How Incestuous Were The Habsburgs?

People will do crazy things to keep hold of power. The Habsburgs - one of the most powerful families in European history - were a prime example of this. To keep hold of their power, they decided they would keep their gene pool as small as possible. What were the disastrous consequences of this incest? How common was incest in royal families? And how did it all end for this dynasty, which included Charles II of Spain and Marie Antoinette? Helping Kate get to know them is historian, Associate Professor in History at Northeastern University London and descendent of the Habsburgs(!), Estelle Paranque. This episode was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Please vote for us for Listeners' Choice at the British Podcast Awards! Follow this link https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting, and don’t forget to confirm the email. Thank you! Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here. All music from Epidemic Sounds. Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kate Lister?

  Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:35Kate Lister?

  Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Betwixt the Sheets. And for those of you that don't know, for any newbies that have just wandered in, this is quite a naughty podcast. Well, we don't mean it to be naughty, but we are looking at the history of naughty things, so we do stray into the occasionally rude. And frankly, that's why most of you are here, anyway. But I do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adult things, and an adult who is aware of and going to arrange those subjects to you to be an adult too. And I have to tell you that to cover our asses, in case anyone keeps listening and happens to get offended. Have I covered everything? Are we all good to go? All right, let's do it.

• 1:16Kate Lister?

  Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all? As you gaze upon yourself in the morning, you can't help but see the generational traits passed on by your parents and your grandparents. You have your father's eyes, your mother's smile, your grandparents' hair. No, that can't be right. But spare a thought for Charles II of Spain, who was no lucker. And the reason for that was because the legacy being passed on by his parents was not so much from a family tree as a family shrub, I think that's fair to say. Charles was the poster boy for royal incest.

• 1:57Kate Lister?

  Not the most enviable of legacies, which is slightly ironic because he never had any legacy of his own. He was so inbred that he was infertile. He was so warped by generations of incest that he actually gained the nickname The Bewitched, because people thought his protruding jaw and large tongue, amongst his other less desirable traits, were the result of a curse. What were the beliefs and attitudes around incest in the 16th century? Why did they keep doing it? And could anything have been done to help Charles? Stick around and we will find out more.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  What do you call him, Anne?

• 2:41Speaker 02

  Oh, money, of course.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  I make perfect compliments of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

• 3:00Speaker 04

  Goodness, what beautiful time. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Derek.

• 3:08Kate Lister?

  Hello and welcome back to Patricksa Sheetz, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Cait Lister. The central question of today's episode is, how incestuous were the Hapstergs? But another question you might be asking yourself is, well, who the hell were they? And that's a fair one, too. And here to answer both those questions is historian Estelle Perronk, who's going to help us get to know this long-running royal dynasty a little bit better and find out why they couldn't stop marrying each other. But before we delve into that, I have to ask you once more, just once more, if you would cast a vote for us at the listeners' choice awards. And you can do this in the link in our show notes. It really would help us out. Right, now that's on the way. More incest. Here we go.

• 3:56Kate Lister?

  Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Estelle Perrinck. How are you doing?

• 4:03Speaker 05

  I'm very good and super excited to be with you today, Kate. It's so exciting.

• 4:07Kate Lister?

  Oh, thank you so much. This is gonna be lots and lots of fun, this one, as well as absolutely horrifying.

• 4:15Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 4:16Kate Lister?

  Because we're talking about the Habsburgs and I normally start by saying, how did you get into this research? But I've got a note here saying that you're related to the Habsburgs. Is that right?

• 4:29Speaker 05

  Yes, it's actually, it's a funny story. So I'm honestly not sure I should, you know, talk about this so much because like when we're gonna talk about, when we talk about the Habsburg, it's gonna be crazy. But basically, my dad loved genealogy. It's so funny because he didn't want me to become a historian, really. And now he's, you know, he's retired and I think like he's becoming the new historian of the family. And he's done all the genealogy, you know, from our side of the family, the Perrinck's. And then from my mum's side, and on my mum's side, we realised that we were actually distant of the Habsburgs. But I promise you, we don't do what they did, right? Like, which we were going to discuss, Kate.

• 5:13Kate Lister?

  Yeah, we'll preface it by saying that. Very distantly related.

• 5:17Speaker 05

  Look, my chin is very small.

• 5:20Kate Lister?

  She has a beautiful chin, everybody. I can absolutely confirm.

• 5:25Speaker 05

  I've never had this compliment before, Kate. You're the best.

• 5:30Kate Lister?

  So there'll be people listening to this going, I don't understand what the issue is. Explain to us who the Habsburgs were and then maybe your reason for going, we don't do that anymore. We'll become a little bit clearer for everyone.

