Oprah and Bruce Willis' Wife Emma on Finding Strength, Hope & Yourself in Caregiving

Emma Heming Willis is a former model and now entrepreneur and author who joins The Oprah Podcast to discuss her new book “The Unexpected Journey: Finding Hope and Purpose on the Caregiving Path.” It’s the book Emma says she wishes she had when she and her husband, legendary actor Bruce Willis, faced his frontotemporal dementia diagnosis. Emma shares with Oprah why “The Unexpected Journey” is a guide to navigating the complicated, heartbreaking, and transformative experience that is caregiving. When Bruce Willis was diagnosed in 2022, the couple was given a pamphlet and told to check back in a few months. With no hope or direction, Emma walked out of the doctor’s office frozen with fear, confusion and a sense that her world had just fallen apart. How would she care for her husband while parenting their young daughters and protecting her family’s privacy? Emma interviewed the world’s top dementia and caregiving experts to share their expertise in the book. Oprah and Emma are also joined by two women who have been through the caregiving process – they share their challenges and learnings. Buy the book! https://amzn.to/45HIYxT https://maketimewellness.com/?srsltid=AfmBOorTxnB-LpkrVXckskht9lBXlfgm8nt1vRjSCqJaQlCbuS4mco1Q https://maketimewellness.com/?srsltid=AfmBOorTxnB-LpkrVXckskht9lBXlfgm8nt1vRjSCqJaQlCbuS4mco1Q%20 Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/@Oprah?sub_confirmation=1 Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/ https://www.instagram.com/oprah/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Hello and thank you. Thanks for joining me on this Oprah podcast. It's wonderful having you here where we're talking about things that I believe matter in the world. And it is my hope that the conversations that we're having are impactful for your life. That's, that's why I'm doing it. Listen to this. It is estimated that 40 million people in the United States alone are caregiving for a family member. And that number is on the rise. So chances are that most of you watching or listening will one day be faced with caring for a spouse, if you're not already, or caring for an elderly parent, if you're not already, or a child.

• 1:12Oprah Winfrey?

  We know from research that caregiving can have significant emotional, physical and financial impacts on those who are taking on that huge responsibility. And I'm joined by someone who knows this all too well. Her new book, The Unexpected Journey, chronicles her story of caring for her husband, actor Bruce Willis, who was diagnosed with frontotemporal dementia in 2023. Welcome, Emma Heming-Willis.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  It's nice to see you.

• 1:41Oprah Winfrey?

  To the tea house.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me. My name is Emma Heming-Willis, and my husband Bruce Willis was diagnosed, sorry, with frontotemporal dementia in the fall of 2022.

• 1:52Oprah Winfrey?

  In 2023, Emma Heming-Willis and her family released a statement announcing her husband, one of America's favorite action heroes and adored Hollywood movie star Bruce Willis, was diagnosed with frontotemporal dementia, or FTD.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  FTD is a very difficult and unkind diagnosis.

• 2:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Doctors say FTD is a rare type of dementia that affects the frontal and temporal lobes of the brain and can slowly change a person's cognitive abilities, their behavior, or their ability to speak. The Willis family statement read, "Challenges with communication are just one symptom of the disease Bruce faces."

• 2:33Speaker 03

  Our family is in a unique position to raise awareness, and I knew that we needed to be a part of the long-term solution.

• 2:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Emma is a former model and actress, now a wife, mother, author, and advocate. She has written a new book sharing her experiences as her husband Bruce's caregiver. It's called "The Unexpected Journey: Finding Strength, Hope, and Yourself on the Caregiving Path." Emma begins the book with a heartfelt message for readers and caregivers. She says, "My hope is that this book can be a lifeline for you." And I know so many of you who are listening and watching us today are caregivers who need a lifeline. I really appreciate what you said, writing this book, that it is the book that you wish that someone had placed in your hands

• 3:23Oprah Winfrey?

  as you were getting the diagnosis for Bruce.

• 3:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:28Oprah Winfrey?

  And I want to talk about that day and the day after. But first, I hope you don't mind if we start with the part of the book where you focus on your love story, how it all started.

• 3:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I met Bruce at our trainers, Gunnar Peterson.

• 3:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Uh huh.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  And, you know, we, our times started sort of overlapping, and I got to know him. And I got to see just what a down-to-earth, humble person he was.

• 4:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:02Speaker 03

  So our relationship didn't really take off until many years later, actually. And then our paths crossed again.

• 4:11Oprah Winfrey?

  So that first meeting, nothing happened. Then you met him years later.

• 4:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:17Oprah Winfrey?

  And he invited you to a weekend with his, with his family?

• 4:22Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, it wasn't a weekend. It was come celebrate New Year's with us.

• 4:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, come celebrate New Year's.

• 4:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, Turks and Caicos. Come out for a week with my ex-wife, her husband at the time, and my three daughters. And I was like, whoa.

• 4:38Oprah Winfrey?

  That's a lot.

• 4:39Speaker 03

  That's a lot. And I said, but thank you, thank you so much. Let's pick this up in the new year.

• 4:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 4:45Speaker 03

  And I'll see you, you know, back in New York. But he was very persistent. And my friend, a friend of mine, Ali, who was with me, was like, what are you doing? You know, like, we can change our plans. He, you know, obviously, his intentions are good. His ex-wife is there, the husband, his three children are there. You know, go outside your comfort zone a little bit. And I did.

• 5:08Oprah Winfrey?

  And you did. And what did you discover on that trip?

• 5:11Speaker 03

  I discovered what an incredible family man he was.

• 5:17Oprah Winfrey?

  You got to see him interact with his daughters?

• 5:19Speaker 03

  With his daughters, I got to see him, you know, the interaction between him and Demi and the new husband. And I just thought, like, how modern and how great.

• 5:33Speaker 03

  And it really sort of just changed my whole thinking of him and who he was.

• 5:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, yeah. And it's so interesting, because I was reading this, and I was sharing this with the producers. I said, you know, I always felt that I was not going to have children. So I never looked at any man thinking, oh, he will be, he will be a good father, or he will be good with children. But when you saw him with the children, you thought, oh, this is the kind of man I would want to have children with.

• 6:01Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 6:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Or to be the father of my children.

• 6:04Speaker 03

  Exactly right. It was like to see the test run. And the test run was good. I was like, I could see myself with someone like that.

• 6:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Bruce Willis is a father to five daughters, Bruma, Scout, and Tallulah, with actress Demi Moore, who we'll hear from a little bit later. And he and Emma have two girls, Mabel and Evelyn. And the things that you've, you mentioned that really made him even more attractive to you is that you felt that he was a gentleman and that he was good with the tip. I love a man.

• 6:34Speaker 03

  Very generous.

• 6:34Oprah Winfrey?

  That understands how to tip.

• 6:36Speaker 03

  He's very generous. You know, Bruce worked in the service industry. Prior to being an actor. And he relied on those tips. And, you know, that's always sort of been embedded in my mind of always be generous. Always be generous. Always be generous. So he was a great tipper. And I love that about him.

• 6:55Oprah Winfrey?

  And you all have now been married 16 years and you have two daughters, Mabel, who's 12, and Evelyn, who's 10.

• 7:02Speaker 03

  So they just had birthdays, 13 and 11.

• 7:05Oprah Winfrey?

  13 and 11, okay.

• 7:06Speaker 03

  Yep, pre-teens and a teenager.

