolution. And, and then after the first season in, in television, which was like a very small studio, pre-recorded, I wanted to do a live show. And that, again, was unheard of in the Middle East. So that was like another step that I wanted to take that was unprecedented. So I came to the United States, I came to Jon Stewart, and I just, with the intention of just shadowing his team.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  I had a talk for him, with him for, you know, an hour. He wanted to speak to me, and then suddenly he said, why don't you come on the show?

• 17:00Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  And that kind of like changed everything. Because now I said like, I have to prove to him that we can do that show in Egypt. We went back in Egypt, we got like a huge theater. And we, for the first time in the Middle East, we did a live show.

• 17:15Rich Roll?

  And he came out and was a guest on that show, right?

• 17:17Speaker 01

  He came and he came to be a guest on the show. And he came and he appreciated what we were doing because this was not just like a comedy show where satire is a settled right. It was something that we had problems under the military, under the Islamists. It was problematic for us. So to do actually comedy under these circumstances, these were very difficult.

• 17:41Rich Roll?

  Right, so what kind of numbers are you getting? Like you're getting crazy like Mash, right? Because there isn't the disintermediation of media in the Middle East like we have here now, right? Like it was easier to focus eyeballs and when you struck lightning, you were able to develop this massive audience, not just in Egypt, but across the Middle East.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, in our peak, we had 40 million viewers.

• 18:06Rich Roll?

  That's insane.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  And that's Egypt and everybody in the Arab world and in the diaspora was watching the show.

• 18:12Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  That was like, and people would just maybe, if because of the time difference, if they're living in the United States, they would like save it for the next day to watch it on YouTube.

• 18:22Rich Roll?

  Uh huh, and this is like in a very compressed period of time, right?

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:27Rich Roll?

  So you go from this guy thinking you're going to Cleveland to perform heart surgeries to becoming this massive media figure almost overnight. I mean, it had to be rather disorienting.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I mean, every day I had to wake up and pinch myself to see if that's real, if that's true.

• 18:47Rich Roll?

  And they let you get away with it for a while.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  But here's the thing, at that time, the wave of the revolution was too high. Nobody can really can have the choice to let you do something. There was, there was a momentum of the revolution that people couldn't really stop.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  So the Islamist, the Muslim Brotherhood, I was interrogated. I went under the, for the general prosecutor, I was interrogated for six hours. They tried to stop the show. I had my problem with them, but they couldn't stop it. But after the coup, after the military came over, they were strong enough and they came over a wave of like popular demand, which was easier for them to stop the show, not just once, but twice. I continued.

• 19:28Rich Roll?

  And that was in the second or third season?

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, the final season. So under the military, I continued for a year, working for a whole season. But eventually it was stopped because the military was very popular and they used the popularity to end the excuse of security issues and terrorism to close down any window of dissidents. And that was what happened to the show. And for me, it was not safe anymore to stay in my country, so I left.

• 20:00Rich Roll?

  Right. How long were you doing the show before that wave started to recede and turn against you?

• 20:06Speaker 01

  So I did it through 2011, 2012, 2013, where the military took over. Then I continued till the middle 2014.

• 20:15Rich Roll?

  And meanwhile, you know, somewhere along the line, death threats come in, lawsuits, basically every tool in the toolbox to try to get you off the air.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  People trying, people threatening to burn down the theater, people putting the theater under siege, harassing people coming in and out, yeah.

• 20:32Rich Roll?

  And did you feel unsafe?

• 20:35Speaker 01

  I, I, it just like, it was funny, funny that like, we didn't really think about like how bad things were. We were thinking about like doing a good show. We really didn't think like what was gonna happen to us. We, we thought of like, are we going to meet our deadlines every week?

• 20:52Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  And we were too focused on the, on, on, on the material, on the concept of the show, that we didn't really care about the threats.

• 21:01Rich Roll?

  It's interesting that you say that there's this rich tradition of comedy throughout the Middle East. You know, I'm somebody who's spent a fair amount of time in the Middle East, but I, I sort of think of that culture as a little more serious.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no, no.

• 21:14Rich Roll?

  So what is the difference in the comedic sensibility in the Middle East versus in the United States?

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Oh, no, we have like very high sense of comedic sensibility, but I mean, Egypt has a very long tradition of comedy, but. Traditionally, it was only allowed to do social satire. And if it's gonna be political, it's gonna be like, you know, underhanded, you know, hidden, insinuated. But we have like, I mean, we had our cinemas, our theater, pretty much at the same time as Europe were having them. We had a very long tradition of entertainment, music, and comedy. So Egypt, but it was the political comedy that was not allowed to flourish.

• 21:52Rich Roll?

  Was there pushback by the public when you got yanked off the air? I mean, was there?

• 21:57Speaker 01

  There was a lot of-

• 21:58Rich Roll?

  Because you're sort of the voice of the people.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  No, I was not, not the voice. I don't like to use that term of voice of the people.

• 22:04Rich Roll?

  Why not?

• 22:05Speaker 01

  I would be the, because like, that is kind of a representation that is, I don't like, I don't want to have that kind of responsibility because I'm my voice. And people might find it to agree with that voice. And people might find that they don't agree with that voice. But there was a lot of pushback, yes, from people who were supporting the military. And there were, before that, there was a pushback from people who supported the Islamists. Both of them thought that I was too rude and was too insulting. And my show was counterintuitive to the stability and the safety of the country.

• 22:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Counterproductive.

• 22:45Rich Roll?

  Now, being here in the United States, you know, we're mired in a fair amount of political turmoil at the moment. And things are in many ways different than they ever have been. When you look at what's going on in the United States and kind of reflect back upon what you experienced in Egypt, how do you think about the political climate in the US? Do you think like, oh, well, you know, they don't know anything about what it's like to endure hardship? Or are you seeing the seeds of what could become what you experienced there?

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Well, the only difference between the United States and what I left back in the Middle East is that so far, you still have a system in place that can prevent full-blown fascism from happening. So far. I mean, you have a president who has been not very, I don't know, like-

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Compared to the people that came before him, it's very disturbing. But what is putting him in check is the system. What is putting him in check that every two years you have midterms that can change the constituents of the House and the Senate. I think if he didn't have that kind of system, he would have actually abused that power. So what you have in check is the system, which hopefully that can prevent further damage. I don't know how much damage that could be done before you can prevent that. I don't know how much people will turn out in the next midterm and the following midterm to abort that kind of damage. It's really up to the people. So at least you have the mechanism where, all right, in two years' time, we can change this.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  But back in the Middle East, you can have like a military taking over or an Islamist regime taking over and not allowing any kind of change to happen.

• 24:36Rich Roll?

  Indefinite.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Indefinite, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's a big problem. So but if you're talking about the same narrative, the same kind of mindset of like, I don't want to be questioned. I will not be held accountable. Trump has the same exact mindset as many of our dictators. The only thing that is preventing him from going full-blown dictator is the system.

• 24:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and so how does that translate into how you think about our responsibility or obligation to speak truth to power or to be, you know, to bring voice to dissent?

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And that's what you see here in every single night when, you know, when late-night shows. You know, not just holding the president accountable, like basically making fun of him every single night. You have like an annual tradition, like the White House Correspondent Dinner, which Trump, for the second year, didn't show up to, which is pretty much disheartening. But these tools are always reminding the people that this is a human being, that he is a public servant, and he needs to understand that he's a public servant. And that's what's missing from the mind of Trump. And that's definitely what's missing from the mind of so many dictators in the Middle East.

