5 Signs Your Spiritual Health Is Destroying Your Physical Health | Stasi Eldredge

Stasi Eldredge thought she’d had an ideal childhood—until her husband, John, told her, “You're raging and it's hurting our children.” His honesty sparked a journey toward healing the wounds she hadn’t recognized. Dr. Josh Axe sits down with Stasi, co-author of Captivating and author of The Ladder of Love, to explore how emotional healing and spiritual breakthroughs connect to physical health—and how reexamining our stories can reshape our understanding of God and ourselves.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Josh Axe?

  Eighty percent of doctor's visits are stress related. How do those different things impact the soul?

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Oh, the same way.

• 0:08Josh Axe?

  It seems like all of us have something in our lives that's disconnecting us from Jesus.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, being wounded and coming to believe false things about love.

• 0:20Josh Axe?

  Guilt, shame, resentment. What is the best process for people? Letting go and healing.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  Writing the story.

• 0:28Josh Axe?

  Yes, yeah.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Just the physical act of writing it down.

• 0:32Josh Axe?

  How do we go from knowing about God to truly experiencing God?

• 0:36Speaker 01

  Oh, it's really something that we grow in, but it does begin with asking.

• 0:53Josh Axe?

  Listen, I talk to people every week who have spent thousands on their health with no answers, who want to work with a healthcare team that actually treats their body as something to steward and their faith as part of the plan. And that's why we built the Health Institute and why we have hundreds of five-star reviews from people just like you who have finally felt seen, heard, and found lasting health. It starts with a cellular blood work analysis, an at-home blood test kit, plus a full hour review with one of my senior health advisors. If you're not a good fit for one of our cellular healing protocols, our team will tell you directly and the blood work is still yours to keep and to take to your own primary or functional medicine doctor.

• 1:35Josh Axe?

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• 1:47Josh Axe?

  Sometimes healing comes through changing your diet, exercise, or addressing a nutritional deficiency, but oftentimes it comes through a channel that you may not expect, and that is spiritual breakthroughs and emotional healing. And today I've brought on Stacy Eldredge. She's the author of the book Captivating. I had her husband, John, on here pretty recently. She's the author of the new book, The Ladder of Love. And today we're going to explore and walk through how you can experience true emotional and spiritual breakthroughs for physical healing. Stacy, welcome to the show.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:20Josh Axe?

  Well, you know, I followed your work and John's work for a long time. You know, John was on the show, I think about a year ago.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  And you loved it.

• 2:26Josh Axe?

  And I was just so, you know, just, I love, I love the books you've, you guys have written. I love, just, you guys have great demeanors. Just, you know, I feel like there's just a really great energy about you and John both.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:39Josh Axe?

  And I read Wild at Heart when I was in college. And this had probably been, I don't know, this is probably like 2002.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:49Josh Axe?

  So a while ago. And then about a year or so after, somebody's like, hey, if you want to get to know women better, read Captivating. And I read, read your book as well.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 2:59Josh Axe?

  And it was, it was wonderful.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  I'm so glad. It was, I wrote it with John. It's really, people think of it as my book. I love your book. Thank you, is all I say. But it's really a 50/50 book. We took turns, chapter to chapter. It was my first book to write and it was such a great experience to do it with him and to learn from him. How do you do this thing? So, yeah, thank you. I'm glad that you read it.

• 3:21Josh Axe?

  Yeah, it was fantastic. I'll tell you a quick story. So when I had my practice here, I had, well, and I have another, I have a practice now, but I didn't practice for a while. And, but I opened a clinic here. And one thing that I was always very conscious of, even in my, my medical practice, was helping people spiritually and emotionally and wanting to help them heal.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:42Josh Axe?

  And so, one thing we started doing in my practices, because we had, it was just a range of people, a lot of families, but sometimes, you know, I might notice that it might be beneficial for, you know, a man or woman to just continue to learn. So I'd give them books. So we had Captivating books. We had Wild at Heart books. We had a bunch of books. And we also would have CDs. People still listened to CDs then, and we'd give them CDs. And so, if I felt like somebody had an esteem issue or would really benefit from connecting more with God, I would give them the book. And then over time, my staff, I had a bunch of females on staff, and I was single at the time and I was probably like 26, 27 years old. Some of the girls, I think, got the wrong idea by me giving them gifts. And so then, we had a real work. Now my, my staff started giving all of them books.

• 4:26Josh Axe?

  But anyways, yours was one of the books, because I love that book, because it was sort of getting to know our identity in Christ, I think was a big part of understanding. And I thought it was such an important part of healing is knowing our identity.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Absolutely, 100%. I would say that's the core of it. And then honoring who God created you to be.

• 4:45Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Owning it rather than diminishing it or thinking, I'm, I'm weird to want these things. So I think two things about it are so powerful is to know, I share this with other women. We're unique, we're constant into cookie cutters. We are unique, but there are themes to our lives. And then to go, no, these are worthy. These are honorable. I don't need to be embarrassed of them. I can embrace them. So I love that.

• 5:12Josh Axe?

