Dad Slept With My Wife’s Mom (It Ruined Everything)

On today’s episode, we hear about: · A couple trying to move forward following a family affair · A woman wondering how to handle her friend’s bombshell · A mom seeking advice on how to proceed with a divorce Next Steps: 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John's Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors: 🌱 Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. 🔴 Get 15% off with code DELONY at BON CHARGE. 🌿 Get up to 40% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth. 🔒 Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. 😇 Go to Hallow for a 90-day free trial. 💤 Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! 🥤 Get 20% off with code DELONY at Organifi. 💪 Get 25% off your order at Thorne. 🏋️ Go to Trainwell to get started! Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 📈 The EntreLeadership Podcast Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  How can we choose joy over resentment after my father's affair with my wife's mother has complicated our relationships?

• 0:11Dr. John Delony?

  Wow. Was your dad married at the time?

• 0:16Speaker 00

  Both parents were, yeah.

• 0:18Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, even more. Wow. I don't get surprised very often, but this is a new one.

• 0:29Dr. John Delony?

  What up? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show, taking your calls on mental and emotional health. It's a new year, so habits, marriages, kids, everything. Whatever you've got going on in your life, I'll sit with you and we'll figure out what's the next right move. If you want to be on the show, give me a buzz at 1-844-693-3291, or go to johndeloney.com/ask. Let's jump right to the phones. We have a couple on to start today's show. Let's go out to Miami, Florida. Let's pick up James first. What's up, brother James?

• 1:05Speaker 00

  Hey, Dr. John. How you doing, man? How's everything?

• 1:09Dr. John Delony?

  I'm doing all right, man. Living the dream, running a scam called a podcast. All right, let's bring on, is this your wife, Lily?

• 1:16Speaker 00

  Yes, sir.

• 1:17Dr. John Delony?

  All right, let's bring on Lily. Lily, you there?

• 1:20Speaker 02

  Yes, I'm here. How you doing?

• 1:22Dr. John Delony?

  I'm doing great. All right, so, James, I picked you up first, so dudes first today. Go for it. What's up?

• 1:32Speaker 00

  So our question, I'll start with our question and then just kind of give you some backstory. So, our question is, how can we choose joy over resentment after my father's affair with my wife's mother has complicated our relationships?

• 1:43Dr. John Delony?

  Wow.

• 1:46Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:48Dr. John Delony?

  You said that. Did you ever watch the show Dexter?

• 1:52Speaker 00

  A couple of times, yeah.

• 1:54Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I think you're that guy. You just said that so chill. How do we choose joy over resentment after our parents blew our lives to smithereens?

• 2:04Speaker 00

  Yep, yep. It's, we're kind of that couple that, you know, we kind of have that nervous laughter going anytime something crazy happens, you know?

• 2:12Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, that's me. My wife has, it gets real quiet and I laugh, and so it's made for not super fun over the years. Okay, it's not about me.

• 2:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, man.

• 2:21Dr. John Delony?

  So, oh, I got so many questions. You, you just talk and I'll, I'll interrupt you. Go for it.

• 2:28Speaker 00

  Okay. So, uh, my wife and I have known each other for about seven years. Um, you know, we, we started out as kind of casual acquaintances. We, we met at the church that I grew up at. Um, so we met through church and then about four years ago, uh, we had a family member of mine pass away unexpectedly. And, you know, it was, it was kind of a big shock. And, and so my wife, at the time, of course, we were just friends, you know, she was at the funeral. And to me, that meant the world because it was, you know, she didn't actually know my family member. She just was there because she knew I was hurting, you know? So what that made me do is, you know, the wheel started kind of turning that, you know, hey, if she's there for me in my low moments and we're just friends,

• 3:10Speaker 00

  you know, how much more is she going to be there for me in the hard times if we're together? You know what I mean?

• 3:14Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, yeah. The funeral love connection, right?

• 3:16Speaker 00

  It happens all the time, right?

• 3:19Dr. John Delony?

  Not really, but in this case, yes.

• 3:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, so, you know, and, and that proved to be a little bit of an understatement, um, as the next couple of years unfolded. But, um, so basically, you know, as we fast forward a few months, uh, my dad was volunteering at that church, uh, that, that I grew up at. And her mom, uh, got a job there. So she, she, you know, became employed. And so, you know, the next few months went really well, you know, my wife and I had, you know, a really, really great relationship, you know, everything was, was, and we still have a really great relationship. But, you know, as, as time kind of went on, we started kind of noticing.

• 4:00Dr. John Delony?

  Well, wait, hold on. When did y'all get married?

• 4:03Speaker 00

  So we got married, uh, we got married about a year and a half ago.

• 4:08Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. All right. So you, like, four years ago, you're at a funeral, you're like, I know I'm sad, but man, she's really pretty. And she's like, man, I'm gonna go support him, but he's kind of hot. And then you all dated for a year and a half and then got married?

• 4:22Speaker 00

  So we, we dated for about a year and a half. We were dating for about a year and a half when all this kind of went down. Um.

• 4:29Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. So y'all were not married yet?

• 4:31Speaker 00

  We were not. We were not.

• 4:32Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. All right. So y'all are dating. It's pretty serious.

• 4:36Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:37Dr. John Delony?

  And then?

• 4:39Dr. John Delony?

  Your dad, is your dad married at the time?

• 4:42Speaker 00

  Both parents were, yeah.

• 4:43Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, even more. Wow. Okay.

• 4:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:48Dr. John Delony?

  So then your dad's volunteering at this church. He's married to your mom.

• 4:52Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:54Dr. John Delony?

  Lily, your mom rolls into town and gets a job at this church. I made it sound like your mom's like the bad guy here. She's not, but I mean, everybody's a bad guy here. But your mom's working at the church. She's, is she married to your dad?

• 5:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, even now they're still married.

• 5:11Dr. John Delony?

  Even more awesome. And so then what happens?

• 5:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we're, so about a year and a half into us dating, you know, they, they, their relationship, you know, they, meaning my dad, her mom, kind of got, you know, real close. And so we all kind of started noticing something was off. Uh, and so they at one point came to us and literally kind of told us point blank, you know, without even trying to conceal it, you know, hey, here's what's going on. And at first it was just what in the world, you know, like this is totally just, you know, it's kind of like a middle finger to us a little bit, you know, um.

• 5:50Dr. John Delony?

  This one's, this is the double bird. This is both hands. This is like, but they came to y'all and they didn't say, did they say, oh my gosh, we've like fallen for each other, we had a hookup? Or they came to you and were like, no, we're together?

• 6:04Speaker 00

  It was, it started out emotional, uh, and it was more kind of presented to us as, hey, here's the feelings that we have. You know, uh, and then, you know, that, that only lasted probably about two months or so. It eventually escalated into more than just the emotional. Uh, and then it came to a point where, you know, her mom was just overcome with, you know, guilt and, and, uh, regret for what, you know, they kind of put everyone through. And so her mom is the one that called it off and abruptly said, this is it, not happening anymore. Uh, and everything around.