• 5:41Speaker 05

  Yes, I think let's go back to the origins, right? Who they were. So in the 13th century or even before that, even the 10th century, they're kind of a noble family that live in the lands where now it's Switzerland. Obviously, at the time, it was not called Switzerland. They were a noble family, like any other noble family, I would say. But as any noble family, you have ambitions and you always end up on a generation that is massively ambitious. And it's what happened around 1270s, where you had Rudolph the First, so he's the first of the Habsburg, really. You know, like what we know about the Habsburg. And that night, I think is also very interesting, is became the newly elected king of Germany. An elected king.

• 6:23Speaker 05

  Exactly. And it's, I think it's such a surprise for so many people that they were elected kings. Wow. Medieval and early modern period. It's mostly true also for Poland and Lithuania. Where they were like electing uh the kings, actually a a French prince, you know, in the in sixteenth century, became elected Polish king. But here's what happened. But what happened, obviously, elected, you call it elected, like, I mean, it's not an election, like, you know, when the people have their choices. Yeah, okay, yeah. Uh uh uh you know, like, it's not a person who are like, oh, we like this guy. No, no, no. It's more or less, you know, like the noble families agreeing on someone. But at the same time, it was a title that was a bit weird. It was contested by others.

• 7:03Speaker 05

  So he ended up going to war with others. But what's so interesting is that little by little, and like any big, you know, family, any noble family or even royal family, is gonna expand its territory. Yeah. And we end up, so let's move forward, like, you know, we're in the thirteenth century and they grow, you know, they're just a a more and more important family. And I think what people don't realize is these, we call it like this German territories, right? And so there's Vienna, Switzerland, you know. So Vienna, Austria, but Vienna becomes a very important, very important city. Especially, you know, when there's gonna be like with the Ottoman Empires, like. Yep. You know, fights and stuff. But all these stories are gonna become more and more important. And then there's obviously the Holy Roman Empire.

• 7:49Speaker 05

  And the abbot played the cards. Well, again, to become a Holy Roman Emperor, you have to be elected. Again, not by the people. Interesting. Yeah, not not not by women and not by the commoners. Oh, my god, who cares about them, right? Who are they? So they rose to power. What's actually a bit sad is where we're gonna get while we talked about my chin. Is that the evolution of their history or their story in many ways, you know, different stories? Is that at some point they're gonna make an alliance with Spain? And that's that that branch, that's gonna become the biggest problem when you really look at it, when you really look at the genealogy of things.

• 8:28Speaker 05

  So one of them is gonna, he briefly called Philip the first, but he's Philip the handsome. Honestly, I saw some portraits. I don't know. Not that handsome maybe, but handsome for the time. Oh, come on, Ki. You know when people say, maybe other time, I'm like, ugly is ugly.

• 8:47Speaker 05

  A cat is a cat, handsome is handsome, alright like.

• 8:50Kate Lister?

  But someone must have thought he was, or was it ironic? Was it like an ironic name of?

• 8:54Speaker 05

  No, I think, I think maybe the others were, kings and queens were just very ugly. Yes, maybe that's what, anyway, he was called Philip the Handsome, and he's gonna marry Ioanna of Aragon and Castile, the daughter of Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabel of Castile, the sister of Catherine of Aragon, first queen, you know, of Henry the Eighth. And Ioanna of Castile is gonna be called Ioanna the Mad, eh eh, her story is very complicated. And that's when the Albusburg branch starts, really, like the Spanish one, you know. And it's with Charles, Charles the Fifth, is gonna become Holy Roman Emperor.

• 9:34Speaker 05

  So he's gonna like, you know, be the descendant of all the Albusburg in Germany, but now he's also the King of Spain.

• 9:41Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 9:42Speaker 05

  And it's very important here, because here it becomes a real empire. I I want to insist on something.

• 9:48Kate Lister?

  Mm hmm.

• 9:48Speaker 05

  Spain in the 16th century is the strongest power of Europe, okay, of Europe, not, not of the world. You know, I know people think Europe is the world, but it is the most powerful country, more powerful than, way more powerful than France. Sorry for France, but, and way more powerful than England. I mean, England is just, you know, fighting, you know, who could be on the front? Or are you a pretender? Are you this lost prince of England? You know, like, they're like, da, da, da, da, da, no one bloody cares, right? No one.

• 10:19Kate Lister?

  Spain is where it's at.

• 10:20Speaker 05

  Yes, and they, you know, they do the discovery of the new world. But then there are like two massive territories. You have, you have all the German countries that we've discussed, you know, with Austria, Hungary, you know, like, all of these big territories. And now you have Spain, and Charles becomes both, Holy Roman Emperor, you know, that is elected, but really.

• 10:40Kate Lister?

  What is that, by the way? The Holy Roman Emperor, like, cause you've got kings and then you've got the Holy Roman, what is the Holy Roman Emperor?

• 10:48Speaker 05

  Basically, it it's always come with a crusade and it comes with trying to have a land that defends Europe. And that is holy and that. You know, we always talk about, I'm laughing about it because I find it funny, but please don't judge me for that. But you know, the fall of the Roman Empire?