  Yeah, and I think part of the message that really resonated with me is understanding too, in coming out of the health field is, if you're not living in tune with the way God created you to be, you end up sick. You end up lonely. You end up unmotivated. You end up unfulfilled. And so I really felt very aware after reading both of those books, that, you know what? I'm meant to pursue. I'm meant to, woo, I'm meant to, you know, you know, fight for my, you know, for my wife and my family. And then there's this reason why I want to, you know, passionately go after things. And very similar, Chelsea wants to be pursued and also us to make decisions cohesively. So there are a lot of things that I really, I think they were, they were just so validating

• 5:53Josh Axe?

  to, to, to your point, to, I have these feelings and, and there's a reason why.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  There is a reason why. And it's like you said, if you're being driven, and most of us are, nobody gets out of this world unscathed. We all have a story and you, you have to address it. Because the wounds that we carry, they affect every part of our being, physically, emotionally, spiritually. And so, it's, it's actually a great journey that people don't have to be afraid of to do with God and unearth maybe parts of their story they even haven't looked at yet, where not only have they perhaps learned God wrong, but they've learned themselves wrong. And then, and then to get the pieces in place. And Captivating is a journey into the heart of God, but there you find yourself.

• 6:45Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Your true identity. And then from there, you get to live the life that you were born to live and not live reactive or under the canopy of shame or words that other people have spoken over you or named you. The more we shift our identity into who we truly are, then the freer we are, the healthier we are in every facet of our being. You know this to be true.

• 7:10Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:11Josh Axe?

  Yeah, I love that. You know, one of the things that I really love that you've been teaching recently is this idea of, and by the way, I want to mention, there is a sermon I listened to, I don't know, it was probably 10 years ago. And I would say there, there are, I've heard thousands of sermons, you've heard thousands of sermons, and there's a few sermons that I would say, just change the way, just change my life, like radically change my life. And the sermon was all about how, don't focus on loving God. Focus on how much God loves you.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Ooh, that's good.

• 7:40Josh Axe?

  And how, if you, if that's where you start, is just understanding how much He loves you, then, then the love just sort of naturally comes back in return. Versus there's a lot of people today trying to say, I'm just trying to love God. I'm trying to do good. And it's, it actually is, can be pretty hard for people.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Very hard for people. It's hard for people even to receive the love of God. But that's such a, that's it. Swim in it. You're, you're marinating in it. You can't come to the end of the immeasurable, bountiful love of God. So I always encourage people, just, just try it on. Maybe it bounces off your heart when you, like, God loves everybody else. That's very easy to believe, but to turn it into your own, He loves me. Not only does He love me, He likes me. He made me me on purpose.

• 8:28Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  And to have that transform you, so I'll say, just try it on. Just put it on for 15 minutes. If you can get up to a whole day, just try believing that you are loved. You are the apple of His eye. It was for you. It's all for you. And you're right, that shifts things.

• 8:46Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  That shifts things.

• 8:47Josh Axe?

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's incredibly powerful. I think, I think if we go around to the average person and say, do you feel completely loved? Do you feel seen? Do you feel cherished? You know, I think most people would say they, they don't. I think a lot of people, you know, maybe because, again, going back to the identity thing, I think so many people today, and, and I, I know that this is probably true even more for women in particular, in terms of low self-esteem, low self-worth and value, just because I've got sisters, I've got a mom, I've got a wife, I've got daughters, you know? And I think it's something that maybe, maybe women struggle with even more. And why do you think that, that is in it? Do you think I'm right with, with that?

• 9:24Speaker 01

  I think you're right. And I think the world is always screaming at women that they are not, fill in the blank, or you are too much, or you're not enough. And then you think about the reality that beauty is so core to a woman's heart, not just her appearance, that's the extra, but the internal beauty of her life and what she offers, what people experience in her presence, but also her external beauty. Because the world will tell you, that's all that matters.

• 9:55Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  And let's hold up this standard of what is beautiful and, and what is it? Like 1% of the population can actually attain to that?

• 10:04Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  But they said, but try, spend a lot of money and try.

• 10:07Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Because you try again and you're not going to make it. So that, that, that weighs on a woman's heart. And then also the fact that the glory that we bear of the image of God is the place where we receive the most wounds, primarily through other people, word spoken, love withheld, getting the message that, well, you would be lovable if you were more this or that or something funner, something smarter, someone else. So that's just a message. I mean, men have it as well, of course.

• 10:43Josh Axe?

  Sure, yeah.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  But, but women.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Or tender. I mean, they're fierce as well, but yet, but the fierceness against a woman's heart, I think is pretty vicious.

• 10:55Josh Axe?

  Yeah. Yeah, I know. One of the things you talk about, you've got a new book. It's called The Ladder of Love. And so talk us about, what is this ladder exactly?

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Okay, I love this. So, the ladder of love. First off, why a ladder? It's, it's really a metaphor for a physical ladder. When you're climbing a ladder, it has to be on a firm foundation. It can't be wobbly. Our foundation is Jesus Christ. Some people will put their ladder on their, their work, their relationships, their finances. That will wobble. So you put it on Jesus and what he says. And then there are rungs where you get higher, or perhaps deeper in knowing the true heart of God in one of the facets that he has revealed himself to us in. Because the scriptures are full of metaphors. So the first rung would be that

• 11:43Speaker 01

  I write about is clay. We are all clay formed from our potter's hands, the work of his, the work of his fingertips formed from the dust and continually being shaped by God for our unique purpose. And then the next rung would be sheep. We are members of his flock. So clay stunt, and you are always clay. That's the other thing about a ladder. When you climb, you don't lose the bottom rungs, but they build. And there is an ascension, a progression in intimacy. So clay, yes, always. And the honor of that, the honor of our bodies, of being fashioned in the image of God, of embodying Christ. And then sheep, which are not inanimate