• 6:38Dr. John Delony?

  So they're having like an out in the open affair?

• 6:41Speaker 00

  Right.

• 6:44Dr. John Delony?

  Does she keep her job at the church?

• 6:46Speaker 00

  No, they, they, uh, they both left. So they, they were both, uh, let go.

• 6:51Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 6:51Speaker 00

  Um.

• 6:53Dr. John Delony?

  And so then they were like, that's still cool. And then did your mom stick around?

• 6:58Speaker 00

  So they, they're, uh, not sticking around, no. So she, she left. This is all kinda within the last couple of months, but my mom is, my mom's on the outs.

• 7:07Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, so your, your mom and your dad are getting divorced. Lily, your mom and your dad are sticking it out.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Correct, yeah. They're going to therapy, working on each other, trying to figure this thing out.

• 7:17Dr. John Delony?

  And then somewhere in all of this, y'all two are like, you know what we could do to make this more awesome? Let's get married.

• 7:22Speaker 00

  Yep. Trust me, we, uh, we, we, like I said, we kinda laughed through the, the hard times. So we were kinda making jokes about how, you know, it was, uh, we were kinda like stepbrother and sister, you know?

• 7:35Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, dude.

• 7:38Speaker 00

  You got you, man. You gotta, you gotta laugh through it, I guess, you know?

• 7:41Dr. John Delony?

  Alright, so...

• 7:44Dr. John Delony?

  Again, I don't get surprised very often, but this is a new one, so congratulations on that. Um, so how can I help you right now?

• 7:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, so where we're at now is, you know, kinda, when everything was kinda going on, that's when our relationship, of course, started coming under the microscope and people were starting to say, you know, I had family members kinda saying, hey, you know, why are you bringing Lily around the house? It's disrespectful to mom. And, you know, I had, one of my longtime friends texted me when, you know, when they found out that we were getting married and choosing to start our lives together, you know, the text that I got was that, you know, James, you're being selfish and, um, you know, you need to take some time to really think about what you're doing. And, you know, I, I'm totally cool with it, man, cause I, I, I will defend my wife to the end of the earth, you know? I, I will defend our relationship to the end of the earth.

• 8:35Speaker 00

  So I learned that kinda the hard way, that, hey, I've never been more sure, we've never been more sure about anything in our lives, than us starting our lives together and, and getting married. So kinda where that brings us to today, and where we, you know, would like some assistance is, we're kind of in that- At you know, mid twenties age range where you know, a lot of our friends are getting married. A lot of our, uh, you know, my sibling just got married a couple of months ago and you know, seeing how the families kind of interact with each other and you know, the, the mother, son dance and all of that, you know, we can't kind of help but feel a little bit resentful, you know, toward we kind of, you know, weren't able to have that and haven't had that yet,

• 9:18Speaker 00

  I should say. So just trying to figure out like, what are the actionable items that we can take to, you know, maybe conversations that we need to have or that sort of thing to try to, you know, build what we can, you know?

• 9:30Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Well,

• 9:33Dr. John Delony?

  this isn't a part of my final answer, but here's just an aside. If a friend texts you

• 9:42Dr. John Delony?

  a long, serious text message about their thoughts of your character, they are not your friend.

• 9:49Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. So you immediately opt out of me caring what you have to say. If you don't show up at my front door, you don't call me. Okay. On the way to work this morning, I sent a text message to an old, old friend that said, call me.

• 10:07Dr. John Delony?

  And they called and we talked as I drove into work today. It wasn't a long text message. Okay. So that's number one. If they truly were invested and think you're doing something wrong, that's a conversation you have in person together. So as people begin to lob text message grenades, I really don't care.

• 10:25Speaker 00

  Right.

• 10:25Dr. John Delony?

  You're, you're just showing, oh, you're, you're, you're out, right? So your voice doesn't matter. If somebody wants to come over to my house or a close friend calls me because they live in another state or whatever, and they was like, hey, we gotta talk, dude. I'll hear that all day long and take that wisdom. And so that's number one. Number two,

• 10:41Dr. John Delony?

  y'all decided to get married in the middle of a hurricane.

• 10:45Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 10:46Dr. John Delony?

  So by doing that, there's no judgment, no right or wrong, but y'all, that meant y'all made choices to not participate in other parts of this fantasy picture that young married couples have. Like the mother, son dance or whatever.

• 11:04Dr. John Delony?

  So some of that is just being both bummed out and knowing, yeah, we chose that. It just is what it is. The third part is, have you sat down, like, does your mom accept Lily?

• 11:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, so that's part of it. So she, their relationship has really grown, let's say, over the last year and a half since all this went down.

• 11:25Dr. John Delony?

  Amazing.

• 11:27Speaker 00

  Uh, which, uh, you know, thank God for, for sure, you know, um, and a lot of, like, kind of when all was going down, there were times where, you know, I, I would say things to my family, like, hey, you know, Lily doesn't feel like you guys, like her, she doesn't feel accepted by you guys. And kind of the answer that I got back was, well, I see why she'd feel that way. You know what I mean? And it was kind of, well, you know, I would think it'd be more of a, no, why would she think that? You know, that sort of thing. But they have grown a lot, like, let's say, over the last few months.

• 11:59Dr. John Delony?

  Well, I'll give them credit. They were like, no, no, no, we're actively excluding her. Of course she feels that way, right? So at least they didn't try to gaslight you and make you feel crazy. Lily, is it weird being around his mom?

• 12:10Speaker 02

  Uh, definitely, yeah. I'd say so. With his mom and his siblings, yeah.

• 12:15Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Um, how have you felt through all of this, Lily?

• 12:20Speaker 02

  It's been a roller coaster of emotions, to say the least. It's definitely been chaotic and it's kind of, you're seeing this train wreck, but you can't really control any part of it. So you're just kind of sitting there, be like, well, okay, I guess that's happening now. That's a choice.

• 12:35Dr. John Delony?

  But, uh, let me push on that because you, you can't control the train wreck, but you can control whether you stare at it, whether you're an earshot of it, whether you run into the aftermath of it all.

• 12:47Dr. John Delony?

  You know what I'm saying? Like, you're, y'all, you're, James, your dad, Lily, your mom made a choice and the choice was to blow up their families.

• 12:57Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:57Dr. John Delony?

  And that explosion came with smoke and ash and downed structures everywhere. Like, that happened.

• 13:06Dr. John Delony?

  But if y'all go back to those same blown up structures, wanting what was there before, which was full family support and mother-son dances and dinners are on a fire, like, that's on y'all. Cause y'all going back to a thing that you know doesn't exist anymore.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 13:23Dr. John Delony?

  And so you get to be sad that those things don't exist, especially since your dad and your mom blew them up.

• 13:29Dr. John Delony?

