Tinashe: Broke Boys, Golf Bros & Short Kings

Join Alex in the studio for a conversation with Tinashe. Tinashe gets real about the dating patterns she’s trying to break, navigating situationships, and healing after heartbreak. She also opens up about refusing to be put in a box by the industry and building a career on her own terms. Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Cooper?

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• 1:26Alex Cooper?

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• 1:54Alex Cooper?

  What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy.

• 2:03Alex Cooper?

  Tanasha, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  Hi, thanks for having me.

• 2:06Alex Cooper?

  I am so excited to have you here. I was thinking about this on my way here. I was like, the year was 2014.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:14Alex Cooper?

  And I was a freshman in college. I had horrible extensions.

• 2:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20Alex Cooper?

  I was-

• 2:20Speaker 02

  We all did at the time.

• 2:21Alex Cooper?

  You had to. It was a rite of passage, honestly. My hair was like silver. I had really bad eyelash extensions that were like, kind of like coming off.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30Alex Cooper?

  And when Tuon came out, the pregame was never the same. Anytime I felt like, I was like, I need to feel something, I would put it on, I would get ready, and I would feel so confident going out that night. And since then, you have continued to release music that makes me feel that way. And you've also just continued, I feel like, to really navigate a difficult industry and make a name for yourself while also not losing yourself, which I'm very excited to talk to you about today.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you so much.

• 2:59Alex Cooper?

  Of course.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  That's always the goal. It's like, make the listener feel like her best self.

• 3:04Alex Cooper?

  And then when I was doing research, I was like, interested to learn that your personality, you say you're a little bit more low-key.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  I'm very low-key.

• 3:12Alex Cooper?

  And you're interested in things like aliens and the Loch Ness Monster. How did we get here? How did that start? Tell me everything.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  Um, no, that was like, that was like my elementary school fixation, like, library books. Like, I was, I was like, what are we learning about the conspiracy theories? Like, I was diving in deep from, from a young age, you know, questioning everything, very Aquarius, I feel.

• 3:35Alex Cooper?

  Are you still like that?

• 3:37Speaker 02

  I'm definitely still like that. But I'm like, not like, deep on the Loch Ness Monster. I feel like I've found out everything there is to find out at this point. They still haven't found her, so it's like-

• 3:46Alex Cooper?

  Oh, you're like a full expert. Okay, so is your For You page just like a bunch of conspiracy theories?

• 3:52Speaker 02

  No, not anymore, not anymore. It's plants, honestly. I'm like a plant mom. Big plant girl.

• 3:58Alex Cooper?

  Is your place just filled with plants?

• 3:59Speaker 02

  I have like 50 plants.

• 4:00Alex Cooper?

  What's your favorite plant?

• 4:02Speaker 02

  Oh my gosh, I can't pick a favorite. They're like my children.

• 4:05Alex Cooper?

  So is your whole house?

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, my whole house. Actually, my favorite plant is a plant that my mom's had from college, and she like propagated it time and time again. It's had babies all over town. It's beautiful.

• 4:18Alex Cooper?

  What else is on your algorithm? I'm trying to think of like, Tinashe opens her phone, I'm like, what's going on over there?

• 4:22Speaker 02

  It's so funny. My IG, whatever, is, is full plants. Like, it's so funny. Um, but yeah, I don't know, like, I like to keep it that way. I've curated it.

• 4:31Alex Cooper?

  I was gonna say, to a T. That's strategic.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  It's so calming.

• 4:36Alex Cooper?

  You know when like, you get on the wrong side of the internet and you're scrolling, and then you're like, I don't know how I got on the side, or just like negativity, and you're like, working so hard to rework your algorithm? And like, I'm watching the cooking video that I'm actually not even interested in, but I'm like, this will be my new algo.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  No, the worst is when it's like, someone that like, you have beef with, or like, an enemy, and they keep coming up, and you're like, I don't want to see this. You're like, pressing.

• 5:00Alex Cooper?

  It's so scary. No, it's, the internet is a scary, scary world, but I'm glad that you've curated yours to make you, yourself feel better.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  It's peaceful. It's great.

• 5:08Alex Cooper?

  How would your friends describe you?

• 5:10Speaker 02

  Oh, good question. I don't know. Very, probably, you know, hardworking, all those things, a perfectionist, somebody who constantly is striving for that next thing, raising the bar for myself. But like, you know, I enjoy just hanging out and like, being with the girls, being with my family, being outside. So I think they would describe me as kinda low-key. I don't know, actually.

• 5:34Alex Cooper?

  Okay. I saw a writer describe you once as a post-apocalyptic baddie who's making art and dropping it low in the face of life's paradoxes. Does that resonate at all?

• 5:47Speaker 02

  I feel like that was very much my last era. I was giving that, like with Nasty, you know, I was kinda like the aesthetic, like we were in the, I was kind of like being chased by surveillance. That was kinda like some of the themes I was experimenting with.

• 6:00Alex Cooper?

  That was. I also think like, a big theme that you explored in your last album was like contradictions.

• 6:08Alex Cooper?

  What are some contradictions you've realized maybe within yourself over the years?

• 6:13Speaker 02

  I mean, right away, we just nailed one, which is like, I'm very introverted and also very extroverted in a lot of ways. Like, I love to be alone. I love like, my free time. I love not having a huge group of people around me. And then on the flip side, like, I love to entertain. I love to put on a show. I love to like, be in front of an audience, which requires people. So it's like, there's this really interesting kind of juxtaposition there and kind of like a contradiction, I think. But like, yeah.

• 6:41Alex Cooper?

  Are you someone that recharges by being alone or socializing?

• 6:46Speaker 02

  I like to be alone. Okay. I like to be in my own space with my cat, just like, doing my thing.

• 6:52Alex Cooper?

  What's your cat's name?

• 6:53Speaker 02

  PJ.

• 6:54Alex Cooper?

  PJ, how, how old?

• 6:56Speaker 02

  He's eight. He's eight now. He's a grown man.

• 6:59Alex Cooper?

  Wait, how long do cats live till?

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Like, 16.

• 7:02Alex Cooper?

  Okay, so you're good.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  He's got a while.

• 7:04Alex Cooper?

  Oh, we're good.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Oh, wait, hopefully.

• 7:05Alex Cooper?

  Okay. Oh, PJ. What does PJ stand for?

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Prince Junior.

• 7:09Alex Cooper?

  Wait, and was there a Prince Senior? Or Prince, how did Prince Junior happen?

• 7:14Speaker 02

  You know Prince.

• 7:14Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, oh, of course, Prince.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  But he's the junior.

• 7:19Alex Cooper?

  I so see.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  And then I had another animal. Well, my dog, his name was Jackson. You know, you see the thread of connectivity.

• 7:29Alex Cooper?