• 12:24Speaker 01

  objects, they're alive. And then comes servant. So now we're, now we're human. I like to rename servant to devoted ones, because there's something about being a servant that can be diminished when it's such a high and holy calling. Then it goes up to child, then to sibling, friend, and ultimately bride. And you never lose it, nor do you ever come to the end of plumbing the depths of what it means, or plumbing the depths of God's heart. It's an endless pursuit through all eternity. We'll never come to the end of learning who he is, and the beauty of who he is. But in that, in knowing who he is, we come to know

• 13:05Speaker 01

  ourselves as well. What does it mean to be crafted by God? What does it mean to be one of this flock? Or a devoted one? Or a child of the living God, to have him as our father? And, and ultimately then the brother, to have him as a brother. So it's an ascension, and it's one that requires emotional healing and spiritual healing. Because all of us, excuse me, have places where we have learned God wrong.

• 13:40Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  Most of us know that. We get our, our perception of who he is as father from our earthly fathers. And you may have the best father in the world, and I hope you do, but they still have failed you. There's no perfect human father out there. So there's reframing that needs to be done. Because our experiences can warp our perception of who God is as father. What does it mean that Jesus is our brother? Our brother in arms, who he sends shoulder and shoulder with, who knows the inside scoop of our stories. And you may have received harm from a sibling. Well, God can come, and he wants to come for every place that we have learned him wrong, and reframe it, heal us, and help us to learn him rightly.

• 14:26Josh Axe?

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think this is incredibly important, especially when I think about physical health. You know, I think there are certain conditions that I think are very much tied to our spiritual and mental health. I think cancer is at the very top of that list. I would say that autoimmune disease is very high on that list. But, but I think almost, in almost any type of hormone imbalance, you know, I mean, I know this physiologically, that I actually just recorded a whole podcast episode on how to reverse high cortisol. But it's, you know, if you're dealing with, if you're in a fight or flight state, if you don't feel safe, if you don't feel secure, if you feel like everything is on you, fear, worry, this drives cortisol high, cortisol gets high. Well, again, where

• 15:08Josh Axe?

  did that all start? It started with not feeling safe, not feeling secure, trying to strive and do everything yourself, saying yes to everything. These are spiritual issues. And I've always said that I truly believe that our spiritual connection to God, our relationships, our spiritual and emotional health, is more important to our physical health than even our diet or exercise. It's, it's, it is, it is the single greatest thing that impacts our, our physical health that day to day.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I a hundred percent agree with you. And when you think of our relationships, that's a hundred percent the most important thing in our relationships, in our marriages, in our parenting, in our friendships, and in our, our work. Like, when we know who we are, when we are at rest, not in fight and fight, when we can actually be at rest in receiving and believing the love of God, then it will change everything. When you know it's not up to you. When you know it's, if, if you don't perform, or you don't reach a certain level, that it doesn't mean you're going to be abandoned or forgotten. No, nothing can change the place that you hold in God's heart. And the more you believe that, then

• 16:21Speaker 01

  the more healthy you are going to be in every way. And the more, you're going to be more nice, too, more fun to be around.

• 16:27Josh Axe?

  Yeah. Yeah. You know, I had this, I did a couple of years ago, I had a big loss of a family member, my father-in-law, and it was really hard. And, and with that, I went and saw this man, he did something called Heart Sync. And it was, it was really, really helpful. And, and the exercise we did was, and listen, I, I, you know, read my Bible almost every morning, and I listen to Bible on audio and go to, you know, I'm just very, you know, connected to God daily. But the exercise he had me do, and he has, I think everyone he works with do, is he said, hey, you know, what, what is your, he said, I want you to imagine you're in this room. Okay. And then there's a door, and Jesus is on, on the other side. And he's like, tell me about that door right now. The first thing

• 17:09Josh Axe?

  you think? Is it closed? Is it cracked? Is it wide open? You know? And I said, well, it's, it's like, it's half open, you know, it's something like that. And he said, why isn't it fully open? Why isn't it a hundred percent open? And I dive in and explore that and work through some things and think through that. And this is even after, again, for myself, like, you know, I've taught sermons, and I've, I've written books on, you know, like, and, and I, and, and so it's, I think even the most devout people, and this is including pastors and ministers and missionaries, and, but also just a lot, a lot of laypeople or Christian churchgoers. It seems like all of us have something in our lives that's

• 17:52Josh Axe?

  disconnecting us from, from, from, from Jesus.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Or many things.

• 17:58Josh Axe?

  Yeah. What, what, what are some of the, what are some of the, the biggest things you think that typically create that barrier?

• 18:05Speaker 01

  And being wounded, and coming to believe false things about love.

• 18:11Josh Axe?

  Yeah, wow.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Like, it would be good to answer the question in a, in a place of honesty, fill in the blank, love is, love is painful, love is trustworthy, love is dangerous, love is safe, what have you. And everybody has a story there, what they've learned about love. Because God is love. And so are we open to being loved? Or do we need care? And we all need care. And I, I love that you said you're do, you did it recently, because there's always more.

• 18:49Josh Axe?

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  There's more to be had. And so for people that think, what, I'm here again, I've done so much work, and I've really progressed, and I'm back here, and I feel stuck. Well, the answer is, yeah, there's more. And it doesn't negate the good work that you've already done.

• 19:05Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  But there's more. So the, the primary thing is, what have you come to learn about love from your childhood, from your, your teenage years, your young adult years? How were you treated? And then to take the risk of inviting Jesus to come. He is the healer. He said, I came to heal the brokenhearted and set the captive free. So there is more available. There is.