• 7:08Oprah Winfrey?

  So what was he like before the illness as a husband and a father?

• 7:14Speaker 03

  I mean, as a husband, just

• 7:18Speaker 03

  everything that I could have dreamed of. I mean, honestly, like Bruce, you know, I wanted the white picket fence. I wanted the two children. That was the dream. And Bruce really gave that to me. He really did. And, you know, as a father, just so fun. You know, if he was in charge of those kids, they'd be sleeping in, going to the beach, missing school, going to Disneyland. He was just a fun guy. Like, you know, his whole thing was that he always put his children first. And with that, like through that lens now, that's how I navigate my world today. What would Bruce want?

• 8:00Oprah Winfrey?

  What would Bruce want?

• 8:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. What would he want for his daughters?

• 8:03Oprah Winfrey?

  So you write that before he was diagnosed that you knew something was off. And one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you is because I thought you did such an excellent job, actually, in providing a toolkit for other caregivers. It's not just your story, but it's what you learned as a result of having to go through this journey that you're still on and being able to offer what you've learned to other people, which is what, you know, the best thing that you can do. Maya Angelou always says, "When you learn, teach; when you get, give." And that's what you're actually doing in The Unexpected Journey. In Chapter 1 of The Unexpected Journey, Emma writes of Bruce's symptoms.

• 8:44Speaker 03

  I can't pinpoint exactly when it started. It's very gray. But at some point, our relationship began to feel off. And there seemed to be a lot of miscommunications between the two of us. I was often annoyed with Bruce. Chaos was building in our home, and life felt increasingly unmanageable. Over time, I began to suspect that the issue wasn't Bruce's hearing or a rocky patch in our marriage. And that instinct made me realize that we should go to the doctor. In simple terms, for Bruce, it started with speech and spread. I finally understood that those crazy marital issues were not Bruce.

• 9:27Speaker 03

  Neither were those off moments and subtle shifts in his personality. They were the result of his brain being dismantled, taking part of the husband I knew and loved with it.

• 9:38Oprah Winfrey?

  So this is to help those of you who are going through it, or will have to go through it, or who have experienced it. As I said when I first met Emma today, that I think this is going to be so liberating for so many people. And at some point, you saw that his behavior started to change, but you didn't have a name for it, or didn't know what to call it. So tell us what you first started to notice.

• 10:04Speaker 03

  I mean, for me, it's like, it's very gray, and it is a hard question to even answer. You know, it's hard for me to know where Bruce stopped and where his disease started to kick in.

• 10:15Oprah Winfrey?

  But what did you start to notice?

• 10:17Speaker 03

  You know, for Bruce, it was language.

• 10:19Oprah Winfrey?

  It was language?

• 10:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. He was diagnosed with primary progressive aphasia, which is also known as PPA, it's a subvariant of FTD. So for him, it was, it was language. But also, you know, in our marriage, I started realizing that like, we weren't aligning on things like we used to. Conversations that we had, he wasn't recalling. And our values just didn't seem to be matching anymore.

• 10:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Can you give us an example of the language issue?

• 10:51Speaker 03

  I mean, you know, so Bruce had a stutter when he was a child, like a severe stutter. And when he went to college, he met someone that helped him sort of get a handle, quote unquote, on his stutter. And that was to go into a drama class. And what he realized is that when he memorized these scripts, that he could recite them without stuttering. So Bruce has been able, you know, I think, over the years, from college and on, he has always been a person that stuttered. He's just known how to handle the stutter. What I noticed was that his stutter started coming back. And I just thought that was interesting.

• 11:34Speaker 03

  But never in a million years would I think that that was... A symptom of a young onset dementia.

• 11:42Oprah Winfrey?

  And so at one point, you even thought, gosh, are we losing connection as a husband and wife? I mean, should I think, did you ever think about divorce?

• 11:52Speaker 03

  I 100% thought about divorce, yes. Because I just didn't understand how our relationship was so, we were so connected. We were so enmeshed. And yet, all of a sudden, things just started falling apart and...

• 12:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Would you argue more? Would you have misunderstandings?

• 12:12Speaker 03

  I was just annoyed with him. I just didn't understand what was happening. I didn't understand the conversations that we were having.

• 12:19Speaker 03

  And we just weren't aligned. And I didn't know why. And he wasn't raising his hand about anything. And I did contemplate divorce because I just didn't...

• 12:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Because how long had this gone on, Emma?

• 12:36Speaker 03

  Oh, my goodness. You know, a couple of years, I would say.

• 12:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Really? Okay.

• 12:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. But again, I would have never known that that was a young onset dementia that was on the table.

• 12:49Oprah Winfrey?

  So when did you finally, when did you, you or he decide, let's go get a diagnosis? Or something is so off that we now need to get this checked?

• 12:59Speaker 03

  I just knew something was, something wasn't right. Something wasn't right. I knew it was time that I needed to raise my hand and try and be the best advocate I could for my husband and speak to his doctor.

• 13:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, I think it's important that you share what you said or how you said it or how you prepared yourself to say it. Because, listen, I know how hard it was for me to have to have the conversation with my father about you can no longer drive. I'm taking the keys away.

• 13:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:31Oprah Winfrey?

  And getting everybody else in the family to go along with that conversation. Because they were like, no, well, he can just still drive to the barber shop. Because my father owned a barber shop and it's just down the street. Or he can go to the, I go... I'm not going to put myself in a position so that he hurts himself or hurts somebody else. And I have to have everybody else on board with it. But it was a very challenging conversation for something as simple as that, you know, for which most people are going to have to go through at some point.

• 13:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it, I-

• 14:01Oprah Winfrey?

  So how did you have the conversation?

• 14:02Speaker 03

  It was a lot of smoke and mirrors. It was a lot of smoke and mirrors that I had to do in order to get Bruce to the doctor. And it was a conversation that I had with his doctor. And that I needed help to, you know, get the scans. And, um, and we were able, we were able to do that, you know? I can't remember what the conversations were. I am in my caregiving, I'm in the caregiving midst of it all. So there's a lot, everything is a little blurry around that time. But I was able to have that conversation with him. I was able to have the conversation with the doctor. And we were able to get scans that showed that Bruce's brain was changing.

• 14:45Oprah Winfrey?

  And when they came back with the diagnosis of frontotemporal dementia?

• 14:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was a year later. So the first diagnosis we had was aphasia. But what we didn't realize that was just a symptom of the disease. We didn't have a diagnosis yet.

• 15:02Oprah Winfrey?

  What I learned from reading your book is, is that everybody wants to label everything Alzheimer's, but there are many different forms of dementia. Alzheimer's is just one of them.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  That's right. So one of the experts I have in my book, Tepa Snow, I, you know, she says there's 120 different types of dementia. And when people hear dementia, they automatically think Alzheimer's. But frontotemporal dementia affects a different part of the brain. And it's not about memory. Alzheimer's is memory, but frontotemporal dementia, it affects, you know, behavior. And like for Bruce, it was language. So we, you know, got the diagnosis. And, um, I wasn't prepared for, for that diagnosis.

• 15:42Oprah Winfrey?

  What help or information were you given then?

• 15:45Speaker 03

  From the doctor?

• 15:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 15:48Speaker 03

  Not much.

• 15:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 15:50Speaker 03

  You know, I mean, I would-

• 15:50Oprah Winfrey?