• 11:04Kate Lister?

  Yes.

• 11:04Speaker 05

  It comes from all of it. It's like trying to resurrect, kind of.

• 11:08Kate Lister?

  Oh, okay.

• 11:09Speaker 05

  But at the same time, it's way more complicated than that because you have so many territories, so many duchies, so many people with noble families who could claim territories. And that's why we have the Italian Wars in the first half of the 16th century. It's so highly complicated because France has a claim, us paying as a claim. You know, like so many people have claims through their, you know, ancestors. And but it's also because there was the collapse of the Roman Empire and trying somehow to revive it. And then with the Crusades, it became something that really was important for the people, but also to justify.

• 11:45Kate Lister?

  Okay. Did the Holy Roman Emperor hang out with the Pope? Was that sort of their job?

• 11:49Speaker 05

  That's where it's also interesting. It should have been, but also, you know, let's not forget that Charles the Fifth actually sacked Rome in fifteen twenty seven.

• 11:59Kate Lister?

  Oh, this is complicated, isn't it?

• 12:01Speaker 05

  It always is when there's power and money, isn't it? You know, like when you think back to this world, I love when people are like, oh, it's so complicated now. I'm like, babe.

• 12:11Speaker 05

  I mean, when has it not been complicated? You know, like.

• 12:14Kate Lister?

  Yeah, okay.

• 12:15Speaker 05

  It's been always kind of crazy.

• 12:17Kate Lister?

  So we've got kings and we've got popes and we've got this Holy Roman Emperor who's kind of running around without an empire for now.

• 12:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, but for now, Charles, Charles the Fifth is both. He's the King of Spain and he's the Holy Roman.

• 12:30Kate Lister?

  For a second.

• 12:31Speaker 05

  He's so, he's so, he's so strong, Kate.

• 12:33Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 12:34Speaker 05

  You know, that's, he created lots of power for, for the English, you know, like because he sacked Rome in fifteen twenty seven. He's in total control of the Pope. That's why the Pope don't give an anomen to Henry the Eighth. That's why Henry the Eighth is going to think about, you know what? Sort it. I'm gonna do what I want. And that's really all because, I'm sorry, I'm gonna blame Charles for this, but all because of Charles. All because of an ab回归, right?

• 12:56Kate Lister?

  Wow.

• 12:57Speaker 05

  And then it, it becomes crazy. Let's go back to the chin and stuff because I think people need to understand. It becomes crazy, Kate, when you really, really think about it. Because Charles is gonna want to really secure his power, but not just for him. Like, you know, all these men that have a crazy idea. It's the same with Henry the Eighth. Francis the First of France. Crazy idea about their legacy.

• 13:18Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 13:18Speaker 05

  About their dynasty.

• 13:20Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 13:21Speaker 05

  And he has a son and he has a daughter. He's gonna make his daughter marry his brother.

• 13:25Kate Lister?

  Oh, hang on, hang on. His daughter's gonna marry his brother, so that's uncle and niece marrying together.

• 13:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:32Kate Lister?

  That doesn't sound good.

• 13:34Speaker 05

  They always do this, to the point where Ferdinand, so Ferdinand is the brother of Charles. And Charles, at his death, is gonna split his empire. He's gonna give the Holy Roman Empire to his, to his brother Ferdinand.

• 13:48Kate Lister?

  Ferdinand, yeah.

• 13:49Speaker 05

  And he's gonna give his country, you know, Spain, to his son, Philip the Second of Spain, you know, the, the husband of Mary the First of England. At first.

• 13:57Kate Lister?

  Yes, yes.

• 13:58Speaker 05

  That's why it becomes very interesting, is that Ferdinand is gonna have three children. Two of them are actually going to marry one another, so brother and sister.

• 14:07Kate Lister?

  No, just, we have to have some standards round here, people.

• 14:10Speaker 05

  There's no standards, absolutely no standards.

• 14:13Kate Lister?

  Brothers and sisters, full brothers and sisters.

• 14:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, and he's gonna marry hi- his niece.

• 14:17Kate Lister?

  Shit.

• 14:18Speaker 05

  It doesn't end there. That's why we're gonna talk about the chain.

• 14:21Kate Lister?

  This has gone very Targaryen, hasn't it? This is.

• 14:23Speaker 05

  A completely Targaryen, though the Targaryens are very good looking, and I don't know how, how that happened.

• 14:30Kate Lister?

  That's a good plot point. That's a good, that, that's a good loophole we've picked up on there. Is there too good looking to have been that inbred, quite frankly?

• 14:38Speaker 05

  Like, honestly, the genealogy, honestly, I invite all the listeners here to go and Google the genealogy of the Absburg. Type Spain as well, you'll see how crazy like, so it's niece and uncles, it's brother and sister, it's cousins. Yeah, that, that's, that's the closest one, that's the craziest one.