• 25:58Rich Roll?

  So ultimately, you're foisted off the air, the show gets canceled, and you essentially have to flee.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:06Rich Roll?

  You've come here, right?

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:07Rich Roll?

  And you can't go back.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  So far, I don't think it is safe for me.

• 26:12Rich Roll?

  But your family is back there now?

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Some of them are there.

• 26:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, okay. And you've been here for a little over a year at this point?

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've been outside of Egypt for four years, and I've been in Los Angeles for a year and a half.

• 26:26Rich Roll?

  Right. And how's it been?

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Oh, Los Angeles is amazing. I mean, I'm kind of trying to reinvent my career here in comedy in a language that's not mine. Speaking English as a second language is something, but doing comedy in English as a second language is something totally different.

• 26:40Rich Roll?

  Well, that's the amazing thing. I mean, the fact that you came here as a complete outsider. I mean, you have this massive following, but it's essentially a Middle Eastern demographic. You have to reinvent yourself, reestablish yourself, and make your way, for lack of a better phrase, in Hollywood. And you're doing that. I mean, you're doing stand-up, you're going to New York tonight, right? You're doing like a standing show there. You've got this new podcast, Remade in America. I know you've had a variety of television shows and development, and you've got a lot of, like, there's a lot of activity and interest in doing something.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  Well, Los Angeles may be one of the most competitive places on earth when it comes to entertainment, so I have to compete with other people who've been living all their lives here, having English as their first language. And it's not easy, and sometimes I have to say that I get nervous that like maybe I will never be able to make it. But the challenge, that's a new challenge for me. And I hope that I will have some foothold in American media because I think people from my part of the world need to be heard. Because you always hear people speaking for us instead of people speaking from us. And I want to be one of these voices.

• 27:52Rich Roll?

  What do you think the biggest misunderstanding that we have as Americans about...

• 27:58Rich Roll?

  Middle Eastern culture or the Muslim faith?

• 28:01Speaker 01

  I, I, here's, here's one thing, that not all Middle Eastern culture is Muslim, you know? So, but then people think that like Middle East is one monolith. That's, that's not true. You have Christians, Muslims, non-believers. You have people who are pro-military, pro-Islamist, that are very secular. And I think one of the biggest misconception is that people, especially on a political level, people think that the, the, you either have to, it's a duality between an Islamist regime or a military regime. And they think a military regime is a secular regime, which is not true. And I think these two regimes are two sides of the same coin. And you need to have, to support more of secular, liberal, Middle Eastern, who need to have a voice. And that's our only way out.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Because if we keep oscillating between these two, there is nothing good that can happen for the Middle East.

• 28:55Rich Roll?

  Right, right. And, and you grew up Muslim. What is your, what's your relationship to that faith?

• 29:01Speaker 01

  I mean, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm like a, I'm a Muslim by birth, by culture. And I, when I speak, I, whatever happened to Muslim people here will affect me, even if I'm Christian, or an atheist, or a non-believing Muslim. Because at the end of the day, we are grouped together, right? So, my relationship with the faith or the religion is that I should ask for liberty and freedom for all, whether in my country or here. And this is basically also some of the things that I sometimes be critical about my people in, in, in here, that we, we talk a lot about like our freedoms in Europe and in America, but we should also talk about the freedom of other minorities in the Middle East. So, I want that balance to happen.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  I want people to have the freedom of worship, the freedom of not, not wanting to believe if they want to, whether in America or in back in the Middle East.

• 29:56Rich Roll?

  And what's your sense of, of where we're at in that evolution?

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Well, I think there, there has been huge steps, because I'm, I'm, I'm, I find it very interesting to find people from the Jewish faith, or, or people who are atheists, or people who are Christians, who support the rights of Muslims to come and, and, and immigrate and stay and have their rights to... Worship here, I think it has been actually moved by people who are not Muslims. And I think that I appreciate that, and I think we should as Muslims and as Middle Eastern and as Arabs do the same back in our country. But you have to understand that one of the biggest obstacles of that happening back home is authority.

• 30:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  Because like the people can, they were also like a big obstacle, but if you have an authority that is very adamant about like providing freedom for everybody, the people will comply at the end.

• 30:51Rich Roll?

  Well, packed into that, that authoritarianism is a restriction on not just free speech, but the free flow of information. You know, we're in the midst of this technological renaissance where information has become ubiquitous amidst the free world. If that information pipeline can penetrate those areas, I think it will only lead to reform and evolution. Like we're seeing, you know, Saudi, Saudi women are driving now, like there's changes that are occurring, right? But when the authoritarian regime cracks down on the availability of that information, then it becomes restrictive and regressive.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Absolutely, and you have to understand, like 70 years ago, Europe was going through a whole military fascism, right? Military dictatorship, right? And it took, it took blood, it took victims, it took people to suffer. So, I mean, I don't want to say that like we should have that, but like if you look to the evolution of the whole world, it went through suffering, it went through blood, and hopefully we don't have to do this, but it is history.

• 31:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So when you hear the phrase fake news, like what's your, you know, how do you think about that?

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Well, when I hear the phrase fake news, I say like, guys, you don't know, you don't even understand what fake news is. You have to come to my country to understand what fake news is, because this is an art that we have mastered. Our state-run media is maybe, it's just like, it's fake news can put any other kind of fake news to shame.

• 32:22Rich Roll?

  Give me an example of that.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  So, one news anchor came out on Egyptian television and he said that we have defeated the American Six Fleet in the Mediterranean and we have captured their commander. And that is based on Hillary Clinton's book. So, of course, nobody read the book. Nobody will even read it. But he didn't just like claim that as news. He said that this comes from Hillary Clinton's book, which is absolutely like bollocks.

• 32:53Rich Roll?

  Right. And so, when you get a glimpse of what we consider fake news here, like, how do you think about that? Like, you think of that as fake news light?

• 33:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 33:05Rich Roll?

  I mean, or do you see the sort of seeds of what could become what you've experienced?

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Well, I have seen many similarities. For example, the whole thing about Obama being a secret Muslim and a secret Muslim Brotherhood here, we have the same thing back in Egypt. The whole thing about Obama is supporting ISIS and you have ISIS training camps, 40 ISIS training camps in the United States. Because I've talked to Trump supporters and they do believe that. It's just like, and I think the whole thing about fake news is a way to confirm your bias and a way to confirm your own misconceptions about other people.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  So, because hate is illogical and hating other human beings is something that is outside of our nature. So, what do you need to do? You need to have a set of information, set of bias, in order to allow you to hate those people. So, like, when Hitler said that the Jews and the liberal socialists and the communists did this and this and this in Germany and they are the reason for our downfall, so people needed a reason to hate those people to allow the atrocities that happened towards them. The same thing when you do hear about immigrants or Mexicans are rapists or Muslims are terrorists, you know?

• 34:30Speaker 01

  You need... These kind of fake news, these kind of narratives, in order to have a clear conscience, it's a permission to hate.