  I see what you're doing. I see what you're doing. Um, something that also I was thinking about when we were talking about contradictions is one of them being, for me, that comes up a lot. And I think as a woman, maybe it's like, the contradiction between being confident and being vulnerable is a fascinating one to me.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 7:45Alex Cooper?

  And I'm wondering, how do you personally balance those two in your life?

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I use my art as kind of the funnel for my vulnerability. I think it kinda gives you a safe, safety net, in a sense, because it's art and it's under the guise of art. And so it allows me to have these vulnerable moments and express myself in ways that like, maybe I wouldn't day to day as easily. So like, the conversations, things I want to say to someone, that feelings I want to get across, emotions, I'm putting it in the art. If it comes to like, even just like, the way I express myself and like, my confidence, my sensuality, my sexuality, like, a lot of that is like, in the art. And so it's like, a really interesting vessel for me to be able to like, I guess, express myself.

• 8:30Alex Cooper?

  Like, have you ever had it where you're like, I'm so good at expressing it in my art? And then when it comes to relationships, I'm like-

• 8:36Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. All of a sudden mute.

• 8:39Alex Cooper?

  Okay, so it's easier for you to just like, pour it into the work, but maybe in your real life, you're still trying to figure out that balance?

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have to, honestly, it's been something that I've worked on a lot, is being able to speak my mind a lot of times. I kind of identify with being like, non-confrontational and like, not wanting to stir the pot, but have a lot of thoughts. So it's being able to bring that to the surface, being able to be real, which I think is something that I learned also with being able to run my own business, like going independent, being able to like, make my own art. Like, I think that makes you, it forces you into the position where you have to be really real with how you feel about things.

• 9:16Alex Cooper?

  That's a good point. I want to go back to that because your origin story, when I was researching you, I didn't realize that you started out in a girl group.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  I did.

• 9:26Alex Cooper?

  At 14 years old.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:29Alex Cooper?

  In what ways did like, being a part of a group kind of impact the way that you found your own identity and your own voice?

• 9:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it was the first time that I'd experienced the music industry at all. I had no experience. I was not like, you know, a part of this industry at all. I just knew that that was where I wanted to be. So it was probably the biggest, just- Initial learning experience of like being in major recording studios, going on tour, like seeing how the industry worked, learning how to, you know, just whatever it is, like on a fundamental level, kind of like go through the motions of what it means to be an artist.

• 10:05Alex Cooper?

  And at fourteen.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  At fourteen.

• 10:07Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. Fourteen, I'm like, what was I doing at fourteen? Not that. Fourteen.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  I loved it. It was so fun.

• 10:14Alex Cooper?

  Fourteen.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Girl, we were going to, we were in rehearsals. We were learning all the choreography.

• 10:20Alex Cooper?

  And didn't you during that time, um, you opened for Justin Bieber on his My World Tour?

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:26Alex Cooper?

  That's literally like the biggest flex.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  It was so amazing.

• 10:30Alex Cooper?

  I can't even imagine, cause that tour was when it, were you a believer at the time?

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Oh, of course.

• 10:37Alex Cooper?

  Okay. Oh, so it hit even better.

• 10:39Speaker 02

  Oh, of course. I was so happy to be there.

• 10:42Alex Cooper?

  Cause that was kind of, I feel like the beginning of when Justin became Justin, that tour changed everything.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  It did. And it was really palpable in the room to like be in the, I still to this day probably have not heard like decibel levels in a, in an arena that loud, like the screams. The screams were out of this world. And I just remember getting like so overwhelmed with like emotion and excitement and just being like, this is where I belong, like the stage. Like it was just so much fun.

• 11:13Alex Cooper?

  I also bet that must've been really inspiring as an artist to be in a position where you're watching someone at the beginning of the height of their career. Who did you look up to growing up?

• 11:26Speaker 02

  Britney Spears, Janet Jackson, Christina Aguilera, the Pussycat Dolls, Destiny's Child, Beyonce.

• 11:35Alex Cooper?

  Oh.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  You know, all the, all the girls.

• 11:38Alex Cooper?

  When I was reading, I read that kind of the success of Tuon, you talk about how it was kind of like almost somewhat like a double edged sword. And you have said for you specifically that there was almost like confusion of how to market you, which I think is really interesting. Can you talk more about that?

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I felt like I didn't really have a place to land and I had to continue to push back against, I guess, what people expected or how they expected me to water it down or change it or mold it to make it make sense.

• 12:12Alex Cooper?

  That also must've been so frustrating because you're like, you're trying to be authentic to yourself and you're trying to create your own voice. And yes, you have these people that you look up to, like a Beyonce or like a Britney, but you're carving out your own lane. And I think not even in just music, it's very relatable where if something is the, the set in stone of like, this is the standard, people just kind of want to be like, okay, do you fit in the Britney box? Do you fit in the Beyonce box? Do you fit in the Pussycat Doll box? And if you don't, then they don't know what to do with you where it's like, but at some point they carved their own lane.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 12:48Alex Cooper?

  And so you have to have an open mind in industries to allow people to be like, I'm going to disrupt this in my way. But that also requires people to have confidence and trust the artist, which I feel like, and speak from your own experience. The lot of time, the men in the suits in those positions think that they know what's best.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 13:08Alex Cooper?

  But you're the person with the talent.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, but they're looking at a young girl and they have done it time and time again and X, Y, Z. And I think a lot of times that can be very confusing. And for me, it was really, really important that I left that situation and was able to really remember that like my instincts and the type of music that I make, regardless of whatever label people want to put on it, is what I should do. Like ultimately that is the answer. That is, that's the best art that I'm going to be able to make is going to come from myself, of course.

• 13:44Alex Cooper?

  Can you share a little bit more about like how being so yes, young in the industry, when you were feeling these pressures? How did you navigate?

• 13:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:52Alex Cooper?

  Trying to not conform and not kind of just give in because I can imagine it's hard when they're like, just look like this, do this and act like this and have this be your image and put this outfit on. And then we can support and do this. And you're kind of like, to do that and lose myself or to maybe not immediately get as many opportunities, but stay true to myself. How did you navigate that?

• 14:16Speaker 02

  It was really tough. I felt there were a lot of moments where I'd honestly felt that I didn't have the choice and I felt like I had to in order to not, there was this kind of looming idea of like being shelved. Like people talk about like being shelved.

• 14:31Alex Cooper?

  What does that mean?

• 14:32Speaker 02

  And that's basically like when you're signed to a record label and they quit funding your project. So you're still there, but you don't have access anymore to like the money.

• 14:42Alex Cooper?

  And you're just put on the shelf.