• 14:55Kate Lister?

  We'll allow a cousin to marry a cousin in royal families.

• 14:58Speaker 05

  They always marry cousins, like, and we're gonna go to this, we're gonna go to every royal families, because I think that right now. There are the example where they took it too far. They, so they took this kind of like, keeping the power, yeah. You know, keeping the power within the family, they got the memo a bit too far, you know.

• 15:16Kate Lister?

  Yeah, they really went with that.

• 15:18Speaker 05

  And and when you look, it's always niece, uncle, cousins. And we end up in the six seventeenth century with Charles the Second, who has this massive, massive chin.

• 15:32Kate Lister?

  How massive?

• 15:33Speaker 05

  Huge. It's like so prominent. To be fair, I say it's funny, but I feel bad for the guy. You know, like, it's not, it's not really his fault, like, you know, that his family did that, right? Like.

• 15:43Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 15:44Speaker 05

  But to a point where a British envoy came to the court, Spanish court, and reported back. I I think in a way to make fun, but also maybe, but, you know, as a shock. He literally wrote, Kate, that the guy can't, you know, eat all food, like, he can't, because his bottom Joe, like the role of the Steve can't touch the top one. So he can't, he can't chew. You know, in a way, I want to say that's the least of his problem because he had lots and lots of illnesses, smallpox, measles. He literally caught everything. He's also like, we believe that he had depression, no doubt, shit, I mean, if you can't chew, I mean, like.

• 16:26Kate Lister?

  Fair.

• 16:27Speaker 05

  I'd be depressed. And he couldn't have, he didn't have any children, he couldn't, I mean, I wasn't there. But, you know, he was probably the one who had the problem, right?

• 16:41Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with a still after this short break.

• 17:04Speaker 06

  Weight won't budge, no matter how disciplined you are? These are all signs that your body isn't producing enough GLP-1, the hormone that keeps you full and supports weight loss. The good news? Bioma GLP-1 Booster helps you increase its natural production. So you can quiet the food noise and enjoy smoother weight management when following a healthy lifestyle. Head to bioma.health/GLP1 and use code PODCAST to get 15% off.

• 17:28Kate Lister?

  Hello, Betwixters. I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up a camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there. And the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.

• 18:09Kate Lister?

  Looking at a picture of him, and I suppose we have to remember that whoever painted that was being paid a lot of money to make this look as good as it possibly could have looked.

• 18:17Speaker 05

  When you said that, it's even worse, Kate.

• 18:19Kate Lister?

  They would have like been, "Make this look as good as you possibly can." And it's still bad.

• 18:24Speaker 05

  He doesn't look good.

• 18:25Kate Lister?

  It's a very oddly shaped head that that fellow has got.

• 18:30Speaker 05

  And lots of his family, like so his ancestors, right? We call it the Absburg Joe, right? Like it's like, it's very prominent. It was never as bad as that. So he was like the worst. He became like the emblem of like inbreeding Absburg family.

• 18:49Kate Lister?

  Yeah, he's the poster by his name.

• 18:50Speaker 05

  He is, and it's kind of like, in a way, it's very sad because when you really look at his life, such poor health, mental health, you know, down the toilet as well. See, just like he almost had nothing going on for, I don't even, you know Kate, you know, we make fun of kings and queens and stuff. And rightly so, because there are lots of powers and wealth and why not, but at the same time, let's not forget that there's a human being here.

• 19:13Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 19:13Speaker 05

  Who must have suffered a great deal. Now, what I love as well is that on the top of um research right now, and there's a lot of great stories, especially in Spain. Researching Carlos the Second's reign, and they're trying to give like a bit more credit.

• 19:28Kate Lister?

  Well, that's nice.

• 19:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, because apparently there's also lots of propaganda, you know, like trying to really make him as ridiculous as possible.

• 19:36Kate Lister?

  Yeah, cause a lot of the stuff that I've read about him doesn't, like, it sounds really bad, cause I was just about to ask you, like, all right, he's got a big jaw and he's not very well, but as a person. What was he like? And a lot of the stuff I've read is, I think I read that like he liked to sit in a bucket and spin round in circles.

• 19:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think all of these are like a way of undermining completely his reign and importance. But I think that uh some researchers have actually described that actually he was not that useless. So. It is true that he was extremely, like, he was poorly and was ill. But he was not just that stupid, and I think it's, it all comes from lots of rumors and gossips around him. And trying to make him as ridiculous as possible. Also, I think, when you really think about it, because of the way he looked, it's very easy to make him a target. You know, we don't think about that, but like, as you said, when you look at a portrait, it really, I mean, so about to say that, but he looks awful. He really looks dreadful.

• 20:33Kate Lister?