  But then y'all also made the decision to get married. And so y'all have to make that grown up decision, which is, James, you tell your family, like, she's a part of our life and she's not her mom. And she's not dad. And so I'm gonna ask y'all to treat my wife with respect and also your family. Sounds like they're the kind of person who's of the character that says, um, yeah, but we're gonna need a minute. And I think there's some, there's some both and there. Lily, how is James around your dad or your mom?

• 13:59Speaker 02

  I think that relationship is really good. I think mainly because my mom was very repentant immediately afterward.

• 14:05Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  I think that's kind of going back to where James dad is more so doesn't see where he went wrong. He doesn't see what, where the sin was. And it's his only regret is that he could have done it better.

• 14:24Dr. John Delony?

  What?

• 14:25Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  So that's the hard part where we deal with resentment because it's how can we move on from something that you don't see is wrong in the first place?

• 14:36Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, but guys, I would not, he has cashed out his vote in my life. If I'm y'all.

• 14:43Dr. John Delony?

  He's cashed out. Not only did he blow up your lives, but he continues to make y'all feel like the crazy ones.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  Hmm. That's, that's a great way of putting it for sure.

• 14:55Dr. John Delony?

  So like by virtue of his behavior, like he's out. You don't get a vote, dude.

• 15:02Dr. John Delony?

  And so I'm not even gonna give him, like basically, I'm not gonna wake up every day and there's a cinder block by my bed that just says dad's

• 15:13Dr. John Delony?

  idiotic decisions and his refusal to take accountability for his actions. I'm not gonna pick that brick up and carry it around all day. Forget that. I'm gonna carry that.

• 15:27Dr. John Delony?

  And I get to be sad.

• 15:32Dr. John Delony?

  I get to be sad that he blew everything up and then I've got to live in the aftermath of it all.

• 15:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's really good.

• 15:39Dr. John Delony?

  And I can feel compassionate for my mom that every time my mom sees my wife, she sees the resemblance of the face of the other woman, right?

• 15:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:49Dr. John Delony?

  I mean, all that's true. And I would still think it's right to ask your family members to act like adults and treat Lily with dignity and respect. And to treat her as a separate entity than her mom.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 16:03Dr. John Delony?

  And I don't know how, I mean, maybe y'all can navigate this. I think it's worth a conversation at some point that, hey, there will come a day in our life where we have a new kid or whatever. You're gonna see this woman again, mom.

• 16:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, that's part of the irony too, Dr. John is, you know, when it was all kind of happening, you know, my mom kind of shared with me that, you know, she kind of went to therapy and, you know, the person that she was talking with kind of told her, hey, well, the good news is, you know, you're not gonna ever have to see her again. And I was kind of like, "Listen, doctor, you're the doctor here, you're, I'm not a psychology expert whatsoever, but I'm telling you right now, that was probably not the best advice."

• 16:43Dr. John Delony?

  Well, you were like, "Ah, hold my beer, mom, uh, I can make this weird for us all, or I'm gonna marry her." No, I mean, here's the deal. Your mom doesn't want the world she's living in either.

• 16:55Dr. John Delony?

  And yet, here she is. Your brothers and sisters don't want that world because they all had visions of bringing their grandkids around the fire at Thanksgiving, and now that's over. And there's nothing worse than finding out your dad was dishonest, or he's a gaslighter, or he's just a person that lacks integrity. And you start to look throughout your life and you see remnants of that. You see images and shadows of that throughout your entire childhood, and it makes you doubt everything.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's really true because I, one of the things I was gonna mention is, you know, growing up, my dad was kind of my coach, you know, he would always coach me in basketball or whatever it was. And, you know, he would always tell me growing up, you know, "Hey, don't ever quit, you know, don't ever give up." And I actually confronted him on that when this was all going down. I said, "Hey, growing up, you kind of told me, hey, I'm not ever to quit." I guess that only applied to me, you know what I mean? And those are the hard things, to your point, that I've had to deal with of kind of going back and kind of replaying things over and over, you know what I mean?

• 17:53Dr. John Delony?

  Let me ask you this, you confronted him with that, did that feel good when you said that?

• 17:57Speaker 00

  Not really.

• 17:58Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, I want that to be lesson A, B, and C.

• 18:05Dr. John Delony?

  The imaginary conversations you have in your head with him, they're only seeking to make you crazy.

• 18:14Dr. John Delony?

  And if you actually have those big reveal conversations, those big yeah moments in real life, you'll see a sad old man.

• 18:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:24Dr. John Delony?

  And you'll realize, oh dude, I just got down in the mud and threw mud at him and now I'm completely covered in mud and crap myself.

• 18:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:33Dr. John Delony?

  And so I,

• 18:37Dr. John Delony?

  the best I can tell you is to, y'all both write a letter to each one of your parents and don't ever, ever send it, maybe read it to each other.

• 18:46Dr. John Delony?

  But really what we're doing is we're having a miniature funeral to what we wanted things to be.

• 18:53Dr. John Delony?

  We're gonna have a ceremony that we can point to the ground, this is the day,

• 18:58Dr. John Delony?

  I officially called it, my dad's lost his influence on my life. He cashed out.

• 19:04Dr. John Delony?

  And then you, brother James, have to go be intentional about,

• 19:10Dr. John Delony?

  you've got to go be intentional about finding other men in your life that you can trust.

• 19:16Dr. John Delony?

  And Lily, you opted into this marriage and so you're gonna have to opt into knowing you're gonna tense up every time you go over to the house for a season. My hope is, is that, James, your mom continues to be super mature and grown up and compassionate and your brothers and sisters come around and also it's gonna be awkward for a while and both of those things are true. And vice versa, James, when you go over and you shake her dad's hand and he looks at you and is like, your dad's the one that almost blew my life, like, there's just gonna be some inherent awkwardness and some discomfort.

• 19:50Dr. John Delony?

  And so I think the joy is doing the next right thing and I think the resentment is, dude, I'm not even gonna...

• 19:57Dr. John Delony?

  This is gonna sound, this is gonna sound kinda arrogant. I'm not gonna give my dad the... I don't want you to give your dad even the dignity of allowing you to feel resentful. You get no votes. I'm just gonna be pissed off that you blew it up and then I'm gonna go to the next right thing. And the next right thing in this situation is creating those moments on your own. I want y'all to create what you want Thanksgiving to look like and then y'all make it happen.

• 20:22Dr. John Delony?

  And if you invite your brothers and sisters and your mom to your Thanksgiving and only two of them show up, that they're still going through struggles, that's fine, that's not on you guys. And we're gonna be sad, huh, and then we're gonna go have a good time at Thanksgiving the best we can. Then we're gonna go to the next one, we're gonna go to the next one. But what we're not gonna do is we're not gonna sit around and be victims in this deal. And we're not gonna sit around and be constantly revictimised by a dad who blew up, co-blew up two families and continues to nuke his own family because he won't own up to his lack of integrity. And I'll tell you guys,

• 20:59Dr. John Delony?