  I heard you left with a little pamphlet.

• 15:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I mean, we, we got the diagnosis. I heard the diagnosis and then I remember just feeling tingles all over my body. It was like a rug had been pulled from underneath me.

• 16:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you know what frontotemporal dementia was?

• 16:08Speaker 03

  I had heard about it.

• 16:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 16:09Speaker 03

  I had heard about it. My mother's friend had frontotemporal dementia, so I remembered it in my teenage years. And I remember it sounding horrific. And throughout the years, I had heard about different forms of dementia and FTD always sort of kind of came up. And I remember a neurologist saying, but yeah, boy, that's the one you don't want. You don't want that one. So that day when we went in for our diagnosis appointment, I was not prepared for that FTD diagnosis.

• 16:47Speaker 03

  And yeah, I just remember seeing the doctor's mouth move.

• 16:52Oprah Winfrey?

  You're right that it was your worst nightmare come true.

• 16:54Speaker 03

  It was my worst nightmare.

• 16:57Speaker 03

  I still can't believe it. I still can't believe it. So, yeah, you know, that day came, he gave us a diagnosis and, you know, we walked out of there with no direction, no treatment, no hope, just a pamphlet and a check back in in a couple of months. And that was it.

• 17:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you for joining me on the Oprah Podcast. When we come back, Emma shares more of what her life is like as a caregiver to Bruce Willis after this quick break.

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• 17:57Speaker 05

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• 18:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I'm joined by Emma Heming Willis, the wife of beloved movie star Bruce Willis, who was diagnosed with frontotemporal dementia. She's written a new book about her life as his caregiver, and I think it's really helpful for all caregivers. It's called The Unexpected Journey. Let's get back to our conversation. Did they tell you that it's going to get worse, that it's going to deteriorate?

• 18:40Speaker 03

  I'm sure he probably said all of that.

• 18:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, because you're now in a bed.

• 18:44Speaker 03

  I am not in my body.

• 18:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Did, at the time, Bruce understand the diagnosis? Did he understand what was happening?

• 18:52Speaker 03

  I don't think so.

• 18:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Really?

• 18:55Speaker 03

  I don't think so. I think that's kind of one of the blessings of FTD, is that sometimes people just are not able to understand. Like, he was in his disease of PPA, communication and hearing the words, you know. I don't think it landed.

• 19:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 19:17Speaker 03

  And I'm grateful for that, to be quite frank.

• 19:19Oprah Winfrey?

  That he, and even now, still, he doesn't understand the depth of what has happened or what is going to continue to happen?

• 19:26Speaker 03

  No, no. This is a progressive disease, and, no.

• 19:30Oprah Winfrey?

  He doesn't. How is he now? Can you tell us?

• 19:34Speaker 03

  I think, all things considering, I think he's OK. You know, again, it's like, FTD is just an unkind, cruel disease.

• 19:50Oprah Winfrey?

  It means your brain is actually dying?

• 19:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 19:54Speaker 03

  Your brain is degenerating, it's dying, and to have to witness it is traumatic.

• 20:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:04Speaker 03

  It's traumatic.

• 20:05Oprah Winfrey?

  And so, you describe living with this disease and the grief that comes with it as death before dying. How have you learned to live with this kind of prolonged grief?

• 20:19Speaker 03

  You just do. It is right next to me, all the time. And what I have learned about grief and this process is that, you know, I need to...

• 20:37Speaker 03

  It's important for me to be able to talk about it.

• 20:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:40Speaker 03

  It's important for me to be able to connect with my community about it. I really believe in talk therapy. That has been very helpful for me.

• 20:49Speaker 03

  So that I can process it. But the grief is very much there all the time. I'm always thinking about it.

• 20:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:58Speaker 03

  I'm always thinking about him. And, and just how awful this is for him.

• 21:06Oprah Winfrey?

  So it degenerates to the point where he, he, is he no longer able to take care of himself? He's no longer able to function?

• 21:14Speaker 03

  That, that is the disease.

• 21:16Oprah Winfrey?

  That is the disease.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  That is the disease. The disease progresses where you will no longer be able to care for yourself.

• 21:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:25Speaker 03

  Like many forms of dementia, right? I mean, it is a progressive disease.

• 21:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 21:29Speaker 03

  Until there is a treatment, this disease will always win. And it, it, it is progressive. And I think that was something that was really important for me to learn.

• 21:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:39Speaker 03

  Is that it's not going to get better. And what can I do to add that support around me?

• 21:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, so you were told by a doctor that caregivers actually die at a rate of 63%. I was so shocked for that number. Higher than people their same age who are not caregivers. That's number one. That's alarming to say the least. Did the doctor explain why?

• 22:08Speaker 03

  Because caregivers don't have time to care for themselves, right? They are looking after their person. They are handling the medications, the doctor's appointments, the household. If they have young children, they're parenting. They are not thinking about themselves in any way.

• 22:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:25Speaker 03

  And when I had learned that statistic, Bruce's neurologist had pointed that out to me. It was alarming. It is what woke me up. And I thought to myself, well, I'm not going to have my children lose both of their parents. You know, I need to, I need to figure out what to do next.

• 22:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, and so what about the telling of the friends? How did you, I mean, the difference, you do state in the book that the only difference between you and everyone else who's going through this is that you are with a person who is, you know, well-known, is a celebrity in the world. But when it comes to the actual caregiving and all the things that come with this disease, there is no difference between you and anybody else, except that people know his name and we don't know the names of all the other people.

• 23:12Speaker 03

  Absolutely, it levels the playing field.

• 23:14Oprah Winfrey?

  It levels the playing field. It does. And so, when you start to tell other people, I love the point that you made in the book is that people need to learn what it is themselves. It's not up to you to have to explain to everybody what it is. And that it would be appreciated on the part of the caregiver if people would get their own information.

• 23:35Speaker 03

  A hundred percent. And that's what I learned, right? I was the one giving out all the information all the time. And it's like, it's even hard for me to explain what FTD, you know? People still look at me like, what are you even saying?

• 23:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 23:47Speaker 03

  And I spent so much time trying to explain what it is and trying to, you know, have people try and understand it.

• 23:52Oprah Winfrey?

  Would you even give them the pamphlets?

• 23:54Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, you know, I'd print stuff out to like have them read. But then that's what I, you know, learned is that, you know, your friends and family need to educate themselves. I think it's really important so that they can understand how they can best show up for you.

• 24:09Oprah Winfrey?

  And another point that you made that I really appreciated in the book is that people always say, "Call me if you need anything," or "Let me know if you need anything."

• 24:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:18Oprah Winfrey?

  And you were saying, instead of saying, "Let me know if you need anything," just do the thing.

• 24:24Speaker 03

  Just do the thing.

• 24:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Do the thing.

• 24:26Speaker 03

  Tell me what you can do.

• 24:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 24:28Speaker 03

  Or here is, you know, what I would love for caregivers to do. It takes a little bit of busy work for them, but, you know, what are the things that you do in a week? You know, what, that you don't need to do that you could just allocate for some, for someone else to do it? You know, if it's picking up the medication, if it's going to the grocery store, if it's taking my car to get the tank filled, you know, here is a list of the things that... I would love for you to help with.

• 24:55Oprah Winfrey?

  Or somebody to help me with, yes.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  Someone.