  Like, we're in real fuglyville stuff here. There's no saving it. You don't, I'm sorry, but that, that must have been like a really defining feature for this guy though, cause like, there's no escaping it. We can be as polite as we want to be and you know, like, let's be nice and let's not judge people, but like, he looks weird and he can't chew.

• 20:52Speaker 05

  Try to talk that way, Kate, try to put your it forward. It's very hard to pronounce words. So even if you're not like that mentally unstable and you know, it would have been very hard for him to communicate.

• 21:04Kate Lister?

  Very difficult. So he can't eat, he can't really communicate. I do feel quite sorry for him.

• 21:09Speaker 05

  I do, like, honestly, I do, because there's a part of like, of pleasure when you chew, like, you know, like, the textures. All of this is never really experienced.

• 21:19Kate Lister?

  Yeah, lots of soups.

• 21:23Speaker 05

  Yes. Yeah, so.

• 21:25Kate Lister?

  That was my producer's joke. Sorry, Stu, I'm stealing, I'm stealing your jokes.

• 21:30Speaker 05

  I think it's a good one, but you know, it's what the British envoy said, he was just gobbling things up, really.

• 21:37Kate Lister?

  Like, today, we still struggle with how people look. I'm being very nasty and I shouldn't be, but like, we still judge people a lot by what they look like. And we're kind of working on it and we're trying not to do it. But back at this point, when Charles the Second is walking around having his soup, because they had a much more spiritual understanding of physical appearance. So to them, they would have been, if somebody is physically unappealing, they would have equated that with a moral failing. Is, would that be about right? I mean, he is, he is the king. So, you know, like, shut up.

• 22:10Speaker 05

  He's the king, but there, there is a judgment. Also, it's not just that. It's like what we discussed, like, very hard to communicate, very hard to be eloquent, right? So then you start judging his mental ability. What I mean by that is like, his intelligence.

• 22:25Kate Lister?

  Yes.

• 22:25Speaker 05

  And as I said as well, like some scholars in Spain, it's mostly in Spain that they're doing the work, trying to really re-establish him as not this just bad king or just this mad king. And they're trying to, I, I mean, I'm not on top of the research, Kate, but like, I can see your eyes like, oh my God, I want to know more about this.

• 22:41Kate Lister?

  They do.

• 22:43Speaker 05

  But I think they're trying to go beyond the gossips and the rumours and trying to look at what actually happened, what he did. Because, you know, his death is going to trigger the Spanish War of Succession, where France is gonna fight very hard, you know. And also, like, France, like, you know, Louis XIV is married to an abbot, married to a result of Spain. It's her brother Carlos. Like, so like, it's very interesting to see how all the houses, and that's where I think I wanted also to, to go to, because we're talking here about the abbot with, when we end up with Carlos, who's like the one who can't have children anymore, the one who has the most massive jaw.

• 23:24Speaker 05

  But also the one who is very ill, he is very ill. That that's in their medical records. I don't think like there's anything that we can really pretend that didn't happen. Let's not forget. So that these absolute took it too far.

• 23:38Kate Lister?

  Did they work it out that that's what was causing these these defects at the time? I mean, I know genealogies are way off.

• 23:45Speaker 05

  I wonder because I don't think they did because they did it for two centuries.

• 23:49Kate Lister?

  Yeah, they didn't figure that out, did they? No.

• 23:51Speaker 05

  One hundred and fifty years. So I don't think they, because even Charles the first, that's got this kind of prominent, not as bad. No, you know, even Philip the second, when you look Philip the second, marry the um marry the first. Yeah, but you don't think you, I mean. You, yeah, fine. It's, you know, it's okay. But it's when they kept doing, like when you really look at their genealogy, usually you're supposed to have a set of four grandparents, like, you know. Then you have sixty, you know, it goes eight, sixteen. They don't have that. It's just all, they share the same grandparents. They have like same aunts. Like it it becomes crazy. Someone's niece is someone's wife and then someone's mother and the the aunt of someone else that worshiped Ash is actually also a cousin. It's why you end up with Carlos, right? It's like boom, you because you've done all of this.

• 24:36Speaker 05

  Nah, I won't. I'm not trying to defend the Arabs, but but am I? It looks like I'm going to. Others did that as well, like not as bad. But you know, the royal families of Europe did marry one another. They were cousins sometimes. But it was never as such repetition. They're saying that as well. When you look at Victoria and you know, there were some theories that, and I think at that point. Because of what happened with the Absburg and Carlos, they were kind of aware of being careful of not marrying too much. Because all the royal families, you know, I love it when you're like, oh, the British royal family, but the British royal family is also Spanish, is also French, is also, you know. And same with the others, right? Austrian family is also like British, you know. So they all marry.

• 25:22Speaker 05

  One another, because it's the elites, right? It's how you keep a power.

• 25:26Kate Lister?