  I hate this for your new marriage. It's gonna be really important that y'all are highly intentional with each other, James and Lily, that y'all don't keep secrets from each other and y'all continue to go back to your marriage over and over and over again and be vigilant about who you allow to speak into it. Vigilant about the voices you allow in your own marriage. Cause y'all are building something completely new. Completely new. And my hope, James, is your old man comes around.

• 21:28Dr. John Delony?

  Cause he's lost everything and I don't think he realizes that he's losing everything now. All of it.

• 21:35Dr. John Delony?

  In the process, you two hang on to your dignity and your character and your respect. And go make an amazing marriage. Thanks for the call, we'll be right back.

• 21:46Dr. John Delony?

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• 22:56Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, good folks, Lent is just around the corner. And if you haven't heard of Lent, it's a practice that goes back centuries. It's when Christians all over the world get ready for Good Friday and Easter through different kinds of prayer, meditation, and fasting. It's about getting rid of the things or habits in your life that get in your way of knowing God and of living a full, joyful life. So whether you grew up in the Christian tradition and you want to experience Lent in a new way, or you think the whole thing sounds bonkers and you just want to learn more, check out Hallow's Lent Pray Forty Challenge. The Lent Pray Forty Challenge walks you through great stories and guided prayers. Last year, more than a million people around the world prayed with Hallow every day during Lent,

• 23:40Dr. John Delony?

  and this year will be even bigger and better. Right now, you can get three months of Hallow, the number one prayer app in the world, for free when you sign up at hallow.com/deloney. This means your trial will last all the way through Lent. And when you join, you can check out over 10,000 of their guided prayers and meditations, music, and so forth. So download the app and sign up at hallow.com/deloney to get notified when the Lent Pray Forty Challenge begins. That's hallow.com/deloney for three months of Hallow absolutely free.

• 24:15Dr. John Delony?

  All right, let's go to Manitoba, Canada and talk to Planet Janet. Hey Janet, what's up?

• 24:22Speaker 03

  Hey John, how are you?

• 24:23Dr. John Delony?

  I'm fantastic. How are you?

• 24:25Speaker 03

  Good, thank you.

• 24:26Dr. John Delony?

  What's up?

• 24:27Speaker 03

  So my friend, so I'll tell you a little bit of backstory. Um, so I'm married with kids and my friend is also married with kids. She told me through texts that she had something she wanted to tell me, but was afraid that it was going to ruin our friendship. She ended up sharing that she has feelings for me. There's nothing on my end, um, but I'm wondering if I should end our friendship.

• 24:48Dr. John Delony?

  Hmm. Have you all had an in-person conversation yet?

• 24:53Speaker 03

  We did. After that initial text, um, we just drove to a parking lot and we sat there and talked.

• 24:59Dr. John Delony?

  Tell me how that conversation went.

• 25:03Speaker 03

  Um, for me, it was incredibly awkward and a little bit uncomfortable. Um, she just shared that she's never felt this way about a woman before. Um, she is not sure why she feels attracted to me. I know she went through a really hard time. She went through a miscarriage and I was there for her emotionally and wanted to support her. And so I'm not sure if she's commute, if she's confusing, um, vulnerability with intimacy. Like, I'm not sure why she would get her wires crossed and think that there's something there.

• 25:35Dr. John Delony?

  Well, I would get out of her head. There may be, there is something there. You know what I mean? Uh, you trying to solve it on this end. I wouldn't spend the energy on that one.

• 25:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:43Dr. John Delony?

  I guess I appreciate her honesty, right? Cause it gives you some pretty clear direction, what to do. So tell me about, um,

• 25:56Dr. John Delony?

  tell me about your confusion about next steps.

• 26:00Speaker 03

  Well, I guess I just in my head, I'm like, will it be awkward now? Because like she said, she was worried telling me that would wreck our friendship. And so in my head, I'm like, I don't know that we can remain friends or like that it can go back to normal because now it's like, I know this thing. Um, even though there is no issue on my end, uh,

• 26:18Dr. John Delony?

  There's no going back. Yeah. So her saying that is a little bit disingenuous. I want to tell you this thing that's going to change everything, but I don't want it to change anything.

• 26:29Dr. John Delony?

  Right.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  Right, and then I feel like a jerk if it's like, oh, this fear that you just shared with me that this would end our friendship, now I'm gonna do that thing.

• 26:36Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, but she ended the friendship.

• 26:39Dr. John Delony?

  Cause she proposed the friendship become romantic.

• 26:43Dr. John Delony?

  If you, if you had said, oh my gosh, I'm into this too. Was she offering to start an affair, or was she just putting stuff dated out on the table?

• 26:53Speaker 03

  Right, and that's what I don't know, is like, what was her expectation in telling me that? Like, I would assume you tell somebody that because you would hope they would reciprocate.

• 27:02Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, and you heard the old saying about assuming, right?

• 27:05Speaker 03

  Right.

• 27:07Dr. John Delony?

  So, I... What do you want to do?

• 27:16Speaker 03

  I mean, I feel like the right thing would be to... And I guess I just struggle a lot with being a people pleaser and not wanting to hurt people.

• 27:26Dr. John Delony?

  So, let's, let's, let's make this a little bit easier, okay?

• 27:32Dr. John Delony?

  Um, this is a really close guy colleague that you work with.

• 27:37Dr. John Delony?

  And y'all do some, um, you've been through some tough projects together, y'all made it through layoffs together. You spend eight hours or 10 hours a day with this dude, y'all laugh together, you tell jokes, he knows about your kids, your husband, and vice versa, you know about his wife and his kids. And then he shoots you that text.

• 27:55Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:56Dr. John Delony?

  What's your next move?

• 27:59Speaker 03

  Obviously to say, like, I don't feel that way, this is inappropriate, you know, I'm married, um, this can't continue, and just to cut off communication.

• 28:06Dr. John Delony?

  And there we go.

• 28:07Speaker 03

  Um...

• 28:07Dr. John Delony?

  And there we go.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:11Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 28:14Dr. John Delony?

  Y'all have different levels of intimacy because you're both women, y'all both been through things together, and you've been with your friend through a really hard season.

• 28:23Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:24Dr. John Delony?

  But the same result is the same. If you cheat on your husband, you blow your marriage up. If you have a friend that you were vulnerable and super intimate with, and then they say, hey, I've now crossed the line in my own spirit where this is romantic for me.

• 28:40Dr. John Delony?

  Then in many ways, I think it's cruel for you to continue the relationship.

• 28:46Speaker 03

  Right, it's not fair to her.

• 28:48Dr. John Delony?

  Well, again, I want to stay out of her head because I don't know what she's feeling, what she's experiencing. I'm gonna take her at her word. She has fallen in love with you. And that might be so far from your planet that that doesn't make sense cognitively or logically, whatever. That's okay. She's just saying, this is true for me. I love you. I am romantically interested in you.