• 24:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 24:57Speaker 03

  Because caregivers are doing all of this on their own and they're just hearing these things of just, oh, let me know, let me know. Caregivers aren't thinking of like, they're just, they're too wrapped up. They're too wrapped up. And I think it's really important that friends and family step in.

• 25:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, I appreciated the moment that you share when your stepdaughter Scout came to you and said, "I'm more worried about you than I am about Dad."

• 25:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you were so run down from not taking care of yourself. And those of you who are listening who are caregivers, God may, you know, may God and all the angels bless you. Because until you've done it, nobody really understands what it is.

• 25:39Speaker 03

  No, they don't. They think, um, they think it's something different and that, yeah. So, yeah, that was another wake-up call for me. And, you know, if Scout's telling me that she's more worried about me than her own father, I was like, oh, my goodness, I am losing it. I need to get myself together. But I didn't, I didn't know how to ask for help. I didn't know how to raise my hand. I didn't know that you could.

• 26:03Oprah Winfrey?

  And so that is what the Unexpected Journey, a great deal of it is about, is about being, first of all, open to asking for help, but most importantly, knowing you're not going to get through it alone.

• 26:16Speaker 03

  You can't get through it alone.

• 26:17Oprah Winfrey?

  You can't get through it alone.

• 26:18Speaker 03

  It's not a solo journey.

• 26:19Oprah Winfrey?

  So start looking for ways that you can bring more help into your life space. I mean, obviously, you and Bruce and your family have access to be able to have, you know, full-on healthcare. A lot of people don't, but there are so many online organizations.

• 26:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, um, it is so important to ask for help and it is so important to receive the help and...

• 26:47Oprah Winfrey?

  And I know people are saying, "Who do I ask? I don't, I don't know who to ask."

• 26:51Speaker 03

  Oh, like friends and family?

• 26:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 26:53Speaker 03

  I know. I mean, and that's, that's the thing, right? Like, I, I knew I could ask, but I didn't know that I was allowed to ask. And I think that caregivers think they're being a burden, or that it's their duty as a spouse to care for their person. And no one's going to look after them better than you can. And I, and I believe that, but it's not sustainable. Like, that's, that's the thing. And in order, this journey is long.

• 27:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  And in order to sustain that journey, you need, you need to find the support.

• 27:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Support.

• 27:26Speaker 03

  You need to bring that in, or you're going to become a statistic.

• 27:32Oprah Winfrey?

  You write that once you opened yourself up to getting help, it changed everything. Can you describe your situation before and your situation now?

• 27:42Speaker 03

  Yeah. Before, you know, I was trying to be a parent. I'm trying to care for my husband. I'm trying to keep things very quiet.

• 27:52Speaker 03

  Because I didn't want the news to get out about my husband before we were ready to share.

• 27:57Speaker 03

  And I was just trying to control all of it. And then, you know, I started to realize. I had a neurologist that said, you know, Emma, it's time. You have resources that people don't. You can get help. You can get formal care. And I really sort of dug my heels in on that, thinking like, no, I can't do that. Like, I don't, that's not going to fly.

• 28:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Why? Because you thought you had to do it yourself?

• 28:23Speaker 03

  I thought that I had to do it. You know, I think society has told me that like, it's on me.

• 28:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Like, you're a bad person if you bring in help?

• 28:30Speaker 03

  I'm a bad person. I am not fulfilling my duties as a wife if I bring someone in. But I knew that I also needed to be a parent. And I wasn't able to show up for my kids like I wanted to. And I did. I ended up bringing someone in. And... You know, it really, it changed, it changed everything for the better.

• 28:54Oprah Winfrey?

  It changed the way the rest of the family could also operate.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  Totally. And it also got me back into my original role of being his wife. You know, and that has been the biggest blessing is that, you know, there's, no one else can sit with your person and hold their hand and look at photos and, you know, listen to music and have that deep, loving connection. And, and I am so grateful that I am back to that. Because when I was a caregiver, I was not that. I was up, I was annoyed, I was angry, I was resentful, I was sad. I was out of my mind.

• 29:35Oprah Winfrey?

  You were sad because there's a thing that you talked about in the book. You discuss something you call ambiguous loss. On page 101, you write, "In chapter one, I shared all the things I loved about Bruce in the past tense, even though he's still right in front of me. I still love so much about him as he is today, but those things that disappeared without me realizing are at the core of ambiguous loss." The person is right in front of you, but they don't represent who they were. And I thought it was so great because it lets people know that, number one, that's a real thing and that's a real feeling. So what is his state now? He's still, so it's not like the kind of dementia where he doesn't recognize his family. He still recognizes you and recognizes his daughters.

• 30:19Oprah Winfrey?

  And you're able, are you able to have a conversation?

• 30:23Speaker 03

  That is what PPA takes from you, is your, is your language.

• 30:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, you, you, so you don't have the ability to speak?

• 30:30Speaker 03

  No.

• 30:31Oprah Winfrey?

  So he doesn't speak at all?

• 30:34Speaker 03

  Um, I mean, he speaks, but I don't know that it really tracks.

• 30:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, that they're real words?

• 30:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 30:42Speaker 03

  I don't think it tracks.

• 30:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And so, one of the things I remember you writing in the, you, you, you said that he's actually in a, in a blissful state.

• 30:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, Bruce isn't thinking about what happened yesterday, or what's happening right now, or tomorrow. You know, he is--

• 31:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Or what he has to do, or what's on the schedule.

• 31:02Speaker 03

  Nothing. He is so present. He is in the here and now, and it's actually really beautiful to witness. You know, I think, um, I don't like it, I don't love it. But, you know, he is, he is in his body. He is, um, he is present in his body, and he's not thinking about what's to come.

• 31:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Hmm.

• 31:23Speaker 03

  You know, I am.

• 31:24Oprah Winfrey?

  You are?

• 31:25Speaker 03

  I'm thinking about that all the time.

• 31:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay. You write on page 97 that your stepdaughter scouted, said, "Grief is the price we pay for loving someone so deeply." And I think it's really profound that you are saying that you are in the, you're in the grieving process now. I mean, I know someone who, who cared for someone for four years, and then they were afraid to, after the person died, go on with their life. And their therapist said to them, "But you've already been grieving for the past four years."

• 32:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, I've been grieving for a long time. For a very long time.

• 32:07Speaker 03

  It's not linear, you know? There's some days that I'm feeling okay, and other days that I'm not. But it's a long, it's a, it's a long process, and it's very hard to lose someone right in front of your eyes.

• 32:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Can you explain ambiguous loss?

• 32:23Speaker 03

  Um, it was coined by Dr. Pauline Boss. And it means that the person is physically in front of you, but psychologically not there. So that is a term that she's coined, and it explains exactly what happens to people and their loved ones when they're experiencing dementia. Your person is physically in front of you, but not psychologically there.

• 32:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, and I think it's also important, too, what, what, what your book reminded me is that people are so judgmental who are not in situations. And they say things like, "Well, how can you say you're grieving him when he's still here? At least he's alive, you have him," you know? And that makes you feel what?

• 33:02Speaker 03

  That makes me feel worse. It makes me feel like I'm not seen, dismissed. You know, a lot of people have opinions without an experience. And that's what I have seen and learned. And especially because, you know, we have-- Come out as we have. You know, I'm sure a lot of people will have opinions about this interview and this book because they don't have the experience.