• 14:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. You're just put on the shelf and you kind of get stuck there. And it's like a classic story. It's happened to many, many people and many artists. So, you know, especially as a young person in the industry, you want to, you know, you want to work with the people who are, you're working with and you want to be somewhat cooperative. But it would be, it would be really interesting being in these rooms with these older men and it would only be me. And I would just be like, I think, I think it should be like this. And a lot of times I'd just be like, ah, girl, girl, no, no, no, no, no. And they're, you know, doing their thing. And it's always like 10 dudes and me. It was just a, a big learning experience, a big, yeah, I think I grew up so much and learned so much through that experience.

• 15:27Alex Cooper?

  Who the hell did you lean on for support?

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, my family, honestly. Uh, I mean, they weren't with me in these rooms, but like, obviously I have like a really supportive family system that's kept me really grounded in this industry because it can be super tough and it's very isolating. It's very lonely. A lot of times you are the only person in these places and, and in these rooms and advocating for yourself as a young person can be hard.

• 15:54Alex Cooper?

  Oh, and it, and so intimidating.

• 15:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 15:57Alex Cooper?

  I just feel like the music industry is such a hard industry to get into. And it's like y- your mental health and your wellbeing and your creativity. It's like you can protect it as much as you can try.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:09Alex Cooper?

  And I'm sure it's hard. Like I'm sure you've seen artists where you're like, ugh, like I know I could have done that.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 16:16Alex Cooper?

  Right? And like, you're like, I could have done that. And then maybe I would have been here at this point. Or I could have kept doing this and then been here. It's, and it's like, you're constantly having to look at what other people are doing too.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  And negotiate a bit with like your own artistry and sense of like, is this going to be popular? Or is this going to be, you know, what I want to do?

• 16:36Alex Cooper?

  Exhausting.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. Fundamentally I've, I mean, ultimately I've landed on, you gotta do what you want to do.

• 16:42Alex Cooper?

  Well, I was going to say, it clearly has worked out for you after leaving your label.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:47Alex Cooper?

  You've had such success. I mean, I even think particularly with the song Nasty.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:54Alex Cooper?

  Like every single person in the world, just like singing that song. It's so viral. Like, tell me, first of all.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:02Alex Cooper?

  Tinashe, how does one match your freak? What, what does that look like?

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Oh my goodness. I mean, the jury's still out on that one. Cause no one has matched it thus far.

• 17:13Alex Cooper?

  Stop. No one.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  No one has. I mean, from time to time, some people have put their name in the ring.

• 17:18Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've tried.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  They've tried.

• 17:20Alex Cooper?

  But it hasn't worked. Okay. So you're single.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm single.

• 17:24Alex Cooper?

  How are you currently approaching dating?

• 17:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I'm not.

• 17:27Alex Cooper?

  You're not dating?

• 17:28Speaker 02

  I wish. I kind of wish.

• 17:30Alex Cooper?

  Okay. What do you mean you wish? You're, you're perfect. You're gorgeous. You're successful.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  It's, it takes a lot to carve out the time. I'm honestly like to, to be real. And also I think you need to take the time to do the deep research of like finding these people. Because if you're just like, oh, someone's going to cross my path based on the crossing path method. That hasn't like worked too great for me.

• 17:56Alex Cooper?

  That hasn't worked.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  And I've genuinely felt that if I had gotten into a serious relationship a bit earlier in my life, that I had fears that I wouldn't have felt fulfilled in my career. And I kind of always felt like I needed to kind of achieve this certain thing in my career before I made those steps to like really pursue that seriously.

• 18:19Alex Cooper?

  Do you think you'll ever be ready? Because I feel like.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  Exactly. Cause when, when, when?

• 18:25Alex Cooper?

  When?

• 18:26Speaker 02

  When?

• 18:26Alex Cooper?

  I feel like especially as women, we are so understandably like, oh my God, we have this moment and there, when you're having success.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:36Alex Cooper?

  It's nervous. Like it, I get nervous to take your foot off the pedal and like pour a little into yourself and stop with work for a second. Because again, we're taught like, there's only a couple of us that can make it in our very specific field. And so then you're sitting there and you're like, I don't have time for dating.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  And everything is a time window, whether it be like your career or dating or whatever. You're like, okay, well, how am I gonna? I think for me in terms of like wanting to make it a priority, this is maybe the first time that I've started to feel that way.

• 19:06Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  In a seriously probably ever.

• 19:10Alex Cooper?

  And why? What do you think has been shifting for you?

• 19:13Speaker 02

  Um, I think I feel more assured in my career now. I feel like I've accomplished a lot of things for myself and that I've reached a lot of places where I feel, okay, I've done it.

• 19:26Speaker 02

  I feel a lot better than I did even like two or three years ago in that regard.

• 19:31Alex Cooper?

  Have you had relationships in the past where the person was

• 19:37Alex Cooper?

  either threatened by your career or it was also just like, why are you prioritizing so much of your career over us time?

• 19:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think it's, it's been.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  I've had a situation where it was, especially when, you know, both people are professionals. A lot of times it's hard to determine like who's going to make sacrifices.

• 19:59Alex Cooper?

  That's hard.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  That is difficult. And I don't think I was ever in a place where I was willing to make sacrifices.

• 20:05Alex Cooper?

  Interesting.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  I was just having this conversation with my therapist recently, actually, about like arriving at things. And this feeling that we're always constantly looking forward to arriving. But then like, what does it feel like when you actually arrive? Like, a lot of times there is no arrival.

• 20:20Alex Cooper?

  It's not that great.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  That concept doesn't even exist if you like, really think about it.

• 20:24Alex Cooper?

  I completely agree with you. I feel like I've had the same conversation recently with some of my friends of like, everyone has these goals in their life where like, if I just could get this, then, then, then, then. And then weirdly, when you achieve it, like, oh my God, I made it. Then you're at these award shows, then your song goes to this and you do this and that. And then it's like, when you look back at like where your barometer was to where then we set it for ourselves. I think as women, we can get like, oh my God, like I said, there's only a small window. But then you start to look at, and you're like, oh, this window's bigger than I ever thought.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  It is big. Life is long. There's so many opportunities.

• 21:02Alex Cooper?

  And we freak ourselves out.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:03Alex Cooper?

  I'm curious for you also, like, no matter how much we work on ourselves, the pressures around relationships and timelines can creep in, especially as women. And you're like, entering your thirties. And everyone tells us entering our thirties, you're done. And I'm like, we have never felt better.

• 21:25Alex Cooper?

  I'm feeling really good right now. How do you manage the feelings around timelines and pressures and all of that?

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I guess, yeah, it's tough. I think for me, it's,

• 21:38Speaker 02

  it's constantly focusing on like wellness and like my mental wellness and keeping that energy around me. Because having my work be something that I prioritize so much and being so busy and all those things, I think,

• 21:53Speaker 02

  taking care of myself on like a spiritual level is really, really, really crucial. Again, to like, making sure that I can function, really, honestly.

• 22:04Alex Cooper?

  Um, what does self-care look like for you though? Cause I love how you're like, I'm pouring into myself. What are we doing?