• 34:38Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, I get that. I mean, basically, it's finding somebody's pain point, or what they're most afraid of, and finding a way to weaponize that

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 34:48Rich Roll?

  to affirm your position of power by feeding them a certain kind of information that affirms that sensibility.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Yes, and the same was plant-based diet. Because like, you're gonna call vegans militants, they are hippies, they are... So, I'm gonna tell you the funniest thing that was said about veganism. So, when we talk about veganism in the plant-based diet group in Egypt, one of the things they're like, "This is a conspiracy by westerners in order to make Arabs and Muslims weak. So, we can eat plants, not meat."

• 35:24Rich Roll?

  And you will be overrun.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  And we're gonna be overrun, which is like, really, we already overrun. So, this is one of the things, that this is a conspiracy by the hippies, by the deviant liberals, by the West, in order to make Arabs and Muslims weak. I mean, this is, of course, one of the craziest things. Some of the stuff that's been said, that this is, of course, and they're all a misconception of, "If you don't eat meat, you're not gonna be healthy. If you don't eat meat, you're not gonna grow muscles. If you're gonna be weak, there's not enough protein in plants." All of this, it's just, whether we talk about politics or diet, the mechanisms and the rhetorics are the same.

• 36:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's pretty fascinating how, even if you just use Twitter as a case study, to look at the arguments that take place, how impassioned they are on both sides, you realize how much it mirrors and reflects the political dialogue.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:20Rich Roll?

  It's very similar.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Yes, and for the people watching this from Egypt, I mean, this is a guy who's like a living proof, at the age of 41, you were like, pre-diabetic, or something like that, I mean...

• 36:31Rich Roll?

  I was not in good shape. I was 50 pounds overweight, I was, you know, I was... My heart was in poor health. I had a little bit of a scare one evening, and that really triggered me to reevaluate how I was living and eating.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then you change your life and I'm sure people say, what are you doing? You're gonna die, you're not gonna have enough protein. And then you went and you did like five Ironmans in seven days.

• 36:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, you're looking pretty fit yourself.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  I'm trying.

• 36:56Rich Roll?

  You know, yeah, you look good. So let's, let's talk about how the whole vegan thing came about for you because that's how we initially connected. I mean, I was aware of who you were and what you, what your work was. But I was not aware of how passionate you have become about plant-based nutrition. This was news to me, so walk me through.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  All right, September 15th, 2013, this is where I changed. I remember the date because this is where I talked to a friend of mine. His name is Nader, he's in Egypt, he's in the Red Sea, Hurghada. And he, I knew that like he had, was diagnosed by an advanced stage of multiple sclerosis in 2006. And they told him in five years' time, you're gonna be on a wheelchair. In 10 years' time, you're gonna be incapacitated. And then I, I heard these news and I was, you know, devastated because Nader went to school with me. And I knew him, we played basketball together, we played soccer together. And I was heartbroken. And then when I connected, no, I'm fine now, I'm actually in a much better, how are you in a better shape?

• 37:58Rich Roll?

  Right, advanced MS.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Nobody comes back from MS. It's like, no, no, just like, come and let's have a talk. So we, we had a long talk and 15th September, 2013, I was eating a double cheeseburger, french fries and a diet coke. And he was telling.

• 38:13Rich Roll?

  Like every good cardiac surgeon.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Exactly, and I was that one of those people who made fun of vegans and plant-based and all of that. And he told me his story and how he went into fasting and then he went into retreats and how he changed his life into plant-based diet. And then he suggested all of these reading materials and all of that. And when he explained to me, he talked to me scientifically, medically. And I said, that's it, I'm changing. Of course, he said like, yeah, okay, you know, because when people tell you they're gonna change, you know, they're gonna come back. And 15th September, 2013, I never went back.

• 38:46Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  And I started to not just. Keep this information to myself, but but kind of like to spread it as much as possible. And then a friend of mine who was screenwriter who had a big obesity problem. He was about to go in and do like a an operation.

• 39:01Rich Roll?

  The the weight loss surgery.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's gonna do, I think, a sleeve or a bypass, whatever. He talked, he called me and I kind of coached him. He became an advocate. He created this plant-based diet group in Egypt. And he was and and then now we have like almost like half a million people there. And we this became a support group for recipes for people putting success stories. And it was amazing. And and of course, we had a lot of our our share of resistance. Because whether this resistance comes from a religious point of view, we're not telling anybody to, you know, to to stop believing what they believe. Or it became from a medical point of view, a lot of doctors and nutritionists and and personal trainers started to criticize us.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  And he said, like, we are spreading false science, although plant-based whole food diet is one of the most researched diets in in the past 20 or 30 years. It's not like other fat diets like paleo or whatever other diets are. So we the more that like we spread this kind of information, the more people get the benefit out of it. And as a matter of fact, at the end of next month, I'm gonna to start to shoot a mini docu-series, a digital series in Arabic and in English to explain to people plant-based diet in both languages.

• 40:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Because what people don't understand that people in America and people in the Middle East, they share this the the same problems with food, with diet. One doctor told me once, you guys have been always wanting to live like the West. Now you're dying like the West.

• 40:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  We are have like the highest rates of diabetes, of obesity in the Middle East. And people are just like looking for another magic pill or another fat diet. And that's why they always keep coming back.

• 40:50Rich Roll?

  I got a million questions for you.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:52Rich Roll?

  But. I've spent a lot, like I said, I've spent a fair amount of time in the Middle East. I've been, I did a speaking tour where I did three cities in Saudi Arabia. I've been to Karachi, Pakistan, I've been to Bahrain, where else? A bunch of places across that area. And at first I was like, why am I, why do I keep getting called to come to this part of the world to speak about these things? Like, it seemed like the cultural divide was so vast, like, how could these people even be remotely interested in what I have to share? And what I realized was that it's exactly what you just said. Like, as you sort of tour these cities, you see American fast food restaurants everywhere.

• 41:34Rich Roll?

  You see giant malls, like in Riyadh, you know, just massive malls. And I would convene with small groups of people, most of these were in private homes, young parents of young children. And these people are experiencing health problems that are unprecedented in the history of humanity. They have childhood obesity, they have childhood onset diabetes, their kids are, it's too hot to go outside, they're at the mall, they're playing video games, and they're eating fast food. And as the parents start adopting this Western diet that we've exported across the world, they're starting to experience these health dilemmas, these health problems, for the first time ever.

• 42:15Rich Roll?

  But they don't have as much of the awareness that we have in the West about how to deal with it and what exactly is going on. And this is only continuing to spread. And I think it's really reached epidemic levels across the Middle East. But they don't have the educational resources quite, it's not quite as matured as it is here. So that's what I think, why I think what you're doing is so important.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:39Rich Roll?

  And you could be a voice of this, and they can actually hear it. And with your pedigree and, you know, being a doctor and all of that, it's super powerful.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, well, again, if I'm one doctor, there's like a hundred doctors that will oppose what I'm gonna say.

• 42:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But you're used to that. It's almost like what you did in media is, was like boot camp to get you ready for this.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  Exactly, because like, because the thing is, we, we have a problem in our medical education, not just in Egypt, but also in America and the West, that we think that we have good nutritional, scientific education, we don't.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  As doctors, we don't.

• 43:15Rich Roll?

  Right, so in medical school, what did the nutritional curriculum look like?