• 33:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Aren't you glad you did come out, though?

• 33:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I did, yeah.

• 33:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Because trying to keep it a secret and whatever people would then say, not actually knowing the truth, isn't it better to have the truth out?

• 33:44Speaker 03

  Yes, it was. For us, it was really important to share what Bruce had, what he was experiencing, because I was so isolated and I wasn't putting the help and support we needed around our family because I was so scared that, I don't know, someone would talk, someone would, you know, that's, I was so worried about that. So it came to a point where it was like, nope, we, this is a must, we need to come out. I also, you know, I didn't want my kids to think that we need to talk about their dad's diagnosis in hushed tones. Like, that wasn't, that wasn't going to happen. I wanted to remove the stigma around it and we were going to talk about this diagnosis

• 34:29Speaker 03

  and we were, the kids were going to see that, like, the reach that their father has, he is so beloved.

• 34:36Oprah Winfrey?

  I'm sure pouring of affection.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  We were going to go out and we were going to talk about it and raise awareness.

• 34:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Coming up, acclaimed actress Demi Moore, who shares three grown daughters with Bruce Willis. We'll talk with Demi next.

• 35:43Oprah Winfrey?

  We're back with Emma Heming-Willis, wife and now caregiver to actor Bruce Willis, who suffers from frontotemporal dementia. Bruce's ex-wife and mother to three of his grown children, Demi Moore, is still very much present in their blended family life. Demi is about to join our conversation. I know that you were aware that my team told you that we spoke to Demi Moore recently.

• 36:10Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 36:11Oprah Winfrey?

  On this podcast and had the chance to ask her a few questions about the book and the family's experience. And this is what she said.

• 36:18Speaker 03

  Oh, great.

• 36:19Oprah Winfrey?

  What has it been like for you to watch Emma navigate becoming a caregiver to Bruce?

• 36:26Speaker 03

  There is no roadmap for how to deal with this. And, you know, the, and obviously, being the ex-wife, even though our family is very connected, is an interesting position. And so much fell on Emma to really figure this whole thing out. And the most beautiful thing, and she talks about this in the book, was recognizing the importance for caregivers that they have to take care of themselves. And that if they don't put that time into making sure that they're OK, that they then can't show up for anyone else.

• 37:11Speaker 03

  And, you know, I have so much compassion for Emma in this, being a young woman. There's no way that anybody could have anticipated, you know, where this was going to go. And I really think she's done a masterful job. She has been so dedicated to, you know, forging the right path. She's had, you know, equal amounts of fear and strength or and courage in navigating this. And

• 37:45Speaker 02

  And I'm really, you know, I think that this book is gonna really be very helpful for a lot of people who are walking through this.

• 37:52Oprah Winfrey?

  Especially caregivers, you're right, especially caregivers. How has it been for you personally to watch this moment, someone you have shared, you know, much of your life with and children with, suffer from this disease?

• 38:08Speaker 02

  I find it, it's difficult. It's hard to see somebody who was so, you know, vibrant and strong and so directed,

• 38:20Speaker 02

  shift into this, this other parts of themself. But you know, my particular perspective is, one, I really always say it's so important just to meet them where they're at.

• 38:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Don't have an expectation of them needing to be who they were, or who you want them to be. And when you do that, I find that there is an incredible sweetness and something that's soft and tender and loving. And perhaps it is more playful and childlike in certain sense because of, you know, how much more caretaking they need.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  And really, the, the, the, the most important place for me is showing up in being present, just being present. Because if you project where it's going, it only creates anxiety. If you replay where it was and what you've lost, it only creates, you know, anxiety and, and grief. And so when you stay present, there is so much, and there's still so much of Him there. And it may not always be verbal, but it is, it is, it is beautiful. Given the givens.

• 39:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Thanks, Demi, again. Thanks, thanks. Yeah.

• 39:43Speaker 03

  Beautiful.

• 39:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 39:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. But she's, she's right. It's about seeing there is beauty there.

• 39:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 39:50Speaker 03

  Right? As hard as it is to lose someone that we love, we are able to tap into what is.

• 39:58Oprah Winfrey?

  I want to go back to this point because one of the main reasons I wanted to talk to Emma today is for those of you who are going through it, I want those of you who are caregivers to feel a sense of validation in knowing that you're not alone, number one. And the other thing is to understand so fully that you can't get through it alone. You have to get help. So can you tell us again, after you, what the process of getting help was for you? And what that looked like in your life?

• 40:30Speaker 03

  The process was realizing that I wasn't being the best parent I could be. I wasn't being the best caregiver I could be to Bruce. I was rundown. It was realizing that I needed, I needed help, but I also needed someone to give me permission. And Bruce's neurologist gave me permission to think and consider help. And I, and I hope that caregivers get that in this book.

• 41:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 41:02Speaker 03

  That they can, that they understand that you don't have to do this alone. You shouldn't have to do this alone.

• 41:08Oprah Winfrey?

  I think if you get this book, read this book, that's what you will get. Because that's what I came away with. Wow, the first thing to do is to get yourself help. And no matter where you are in the process, you've probably already waited too long to actually get help.

• 41:22Speaker 03

  And that's what all the experts say.

• 41:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 41:24Speaker 03

  People wait too long to bring in help.

• 41:28Speaker 03

  Way too long. And, and that, that narrative needs to shift. And we need to be given permission that it's okay. We're not a failure. It's important to ask for help.

• 41:37Oprah Winfrey?

  And it's not your burden to have to bear alone. And I think what you shared earlier, Emma, I mean, about People wanting to do something but not knowing what to do. Look at your life and see what are the things that need to be done. Whether it's picking up groceries, whether it's going to the pharmacy, all the things.

• 41:53Speaker 03

  All the things.

• 41:54Oprah Winfrey?

  That are needed. So when you offer yourself and help to someone. I remember this is a long time ago. Maria Shriver's mother was in the hospital and had been in the hospital for a long time. And I did the thing that you say do not do. I was like, well, if you need any help, let me know. And Maria said, don't ask me what you can do to help me. Just help me. Just show up. Just show up. The thing to do is to just show up. And I learned from that that even if you just go and sit with someone.

• 42:25Speaker 03

  Oh, my goodness.

• 42:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Just to be there with someone.

• 42:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 42:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Not knowing what to say, not knowing what it is I can do. Just showing up makes a difference.

• 42:35Speaker 03

  The journey is so isolating and we isolate ourselves. And connection is so important. You know, finding your friends, finding your family, but also as a caregiver, finding your community. You know, who are your people that understand you?

• 42:48Oprah Winfrey?

  And it's so much easier to find a community now because for your specific ailment or disease, there's an online resource for it.

• 42:56Speaker 03

  It's very important to get a diagnosis. I think that is key in all of this.

• 43:01Oprah Winfrey?

  It's key because, as you'll see, when you read the unexpected journey, not all dimensions are the same.

• 43:07Speaker 03

  Not all dimensions are the same. So not all support groups are going to be the same.

• 43:10Oprah Winfrey?

  And not all support groups are the same.

• 43:11Speaker 03

  So it's important to find the association that is associated to the disease that your loved one is experiencing. And that way, you know, for me, it's the association of frontotemporal degeneration. They have been a lifeline for me. You know, they've connected me with resources. You know, they've connected me with other caregivers because FTD strikes young. And, you know, usually these families have young children. And so it's been beautiful, like, to be able to have that connection, to be able to sit down across from someone and just, they get you, they see you, they understand it. You don't have to explain it, over explain it. It's very important to find your community.