• 29:12Dr. John Delony?

  But for you, there's the attraction part that you don't have, fine. But I think it's deeper as you immediately rattle off if this happened to be a male coworker, who is also a close friend. It's inappropriate. I'm uncomfortable. I got a family. This just ended our back and forth.

• 29:31Speaker 03

  Right. I feel like it's also a little bit complicated because her husband is friends with my husband. We all know each other from church. So it's not just I'm ending the friendship with her. It's like, it's all over.

• 29:44Speaker 03

  And so like I told my husband what happened right away. I was like, hey, I got this text. This is really odd. Like I was taken aback by it and he, you know, I told him we were gonna go meet up and talk. But she has not told her husband. And I don't know if that's my place.

• 29:58Dr. John Delony?

  I don't think so.

• 29:59Speaker 03

  What if...

• 30:00Dr. John Delony?

  I don't think so.

• 30:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, because I'm like, you know, what if she has a change of heart or she's like, I'm such an idiot. Like, I don't want to be responsible for blowing up their marriage.

• 30:07Dr. John Delony?

  Again, she would be responsible for it.

• 30:13Dr. John Delony?

  She's responsible for it. My next question was gonna be, what'd your husband say? And I was afraid you were gonna say, I haven't told him yet. And so the fact that you did...

• 30:22Speaker 03

  No, I did.

• 30:23Dr. John Delony?

  That's awesome. What did he say after you all met?

• 30:28Speaker 03

  After I told him that we had gotten together, my friend and I?

• 30:32Speaker 03

  I just told him what our conversation was and, and yeah, I, he didn't say like, oh, you messed into your friendship with her. He was just supportive and was like, it's good you guys talked and...

• 30:44Dr. John Delony?

  So, male or female, like, gay, straight, I always am faced with two things here. One, and this might sound strange to a casual listener, I'm compassionate for somebody that has the courage to say, here's what's actually going on in my soul.

• 31:03Dr. John Delony?

  That doesn't mean I have to think it's right. I don't have to like it, whatever. It can, it can mean a lot of changes in our lives, but I have compassion for somebody who just says, "I gotta say this."

• 31:13Dr. John Delony?

  And then,

• 31:18Dr. John Delony?

  you can't be response, you can't walk around holding, "Oh, my gosh, I ruined this stuff." Like, no, not really.

• 31:25Dr. John Delony?

  "I did thi-" No, not really. All you did was respond to the data that's in front of you, which is, it's in, like, I don't have the same feelings for you. And it's cruel if I continue to march around and we do friend stuff and we talk all the time, we text all the time, we tell each other intimate things about our lives, we sit with each other through hurt and pain and whatever, and I know

• 31:48Dr. John Delony?

  that you've got deep feelings for me.

• 31:51Dr. John Delony?

  I know you want to be living a completely different life than the one you're living. One where you're married to that guy, where you got those kids and that house.

• 32:01Dr. John Delony?

  And by the way, who knows if that's even true, right?

• 32:05Speaker 03

  Right.

• 32:05Dr. John Delony?

  I don't know if she wants to be living a different life. And maybe you get further clarification, like, "Hey, what were you expecting when you told me that?

• 32:14Dr. John Delony?

  I don't know what level of friendship you are."

• 32:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, we've been friends for a few years and of course, you know, as girlfriends do, we talk about marriage and life and kids and all the things, and so we're pretty close.

• 32:27Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 32:29Dr. John Delony?

  Is it something that you can just let breathe for a while?

• 32:34Speaker 03

  I can, like, I like to take my time and think about things and not rush to be, to make actions or not be quick to speak. I like to take my time before I do or say something that I might regret. But for her, I think she's kind of pressuring me through texts, like, you know, "Hey, what's happening? Um, you know, wh- where are we? Where do we stand?" And

• 32:57Speaker 03

  so I guess I feel pressure from her to make a decision.

• 32:59Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, she doesn't get a vote on that.

• 33:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:04Dr. John Delony?

  I think it's fair to say, "Hey, you changed the dynamic of our friendship and I'm really grateful that you told me what was going on in your heart and your mind.

• 33:15Dr. John Delony?

  But now I'm uncomfortable with how to move forward and so I just need some time."

• 33:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's fair.

• 33:24Dr. John Delony?

  And I think you tell your friend I love you and I want you best for your house and your marriage. I think your husband needs to know that you're going through some like your, your partner, the person you, you pledged your fidelity to needs to know that your, his wife is struggling.

• 33:36Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 33:37Dr. John Delony?

  And not that she's struggling with same sex attraction, nothing like that, but she is struggling with, I think I've fallen in love with somebody else.

• 33:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're thinking about having that conversation or just telling her what direction I'd want her friendship to go. Just makes me like shake inside and makes me wanna crumple in a heap on the floor.

• 33:57Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 33:57Speaker 03

  I hate confrontation and.

• 33:59Dr. John Delony?

  I know, but confrontation came to you. It came to you.

• 34:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:07Dr. John Delony?

  And so somewhere along the way, you, you got the message that how you feel does, doesn't matter as much as how other people feel. And in this situation, somebody came and said, hey, um,

• 34:19Dr. John Delony?

  I have romantic feelings for you. Do you have them for me?

• 34:25Dr. John Delony?

  And if you don't, you have to have the courage to say, no, I did not.

• 34:30Dr. John Delony?

  And I need some space on what to do with our friendship. And maybe you'll go back and have coffee a little while later and you can sit down and ask like, hey, what were you trying to, what were you trying to, what, what did you want me to say?

• 34:43Dr. John Delony?

  Right? Like, what would you want me to say? You know that I love my husband. You know that I love my kids. You know that I love my life and my howl. Like what?

• 34:50Dr. John Delony?

  I don't know what you were hoping for here.

• 34:53Dr. John Delony?

  And maybe you can dig in. Um, but I guess at the, the meta here is you're allowed to be uncomfortable.

• 35:02Dr. John Delony?

  And you're allowed to be frustrated that you had a great friend and now that's different. And you're also allowed to be compassionate towards your friend who's clearly going through some stuff. And you're allowed to.

• 35:17Dr. John Delony?

  Be confused on what to do next and just need time. You're allowed to not be pressured by somebody who just said, "Hey, I have feelings for you. I think I love you. What about you? What about you? What about you?" Like, "Hey, slow your roll. I don't feel the same way."

• 35:33Dr. John Delony?

  "And you've changed our friendship, and so I need some time." "All those things are... You're allowed. Take your time." "Thanks for the call, Janet." "When you feel like you want to get in a heap, don't." "This is a good moment in your life to practice standing up on your own two feet." "Say, 'Here's what I feel. Here's what I need right now.'"

• 35:54Dr. John Delony?

  "And if she's really a close friend, she'll say, 'I get it. I know I need some space. I know I just changed the dynamic of our friendship. I'll give you some space.'"

• 36:03Dr. John Delony?