• 43:20Speaker 01

  It's the same as here, and it is not enough. The whole thing about like, protein means meat, calcium means milk. And this is the kind of education that we get. And a lot of doctors will not accept this because out of ego, out of like, oh, I know everything. But there's a lot of doctors here in the United States who are leading the movement of plant-based diet, who are very humble about it, like, guys, we did not get enough nutritional education, even in the best American schools. And this is what they are trying to change, and this is what we need to change.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  There's a lot of nutritionists, of course, and because there is no money in telling people, go and get just fruits and vegetables and eat whole food diet. You have to get this kind of supplement, this kind of pill, this kind of fancy food that you can only find in one store that I can sell to you. So we're just telling people to go back to the basics, and there's no money in that. So you're not gonna have the support of pharmaceutical companies. You're not gonna have the support of the meat and dairy industry, which are subsidized by $30 billion by the American government,

• 44:41Speaker 01

  while they subsidize fruits and vegetables by less than $3 million or $30 million, something like that. I mean, the difference is just like humongous.

• 44:50Rich Roll?

  And in a media context, you can't get adequate airtime because traditional media is funded by pharmaceutical industry and the sugar industry and the beef and dairy industries.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  But there are doctors who have actually tried to break into that, like Dr. Michael Gregory, Dr. Scott Stoll, Dr. Dean Ornich. These people have got like, good airtime, but not enough. There are people like you who have like showed the world through their work and through their activity that what they can do, because... What is the biggest criticism? Oh, you cannot build muscles. You cannot be healthy. You cannot do this effort. And when you find someone doing Ironman on plants or someone who's lifting weights on plants, I mean, it just like goes outside the window. And yet you will find people, oh, they're taking steroids.

• 45:42Rich Roll?

  They're taking steroids or they're some kind of weird outlier. So they don't count and they get dismissed. But I think the athletes have an important role in this whole movement because they can be, you know, the counterpoint to that, you know, conventional wisdom.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:03Rich Roll?

  So your friend has this incredible, remarkable health turnaround.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Not just that. He started to go back to Egypt and he started to have these retreats, fasting retreats in the Red Sea. So now in Egypt, people will go there for two weeks that would fast, only water fasting, and then get, do refeeding on plant-based diet.

• 46:25Rich Roll?

  And did he come to the United States to get that experience and education initially?

• 46:29Speaker 01

  He traveled all around the world. He went to South Africa, Costa Rica, the United States. He actually, he's all over. He was very dedicated to change his life.

• 46:38Rich Roll?

  And where is his MS right now?

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Oh, he's playing Motropolo now.

• 46:42Rich Roll?

  That's unbelievable.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you never hear that.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  12 years after being diagnosed.

• 46:47Rich Roll?

  Wow. That is amazing.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  But there are more stories like this. I mean, when you talk to the doctors that I mentioned, there are some stories of like MS patients who have been on wheelchairs and then they do triathlons. Or someone who had like a visible lesion in the MRI and the lesion is gone.

• 47:04Rich Roll?

  So the lights go on for you. And who do you seek out first? Like, what are the books that you end up reading? Or who are the doctors that you seek out?

• 47:12Speaker 01

  The China study. For Silver Knives, the Star Solution. I started to watch all kinds of videos for Caldwell Esselstyn, John McDougall, Michael Greger, you know, Dean Ornich, and then I started to reach out to them. And then I attended the one of the San Diego Plantarian Conference a couple of years ago. I met all of them and I'm working with Dr. Scott Stoll right now in order to bring that kind of information.

• 47:45Rich Roll?

  Right, he runs the Plantarian Project.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 47:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's great. I'm trying to get him on the podcast soon, too.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I'll connect you.

• 47:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we're connected, all right. We're gonna make it happen. But what's interesting is that had you, I'm wondering, like, had you made that decision to go to Cleveland, perhaps you would have crossed paths with Dr. Esselstyn anyway.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  No, I don't know. But I mean, but what sold me the idea was a patient, was a friend of mine, someone who I knew personally.

• 48:16Rich Roll?

  Right, and anecdotal experience.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, so maybe I would go to Cleveland, I would never have met Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn.

• 48:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and did you go, you've been up to True North, too, right?

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Not yet, no, but I sent friends there who really found like amazing difference in their health.

• 48:30Rich Roll?

  Right, so talk to me about the state of health in the Middle East and kind of the general idea that people have around nutrition and the obstacles that you're, you touched on it earlier, but the obstacles in trying to help them see a different way.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  So, health-wise, the Arab countries are one of the highest in the world in diabetes, the obesity, MS is starting to appear. We didn't ever heard of Crohn's disease, now it's everywhere. I think Egypt is number nine in the world as in number of diabetics and one of the top 10 as in percentage. Same with Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Jordan. The health indices were the heart disease, obesity, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, autoimmune disease, it just like skyrocketed. So, that's the state of the, of health in the Middle East. The problem is that they're dealing with it the same way America dealt with it, they're

• 49:33Speaker 01

  throwing more money at the problem. And

• 49:38Rich Roll?

  Through procedures and pharmaceuticals.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. And the, and the problem that there, that the obstacles that we're having is traditional, religious, because they think that we are telling them not to eat meat, because we have one day where people sacrifice, you know,

• 50:00Speaker 01

  you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a religious ritual. And, and we say, all right, if, if it's just like one day a year, fine, you know, just, we're talking to you about 364 days a year.

• 50:11Rich Roll?

  So explain to me the religious resistance, like unpack that.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  So because, you know, they consider that meat is a blessing by God, as I mentioned in Scripture. So if it is created by God, it created for us by God, it has to be good. But we tell them that God wants you in a, in a perfect health. So at the, and at the same time, He gave you signs to understand this. And if you, for example, go to a doctor tomorrow and you're having liver and kidney failure, the first thing the doctor will tell you is, stop eating meat. Is this doctor an antichrist or anti-God? He is giving you the kind of signs that God also created for you in order to be a better person. So we try to tread very delicately when it comes to this, because we don't want

• 51:00Speaker 01

  this to be a clash of beliefs or religions. We, so we have the religion, we have, of course, the tradition, because the Middle East is a very hospitable place. It's all about tradition. And to show appreciation to people is to show it by food. Food is a whole social experiment, social way to get people together. So now, it's a, it's a lifestyle problem. It's like the barbecue in Texas.

• 51:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, except, you know, on steroids, right? A thousandfold more important and, and more emotional for people. So when you come in and say, listen, you know, I know you like to serve this, and this is very important to you, and this is part and parcel of what it means to celebrate this holiday, or to show love to your loved ones, now you gotta do it a totally different way.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:47Rich Roll?

  That's a difficult pill to swallow.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And, and this is, this is the kind of, of obstacles that we are, we're facing. And So they try to oppose it by saying all the way from this is not right, this is not scientific, or everything is okay with moderation. And that's the that's the little word there, moderation.

• 52:08Rich Roll?

  We all have a different definition of moderation.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:11Rich Roll?

  And and people who think that they are eating a moderate diet or living a balanced lifestyle generally aren't.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And and that's why my my goal in this new docu-series is to basically focus on disease. So people who have diabetes or autoimmune disease will be more willing to listen. Because a lot of people say, hey, I'm healthy. I don't care. I'm not. Fine. Do whatever you want. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be speaking to you.