• 19:30Josh Axe?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I can see right now, I think, I think there's a lot of people who feel like, in order to get love, I need to do something.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Right. Tell me what to do, and I'll do it.

• 19:39Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm curious about? Your, the exercise with the door. Did he, did he also say, what does the door look like?

• 19:47Josh Axe?

  Oh, yeah, of course.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:49Josh Axe?

  It was a color, it was a, you know.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  What's it made of?

• 19:52Josh Axe?

  Yeah. What's the handle? And it was a very, it was three hours of me kind of like this exercise, closing my eyes and just, you know, and, and praying and with this, you know, amazing, amazing man who, you know, does counseling, does it for a living, is incredibly, incredibly helpful. But yes, it was very, and we worked through, hey, now the door's wide open. Like, like, here's how we, we worked through this. Yeah.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:17Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  That's a great exercise. Because I love, I love the verse in Revelation 320, behold, I stand at the door and knock, right? And we use that for people coming to Christ the first way, the step of faith. But it's written to Christians.

• 20:31Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  It's to Christians. So, so there's, there's places that we have shut out to God. We've shut him outside the door.

• 20:39Josh Axe?

  Well, can I tell you too? So I, you know, in, in practice, I, I have seen it to where I talked about somebody with cancer, somebody with autoimmune disease. Like, I think that here, here's what I found. If I am working with somebody, and we change their diet.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:54Josh Axe?

  And they maybe saw a 50% improvement, or, or whatever it is. And then they hit this roadblock.

• 21:01Josh Axe?

  The biggest roadblock is this thing of I have childhood trauma.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:05Josh Axe?

  And I've, I've never, I've never dealt with it. And it's a lot of Christians. And a lot of times I think, they think, well, you know what, like, once I became a Christian or, you know, that stuff just went away. But it doesn't.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  If only.

• 21:18Josh Axe?

  It's still there. It's still there.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  There's a lot of things that happen when you become a Christian that are instantaneous.

• 21:24Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  And there are some things that heals you from immediately. There may be some addictions that boom,

• 21:29Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  you are free of.

• 21:30Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  But God is a God of process. I know a lot of Christians take the verse behold, you know, the old is gone and the new has come. And yes, it has.

• 21:40Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  And God honors your story. He is, he wants to rewrite even passages of it so that you can, you can have it reframed and see it. But invite him into it to heal it. There's no trauma that's out of his reach.

• 21:56Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Even though it might feel like it.

• 21:58Josh Axe?

  Well, what is part of that process if somebody is dealing right now with, you know, guilt, shame, resentment, I mean, it's from, from, from the past.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:10Josh Axe?

  What, what, what is, what is the best process or a process that, that, that is helpful for people? Letting go and healing from this sort of tra- trauma.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. The, the, oh, there's so much in it. That the first thing would be being willing to go there.

• 22:28Josh Axe?

  Yes.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  And I remember when I first started doing my own work, I thought if I started to cry, I would never stop. So I was, I was terrified to go there. And, and a lot of people feel that. If the pain is so intense, if I let myself feel it, it will bury me. But the truth is, it won't. Even emotions have a lifespan.

• 22:49Josh Axe?

  It's funny. I think women feel that. I think men feel like I'm not supposed to cry.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  You're not supposed to cry.

• 22:55Josh Axe?

  And I can't turn it, but it's.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  Because it's weakness or something.

• 22:57Josh Axe?

  And so it's probably a different thing for men, but for women.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  But for women.

• 23:00Josh Axe?

  I totally see that.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. But to, to risk it. And again,

• 23:05Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  it's inviting God in.

• 23:06Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  To the deep places. It may involve, it may involve forgiving God. That's, no, he doesn't need our forgiveness. He's perfect. And yet there are places where we hold a fence against him for something that happened in our lives. And so to allow that he is good and begin to invite him in, whatever the process is, wherever you are in it. Say you're feeling really disappointed in fill in the blank, or you're feeling really angry. Invite God into it and then love him from there. Maybe you will feel it, but even to say, I love you, God. I love you in my disappointment. I love you in my pain.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  I love you and I, I invite you to come for me and just begin the work. And again, I've said this a lot, but honor your story. Your story is worth your tears. I'm, I'm a big believer in Christian counseling. I think sitting with a trusted friend or a trusted therapist, whoever that person is, and having someone else's eyes on your story is a great gift.

• 24:15Josh Axe?

  Yep.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Just even their reaction, because we think it was normal. Or what we're struggling with is normal. And we might say what, you know, in a trusted situation, what happened? See their reaction.

• 24:28Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  They might be appalled or shocked or cry and you go, what? That in and of itself is, is healing.

• 24:35Josh Axe?

  It is so beneficial. I've done this a couple of times in my life. I remember when I was coming out of college.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:39Josh Axe?

  My, my senior year, I went through a program. It was called the bondage breaker, a guy named Neil Anderson.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Love it. Yeah. So good.

• 24:46Josh Axe?

  It was so incredible for me of just working with a man that was, you know, I'm in my twenties, he's in his sixties. And just being able to like, you know, have him hear it and him, well, you'll work through this process of prayer. And I've had a couple of other times in my life where I've been able to do that. And then walking out of that and just having such a level of freedom. It was so incredibly powerful.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. You don't know what you're under until you're not under it anymore.

• 25:10Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  The book, The Bondage Breaker was really key in my life and spiritual transformation. And I, I read it about 30 some years ago.