• 22:09Speaker 02

  You know, being outside, exercising, skincare, drinking my water, staying hydrated. You know, being happy, like just getting sleep. Oh my gosh, making sure I get my rest. That like really helps.

• 22:25Alex Cooper?

  I also think something that you referenced earlier that I'm curious about when you were like, it's almost like I need to do a lot of like the research process.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, the research.

• 22:34Alex Cooper?

  What do you mean by the research process?

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Because I feel like you kind of have to, I don't know, maybe, maybe this is wrong, but like you kind of have to put in an effort. And I'm unclear about what that effort looks like.

• 22:46Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  Because I don't really want to get like on the apps.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  So it's like, should I like take up golf?

• 22:53Alex Cooper?

  No.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  Like, people are like, you should join a tennis club. I'm like, maybe.

• 22:59Alex Cooper?

  Honestly, maybe you should.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  Maybe I should.

• 23:02Alex Cooper?

  Maybe this is the, next time I see you, you're gonna be like, I joined the club. I met the guy. Can you play golf or tennis?

• 23:10Speaker 02

  I mean, like, we can learn.

• 23:11Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  I'm athletic.

• 23:14Alex Cooper?

  Yes, you are. You can learn anything that you want.

• 23:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:25Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Revolve. You know, I'm a father and now I'm also a mother. Okay? I'm not gonna lie. I don't think my entire style is gonna change now that I'm a mom. But like, I'm definitely looking at some more sweaters than going out tops. I know, what a concept. And I'm like liking my like, I'm, I'm evolving. Okay? We're growing. Okay? And so I'm constantly looking for good little outfits to put together for a date night where I'm like, okay, I can be with the baby. And then I can go and still have my husband be like, damn, Alex, you look great. There's, there's gonna be a balance. And whether you're building for your future hot mom wardrobe, or you're just trying to honestly find pieces that make you feel put together,

• 24:08Alex Cooper?

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• 24:52Alex Cooper?

  Listen, hot girl energy, hot mom energy, whatever era you're in, Revolve has the outfit for it. Revolve has the hottest brands, new arrivals dropping daily and pieces you'll wear over and over again. Go to revolve.com/chd and use code C H D for 15% off your order. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Ritual. It seems like everything is connected to your gut microbiome. Don't you feel like that, guys? We're just hearing that constantly, like, well, it always goes back to the gut health. And I'm like, oh, okay. So it's the gut health. But did you know the gut microbiome shifts during pregnancy? Yeah, these are the things I've recently learned, guys. And these shifts can impact mom and baby's health in pregnancy and postpartum. Yes, these are things I've recently learned. Okay?

• 25:38Alex Cooper?

  And that is why Ritual created NADAL Biotic, a specialized biotic with clinically studied strains for pregnancy and postpartum microbiome support to support digestive health, mood, vaginal health, and baby's immune health. Here's the thing, guys, as I've been pregnant, I have just become so aware of my health. Obviously, I got diagnosed with gestational diabetes. And so my entire day is just consisting of how can I take care of this baby? And with Ritual, I feel so set up to do that. And I feel way less overwhelmed with trying to Google things that I'm like, what does this mean? Ritual kind of just does it all for you. So whether you're pregnant, postpartum, or you're looking for everyday trusted daily gut support, get clinically studied biotics to support your gut health with Ritual.

• 26:23Alex Cooper?

  My listeners can save 25% on their first month at ritual.com/callherdaddy. That's ritual.com/callherdaddy for 25% off your first month. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Okay, so let's go through, you're like, I need to figure out if I'm gonna meet someone in the wild.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:51Alex Cooper?

  I have, I have a little game we're gonna play.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 26:54Alex Cooper?

  Okay, in the No Broke Boys music video, you go over some standards with the girls. And I'm gonna list some of these standards from your music video and you are gonna tell me how you're, you're feeling about them now.

• 27:07Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 27:07Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:08Alex Cooper?

  Number one, not broke, in all caps. Now, besides money, is there any other meaning behind that? Or this is strictly financial?

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Um, I mean, yeah, sure, like spiritually broke, like mentally broke, like just not filling your cup in any way. Just not great. But then like also money. Because like I've dated a broke, like a broke guy before.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  It's not, it's just not it. I'm sorry.

• 27:41Alex Cooper?

  So were you a sugar mama at that point?

• 27:44Speaker 02

  Girl, I'm not gonna lie, there was a couple of times I was taking cash out of the ATM.

• 27:51Alex Cooper?

  No. You're like, this is for dinner.

• 27:54Speaker 02

  I was like, uh, here you go. I was pissed too.

• 27:58Alex Cooper?

  Pissed. Oh my God. And then isn't that the worst?

• 28:00Speaker 02

  And then I was like, I'm never doing this again. That's why I wrote a song about it. Don't do it again.

• 28:04Alex Cooper?

  No broke boys. Okay, next.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Don't lend men money.

• 28:07Alex Cooper?

  Ever, ever. Do not lend men money.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Once you're there, abort mission immediately. Actually, don't even do that. Cause again, like I said, that don't date broke men.

• 28:20Alex Cooper?

  So yes, then we'll never put ourselves in that situation. You did it for us so that we could learn.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  I did the research. I did the research.

• 28:26Alex Cooper?

  Does it, see? Research, honey. Okay, he has under 1K followers. Explain.

• 28:33Speaker 02

  I would prefer someone who's not like on social media that much.

• 28:37Alex Cooper?

  Oh, me too. Like I, I, I would appreciate if I went to a guy's page and I was like.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Hasn't posted since like 2018.

• 28:43Alex Cooper?

  And he has like a hundred followers.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's like his mom. Ideal.

• 28:48Alex Cooper?

  Yes. And it's like a random picture of like a tree or like a golf course.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  You scroll down two posts and it's him in high school. You're like, yes.

• 28:58Alex Cooper?

  The best treat you could ever, you've.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  Not because he's young.

• 29:02Alex Cooper?

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's on a high school. It's been 20 years since he has posted himself in high school. Yeah, clarification. Have you ever gotten burned by a guy on social media before?

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Of course, who hasn't?

• 29:17Alex Cooper?

  Oh, like what, posting something you found out?

• 29:20Speaker 02

  I've found out so much stuff via social media. But that's the thing, like they're not that smart, so it's really easy. It's really, it's too easy.

• 29:31Alex Cooper?

  Like what's something that, what's something that you found out through social media?

• 29:34Speaker 02

  I mean, that he was dating someone else, that he was out with somebody else. All the, all the gamut, that someone else was in his house.

• 29:45Alex Cooper?

  Isn't it the worst when you find that and you're like, like the tagged photo?

• 29:51Alex Cooper?

  And he's in the likes.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 29:53Alex Cooper?

  Like, this is public.

• 29:57Speaker 02

  Public.

• 29:57Alex Cooper?