• 43:56Speaker 03

  That has been a lifeline for me.

• 43:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Speaking of explaining and oversplaining, I think you do a great job of breaking down in this book. How to talk to your children. And you talk to different, you talk to your children depending on what ages they are.

• 44:10Speaker 03

  Right.

• 44:10Oprah Winfrey?

  What you say to a five-year-old, you don't say necessarily use the same language you would be using with a 10-year-old and 14 and up is something very different.

• 44:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I didn't know that. I mean, that's why I brought specialists in to sort of help me navigate that.

• 44:25Oprah Winfrey?

  You interviewed and talked to over 25 experts, I heard.

• 44:28Speaker 03

  I did, I did, yeah. And these were all people that sort of, you know, helped me. And I gathered all this information to be able to share with the next caregiver. And, you know, for our children, Mabel and Evelyn were eight and 10 when Bruce was diagnosed. So, you know, they were very young. And what I learned is that, you know, we, I told them about the disease. And then just gave them just bite-sized information. That was right, that was age-appropriate for them. And if they wanted to know more information, then I would give them more information.

• 45:02Oprah Winfrey?

  And they couldn't pronounce it, so they called it fantastic turtles dancing?

• 45:05Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 45:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 45:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, FTD.

• 45:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 45:08Speaker 03

  And, you know, we had this vision of like, oh, these fantastic turtles dancing in their dad's head. And, you know, it was sweet and funny. But, yeah, so it's important that, what I've told them, that if anything changes with their dad and his progression, I'll let them know. You know, I don't like to give them too much information, but it's important to communicate. I communicate with my kids a lot, and I'm very honest with them. You know, you think you want to, you want to protect your kids.

• 45:42Oprah Winfrey?

  So is the way this disease works that you have periods of where things seemingly are okay for a while, and then there's another drop or decline and something else deteriorates?

• 45:54Speaker 03

  Yes, absolutely. I think anyone going through dementia understands that like you have times where things are very stable, and then the next shoe drops. And then you have to... Figure it out, what to do, how to support. And you know, we're really in, we're in one of those phases right now. Where things have been stable for a really long time. And now it's just, there's been a subtle shift. And I'm out of my mind because of it. And that's why I'm so happy I have this book, because I go back to the book and be like, what, what do I do when I'm out of my mind? Oh, yes, these are my tools. These are the resources that I can go back to. You know, I wrote that book for the next caregiver, but I am a caregiver and I am a

• 46:38Speaker 03

  person that needs that book and I need the reminders. So, um, yeah, I'm a little disconnected from my body and my brain right now, because even though I'm sitting here, my mind is with, with Bruce and how he's doing.

• 46:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Understandable, that's understandable. I thank you for taking the time out of your very busy day to join my conversation with Emma Heming-Willis. Millions of Americans are caring for a loved one. We have caregivers who have some great questions for Emma. I think you'll find them helpful. That's next.

• 47:08Speaker 06

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• 47:38Oprah Winfrey?

  I so appreciate and value you joining us here on the Oprah Podcast. I'm talking with Emma Heming-Willis, who's wife and also caregiver to Bruce Willis and mother to their two children. We're joined by other caregivers around the country who have questions for Emma. Let's get back to it. Some of our podcast listeners wanted to talk with you. Brenda joins us from Colorado and her husband Kevin was diagnosed with frontotemporal dementia just one year ago, correct?

• 48:05Speaker 03

  That is correct.

• 48:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. You are now his primary caregiver?

• 48:10Speaker 02

  I am. We are, exactly like Emma said, we're heading into a phase where I'm gonna need a little more help. My husband actually has the behavioral variant of frontal temporal dementia, and it started showing up in his work in about 2020. He was a country club manager, very buttoned up, professional, amazing leader, and he started blowing off meetings, and his behavior changed dramatically, but it wasn't all at once. I thought, like, his humor became kind of raunchy and inappropriate, he was missing his own meetings, he got feedback

• 48:54Speaker 02

  from his board and didn't really care. He wasn't, you know, working on himself like he normally would. He was eventually terminated, and then we got the diagnosis of mild cognitive decline, which I think is pretty common. But I even knew at that neurologist appointment that it was not mild. And then he went to drive a school bus, which was kind of his dream, his retirement dream, even though he was not supposed to retire yet. And a year later, I attended a meeting with him because I could tell things were not good,

• 49:36Speaker 02

  and he was fired for a whole list of grievances. He was combative, which is, he's never had a combative day in his entire life. He was using profanity, he was late for every route. It was just literally unbelievable. And I gave that letter to our neurologist, who did another MRI. His first MRI was clear, and then two years later, another MRI did show deterioration in the executive functioning, and they diagnosed him as BVFTD.

• 50:11Oprah Winfrey?

  So that's the behavioral portion, the behavioral portion?

• 50:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:15Oprah Winfrey?

  And how is he now?

• 50:17Speaker 02

  Well, he, I always say he's 20% still my husband. He's 80% an alien. He has a very different sense of humor. Part of the behavioral variant is they lose their empathy. So you can't, if you tell him your problem, or our son would, who's 27, would like say a work problem, he would make jokes about it. And he's lost his, his empathy. His, um, uh, eating behavior has changed dramatically. He's obsessed with carbs, which is very common for that, you know, M&Ms and all kinds of stuff. Uh, and you can't really, he has a kind of a hair-trigger temper now.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  Uh, I've learned very quickly to work around that and not trigger. Um, but otherwise, he thinks he's retired and he's happy. Um, much of what Emma said validated me. I feel seen and heard and I'm incredibly grateful. Um, the question I have for Emma is, how do you deal with the loneliness? Uh, like, I've never been lonely a day in my life, but I am lonely now because, you know, just like you explained, he's there but not there.

• 51:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Ambiguous loss.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  He's my partner, but not.

• 51:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:39Speaker 03

  How do I deal with the loneliness? You know, um, I think where I am lucky is that I have young children. And I am always busy with them. Um, I am parenting, I am caregiving. I, you know, I am not sometimes connected to my body so that I don't have to feel those feelings. You know, um, the loneliness, it's, it's there. And, and, and I will say that...

• 52:14Speaker 03

  I have habituated to it. I have gotten used to it.

• 52:19Speaker 03

  I know that's not an answer that you want to hear. But what I will say, the importance is, again, finding your people, finding your community, you know, so that you can talk about these things. And that you're not just ruminating on it. That I think it's so important to just vocalize these feelings and these emotions.

• 52:45Speaker 03

  Because you will meet other people that are like, yes, I am lonely too. You know, I'm sometimes just stuff my feelings. That's not healthy. I know that.

• 52:56Speaker 03

  But I think it's really important to be able to verbalize. As I tell my children, better out than in. It is so important to talk about your feelings and be heard and be validated about your feelings.

• 53:09Oprah Winfrey?

  So right now, Brenda, you are the, you said you were the primary caregiver. Do you have any help at all?

• 53:16Speaker 02

  Well, he can do a lot on his own, like dishes, and he watches TV. But I do need to come to the office. And so, next week, I just interviewed caregivers. And I found an agency that is going to send a mail. Because, like I said, Kevin has some inappropriate humor. And that person is going to take him to Botanic Gardens. Because I just feel like he's deteriorating because I'm not there during the day, at least four days a week. And so, and he's starting to make some bad decisions. The oven, undercooking food. And so, I think this will be...