• 25:19Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  And walked with somebody through it and praying through it. And I came home, I looked different.

• 25:25Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  It, it really propelled me.

• 25:27Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. So yay for that.

• 25:28Josh Axe?

  It's so good. Yeah. I wish, I wish everybody could and everybody would experience that same level of just being able to let go and freedom. And it's, um, and, and to a point you made, you know, it's so valuable in doing it with someone else. I do think there's great value in pouring out your heart to God as we see David doing the scriptures. And we read in the Psalms and there's so much value there. But when I actually put this in connection oftentimes with healing, I'm thinking about like James, you know, and when, when he's like, go to the elders of the church, have them annoy your head, pray for them for healing. You know, there's times where it's, it's saying, commanding like lay your hands on person, confess your sins one into another. Typically when we confess our sins, I mean, today, when I'm thinking about most of the time, first off, people typically in Protestant circles don't, I don't think confess their sins very often.

• 26:13Josh Axe?

  It's not really talked about much anymore, I don't think in church.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  It's true. Very unpopular.

• 26:17Josh Axe?

  Yeah. But it's definitely, I think, more unpopular to confess it to each other.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:23Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  It, it's so right. That's so right. The, the secret place, meeting with God is going to be the foundation. What's your relationship?

• 26:32Josh Axe?

  Well, think about why it's like, you know, we just went through this whole time where it's like, if you did one thing wrong, you're canceled forever.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 26:39Josh Axe?

  In the public eye.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Are we out of that?

• 26:41Josh Axe?

  So no wonder, no wonder. Yeah. And I, I think maybe. But, but you know, but no wonder people feel the sense of like not wanting to share their mistakes. Because it's, you know, it's your, the, the judgment is so severe.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  It's risky and people are, they want to be known more than anything else, but they fear it like anything else too. Afraid that if I, if I show my true face, you're going to run for the hills.

• 27:04Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  But we are made to live in community.

• 27:07Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  We're made in the image of perfect relationship. So yes, nothing's going to wound you as bad as a relationship will. But nothing's going to move your heart towards goodness as relationship will.

• 27:20Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  So it's, it really is the whole thing. Don't forsake gathering together. Isolation kills. You're isolated, it'll take you out.

• 27:29Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Our personal relationship, our, our journaling, our prayer life, our worship of him is essential. But it's not enough.

• 27:37Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:39Josh Axe?

  Okay. So first step, being willing.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:42Josh Axe?

  So that's, that's, that's the first big step from there. And then, and then doing it with someone else. I mean, or having a process to where it is a trusted counselor, a pastor, a.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  A small group.

• 27:54Josh Axe?

  A small group. You know, some, somebody who's more mature ideally than you in the Lord and being able to confide in that person and, and work through, uh, healing with, with these people. You know, one other thing, I'd love to get your thoughts on this. I have seen in a lot of studies, psychological studies is one of the most beneficial ways of dealing with past trauma is writing about it.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh, yes.

• 28:17Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Writing the story.

• 28:20Josh Axe?

  Yes. Yeah.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Just the physical act of writing it down gives your heart, your mind, your body, the space to process it.

• 28:29Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  This happened. Putting words to it like that is really, really important. And then finding somebody trustworthy that you do trust to read it.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Read it and respond. Story groups are really powerful.

• 28:46Josh Axe?

  Oh, wow.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  But, but writing it down is a, is a way of owning it and honoring it. And yes, you do re-enter it a little bit. So it has to be a timing thing.

• 28:57Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  I never tell people to just like start right away or go on a witch hunt or just, it's really something that needs to be gentle and guided by the Holy Spirit, tender with yourself. But that's huge.

• 29:09Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  That's huge and powerful, writing it down.

• 29:12Josh Axe?

  So I want to help people continue to understand this process. So it starts with wanting to, it starts with connecting with another. And you know, potentially it's writing certain things down. What, what, what are some of the other steps or things people need to do to experience this, you know, ongoing, ongoing freedom?

• 29:28Speaker 01

  Ongoing healing.

• 29:29Josh Axe?

  Ongoing healing. Yeah.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Just, um,

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Believe you're worth it.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  You're actually worth this journey, not only for your own healing and restoration, which is the point of Christianity, but also it's going to affect your relationships. For me, what propelled me into seeking my own healing was the damage I was doing to my children. Because I, I didn't even know how much rage I had, because I didn't, I didn't look at my life. I didn't know my own story. I in fact, thought I had an ideal childhood. That was the story I was telling myself. And, and my husband risked coming to me and saying, "You're raging and it's hurting our children." Okay, that's the last thing I want.

• 30:19Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  So a motivator is the, the reality of you're causing pain, but another motivator is, "I have so much pain." And then just praying to the God of all hope, that hope could rise, hope could rise. And then it really is, it is saying, "I matter. I have an impact." And that can be a difficult thing to do, especially if you've been told throughout your life that you don't matter, that you don't have an impact. So this is where it takes a revelation of the love of God.

• 30:52Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  And to hear the invitation, He's knocking, He's knocking through our pain.

• 30:58Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  He's knocking through circumstances in our life that may feel too similar to something that happened in our past. It's not to hurt us or wound us. It's just because He's very serious about our healing.

• 31:10Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  So going to Him first and, and asking for it, asking Him to bring you the person or persons that will be safe, that will walk with you on the journey. Is it a time for Christian counseling? Pray for the revelation. Who is it? You know?