  It's kind of a small dating pool as well. If you say, look, we can only marry other royals, that you're not allowed to to marry anyone who isn't a royal, then you've immediately limited it to, right, well, then it's just the family then, isn't it? That's it. That's the only people. That's it's such a stupid plan.

• 25:43Speaker 05

  But that's where you sometimes you do have noble families. Let's not forget, like, you know, there there are some big duchesses, like, you know, the Duchy of Aquitaine, you know, with Eleanor Aquitaine being such a big prize for everyone, but also herself being related somehow to some of these men. So I think it's kind of, as I said, the abbot took the memo too far.

• 26:03Kate Lister?

  Like, they took it further than anyone else, really, that I've heard about, apart from maybe the Egyptian royal family, like brothers and sisters. That's it's pretty intense, that, isn't it?

• 26:13Speaker 05

  It is pretty intense. It it it didn't happen all the, obviously, like, they tried to avoid that, but like, nieces and uncle, you know, when when everyone was shocked, I don't know, like, you you watch Game of Thrones, right, Kate?

• 26:24Kate Lister?

  Yes.

• 26:24Speaker 05

  Like, yeah, you know, when, oh, my god, Daenerys is, you know, the aunt of Jon Snow. Oh, my god, oh, my god, that's so, what do you mean, it's so bad? Like, it's nothing.

• 26:34Kate Lister?

  It's a slow Tuesday for the Habsburgs, that. That's just.

• 26:38Speaker 05

  That's just normal. Like, they should definitely marry and conquer the world. Like, what? What are you talking about?

• 26:43Kate Lister?

  It would be weird if they didn't do it, quite frankly.

• 26:46Speaker 05

  And with the House of Dragon, I don't know if you watched that, so, you know, it's the prequel to Game of Thrones, but like, you have also, the queen is marrying her uncle as well, to keep the tiger in blood, right?

• 26:57Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 26:58Speaker 05

  And when they don't, which is funny, because, you know, when he didn't and married, like, the king, her father, just married someone who was outside of the family, and then somehow her kids are weird. That makes no sense, does it? Like, her kids doesn't seem to be completely stable. I just thought, like, it's it's funny how fiction can can change rules easily like that.

• 27:20Kate Lister?

  I think so. It's amazing, though, when we were all watching Game of Thrones, when we first started that show, and we were like, oh, my god, this is awful, like, brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, like, Jaime and and Cersei, how awful. But then, like, really quickly, within a few episodes, we were all going, oh, it's a shame they're not getting together anymore. And like, all, like, normal parameters have just gone out the window, like, oh, no, Jon Snow, I think you should shag your auntie. It's so sad that you can't. It's just.

• 27:45Speaker 05

  Literally, you're like, oh my god, no, why are they related? And then you don't care. You're like, yeah, do it.

• 27:49Kate Lister?

  And then you don't care anymore. So I guess maybe, maybe that's what was happening back in the day is it was just meh, whatever.

• 27:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think in the end, what was more important, Kate, for them was to retain the power. You have to understand here that we're talking about huge empire. That it meant that, you know, even though we call it elected, it was by people that were gonna elect the same family. So as long as they kept it together.

• 28:12Kate Lister?

  Then that's the best thing, right?

• 28:13Speaker 05

  They felt extremely safe and they felt as well like that they were in control of the other royal houses. And in many ways they were, because obviously, you know, France and England were not doing that. They were not marrying one another just to keep, you know, power. And so it was a way for, for the Absburg to never share. I think they feared that someone would say, oh, but, you know, I mean, imagine like they married an English princess instead of a cousin or their sister or whatever. And then she has a maire. That maire could contest the uncle and it would be English. And so then it would be England who becomes more powerful. So I think here it's really about, there's an obsession with this dynasty about power.

• 28:57Kate Lister?

  It's far better to have somebody that can't eat food or talk properly than risk an English prince coming over.

• 29:10Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Estelle after this short break.

• 29:24Kate Lister?

  Hello, Betwixters. I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that.

• 29:53Kate Lister?

  Right, let's get on with it.

• 30:06Speaker 05

  Carlos didn't have any kids, at all.

• 30:08Kate Lister?

  No, no.

• 30:09Speaker 05

  I mean, again, I wasn't there, but there are rumours that he couldn't get it up.

• 30:13Kate Lister?

  Oh.

• 30:14Speaker 05

  And there's a rumour, okay, okay, Kate, you're gonna love this, you're gonna love this. I think he, there's a report that said he had only one testicle.

• 30:22Kate Lister?

  This is the son of Carlos, is it?

• 30:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, the one with the, the poster guy.

• 30:26Kate Lister?

  The huge.

• 30:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:28Kate Lister?

  He didn't have testicles, he has a jaw so big that he can't eat.

• 30:31Speaker 05

  Just one testicle, instead of two.

• 30:33Kate Lister?