  "Thanks for the call. We'll be right back."

• 36:06Dr. John Delony?

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• 36:49Dr. John Delony?

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• 37:30Dr. John Delony?

  So go to joindeleteme.com/deloney today to get 20% off. That's J-O-I-N, joindeleteme.com/deloney.

• 37:41Dr. John Delony?

  All right, let's go out to the home of Pearl Jam, Seattle, Washington, and talk to Dawn. Hey Dawn.

• 37:49Speaker 04

  Hi Dawn.

• 37:49Dr. John Delony?

  What's up?

• 37:52Speaker 04

  Well, I'm really grateful to be able to talk to you today. My question, I'll get right into it, is how can I leave my marriage without risking my newly sober daughter's recovery?

• 38:07Dr. John Delony?

  I don't know that you can.

• 38:10Dr. John Delony?

  I don't even know what the situation is, but I know that you can.

• 38:14Speaker 04

  I realize that's worded kind of strangely. I guess the question really is, should I? I mean, I guess at this point, I'm feeling like I really better not. But I can give you a little background if that helps.

• 38:27Dr. John Delony?

  Well, before we get to the background, I don't want to complicate it because this feels pretty straightforward.

• 38:34Dr. John Delony?

  Why do you need to leave your marriage?

• 38:37Speaker 04

  Uh, well, the, I want to emphasize that that really has nothing to do with the whole last 10 years that, you know, our family and our daughter have been through. In parallel, our marriage has had problems. I've been married for 30 years and...

• 38:58Dr. John Delony?

  Just tell me, why do you want to leave your marriage? Why do you need to leave your marriage?

• 39:02Speaker 04

  I want to leave my marriage because I have things that I can't seem to get through or get over. And we're not talking adultery or abuse, just a lot of other things. And I feel like my husband is just extremely apathetic about the things that I think we would need to do to have a better marriage.

• 39:26Dr. John Delony?

  Does he know those things?

• 39:28Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 39:29Dr. John Delony?

  He's just looking at you and saying, "Yeah, I'm not doing that."

• 39:33Speaker 04

  He's looking at me and saying, "I don't think anything will help."

• 39:38Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 39:39Speaker 04

  He said, "I don't think you will ever get over the things you're upset about." And I don't see that there's anything I can do. But he doesn't take any steps to end the marriage. He doesn't take any steps to do the things that... Basically, what I've been asking for is some intensive marriage counseling. And he just continually kind of fails to act.

• 40:05Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. So, you're gonna leave your marriage. Um, how old is your daughter?

• 40:13Speaker 04

  She's 28.

• 40:14Dr. John Delony?

  Does she live with you?

• 40:17Speaker 04

  No, she does not.

• 40:18Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 40:19Speaker 04

  Um.

• 40:19Dr. John Delony?

  How long has she been sober?

• 40:22Speaker 04

  Only about four months.

• 40:24Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 40:28Speaker 04

  She's, she's been through her entire adult life. I mean, in some ways, she's almost a 16-year-old, even though she's 28, because she hasn't had any functioning adult life. She's, um, been through just unspeakably horrific things for the last 10 years of her life and, um, so I, you know, she is the, the child of our, we have four children. She's the one who, really deep down, family has always meant the most to our, our, our marriage and if she detects that things aren't well, that's, I think, been more upsetting to her than the other kids.

• 41:12Speaker 04

  Um, and that's why I kind of feel like I don't know that I can do anything at this, I mean, I, I just can't see risking her recovery. I mean, that means more to me than, than anything else, but I don't know if that's the right decision.

• 41:37Dr. John Delony?

  Man, I would need a lot more context here.

• 41:41Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 41:41Dr. John Delony?

  Just, just on the outset.

• 41:46Dr. John Delony?

  The fact that you're not gonna make an adult decision

• 41:52Dr. John Delony?

  because of what your 28-year-old daughter, who doesn't live with you, may or may not do,

• 41:59Dr. John Delony?

  tells me the enmeshment between y'all two and whatever other messiness that's happened over the last 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, runs real deep.

• 42:09Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 42:11Dr. John Delony?

  Because here's the deal. If your daughter is only sober at 28 years old because everyone around her is playing this sophisticated game of charades,

• 42:26Dr. John Delony?

  her sobriety is gonna fail in a dramatic fashion.

• 42:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:34Dr. John Delony?

  If she's four months sober because she is tired

• 42:40Dr. John Delony?

  of the unspeakable things of her, she's just ready to be, have a different life.

• 42:47Dr. John Delony?

  If you're around newly sober people who are on the path, you can't shake them off.

• 42:53Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 42:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, that makes, that makes sense.

• 43:00Dr. John Delony?

  I, it sounds like there's so much more going on here. When you say unspeakable things over the last 10 years, what are you talking about? Since she was 18 years old till now?

• 43:12Speaker 04

  The things that, um, you know, the things that women generally end up needing to do to, um, maintain their using, uh, she's,

• 43:26Speaker 04

  I mean, she's been raped. She has had to prostitute herself. She's been chained up to a safe full of drugs in a garage. She's, you know, I mean, there's been horrible, horrible things. And when I think about what she's been through, I just don't want to do anything to shake how she's doing right now.

• 43:48Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 43:48Speaker 04

  Um, the complicated thing, she, uh, is also pregnant right now. So she's got, you know, a lot of hard things coming up. Uh,

• 44:01Speaker 04

  I, I understand I need to separate, you know, my life from hers. And I, I, I actually do feel that I've done that very well over the last several years, but I also do feel a responsibility, I guess, in a way for, um, for what she's been through, um.

• 44:20Dr. John Delony?

  So that, that responsibility to a 28 year old will come through direct, honest conversation, compassion and presence, not through dishonesty and lying?

• 44:32Speaker 04

  Right. I mean, I don't feel like I'm being dishonest. I just feel like I'm failing. I'm just in limbo failing to act because I don't want to.

• 44:42Dr. John Delony?

  I don't think you're super certain about this divorce.

• 44:46Dr. John Delony?

  Like you're so frustrated and annoyed at the end of your rope. But you're looking for some external things to keep this thing hanging on because you're about to pull the ripcord on something.

• 44:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:00Dr. John Delony?

  And my challenge to you would be, don't put that on your daughter.

• 45:06Speaker 04

  Right.

• 45:10Dr. John Delony?

  What do you hope is different? What would intensive marriage counseling get you and your husband?

• 45:16Speaker 04

  I guess, I have a hard time letting go of things that I'm resentful for, and I haven't been able to do that on my own. And I haven't been able to do it because my husband, when we talk, he, I don't really get,

• 45:38Speaker 04

  I don't really get an apology for things that have happened. I get defending of things that have happened and then that kind of just perpetuates the resentment. And so,

• 45:48Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, but that's, that's, that's an imitation. That's, that's, that is a choice you're making.

• 45:57Speaker 04

  Well, I know that in my head, but it's still there. I mean, I, I, I would love to let everything go.