• 54:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Can I just stop you for a moment? Can I stop you for a moment? There's an example you use in the book about, I don't remember who said it, about could you leave your loved one alone in the house if there was a fire? Would they be able to get out? Isn't, do you remember writing that?

• 54:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, those are the things that you have to think about. It comes down to safety.

• 54:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 54:18Speaker 03

  Right?

• 54:18Oprah Winfrey?

  If he were left alone in the house right now, there was a fire, would he know what to do?

• 54:23Speaker 02

  I believe he would, but we are, we are in a place of progression right now and so I'm not going to take any chances. I think we've been fine up until now, but I'm just seeing some warning signs that we need, we need more help. His buddies come and get him and golf with him, which is a whole, a whole thing. Very patient, wonderful guys. So he's not alone four days a week. And I, of course, you know, try to, he sleeps quite a bit. He sleeps like sometimes 15 hours. Wow. And the neurologist said that's when the brain cleanses itself and to let him do

• 55:06Speaker 02

  that. And so that reminds me of like when my baby was little, right? When they're sleeping, you don't worry as much.

• 55:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:14Speaker 03

  I'm happy to hear that you have friends that are taking your husband out to play golf. I think that's beautiful. And I'm also happy to hear that you are interviewing formal caregivers. And I, I think with this disease, it's so important to, one, you have to get out of the denial. You have to realize that it's happening. You have to understand that it is progressive and you need to be a couple of steps ahead of it. And I think that's where I have found a lot of comfort, is to be a few steps ahead, you know, to really educate myself about the disease because knowledge is a big stress reliever.

• 55:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And when you find your people, as you mentioned in the book, you find your, I think, was it somebody named Fran?

• 55:56Speaker 03

  Franny.

• 55:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Fran, Franny, that was a few steps ahead of you, then that allows you to know what's ahead and also to begin to prepare yourself, prepare yourself. Yes.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And I just want to express my gratitude, obviously, to Oprah and all that you've given and to Emma for going public because from the day you did, I've been tracking you and now I can just read your book and I don't have to Google you constantly.

• 56:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  But it has been a huge, a huge validation for me because it's not Alzheimer's and God bless the people that have to deal with Alzheimer's, but it is different.

• 56:37Speaker 03

  It's different. It strikes younger.

• 56:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Thank you, Brenda. Thank you so much.

• 56:42Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 56:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you. So Erica is joining us from Texas. Erica was a guest on our podcast with Esther Perel a while back. Erica, good to see you again.

• 56:53Speaker 07

  Good to see you too. Thank you so much for having me.

• 56:56Oprah Winfrey?

  You were wearing pink today. It was green the last time, I remember you told us. That you are the caretaker for your mother. And so I asked the producers if you could zoom in for this conversation. How has being a caregiver impacted you?

• 57:10Speaker 07

  Oh, my goodness. First of all, thank you so much, Emma, for sharing your story. Thank you, Oprah. It has impacted me in a way that I never could have imagined. Being an only child years ago, my mother went through so many different things. And I used to say to myself, oh, my gosh, you know, I've got to prepare myself financially, health-wise, because I got a feeling that I'm going to have to take care of my mom one day. And she used to always say that. She used to always say, I'm coming to live with you, coming to live with you guys. And I'd be like, oh, no, you're not, because the relationship was strained. It wasn't a good relationship at all.

• 57:50Speaker 07

  And so I got a phone call about eight years ago that my mom's behavior was weird in another state. I got in the car the next day and drove, and what I saw was shocking. I had just spoken to her. She didn't recognize me. She still had on her Sunday dress, and it was Monday. Everything was disheveled.

• 58:12Speaker 07

  Rushed her to the hospital, and they said, your mom has dementia. And I'm like, dementia? What do you mean? And two weeks later, we had to figure out what to do, and they said she can't live alone. And I turned to my husband, and I said, I don't know what to do. We were in the middle of retiring, still raising kids. Emma was saying I had a son that I was homeschooling and he was just getting ready to go in the ninth grade. And we had to bring her with us and it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare. We had to move her in. And so that same kind of behavior that I experienced as a young person, as a teen, it just seemed to escalate in our home. So like Emma said, it was hard to tell where the, where the, my mother.

• 58:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Disease, the disease?

• 58:59Speaker 07

  Exactly. I mean, she would say things and they would be like, oh, that's the disease. But I'm like, she said that to me when I was sixteen. And it just became really, really bad. And I, I don't, I don't know how to say this, but she's very religious to the point that it's, it's kind of, it makes it hard. Because everything is about, you know, the, she doesn't have dementia. God healed her. Everybody else is just not believing. She's healed. God brought her here to, you know, be a blessing to me and help me. I, I literally just, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know.

• 59:38Oprah Winfrey?

  And so what did you do? What did you do?

• 59:41Speaker 07

  I just took care of her. I just brought her in, took her to the bound doctors, like Emma found a neurologist. Got testing and they told me she had Lewy body dementia with mild Parkinson's. To my surprise, they put her on hospice in my home. So I had nurses coming, chaplains coming and I was cooking for her. I was giving her her medicine. All of this happened within a month's time. And that was eight years ago and it was so bad over about a year and a half, I had to lie to get her out of my home because it, it literally almost broke me. My husband found me in the closet, just curled up. And he's like, what's going on? I said, I feel like my life is over.

• 1:00:24Speaker 07

  I feel like I'm being, at that time I said, I feel like I'm being punished. Because she was of the mindset, you honor your mother. You know, the Bible says honor your mother and you're not honoring me and you gotta do this for me. And I, I remember driving her to form a doctor's appointment and I just could not figure, I said, what is going on with you? And she just looked at me and she just screamed, you owe me. She said, I've done everything for you. I took care of you as a child. Now you owe me. And I went, oh. Wow. And so it's been, it's been difficult, but she's, she lives on her own now. And as Emma said, if I didn't have the resources to, to help me.

• 1:01:04Oprah Winfrey?

  So you moved her out of your home, is what you did? You moved her out of your home in order to save your own sanity?

• 1:01:11Speaker 07

  Yes, saving my marriage, my relationship with my kids. Like Emma said, I, I stopped almost being a parent. I, I, it was like, okay, I, I hear you having trouble in school, but wait a minute, I gotta take grandma to the doctor. And it was just so much now, eight years later, now we can have the conversation. And I just said, I'm, I'm so sorry. I didn't know what to do, how to do it. And I did find groups. I have caregivers now that come, they take her to the doctor, they take her to church. They take her, right now she's at a hair appointment. But it's like, when I talk to her sometimes, it's, it's me that should be doing that. And she says, well, you don't take me anywhere and you're, you're just not a good daughter. And it's just so hard to, you know, to-

• 1:01:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Are you letting that guilt get to you?

• 1:01:56Speaker 07

  I, I did. I, I did. And thank God for my husband and my adult kids. Now they're like, ma, you know, you've done everything. There is nothing else. And I think the biggest piece is, you know, we talk about the old, the generation now, that entitlement. It's like, my question is, how do you reconcile when you have a parent that feels entitled? And that's the part, just the guilt of, okay, I'm doing this. And she'll say, well, why didn't you take me to get my hair done? And I would say, well, ma, I had something going on. Oh, what about me? It's always about you. And it's so hard. It's like, okay, is that dementia? Is that my mom?