  This isn't good, is it?

• 30:35Speaker 05

  To this point, I don't even know if he, I don't know, I wasn't there, did he try? I don't know.

• 30:40Kate Lister?

  I mean, I imagine that some effort would have been put into it, the amount of concern that these people have about preserving dynasty. They're not gonna let him with his one testicle get away with this. I assume somebody would have tried to help this lad do what he was supposed to do.

• 30:58Speaker 05

  Well, it failed.

• 31:00Kate Lister?

  It failed, no children.

• 31:02Speaker 05

  Massive failure, but, but, but, massive failure. You know, I said massive failure, so it's the end of his, there's a war of succession. But it doesn't, the absolute don't end there, but what ends though is this very strong in breeding, you know. So for example, I always get the comment about Marie Antoinette being a herb book, right?

• 31:20Kate Lister?

  I was just about to ask you about her, yeah.

• 31:22Speaker 05

  Maria Theresa, right, her mother. But here we're talking about the 18th century, so you know, like when Carlos, Carlos dies in 1700. That's the end of all these crazy, like the others, you know, there are some branches. And that's probably where I come from, guys, look at my little chin.

• 31:38Kate Lister?

  She has lovely chin and she can talk properly as well, you can, you've heard her for yourself. There's no, there's no incest going on here.

• 31:48Kate Lister?

  My grandparents were cousins and my, whenever I say that on the show, my mum tells me to point out that it wasn't her family that did that. It was on my dad's side.

• 31:56Speaker 05

  I, I, you're not from my family.

• 31:58Kate Lister?

  Not, it wasn't my family that did that, thank you very much, but like it still happens, doesn't it?

• 32:04Speaker 05

  But it was accepted, I mean, the first comes in his heart, but like, I mean, it's, I think now it's really. From the bone, like you're like.

• 32:11Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 32:12Speaker 05

  But second cousin and stuff, of course, there are some that, you know, managed to do that. But I think sometimes you don't even realise you're related, you know, because it's it's cousins but from different branches.

• 32:21Kate Lister?

  God, yeah, sometimes they might not even realise properly how how related they are.

• 32:26Speaker 05

  But but it's not that, then it's not that bad, is it? Uh we're not talking here about, you know, brother and sister, first cousins or niece and uncle, right? Like niece and uncle is very linked as well.

• 32:37Kate Lister?

  Weird that one.

• 32:38Speaker 05

  So, you know, Maria Theresa and Marie Antoinette, they are Habsburg, but they are from the next. They're in the seventeen hundred, eighteen hundred, like, well, seventeen hundred, and it's later on. And they no longer have, you know, some people love making fun of Marie Antoinette, oh, but look at her chin a bit. But honestly, you're just being a pratt here because that's not true. Like, I'm sorry, she's beautiful.

• 33:00Kate Lister?

  Did she have a completely not, did she have any health issues that you might have said were the result of inbreeding or or she got away with it?

• 33:07Speaker 05

  Not that I'm aware of, no. Also, I don't think there's, as I said, I think it it ends with Carlos, really. And then obviously the Habsburg are gonna last longer in the eighteenth century, nineteenth century. And uh the real end is like for any, not any, but lots of royal families, if you have a revolution like in France. You know what, like, you know, the industrial revolution, eighteen fifty, and then the war is really when there's a shift of everything changing. And where, you know, these families no longer have grounds for power.

• 33:41Kate Lister?

  So there's still a Habsburg dynasty today, is it just you, just carrying on?

• 33:44Speaker 05

  I mean, if it was me, like, there's lots of castles that I want, Kate, I don't.

• 33:50Speaker 05

  I'm greedy.

• 33:50Kate Lister?

  We'll find an army, we'll find an army and we'll go and get your ancestral lands back immediately.

• 33:55Speaker 05

  You know what, it's so funny because on my dad's side, we're actually related to the British royal family and my dad was like, go there. And ask them to have some rooms in Buckingham Palace. And I was like, I'm sure they would love to give me one room in Buckingham Palace. Just because I was related to Eleanor of Provence, you know, who was Queen of England in the medieval ages.

• 34:14Kate Lister?

  So where are the Habsburgs today then? Is there still a Habsburg dynasty? Are they still marrying? Are they still in control of anything?

• 34:21Speaker 05

  I wouldn't say so, but I think what we forget is that obviously, you know, with all the changes, it's the same with the royal, the French royal family. You know, there are some people that are like direct descendant of Louis the Sixteenth and. If we decided to restore the monarchy, I'm sure we could find someone. So now I'm wondering that maybe if they were trying to restore the Habsburg. Obviously, and there's a Spanish royal family that is still survived, right? So they're descendants of them as well.

• 34:47Kate Lister?

  Yes, yeah, that's true.