• 46:04Dr. John Delony?

  It's not about letting everything go. It's about metabolizing it.

• 46:09Dr. John Delony?

  Like it's in your system, right? And you think if he comes and says, I'm so sorry, you're right. I screwed this up, that somehow your feelings will suddenly dissipate, that suddenly your body will be able to digest it.

• 46:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:28Dr. John Delony?

  That's not how that works.

• 46:31Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 46:34Dr. John Delony?

  You have to decide, I'm not hanging on to this anymore.

• 46:40Dr. John Delony?

  I'm, I'm gonna do the work that I need to do.

• 46:44Dr. John Delony?

  Because by the way, y'all are gonna go get divorced, you're gonna split up, your assets, after 30 years, you're gonna divide this stuff up, you're gonna figure out how to get, how to eat, all this kind of stuff.

• 46:56Dr. John Delony?

  Hopefully you have a job, you're gonna have an apartment, like everything in your life's gonna change. I'm not saying that's the wrong thing, I'm just saying every single component of your life's gonna change.

• 47:03Speaker 04

  Right.

• 47:04Dr. John Delony?

  You're gonna come home to an empty apartment and the things he did and said are still gonna be in the middle of your chest.

• 47:10Dr. John Delony?

  Whatever those things happen to be. Said he's not abusive, so I don't know what those things are, but they're there.

• 47:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:16Dr. John Delony?

  And so, at some point, you're gonna have to do the work anyway.

• 47:23Speaker 04

  Okay, but how do I go forward, you know, if I, I've been just endlessly debating all this in my head for honestly years.

• 47:33Dr. John Delony?

  Have you sat with a counselor and said, here's the problems in my life?

• 47:36Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 47:37Dr. John Delony?

  And what has your counselor said? Leave this man?

• 47:40Speaker 04

  Um, no, um, it hasn't been very helpful. Um, well, I've actually gone to two different ones, ones, one with him, one without him. Um, the one that I have done a little bit with him and then met separately with this counselor as well.

• 47:59Dr. John Delony?

  So he's been, he's been to therapy with you?

• 48:02Speaker 04

  Uh, very minimally. Um, and I've always had to make the appointment. I've always had to remind him of the appointment. Um, and then he usually fails to act on whatever assignment we were given in the appointment.

• 48:19Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, so here's what I'm hearing. Your daughter's been through absolute abject hell.

• 48:23Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 48:25Dr. John Delony?

  You've got a lump on a log as a husband.

• 48:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:29Dr. John Delony?

  And my guess is that there's 50 other things going on in your life, too. Is it just a short phone call?

• 48:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. Uh huh, yeah.

• 48:37Dr. John Delony?

  What I want you to do for maybe the first time in your life is to get out a piece of computer paper off a printer somewhere, just a blank sheet of paper.

• 48:45Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 48:46Dr. John Delony?

  And I want you to take a pen and not in a blaming way, please God, hear me say, it's not about blame.

• 48:55Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 48:56Dr. John Delony?

  It's about ownership. What can I control here?

• 49:03Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 49:06Dr. John Delony?

  And the beautiful thing is, is it is both humbling and limiting and terrifying because you will realize I cannot control what my husband does, period.

• 49:17Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 49:19Dr. John Delony?

  I cannot control whether my daughter stays sober or not. I don't have that kind of power. She's a 28-year-old about to be a new mother with extraordinary trauma.

• 49:33Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 49:34Dr. John Delony?

  In her ba, in her past.

• 49:38Dr. John Delony?

  And your other kids, and your financial situation, and whatever else has happened in the past.

• 49:46Dr. John Delony?

  What can I actually take ownership of right now?

• 49:53Dr. John Delony?

  If my husband's a lump on the log and he's not gonna change, I have a choice to make. This is my life. I'm gonna make him a cup of coffee. I'm gonna go about my days. He said some stuff 20 years ago, 10 years ago. I'm done carrying that around. I like him, he's annoying. I wish he'd lose some weight. I wish he would get a different job. But it is what it is, what it is.

• 50:13Dr. John Delony?

  Or leave.

• 50:18Dr. John Delony?

  But every day, there's been a pot on the stove of old stew, and you keep heating it back up. And then you just are like, ugh. You don't ever either eat it or just throw the stew out.

• 50:32Speaker 04

  Right.

• 50:33Dr. John Delony?

  So what I want you to do is to stop being a person who's receiving all of these external things. I can't do it because of this, and he won't do that, and she might do this, and then there's this thing over here, and then I don't like the dad of the new bit.

• 50:46Dr. John Delony?

  What can you take ownership of in your life? What can you control? Write that on a piece of paper.

• 50:54Dr. John Delony?

  And then begin to take action steps towards those very, very few things. Your thoughts and your actions, by the way, are all you got of what you can control, what you can impact next.

• 51:06Dr. John Delony?

  That's it. That's it. And it's so frustrating at how little it is, but it's also so freeing. This is all I can go do.

• 51:13Dr. John Delony?

  And before you file for divorce, have a friend sit down with you and go through finances, where you're gonna live, family stuff, inheritances, vacations, holidays, and see if the juice is worth the squeeze.

• 51:30Dr. John Delony?

  You're married 30 years, and he may have gone to counseling and been like, it was a waste of my time. Because we get home, she's just gonna X, Y, and be same, same, same, same, same. If you went to a solid therapist, and the therapist is like, hey, why don't you just treat each other nicer? And you're like, no, that's not it. Maybe. I don't know.

• 51:51Dr. John Delony?

  What can you control? What can you act on next? But if you want to leave your husband, don't put that on your daughter. And if you want to leave your husband, get some wisdom and guidance. But I'd recommend before you go do that, take in a few other steps to see if this is really what I want to do. And if maybe by changing my thoughts and my actions and my day-to-day interactions with people and my day-to-day behaviors, suddenly the light doesn't begin to come on in this home and in my own chest and in my own room and in my own life, without the light coming from the blast of blowing everything up. Just a thought. Thanks for calling, Don. We'll be right back.

• 52:35Dr. John Delony?

  This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. You've probably heard people talk about different kinds of flags and friendships and romantic relationships. You've got red flags and green flags and beige flags. Listen, it can be helpful to look for patterns or relationship behaviors that are unsafe. But to me, all those labels can distract from what's really important when you're trying to find a lasting, deep relationship. What's really important are your values and your potential partner's values and whether both of you are willing to wake up every day and choose to honor each other's values. But when you grow up in challenging environments or given how we are bombarded with everyone else's values all day, every day, it can be tough to even know what are my values?

• 53:20Dr. John Delony?