• 1:02:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. It feels like whatever is going on with the disease has exacerbated whatever the relationship was before. So Emma, what do you want to say to Erica?

• 1:02:41Speaker 03

  I mean, I couldn't imagine what it would be like to be caring for someone that you have a complicated relationship with. You know, I, I can't imagine what a burden that must be for you. I, I'm, I am, I'm sorry. I am really sorry to hear that. And I can hear the guilt and the trauma and all of this, that this has brought to you. I think it's so, um, you know, she's clearly in her disease. I know that something that helped me was also like learning and- You know, it was learning to separate my husband from his disease. That, you know, what he is doing or saying is not him.

• 1:03:25Speaker 03

  It is, it is his disease. And that brought me some comfort. But I'm also really happy to hear that you knew how to care for yourself. You knew what needed to be done.

• 1:03:37Oprah Winfrey?

  After being curled up in the closet, it took being curled up in the closet to get there. But at least you got there.

• 1:03:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:43Oprah Winfrey?

  You got there.

• 1:03:43Speaker 03

  You're a mother and you're a mother first, you know. And, and, um, and I, and, but I'm, I'm really happy to hear that you, you knew how to care for yourself and, and you did the right thing that was right for you and your family.

• 1:03:56Oprah Winfrey?

  And I think, I think one of the things that you make clear in the Unexpected Journey is that a lot of people have this guilt because perhaps maybe you had a loved one who said, you know, I never want to be put in a home or I never want to be sent away or I never wanted to know or I would never, never do that. I think when you, you get to the point where there is nothing else to be done, then you have to make that, the decision that is the best for yourself. And one of the things you say in the book is that what people are really saying is, I don't want to be abandoned. I don't want to be left alone. I don't want to be forgotten.

• 1:04:35Oprah Winfrey?

  But if the best care is putting your mother in a, in a situation where she will have other caretakers and you will be able to carry on with other portions of your life, then, then you have done the best you could do. You have done the best you could do.

• 1:04:52Speaker 03

  And her needs now are being met 100% of the time. I mean, I think people don't understand that, that, that our needs are, are, are never met. Like our persons, even when we are caregiving, if we are not, we're not qualified for this job. Sometimes the disease goes beyond what we know how to care for. And, um, you know, you're just thrust into this role. And I, I think that now your mother's needs are being met so that your needs could be met.

• 1:05:24Oprah Winfrey?

  And I think that one of the things that you get when you read The Unexpected Journey is even though there is deep love and deep compassion and honor for your loved one, it doesn't mean that you have to sacrifice your entire life. That is not what is required in order to carry on. I think you've helped a lot of caregivers. That's why I say I think this is going to be so liberating for caregivers. Because if you can get the help, you should get the help. And the first thing you say over and over and over in this book is that, get yourself the help. If there comes a time, I mean, there will probably come a time when you won't be able to do all the things that you wanted to do for Bruce yourself, and you need other people.

• 1:06:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Have you brought in other people to help?

• 1:06:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, this disease takes a team. And I think that so many people are doing this on their own.

• 1:06:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Even if that means him not living with the rest of the family?

• 1:06:22Speaker 03

  This takes a team. Sometimes it means that you have to look at your house, you have to look at, is it safe for someone to be living in this house? Is it safe for me? And is it safe for our children? It is a very personal decision, and it comes down to safety. You know, it comes down to making the right decision for you and your family and for your person.

• 1:06:44Oprah Winfrey?

  And you did that, Erica. That is what you did.

• 1:06:48Speaker 07

  I had to, and it's so interesting. My grandmother suffered through dementia. She was in a nursing home the last 10 years of her life, and I watched my mother run herself into the ground, just doing everything. And I think part of that, that's what she expected me to do. But I looked at my body, my everything, and then going through what I was going through, I was going to kill myself. And I just said, I cannot do that. And like she said, they need their mom, my husband needs his wife. And I decided to do that so that I could live a longer, productive, healthier life and not end up like my mom.

• 1:07:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you. Thank you again. Thanks for talking to us again. Thank you so much. Beautiful, beautiful.

• 1:07:29Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:07:30Oprah Winfrey?

  So I've seen online that there is this outpouring of love and support from Bruce's, from all of his devoted fans, and they're all over the world. And you write this about what you believe his legacy will be. You say, "His legacy will live on through our family," and you even say that, "Even if he is known for this disease, that will be okay with you."

• 1:07:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, just as, you know, Lou Gehrig's disease is known as ALS. I think if FTD is known as the Bruce Willis disease, I think that he would be okay with that because I think that it puts a face to this disease. It will bring in, you know, more research, more funding

• 1:08:15Speaker 03

  for a disease that really, we have, we have nothing. You know, people are getting diagnosed too late to be able to go into the trials that are available. So, you know, the awareness piece of this is so important. You know, I learned from one of these, one of the experts in my book, Dr. Bruce Miller, that, you know, he's, his specialty is FTD. And he says, you know, "When you notice someone in their 40s, 50s, and 60s, when they should be stable and participating in the world, but if you start noticing that they are not who they used to be, something is off, that is a change in the brain, and that needs to be looked at." And I didn't know that early on. And I think the awareness piece is so key because

• 1:09:00Speaker 03

  we want people to be diagnosed early so that they could receive the right treatment, so that families aren't broken up in the midst of it.

• 1:09:11Oprah Winfrey?

  The other thing you say is, "His legacy will live on through our family, his work in film and music and the millions of lives he's touched. But I believe he's leaving something even more profound, something that will ripple far beyond Hollywood. His journey is shaping the conversation around FTD, dementia, and caregiving. Shifting the narrative in ways I hope will soften the experience for others walking this path."

• 1:09:38Oprah Winfrey?

  That means you, Erica, you, Brenda, and all of you who are listening to us. I know Bruce's legacy won't just be about the art he created. It will be about how he loved and how that love carries on through us. Beautifully said. You co-founded the organization Make Time Wellness. What is your most important message to caretakers?

• 1:09:59Speaker 03

  That you've got to take care of your health and you have to take care of your brain. You know, your brain is such an important asset. You know, I think that when you see someone that you love start losing parts of their brain, it really, you know, makes you sort of sit up and think, okay, what can I do for myself? And, you know, taking care of my brain, then I'm looking after my whole body. We have to look after ourselves. We have to put ourselves first because if we don't, we will not be able to sustain this and we will not be able to show up for the person that we love.

• 1:10:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you.

• 1:10:44Speaker 03

  Thank you, Oprah.

• 1:10:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you.

• 1:10:45Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 1:10:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Emma Heming Willis for sharing your unexpected journey with us. The book, The Unexpected Journey, is available September 9th, anywhere books are sold. And if you're a caretaker or you know somebody who is, I'm telling you, when you think, oh, what could I do for them? This would be the book to give to a friend who is a caregiver. It's a vital book to have on your nightstand and to share with others who are going through it. My thanks to Brenda and again to you, Erica, for sharing your own caregiving experience and all of you who are out there doing this daily, feeling unseen, unvalidated, know that you are not alone and this book is a big validation. Thank you for taking the time to be with us today. Go well.

• 1:11:29Speaker 03

  So much. Thank you.

• 1:11:31Oprah Winfrey?

  You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.