  You're right, though. The worst is when you're like, I'm so proud of myself if I can get like full inspector FBI on this. And then sometimes you're like, wait, why did you make it that easy?

• 30:07Speaker 02

  No, I didn't even have to go full. It's right there.

• 30:11Alex Cooper?

  Dude, and do you usually confront these men when they do this?

• 30:15Speaker 02

  No. I mean, at that point, I'm usually like, okay, noted. But yeah, sure, if I need to.

• 30:21Alex Cooper?

  You need to. Yeah.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  If I was like in a relationship with them, yeah.

• 30:24Alex Cooper?

  Then yes.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  But otherwise, I'm just like, no.

• 30:27Alex Cooper?

  Noted. Okay, fair. Um, okay, not a DJ club promoter.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  Yes. Okay.

• 30:33Alex Cooper?

  How does DJ Disco Lines feel about this?

• 30:35Speaker 02

  I don't know. I haven't asked him directly, but I think he would disagree. But I've also done the research in that field and I just, it hasn't worked out for me.

• 30:49Alex Cooper?

  Tana, I say you're like, it was just something about the club promoter that just like, it didn't give long term.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  It didn't give, you know, safety and, and trust.

• 31:01Alex Cooper?

  You're laying in bed at 3am and you're not feeling, you're not feeling cozy.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  You're not feeling protected.

• 31:10Alex Cooper?

  Okay. So, and you've also dated DJs before?

• 31:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:13Alex Cooper?

  Oh.

• 31:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:14Alex Cooper?

  And do you think there's something for like the girlies where it's like, oh, you get like the rush when you first time get to go in the DJ booth and you're feeling special? And then?

• 31:22Speaker 02

  That's fun, but like.

• 31:25Alex Cooper?

  But then you realize how many other girls.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. It's a profession. It's like their profession.

• 31:30Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:32Alex Cooper?

  Um, okay, six, five minimum.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  Okay. I mean, like, I'm like kinda trolling. Like, I'm exaggerating a little bit, but I do like tall guys.

• 31:43Alex Cooper?

  I agree. Does he have to be over six foot?

• 31:46Speaker 02

  I wouldn't say have to, but like, that'd be great.

• 31:49Alex Cooper?

  You would like it.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  I would like it.

• 31:51Alex Cooper?

  You would like a six?

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Two to three.

• 31:53Alex Cooper?

  Two to three.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:54Alex Cooper?

  Six, five?

• 31:55Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 31:58Alex Cooper?

  Fine.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  Pick me up and throw me on your shoulder. Sounds great.

• 32:01Alex Cooper?

  No short kings.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  I mean, I've also dated a short king.

• 32:04Alex Cooper?

  Oh, how'd that go?

• 32:06Speaker 02

  Um, at the time I was like, it's fine. And I remember my mom was like, I don't know.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  No, it's fine. I was like, young, though. I didn't know any better.

• 32:18Alex Cooper?

  Not the justification of dating the short king.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  Cause like, it was my first boyfriend was the short king, you know?

• 32:24Alex Cooper?

  And then you realize.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  And then I was like, no, he was short and broke.

• 32:30Alex Cooper?

  You have to not be broke. And then maybe I'll give you a little bit more leniency, but you can't be short and broke.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  No, that's too much. That's too much.

• 32:38Alex Cooper?

  Was your mom, does your mom put her foot down and be like, never again?

• 32:41Speaker 02

  Um, I wouldn't say she puts her foot down, but you know, she, she makes her.

• 32:46Alex Cooper?

  Opinion note.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Opinion note.

• 32:48Alex Cooper?

  I love a mom like that. You're like, and the worst is when you don't listen to your mom in the beginning and you're like, you don't know me. You don't get me, mom. And they're like, uh huh. And then it all crumbles to the ground. You're like, mom. And she's like, mhm. You're like.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  In fact, she knows you better than you know yourself.

• 33:04Alex Cooper?

  It's the worst, but it is the best.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  It is.

• 33:06Alex Cooper?

  Um, okay, next. Good with his hands.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 33:10Alex Cooper?

  How quickly do you know if there is sexual chemistry with a guy? Like, do you think that it can build?

• 33:18Speaker 02

  I think, yes, but like, you know, already off the bat, if you're attracted. I'm, okay. Maybe for me, let me just speak for myself. I am not really sexually attracted to someone that I'm not like attracted to by my eyeballs. So if I don't like immediately already like see it for you, then I'm not going to get to that place.

• 33:41Alex Cooper?

  I understand. Do you like, I need to physically be attracted and want to like go up to you and talk to you?

• 33:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have to think you're kinda, I have to think you're kinda hot.

• 33:50Alex Cooper?

  We're right.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  But I think it's like the intangible things, like, or like,

• 33:56Speaker 02

  like, obviously, like how, like you're feeling in the moment. Like, if you're feeling really confident and like yourself and not self-conscious, I think that's like a big plus. Or like, another one is like, if you, like, one time I was like, I hooked up with this guy and like, I thought, I didn't like how he smelled. And he didn't smell bad. I just didn't like it.

• 34:19Alex Cooper?

  No, no, that's like a full fair moon thing where you're like.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't think.

• 34:22Alex Cooper?

  It's not, it's like not vibing. That is like, I think that's a full thing. I've had that before too, where I'm like, my, like my pH balance levels are not working with yours. It's not hitting right.

• 34:33Speaker 02

  It's not, it's not gonna work.

• 34:34Alex Cooper?

  I do appreciate you saying that though, because I agree. I think like, when you are going to start to see if there's chemistry. I do believe that the chemistry and the hookup and the sex can get better.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 34:49Alex Cooper?

  But I love how you just said, like, there are signs though, that have nothing to do with like the actual, actual. Did you feel comfortable? Did you feel confident? Did you feel safe? Did you feel seen? You're like, oh, then there, maybe then we just need to like learn each other's bodies more.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 35:05Alex Cooper?

  But I think that's good to like, not completely write them off unless it's like, you know, really bottom of the barrel. And you're like, all right, I never want to see you again. Okay, last but certainly not least, emotionally available. Now, what are some signs that you've experienced in the past where maybe someone was clearly not emotionally available, but maybe you still pursued them? Because we all love to do that.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  Um, you know, when they extended situationships. Extended situationship.

• 35:39Alex Cooper?

  Do you find yourself in situationships often?

• 35:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:44Alex Cooper?

  Okay, let's talk about this, Tana, because situationships, I would argue are more painful.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:51Alex Cooper?

  Than real ending of like relationships that had titles and we met each other's family.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Clear cut.

• 35:59Alex Cooper?

  Yes. Okay. How are we ending up in situationships, Tana? What is happening?