  What is important to me in a relationship and how will I show up to honor myself and love my partner? Forget all the different flags. Listen, ask yourself, how can I learn to know what I value? Therapy can help you figure out your values, learn what you're looking for in your relationships, and then decide your boundaries and non-negotiables. If you're thinking about starting therapy, try BetterHelp. BetterHelp is 100% online therapy that works with your schedule. To get started, just fill out a short online survey to get matched with a licensed therapist. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists at any time for no extra cost. So whether you're dating, married, building a friendship, or just working on yourself, do it with help from BetterHelp.

• 54:03Dr. John Delony?

  Visit betterhelp.com/deloney to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P, dot com slash deloney.

• 54:13Dr. John Delony?

  All right, Kelly, am I the problem? What you got?

• 54:16Speaker 05

  All right, this is from Dominique. She says, "My husband has never been a great gift giver. Birthdays, anniversaries, holidays, it always has me thinking of things for ideas for our family members and really, he really puts no thought into any of it. When he buys things for me, I don't feel like he puts any thought, or barely any, into the gifts he gets me. This year for Christmas, I gave him a list of about 10 gift ideas, all with various price ranges. The only thing from that list he got me was candy, and it wasn't even the kind I asked for. I thanked him for the gifts, he did, that he did get me, and I haven't said anything further. However, I'm quietly upset about his lack of effort or thoughtfulness. Do I have the right to be upset, or should I just be grateful that I got anything at all?"

• 55:00Dr. John Delony?

  You have the right to feel however you want to feel. And yes, you can be frustrated. The question is, are you gonna leave him? Probably not. Is this the 10th time you've given him a list and he hasn't bought on that list, and that's the only problem in your marriage? Then yes, move on with your life. Just go buy the things you want to buy and move on. If there's something deeper here, have that conversation. I don't know. A couple of years ago, there was like a glitch in the matrix, and anyway, I ended up on Christmas morning, I had nothing to open. Zero things. My family was all, it was just a thing, happened to a thing, and somebody thought that, I had zero. And it, I like was shockingly sad.

• 55:44Dr. John Delony?

  And I was just like, this is bumming me out. I'm a grown man. It was in my house that I paid for. So it wasn't a matter of need, or... And I, oh, my wife had got me some stuff, it just hadn't arrived yet. There was a storm and whatever. Anyway, it was just a, like, this sucks. It was. And it made me do some deep diving into, in your mid-40s, if you're still waiting for your mommy and your daddy to get you that right gift, stop, you're a grown man. And, yeah, it's a bummer to be on Christmas morning and not get the, like, get a present. And...

• 56:21Dr. John Delony?

  Like when my wife saw my face, like it has, it's, she orders stuff so early now because, because she knows like, I don't ever want that to happen, even though there's a perfectly good reason why the stuff she ordered didn't make it. Like, I don't want that to happen because that sucks, right? So, I don't know dudes, both and, but it's okay to be bummed out. You didn't get anything for Christmas, except for the candy that was the wrong candy. And also, I don't know. What do you think?

• 56:46Speaker 05

  I don't know if you remember, but I think it was after, it was my birthday or Mother's Day a couple of years ago, and I texted you, um, because I was, had that same thing where I like to bake, and everything that I'd gotten for Christmas, or my birthday, or whatever it was, was kitchen stuff. And I remember having my feelings hurt, because I thought, oh, so this is all like, y'all just go in there and bake me something, you know? And I've reached out to you and you said, well, have you ever told him? I was like, well, no, he should know. And you were like, no. And so this past year was the first year that I said something to my husband, and he said, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I just

• 57:29Speaker 05

  know you like to bake, and I thought these were things you'd want. And then I was like, he's right. They were things I wanted.

• 57:34Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, when he closes his eyes, the only time he ever sees Kelly smiles, when she's cooking something. So he was like, sweet.

• 57:41Speaker 05

  Whatever.

• 57:41Dr. John Delony?

  That when you're a little bit high. But other than that, like, it's like, then-

• 57:44Speaker 05

  Seriously.

• 57:45Dr. John Delony?

  And he doesn't buy drugs because he works at the police department. So, like, I'm gonna get her some, I, I get that.

• 57:49Speaker 05

  Right. And I did. And then he's like, and so he was, he was so upset and baffled that I thought this. And then I realized, well, yeah, because he knows I love doing that, and he's buying me something he loves, that he thinks I'll love. And the thing was, I did, like most of them. But this year, he, I, I asked him, I said, would it help you if I gave you a list? And he said tremendously. Now, the difference is, he got me almost everything on my list.

• 58:13Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 58:14Speaker 05

  And for him, it took the pressure off. I got what I wanted, and it was great. And he got me a few surprises, and it was great. Now, she may have to have another conversation. I had to go a layer deeper-

• 58:23Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 58:24Speaker 05

  And tell him why those gifts, quote unquote, hurt my feelings, which is stupid, but the idea of what I was feeling. And then he was like, oh, I'm so sorry, I never meant that. And then when he explained why he got me those things, I realized, oh, that's really sweet.

• 58:37Dr. John Delony?

  So-

• 58:38Speaker 05

  It was just a conversation.

• 58:39Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, the, I think the conversation here is not about the gifts. It's about- You're one of the rare men in the world that their wife gave you a roadmap to their heart. And you were like, nah, I'll take my own roads. Skittles. Right? And or whatever crappy candy he got. And I think that's the conversation. Because I almost would guarantee that happens across the board.

• 59:01Speaker 05

  Oh, I think it happens a lot.

• 59:03Dr. John Delony?

  Can you help with this? Sure. And you just shove the socks in the drawer and she's like, hey, it would really help me if you put it like this. Nah. Hey, can you help the kids get ready? They're fine. Like, if that, that conversation had that conversation. If this guy's perfect and he just sucks at gift giving, let it be. And let me say this, after that year happened to me, I have become incredibly empathetic to other people and gift giving. And I realized that I was just an Amazoner. Click on a few things and have them shipped to the house. The last couple of years, I've tried really hard to pay attention and it's made Christmas so much more fun, watching my wife and my kids light up because they're like, oh, you heard me, you so. It's become so fun that way, right? And so, I don't know, I'm glad it happened to me.

• 59:47Speaker 05

  There's a SNL, you could look it up, with Kristen Wiig, where she's the mom and it's on Christmas morning. And it's hilarious, the whole thing about her getting just a robe. It's worth watching. Yeah. But also, you know what? If you don't like what he gets you, tell him, hey, get me gift cards and let me go shopping.

• 1:00:02Dr. John Delony?

  That's right.

• 1:00:03Speaker 05

  Because I love to go shopping with other people's money. So tell him that.

• 1:00:05Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 1:00:06Speaker 05

  Make it easy.

• 1:00:07Dr. John Delony?

  And the gift you got me this year, just the coffee table book of all the Metallica songs, that made me felt seen and heard.

• 1:00:12Speaker 05

  I'm glad.

• 1:00:13Dr. John Delony?

  And also with you. And Ben, you rolled up with a lot of weed. I'm not a smoker, but I appreciate the sentiment. You're illegal. You're welcome. Call the cops. You're welcome. Bye.