• 52:43Rich Roll?

  So as a as a doctor, a cardiologist, perhaps it's worth, especially for your your followers on this plant-based nutrition group in Egypt, to really walk people through the relationship between animal products and these diseases. Because there are a lot of people think, well, diabetes, that sugar, or, you know, you haven't really established that the meat is really the culprit here. Maybe there's some anecdotal evidence. But how can you really convince me that these are the foods that I need to remove?

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Exactly. Because you know, diabetes, when we in Arabic, you know, it's called Mar de Soca, which actually translates to the disease of sugar. So in their mind, it meat and fat doesn't have to do anything with it. It's a sugar and carbs. Which is, we want to explain to them that that's not the culprit, the main culprit. The main culprit is actually animal products and what what animal products do to you. And there's a lot of like, how dairy is not as healthy as you think, you know. So it just, it is a long road. And we we're just like chipping in into like this big. Structure of misconception that hopefully people will come to realize that that is not whatever what we were told about food is not true.

• 53:57Rich Roll?

  And so this docu-series, explain to me what this is all about.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  So basically, it's gonna be five-minute episodes. Each episode will either deal with a certain disease or a certain misconception about food. So it's gonna be either like heart disease, or one of them is actually about erectile dysfunction. That's a very important.

• 54:17Rich Roll?

  That gets people's attention.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Yes. Diabetes, dairy, the misconception of protein, the misconception of omegas, you know, is fish good for us? Is egg good for us? So every five minutes will just be dedicated to one of these misconceptions. And we try to debunk it, whether a little bit by humor, a little bit by information, a little bit by conversation. So we're gonna try different styles in each one.

• 54:44Rich Roll?

  And is this gonna be on YouTube? Are you doing this independently?

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, it's gonna be free for everyone, like on Facebook, YouTube. I wanted to be, to reach out to as many people as possible.

• 54:53Rich Roll?

  Right. And you're doing some interesting things throughout the Middle East, right, on a, on a kind of top-tier level in terms of meeting with political bodies and corporate heads and things like that? Can you speak about that?

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I'm trying to actually find investors in the Middle East to kind of support this kind of narrative in, in a way that actually will bring them money. So if, well, hopefully when people see this, they want to try, so we can open retreats and centers and, and do services in order to help people to maintain that kind of lifestyle. Because a lot of people get convinced by that, but their first question is, all right, how can I start? We even have a 30 Days Challenge, that we're gonna, we're gonna create a website, we have a 30 Days Challenge in order so they can follow that kind of, of lifestyle. And I want to bring governments that, because a lot of governments in the Middle East are paying so much money in medical insurance bills.

• 55:47Rich Roll?

  Can you tell me that story you told me at lunch the other day?

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Which one?

• 55:51Rich Roll?

  The one about... If you need a heart procedure.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, so a certain country in the Middle East, a certain country in the Middle East.

• 55:59Rich Roll?

  You're not gonna say which one?

• 56:01Speaker 01

  A certain country in the Middle East, when you are a citizen, it's a Gulf country and you need a heart procedure, they send you to Germany or to England, first-class ticket with two family members, paid leave for six months, including all of the accommodation expenses and pocket money for six months in order to make an operation, and this is causing them to pay billions of dollars each year.

• 56:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I can't imagine the price tag on just one.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, so imagine if you said, alright, give us those patients and we can reverse their disease, and you can only pay a fraction of the money.

• 56:38Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, they'll save billions of dollars.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:41Rich Roll?

  Because that's only gonna ramp up, there's gonna be more and more people.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Exactly, because you're not changing the lifestyle.

• 56:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And do you have a sense that this is taking root, that people are listening and that change is happening?

• 56:58Speaker 01

  You have groups now for vegan Arabs, we have groups for plant-based diets on Arabs in Egypt, and people are starting to wake up, so at least if people are starting to understand that they need to eat less meat, or less dairy, dairy is difficult not to crack, so.

• 57:18Rich Roll?

  Because?

• 57:19Speaker 01

  Because everybody think, nothing bad comes out of dairy, dairy is healthy, it's full of calcium, you know, everybody will say, oh yeah, eating too much meat is bad, but nobody will tell you that eating yogurt, or cheese, or dairy is bad, for us, it is the absolute health food, the same with eggs.

• 57:37Rich Roll?

  And do you speak at all about the environmental considerations, or you just keep it strictly to the health?

• 57:43Speaker 01

  I try to keep it strictly to health for one reason, because a lot of people see the environmental impact as too remote for them, they don't understand it, or they don't care, or they think they are like pretty much away from it, so there's no reason for me to kind of waste too much of like the real estate of the material that I'm using to convince them with the environment. I think when people, I'm sorry to say this, but humans in general are selfish. I need to make it important to their everyday health life. Their medical bill, the fact that they're not going to be constipated anymore, the fact they're going to sleep better.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  When they feel the effect, then they can go into the ethical problems. They can see that they don't need to kill plants or animals in order to survive. That their footprint actually have an impact on the environmental problem in the world. But I have to start to keep it and focus on health.

• 58:44Rich Roll?

  Right. I know that in China, we're seeing the growth, like massive growth of the middle class and the sort of lower upper class. And with that comes a sense of entitlement to eat a certain diet that was previously unavailable to them, and that means more meat.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  Well, that happened also in the Middle East.

• 59:03Rich Roll?

  So that was my question, is that occurring there as well?

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Especially in the oil-rich countries. So 40 years ago, Saudi Arabia, Emirates, Qatar were very simple people, you know. They were like, they had, they lived on trade and fishing and, you know, they were basically, they have a rich bed.

• 59:19Rich Roll?

  Date farming.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, they farm dates, yeah. They come from a rich Bedouin tradition. Then when oil was discovered, they have attained, acquired this amazing amount of wealth all of a sudden. And with that comes the ascension into a separate class. And then meat becomes now more of a stable diet, not just like something that they eat in feasts. Same thing happened in Egypt, but in Egypt, we still have the problem, not just in the richer classes, we have a problem in the lower classes, lower socioeconomic classes, because they compensate with the lack of meat, with a lot of oil and sugar.

• 59:57Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, that becomes a huge problem, all the oil and everything.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, so everything is deep-fried, because this is for them, this is how they get the calories.

• 1:00:06Rich Roll?

  Right. And what about kids?

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  Kids follow their parents. And this is why we have a, we are now seeing an increase in the rise of diabetes type 1. We have an increase in autoimmune diseases for kids. So, yeah, their obesity, child obesity, off the roof.

• 1:00:26Rich Roll?

  And...

• 1:00:30Rich Roll?

  How do you feel about the prognosis for the future? Like, are you optimistic that this can become?

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  I need to see what's gonna be the impact. Maybe what I'm gonna do is gonna inspire other people to do more stuff locally. Because when you see big bodies like a Facebook page or someone who's a certain level of celebrityhood do that, people will follow. And I think we can judge that kind of impact in a four or five years from now.

• 1:01:02Rich Roll?