• 34:49Speaker 05

  But I guess there's a problem here, like with the German countries and stuff. The world has changed so much, right? The territory, like now they're countries, they're sovereign countries and what land would be. So I would say that this, obviously the Spanish monarchy is the.

• 35:03Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 35:03Speaker 05

  Like, that still exists and still in power and maybe I should ask them for room in their palace.

• 35:09Kate Lister?

  I'd support you. I think that that's a good idea. So what can we learn from from the Habsburgs then? Cause they have kind of gone down in history as this, this like absolutely mad bunch of crazy people who kept. Marrying everybody at a family get together, like not a good idea. I was doing some research around inbreeding and I'm gonna be very careful what I say, cause I don't want anyone to think this is a good idea. But like to really get genetic defects, it has to be multiple, like inbreeding, a very close. Relations. So marrying your cousin or your second cousin, you're probably, probably gonna be all right, as long as those kids don't also marry their.

• 35:47Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 35:47Kate Lister?

  But they were too close and so they've just become this.

• 35:50Speaker 05

  But they kept marrying also their cousins, right? It's not just one generation that was a problem.

• 35:54Kate Lister?

  Again and again.

• 35:55Speaker 05

  And they kept doing it for one hundred and fifty years.

• 35:58Kate Lister?

  A hundred and fifty years.

• 36:00Speaker 05

  Kate, I'm gonna say something that I think is gonna scare you a little.

• 36:03Kate Lister?

  Okay, go on.

• 36:04Speaker 05

  I'm sorry, please don't hate me. Think about it. Like, you're saying that, you know, the Habsburg is like this crazy, you know, family, like inbreeding family, right? At the same time, it's the most powerful one.

• 36:15Kate Lister?

  God, that is scary.

• 36:16Speaker 05

  They're all calling the shots. They're all the ones, like they go to war. I mean, we always make fun, you know, of Spain and, you know. Um, that the English, and I love that, you know, that Elizabeth I won against Spain, uh, Spain and Philip the second. At the same, he came back in fifteen ninety three. There was constant wars. We're talking here about the Spain conquered. You know, the Americas.

• 36:39Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 05

  North America, but Central America, South America. All of this is the abbot. So for people who are completely just in like, I mean, it worked for a long time. And what's very interesting also, I think, and I just want to say that because I do lots of women history. Women are very important in the abbot. They're also calling the shots. Some of them are governors, like in their own rights of some lands and stuff. So I think that's in many ways, it's weird. I think because it's then their own family, there's lots of respect as well. For women's role, women, you know, that you don't necessarily have with, you know, like if you look at Henry the Eighth and how much he respected his wives.

• 37:17Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 37:18Speaker 05

  Do you see what I mean? So I think that's interesting to see it that way as well.

• 37:21Kate Lister?

  Generational inbreeding can lead to birth defects, but also global colonization in some cases. That's the lesson.

• 37:32Speaker 05

  Great. I'm not sure that's going to be a publishable episode.

• 37:37Kate Lister?

  As a final question, have they left us any legacy beyond looking at them going, yeah, don't marry your uncle. That's a great idea, like in a sense of dynasty or or country or military, have they left us anything?

• 37:52Speaker 05

  Spain.

• 37:52Kate Lister?

  Spain?

• 37:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, they left us Spain.

• 37:54Kate Lister?

  That's not bad, is it?

• 37:56Speaker 05

  The abbot are gonna, obviously, there's the massive fall with Carlos. So then, you know, the inbreeding is gonna stop kind of thing on that level. But they did continue. They kept being a very important country, European country, and even global country. Like, let's face it, we're talking again about, as you said, you know, global empires. Unfortunately, the Europeans did a lot of that and Spain is one of them, so.

• 38:19Kate Lister?

  No, it's all bad.

• 38:20Speaker 05

  Yeah. I'm sure people will disagree with you on that.

• 38:23Kate Lister?

  As though you've been so much fun to talk to, I knew you would be. And if people want to know more about you and your work, and if they want to send you their thoughts on this episode. Where can they find you?

• 38:34Speaker 05

  Uh, they can find, um, mostly on Instagram nowadays because I can't stand any other platforms at the minute.

• 38:39Kate Lister?

  Speaking of dynasties, yep.

• 38:41Speaker 05

  Exactly. Otherwise, I I work mostly on European monarchies, royalties, diplomatic relations. And I've published distinctively on Elizabeth the First and Berlin, but also with their relations with Europe, which I know so much about.

• 38:55Kate Lister?

  Brilliant. Thank you so much for joining us. You've been an absolute hoot.

• 38:59Speaker 05

  Thank you, Kate.

• 39:05Kate Lister?

  Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Estelle for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject, or maybe you just wanted to say hello, you can email us at [email protected]. Coming up, we've got episodes on Cleopatra in our Royal Sex series and an episode about who were the Vestal Virgins, all coming your way. This podcast was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwixt a Sheet, the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.