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Hmm. I mean, I think it's easy when you're busy, you got a lot going on, you're like, let's just, you know, let's see how this goes. And that, I think that's the thing. It's like, there's a lot of upfront chemistry and excitement and that purposefulness sometimes is what's missing. And I think you start to notice pretty early on, but it's easy to write off the signs because we're having fun. We like each other. The sex is good. We, you know, we're busy anyways.

• 36:39Alex Cooper?

  Do you find yourself in the situationship, usually the person, because I know you've been so focused on your career being like, you know what? I just want this something casual. Like, are you the one setting the boundary of casual?

• 36:52Speaker 02

  Um, I definitely have, yeah.

• 36:54Alex Cooper?

  And then have you ever gotten feelings?

• 36:57Speaker 02

  I've, I've experienced this situation where it's gone back and forth.

• 37:00Alex Cooper?

  Oh.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  I don't want anything serious. He has feelings. I want something serious. He doesn't want, back and forth. The switch, the flip.

• 37:10Alex Cooper?

  Wait, I feel like that's literally the worst type of situationship.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  That's the long-term ones.

• 37:14Alex Cooper?

  You're, you could be in that for.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  You could be in that forever.

• 37:17Alex Cooper?

  Years. No, because it's like, the way that it got started was you guys kind of agreeing it was gonna be nothing too serious.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:25Alex Cooper?

  Then one gets feelings, so one pulls back. Then you agree, fine, we can keep it casual. Then what?

• 37:30Speaker 02

  It's the cat and mouse.

• 37:32Alex Cooper?

  But it's kind of addicting.

• 37:33Speaker 02

  It's super addicting. Watch out for those.

• 37:36Alex Cooper?

  Have you ever had a situationship turn into a relationship?

• 37:40Speaker 02

  Um, no, but I've had a relationship turn into a situationship.

• 37:45Alex Cooper?

  What?

• 37:46Speaker 02

  I've gone the opposite direction.

• 37:48Alex Cooper?

  We've regressed.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  We've regressed.

• 37:51Alex Cooper?

  What? Explain.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  I mean, you've never like hooked up with your ex and then like, kept hooking up with your ex?

• 37:59Speaker 02

  Like that. That's how it happens.

• 38:01Alex Cooper?

  No, I thought you meant literally like, you're like, we're boyfriend and girlfriend, da, da, da. And then we're like, let's break.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  No, no, there was like a breakup.

• 38:08Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. You literally are like, but let's keep it casual. Now, dude, that is the worst when you start hooking up with an ex again.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:15Alex Cooper?

  It's familiar. It feels easy. It feels like this can't, this is, I know this.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:20Alex Cooper?

  But then you're stuck in a cycle.

• 38:22Speaker 02

  Highly inadvisable.

• 38:24Alex Cooper?

  You're like, these are all the things to not do, girl.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  Easier said than done, but highly inadvisable. I get it though, because it's like, it's safe, it's easy.

• 38:40Alex Cooper?

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• 39:25Alex Cooper?

  I grew up with Haagen Dazs in my house every single night. My family and I would eat our favorite flavors. I'm obsessed with the cherry dark chocolate bar. Those flavors together, I couldn't be happier. I'm gonna watch my favorite TV shows and I'm gonna be eating that. Boom, done. Take your sweet time. That's Dazs. Available at retailers nationwide. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Okay, so picture this. You are sitting down for a dinner on a first date. Drinks are ordered, food's on the way, and you're actually excited about this person. But now it's time. We've done the small talk and now we have to ask this man the real hard questions.

• 40:08Alex Cooper?

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• 40:50Alex Cooper?

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• 41:09Alex Cooper?

  Okay, your song, I'd Rather Be Alone, talks about previously holding out hope that someone would change. What inspired you to write this song?

• 41:20Speaker 02

  Hmm, long-term situations.

• 41:22Alex Cooper?

  Oh, you're like, we just went through it, that. And what did you want them to change?

• 41:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think, to me, it's an array of things. But I think with that song specifically, I think I'm just talking about the avoidance specifically. I think there's, it's hard when someone's, you can't tap into them. Like even if you're close, if you're physically in the same room with them, or like you're touching them and they still seem far away and you can never get in. I think that's an impenetrable boundary, like.

• 41:59Alex Cooper?

  That hits, because I'm just thinking about all of the people listening that you're like, it's almost this like intangible thing that it's hard to describe. They're like, well, what did he do? And you're like, I, there's just like an avoidance or a distance that I can't quite.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  And can they change? That's the thing about like somebody who has that kind of quality and like distance from their emotions. I think that kind of begs the question, like, are they even in touch with, is that even something that they'll be able to access or like get to? Or is this something that will always just like be at a distance for them? I think.

• 42:33Alex Cooper?

  Dude, that's really hard to answer because I think a lot of times we get into those situations where we're like, we see glimpses. And so I think that inevitably, a lot of us go into relationships being like, of course, someone can grow and they can change. And so when you see glimpses, you hold on to those little baby glimpses where you had a little breakthrough or something. But if you look at something consistently and it's not changing, that's when it's hard to be like, you kind of have to be the one to walk away.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's why, that's why this song, I think, is so, hits so hard for me. Because the, the issue that I speak about the song is that I can get so close to you, but like, you're still so far away. Or you give me a little but never enough. And that's the thing with like somebody who is avoidant. It's like it on the surface, it might look like they give you X, Y, Z, they go through the motions. But like, you still can't crack that like deep inner core, or like maybe you do from time to time, but it's like.

• 43:28Alex Cooper?

  And you don't feel fulfilled.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  You don't feel fulfilled. And I think that's a really painful realization to come to when you're like, okay, maybe it looks good on the outside, but I'm not getting that like juicy inner core.

• 43:42Alex Cooper?

  And I love that you're saying that because I think sometimes it's hard when you're in that situation as the person that is giving so much and you're not getting a lot back. When I kind of said like, you could see glimpses of it, I think that we convince ourselves like, okay, maybe I'm, I'm asking for too much. Or maybe I just need to be more patient, or maybe they really are trying their best. But I also think at the end of the day, relationships, it's like, if there is not reciprocity and it's, they could be a great person also, by the way. This doesn't make them a bad person. Yes, but if you feel so unfulfilled, at some point, even if they check a lot of boxes. That pit in your stomach and that gut intuition feeling, it's never gonna go away.

• 44:26Alex Cooper?

  So you do sometimes have to be the one to rip off the Band-Aid.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think that song also kind of talks about that because you, those are almost the situations that you want to like hold on to longer. Cause you're like, it's not that bad. Like it could be worse. Like it could be, you know, you could be doing this, you could be doing that. And so I think sometimes that's where that song kind of ended up with being like, I'd rather be alone. Because you realize that like your own peace of mind, like your own happiness, your own fulfillment is more important than like an almost.

• 45:01Alex Cooper?