  Right, so it's cool that you, I mean, look, you have this insane social media profile, like 10 million followers on Twitter, like millions on, I don't even know what the numbers are. They're all in the millions, though. And you've made this choice to leverage that for this good, this passion that is now coming to your life. And I think with your sort of pedigree, not only as a cardiologist, but as a media figure, you're perfectly positioned and very uniquely positioned. I don't know if there's anybody else who could bring voice to this in the way that you are.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  Well, I hope I will smoke them out. I mean, I wanna mention a friend of mine here. His name is Khalid bin Walid. He's an amazing, he's a Saudi royalty. And he is one of the, he's another Arab prominent vegan. And maybe he will help me.

• 1:01:55Rich Roll?

  And there's Prince Khalid, right?

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  That's him.

• 1:01:58Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's him. Okay, so I got lost in the.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, are we talking about the same person?

• 1:02:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, okay, yeah, no, I know exactly who he is. So he's, he's been investing exclusively in plant-based oriented startup businesses. And it's pretty cool. I'm trying to get him on the podcast as well. Because I think what he's doing is really remarkable. And he, you know, like yourself, has the ability to really move culture in a profound way. And I think past that, you've got to get more doctors on board. You know, the people that the average person is going to, to see, right, needs to be mimicking the message that you're putting out there.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:02:35Rich Roll?

  So what's next?

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  Next, well, for the plant-based, hopefully that video, these videos will actually make a change. And hopefully I will find investors in the Middle East and in here to bring more, not just awareness, but tools to make people.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  Sustain that kind of diet and that kind of lifestyle. And there is money to be made. You know, it's not gonna be like, alright, eat fruits and vegetables. There is ways to make money for those investors in a good way in making people maintain that kind of health. So I have like a number of business plans for that. On a personal level, I'm trying, you know, I'm starting this comedy residency in New York. I'm gonna be there for three weeks, performing in New York. Hopefully, that will turn into a one hour special. And maybe that will be my, the beginning of, you know, having a place for me in the American media scene.

• 1:03:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So you're balancing these two kind of careers or professions that overlap at times, but are also their own unique things. And I would imagine, you know, what the original impetus for you to go into medicine was to be a healer of some sorts, right? And now, because of this media experience that you've had, you have the ability to heal on a level that you could never have if you were just operating person by person.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:04:03Rich Roll?

  Right? And there's an interest, like, I'm interested in how the skill set overlaps or is distinct with respect to being a surgeon, which is a very practical but precise skill set. And then there's comedy, which also requires a very specific level of precision in order for it to work.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  And which comes-

• 1:04:26Rich Roll?

  Like, how do these two things inform each other?

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Well, the one thing that I got from medicine is dedication, not giving up easily, being a nerd, study. Because this is what comedy is about, is about studying, by the way. It's actually like-

• 1:04:45Rich Roll?

  So you grew up watching, like, American television?

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

• 1:04:49Rich Roll?

  So what were the shows?

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Frasier, Friends, Seinfeld, The Muppet Show.

• 1:04:56Rich Roll?

  And where, as a child, did you find yourself trying to deconstruct them to try to understand how the comedy worked?

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:02Rich Roll?

  So the comedy thing, that was always with you. I mean, you like to say, I've heard you in other interviews, and you're like, well, this all came out of the blue. I was a surgeon, like, who would have thought, or whatever, but- Really, you know, in your heart of hearts, that was there.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  Maybe, but like, a lot of people watch comedies and they try to deconstruct them, but not everybody has a chance to actually.

• 1:05:21Rich Roll?

  I don't know. Most people just watch them and they don't think about it that much. Yeah. So, all right. So Frasier.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  Just like maybe the nerd in me.

• 1:05:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. But then Jon Stewart comes along.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Jon Stewart, then Colbert, and then that changed like my, my, my perception of comedy. Absolutely.

• 1:05:36Rich Roll?

  So when you came to the United States and you were a guest on the Jon Stewart Show, I mean, that must have been an insane moment of thinking like, how did my life get to this place?

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  Imagine you being on your dream show as a guest and everybody in America and back home watches you. That is something amazing.

• 1:05:56Rich Roll?

  And the Venn diagram continues to overlap because he's, you know, he's got the animal sanctuary, he's a huge farm sanctuary supporter, him and his wife, and, you know, he's, as far as I know, he's eating a vegan diet these days.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  I hope he is.

• 1:06:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Do you, are you in contact with him?

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  We are, we are. And I know that like he started that a few years ago because of his wife.

• 1:06:14Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  And he's doing great. And I hope that we, our path will cross again into the plant-based thing.

• 1:06:23Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. I do a lot of talks at conferences, you know, a lot of veg fests and things like that. But I've spoken at a lot of medical conferences, medical oriented conferences. And what I noticed is that a lot of these doctors get up and they, they convey tremendous information. But they're not exactly schooled in the art of how to move an audience.

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:51Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like, they, they, they sort of intuit it as if they're giving a lecture to a classroom of medical students. It's very information-based. And I've often thought, and I've had many conversations with other, other doctors, saying, look, you, you gotta learn how to like move these people. You gotta take them on an emotional journey so that the information that you're conveying, which is so important and life-changing and culture-changing, can really land and make an impact. And I think you're somebody who not only understands that, but I think could really make a huge impact.

• 1:07:27Rich Roll?

  On that kind of circuit of keynote speakers in that space. Like, is that something that you've started to do?

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  I hope so. I mean, like, I didn't get the chance yet to speak that, like, to speak about that openly. But I hope that the videos that I will do will be a start.

• 1:07:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  And I hope that, like, I'll continue speaking to people live, not just in America, but also back in the Middle East. Because that's important. And this is why we're having this live videos, because I want people to understand what is happening. I want them to see that there's another reality, other than just like you eating meat and dairy. And I want them to see that, like, there is a reason why you're feeling tired, why you're feeling exhausted, why you're having these diseases. It's, we have been brainwashed, like the media does even on a political.

• 1:08:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it all goes back to that again. It pushes that same button of understanding, like, look, the information you've been fed may not be correct. It's time to step outside of that box, think more independently, think more critically, speak truth to power. Really look at the research that is validated and help people to understand that there is a different way.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah. And this is why, that's why a lot of people, like, kind of like when they, they, they, they resist what is not common for them. They resist what's not, what is uncomfortable for them. So whether that is like a political, religious narrative, or it's gonna be a nutrition narrative. Maybe it's even more difficult, because you're being fed that kind of narrative from an early age. You have a mother, it's like, what should I, am I supposed to feed my kid now? Like, what do you mean? I'm not gonna give him milk, and then I'm gonna make his bone weaks, and then there's a lot of guilt. Because a lot of people may resist you, they're not like evil or anything, but they wanna do the best for their children.

• 1:09:21Rich Roll?

  But if you can bring that satirist wit to this space, that would be unique and new, right? Because that's what you found in your previous vocation, to be the sweet spot of getting people to think differently, right? You have to bring humor into it. You have to, like... You know, hit, hit a button that relates to their own personal experience that gets them to shift that prism of perspective. And if you can do that in a health context, I think that opens up, you know, the keys to the kingdom.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely.

• 1:09:51Rich Roll?

  So you gotta put together like a one hour, like you're, I know you want to do a one man show on comedy, but you gotta do your one man show for

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  Plant Based Diet.

• 1:09:59Rich Roll?

  Plant Based Diet in the health community, you know what I mean?

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Maybe I would.

• 1:10:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  Maybe I would.

• 1:10:03Rich Roll?