• 31:27Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  And then, and then try it out. Try it out. Meet with them. See if there's a connection, if you want to work with them or not. And if there isn't, you know, thank you very much. I'm going to keep on looking for somebody that I feel safe and comfortable with. And then do, doing it, just being honest with your own story. And letting it get reframed in the reality of, for me, you didn't have an ideal childhood. And I'm old enough now, I was in my mid 30s, to take a look at that and go, "Wow, wow. I, I didn't. I was doing self-protective things to keep myself from feeling pain." We all do that. You know that, especially as children. And sometimes that's a very wise thing to do.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  But as you're older, the strategies start to wound us and hurt us and pin us down. And to be willing to go, "What are mine? How can I let some of those go step by step?" It's, it's, it's really good and you do need community for this. You know, you have somebody that you can ask the question, "What's my impact on you?"

• 32:37Josh Axe?

  Yeah. And the other thing is you need to make time for it because

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 32:41Josh Axe?

  Yeah, I, I think

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:42Josh Axe?

  I, I think today, you know, I'm just, I'm looking at our lives, like my daughter. And by the way, I, so I have two daughters and only one of them is doing sports right now. And because our two-year-old, I mean, she did, so this morning I went to my two-year-old. She has something called Mommy and Me Gymnastics.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 32:57Josh Axe?

  And it's for my two-year-old, but daddy went this time and so, and it was absolute ball. So I got to do that this morning with her. But my, my, my six-year-old has swim three days a week and then gymnastics a day. We were like, "Man, we're, you know, that feels pretty busy." But there are families out there, I know, some that have four kids in sports and a lot of other things going on. And like every minute of every day is totally packed. And so I think that that's something else too, is you just got to be able to prioritize these things and make, make time for, for healing.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  You really do. And your priorities are reflected in your schedule. So to, to make that a priority, to make your, your life with God a priority, it's gonna, you're gonna see it.

• 33:38Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  And then your own healing and to understand that it is affecting you and it's affecting your relationships. So incremental, you know, maybe you've got 15 minutes in a day because of the season of your life. It matters. It'll work. Invite God in. He can do, he can do a lot with a little bit of time.

• 33:57Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:58Josh Axe?

  Yeah. You know, I am such a big fan though, of connecting with another person to start on all of this. Yeah. I would, I would give you example of, in physical fitness, there is so much value in somebody starting off with a trainer.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:11Josh Axe?

  Because if not, you waste so much time, you're way more injury prone, you're less effective. Versus sometimes even just going, even if it's just a few times to get you started.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:21Josh Axe?

  Typically, you know, that guy getting you started on the beginning of the path makes it so much more effective. And I do, I do think, when I think about biblical growth and sanctification, I, it really makes me, I mean, the Bible talks constantly about discipleship. It's like this ongoing, and for discipleship, it takes two people. I mean, it takes being connected to other people in order to, to do that. And I think a lot of our spiritual growth today is less connected to discipleship and more connected to watching or listening or reading something on your, on your own.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Uh huh. Do it with another person.

• 34:54Josh Axe?

  And there's less accountability that way too, if you're not dealing with another person.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do it with another person. And then you get to hear what their take is or what, what impacted them. And like, "Oh, why, I didn't even think of that. That's really cool." Or just the, what it builds in your own heart when you are with another person. And it expands the reality to know that actually every person is bearing a pain that I don't know and they probably don't know.

• 35:23Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  And it helps you to be merciful towards others. And if you're merciful towards others, you can turn that this way.

• 35:31Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Be merciful towards yourself.

• 35:33Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  I mean, the invitation is really to be kind to your heart. And the way you treat your heart is the way you will treat other people's, even if you don't think that. But if you think you don't measure up and you need to strive and you need to be perfect, then that's the message you're going to be giving other people, whether they know it or not. So that's part of the reason why to pursue it is to love.

• 35:56Josh Axe?

  I have a very exciting announcement. We just found out that Heal Yourself is officially a New York Times bestseller. And that's entirely because of you. I just want to say thank you for showing up. Thank you for sharing this work. And thank you for believing in the power of cellular health. If you haven't grabbed your copy yet, you can find it on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or your favorite book retailer. Also, if you've already ordered but haven't claimed your bonuses yet, make sure to go to healyourselves.com and enter your email and your order number and we'll send you hundreds of dollars in free content. Again, that's healyourselves.com. By the way, that free content includes a peptide guide, natural healing recipes,

• 36:37Josh Axe?

  a masterclass in loads of other free content. I'm so excited for you to read this content. I hope it's going to change your life.

• 36:46Josh Axe?

  I remember reading a study years ago that said that 80% of doctors' visits are stress-related.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:53Josh Axe?

  80%.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  And illnesses too, right?

• 36:55Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:56Josh Axe?

  That's very, very, very high stress. And of course, when, when we use the word stress, typically it's emotions that have sort of gotten out of control.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:04Josh Axe?

  A lot of times. And so it's anxiousness, it's fear, it's worry. It's, you know, all of, all of those things sort of adding up. You know, let me ask you, I, I know how those impact blood markers and they impact the body. Here's a different question for you though. How do those different things impact the soul?