  That's what I, I wrote that down in the song. You say, I've learned that it's worse to look back and admit I lied to myself when I always knew better. I was like, oh, because then you're basically self-abandoning in these moments. And it takes you a lot of times leaving the relationship to look back and be like, oh my God, what was I doing? Which is so painful sometimes because hurting the relationship with yourself is sometimes more painful than when you are breaking up a relationship with someone else. Because you're like, how did I get so far away from me?

• 45:39Speaker 02

  I think that's the hardest, hardest thing to grapple with. And when someone hurts you and you feel like, oh, this was, this was my, this is on me because I knew better. And I think the, the line I say immediately after that is potential is just potential, which is another thing that I think I've had to really learn is that

• 45:58Speaker 02

  potential is just potential.

• 46:00Alex Cooper?

  I know. And it's like crazy, the mind tricks that we play on ourselves to convince ourselves, like I said, like, but maybe it's because, and you're like, if you keep saying, but maybe.

• 46:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, and everyone tells you this, but you can't, you know.

• 46:15Alex Cooper?

  Do you have any advice for your younger self of like, how to maybe get out of situations sooner? And not get to the point where you are lying to yourself and you're kind of going down this longer road that maybe you didn't have to subject yourself to?

• 46:27Speaker 02

  I mean, I would give myself the advice that everyone gave me, which is to just like be real and like assume that, you know, what you see in front of you is, is the truth. But I think, again, I wouldn't, I can't, I can't look back now and think that I would have ever done anything differently. Because like I said, you have to, it's like a canon effect, like a canon event, you can't interfere. Like sometimes you just have to like let the cycle play out, even if you do know better. And even if you do have all the good advice in the world.

• 46:56Alex Cooper?

  I saw that you had said in conversation about like how long it can actually take to heal from a breakup. In the past, you've said days, try years. When you look back at getting over a relationship and grieving a relationship, what do you think for you specifically, you found yourself mourning post-breakup?

• 47:17Speaker 02

  Mostly, um, I think the potential that I saw for myself, which is another thing that I think you learn, is like the person that I expected to become by being in this relationship. And I think that a key, a key is realizing that you can become that person without a relationship at all. And you already are that person a lot of times, but it sometimes feels like you can only access like your happiest self or your most outgoing self, your most comfortable self. Or are those things like through someone else seeing those things in you?

• 47:48Alex Cooper?

  It's such a good point. And I agree, it's so hard to do it, but you're right. It's always right there. And then we try to look and see like, well, maybe this relationship will give it to me. And it's like, no, no, no, you can give it to yourself.

• 48:00Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 48:01Alex Cooper?

  Um, for you, when you've had moments where you felt like you were healing post-breakup or situationship, what has set you back maybe in the past?

• 48:14Speaker 02

  I think life is very cyclical and I think we go through a lot of just like cycles of feeling good and feeling bad and feeling confident and feeling less confident. And whether that be because of like something that happened that triggered it, or just like the seasons changed and like it's getting colder. And now I like, miss you. I think those things happen. And I think my career is very cyclical as well. Like I go through these cycles of like writing an album, touring an album, promoting an album, writing an album, touring an album, promoting an album. So a lot of times, like I think a lot, when I'm like creating, that can really dredge up a lot of emotions in me. Or like I go through, when I'm traveling and I'm alone a lot, like really lonely in hotel rooms a lot.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Then like, maybe I'll be like, I wish I had someone to talk to.

• 49:02Alex Cooper?

  No, that makes a lot of sense. I feel like, yeah, we get our weakest when we're alone and we feel lonely. And it's like, hold on, if you went back, I always used to say this to myself, like, if I went back, would anything change? No, so stop it. You're just lonely right now, but it doesn't mean you actually miss him. You miss having someone and that's normal.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  And I think you can literally also be bored.

• 49:25Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 49:34Alex Cooper?

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• 50:19Alex Cooper?

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• 51:04Alex Cooper?

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• 51:45Alex Cooper?

  My family and I would eat our favorite flavors. I'm obsessed with the cherry dark chocolate bar. Those flavors together, I couldn't be happier. I'm going to watch my favorite TV shows and I'm going to be eating that. Boom, done. Take your sweet time. That's Dazs. Available at retailers nationwide.

• 52:02Alex Cooper?

  I would be shocked to find someone who hasn't had, like, obviously, like, a minor crash out of a relationship, which kind of brings me to my next question. Part of your promo for your song Crash Out, it included a clip of you taking a sledgehammer to a car.

• 52:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:20Alex Cooper?

  Now, what inspired the car smashing?

• 52:25Speaker 02

  Um, well, at the end of the day, my album's called Pop Star, and a lot of the themes surrounding it are like classic, like, pop star tropes, whether it be like performances or stunts. So I was like, we should do a stunt. Like, we need like a gaggy moment. And it would be really funny if people like didn't know that it was a stunt, like, you know, like a true publicity stunt.

• 52:48Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 52:49Speaker 02

  I don't want people to know that we're promoting my album. I just want to go out there and like people who don't like follow me are seeing it online and they're like, what the hell? And that's exactly what happened. So it worked. It was fun. It was great.

• 53:00Alex Cooper?

  We're all like, what is Tanisha doing? And whose car is that? And I love this, but also like, what did he do to her? Were you thinking of anyone specific when you were?

• 53:08Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh, I was just thinking about how heavy that sledgehammer was. Girl, that shit was like 25, 30 pounds.

• 53:14Alex Cooper?

  Right. You're like, this sounded like a good idea.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  I had no idea they were that heavy.

• 53:19Alex Cooper?

  No, no, no, that's actually, I was impressed. Um, in the song, you talk about people sitting on the internet hating. What has your experience been with just the public's perception of you and internet hate? And how do you deal with it?

• 53:34Speaker 02

  I mean, I've also gone through like ebbs and flows of being like the butt of the joke to being like an internet darling, to being like butt of the joke again, to like being an internet dar- I think that's kind of like how there's always like a ping pongy between like the internet loves you. Girl, there was like a period of time, people were calling me tennis shoe. I had a song called All Hands On Deck. One time I took a picture on the red carpet like this and they called me all hands, no neck for like two years.

• 54:04Alex Cooper?

  That is so terrible. And how do you deal with those moments?

• 54:10Speaker 02

  You know, good old fashioned, just try to stay offline as much as you can. But I've also just gotten a way thicker skin over the years. Like, you just, you develop an ability to take criticism and to like let it roll off your back. The more you see it, the easier it gets. The only internet stuff that bothers me to this day is the stuff that I like kind of agree with. You know, like the stuff that taps your insecurities is when it's bad. Like, for me, it's like when people talk about like my performance at something, something, something, because I'm very, very critical of like

• 54:43Alex Cooper?

  Your art.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  The things that I do, my art and stuff. And I'm typically like, yeah, it could have been better. And then someone says like, it could have been better. I'm like, damn, they're right. It could have been better. Like, they saw it. So I think that those are the things on the internet that bother me. But like, people just like joking around, being trolls, like, that doesn't really bother me anymore.