  And then just go, you know, I mean, you should, you should speak at the Plantarian event and there's many other events like that too.

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  I will tell Scott, maybe he'll put me on the plan.

• 1:10:11Rich Roll?

  You should, man, it would be good.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:14Rich Roll?

  Um, cool. So, uh, what else do you want to talk about?

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  Oh, I, I want to talk about you because this is what like my, like the people, like I, I want you to give me like, I know that you've said this like a hundred times before, but like this is something going to be very inspiring back home in Egypt and in the Middle East. What, what happened? Like, how come like, you know, is it still on? I'm just gonna make sure. Oh, yes.

• 1:10:40Rich Roll?

  Is it still beaming?

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it is, it is. Okay, good. So what, what is, what made you change? What, what were you, what were, what was happening to you at the time that made you, or I said, I'm gonna change my, my lifestyle right now?

• 1:10:57Rich Roll?

  I think pain.

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  Pain.

• 1:10:59Rich Roll?

  You know, pain. Pain's the only thing that's really, truly motivated me to change any of my errant ways or, or behaviors. Um, and I thought a lot about, you know, I get asked that question a lot. Um, I think that change is available to us all the time. It's a choice that we can always make. Uh, it's just easier to make that choice when you're in pain. And I think that the decision to change my relationship to food came on the heels of a decision, uh, some years prior to get sober. Like a big part of my story is, is, is a, is a battle with alcoholism. And I had that, um, that moment of reckoning,

• 1:11:40Rich Roll?

  that, that moment of clarity that you hear about from people that are in recovery where enough was enough and I was ready to accept help and, and, and change. Um, and that was a very painful moment, but that decision changed my life so dramatically in so many unbelievable ways, uh, that when I had this health scare moment,

• 1:12:02Rich Roll?

  It felt very similar to that day that I decided to get sober. And so I, I think what, what it did is it allowed me to have a greater awareness of the significance of these kinds of moments that I think are visited upon all of us in some way, shape or form. And that if we are present enough and have enough self-awareness, we're able to recognize as pivotal, can be pivotal moments that can change our life. And so when I had that scare, it felt very visceral and real and similar to that other experience. And I thought, this is happening again. I'm, I'm being given another opportunity to change my, my life in a way that I think could lead me in a direction that I can't conceptualize right now, but certainly will

• 1:12:47Rich Roll?

  be better than how I'm living right now. So that was kind of what was going on in my mind at the time. But, but at the same time, like I was fifty pounds overweight, like I said earlier, I was semi-depressed. I was pretty unenthusiastic about this life that I'd worked very hard to create. And at the time, if you were to look at my life from the outside in, it looked pretty good. Like I had a great career as a lawyer. I had a fancy sports car. I'd met my wife. We were building a family. We were living in a beautiful home. My career trajectory was on the upswing. Like everything was solid. But on the inside, I felt like I was living somebody else's life.

• 1:13:31Rich Roll?

  So I was having this existential crisis about what I was doing with myself. And that just happened to kind of overlap and coincide with this health scare. So it was like this perfect storm of events that crashed into each other that I think put me in a position to really reevaluate top to bottom how I was living. And that set in motion a series of events and behaviors and actions that have led me to this point. But it took a long time and it wasn't linear. You know, it wasn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I didn't just get struck vegan like you and immediately, you know, go cold turkey and do it perfectly. Like it took me a while to get a handle on it.

• 1:14:12Rich Roll?

  And then the whole advocacy and kind of career path that I'm on now, that came much more gradually. I mean, it's been, you know, 10 years of, of working on that to get to this point.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  And, and you did some incredible feats like.

• 1:14:30Speaker 02

  Doing all of these crazy races.

• 1:14:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:33Speaker 02

  You did like uh Ironman, like five Ironmans in one week? Is that true or a myth?

• 1:14:38Rich Roll?

  So, no, it's true.

• 1:14:40Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:14:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that happened. So, so what happened was, to kind of back it up, was when I ended up adopting what I later found out was called a whole food plant-based diet.

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:14:51Rich Roll?

  Um, I felt a lot better pretty quickly, like within seven to 10 days, I felt like a different human being. And I suddenly had this resurgence of vitality and energy. Um, and I actually wanted to be physical with myself again and move my body for the first time in a very long time. I had been a swimmer in college and in high school, so being an athlete was part of my life, but it was a chapter that was very much in the past. And I got interested in revisiting that again, and I just was reconnecting with myself. Um, and that felt good. I had no designs on returning to becoming a competitive athlete. Um, but I had a couple of experiences early on in my kind of fitness renaissance that

• 1:15:33Rich Roll?

  led me to believe that uh perhaps I, I had some proclivity in this area. And because my changed relationship with food uh had, had created such amazing results in such, such a short period of time, it started getting me thinking about human potential in general and our ability to kind of be blind to the truth. And when we kind of realize that something that was right in front of us could have such a profound impact on our ability to navigate our experience, I started thinking about other areas of my life that perhaps I'd been blind to. And because alcoholism had really short-circuited my athletic career in college, I think I felt some unfinished business there. I had something I wanted to prove to myself.

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:16:19Rich Roll?

  And so that's what motivated me to get into the world of ultra-endurance sports. But really, it was a spiritual journey of trying to Struggle with and answer some questions that would help resolve this existential crisis that I was having because training for these things is so all-consuming and so exhausting that it strips you down to the very core of who you are until you're able to see yourself exactly as you are and not through the veneer of denial. And that was my experience and ultimately along the way, yes, I was able to do five Ironmans on five Hawaiian islands in seven days. I competed at a very high level in a race called Ultraman, which is a three-day double

• 1:17:02Rich Roll?

  Ironman distance triathlon, 320 miles, circumnavigates the Big Island of Hawaii, and was pretty competitive at that race in my mid-40s. And that got some media attention because here was this guy who was a corporate lawyer who, you know, not so long prior had been, you know, sitting on the couch eating cheeseburgers and now was doing very well in a discipline that was brand-new to him and he was doing it without eating any animal products whatsoever. And so people were interested in how could that be possible? And that's sort of led to the books that I've written and, you know, the advocacy that I do today.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  That's amazing. And you're, may I ask your age now?

• 1:17:43Rich Roll?

  Fifty-one. He's fifty-one. He's fifty-one. He's putting all of us here in shame. Nah. Fifty-one. It's possible for all of us. Not everybody wants to be an athlete, certainly not an ultra-endurance athlete. But I think, you know, the message that I want people to kind of take from my experience and the things that I've done is that we're all capable of much more than we allow ourselves to believe. And I think that applies across the board to our relationships with other people, our relationships to the planet, our relationships to our loved ones, our relationship to food and fitness and all of these very basic human needs.

• 1:18:28Rich Roll?

  So not everybody wants to go do five Ironmans on five Hawaiian islands, but I think everybody has capacity to be better, to live healthier, to live more fully actualized lives.

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  It's amazing. We should all follow you, man.

• 1:18:46Rich Roll?

  So.

• 1:18:46Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know, I'm 44 right now. Do you think it's too late to start the ultra thing?

• 1:18:51Rich Roll?

  No, I just, well, I started at 40. I think you could get going. I'll, I'll coach you up.

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 1:18:56Rich Roll?

  What do you wanna, well, let's sign up for a race right now. Hundred miler?