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Oh, the same way, the same way. Because of our own, our own brokenness, our own, what we're living with. We bear it in our souls and you know how interconnected it is. So as the soul is doing, so the body is doing. And when we're living under stress, which I would translate even to condemnation, accusation of where you're not measuring up and what you need to do in order to measure up, you're not acceptable, you need to do this. We're all aware of the areas that we're failing in. And if we focus on those, then we can keep our distance from a loving God

• 38:08Speaker 01

  who is inviting us to see ourselves the way He sees us. Because He doesn't see us as failures. Yes, we fail, but we're not failures. Yes, we might be disappointed. He's not. And to begin to believe that shifts us from a position of striving into resting, resting. It, it takes a revelation. It really does. So I'd say ask for that. Because we love because He first loved us. It's like we said at the beginning. We're loving Him as a response. So.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Begin to receive his love, begin to risk believing it and see what that does to your soul.

• 38:50Josh Axe?

  Well, what does that process look like? Like, what does somebody need to be able to do to

• 38:57Josh Axe?

  receive it and have it change them?

• 38:59Speaker 01

  That's so good. I, I, I really do mean it. Pray for a revelation.

• 39:04Josh Axe?

  Yeah, yeah, pray for revelation.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And ask that the eyes of your heart would be opened, that you would see the ways that he is loving you today and has been loving you your whole life. I like to say that our God is the ageless romancer who's been romancing us to his heart since before we took our first breath. He's been sending us love notes that are particular to us, things that we love, that mean something to us. So I would say pray and ask for the eyes that you see them, that you recognize them. When a song comes on and it's the exact sentence that's you're needing to hear right now, or you open a magazine and there it is, or the podcast comes on

• 39:48Speaker 01

  and they say something that just penetrates your heart. And of course, when you open the scriptures and they're alive and jump out at you, these aren't accidents. These are love notes from a God who is pursuing us.

• 40:01Josh Axe?

  Yeah, I remember when we, I went through the bondage breaker.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:04Josh Axe?

  One of the biggest things was these identity statements.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Oh, huge.

• 40:07Josh Axe?

  And I remember I had this printout on like one sheet of paper and it was basically all identity statements in God's promises. And I just read them every day. And you know, at first, I don't think I changed that much, but honestly, after doing it for a year, I'm like, I was a like totally different person.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:23Josh Axe?

  Uh, a year later.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  That's a great practical tool. I did the same thing for two years.

• 40:28Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Morning and night. So I started my day, it's how I ended my day. And you need that. You have to marinate in the truth and let the possibility, this is actually real. And what am I going to stand on? My experiences, my feelings, my emotions, or what it says right here in the word of God? Because what it says is mind-blowingly good.

• 40:47Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  So yeah, choose to marinate in it. You, you have to, you have a role to play. You have to make a choice. But that's an incredibly life-giving practice.

• 40:56Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Turn your attention away from your failures or your pain and turn it on to a God and risk believing that he's actually good and he's for you and he wants to come and be really close to you, like, like this close to you and share life in union with you. Cause he does.

• 41:18Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  Just step towards it.

• 41:20Josh Axe?

  That's amazing. I mean, the, the thing, I, I think, I think that most people feel like God is kind of way off in a distance and he's really not.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:28Josh Axe?

  Uh, interacting and really not that, that proactive in our lives. You know, but it's so funny. When I look back and if I put on my kind of spiritual lens.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:40Josh Axe?

  It is shocking and amazing at how involved he is. Like I, I think back on, when I was in college, so I went to a Christian school, was really involved through high school, then had a couple of years of college where I just didn't really attend church. I just really wasn't, um, you know, living the life I should have been living. And there was this kid, I remember this was like sophomore through junior year and his name was, I still remember this kid's name was Jonah. And he would like come up to me and said, um, hey, if you died tomorrow. I mean, it's really bold, like, kind of like.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  Pretty in your face.

• 42:12Josh Axe?

  In your face, like, if you die tomorrow, are you going to heaven or hell? Like sort of things. And I'm like, Jonah, get out of here, man. You know, like, and, um, but like, looking back, I felt like it was like, oh, that was Jesus working through this person or this sort of mind of Christ, like pursuing me.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:31Josh Axe?

  And I constantly look back at like how God was always kind of like working things out for my good. But I also think you have to have a level of spiritual awareness. You have to have a level of awareness. And because there's such a big difference of believing everything is chance versus, no, God is interacting and doing things right now. I just need to be aware and looking out for it.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And there's a place of making it experiential because there's the knowing about God. There's the knowing the facts.

• 43:00Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  Or there's the knowing of. Knowing about him is really different than having an experience of them. One is interesting.

• 43:09Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  The other is an honor.

• 43:11Josh Axe?

  Well, the thing about the, I'm thinking about like, I know my wife.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's it.

• 43:16Josh Axe?

  And, and I know who, you know, uh, so some famous person is, right? But I like know my, and, and that's the difference. And I think a lot of people today are, are, you know, it was funny. I had a, uh, one of my best friends, he's got, uh, five daughters and he was telling me, you know, he asked his daughters, he said, oh, is that, you know, is that boy a Christian? And they're like, dad, that's not even a good question anymore. Cause people say they are, but that could mean like, I mean, it's such a broad spectrum of what that means. But again, I do think maybe one of the best, you know, barometers of that is looking at, does somebody have a deep intimate, true relationship like I do with my, like a family member or someone I know intimately

• 44:00Josh Axe?

  versus, you know, I know facts about some, some celebrity.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Right. See, that's such a good example. In, in Hebrew, the word is yada. It means to know by experience. And just like your wife, I know my husbands. A lot of people know them. They know what he wrote. They know what his passions are. I know the contours of his face.