• 54:59Alex Cooper?

  Right. If they're being an asshole about a bad photo on a carpet that we all have, you're like, please, please, leave me alone. Okay, I get it. Um, there are also lyrics about rebellion and kind of rejecting societal expectations. You say, I don't want to be a good girl. What do you think that, what do you mean in that context?

• 55:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think in my life career, I think there's also like this framing around what people expect of me, what people expect of women, what people expect of, I guess, yeah, being a professional. And I think you're constantly questioning whether those like standards are, are worth it, whether it's worth your standing. Again, this kind of like ties back into like fitting into boxes, watering yourself down, or like making the things that you really feel and really think smaller. And sometimes, especially as an artist, I think you just want to be able to express like the full capacity of yourself

• 56:02Speaker 02

  and your art and not have to have it be like picked apart and analyzed. And I think a lot of times you feel like you can't be 100% real nowadays, you know?

• 56:12Alex Cooper?

  No, I, I really appreciate that because I agree. I think like, especially as women, we deal with, we're trying to people please, and we're trying to be palatable, and we want people to see us as likeable. And sometimes you're then, if you start to get so fixated on being this like good girl or the liked girl, you're like, you're doing everything to appease everyone and you're just going to lose yourself because unfortunately

• 56:37Speaker 02

  You can't be liked by everyone.

• 56:38Alex Cooper?

  You can't. You literally can't. And the moment that you're liked by everyone, half the time, you're like, well, I was kind of like doing it because I thought that's what they wanted. And it's like, it's an impossible game that we play with ourselves that like men just do not have to think about it to any degree compared to what we do. I also think the song, you kind of, it reflects this idea that you're at this point in your career and your life where like you don't need validation. I can like feel that from you, like you're getting to that place where you're kind of like, so what? What do you think it took from that young girl, 14, in that, you know, girl group to the now where you are in your career? Like, what did it take for you to get to the point where you're like, maybe I don't need this external validation. It's all inside.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  I think it's, I've, I've taken it all the way there to where I cared a lot about what people thought, all the way to not caring at all. And it's way better over here. Like, I think there's just so much freedom. But to get to that place, you needed the experience, I think, of, of caring a lot. Because, because when I say I don't care at all, of course I care. That's the thing. It's like you always care about your art, about what you put out, about how people feel about you, but you don't care to the point where it becomes detrimental to your process, or how you feel about yourself, or your own value, or I think that was the biggest thing from the 14 year old to now is, when I first started, I really

• 58:06Speaker 02

  kind of had this confidence and like knew I was going to become like the biggest artist in the world. And I think I went full circle from that to being like, oh, I'm actually not confident in my ideas. Maybe like the things that I'm bringing to the table aren't that great because people aren't understanding them. Maybe I have to change things. Like, maybe, I don't know, this is confusing, to then realizing that like, oh,

• 58:32Speaker 02

  I am, I can still be really confident and make all those things and be, you know, who I am at the end of the day. And yeah, it just takes a journey.

• 58:40Alex Cooper?

  Well, that's why I'm so excited for you because your album, Pop Star, which by the time this comes out, releases this week.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  Yay.

• 58:51Alex Cooper?

  First of all, congratulations. Cause I do think it's kind of like an amalgamation of everything we just talked about, everything you just said. It's like all of the building blocks of who Tinashe is now, we're here and you have this piece of work that's coming out. Can you talk a little bit more about what inspired this album for you?

• 59:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I wanted to put out a body of work that represented all of the things that make me me. And like we said earlier, I don't subscribe to like one particular sound, one particular genre. I've made records on this project that feel like dance records, like hip hop records, like pop records, like R and B records. And I think they all to me fall under this umbrella of pop star. And I wanted to bring that question or like, bring that conversation to the table of what does it mean to be a pop star? And to me, I've always thought of it as an umbrella term, something that, you know, kind of can encompass all of the genres and isn't exclusive. Or, you know, I think a lot of times people

• 59:50Speaker 02

  have this idea of what pop is, and maybe it's become more and more exclusive even over time, what they think the sound is or what it looks like. And there's kind of like a monolith. And I don't think, I don't think that that's, should be the case.

• 1:00:06Alex Cooper?

  It's a great point. Also to have an album that has such a variety in genre and sound, like, can you talk more about the process of making this?

• 1:00:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:16Alex Cooper?

  Like, how did you even start? What was your thought process of how you were going to approach it?

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  I mean, I wanted to have a real sense of play when I created this project, like just feel really playful and free and go in there and make something that just like was a fun, enjoyable process. And a lot of times that comes from challenging myself. It's making something that isn't easy or obvious and, and maybe like adding elements that feel really contrasting. They feel in contrast to one another. So maybe like, I have a really deep bassy, heavy kind of song. And then I have like really floaty vocals over top or like vice versa. Maybe I'll like have something that feels like dancy and like remove the drums or like taking, playing with different elements and playing with my vocal performance and just like having fun.

• 1:01:03Alex Cooper?

  And from what we were talking about, like you are someone that works so hard. You're such a perfectionist. You want to get to continuing to build in your career. Like, how do you feel about this album in terms of like where it kind of places you at in your life right now?

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. It feels, it feels the most like I've arrived, I think, so far. I think I'm, I just feel really confident in this project. I feel really like I am just showing up in like my most myself and just being unapologetic and not keeping, I think I'm, I have a tendency to almost like downplay my own accomplishments or like my own place in the world and in the industry and in culture. And I think I'm just owning that, I think, with this project.

• 1:01:59Alex Cooper?

  Okay. Last question.

• 1:02:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:01Alex Cooper?

  Now that you have built a career entirely on your own terms, what does success look like for you in the future? We have this album. Tinashe is going to continue to thrive, but what does that look like for you?

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think I've reached the place where I've realized that being able to continue to make art in a comfortable way is like my main priority, to be able to continue to tour and put on the shows that I want to put on and make the visuals that I make and make music without having to worry about anything else is really, is the goal. So I think being able to just sustain that and being able to be like my full creative self is the dream, you know?

• 1:02:54Alex Cooper?

  I'm so happy for you because hearing how hard you work and how much you have put into your career, how much you have really tried to not allow other people's opinions and other people's influence to essentially impact the way that you approach your own life and your own vision for your talent, I think is so inspiring for women and anyone watching, just because I think it's easy to hop on trains nowadays of like, this is working and this will be catchy and this will do that. And to stay true to your core is clear that you've done that. And I'm so excited for the world to hear your new album.

• 1:03:36Alex Cooper?

  I'm so excited to continue to like follow your career. And I'm sending you all the good vibes. And just congrats again. Like seriously, it's, it was such a pleasure to get to talk to you.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  The pleasure was mine. Thank you for having me.

• 1:04:04Alex Cooper?

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