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Ah, dude, I have two knee, I have two.

• 1:19:02Rich Roll?

  You're pretty fit.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  I have two knee operations. I have like meniscus, meniscus on both sides.

• 1:19:08Rich Roll?

  Oh, he starts off with the excuses.

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  Ah, I know, I know. I mean, I'm, I'm fit in the gym, but I need to get my cardio back.

• 1:19:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so what is your, what's your fitness routine? Cause you're looking pretty jacked.

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  I, I, I, I do, I work out in the gym every day. I do like pull-ups, push-ups, uh, planks, uh, dips, uh, weights. But I need to get back on the cardio train. I need, I, I kind of, I did, I do a little bit of swimming. And I haven't trained in a long time because of my knees and I need to get back to that.

• 1:19:37Rich Roll?

  So swimming could be good for you then, cause it's easy on the knees, right?

• 1:19:40Speaker 01

  But it's not available like running. I need to get back to running.

• 1:19:43Rich Roll?

  Alright, well, here's, here's, here's the deal that I'll make with you then, right? Cause I kinda need to get back to the gym more.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:19:49Rich Roll?

  I like to be outside. I like to be on the trail. I like to ride my bike. I like to swim. It's all great, but um, not a huge gym rat. But now at 51, functional strength and uh, just strength in general has become much more important.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:20:03Rich Roll?

  Particularly uh, with respect to mitigating injury and all these other things. So I've committed to being uh, spending more time working on my strength. So if I commit to spending more time working on my strength, I'll get you, get you into the pool.

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  I will get you back in the pool.

• 1:20:19Rich Roll?

  Whatever it is. I don't wanna blow your knees out, but.

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  No, no, I'll do, I'll do the running and I'll go back, like do more swimming when I come back. But like I'm, I'm gonna actually use these three weeks in, in New York. I'm gonna be staying in Brooklyn. So I'm gonna be running there a lot.

• 1:20:32Rich Roll?

  Oh, good, man. Alright, cool. So let's wrap this up. Um, I know that in the United States.

• 1:20:40Rich Roll?

  Chronic lifestyle illness, heart disease, diabetes, these autoimmune diseases, obesity, high blood pressure, dementia, these are the epidemics of our age. We're now experiencing this in the Middle East for the first time in the history of humanity. It's not a small thing.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  It's not a small thing at all.

• 1:21:02Rich Roll?

  These are huge, huge issues that need redress. So I applaud your commitment. You're somebody, you could just be doing stand-up acts and working on your Netflix special or whatever, and you've made this choice to be of service in a very profound way to, you know, these, to your homeland and to these people that, you know, I know you feel, you have a lot of love for and feel very strongly about. So, thank you for doing that.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:21:27Rich Roll?

  And if you could leave us with just one final message of hope and perhaps something that somebody could take away from this to start implementing in their lives to make this switch.

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  I think we as humans, we are experts in putting so many obstacles between us from different places, and maybe health and food is one thing that can unite us. Maybe if we know that we are the same mortal bodies that have the same exact diseases because of the same habits, maybe we can get together in order to change these habits together. And there's nothing that can unite people much, I mean, if you think that a good dish of food can unite people, maybe good health can even unite people in a much better way.

• 1:22:12Rich Roll?

  Amen, brother.

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:22:15Rich Roll?

  Thank you, sir.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Thank you, sir.

• 1:22:17Rich Roll?

  We always end the podcast, I kind of sign it off with this tagline, peace and plants.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:22:22Rich Roll?

  So I was wondering if you would sign us off, but do it in Arabic.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  Oh, peace and plants, okay. Salam wunabetet.

• 1:22:28Rich Roll?

  How do I do it? Doesn't work?

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  Doesn't sound good in Arabic.

• 1:22:32Rich Roll?

  No? Does that translate directly?

• 1:22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, but like maybe salam uchdar, maybe like peace and vegetables actually sounds better.

• 1:22:39Rich Roll?

  Okay, all right. Say that again.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  Salam uchdar.

• 1:22:42Rich Roll?

  Salam uchdar.

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  Uchdar.

• 1:22:44Rich Roll?

  Uchdar.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  Uchdar.

• 1:22:46Rich Roll?

  All right, I'm never gonna get that.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:22:48Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Me again, will you?

• 1:22:49Rich Roll?

  Thank you, my friend. I will.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:22:51Rich Roll?

  All right, cool. So if you want to connect with Bassem, the best way to do that is on probably on one of his social media platforms. Or listen to my podcast, Remade in America. Remade in America. That's right. We didn't even talk about that. That's exciting, man. Yes. You've come out of the gate strong with that. Yeah. It's pretty cool. It is. So, yeah, everybody listen to that. Bassem Youssef, Bassem Youssef on all the social media platforms. Pretty easy guy to track down and find, right? Thank you, yes. Cool. Thanks, man. Thank you so much.

• 1:23:22Rich Roll?

  Good dude, that Bassem. Crazy story. What an incredible human being. Oh, my Lord. Do me a favor, let Bassem know what you thought of today's conversation. Hit him up on Instagram, at Bassem Youssef, on Twitter, at B Youssef. Watch his documentary, Tickling Giants. Check out his podcast, Remade in America. And don't forget to check out the show notes on the episode page on my website to extend your experience of this conversation beyond the earbuds. Another reminder, I'm doing a live screening and live podcast event, August 23rd at the Royal Limley Theatre in West LA. We are going to be screening the new documentary, Running for Good, The Fiona Oakes Story, followed by a live podcast with me and the film's director,

• 1:24:05Rich Roll?

  Keegan Coon, who you know from Cowspiracy and What the Health, as well as Fiona Oakes in person herself. It's going to be amazing. Tickets are available. Check out the show notes on the episode page. There's a link there. Also, click on appearances on my website and you'll find another link there. If you are looking for nutritional guidance beyond a typical cookbook experience or food blog, check out our meal planner, meals.richroll.com. We've got thousands and thousands of plant-based recipes, totally customized based on your personal preferences. We have unlimited grocery lists. We have grocery delivery in most US cities. We have amazing customer service and support. People who really know what they're talking about, available to you seven days a week to answer whatever questions you have.

• 1:24:50Rich Roll?

  And all of this is available to you for just $1.90 a week when you sign up for a year. We really love this program. Super proud of it. We've been doing it for a little over a year at this point. Over 250,000 plant-based meals served last year. Again, what I'm most proud of is that it's just $1.90 a week. Super affordable. To learn more and to sign up, go to meals.richroll.com or click on Meal Planner on the top menu at richroll.com. If you would like to support my work, just tell your friends about it. Share your favorite episode with your buddies or on social media. Hit that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or Google Podcasts or on whatever platform you enjoy this. Subscribe to my YouTube channel. No video for this episode, but most of my episodes are videoed.

• 1:25:33Rich Roll?

  And you can also support me on Patreon at ritual.com/donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes and interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margot Lubin for graphics. Reese Robinson for photos and portraits and theme music as always by Analemma. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here in a couple of days with a great midweek conversation with Chinese medicine doctor Colin Houdon and Ayurveda expert Jennifer Ayers. And after that, next week's show is with vegan bodybuilder Nima Delgado. That's coming Sunday night. It's going to be amazing. Until then, be well, do good. Peace, plants.