• 44:19Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  I know the sound of his footsteps, the word he's going to choose. I know what makes him laugh and what makes him furious. And God wants that with us. He wants to be known by us. That kind of intimate knowing. I mean, the, the invitation from, from Genesis to Revelation is come close. Know me, have your breath taken away. And then this reciprocal relationship, he knows us intimately, that he longs for that is amazing. But then we are made in his image. So I guess we shouldn't be that surprised.

• 44:55Josh Axe?

  How, how do we go from knowing about God to truly experiencing God?

• 44:58Speaker 01

  Oh, it's really something that we grow in.

• 45:01Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  And it, and it is a practice, but it does begin with asking, asking, reading the ladder of love.

• 45:09Josh Axe?

  Yeah. You got a great, yeah, yeah. You got a great book out with this. Can I tell you, I think back to like, especially when I was first dating my wife, Chelsea, I think we got to know each other by, we just continued to ask each other questions.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:20Josh Axe?

  And they went like, where are you from?

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:23Josh Axe?

  To going deeper and deeper and deeper to like, what are the deepest desires of your, your soul?

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Oh, right. And what you mentioned earlier, time. Give it.

• 45:33Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  The time that it deserves.

• 45:36Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  And, and ask for it. Because that's kind of a wild thought. The God of the universe, the creator of the cosmos wants me to know his heart like I know my closest friend's hearts or my spouse or somebody that I'm really intimate with. Yes. And people can be afraid of the word intimacy, but it just means closeness. And that's his invitation. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you.

• 46:02Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Like, come on.

• 46:04Josh Axe?

  Yeah. I, I've always found for me and experiencing God, I think that there's a few things that have been incredibly helpful for me. I think one is getting into a quiet place. And also I think just, just reading the Bible and seeing what the word of God says, I think is incredibly valuable. I think from there though, for me to be able to sit quietly.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:22Josh Axe?

  Particularly after praising and worshiping God or reading God's word, and then just sort of listening there. And, you know, and it's this sort of conscious voice. It's not an audible voice for most people. It's a conscious voice of sort of like, you know, impressing thoughts upon me and, and, and that's, that's how I tend to, I feel like, hear from God in that way. And sometimes I'll write and say, what do I think God is saying to me right now?

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:46Josh Axe?

  And write those things down.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  And you listen. And something to look at too, is when you're praying to God, where are you praying? When you're talking to him, is he the God up there, like the sky God? Or is he right here? Jesus actually lives within us. So to get quiet, and then I, I call it like sinking in, sinking into your heart, like you're sinking into your most comfortable chair, asking Holy Spirit to help you become aware of him inside and spend time in the quiet. Maybe with just some pretty instrumental music going on and, and resting in the presence of God.

• 47:21Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  Things will happen there. You start receiving his love. You might begin hearing his voice as an impression.

• 47:29Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  But letting that, it takes time. It takes quiet. It may take taking some very deep breaths for a few minutes and just becoming aware of your, of your breath, aware of your body. What am I feeling? Name it and inviting God into it.

• 47:46Josh Axe?

  Yeah. That's so good. What's, what's the biggest thing people should take away from your new book, The, The Ladder of Love? And what's it about ultimately?

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Well, it's about ascending in intimacy with Jesus. It's about coming to know him in ways that perhaps we haven't. And then having our breath taken away by his beauty. And that's what changes us. That's what frees us. And it's an, it's an honorable and a holy pursuit to get to know him. It's, it's the journey of our life. It's the best thing we can do is to press in to know him more. But what I want them to come away with is not only knowing him, but knowing how loved they are, they are by this God that created everything and created them on purpose. This God who wants to be known, who can be known, of course, throughout all eternity and have that change them.

• 48:39Josh Axe?

  Yeah. So good. It's so good. Well, Stacy, thanks so much for coming on today. It was such a blessing. Uh, I'm excited for everybody to check out the book. The book is called The Ladder of Love. And it's all about experiencing more intimacy with God and also overcoming, you know, the, these traumas that we've experienced, the spiritual trauma, the emotional trauma, the mental trauma, and overcoming that with, uh, practical ways through, through really building a deeper, more intimate relationship with, with Jesus.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Exactly. Thank you so much for having me. What a joy to talk with you.

• 49:11Josh Axe?

  Well, and where can people find the book and, and learn more about you and the amazing things you're up to?

• 49:16Speaker 01

  That's good. The book is wherever you buy books.

• 49:18Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  It's everywhere. And the best place to find out more of, of me or our ministry is at wildathart.org. We have so many resources there of, of podcasts and things and learn about the pause app and how to interrupt your day with God and to settle in. There's, that's the best way. Go there. I'm on Facebook. I'm on Instagram, but I would start at the website.

• 49:43Josh Axe?

  Well, thanks so much, Stacy, for your great work, everything from captivating here to the ladder of love. Super grateful for you and your ministry. I just want to say, hey, thanks, everybody for tuning in here to the Dr. Axe Show. Remember every week we're diving deep into how to heal. And sometimes it's physical healing being a physical channel, like diet, but oftentimes it's dealing with these spiritual matters of the heart, dealing with past emotional hurts and trauma and taking those things on in order to experience physical healing and experience your best life possible. So thanks so much for tuning in. Do me a favor, subscribe. It's the number one thing you can do to support the channel. Also think about who is one person who really needs to hear this message and who needs

• 50:23Josh Axe?

  to experience greater emotional and spiritual breakthroughs and healing via a relationship with Jesus? Do me a favor, share this with that person. Thanks so much for being on mission with us. Can't wait to see you on the next episode.